Speaker 1: Welcome back, and I'm so so looking forward to this
Speaker 1: next interview because not only is my guest a dear friend,
Speaker 1: he's also I think, in my opinion, the most talented
Speaker 1: photographer in South Africa. He has I think around forty
Speaker 1: thousand followers on Instagram, including some very high profile people,
Speaker 1: and he tells the most incredible stories using his pictures
Speaker 1: as a medium. So if you don't follow the human's
Speaker 1: narrative on Instagram, do yourself a favor, look it up
Speaker 1: and follow him today. His name is Armand Haw and
Speaker 1: he is here in studio with me with his beautiful
Speaker 1: wife Laura, and it's a great pleasure to say good
Speaker 1: morning and welcome to weekend breakfast a mount good grief.
Speaker 2: Amy.
Speaker 3: Also, this is hectic listening through listening to my voice
Speaker 3: through the head voice. This is the first time live
Speaker 3: on radio. Yeah, I think I did have a live
Speaker 3: on Instagram once but I accidentally press that button.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much for the reduction. Is it was?
Speaker 2: It was fantastic.
Speaker 3: Mind.
Speaker 1: You're currently working as a as a photographer with Independent Media.
Speaker 1: You also post a lot on your own social media
Speaker 1: and relay some of the stories and experiences that you
Speaker 1: have out in the field, which I think is what
Speaker 1: draws so many people to you, is that you we
Speaker 1: almost feel like we know you and get to share
Speaker 1: some of your experiences. What inspired you to enter this path?
Speaker 3: I always loved the medium of photography for four years
Speaker 3: growing up, and I was one of those kids that
Speaker 3: never had any idea what to do with my life.
Speaker 3: I didn't want to go and sit in the office.
Speaker 3: And I also I found school very difficult. I didn't
Speaker 3: I wasn't a fantastic performer in school, so so slowly
Speaker 3: but surely I gravitated towards the creative industries. I did
Speaker 3: not know what exactly, but something maybe acting or something
Speaker 3: like that, and photography came natural to me.
Speaker 2: But I think the struggle was.
Speaker 3: Cameras, which is very expensive, and I saw that as
Speaker 3: a as a mental block of how am I able
Speaker 3: to produce pictures without any cameras? And slowly but surely
Speaker 3: I found little ways and saved up for cameras and
Speaker 3: so forth.
Speaker 2: And I think my.
Speaker 3: First, my first official job as a junior photographer was
Speaker 3: in the Middle East and the first day I arrived,
Speaker 3: these guys gave me a duffel bag with two cameras,
Speaker 3: and three lenses, and that was when it all kind
Speaker 3: of like became realistic to me, like, okay, cool, there
Speaker 3: is other ways to do this, and if you're shooting
Speaker 3: for an agency or a company, then they should provide
Speaker 3: the cameras, basically, and I think that's when things started
Speaker 3: becoming a little bit more possible, and from then on
Speaker 3: it was just full steam ahead.
Speaker 1: To tell our listeners a little bit about the experience
Speaker 1: of being a photographer in the Middle.
Speaker 3: East, it was interesting. The majority was was commercial jobs,
Speaker 3: fashion photography, advertisement photography, and I enjoyed it. I enjoyed
Speaker 3: being behind the cameras, but there was something that really
Speaker 3: still wanted me to do, realistic images, like storytelling images.
Speaker 3: Photojournalism was always the end, the endpoint for me where
Speaker 3: I wanted to end up. But photojournalism is an extremely
Speaker 3: difficult genre of photography to get into, and it's also
Speaker 3: the one that pays the least unfortunately. But if you know,
Speaker 3: if you want to do something, then there's nothing can
Speaker 3: stop you to do that. So so I gravitate to
Speaker 3: gravitated towards photojournalism quite a lot. And in the country
Speaker 3: that I was in the Kingdom of Bahrain, we've felt
Speaker 3: that the waves of violence and the waves of protest
Speaker 3: from the Arab spring that started in two thousand and ten,
Speaker 3: I believe Egypt, Syria, Libya, and when it came to
Speaker 3: the country where I was in Bahrain, it was wild.
Speaker 3: There was masses and masses of people passed away by
Speaker 3: the government forces and so forth. And I was in
Speaker 3: a position, I don't want to say luckily, but I
Speaker 3: was in a position with cameras and I started covering
Speaker 3: this conflict and I found it interesting. I found it sad,
Speaker 3: I found it, I felt alive doing it. And that's
Speaker 3: when something clicked in my brain of like, this is
Speaker 3: the Gendre photography that I need to stick with because
Speaker 3: this is a storytelling situation.
Speaker 1: But what's it like to witness suffering and violence and
Speaker 1: and still be having to perform your job and take pictures.
Speaker 3: I mean, I was very lucky that I was guided
Speaker 3: by a photographer, my mentor at that stage, Australian photographer
Speaker 3: called full Weymouth, and he saw that I was pretty young.
Speaker 3: I was about twenty five at that stage, and he
Speaker 3: saw that. He told me that this is I'm way
Speaker 3: too young to do this, and he's experienced some conflict
Speaker 3: photography and war photography in his life, and he told
Speaker 3: me that it's going to mess you up. So if
Speaker 3: you want to do this, then there's a few things
Speaker 3: that you need to remember, and one is that you
Speaker 3: are not the victim. You are doing a job and
Speaker 3: you are portraying and telling the story of the victims.
Speaker 2: And if you.
Speaker 3: Lose a I'm can I say if you can't do
Speaker 3: your job, then you have no right to be there.
Speaker 3: If you can't handle it and you sit in the
Speaker 3: corner and cry, then you're helping absolutely nobody. And there's
Speaker 3: people that's actually relying on you to tell their story
Speaker 3: at that stage, So suck it up and do your job.
Speaker 3: So it was a harsh lesson, but very very important.
Speaker 3: And what you said that you're not the victim, you're
Speaker 3: telling the victim's story made so much sense. So that's
Speaker 3: the kind of like narrative that you need to tell
Speaker 3: yourself if you're covering violent stories or the stories of
Speaker 3: people passing away and stories of trauma, is that it's
Speaker 3: not you that's going through this. Is it is the
Speaker 3: people that's going through this, and you are just there
Speaker 3: shining a light on them, telling their story. So that's
Speaker 3: it almost becomes easier to to to go through that process.
Speaker 1: Weren't you scared?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean like being scared is an emotion that
Speaker 3: saves you. That saved my life many at times, because
Speaker 3: that's when everything in your body tells you that you
Speaker 3: are in a dangerous situation and you need to pull back.
Speaker 2: Then you need to.
Speaker 3: Duck and cover, go behind the police lines, like we'll
Speaker 3: run away from the police sometimes in situations.
Speaker 1: My guest is Amant Haw. He's known as the Humans
Speaker 1: Narrative on Instagram. The phenomenal photojournalist. Would encourage you to
Speaker 1: all follow him and if you want to ask him
Speaker 1: any questions about his experience, you're welcome to send them
Speaker 1: to us now one seven two five six seven one
Speaker 1: five six seven. So from from the Middle East where
Speaker 1: to next?
Speaker 3: I covered the conflict for about a year, year and
Speaker 3: a half, almost two years in Bahrain, and I worked
Speaker 3: with CNN at that stage Sky News. But as most
Speaker 3: conflicts in the world, and as most situations, it fizzles down,
Speaker 3: and I was I felt pretty much stuck there at
Speaker 3: that stage, and then I had the opportuit unity of
Speaker 3: one of the people at Sky News contacted me and said, listener,
Speaker 3: what's your plan because you're not you're not really well.
Speaker 3: They weren't buying any pictures of that stage, so so
Speaker 3: he was a little bit worried about, like what what's
Speaker 3: the situation going like? And and and he said to me,
Speaker 3: would you like to go and study in your field
Speaker 3: of photojournalism? And I jumped to the opportunity and said yes.
Speaker 3: So through a lot of contacts and emails and so forth,
Speaker 3: I had the opportunity to go and study for a
Speaker 3: master's degree in photojournalism at the best university in the
Speaker 3: world that gives photojournalism courses in in in London. And
Speaker 3: it was an absolutely phenomenal year of just soaking up
Speaker 3: the great photojournalists books and lessons and courses and it
Speaker 3: was it was great.
Speaker 2: And the people that that's that heed with me as well.
Speaker 3: It's still lifelong friends that scattered through about thirty countries
Speaker 3: in the world, and we all keep in contact about
Speaker 3: like not just birthdays, but like, yeah, you know, there's
Speaker 3: there's two of my friends in Kenya at the moment.
Speaker 3: There's there's there's people in Palestine at the moment.
Speaker 2: There's people everywhere.
Speaker 3: I mean, like America at the moment is crazy, and
Speaker 3: I've got three friends over there covering the protests and
Speaker 3: the riots and stuff, so so we all keep in
Speaker 3: contact and share information.
Speaker 1: And then after studying and doing that course, did you
Speaker 1: then come back to South Africa?
Speaker 3: I came back to South Africa after studies and felt
Speaker 3: a little bit lost over here. I started dating this
Speaker 3: beautiful girl at that stage, and then she ghosted me
Speaker 3: for quite a long time.
Speaker 2: Luckily we're married now.
Speaker 3: But but yeah, I started. I think I did a
Speaker 3: few months at Media twenty four at the Burger as
Speaker 3: a freelancer, and then I moved towards the Cape Times.
Speaker 3: And I think the first story that I that that
Speaker 3: I think that made an impact in my career in
Speaker 3: South Africa here was.
Speaker 2: There was.
Speaker 3: The opening of the IDZ at the Industrial Development Zone
Speaker 3: in Saltdana, where Jacob Zuma was still the president at
Speaker 3: that stage and the Premier Helen Ziller was going to
Speaker 3: open officially this situation. And when we arrived in Saldana,
Speaker 3: all you know, it was just like A and C
Speaker 3: flags everywhere and it was very much like, okay, well
Speaker 3: this is a political thing, not a provincial thing. And
Speaker 3: I went into this tent and was there was like
Speaker 3: thousands of people there and premiere Helen Zilla was saying
Speaker 3: some words on the stage and then she got.
Speaker 2: Booed off stage basically by the.
Speaker 3: Crowd, and then President Jacob Zuma stood up and they
Speaker 3: had this finger pointing match on stage and almost like
Speaker 3: the photos looks like they are actually going head to head.
Speaker 3: And I think I was luckily enough to be prepared
Speaker 3: at that stage and I took those photos of them
Speaker 3: both with their fingers in each other's face and stuff,
Speaker 3: and that the next day that was on each front
Speaker 3: page of independent media from like The Star, the Victorian News,
Speaker 3: the Cape Times, the Cape August. So that was when
Speaker 3: I realized, like, okay, cool, I'm in the South African
Speaker 3: media industry and I'm here to stay.
Speaker 1: And what keeps you here? Because as you said, I
Speaker 1: mean you're some of your peers from studying are all
Speaker 1: over the world. What keeps you in capes on this?
Speaker 3: I felt in the Middle East when I was covering
Speaker 3: the conflict over there, I felt a little bit of
Speaker 3: a disconnect, which emotionally actually saved me a few times,
Speaker 3: because that was it's not my people. And in South
Speaker 3: Africa now this is these are my people. This is
Speaker 3: my neighbors, my brothers, my sisters. I feel so African
Speaker 3: that this is where I would love to stay. And
Speaker 3: I think this is the most impact that I can
Speaker 3: make in life is here, not just in Cape On,
Speaker 3: but in South Africa, in Africa. So definitely, the people.
Speaker 2: Keep me here.
Speaker 1: And I think that connection really is evident in your
Speaker 1: page and in your following. I mean, I've been out
Speaker 1: with you when people have complete strangers have come up
Speaker 1: and said, oh my gosh, you're the human's narrative, and
Speaker 1: your wife Laura says, gosh, that happens all the time.
Speaker 1: So I think people do pick up on that connection
Speaker 1: that you have with them. And I think people are
Speaker 1: very grateful to you for bringing us these stories because
Speaker 1: you get inside of places that most of us can't go.
Speaker 1: What are some of the most extraordinary experiences you've had, Well.
Speaker 3: The latest one, I've been working with a journalist, Vivian Warby,
Speaker 3: and she is getting fantastic stories and she is amazing
Speaker 3: journalist behind the computer, just like making connections and making
Speaker 3: sure that we can go together to go into extraordinary places.
Speaker 3: So we just went into the Ritz Hotel, which was
Speaker 3: abandoned for.
Speaker 2: Many years.
Speaker 3: I think the last time something happened, we actually found
Speaker 3: menus like the invitations for the opening night upstairs in
Speaker 3: the Revolving restaurant, and it was twenty eight I think,
Speaker 3: and it was like welcome to the Revolving Restaurant and stuff,
Speaker 3: and it's all just like dead birds and bird poop, and.
Speaker 1: Your photos from there are extraordinary.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you. It was an extraordinary experience. And
Speaker 3: I think that's what drives me to do these things.
Speaker 3: I want these experiences, and I go through these experiences
Speaker 3: just with a camera in my hand, and I try
Speaker 3: to portray it the best way so that other people
Speaker 3: can see it as well.
Speaker 1: Do you ever get completely lost in your experience and
Speaker 1: lose track of where you're supposed to be and what
Speaker 1: you're supposed to be doing. I know that in terms
Speaker 1: of your personal life, Law is definitely the bus and
Speaker 1: manager of your calendar.
Speaker 2: She is.
Speaker 3: I am completely slapped with attention deficit disorder, and I
Speaker 3: love it absolutely. It makes me hyper focus sometimes on
Speaker 3: photos where I can literally sit for twenty to forty
Speaker 3: minutes and just wait for that specific momentait way longer
Speaker 3: than I should to be honest, i'man like I need
Speaker 3: to be somewhere. I'm just waiting until that person with
Speaker 3: the dog looks this way and the reflection is like that,
Speaker 3: and I'm waiting for a bird to fly past them.
Speaker 2: That's the picture.
Speaker 1: So yeah, no, definitely, And I mean that's why you're
Speaker 1: always on the front page. How many front pages of
Speaker 1: your head? Do you know? If you kept count?
Speaker 3: I started collect collecting the physical front pages, and I
Speaker 3: ran out of space, and I do not know what
Speaker 3: to do with these the physical front pages. I've got
Speaker 3: a stack of them in a cupboard that there's no
Speaker 3: place for shoes anymore. But I would love to one
Speaker 3: day just make a collage of this on a wall somewhere.
Speaker 1: Wallpaper a whole room with them. It would be amazing,
Speaker 1: absolutely wow.
Speaker 3: But further on, yeah, I keep the PDFs of all
Speaker 3: the front pages.
Speaker 1: I mean, as you said, like the photoge you said
Speaker 1: in the start of this interview. Photojournalism is one of
Speaker 1: the most difficult forms of photography to break into, and
Speaker 1: yet it is probably the worst paid one, So you
Speaker 1: have to find ways to sustain yourself. I'm sure. Do
Speaker 1: you give talks, do you train young photographers? What do
Speaker 1: you do.
Speaker 3: I I tried to do it as much as possible,
Speaker 3: I think I I did some empty jobs. A few
Speaker 3: years ago. I started with the Bridal Fair was the
Speaker 3: Winelands Bridle Fair. A friend of mine manages that and
Speaker 3: she asked me to to to m c that. So
Speaker 3: I did that and it was interesting but also nerve racking.
Speaker 3: And then I m seed a few friends' weddings and
Speaker 3: recently I I was on Dan Carter's podcast podcast that
Speaker 3: he just started in Cape Town at the gin Barre
Speaker 3: in Cape Town, which is fantastic and it's it's it's
Speaker 3: such an interesting concept because he also Dan also said
Speaker 3: like this is what he actually wanted, is a podcast
Speaker 3: of interesting people that x birds in their field and
Speaker 3: everybody just you know, share information and stuff.
Speaker 2: So that was fantastic.
Speaker 3: Also, I did the the opening of a few exhibitions
Speaker 3: for Shoot for Purpose, an absolutely fantastic program run by
Speaker 3: Karnate and Navavi. They use street photography two to coach
Speaker 3: victims of trauma, specifically female victims of trauma. They sponsor cameras.
Speaker 3: They have photo walks through the streets of Cape Town
Speaker 3: through specific scenarios and stuff, and it is it is
Speaker 3: a platform for them to express themselves where they feel
Speaker 3: that their voices might have been.
Speaker 2: Subdued for years.
Speaker 3: And the photos that comes out of this program and
Speaker 3: the people, the people whose lives get changed, is a
Speaker 3: fantastic thing to witness.
Speaker 1: I wish, I wish I could have another hour talking
Speaker 1: to you, but it is nine o'clock in time for
Speaker 1: that Witness News Amanda Haw the Human's Narrative.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Amen,