Speaker 1: Jacob Musha Quaie in for Peppa Hudson. Right up until
Speaker 1: three pm. We're getting into our family Matters feature and
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier can a narcissist really change? And that's
Speaker 1: the conversation we're going to have. And the reason why
Speaker 1: we're having this conversation is because there's a different type
Speaker 1: of therapy that Sean Diddy Combs's partner Cassie had to do,
Speaker 1: and that was called neurofeedback. It's a very different type
Speaker 1: of therapy and the word narcissist has been used a
Speaker 1: lot in this P did He trial and we thought
Speaker 1: we'd get a professional and Kerry Rudman, who is a
Speaker 1: neurofeedback specialist and founder of brain Harmonics, joins us. So, Kerry,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. Let's start with
Speaker 1: you telling us about brain harmonics. What is that and
Speaker 1: what does your job feature as a neurofeedback specialist.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for letting me be here. So,
Speaker 2: brainer Monics is neurofeedback.
Speaker 3: We use EEG lectropes, we put on different spots on
Speaker 3: your head and we basically gathering brain wave data. We
Speaker 3: can see where your brain fetches information or if you
Speaker 3: have what we call an imbalance, meaning your brain's going
Speaker 3: a long way around.
Speaker 2: To do something.
Speaker 3: And we look at everything that makes us up as
Speaker 3: human beings. We look at traumas that we've been through
Speaker 3: throughout our life and the coping strategies that throws us
Speaker 3: into stress levels, depression levels, anxiety levels, and then also
Speaker 3: how you focus and concentrates. So it gives us a
Speaker 3: lot of information about the workings of our brain. And
Speaker 3: when we do in your feedback sessions, we basically play
Speaker 3: your brain back to you as sound, but we do
Speaker 3: it in real time where your brain's hearing itself in
Speaker 3: one ten thousandth of a second. And because it's so quick,
Speaker 3: it's like your brain can see itself in a mirror
Speaker 3: and in that way it can learn to self regulate.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's pretty interesting. Now, what about narcism. I think
Speaker 1: we need to get into that and how does neurofeedback
Speaker 1: therapy help with narcisism? And let's define as narcissism as well,
Speaker 1: because a lot of people just use it loosely.
Speaker 3: Sure it really is being thrown around a light, but
Speaker 3: it does need to be diagnosed. People who are narcissists
Speaker 3: have a very grandiose sense of self importance, They need
Speaker 3: excessive admiration. They really do lack empathy and they don't
Speaker 3: see anything that they're doing is wrong. So there's a
Speaker 3: lot of gas lighting going on with a narcissist where
Speaker 3: they exploit people emotionally and physically and in every other way.
Speaker 3: So the hard part about treating an actual a narcissist
Speaker 3: in what we do and in almost every other therapy
Speaker 3: that there is out there, is that because they can't
Speaker 3: see themselves, it's very hard for them to want to change.
Speaker 3: You have to have some kind of empathy and accountability
Speaker 3: to make any change in your life. Victims of narcissists
Speaker 3: we see a lot more than narcissists themselves because they
Speaker 3: don't think that there's anything wrong with them.
Speaker 1: And then the warnings signs for a narcissist, you could
Speaker 1: be possibly living with a narcissist. What are the main
Speaker 1: things to look out for?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, So you know, the best explanation that we that
Speaker 3: I look at is always sorry, it's always looking at
Speaker 3: the symptoms of being gaslighted. So if there's somebody who's gaslighting,
Speaker 3: you're going to feel there's going to be a lot
Speaker 3: of lying, denial about what's going on. Your feelings will
Speaker 3: be trivialized. The victim of the narcissists often questions their
Speaker 3: own sanity. They start feeling like either their memory or
Speaker 3: their sanity isn't correct, and they start trusting in the
Speaker 3: narcissists feelings more than their own.
Speaker 2: So really look out for those.
Speaker 3: And if you feel like you're going mad and you
Speaker 3: have a lot of self doubt and you question it
Speaker 3: all the time, maybe it's time for you to have
Speaker 3: a look at your own brain to see how you're
Speaker 3: coping with it. How is your self esteem and your
Speaker 3: self confidence and are you feeling happy within yourself?
Speaker 1: Now this is where we will of course talk a
Speaker 1: little more about the neurofeedback therapy. How important is the
Speaker 1: neurofeedback therapy versus the traditional method of therapy where you
Speaker 1: sit in a session with a therapist for an hour
Speaker 1: and you sort of unload and unpack your current life situation.
Speaker 4: So, you know, I.
Speaker 3: Feel like talk therapy has purpose and it really does
Speaker 3: make a very very profound impact. From neurotherapy point of view,
Speaker 3: I feel like if your brain is hardwired into depression,
Speaker 3: for instance, talking about things doesn't necessarily.
Speaker 2: Change the hard wiring. When your a feedback.
Speaker 3: Will change how your brain is firing and change the
Speaker 3: neuropathways so that when you do talk therapy after that,
Speaker 3: you can do it from a much better place.
Speaker 1: So they basically work hand in hand. You can't do
Speaker 1: the one without doing the other.
Speaker 3: No, No, you can definitely do them separately. Doing them
Speaker 3: hand in hand does help a lot of people. There
Speaker 3: are people who don't. I need both, and they definitely
Speaker 3: both work within their own rights as well. I feel
Speaker 3: like if we're doing the neurofeedback, we're doing the hard ware,
Speaker 3: and if you do have the therapist that you're talking to,
Speaker 3: you also doing the software at the same time, and
Speaker 3: it definitely is a better option.
Speaker 1: Now take me through the neuro feedback session. What does
Speaker 1: it entail and how long does it go on for?
Speaker 2: It depends on your age.
Speaker 3: It can be anything from one for ours per session,
Speaker 3: well per day, I should say, true, And the amount
Speaker 3: of hours needed would depend on the imbalances that each
Speaker 3: person has in their brain.
Speaker 2: So sometimes they are combinations of different imbalances.
Speaker 3: And if we only teach the brain how to distress
Speaker 3: or how to feel happy, but we don't teach a
Speaker 3: brain how to let go of locking into a situation,
Speaker 3: it's not fulfilling the whole pictures, like kind of putting
Speaker 3: a band aid on the problem. So there's oftentimes where
Speaker 3: we have to do things in connection with each other.
Speaker 3: So sometimes it can go all the way up to
Speaker 3: any four hours that a person needs, and sometimes they
Speaker 3: might not need fourteen.
Speaker 2: But again it always depends on each imbalance.
Speaker 1: So for us to begin a session, for instance, that
Speaker 1: we'd have to go through a proper like an assessment
Speaker 1: first and then you'd be able to judge how long
Speaker 1: one's session would be.
Speaker 3: Absolutely the assessment is an hour, and it's like taking
Speaker 3: a photo of your brain. You can see the pathways
Speaker 3: in real time.
Speaker 2: So we can.
Speaker 3: See certain things throughout people's entire life, and we can
Speaker 3: see some things for at least the last four months,
Speaker 3: like sleep patterns.
Speaker 2: We can see at least in the last formats how
Speaker 2: you've been sleeping.
Speaker 3: But that gives us, it's a roadmap that shows us
Speaker 3: exactly what needs to be balanced, and from that we
Speaker 3: can work it out pretty much immediately of what that
Speaker 3: person will need in terms of training.
Speaker 1: We're chatting now to Kerrie Rudman. She's on the Zoom
Speaker 1: line and she's telling us about neurofeedback. She's a neurofeedback
Speaker 1: specialist and founder of Brain Harmonics. Now, carry I want
Speaker 1: to go back to how we started this conversation based
Speaker 1: on the current P did he trial that we're seeing
Speaker 1: played out in courts in New York, and how P
Speaker 1: did He's behavior obviously affected his long term partner at
Speaker 1: the time, Cassie Ventura. And where I want to go
Speaker 1: with this conversation is Cassie knew she was in a
Speaker 1: tricky place or a very or a very toxic place.
Speaker 1: But how does somebody who's under the spell of a narcissist?
Speaker 1: If I can say that, how do you navigate that?
Speaker 1: And how do you get out of that? Especially for
Speaker 1: the people who have to deal with narcissistic husbands or wives,
Speaker 1: or narcissistic bosses or narcissistic business partners? How does one
Speaker 1: navigate or how does one identify that there's an issue?
Speaker 1: And I want to get out?
Speaker 2: So it's such an amazing question.
Speaker 3: Then you know the story about the frog that gets
Speaker 3: boiled in the putt, and he doesn't know that he's
Speaker 3: been boiled until the water is so hot that that's
Speaker 3: the point he wants to get out that's kind of
Speaker 3: what's happening with the narcissist is they don't just jump
Speaker 3: in and start manipulating and you know, lacking empathy and
Speaker 3: showing you all of.
Speaker 2: Themselves straight away.
Speaker 3: It's a bit of a slow process and as soon
Speaker 3: as they see that they get away with something they do,
Speaker 3: they step that up. So it is gradual and then
Speaker 3: all of a sudden you're in it and you can't
Speaker 3: figure out how to get out. So there are ways
Speaker 3: to get help, and it depends on the circumstance. Obviously,
Speaker 3: if it's employment, you need to start looking for other alternatives.
Speaker 3: If it's a relationship and the children involves, it's going
Speaker 3: to be a lot harder. But it's very important to
Speaker 3: talk to people. You know, if it's somebody in your family,
Speaker 3: you talk to other members of the family and see
Speaker 3: who is in your group that can help you to
Speaker 3: navigate through it. The other alternative is to run, just
Speaker 3: run as fast as you can get away from them.
Speaker 1: Now, the reason why I actually asked that is because
Speaker 1: I wanted to lead into the next question, which takes
Speaker 1: us back to this neurofeedback therapy. There was a line
Speaker 1: I read there that it works very closely with helping
Speaker 1: the brain to move out of chronic fight or flight patterns. Now,
Speaker 1: that for me is such a critical part of what
Speaker 1: we're having in this conversation where you're saying, if you
Speaker 1: find yourself in a situation where you don't know what
Speaker 1: to do or what your next move should be, then
Speaker 1: flight it is. Then you, then you run, you you
Speaker 1: better get out of it. But how do you then
Speaker 1: overcome that once you've experienced neurofeedback therapy the idea that
Speaker 1: when something's wrong, I just leave and I run away.
Speaker 1: Does neurofeedback therapy change that?
Speaker 2: It really does.
Speaker 3: So if you are in fight or flights, what happens
Speaker 3: is your brain is so such an amazing tool. If
Speaker 3: you go through situations that are traumatic and that make
Speaker 3: you feel really angry or make you feel like the
Speaker 3: world's not safe, which Cassie definitely did as well as
Speaker 3: many of the other victims, it's your brain will generate
Speaker 3: pathway at the right temple lobe which will throw you
Speaker 3: into fight or flight as a coping strategy. So people
Speaker 3: who are stuck in fight or flight don't plan that
Speaker 3: that's how they're going to react to things in the world.
Speaker 3: It becomes just a norm for your own brain to
Speaker 3: survive in the world. So what happens is when we
Speaker 3: do neuro feedback, we teach your brain how to self
Speaker 3: regulate and how to calm that fight to flight down.
Speaker 3: We've basically shown your brain that it's okay and you're safe.
Speaker 3: You can let go of those coping strategies and over time,
Speaker 3: that's why we do multiple sessions and we repeat certain things.
Speaker 3: It teaches the brain that you're safe and it's okay
Speaker 3: and that threat that was they previously has actually disappeared
Speaker 3: and you can relax again, and then.
Speaker 2: That becomes your new normal.
Speaker 3: So there's not a lot of trying that has to
Speaker 3: be done in terms of neuro feedback. You just suddenly
Speaker 3: notice that something will happen and you reacting much calmer
Speaker 3: than you ever did before that you feel a lot
Speaker 3: more relaxed about things that are going on around you.
Speaker 1: Carrie, in a situation like the P Did scenario P
Speaker 1: Diddy case, at the moment P Did himself probably doesn't
Speaker 1: have the willingness to change. But in general, somebody who
Speaker 1: is who has narcissistic traits or who is deemed to
Speaker 1: be a narcissist, would they be able to get any
Speaker 1: positive feedback from this neurofeedback therapy. I'm trying to say,
Speaker 1: can a narcissist actually change?
Speaker 3: So it's a very hard question to answer, and I
Speaker 3: think more than anything, you need to want to change.
Speaker 3: To change, you have to be able to see some
Speaker 3: of what you're doing, even if you can't see all
Speaker 3: of it, because the reasons why they can't see themselves
Speaker 3: is as soon as they go there and they admit
Speaker 3: to what they're doing that's wrong, they have to accept
Speaker 3: that part of their personality which was developed through maybe
Speaker 3: traumas or lars or being neglected or whatever trauma they
Speaker 3: went through. So it's there to protect them and when
Speaker 3: they lower that, it's going to make them vulnerable. But
Speaker 3: if somebody is willing to be vulnerable and willing to
Speaker 3: look at themselves, they can change. It isn't a quick
Speaker 3: process for the narcissists themselves. It's going to take time.
Speaker 3: And even if a narcissist couldn't see themselves and they
Speaker 3: came and did neuro feedback sessions, it would still help
Speaker 3: them on many of the other levels. Because as soon
Speaker 3: as you feel like the world's less of a threat,
Speaker 3: you don't have to move into your coping strategies as quickly.
Speaker 3: So it makes you a better person, but maybe not
Speaker 3: the perfect person. It just makes you a little bit
Speaker 3: better than you were because you feel more comfortable and
Speaker 3: it ease and your self confidence and self esteem is
Speaker 3: better and maybe you're feeling happier less depressed.
Speaker 1: Now, Carrie, here's a question that's come in. Is it
Speaker 1: possible for neurofeedback therapy to help somebody who is autistic.
Speaker 3: Yes, we've had a lot of autistic clients. So again,
Speaker 3: it doesn't change the autism. I mean, it won't take
Speaker 3: it away that you're not autistic anymore. But it gives
Speaker 3: the autistic person a lot better skills. So it can
Speaker 3: teach them, firstly how to sleep with quality sleep. It
Speaker 3: can help them to be calmer when they're taking information
Speaker 3: in so that they take more in.
Speaker 2: We've had some cases where.
Speaker 3: It's just been phenomenal and the child. Often we train
Speaker 3: autistic children, so I'm using a child as an example.
Speaker 3: But the child will change dramatically and learning will change
Speaker 3: and speech can change, and sometimes it's a slower process.
Speaker 3: It depends on where they are on the autism spectrum.
Speaker 4: Good afternoon, Yes, I had a friend who was a
Speaker 4: complete and utter narcissist of note, and in the end,
Speaker 4: I was the one who decided this person had to
Speaker 4: get out my life because they are vicious, they vindictive.
Speaker 4: There was a ceter of rules for her, no rules.
Speaker 4: There was a set of no rules for her, and
Speaker 4: a ceter rules for everybody else. They are self centered,
Speaker 4: they are, and everybody has to pan to their whims.
Speaker 4: So if you are in a relationship with a person
Speaker 4: like that, or you have a friend like that, my
Speaker 4: aunt says, get rid of them today because they are
Speaker 4: honestly not worth the spit on the floor. They really aren't.
Speaker 4: And like the lady was saying, there's no accountability for anything.
Speaker 4: They don't. They think whatever they do is completely right.
Speaker 4: Donald Trump is a narcissist. He is a full on narcissist. Yeah,
Speaker 4: so get them out of your life today. Michael Simon Staner.
Speaker 1: Kerry Rudman, a neuro feedback therapist, joins us now on
Speaker 1: Cape Talk in Our Family Matters part of the show. Kerry,
Speaker 1: that was a very interesting voice note we got there
Speaker 1: from Michael saying Donald Trump is a perfect person to
Speaker 1: describe as a narcissist. Is that something that you would
Speaker 1: agree with.
Speaker 2: Oh, he is. He's the epitome of a narcissist. He
Speaker 2: really is.
Speaker 3: E will say a certain thing and then he'll deny it,
Speaker 3: or he will change the topic and blame it on
Speaker 3: the journalist who're saying something wrong. So wherever they can
Speaker 3: tribualize experiences or feelings or anything like that and then
Speaker 3: often project whatever it is onto the other person's that
Speaker 3: they look good.
Speaker 2: That is a sign of a narcissist.
Speaker 3: I think Donald Trump would definitely for the Today category.
Speaker 1: So then when it comes to neurofeedback therapy, for anyone
Speaker 1: who's hearing this conversation for the first time, where do
Speaker 1: I go to get more information about it?
Speaker 3: Our website is Brainharmonics dot co, dot zda and all
Speaker 3: of our branches are listed on the website. We are
Speaker 3: We do have offices nationwide. We're also on Instagram and
Speaker 3: Facebook also brain Harmonics and our central number is zero
Speaker 3: eight three two double six nine one eight three.
Speaker 1: Kerry, thank you so much for your time. I do
Speaker 1: have one last question, and I think it's also quite important.
Speaker 1: Just like there's medical aids who cover normal talking to
Speaker 1: talking therapy, is this something that's also covered with medical
Speaker 1: aid and if you are looking at doing it outside
Speaker 1: of medical aid, is it a costly exercise to experience
Speaker 1: neurofeedback therapy.
Speaker 3: So, unfortunately were not covered by medical aids as yet,
Speaker 3: there are no codes in existence for us and it's
Speaker 3: a very long fight.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to have to get codes in generation to
Speaker 2: be generated.
Speaker 3: The assessment is five hundred rand and the training is
Speaker 3: five hundred rand an hour, So the amount of money
Speaker 3: needed depends.
Speaker 2: On how many imbalances they have.
Speaker 3: But I can say that there are a lot of
Speaker 3: people who are spending a lot of money on various
Speaker 3: medications and over the counter, all sorts of things that
Speaker 3: when they add up what they're spending to try and
Speaker 3: feel good and then look at the cost of this.
Speaker 2: Where this is changing what underlies the.
Speaker 3: If you look at it in a way like that,
Speaker 3: it's really not as costly as going and buying whatever's
Speaker 3: makes you feel good of the counter continually. When you
Speaker 3: add that up, there is a big difference in doing
Speaker 3: it wines and getting the pathways generated and firm, then
Speaker 3: continually not sleeping and not.
Speaker 2: Looking after al
Speaker 1: Kerry Rudman, a neurofeedback therapist, to joining US now on
Speaker 1: the Family Matters feature on the Lunch with Jacob musha
Speaker 1: Qua