WEBVTT - Open Line 0:00:00.000 --> 0:00:13.630 10 minutes after 11 o'clock and we open the lines. 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:19.040 I take your calls now, 118830702. I suppose the big 0:00:19.100 --> 0:00:23.860 story at the moment are the conversations around the constitutional 0:00:23.940 --> 0:00:34.210 court ruling and the ensuing unfortunate, sad, activities that have 0:00:34.250 --> 0:00:36.940 taken place in certain parts of our country, including Soweto 0:00:37.020 --> 0:00:42.340 and Durban. Soweto, 10 or 11 cars that have been 0:00:42.700 --> 0:00:50.379 burned in Durban, 14 cars that have been burned. And 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:54.880 I suppose the condemnation of the violence has been roundly 0:00:54.940 --> 0:01:04.259 condemned correctly. So I have also tried to say, understand 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:07.539 that violence as much as it ought to be condemned 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:12.319 that is also to be seen within the context of 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:15.160 a greater violence that is being inflicted on poor communities 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:22.779 here in South Africa by systemic and systematic governance failures 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:27.520 not only of our own government but governments outside our 0:01:27.580 --> 0:01:32.480 country who have made their citizens have to leave their 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:41.460 countries to come to South Africa in droves. And I 0:01:41.500 --> 0:01:45.479 suppose it's time for us to really have a conversation 0:01:45.540 --> 0:01:50.180 about this constitutional court ruling and understand it for what 0:01:50.220 --> 0:01:56.060 it is. And then also understand the understanding that has 0:01:56.080 --> 0:02:02.290 developed in South African communities, particularly black communities, about that 0:02:02.370 --> 0:02:12.380 Concord ruling. I think that the constitutional court is trying 0:02:12.460 --> 0:02:19.600 to do right here by the constitution and their understanding 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:25.380 of the constitution. They are calling out a government that 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:33.210 has not applied the requisite rigor in their application of 0:02:33.270 --> 0:02:41.470 the law and connected regulations in the application of that 0:02:41.570 --> 0:02:47.169 law as it pertains to its alignment to the constitution. 0:02:49.030 --> 0:02:49.230 Yeah. 0:02:50.650 --> 0:02:53.460 And I suppose that's the work of the constitutional court. 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:55.040 That's what they're supposed to do. If you're going to 0:02:55.060 --> 0:02:58.820 bring a case to the constitutional court, as has been 0:02:58.860 --> 0:03:01.839 brought by those who brought that case to the constitutional court, 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:07.040 that is the expectation. Let's show who in fact was the, 0:03:07.669 --> 0:03:10.410 commissioner of the case. I think somebody suggested it was 0:03:10.450 --> 0:03:12.550 the EFF and the ANC, but I'm not really sure 0:03:12.610 --> 0:03:16.230 if that is entirely true, but you will correct me 0:03:16.730 --> 0:03:20.590 as far as that is concerned. So the constitutional court 0:03:20.770 --> 0:03:24.610 makes a decision and brings out a ruling that says, 0:03:26.510 --> 0:03:31.609 we have a set of laws in this country that 0:03:32.330 --> 0:03:39.010 bind us to certain responsibilities, international responsibilities. as it pertains 0:03:39.050 --> 0:03:45.790 to migrants, asylum seekers, and refugee applicants. We cannot ignore 0:03:46.390 --> 0:03:51.960 our responsibilities with regards to that. And while there is 0:03:52.100 --> 0:03:56.660 evidence of the abuse of the immigration process as far 0:03:56.740 --> 0:04:04.010 as it pertains to asylum seekers and refugee statuses, and 0:04:04.050 --> 0:04:07.400 we understand perhaps that the Department of Home Affairs put 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:11.200 in certain regulations in order to deal with those abuses, 0:04:11.780 --> 0:04:17.400 they did not align those regulations and that law to 0:04:17.420 --> 0:04:21.240 the constitutional mandate that this country has. And that means 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:24.650 that you've got to give anybody who says that they 0:04:24.850 --> 0:04:30.370 want to apply for asylum the opportunity to apply for asylum. 0:04:31.070 --> 0:04:37.270 And you can't let You can't interrupt that process because 0:04:37.529 --> 0:04:44.130 of our commitment to international law, human rights, and so 0:04:44.170 --> 0:04:48.920 forth and so forth. So I suppose you can't fight 0:04:49.510 --> 0:04:55.300 the constitutional court, folks. They have done their work, at 0:04:55.339 --> 0:05:00.320 least according to what their mandate is. Happy to take 0:05:00.339 --> 0:05:05.360 your calls as far as that is concerned. But that 0:05:05.700 --> 0:05:10.340 the Department of Home Affairs did a half job here. 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:14.839 And they got caught out by the Constitutional Court. At 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:19.180 least those that called for this case to be investigated 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:26.870 by the Constitutional Court. At a legal level, at the 0:05:27.050 --> 0:05:31.090 cerebral level of all of this, all of this makes 0:05:31.290 --> 0:05:36.140 absolute sense. But there is, of course, the reality of 0:05:37.670 --> 0:05:40.550 the practical experience of all of these things. And that 0:05:40.589 --> 0:05:44.230 happens amongst the human beings, the people on the ground. 0:05:44.350 --> 0:05:51.330 Both the asylum seekers and refugees, applicants, and the citizens 0:05:51.370 --> 0:06:00.659 of this country. Both of whom have been treated very badly. 0:06:03.620 --> 0:06:05.919 The English is starting to run out. Can you see that? 0:06:11.170 --> 0:06:14.770 And in both sides, the residents of this country and 0:06:15.190 --> 0:06:19.690 the refugee sides or the foreign national sides, there are 0:06:19.730 --> 0:06:25.640 people who are abusing the system. But there are both sides, 0:06:25.740 --> 0:06:37.339 people that are looking for real solutions. that have real concerns. 0:06:44.250 --> 0:06:46.770 But South Africans have been betrayed by their own government 0:06:46.950 --> 0:06:52.880 because their own government has been cutting corners. As, of course, 0:06:52.890 --> 0:06:56.779 it has been discovered by this ruling by the Constitutional Court. 0:06:59.140 --> 0:07:02.539 It has been cutting corners even before the changing of 0:07:02.580 --> 0:07:09.890 the laws in 2020. Because the real reasons why people 0:07:09.930 --> 0:07:17.580 were here for asylum were no longer being properly interrogated by, 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:20.560 I think they called them the RSOs at Home Affairs. 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:28.700 People were being given asylum status, right? Some of them 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:32.300 graduated to refugee status. And we believe that some even 0:07:32.340 --> 0:07:37.660 became permanent residents and some even became naturalized South Africans 0:07:38.100 --> 0:07:46.800 on the basis of the inability of South African officials 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:51.400 at home affairs to do their work properly. And yes, 0:07:51.660 --> 0:07:56.310 on the other side, there were bribes. We know of 0:07:56.430 --> 0:07:59.250 the story of the bribes and and all of the 0:07:59.330 --> 0:08:02.150 other things that have taken place. But for that, I 0:08:02.210 --> 0:08:08.490 put the blame squarely on the South African officials. The 0:08:08.530 --> 0:08:11.390 fact of the matter is that the refugee space and 0:08:11.420 --> 0:08:16.540 the asylum-seeking space became abused. Not only did that space 0:08:16.620 --> 0:08:23.840 become abused, our borders were not being looked after properly, 0:08:23.940 --> 0:08:29.210 so they became progressively more and more porous such that 0:08:29.620 --> 0:08:31.720 people didn't see the reason why they need to go 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:36.260 through a port of entry. And some of the people 0:08:36.300 --> 0:08:38.740 that came into this country were people that came perhaps 0:08:38.780 --> 0:08:44.819 for legitimate reasons and others not. Some perhaps understood that 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:47.760 they were coming for economic reasons, but there was this 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:54.000 opportunity of becoming an asylum holder and then perhaps a 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:58.589 refugee holder. And by the way, if you are asylum 0:08:58.650 --> 0:09:01.569 seeker or a person who holds an asylum or a 0:09:01.950 --> 0:09:06.440 refugee document, you have the same economic status, exactly the 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:14.560 same economic status as a South African. There's the problem. 0:09:16.540 --> 0:09:23.500 There's the problem. Part of the conversation, folks, is we 0:09:23.540 --> 0:09:28.420 need to talk about what that did to the struggle 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:33.880 of South Africans for a decent wage, a struggle that 0:09:33.940 --> 0:09:38.530 was largely won already, but was undermined by the willingness 0:09:38.630 --> 0:09:42.570 of those who had entered the country illegally for economic reasons, 0:09:43.050 --> 0:09:47.590 not necessarily for political or religious reasons, but for economic reasons, 0:09:47.929 --> 0:09:51.319 who were willing to take the lesser wage. What did 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:59.949 that do for the economic space? In fact, I was 0:10:00.100 --> 0:10:07.220 listening to a preacher. I was preaching in a church. 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:21.910 Largely attended by Zimbabwean nationals. Who himself is a Zimbabwean national. 0:10:21.950 --> 0:10:28.190 Who was explaining this situation. To say that we. Speaking 0:10:28.250 --> 0:10:35.070 to his fellow Zimbabwean nationals. Have undermined. Through the fact 0:10:35.110 --> 0:10:38.630 that we are willing to take the lower wage. The 0:10:38.690 --> 0:10:47.010 struggle for a better wage by South African workers. That invariably. 0:10:48.660 --> 0:10:53.040 causes a lot of tension. Because that takes food out 0:10:53.080 --> 0:11:12.110 of somebody's mouth. And it makes people question our so-called brotherhood. So, 0:11:12.910 --> 0:11:15.890 having listened to all of that, I'm saying that we 0:11:15.910 --> 0:11:24.520 as South Africans need to perhaps In our anger, watch 0:11:24.620 --> 0:11:32.510 this process carefully. The minister in the presidency, Menchaven, he said, no, no, no, 0:11:32.590 --> 0:11:35.010 let's give it a chance, you know. But I understand 0:11:35.070 --> 0:11:37.929 South Africans who say we were betrayed by these very 0:11:37.990 --> 0:11:42.460 officials themselves to begin with. Why should we trust that 0:11:42.500 --> 0:11:46.260 they will do a proper job? When we are told, no, no, no, 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:48.100 this is going to reveal who should be here and 0:11:48.140 --> 0:11:50.180 who should not be here. Well, they betrayed us by 0:11:50.220 --> 0:11:52.980 not doing their job properly in the first place. Why 0:11:53.020 --> 0:11:58.199 should we believe them? That is the big gripe from 0:11:58.220 --> 0:12:04.450 South Africans with regards to this Concord Judgment. I disagree 0:12:04.490 --> 0:12:09.069 slightly with my guest, Prince Mtombeni, who says that this 0:12:09.530 --> 0:12:14.079 Concord Judgment implies that the South African Department of Home 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:17.940 Affairs must be capacitated. Well, the Department of Home Affairs 0:12:17.980 --> 0:12:23.840 has said that we don't have capacity. Expressly so. It's 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:29.880 part of their defense in the Concord case. Surely part 0:12:29.970 --> 0:12:32.610 of the remedy should have been in the same way 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:37.470 that the Constitutional Court said, we give the South African 0:12:37.530 --> 0:12:40.730 Parliament so many years to deal with the whole issue 0:12:40.790 --> 0:12:46.569 around the election rules and the fact that you may 0:12:46.630 --> 0:12:49.880 now elect an individual not necessarily a party to elect 0:12:49.980 --> 0:12:52.800 a president for you time was given for that whole 0:12:52.860 --> 0:12:56.920 thing to be capacitated surely part of the concord ruling 0:12:56.960 --> 0:13:02.620 should have been the department of home affairs will have 0:13:02.660 --> 0:13:05.570 to be capacitated in this way and this way and 0:13:05.610 --> 0:13:09.730 this way in order to meet the challenge of having 0:13:09.790 --> 0:13:14.969 to Deal with the documentation of People who are applying 0:13:15.070 --> 0:13:23.960 for For asylum and refugee status It should have been 0:13:24.030 --> 0:13:29.260 part of the ruling Because you can't Make a ruling 0:13:29.300 --> 0:13:40.100 that is practically Un You see the English is going 0:13:43.970 --> 0:13:49.350 That is practically unimplementable because you're just setting that whole 0:13:49.390 --> 0:13:55.520 system up for failure. The BMA is complaining to say, well, 0:13:56.559 --> 0:14:00.380 if the people that are here illegally can continue to 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:03.580 do so because the ruling says that whether you are 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.630 illegal or not, you must be given a chance to 0:14:07.130 --> 0:14:11.089 go and be heard by the Department of Home Affairs. 0:14:11.950 --> 0:14:15.000 I suppose it does become a little bit confusing for 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:18.520 people like the BMA? What is the police officer who 0:14:18.580 --> 0:14:22.120 finds somebody who they suspect is holding documents that are 0:14:22.140 --> 0:14:26.020 fraudulent due under these circumstances? I suppose that is what 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:30.010 Judge Obrele Duaba is trying to get answers from with 0:14:30.070 --> 0:14:32.950 regards to the efforts that they're putting in place to 0:14:32.990 --> 0:14:35.390 try and understand how do we deal with people that 0:14:35.430 --> 0:14:39.070 are in prison right now or at Lindela right now 0:14:39.170 --> 0:14:42.200 because they have been found to be in the country 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:47.680 illegally or with fraudulent refugee or asylum documents, or that 0:14:47.700 --> 0:14:49.980 their story just doesn't add up. What do we do 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:53.640 with them? And all of this is bound to create 0:14:53.820 --> 0:14:58.830 a major, major moment of confusion. And again, I say 0:14:58.850 --> 0:15:01.750 that that confusion is what is making South Africans angry. 0:15:07.730 --> 0:15:12.790 So I close my little montage by saying, My South 0:15:12.830 --> 0:15:21.330 African brothers and sisters Your anger is understandable Regardless of 0:15:21.370 --> 0:15:31.500 what anybody says Your anger is understandable But it might 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:41.220 not necessarily be permissible In all instances We must be 0:15:41.260 --> 0:15:51.420 tactical We must be strategic. Our anger against the government 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:59.930 that has betrayed us is justified. But we must be tactical. 0:16:02.510 --> 0:16:11.110 We must be strategic. We must also remember that us 0:16:11.170 --> 0:16:19.560 being pitted against other poor Africans is not innocent. There 0:16:19.740 --> 0:16:29.330 is a destabilization motive behind it. And I'll add and 0:16:29.370 --> 0:16:36.310 say that it's not always coming from the West. Neither 0:16:36.390 --> 0:16:41.860 is it always coming from the East. Sometimes it comes 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:46.080 from our very own leaders who benefit from the confusion. 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:59.710 Leaders who run economies that benefit from the confusion. And they, 0:17:00.850 --> 0:17:04.040 those leaders in the private sector and in the public 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:06.479 sector are not enemies because they are making money off 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:18.440 of our fighting. We need to understand that. South Africans 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:25.850 will tonight, and henceforth, as it has always been, been labeled, 0:17:25.869 --> 0:17:36.010 they'll be labeled, given names, which is sad and unacceptable. 0:17:41.450 --> 0:17:44.470 But it does remind me of the song that was 0:17:44.530 --> 0:17:53.800 sang in the struggle years by many generation of South Africans. 0:17:56.320 --> 0:18:09.000 A song that asks a very simple question. Senze. Senze nina. 0:18:14.270 --> 0:18:16.680 And in that song, there is a response and an answer, 0:18:16.700 --> 0:18:32.070 a reply to that question. I add a South African. 0:18:34.500 --> 0:18:37.520 Take your call straight after this. 702. 0:18:38.010 --> 0:18:42.770 Call Aubrey on 011-883-0702. 0:18:43.109 --> 0:18:46.210 Joseph is in Orange Farm. Hi, Joseph. 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:48.100 Hi, Aubrey. 0:18:48.140 --> 0:18:48.560 How are you? 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:50.080 I'm very well, thank you, sir. What's the norm? 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:50.960 Long time no speak. 0:18:51.140 --> 0:18:51.600 Thank you, sir. 0:18:53.460 --> 0:18:59.410 You know, I don't even know how to talk. Why 0:18:59.450 --> 0:19:03.090 do you think, Aubrey, that it so much easier for 0:19:03.130 --> 0:19:07.030 us as a country to be angry at the government 0:19:08.050 --> 0:19:11.990 right like you've had two guests now come on your 0:19:12.030 --> 0:19:17.629 show and even yourself you know like even the reason 0:19:17.670 --> 0:19:19.949 I'm calling you is when you started you know you 0:19:19.990 --> 0:19:24.050 had this very emotional sort of epilogue that you're making 0:19:24.109 --> 0:19:27.950 and you know so I could feel. 0:19:27.790 --> 0:19:29.150 That anger you know. 0:19:31.030 --> 0:19:38.780 And my pushback or my comment, which has always been 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:40.660 the comment that I make every time I'm called here, 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:46.570 is that we as a country feel that the reason 0:19:46.609 --> 0:19:50.600 the country isn't working is because the government... is corrupt 0:19:50.619 --> 0:19:53.220 which is true the government is corrupt and the government 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:56.000 isn't doing their job this is just a fact right 0:19:56.619 --> 0:19:59.139 but so let's assume for a moment let's take the 0:19:59.180 --> 0:20:02.920 department the department of home affairs let's assume the department 0:20:02.940 --> 0:20:06.670 of home affairs worked right and It was capacitated. It 0:20:07.010 --> 0:20:12.250 did everything that was necessary for it to function correctly, right? 0:20:12.770 --> 0:20:16.969 It processed the asylum. The person comes in, right? The 0:20:17.030 --> 0:20:20.730 law says that a person can come into South Africa 0:20:21.150 --> 0:20:27.710 without any documentation, without any nothing, right? And the Department 0:20:27.910 --> 0:20:32.139 of Home Affairs has to judge that. the validity, the 0:20:32.180 --> 0:20:35.800 veracity of the claim of asylum of this person, essentially 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:41.570 based on what they're saying, right? The home affairs says, no, 0:20:41.710 --> 0:20:45.669 you do not qualify, right? The person, what does the 0:20:45.690 --> 0:20:52.160 person do? They appeal, right? And the expert you had said, 0:20:52.590 --> 0:20:55.850 they can first appeal within the Department of Home Affairs. 0:20:56.150 --> 0:20:59.830 They say that also fails, right? And then you push 0:20:59.850 --> 0:21:01.629 them and say, and then what happens at the end 0:21:01.670 --> 0:21:03.189 of it? And the expert says, no, no, no, they 0:21:03.210 --> 0:21:07.700 can also have other avenues. They can go to our courts, right? 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:15.709 So the asylum seeker goes to our courts. And when 0:21:15.730 --> 0:21:20.040 you think about it structurally, When an asylum seeker goes 0:21:20.180 --> 0:21:23.300 and protests a decision made by the department, it is 0:21:23.340 --> 0:21:26.179 the department that has to go defend itself. It has 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:33.440 to go defend its decisions, right? So imagine then that 0:21:33.460 --> 0:21:38.770 the department is working correctly, right? And people understand that 0:21:41.350 --> 0:21:45.300 when the department says, No, you do not qualify for 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:50.040 asylum seeking. You can always just go to court. And 0:21:50.140 --> 0:21:53.430 when you fail in one court, you can always take 0:21:53.450 --> 0:21:54.970 it up to a higher court and a higher court 0:21:55.030 --> 0:21:56.609 and a higher court, all the way up to the 0:21:56.930 --> 0:22:04.650 constitutional court, right? So how can we expect that... A department, right? 0:22:04.830 --> 0:22:08.870 For the department to function, right, it has to have authority, right? 0:22:09.090 --> 0:22:11.429 It has to have the latitude to do its job. 0:22:11.770 --> 0:22:14.810 It has to have domain control over the job that 0:22:15.050 --> 0:22:20.129 they're supposed to do. It has to have jurisdiction. The 0:22:20.150 --> 0:22:25.199 jurisdiction of home affairs is citizenry. It is matters of citizenship. 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:28.400 It is matters of asylum seeking, right? 0:22:28.420 --> 0:22:28.580 Yeah. 0:22:29.170 --> 0:22:32.350 Yet, and for it to perform its job, it has 0:22:32.369 --> 0:22:36.090 to have the latitude to perform that job. But when 0:22:36.190 --> 0:22:41.150 it performs its job, its decisions that it makes, that 0:22:41.210 --> 0:22:43.919 it has the authority to make, can be overturned by 0:22:43.980 --> 0:22:47.580 a court. Do you see the problem there? 0:22:48.220 --> 0:22:50.180 Yeah, which is why I asked. 0:22:51.300 --> 0:22:54.600 So, for instance, take the situation with Chidima, right? 0:22:54.619 --> 0:22:54.689 Yes. 0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:59.520 Chidema, the department did its job and said, Chidema, because 0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:03.619 of whatever reason, is not declared a person or an 0:23:03.680 --> 0:23:06.109 undesirable person. She's not allowed to be in South Africa. 0:23:06.750 --> 0:23:09.370 So what did Chidema do? She gets into the country illegally. 0:23:09.990 --> 0:23:13.190 The department continues to do their job. They say, no, no, no, 0:23:13.530 --> 0:23:15.189 you are not allowed in South Africa. We're going to 0:23:15.210 --> 0:23:19.560 deport you. That's their job. That's the mandate that they're given. 0:23:19.900 --> 0:23:23.500 That's their domain, right? So why is Chidema still in 0:23:23.540 --> 0:23:23.940 the country? 0:23:25.270 --> 0:23:31.230 Because, and this doesn't make it right, but because we 0:23:31.650 --> 0:23:38.620 are a constitutional democracy. In other words, above all other laws, 0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:46.320 above all other systems, above all other capabilities, the constitution 0:23:46.460 --> 0:23:49.780 has the right or it trumps all of those things. 0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:57.879 And what that means is that even if the right 0:23:58.020 --> 0:24:02.670 thing is done by a department, if it is not 0:24:02.830 --> 0:24:09.570 done according and in line with the Constitution, if the 0:24:09.710 --> 0:24:16.320 processes that it has followed in arriving at a particular conclusion, 0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:20.580 even if that conclusion is considered to be right, if 0:24:20.660 --> 0:24:27.730 the process to getting there was unconstitutional, unconstitutional, the constitution 0:24:28.050 --> 0:24:32.060 then trumps and can override that decision. 0:24:32.490 --> 0:24:37.740 No, no, you see, that's where the distinction, for me, 0:24:37.859 --> 0:24:40.580 I feel like people miss. That's not the point I 0:24:40.600 --> 0:24:45.140 was bringing up. We, as a country, are saying that 0:24:45.380 --> 0:24:47.409 the department is supposed to do its job. 0:24:48.050 --> 0:24:48.430 Right. 0:24:49.490 --> 0:24:51.609 And we expect them to do their job, but they 0:24:51.630 --> 0:24:55.010 don't have the power to do their job. You are 0:24:55.030 --> 0:25:02.470 saying that I'm not saying that. 0:25:02.369 --> 0:25:06.060 That is right. I am saying that the rules of 0:25:06.100 --> 0:25:08.619 the game at the moment, whether they are right or wrong, 0:25:08.960 --> 0:25:12.540 are that the constitution is the supreme law. 0:25:13.740 --> 0:25:13.900 Yes. 0:25:16.180 --> 0:25:21.230 But yet we expect departments that do not control the constitution. 0:25:21.290 --> 0:25:23.969 In order for the country to work, the people who 0:25:24.030 --> 0:25:26.390 are making it work need to have the authority. But 0:25:26.650 --> 0:25:28.889 the people whose job it is to make the. 0:25:28.890 --> 0:25:31.040 Authority do not have the power. 0:25:30.880 --> 0:25:34.760 To do it. Yet we are angry at the government. 0:25:34.780 --> 0:25:36.680 We are angry that the government is not doing their job. 0:25:36.700 --> 0:25:40.220 We are angry that our country isn't working. They actually 0:25:40.240 --> 0:25:42.900 do not have the power. Even if they were working, 0:25:43.400 --> 0:25:45.080 they do not have the power. 0:25:46.700 --> 0:25:50.210 But here's the thing, Joseph, and by the way, I 0:25:51.450 --> 0:25:55.450 am sentimentally with you. Here's the argument that is going 0:25:55.490 --> 0:26:00.610 to be brought to bear in our protest. That the 0:26:01.790 --> 0:26:07.600 process to arriving at a particular decision which you and 0:26:07.700 --> 0:26:12.700 i would consider to be the department working must also 0:26:12.850 --> 0:26:16.630 be according to the constitution i i usually say it's 0:26:16.670 --> 0:26:18.850 like it's. 0:26:17.890 --> 0:26:20.530 I understand no no i understand i understand what you're 0:26:20.570 --> 0:26:23.280 saying but there has to be an assumption that it 0:26:23.300 --> 0:26:26.490 wasn't There has to be an assumption that the decision 0:26:26.770 --> 0:26:29.310 taken by the department is wrong. 0:26:29.550 --> 0:26:31.669 Well, that's what this is. 0:26:31.730 --> 0:26:33.350 I hear you. 0:26:33.670 --> 0:26:38.030 So the Concord is saying that. The Concord is saying 0:26:38.090 --> 0:26:40.080 that the amendments made in 2022 or in 2020 by 0:26:40.130 --> 0:26:47.449 the government to try and curb The issue of the 0:26:47.490 --> 0:26:53.909 misuse of the asylum and refugee issue are understandable, but 0:26:53.950 --> 0:26:55.270 they were not constitutional. 0:26:56.470 --> 0:26:58.320 No, no, no, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm 0:26:58.340 --> 0:27:03.780 talking about Chidima, right? Chidima, the department did their job. 0:27:03.920 --> 0:27:07.040 They said Chidima, because of reason one, two, three, four, 0:27:07.340 --> 0:27:10.540 she cannot be in the country, right? They did their job, 0:27:10.760 --> 0:27:13.940 yet she is still in the country. Because you went 0:27:13.980 --> 0:27:18.090 to the court and the court had to assume that 0:27:18.150 --> 0:27:23.909 the decision that was taken by people who have to 0:27:23.950 --> 0:27:27.730 do their job, there has to be like this acceptance 0:27:28.109 --> 0:27:31.560 that if a department is tasked to do a job, 0:27:31.960 --> 0:27:35.240 then that job can be understood to have been wrong. 0:27:35.260 --> 0:27:38.520 I hear you. Joseph, I hear you. And I don't 0:27:38.560 --> 0:27:41.369 know if you've been listening to other programs where I... 0:27:41.820 --> 0:27:46.180 raise that very issue myself. But those are the rules 0:27:46.260 --> 0:27:48.460 of the game that we find ourselves in. Now, I 0:27:48.500 --> 0:27:53.550 don't necessarily like those rules. And I hear you don't 0:27:53.590 --> 0:27:56.550 like those rules. But those are the rules that we 0:27:56.730 --> 0:28:00.450 are confined in at the moment. 0:28:00.869 --> 0:28:05.090 And there's a belief that the rules were made by 0:28:05.109 --> 0:28:07.690 the government and the government has the power to change 0:28:07.710 --> 0:28:09.010 those rules. 0:28:09.030 --> 0:28:12.440 No, that's not the belief. The belief is to say 0:28:12.500 --> 0:28:19.590 that these rules are made by the constitutional order that 0:28:20.330 --> 0:28:23.630 made the constitution become a real thing in 1996. It 0:28:27.710 --> 0:28:31.910 wasn't the government that made it. It was a group 0:28:31.970 --> 0:28:36.490 of elected leaders who put together a constitution with which 0:28:36.550 --> 0:28:39.480 they would then govern. No, no, no. 0:28:39.740 --> 0:28:45.740 Princey Tombeni previously said that in one of the cases, 0:28:46.700 --> 0:28:49.590 the way she put it was that our government signed 0:28:49.650 --> 0:28:51.510 us into this international. 0:28:50.970 --> 0:28:51.530 Law that. 0:28:53.090 --> 0:28:57.130 Bear us with this obligation of taking in refugees. 0:28:57.250 --> 0:29:02.660 Post the constitution. It was the constitution that gave our 0:29:02.740 --> 0:29:05.060 government the power to sign those documents. 0:29:06.830 --> 0:29:11.280 And then the argument then is that the government has 0:29:11.400 --> 0:29:14.920 the power now to withdraw us from those agreements. 0:29:14.960 --> 0:29:15.140 Sure. 0:29:16.270 --> 0:29:21.250 That's not true. And somebody would challenge that and say, 0:29:21.550 --> 0:29:25.930 but the Constitution says something else. I hear your frustration, Joseph. 0:29:26.310 --> 0:29:26.790 I hear you. 0:29:27.570 --> 0:29:32.410 Why is it that then we have this propensity to 0:29:32.510 --> 0:29:36.330 obsess over the government? I understand the government isn't working, right? 0:29:36.390 --> 0:29:36.750 I'm not. 0:29:38.500 --> 0:29:40.000 Like, not aware of that. 0:29:40.060 --> 0:29:40.480 I see it. 0:29:40.640 --> 0:29:43.780 I live it, too, right? But we are angry at 0:29:43.820 --> 0:29:47.090 the government, I feel, because it's just easier. It's just 0:29:47.290 --> 0:29:50.090 easier for us to be angry at the things that 0:29:50.130 --> 0:29:52.450 we see, right? You look at the Madlana Commission, you 0:29:52.490 --> 0:29:54.870 look at all the corruption that is happening, but even 0:29:54.910 --> 0:29:58.070 if our state... Even if the government did work, I 0:29:58.290 --> 0:30:04.560 feel like the problem is that we love the romance 0:30:04.710 --> 0:30:07.780 of our constitution, right? There's this word that is often 0:30:07.920 --> 0:30:10.520 used every time people are angry about what is happening 0:30:10.540 --> 0:30:13.980 in our country, that we are a constitutional democracy, right? 0:30:14.080 --> 0:30:16.980 It's very romantic. It fills you all up with this 0:30:17.080 --> 0:30:20.670 gooey emotions, but I feel like it's a manipulative term. I.... 0:30:22.960 --> 0:30:26.580 I'm happy to quibble with you with that. But one 0:30:26.620 --> 0:30:28.360 of the things that I said right at the beginning 0:30:29.680 --> 0:30:35.770 was that we can have these cerebral conversations about government 0:30:35.830 --> 0:30:44.070 versus constitution versus the separation of powers debate versus the 0:30:44.890 --> 0:30:51.730 judiciary versus the executive. We can have those conversations. The 0:30:51.750 --> 0:30:58.360 man in the street experiences all of that as the government. Right? 0:30:58.760 --> 0:31:03.780 So I'm happy to have that distinction with you and 0:31:03.840 --> 0:31:06.660 say I agree with you that we need to really 0:31:06.740 --> 0:31:11.100 have a conversation about constitutional reform. I'm happy to. But 0:31:11.380 --> 0:31:12.220 the fact of the matter. 0:31:12.240 --> 0:31:15.210 Up until the men in the streets understand that it 0:31:15.250 --> 0:31:18.890 is not the government that is the problem, right? Another, 0:31:19.010 --> 0:31:20.870 my last point that I wanted to make was that 0:31:23.340 --> 0:31:26.280 One of the things that you and I have always 0:31:26.300 --> 0:31:28.500 talked about was that we keep being told that we 0:31:28.520 --> 0:31:32.000 have like this wonderful constitution. Oh my God, yet no 0:31:32.120 --> 0:31:36.300 other country follows it, right? And a couple of weeks ago, 0:31:36.420 --> 0:31:40.570 I made like this revelation and I found some information 0:31:40.610 --> 0:31:44.770 about how we got to the situation that we are in, right? 0:31:45.710 --> 0:31:48.930 The apartheid government, when the apartheid government ran South Africa, 0:31:50.170 --> 0:31:53.670 the power, you see the power that sits with the 0:31:53.710 --> 0:31:59.290 Constitutional Court, right? People keep saying the Constitutional Court's job 0:31:59.330 --> 0:32:03.590 is to interpret the law. The Constitutional Court doesn't just 0:32:03.650 --> 0:32:06.560 interpret the law. They actually make the law. But the 0:32:06.600 --> 0:32:10.780 problem with the Constitution is that constitutions are incomplete. They 0:32:10.800 --> 0:32:13.920 are vague. So at some point, someone has to use 0:32:13.960 --> 0:32:17.580 their own personal judgment to determine what the Constitution must be. 0:32:17.620 --> 0:32:19.240