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Speaker 1: Seven of two Big Interview.

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Speaker 2: He has a fascinating conversation. Where does the South African

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Speaker 2: story begin and when was it with the docking of

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Speaker 2: three Dutch ships at the Cape in sixteen fifty two?

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Speaker 2: Or do you go to slightly earlier when the Portuguese

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Speaker 2: circumnavigated the African continent for the first time, or does

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Speaker 2: it go back to even earlier the Bantu migration? What

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Speaker 2: then of the San and the Koi Koy who had

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Speaker 2: been at the tip of the continent for millennia? Whose

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Speaker 2: history is it? Anyway? We're often told history is written

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Speaker 2: by the victors, and it almost always is a political

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Speaker 2: choice to determine a particular narrative. Well, the Department of

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Speaker 2: Basic Education is proposing wholesale changes to its history curriculum,

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Speaker 2: and they want to focus on an African centered perspective

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Speaker 2: rather than European one. So in school gone our studies

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Speaker 2: on the US Civil rights, the French Revolution and even

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Speaker 2: the angler w War, and in come in African ancient

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Speaker 2: empires from Mali to Mapungupwe and the stories of the

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Speaker 2: twentieth century liberation movements. And as you might expect, there

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Speaker 2: are those who disagree. So we've got two guests this morning,

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Speaker 2: the Department of Basic Education spokesperson Terrence Khala and also

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Speaker 2: Professor Siseeko Kumalo, who is from the University of Johannesburg.

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Speaker 2: A very good morning to you both and thank you

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Speaker 2: for your time. Terrence Klor I'll start with you because

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Speaker 2: correct me if I made any mistakes in my introduction

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Speaker 2: about what is being proposed, and kind you explain to

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Speaker 2: us what these wide ranging changes may mean.

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Speaker 3: Good morning, well money, good morning to yourself and good

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Speaker 3: money to the good profit as well as one of

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Speaker 3: the listeners of seven I too, thank you very much.

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Speaker 3: I think what's important for us to to underscore is

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Speaker 3: that nothing in the proposal is final. I think the

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Speaker 3: first departure point for us as the department to see

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Speaker 3: in this that we're looking at wholesale content coverage, historical

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Speaker 3: framing as well as the assessment design as well. I

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Speaker 3: think it's important for us to also underscore effect that

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Speaker 3: this has been an ongoing process since twenty nineteen. I

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Speaker 3: think first it was begun by the former Minister of

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Speaker 3: Basic Education with a series of consultations that took place

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty three and twenty twenty four. But I

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Speaker 3: think what's important to underscore is that this review process

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Speaker 3: seeks to gain insights from all of the various stakeholders

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Speaker 3: within the basic education sector to ensure that what has

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Speaker 3: been put forward is actually something that can be ratified,

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Speaker 3: sent forward and actually began to start cascading within our schools.

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Speaker 2: So as the proposals stand now, am I correct in

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Speaker 2: saying gone would be studies on the US Civil Rights movement,

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Speaker 2: the French Revolution, and even the Anglo Bo War.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean there are a series of core focuses

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Speaker 3: that we're taking. I think obviously it's about historical inquiry

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Speaker 3: and evidence and I think interpretation of sources and critical

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Speaker 3: engagement with the past. So that's what we seek to do.

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Speaker 3: I think it's important to look at also the framing

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Speaker 3: of the content scope so that at least it covers

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Speaker 3: and gives the public a good understanding of where the

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Speaker 3: department seeks to go. I think we're looking at elements

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Speaker 3: around ancient and modern history, obviously looking at African and

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Speaker 3: world history. We need to review obviously the archaeology, archaeological

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Speaker 3: and material cultures as well. And I think it's important

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Speaker 3: Bominy that as mentioned, nothing in the proposal as final.

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Speaker 3: I think there's a series. There's three proposals that have

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Speaker 3: been made for amendments. It's Grade four to six, Grade

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Speaker 3: seven to nine, as well as Grade ten to twelve.

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Speaker 3: And I think it's important that we engage with the

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Speaker 3: content so that you can review it adequately.

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Speaker 2: I'm really not fighting with you, I promise. I just

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Speaker 2: want to know as far as that specific question is concerned.

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Speaker 2: I get your wider framing of the context, but are

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Speaker 2: you saying to me South African learners will no longer

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Speaker 2: study the Anglobo war for example? Is that correct?

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Speaker 3: It is one of the proposals that have been made

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Speaker 3: by money. I think what's important, as mentioned, is that

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Speaker 3: we need to review it critically. Sure.

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, I understand why. I'm just saying that's gone.

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Speaker 2: Is that a fact as things stand now?

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Speaker 3: Well, as stands now, it's under review, Womaney. It's something

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Speaker 3: that is being looked at and being proposed for amendment

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Speaker 3: so that you can be able to then make sure

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Speaker 3: that as mentioned.

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Speaker 2: Okay, No, I really am not fighting with you, so

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Speaker 2: please please don't. I just wanted to make sure I

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Speaker 2: had that fact right because that made my eye pop

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Speaker 2: a little look, I mean I mentioned earlier that history

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Speaker 2: is a critical skill. I think because students of history

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Speaker 2: are required to examine sources, reference material, interpret facts. I

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Speaker 2: can't think of a better foundation for post metric academic learning.

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Speaker 2: And I understanding also that the subject is to be

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Speaker 2: made compos three all the way to grade twelve.

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Speaker 3: That's what the proposals do, suggests Molanni, so that at

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Speaker 3: least we can be able to make sure that we

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Speaker 3: bring proper context within the basic educational space and help

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Speaker 3: our learners adequately understand the reviews from back to front,

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Speaker 3: so making sure that history is part of the learning

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Speaker 3: of all of our children within South Africa.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, all my other guest was listening to us is

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Speaker 2: Professor Seco Kumalo from the University of Johannesburg, and he's

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Speaker 2: somebody who knows how these things work. Professor Kumala, I

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Speaker 2: don't know if you've seen any of these proposals, and

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Speaker 2: perhaps let's start with your broad assessment of what is

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Speaker 2: being proposed.

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Speaker 1: Good morning, Monani, as well as to a good colleague

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Speaker 1: from the department and to the listeners. In terms of

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Speaker 1: my own sentiment with respect to the broad proposals that

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Speaker 1: are being made. I am cautious, to say the least,

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Speaker 1: for a number of reasons. As our colleague has indicated.

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Speaker 1: At the moment, these are proposals and so nothing has

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Speaker 1: yet been finalized or set in stone, and public participation

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Speaker 1: is being requested both by the DVE as well as

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Speaker 1: various government structures in order for the public to basically

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Speaker 1: say do we want to go in this direction or not.

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Speaker 1: I suppose reticence stems from the function of history in

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Speaker 1: the basic school curriculum basic education curriculum, which is to

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Speaker 1: say that, in the first instance, it needs to expose

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Speaker 1: our learners, yes to South African history, but more importantly,

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Speaker 1: to also create critical citizens who are aware of global discourses.

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Speaker 1: So I would suggest that if, for example, South Africa,

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Speaker 1: through this consultation process, decides to eliminate some of those

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Speaker 1: various themes that you were talking about within the curriculum,

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Speaker 1: we would actually be driving ourselves or we would be

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Speaker 1: shooting ourselves in the foot and driving towards an edge.

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Speaker 1: Why do I say that, It's because it would create

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Speaker 1: a very insular citizenry for us, both for those who

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Speaker 1: are coming into the higher education space, but for example,

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Speaker 1: for individuals who are also going into the p set

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Speaker 1: space that be the tip colleges as well as into

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Speaker 1: learnerships who have been subjected to a historiographical curriculum that

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Speaker 1: necessarily only tells a quote unquote South African or afrocentric

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Speaker 1: what is it afrocentric history? So my own is I

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Speaker 1: think to lay or to raise a bit of some

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Speaker 1: caution rather around the decisions that the public makes in

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Speaker 1: this public consultation process, precisely because we want to have

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Speaker 1: individuals who are critically aware of our history but also

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Speaker 1: who are globally aware of global discourses.

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Speaker 2: Raf Kumalo, your colleague from Stellenbosch, professor Jonathan Janssen, is

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Speaker 2: you know a lot more straightforward about this? He says,

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Speaker 2: this is anti intellectual, it's soul deadening. He says, this

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Speaker 2: is African essentialism, and it ignores other Africa in histories

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Speaker 2: for example. I mean, I suppose the real issue here

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Speaker 2: is can you package history neatly in terms of good

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Speaker 2: guys and bad guys? Because one of the things that

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Speaker 2: is now clear is that there was much conquest on

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Speaker 2: the continent itself. There was intra African imperialism, if you will,

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Speaker 2: lots of destabilization, lots of displacement within the continent and

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Speaker 2: that this isn't exclusively the preserve of European conquerors.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, I would concur with Professor Junsen precisely

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Speaker 1: because of the function of history within the basic education space,

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Speaker 1: which is to say that if we'd go in the

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Speaker 1: direction of only prioritizing the South African story, we limit

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Speaker 1: our learners from an appreciation of the complexity that is

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Speaker 1: the human experience, which is what I think is driving

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Speaker 1: at when he says that it is anti intellectual and

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Speaker 1: fundamentally essentialism. And I think to me the caution as

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Speaker 1: I say to the South African public, because it is

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Speaker 1: our decision. At the end of the day, the DD

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Speaker 1: is going to make final decisions on the basis of

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Speaker 1: how the consultation processes unfold and are then concluded. So

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Speaker 1: it's ours, then, as academics and intellectuals, to point out

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Speaker 1: what are the dangers in telling a single sided story,

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Speaker 1: in telling quote unquote a story of absolute victimhood, because

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Speaker 1: it has consequences not only in the sense of training

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Speaker 1: our learners, but also in terms of how those learners

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Speaker 1: step into public affairs and into the polity.

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Speaker 2: Terrence Kyla I mean, as you say, this is still

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Speaker 2: at the public commentary stage, so it's not casting stone.

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Speaker 2: But do you appreciate the criticism from academics who are

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Speaker 2: worried that this is more political than necessarily academic and

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Speaker 2: it may limit the view and perspective of those who

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Speaker 2: learn it.

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Speaker 3: I think we welcome the discourse, so we welcome the

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Speaker 3: engagement around the sort of education, and I think we

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Speaker 3: welcome the insight of our good professors as well, because

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Speaker 3: this is the kind of academic knowledge that we need

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Speaker 3: to come forward so that you can really have a

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Speaker 3: history curriculum that carries the true story of South Africa.

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Speaker 3: And I think it's important that we make sure that

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Speaker 3: we don't entrench that narrative that this is the anti

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Speaker 3: world history and pro African history. I think what it

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Speaker 3: does is it elevates African history, which has historically been underrepresented,

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Speaker 3: but it doesn't necessarily remove or prohibit world history. So

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Speaker 3: I think it's important we do welcome the discourse. We

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Speaker 3: welcome this engagement, and we encourage all of our interested

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Speaker 3: parties to make formal representation because those are the representations

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Speaker 3: that will be considered taken forward and make sure that

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Speaker 3: once the final amendments are put forward. They are adequately

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Speaker 3: packaged and they take into consideration the very important and

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Speaker 3: relevant views of all of our stakeholders. Not only our academics,

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Speaker 3: not only our parents, not it's cats, but all of

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Speaker 3: your listeners as well are invited to make comment and

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Speaker 3: really just make sure that we can have a Syrah

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Speaker 3: consultas a process. All.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate your time, both Terrence Khala, the Department of

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Speaker 2: Basic Education spokesperson, and Professor si Sego Kumalo from the

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Speaker 2: University of Johannesburg. I think my rate flags when he

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Speaker 2: talks about the true story, the true history. Whose truth

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Speaker 2: might we be talking about?

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Speaker 1: Your views