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Speaker 1: You're listening to the best of the Money Show.

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Speaker 2: The Money Show, so little after seven o'clock. Welcome to

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Speaker 2: the Best Bits of the Money Show. You're listening to

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Speaker 2: a digest of just some of the best shows this week.

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Speaker 2: Money Show. Listen, give us a rating, preferably a very

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Speaker 2: good one. We insist, and also share it with your

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Speaker 2: friends and your colleagues. There's just no sense in keeping

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Speaker 2: it to yourself. Of course, Tonight we'll bring you a

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Speaker 2: mix of stories from the world of money from the

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Speaker 2: week that has been in personal finance. Warren Ingram, a

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Speaker 2: financial advisor and co founder of Galileo Capital, explaining when

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Speaker 2: renting stops making sense and buying becomes the better move.

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Speaker 3: It is a nuanced conversation, and I think it's one

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Speaker 3: we've had before, and I think we're going to have

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Speaker 3: it again many times in the months and years ahead,

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Speaker 3: because it's it's also a changing conversation, Stephen, where we

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Speaker 3: you know, we get impacted by, for example, interest rates,

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Speaker 3: and and you know interest rates are affected by inflation.

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Speaker 3: So if we're expecting inflation to go up, then that's

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Speaker 3: going to push interest rates up, and that that makes

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Speaker 3: home ownership more expensive. And equally, if inflation starts coming

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Speaker 3: down and interest rates come down, then then you know,

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Speaker 3: home ownership becomes a little bit more viable again. And

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Speaker 3: and and I think it's it's a condition that that

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Speaker 3: does go in cycles. But I but I also believe

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Speaker 3: there is a time and I think now is one

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Speaker 3: of those times when some of the banks are looking

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Speaker 3: to build their their client base, you know, in mortgages,

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Speaker 3: and and so they start offering rather attractive rates and

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Speaker 3: and so I think it's a conversation that's always going

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Speaker 3: to be relevant in in our world of personal finance.

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Speaker 3: But but I do think it's it's never going to

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Speaker 3: be a sort of a one shoe fits all, to

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Speaker 3: use that that wonderful cliche. I think there are times

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Speaker 3: when home ownership is a very good idea and other

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Speaker 3: times when when when renting is the very best idea

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Speaker 3: you can make, and we need to be careful that

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Speaker 3: we just kind of make a rule of thumb that

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Speaker 3: you should always own. I think always owning becomes a

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Speaker 3: very bad decision for a lot of people.

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Speaker 4: And Okay, just to put this all in context as well.

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Speaker 4: If you look at if you're going to buy a house,

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Speaker 4: that is probably almost certainly your biggest kind of thing

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Speaker 4: that you buy in terms of expense. If you don't

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Speaker 4: buy a house, the amount of money you spend on

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Speaker 4: accommodation over your let's call it fifty years from sort

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Speaker 4: of starting to work to ending work is probably also

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Speaker 4: going to be your single biggest cost over that time. Right,

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Speaker 4: So that's why this is such an important issue. Either way,

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Speaker 4: it's going to be your most expensive cost.

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Speaker 3: You're right, And I think it's also sometimes you know,

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Speaker 3: as you were as you were saying that, I was thinking,

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Speaker 3: it's it's true. I mean, I think, you know, we

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Speaker 3: have to live somewhere so where whether we're we're paying

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Speaker 3: a mortgage or or we're paying rent, it's it's probably

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Speaker 3: going to be a very big cost. But but equally,

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Speaker 3: you know, the type of property you choose to stay

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Speaker 3: in has a very big impact on all of this,

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Speaker 3: because you know, if you if you live in a

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Speaker 3: place that's that's you know, expensive in South Africa, and

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Speaker 3: there are pockets where throughout the country where where there

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Speaker 3: are areas that have become very expensive over time, and

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Speaker 3: and you choose to stay in, you know, in an

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Speaker 3: expensive house and an expensive area, then then you might

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Speaker 3: find the cost of ownership is just simply unaffordable and

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Speaker 3: and the cost of renting might might be better for

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Speaker 3: you might be in your favor. Whereas you know, if

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Speaker 3: you decide, well, I'm actually happy to to be in

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Speaker 3: a little bit of a less fashionable area and happy

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Speaker 3: to to kind of live with some inconvenience, then you

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Speaker 3: might find the cost of home ownership is a lot less.

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Speaker 3: And and so suddenly the you know, the renting isn't

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Speaker 3: so clever, and and and home ownership becomes something you

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Speaker 3: should really consider.

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Speaker 4: Okay, we need to start then with the true cost

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Speaker 4: of owning a home. Now, I'm old enough to know

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Speaker 4: that when you look at these you know, the sort

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Speaker 4: of property pawn of the websites that carry all of

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Speaker 4: the properties, you've got to really look at the price,

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Speaker 4: and then you've got to look at everything else.

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Speaker 3: You're absolutely right, and and you know, let's just start

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Speaker 3: with transaction costs, because that's you know, those property websites

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Speaker 3: that you're talking about, they'll often show you at the

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Speaker 3: you know, towards the bottom the cost of just of

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Speaker 3: the transaction costs of getting in and I think you

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Speaker 3: know when you when you start to add the property taxes,

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Speaker 3: so the transfer duties and then the lawyer's fees for

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Speaker 3: the transfer, but also the lawyer's fees to the bank's lawyers,

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Speaker 3: because they're going to register a mortgage on your on

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Speaker 3: your property. You're probably looking at around ten or twelve

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Speaker 3: percent before you, you know, wipe your eyes out, and

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Speaker 3: that's just going in. You know, then on the way out,

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Speaker 3: you're you're going to pay those a and so the

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Speaker 3: transaction costs are are just astronomical as far as I'm concerned.

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Speaker 3: And and then then we get to the costs of ownership,

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Speaker 3: and that's the day to day cost. So, yes, you've

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Speaker 3: got a mortgage, you've got a bond repayment, but that

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Speaker 3: that's not where the story ends. You also have to

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Speaker 3: pay the municipality, so you have to pay them for rates.

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Speaker 3: And if you live in a in a in a state,

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Speaker 3: or in an apartment block, then you've got levees as well.

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Speaker 3: And then you know insurance and and don't forget that

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Speaker 3: even if you stay in an apartment, you are still

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Speaker 3: responsible for maintaining the property on the inside. You're going

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Speaker 3: to have to repaint every now and then do the cupboards,

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Speaker 3: and you know, the flooring. So you can probably add

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Speaker 3: about one or two percent of the value of your

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Speaker 3: property to your maintenance costs as well. So home ownership

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Speaker 3: is simply not just the bond. It's it's a lot

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Speaker 3: more than that.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 4: Is there a way to work out what you're likely

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Speaker 4: to spend on maintenance? I mean, obviously depends what you buy.

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Speaker 4: If you buy a fixer upper, in other words, something

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Speaker 4: that needs a lot of work, well you're going to

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Speaker 4: have to do a lot of work on it. But

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Speaker 4: I mean there must be a sort of way to

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Speaker 4: work it out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I'm not I'm not good with my maths

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Speaker 3: on the fly. So I did a little prep and

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Speaker 3: I just said, if you want to give yourself a range,

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Speaker 3: it's probably at the very lower end one percent a year,

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Speaker 3: and and then at the higher end two percent a year.

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Speaker 3: And the reason for that is if you stay in

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Speaker 3: a relatively modern apartment block, the maintenance will be a

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Speaker 3: bit less than if you stay in an older home.

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Speaker 3: But one to two percent of the value of the

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Speaker 3: home is a good is a good rule of thumb,

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Speaker 3: And so on a two million round home, you're probably

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Speaker 3: talking around twenty to forty thousand round a year on

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Speaker 3: top of so, so you know, just just to add

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Speaker 3: to all the other costs that that you are going

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Speaker 3: to pay.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, when does buying a home make sense? Because

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Speaker 4: this is where your life choices really start to matter.

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Speaker 4: And my house the phrase life choices slightly negative connotation

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Speaker 4: because it's usually where is this person there, they're sitting

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Speaker 4: considering their life choices. In other words, things we've done wrong. Okay,

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Speaker 4: So when does buying a home make When is buying

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Speaker 4: a home a good life choice?

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Speaker 3: Warren Ingram I think it starts with the timeframe. So

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Speaker 3: if you're if you're choosing a house in an area

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Speaker 3: and you say, I'm happy to lock myself into this

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Speaker 3: house in this area for at least the next eight

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Speaker 3: and ideally ten years, then that that's a big starting point.

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Speaker 3: That that's probably a very big signal for you to

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Speaker 3: take buying very seriously. And for a lot of people

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Speaker 3: that will coincide with when their kids go to school.

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Speaker 3: You know, they'll look at school and say, well, you know,

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Speaker 3: hopefully that's a twelve year you know, stretch and and

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Speaker 3: so I want to be in an area where I

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Speaker 3: can I can give my kids stability and know where

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Speaker 3: the schools are, and so that that will be the

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Speaker 3: starting point. Importantly, it's not when you start work and

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Speaker 3: you start your property life on your own. In other words,

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Speaker 3: that first of all studio or that first of all

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Speaker 3: place you share with a friend, that's not the place

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Speaker 3: you buy because most likely you're going to stay in

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Speaker 3: there for a year or two and maybe three until

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Speaker 3: your income rises, and then you're going to move. And

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Speaker 3: if you're in that moving cycle of every three years

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Speaker 3: moving into a bigger, better place, then you don't want

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Speaker 3: to buy because of all the transaction costs that we've

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Speaker 3: spoken about. So I think rule one is it's the

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Speaker 3: place I'm happy to stand for eight or ten years

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Speaker 3: or longer. And if you listen to someone like Warren Buffett,

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Speaker 3: you'll say that's the home you stay in for the

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Speaker 3: next fifty years, and then it's a great decision to buy. However,

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Speaker 3: that's not your only factor. You also need to know

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Speaker 3: that you've got at least ten percent of the value

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Speaker 3: of that house as a deposit, because you want to

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Speaker 3: give the banks some comforts that when you go in

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Speaker 3: and you're going to borrow money that you putting some

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Speaker 3: money into the deal as well. That means they give

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Speaker 3: you a better rate of interest. It also means that

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Speaker 3: you can get that bond paid down a bit quicker

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Speaker 3: than you would normally, and you've got the discipline of saving.

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Speaker 3: So I think that probably the deposit is number two,

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Speaker 3: and then number three would be what can you pay

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Speaker 3: on a monthly repayment on your bond versus the rent

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Speaker 3: that you were paying. If you can pay a big

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Speaker 3: enough deposit the on the property or the property is

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Speaker 3: cheap enough that it would match that the rent you

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Speaker 3: were paying, then you're probably you're probably on your way

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Speaker 3: to making a good buying decision. Then very last, and

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Speaker 3: I know you're going to laugh at me, Stephen, but

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Speaker 3: you have to have an emergency fund. You know you

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Speaker 3: need you probably need actually six months or you know,

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Speaker 3: emergency fund when you're in the early stages of owning

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Speaker 3: a home, because there are always costs that are going

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Speaker 3: to catch you out.

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Speaker 4: Well, talking of course to Warren Ingram tonight about renting

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Speaker 4: versus owning, and that conversation that we're having, we've heard

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Speaker 4: when buying does make sense, Warren there are moments when

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Speaker 4: renting actually makes sense absolutely.

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Speaker 3: And I think you know, in the in the job

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Speaker 3: environment that we're in now, where you're finding more and

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Speaker 3: more people working in the gig economy, where they don't

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Speaker 3: they don't you know, get employed in a stable position

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Speaker 3: with with stable income, you might find that their income

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Speaker 3: is extremely volatile and and maybe that they're you know,

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Speaker 3: some of these digital nomads where they're roaming around the

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Speaker 3: country or you know, even a city or even the world.

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Speaker 3: It's it makes no sense to me that that that,

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Speaker 3: you know, when you've got very unpredictable income and your

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Speaker 3: your you know, you require flexibility in your career in

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Speaker 3: terms of where you are that that you buy a home,

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Speaker 3: I think renting then makes a lot of sense. And

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Speaker 3: and especially if it's you know, early in your adult

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Speaker 3: life and you're not quite sure who you are and

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Speaker 3: where you want to be and what you're going to

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Speaker 3: do with your life there, then you know, putting down

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Speaker 3: your roots too early into physical property could be a

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Speaker 3: real burden U And and equally, if you're in a

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Speaker 3: position where you're you're not financially very strong and you

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Speaker 3: haven't got this you know, budgeting down properly and and

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Speaker 3: and you know you're finding adulting difficult, then I would

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Speaker 3: say the same thing. I think you've just got to

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Speaker 3: be very careful that you that you don't over commit

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Speaker 3: to a big debt, because it's you know, it's it's

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Speaker 3: pointless saying to a bank, you know who's given you

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Speaker 3: a mortgage. You know, look, I've made a few mistakes.

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Speaker 3: Can you just give me a bit of time off

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Speaker 3: and I'll pay you back. You know, the deal here

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Speaker 3: is they've lent you a lot of money to so

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Speaker 3: that you can buy a property, not so that they

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Speaker 3: could end up owning a property, and and so that

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Speaker 3: could become a catastrophic decision. Equally at the other end

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Speaker 3: of life, when when when people decide towards the end

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Speaker 3: of their career that they've worked in the big city

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Speaker 3: and and now they're keen to go and move to

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Speaker 3: a smaller town and have a more peaceful life. The

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Speaker 3: mistake a lot of people make beause they fall in

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Speaker 3: love with a particular town because they went there on

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Speaker 3: a holiday, and so they're going buy, you know, a

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Speaker 3: holiday house and find that you know, it's super in

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Speaker 3: the three months of summer, but it's rather awful in

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Speaker 3: the four months of winter. And so I would say

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Speaker 3: renting in a place that you are new to the area,

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Speaker 3: and especially if it's a new city or a new province,

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Speaker 3: it makes a lot more sense to rent until you've

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Speaker 3: got a very good idea of the layer of the land.

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Speaker 4: What about opportunity, he says controversially. So I think anyone

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Speaker 4: who brought into Cape Town's housing market ten years ago

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Speaker 4: is smiling now. But you could say that somebody could

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Speaker 4: easier brought into Jerberg's housing market ten years ago and

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Speaker 4: expected to be smiling now.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I'm one of those, and I can promise you

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Speaker 3: I wasn't smiling when I sold that that house that

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Speaker 3: I'd downed for nearly a decade. And I think you've

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Speaker 3: you've got to be very careful that your your home.

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Speaker 3: You should view your home as as an asset only

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Speaker 3: for the purposes of your own little balance sheet, and

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Speaker 3: not as an investment asset or a retirement asset. And

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Speaker 3: so you should be buying because it suits your life

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Speaker 3: and your stage of life and all the other decisions

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Speaker 3: that we've discussed around schooling, etc. But you should not

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Speaker 3: view it as an opportunity to make money, you know,

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Speaker 3: to use that Cape example. So someone buying into the

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Speaker 3: Cape now believing that the property market in the Cape

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Speaker 3: will continue for the next decade in exactly the way

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Speaker 3: it's done for the last decade. That's called driving by

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Speaker 3: looking in the rear view mirror. You're driving forward at

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Speaker 3: one hundred and twenty k's an hour and the only

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Speaker 3: thing you focused on is the rear view mirror. In

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Speaker 3: other words, what happened in history. And as anyone who

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Speaker 3: drives a car knows, it's very dangerous to drive and

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Speaker 3: only look in the rear view mirror. So I think

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Speaker 3: it's a fallacy to expect that whatever happened in a market,

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Speaker 3: whether it's a stock market or a property market, that

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Speaker 3: that will just repeat itself forever. It just doesn't do that.

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Speaker 4: There's also an opportunity cost, right, if you putting money

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Speaker 4: into a house, you could have put that money somewhere else,

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Speaker 4: and you've lost out on that chance.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think you know understanding that. You know,

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Speaker 3: if you over commit to a property purchase, it's it's

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Speaker 3: the same as over committing to a single share in

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Speaker 3: a business that operates in one sector, maybe in one city,

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Speaker 3: in one area. And and so you know it. You know,

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Speaker 3: if we were talking about a share put fold, you

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Speaker 3: would never tell someone to put all their money onto

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Speaker 3: one small share in one little one little sector of

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Speaker 3: one and maybe only in one city. It just wouldn't

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Speaker 3: make sense. But we we view property somehow as lower risk,

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Speaker 3: and so I think, you know, diversifying your your risk

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Speaker 3: away from having everything in one you know, one egg

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Speaker 3: and and kind of buying lots of eggs and lots

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Speaker 3: of baskets makes a lot more sense to me.

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Speaker 2: That was were an Ingram financial advisor and co founder

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Speaker 2: of Galileo Capital who unpacked the key considerations around when

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Speaker 2: it was financially wiser to home rather than continue renting,

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Speaker 2: highlighting the long term costs, benefits, and personal circumstances that

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Speaker 2: influence that particular decision.

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Speaker 1: The Best of the Money Show and.

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Speaker 2: In Investment School Vincent Anthony Rajah and CEO of Differential Capital,

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Speaker 2: and Karl Ruthman, the CEO of Sanlam Investments, explaining the

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Speaker 2: power of compound interest, why time in the market mattered

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Speaker 2: more than timing the market, and how patients could dramatically

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Speaker 2: change long term investment outcomes.

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Speaker 5: I think compounding and compounding of interest and compounding investments

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Speaker 5: is what we in the asset management industry call us

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Speaker 5: the eighth wonder of the world, and I think they're

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Speaker 5: the longer you're invested in the market, you start returning

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Speaker 5: returns on your returns and that and if you still invested,

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Speaker 5: you stay invested for a long long time, you would

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Speaker 5: definitely get very very good returns in line with the market.

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Speaker 5: And the BIGUS risk is not to mess around with that.

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Speaker 5: So just they invested, forget about a little bit and

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Speaker 5: don't listen too much to the noise that you hear

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Speaker 5: every day in the news.

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Speaker 4: So that would mean you would basically ignore everything that's

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Speaker 4: happened in the last month.

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Speaker 1: I think.

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Speaker 5: So you can ignore if you think what's happening in

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Speaker 5: the last month. Every day is a new day, so

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Speaker 5: that other the market. There's a significant amount of volatility

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Speaker 5: in the market, and I think if you try to

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Speaker 5: time the volatility or try to either sell the end

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Speaker 5: of the evening or buy early in the next morning,

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Speaker 5: I definitely think you will not get good returns. So

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Speaker 5: usually investment is over long periods, and I think if

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Speaker 5: you think back over three years or four years from now,

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Speaker 5: I don't think you even think you will remember what

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Speaker 5: happened in the markets now because markets will correct over time,

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Speaker 5: So I would say ignore it. If you just think

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Speaker 5: about what happened yesterday where your markets were down, then

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Speaker 5: the announcement of the ceasefire and markets go by six

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Speaker 5: seven percent. Today it goes down by four five percent.

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Speaker 5: Is very difficult to time this, So just invested and

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Speaker 5: believe that everything should go back to normal over time.

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Speaker 4: And just so that we don't get caught in an

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Speaker 4: argument later long term, can we agree five years and longer?

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Speaker 5: I would say longer than five years. I think long

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Speaker 5: term should be fifteen to twenty years. You know, the

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Speaker 5: more the longer you invest, you know, the better the

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Speaker 5: return sore. I think it's very difficult to even time

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Speaker 5: the market. So for me, five years for me is

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Speaker 5: short to medium term. Long term is probably fifteen to

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Speaker 5: twenty years.

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Speaker 4: Vincent Anthony Raja been trying to read your expression because

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Speaker 4: I mean, do you agree wholeheartedly? I'm not convinced that

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Speaker 4: you do.

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Speaker 6: Not really, I think I share a different view.

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Speaker 1: I think.

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Speaker 6: Fundamentals matter. And I'll give you a couple of examples.

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Speaker 6: So for the last ten years, if you'd invested, for example,

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Speaker 6: in if you're a Chinese investor investing in the MSCI

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Speaker 6: China Index, you've received close to no returns, actually slightly

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Speaker 6: negative since twenty seventeen. So you can go through very

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Speaker 6: long periods where poor fundamentals can persist for a very

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Speaker 6: very long time. And then there's an other interesting study

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Speaker 6: which I think is important for many investors to consider it.

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Speaker 6: It was done by a guy called Hendrik Bessembinde, which

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Speaker 6: studied over thirty thousand companies from nineteen sixty to twenty twenty,

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Speaker 6: and almost all the returns on the s and P

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Speaker 6: five hundred or in that you know, the US market

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Speaker 6: was generated by about eighty companies. So the point is,

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Speaker 6: you know, if the fundamentals are in your favor and

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Speaker 6: the underlying companies are profitable, and the macro environment is

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Speaker 6: in your favor, sure you can benefit from sort of

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Speaker 6: not paying attention and then the long term things can

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Speaker 6: work out for you. But if you go to you know,

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Speaker 6: examples like you know, Japan's last decade, and one would

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Speaker 6: say the same thing has happened in China where a

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Speaker 6: lot of companies started out reasonably expensive, but at the

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Speaker 6: same time sort of profitability and return on equity has

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Speaker 6: been really bad in China as a whole, and that's

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Speaker 6: led to poor equity returns in aggregate for the index.

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Speaker 6: So I think it's important to bear fundamentals at the

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Speaker 6: core of that decision. You know, So if the underlying

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Speaker 6: economy is good, it's made of companies with good growth potential,

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Speaker 6: exciting industries that you believe have got long term growth potential,

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Speaker 6: then I think, you know, the concept of staying invested

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Speaker 6: for the long term is important, but I think it's

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Speaker 6: it's really important to keep on referring back to that

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Speaker 6: assumption around whether the fundamentals hold.

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Speaker 4: So, okay, so do you change? I mean I could

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Speaker 4: ask you, Vincent, how often do you change? If you

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Speaker 4: say events, then you could be in the ask man,

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Speaker 4: it's dropping and changing quite often.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it's. I mean, my approach and our

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Speaker 6: approach is to constantly re evaluate your information set and

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Speaker 6: if there's information that's that's critical to your assumptions, you

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Speaker 6: have to change your mind. If the information changes, you

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Speaker 6: should change. That's that's my view. It's worked out well

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Speaker 6: for us. But I think you know, as I said,

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Speaker 6: you've got to have a robust investment philosophy around that.

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Speaker 6: So I would agree with the comments that say, don't

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Speaker 6: let your emotions drive you. You know, so if it's

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Speaker 6: your emotions starting to affect you, step away from it

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Speaker 6: for a second, don't make the decision. Then focus on

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Speaker 6: the information at hand and what drives your fundamental decision

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Speaker 6: around why you've invested. So let's take an example. If

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Speaker 6: you've picked a company with very good long term return potential,

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Speaker 6: you think over twenty years, you know this company is

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Speaker 6: going to be around for a long time, it's going

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Speaker 6: to be needed. Let's say it's a utility company. Blah

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Speaker 6: blah blah. There's nothing wrong with every now and then

401
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Speaker 6: visiting your investment case to say, okay, this electricity company.

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Speaker 6: Are there any alternatives to it? Is there tax changes?

403
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Speaker 6: Are there regulatory changes? Things that can materially damage my

404
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Speaker 6: investment thesis, because sometimes those things do come through and

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Speaker 6: can absolutely reck havoc and your portfolios.

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Speaker 4: I mean, Cole would have been the utility company thirty

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Speaker 4: years ago, for example.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely, I mean there's there's plenty of those.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Cole.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know if you have a response

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Speaker 4: to that, if you see it slightly, If.

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Speaker 5: I do, I do so, I think I think Vincent's

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Speaker 5: point is very valid if you're a portfolio manager. My

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Speaker 5: comment was as an investor, as a regional investor, so

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Speaker 5: you definitely want a portfolio manager to be in the market.

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Speaker 5: They've got investment philosophy. Different managers have different for life

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Speaker 5: investment philosophy, so they need to stay true to their fundamentals.

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Speaker 5: That's what we do and that's what Vincent's business do

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Speaker 5: all the time. My comment was more as an investor,

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Speaker 5: as a retail investor, I think you need to leave

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Speaker 5: it to the portfolio managers or qualify to do this.

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Speaker 5: They need to take the emotions of the investment philosophy

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Speaker 5: between companies, so I agree with them. My comment was

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Speaker 5: not as a portfolio manager. My comment was as a

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Speaker 5: retail investor, don't try and chop and change between different

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Speaker 5: and lesson philosophy. So that's more. That's more my point.

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Speaker 4: No sure, for sure, I know I get there. So

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Speaker 4: I mean when you are Carle, when you are looking

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Speaker 4: at investment over a long period of time, there's some

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Speaker 4: very interesting numbers and numbers or generally make bad radio.

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Speaker 4: But one of the things that I found fascinating was

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Speaker 4: when you when you sort of look at your final

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Speaker 4: cumulative investment value. You actually only start to get to

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Speaker 4: about half of that right towards the end. This is

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Speaker 4: not a sort of so compound thing is different to

436
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 4: arithmetic thing. The numbers don't work arithmetically. They work differently.

437
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 4: So you would expect to be halfway through your investment journey.

438
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 4: So you're going to work for thirty years, fifteen years

439
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,879
Speaker 4: in you might think, well, I'll be halfway. It doesn't

440
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 4: work like that at all, does it.

441
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 5: No, it doesn't work like that at all. So you

442
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,680
Speaker 5: definitely if you look through it so mean you you

443
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 5: really see the real value at the end. So the

444
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 5: last three to four years of your let's say you're

445
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 5: in your retirement period. So if you have example for

446
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 5: the listeners out there, if you do work for three

447
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,919
Speaker 5: years and you start saving in your pension funds and

448
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,639
Speaker 5: you leave in your pension fund the real value, if

449
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 5: you look at all the all the calculations, probably sits

450
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,440
Speaker 5: in the last four or five years. So our advice

451
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 5: always to all our clients and investors out there is

452
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 5: that you know, probably the best way of retiring is

453
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 5: if you can just push out your retirement by another

454
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,679
Speaker 5: three or four years. So give an example. So you know,

455
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 5: if you compound it roughly let's say fifteen percent per year,

456
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,040
Speaker 5: and your retirement fund is roughly five million millionire and

457
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 5: at the end of your retirement period, if you just

458
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,120
Speaker 5: stay invested for another three four years and you try

459
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 5: and just push out your retirement, you're you're your five

460
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 5: million RRE would probably go gross by seventy to eighty percent,

461
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,640
Speaker 5: sometimes double depends on the market. So that last four

462
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 5: or five years is incredibly important. Therefore it is important

463
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 5: not to not to use your pension money and those

464
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 5: things to cover all that expenses. It's it really makes

465
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 5: a big difference. You know, that last four or five

466
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 5: years is absolutely critical interview. As I said, if you

467
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 5: can push it out, it's even better. Then you see

468
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 5: that that real compounding coming through.

469
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 4: One of the things that I always think about in

470
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 4: these moments, skyll Is is what happened in sort of

471
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 4: day two of the lockdown at the start of the pandemic,

472
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 4: and how the market really I think dropped by thirty

473
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 4: percent at one point. You would not want your thirty

474
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 4: years to end in that week, obviously, no.

475
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 5: So I think it is if you think about nd

476
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 5: you so it's very easy. When you when you safe

477
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,400
Speaker 5: and you you've got pension money, you keep on contributing

478
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 5: to it. You don't you're draw down you know is

479
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 5: you know you're not using your drawdouns. That is very

480
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,360
Speaker 5: simple because then you can see, you can sit through

481
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 5: the cycles and you can be patient and hopefully the

482
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 5: day you retire it all works out for you. But

483
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 5: if you basically retire two or three days after this

484
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 5: significant drawdown luck for example in COVID, now you can

485
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 5: lock that in. But then it also depends on how

486
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 5: you invest. Right so if you invest you know, you

487
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 5: reinvest that and you only have a four or five

488
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 5: percent draw down period, then then then it's going to

489
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 5: affect you a little bit less. So my advice again

490
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 5: to the to the listeners is that if you are

491
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 5: in your retirement pretty much, you know, let's say augment

492
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 5: your retirement was last month, your retirement was the first

493
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 5: or first of April, you definitely do not want to,

494
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 5: you know, lock in your investments and have long drawdowns.

495
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 5: You probably want to find ways to invest a little

496
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 5: bit longer, make your draw down for the first month

497
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 5: or two very very as low as possible, and make

498
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 5: sure that you probably, you know, see the recovery as

499
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 5: a as the markets recover three or four months later.

500
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 4: Vincent, it's a reminder of how important patient is patience

501
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 4: is in this game.

502
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 6: Yeah, the one thing I do agree with is around

503
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 6: the patients. And like if you've if you've picked a

504
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 6: theme to invest in, and that that that you know,

505
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 6: on a retail investor basis, generally you'd have to focus

506
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 6: on something that's a bit more longer term and then

507
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 6: you've got to stick around and be patient and wait

508
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 6: for that thesis to play out. Obviously, you know, bearing

509
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 6: in mind what I said, you know, don't take your

510
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 6: eye completely off the ball, pay attention to the information

511
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 6: I would say, you know, and if you don't have

512
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 6: the expertise, get the advice. You know, there's there's plenty

513
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 6: of really good financial advisors out there and professionals out

514
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 6: there that can help you. But I think that patience

515
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 6: is is critical. And the one thing you can't argue

516
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 6: with is the point around compound interest. It's powerful if

517
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 6: you've invested in companies and assets that are compound that

518
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 6: patience is a powerful tool to have on your side.

519
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 6: And when you you unnecessarily panic, you can destroy a

520
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 6: lot of wealth for yourself.

521
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 5: To add to you too, if you don't mind, if

522
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 5: you allow me just to what Vincent said, What I

523
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 5: think is important is what work we see a lot

524
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 5: in the market. Is that if you choose a manager,

525
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 5: you choose other you know, Vincent's Differential Capital, or you

526
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 5: choose solom Investments, you need to understand the philosophy of

527
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 5: your of your asset manager, right what is what is

528
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 5: their philosophy in and how do they invest money? So

529
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 5: it's very important. Every asset manager goes through cycles, and

530
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 5: your investment philosophy is going to go through cycles. So

531
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 5: as an investor, you need to be patient and understand

532
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 5: the cycles, the positive and negative that your asset manager

533
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 5: is going to come through, and you have to be

534
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 5: patient too to live through. That is very important just

535
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 5: to word to add to what what Vincent said.

536
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: That was Vincent, Anthony Roger and Carl Ruthman, a CEO

537
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 2: of Sanlam Investments, are sharing insights on the power of

538
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 2: compound interest. Are reinforcing why staying invested over time mattered

539
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,479
Speaker 2: more than trying to time the market and showed how

540
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 2: patients could significantly shape long term investment success.

541
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 1: Seven notes you were listening to the money shows the

542
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: best bits.

543
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 2: In our business. I unusual feature. Organizational behavior specialists are

544
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 2: simpure moil, discuss forgiveness at work, unpacking mistakes, conflict and

545
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 2: broken trust, and also examining how teams repaired relationships, learned honestly,

546
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 2: and rebuilt credibility while still holding higher standards.

547
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 7: I think even ways like forgiveness that sounds weird and softly,

548
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 7: particularly when you when you referred to them in the workplace,

549
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 7: and it's it's always interesting for me because you know,

550
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 7: when you look at teams, you realize that we're just

551
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 7: human beings before were employees. And therefore, any any relationship

552
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 7: that that you have, you're are gonna make mistakes. You

553
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 7: want to hit each other and and love your acknowledgement

554
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 7: that you are also going to head people. And unless

555
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 7: we create an environment, a culture of forgiveness or a

556
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 7: culture where actual things can be able to be sufficed,

557
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 7: you know we're actually going to suffer. And it's not

558
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 7: really about excusing wrongdoing. In fact, it's not even about forgetting.

559
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 7: People say forgive and forget. It's not even about that.

560
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 7: It's about just understanding how we need to overcome pact

561
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 7: heads while we're working, because the emotional toil of going

562
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 7: to a place that triggers you every day is really

563
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 7: really heavy.

564
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 4: There's so many things that come out of this. I mean,

565
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 4: for one, and this gets to a very deep issue superway,

566
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 4: is how long do you hold the anger and frustration

567
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 4: and can you make a conscious choice to let it go?

568
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 4: I think for some people that's incredibly hard. I think

569
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 4: there's some things you can't let go. Sometimes it can

570
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 4: be a small thing, but you actually find it very hard.

571
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 8: To let go.

572
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's such a difficult thing. And that's why you know,

573
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 7: many people who study forgiveness, they often differentiate between what

574
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 7: they call decisional forgiveness and emotional forgiveness, because emotional forgiveness

575
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 7: is that deeper level that you're talking about where something

576
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 7: is hit you so hard and you're just unable to

577
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 7: recover from it. But there is something called decisional forgiveness

578
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 7: where you literally make a decision that I'm going to

579
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 7: reduce the emotional trigger that this thing has. I'm going

580
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 7: to make a decision to forgive this particular person, whether

581
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 7: I'm feeling it at that particular time or not. I'm

582
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 7: going to make a decision, and for me, separating the

583
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 7: decision to forgive from those emotional experiences of forgiveness is very,

584
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 7: very useful because you then can't have people keep saying

585
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 7: to you move on because you know there is a

586
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 7: lingering head. But you've made a decision that me and

587
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 7: this person have to move forward together, and therefore we'll

588
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 7: find a way to lean on the decision cognitively rather

589
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 7: than emotionally, because the emotional part that's the hard pad

590
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 7: to heal.

591
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 4: Sometimes you can have a really good relationship with someone

592
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 4: and have had for say five or six years, You

593
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 4: worked with them for a long time, you have a

594
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 4: way of being together. Something happens and two or three

595
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 4: days later, say, you know, on a Monday, So after

596
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 4: a weekend, you come in and you almost are ready

597
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 4: to instinctively greet them in the way that you did

598
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 4: before this bad thing happened. Then, just as you do,

599
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 4: you remember the bad thing, do you need to remember

600
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 4: the good part a little more if you can.

601
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 7: What is even more damaging, Steven is that at that

602
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 7: point when you remember the bad stuff, most of the

603
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 7: time you're not going to even say it, and so

604
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 7: they just realize that something has changed in you and

605
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 7: maybe maybe even what you think the person is done.

606
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 7: And many of these relationships are broken because someone did something.

607
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 7: They're not even aware that they did something, but they've

608
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 7: had you. And some of these things are fatal. In

609
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 7: the meeting and I was speaking, you were not even

610
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 7: aware that I was speaking, and you spoke over me,

611
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 7: and it just looked to me like this was very intentional.

612
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 7: And many of those things because we never really questioned,

613
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 7: we never really say to the person and I noticed

614
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 7: something a little bit different on that particular meeting. We

615
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 7: just conclude over the weekend, you've been moling over this

616
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 7: whole thing, and then when you come back, because you

617
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 7: don't want to address unfortunately now have an emotional reaction

618
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 7: to that particular person. It would even be useful that

619
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 7: even before you even try to remember the good stuff,

620
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 7: if it is possible to have the courage to take

621
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 7: that employ that that co cut to side and say

622
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 7: this is what I've noticed, I'd really love to hear

623
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 7: you about what actually happened.

624
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 4: The other thing is about whether the person who's done

625
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 4: the bad thing can you forgive without an acknowledgment from

626
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 4: them that they've done the bad thing. How big a

627
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 4: factor is that because sometimes, especially in a workplace where

628
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 4: you've got something to lose, it can be quite hard

629
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 4: to say I've done the wrong thing. If you say

630
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 4: you've done the wrong thing, your boss could use that

631
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 4: against you.

632
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, so that's very interesting because we already know that

633
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 7: generally the idea of forgiveness becomes much much easier if

634
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 7: someone is acknowledged. So generally most people would want to

635
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 7: say I really didn't want anything more. I just wanted

636
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 7: somebody to say I realized what I've done and I'm sorry.

637
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 7: And sometimes because of other dynamics in the workplace, where

638
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 7: someone is already thinking that could be a grievance, that

639
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 7: could be a disciplinary hearing, someone just doesn't, you know,

640
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 7: acknowledge that, so it becomes very difficult. That's where you

641
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 7: end up leaning towards the decisional forgiveness Stephen, where you say,

642
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 7: I'm going to make a decision to forgive this person anyway,

643
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 7: regardless of the fact that that has been addressed. But

644
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 7: if you're a leader, it's very important for you to

645
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 7: be able to suffacee these things and therefore create certain

646
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 7: sessions and check ins where you're able to try and

647
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 7: find out the emotional temperature of the team, so that

648
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 7: in that safe space where the acknowledgment of past heads

649
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 7: could actually not stink as much as a disciplinary you

650
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 7: remove the sting by creating a great atmosphere, some of

651
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 7: that acknowledgment can come. And it's very important for people

652
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 7: to know that they won't be replications for certain things

653
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 7: that happen there, because apology sincerity is the biggest contributor

654
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:57,240
Speaker 7: to the ease of forgiveness. But if that's not coming

655
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 7: for your own emotional health, what then do you do?

656
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 7: You lean towards decisional or you have a conversation with

657
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 7: the person.

658
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 4: Can a leader suggest to a person that they kind

659
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 4: of let go of the pain that they forgive often

660
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 4: going to be a younger person who maybe hasn't been

661
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 4: in a situation like this before.

662
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's very very tricky because the power dynamics between

663
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 7: the leader and the young employee. What you don't want

664
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,280
Speaker 7: to do is to create an environment that you're pressur

665
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 7: pressurizing the targets to just move on while in justice

666
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 7: remains unresolved. So from a leadership point of view, what

667
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 7: people are hoping for you is that you must be

668
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 7: able to we want justice from you. We want since

669
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 7: here support not the one that only looks at the

670
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 7: so called targets, but one that will administer justice and

671
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 7: make sure that people are held accountable. And you want

672
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 7: something you know like that, So as a leader is

673
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 7: very difficult. That's why you know, getting an objective party

674
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 7: like an HR person for example, at that particular time

675
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 7: might be great. Although we don't want to always outsource

676
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 7: our courage to HR, but at that particular time it

677
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 7: may be so useful because having you as a leader

678
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 7: telling people to move on might speak that was simpler.

679
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 2: Moyr organizational behavior specialists discussing forgiveness at work and how

680
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 2: teams repaired trust, learned from conflict, and rebuilt credibility while

681
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 2: still holding higher standards for the operations.

682
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,959
Speaker 4: Seven notes The best of the Money Show from this week.

683
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 2: Now shapeshifter feature Jeremy Sampson, widely regarded as the brand

684
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 2: father of branding in South Africa, spoke about a career

685
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 2: that helped shape some of the country's most iconic brands

686
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 2: over some five decades, from founding South Africa's first professional

687
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 2: branding consultancy in nineteen seventy three to bringing global expertise

688
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,879
Speaker 2: into Africa through Interbrand. His influence left and indelible mark

689
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 2: on the industry. Let's have a listen.

690
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 8: Well, if you go back to London at the end

691
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 8: of the swinging sixties, it wasn't swinging. And when you're

692
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 8: in your first job and you've only been working for

693
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 8: eighteen months two years, and then the Prime Minister of

694
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 8: the day, Harold Wilson, because the economy was so bad,

695
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 8: put a pay freeze on everyone and people forget, you know,

696
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 8: the head of the country said, your salary is now frozen,

697
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 8: you're not going to earn more. And when you're starting

698
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 8: in your career and near the bottom of the ladder.

699
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 8: And I just got married in London to a South

700
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 8: African lady and we discussed things and I looked for

701
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 8: other jobs and it was terrible over there. So I said, well,

702
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 8: it's about time I met your fakes. Let's go out

703
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 8: to South Africa and you know, going to South Africa

704
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 8: house and fitting in an application. And then they said,

705
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 8: well it might be better if you had a job

706
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 8: to go to and three letters because the post worked

707
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 8: in those days. And two weeks later I had two

708
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 8: job offers, so that made it simple. So out I

709
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 8: came and my timing was, well, I've been lucky on

710
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 8: lots of occasions. In this particular time, the timing coincided

711
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 8: with a top American design branding group called Unimark opening

712
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 8: an office in Johannesburg, so I joined them straight away

713
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 8: and that was the start of my career in South Africa.

714
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 4: I mean, I think the world of branding now and

715
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 4: we'll talk about it a bit later, if we may,

716
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 4: is sort of huge and vast and multi varied. What

717
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 4: was it like then in South Africa? Then we shouldn't

718
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,280
Speaker 4: forget in a Part eight country, so a completely different

719
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 4: environment to what we understand now.

720
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,800
Speaker 8: Absolutely, and it was more the design world. You designed

721
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 8: logos and you designed logo systems. Unimark probably your listeners

722
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 8: haven't heard of it, but it was from Chicago. It

723
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 8: had about I think eight offices around the world, and

724
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 8: they had just finished redoing the entire corporate identity of

725
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 8: the Ford Motorcorps. And I remember they had eight big manuals,

726
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 8: this thick of everything you could do and couldn't do

727
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 8: with the logo and the color and the typeface. So

728
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 8: it was actually fantastic because I was learning about systems

729
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 8: design and all sorts of things like that.

730
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 4: So in those days, if you were trying to create

731
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 4: a brand and then to make sure that your brand

732
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 4: had an impact. Nowadays people can really create a brand

733
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 4: by being clever using social media. You do need money

734
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 4: and you need organization. But in those days, I imagine

735
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 4: most of it was advertising, by which I mean paid

736
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 4: for advertising.

737
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 8: You're probably right, but now I always say, the cornerstone

738
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 8: of a brand really is the name. And then once

739
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 8: you've got the name and it's registered and you were

740
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 8: talking about it in your earlier segment. Once it's registered

741
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 8: and protected, then you need a logo, and then you

742
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 8: need color, and then you need to create a system.

743
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 8: But in those days it was just a that design

744
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 8: and that. Today you have the mission, the vision, the values,

745
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 8: what it stands for, what its purpose is. You know,

746
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 8: you've got all these layers of the onion around the

747
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 8: brand nowadays. And of course the other thing is that

748
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 8: a lot of people forget often when it comes to

749
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 8: a company, their brands are the most valuable financial assets.

750
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 4: So you're working for a bunch of Americans from Chicago.

751
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 4: You decided to go up on your own. Why did

752
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 4: you decide to do that? Was there an opportunity, Was

753
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 4: there a client you like?

754
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,839
Speaker 8: It was more complicated than that, Steven. First of all,

755
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 8: it always twelve months of the Americans was enough. And

756
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 8: I was poached to an advertising group which was the

757
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 8: precursor to Gray advertising. But you're too young to remember

758
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 8: the first mutual funds in South Africa David Abramson and

759
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 8: working on those as the designer within the ad agency,

760
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 8: and then he got fired and the agency had to

761
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 8: cut back, and on the basis that last in first out,

762
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 8: I got fired and that was after only nine months.

763
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 8: And here am I. I've been in South Africa two

764
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 8: and a half years and I'm unemployed. And I was

765
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 8: very fortunate that a printing group approached me and said,

766
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 8: we have a little studio with two people. Won't you

767
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 8: join us? And to be honest, my choice was limited,

768
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 8: so I said quickly yes, and what three years later

769
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,919
Speaker 8: we were up to about twenty people. And that's when

770
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 8: I went on my own when a major public relations

771
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 8: group in the country at the time, Roll Moronstein's and

772
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 8: Ferreira turned and said, come on, you know you need

773
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 8: to go on your own. So that was nineteen seventy three.

774
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 4: So you go through the seventies and into the eighties,

775
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 4: and the world is speeding up, it's getting more complicated.

776
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 4: Television arrived in South Africa, I mean, possibly the last

777
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 4: country on the planet that together it in nineteen seventy six.

778
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:49,879
Speaker 4: What did that mean for your business? Did it create

779
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 4: more opportunity? Did it create more competition?

780
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 8: I started the business basically producing and reports, and and

781
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 8: reports were great because you had the precision of what

782
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 8: time of the year they came out, so whether you

783
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 8: were in one of the quarters or calendar or six months.

784
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 8: And we were up to quite quickly fifteen or sixteen

785
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 8: an reports and big ones like ned Bank. I did

786
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,720
Speaker 8: for about twelve years, and that became half of the business,

787
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 8: and the logos and the systems and exhibitions and other

788
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 8: work was the other half of the business. And that

789
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 8: kept the balance going. And as you say, it was

790
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 8: evolving fast, but we developed a niche and in those

791
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 8: days it was technologically limiting. We didn't have computers. I

792
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 8: during that time became president of Society Designers of South

793
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 8: Africa and every two years, at my own expense, I'd

794
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 8: go to the World Congress and meet other people and

795
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 8: represent South Africa, which was interesting in those days, as

796
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 8: you say, it was a part eight era, and sometimes

797
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 8: it was very uncomfortable. But in nineteen eighty five at

798
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 8: the conference in Washington, they had a fantastic expo and

799
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 8: there was a display of something called Apple and the

800
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 8: first time I was conscious of Apple. And I have

801
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 8: to say that coming back to South Africa, within a

802
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 8: couple of months, we had two computers, one for my

803
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 8: number two and one for myself. It probably took me

804
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 8: a few weeks to learn how to even switch the

805
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 8: damn thing on. But so that was the start of

806
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,399
Speaker 8: my relationship with Apple, as well as computers were coming

807
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 8: into the business.

808
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 4: I mean computers, and I know they revolutionized. You know,

809
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 4: you wouldn't have had a newspaper like what became the

810
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 4: Mail and Guardian without it in the eighties. What did

811
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 4: that do for branding? I mean you could suddenly do

812
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 4: so much more, You could design so much more quickly.

813
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 8: It took a while, and I have to say that

814
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 8: I left the country in eighty seven. I was headhunted

815
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 8: and went back to London. And I went back to

816
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 8: London for five years and found that they weren't using

817
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 8: computers a tool for design in those days. They were

818
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,760
Speaker 8: behind the curve and then coming back to South Africa

819
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 8: in nineteen ninety two and representing inter brand to begin with,

820
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 8: and then brand Finance. Then we were just deluged with

821
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 8: tech as it continues today now with chat GBT, et cetera,

822
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 8: et cetera, et cetera. Knows your new mate, Claude whatever

823
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 8: you know. And this is where it's changing by the day.

824
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 4: So I mean, you've made the point that the world

825
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 4: changes and something that's sort of acceptable ex scene as

826
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 4: the way of the world on Monday, can be completely

827
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 4: swept away on Tuesday. And I was thinking a little

828
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,240
Speaker 4: bit about that. So the branding world in South Africa

829
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 4: from say nineteen eighty nine to nineteen ninety one, let

830
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 4: me just put this in context because during that same period,

831
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 4: Russia went from the Soviet Union to having the former

832
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 4: leader of the Soviet Union, Michel Gorbachev, appearing in an

833
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 4: advert for pitzat okay, I mean famously. I mean I

834
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,439
Speaker 4: looked this up because I didn't believe it at the time.

835
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 4: But the pen that Gorbachev used to dissolve the Soviet

836
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 4: Union he had to borrow from a CNN and CNN cameraman.

837
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 4: You know, it's an extraordinary story. Ted Turner kept the

838
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 4: pen in case if you were wondering, so to go

839
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 4: from a kind of era, a coldbol era for the

840
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 4: entire world, where large parts of the world were in

841
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 4: a form of repression, including here, to suddenly a lot

842
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 4: of openness in the early nineties must have just been

843
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,280
Speaker 4: the most amazing time for a branding person.

844
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:20,399
Speaker 8: Well, it was amazing because to start with, the word

845
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 8: brand wasn't used that yeash in the seventies and eighties.

846
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 8: But then as we got to the nineties, people were

847
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 8: beginning to realize that the value of companies wasn't just

848
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 8: bricks and mortar and machinery. Increasingly it was other things

849
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 8: called IP. Intellectual property and patents and copyrights were the

850
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 8: first issue, but then increasingly it became brand and that

851
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 8: area of intellectual property. Today, if I tell you the

852
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 8: top one hundred brands in the world of their market

853
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 8: cap and otherwise their share price cumulatively over thirty percent

854
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 8: is not on the balance sheet because it comes from IP,

855
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 8: the value of brands and that sort of thing, And

856
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 8: we still have the accounting world fighting with each other.

857
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 8: There is no one way of doing things.

858
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 6: Now.

859
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 8: If I say to you, and I usually get a

860
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 8: smile when I get this, and I say, what's the

861
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 8: difference between Johnny Walker whiskey and Smirnoff Vodka, And the

862
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 8: difference is because they're both owned by Diageo. That because

863
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 8: Smirnoff Vodka was acquired and therefore bought, they can put

864
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,800
Speaker 8: the value on the balance sheet. But because Johnny Walker

865
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 8: is homegrown, you can't.

866
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 4: Sure. People in the tech world now talk about a mote.

867
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 4: You need to keep innovating. You need to have something

868
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 4: that nobody else does. Was a brand then and is

869
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 4: a brand maybe now? Orso a moat.

870
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 8: Interesting question, but you know this is where sometimes logos

871
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 8: change today. Why because they were blobs in the past,

872
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 8: whereas today you want to bring them to life, you

873
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 8: want to animate them, you want to do things with

874
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 8: them on social media. And that's one of the reasons

875
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 8: people change logos today. It's very expensive and you have

876
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 8: copyright law, so you have to be very careful. But

877
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 8: a lot of people have changed their logos because they

878
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,839
Speaker 8: weren't fit for purpose in today's tech world.

879
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 4: We're going to talk a little bit about logos and

880
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 4: things that have changed, and also about brands that change.

881
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 4: And brands that fail. Jeremy Samson is your shape shift

882
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,320
Speaker 4: of this evening. He's the chaired Brand Finance Africa.

883
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,280
Speaker 1: The Money Show Shape Shifters.

884
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 4: You live in minutes to eighth the time your shape

885
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 4: shifter tonight. Jeremy Samson the chair of Brand Finance Africa.

886
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 4: Some people call him the brand Father. He's been involved

887
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 4: in branding in South Africa for so long. Showrem me

888
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 4: there's a specific brand I'd like to talk to you about,

889
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 4: both to get your view on working on it and

890
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 4: your view of it. And it's the brand of the

891
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 4: spring box of the rugby team. Am I right? Did

892
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 4: you work on it before the ninety five World Cup?

893
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 4: I mean it's had several changes over the years.

894
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 8: Just to take a short step back, Stephen, I've worked

895
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 8: with Louis Late when he ran Trip Fertilizer, and as

896
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 8: I mentioned earlier, I did a lot of ann reports

897
00:47:57,600 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 8: and I did his ann report for about ten years

898
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 8: and then he moved into Ellis Park as the head

899
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 8: of South African Rugby and he called me across and said, right,

900
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:09,439
Speaker 8: you know, there's a lot of design to do here.

901
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 8: We'll start with the transfile rugby and report and then

902
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 8: from there, we just carried on and created the Lions brand,

903
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 8: and then we had the World Cup and we did

904
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,760
Speaker 8: most of the design for that, even the banners around

905
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 8: the country, you know, the tickets and all that sort

906
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 8: of stuff. And then immediately after the World Cup there

907
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,280
Speaker 8: was huge pressure from the A and C to change

908
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 8: and as you know, in those days in South Africa

909
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 8: it was quite volatile. We were in the early days

910
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 8: of transformation. And he called me down and he said, right,

911
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 8: we've got to do something because otherwise the Springbok will

912
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,760
Speaker 8: not survive. And that started the process.

913
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 4: One of the things you did was turn it around.

914
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 8: You know, when you think of what can you do quickly?

915
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 8: You have limited options. Getting a new logo, well, that

916
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 8: would have taken a lot of argument and debate, and

917
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 8: then you have to register it and copyright it around

918
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 8: the world. So I think Argentina, Australia and New Zeena

919
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,360
Speaker 8: the rugby playing world, and that would have all taken weeks,

920
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 8: if not months. So I looked at the whole thing

921
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,760
Speaker 8: and I went away after he briefed me. We discussed

922
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 8: it one on one and I came back and I said,

923
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:23,919
Speaker 8: I think the solution is to flip it. He said,

924
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 8: what do you mean And I said, I'm going to

925
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:30,240
Speaker 8: change the direction, but that then becomes the Springbok sitting

926
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 8: on top of the Unity King Protea at the time.

927
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 8: And that's what we did. And the big thing was

928
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:39,959
Speaker 8: though we created a brand story. I'm sure you've heard

929
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 8: the brands have to have stories. Well, the first thing

930
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 8: I said was is this got or has it got

931
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 8: a story? And he said what do you mean? And

932
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 8: I said, well, you know here we are in ninety

933
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,239
Speaker 8: late nineties. How long has the Springbok been around? And

934
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 8: he said, I'm not sure.

935
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 4: Nineteen nine six. Everyone will tell you.

936
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 8: Well, we didn't know that at the time. And the

937
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 8: answer was a scrap book in Stellenbosch and Danny Craven

938
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 8: who'd been running south afton Roagan, and in that scrap

939
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 8: book was the history and they brought it up to

940
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 8: Johannesburg to Ellis Park and I took some of my

941
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 8: team down there and we went through it, and out

942
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 8: of that we were able to track the logos from

943
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 8: nineteen oh six and we had six iterations and we

944
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 8: drew them up as they'd never been drawn out properly before.

945
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:26,839
Speaker 8: We put it into a brochure and then we wrote

946
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 8: a story about the history because in fact it goes

947
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 8: back to I think is about eighteen eighty seven. They

948
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 8: only had a logo from about nineteen oh six, and

949
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 8: we said, this is the evolution of the Spring Book

950
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,280
Speaker 8: and brands can change because they'll stand for different things

951
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 8: through history. And in fact I wrote the story, we

952
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 8: produced a brochure and that's how we marketed it and

953
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:52,800
Speaker 8: we launched it as well as the new Springbook logo

954
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 8: for the New South Africa.

955
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 2: That was Jeremy Simpson talking about his career that helped

956
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 2: shape some of the country's most iconic brands.

957
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:05,760
Speaker 1: You were listening to The Money Show's Best Bits.

958
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 2: You've been listening to the Best Bits of The Money Show.

959
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 2: A digest of just some of the best interviews from

960
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:13,879
Speaker 2: the show this week. If you'd like to hear more,

961
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 2: go to our website or your favorite podcast app and

962
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 2: search for The Money Show. Thanks for listening. We'll be

963
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 2: back on The Money Show on six pm Monday. Have

964
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:24,280
Speaker 2: a great weekend.