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Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen Cribbits on seven

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Speaker 1: o two. Let's walk little.

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Speaker 2: The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you

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Speaker 2: by ABS of corporate and investment banking, balancing economic growth

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Speaker 2: with ecosystems. That's how they're invested in your story. Good evening,

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Speaker 2: seven minutes after six. I'm Stephen Crotis. Welcome to the

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Speaker 2: Money Show. So much to come tonight, and I mean

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Speaker 2: keep talking about the good news. The fuel price dropping,

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Speaker 2: the announcement coming through today, finally from Wednesday morning. Call

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Speaker 2: it the stroke of midnight on Tuesday. If you like

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Speaker 2: fuel costs coming down quite dramatically actually, and as a

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Speaker 2: result of that, in some cases, depending on where you are,

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Speaker 2: you'll be able to get a leader for under twenty

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Speaker 2: round again, they'll be their lowest I think in about

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Speaker 2: four years, so that would have probably been doing the

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Speaker 2: pandemic there were anything like where they are now. I

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Speaker 2: don't know how much of a difference it makes to

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Speaker 2: your life. It might make a huge difference if you

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Speaker 2: run a transport company, if you move things around, or

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Speaker 2: if you're moving children around all the time. For many

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Speaker 2: other people, probably not that big a difference, but even

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Speaker 2: so just does show how things are trending. And of

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Speaker 2: course it's got very little to do with us, except

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Speaker 2: that our currency is improving and that has played a factor.

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Speaker 2: Fascinated by this new deal with ninety one and a

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Speaker 2: sun Lum. We'll speak to the CEO at ninety one,

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Speaker 2: Hendrick de toy in just a moment and sort of

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Speaker 2: ask him how that's all going to work. It did

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Speaker 2: close today. Finally, I'll also slip in a question about

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Speaker 2: what he would like to hear from the President next week.

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Speaker 2: How do we keep the sort of optimism that everyone's

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Speaker 2: talking about going. Lots of talk at the moment about

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Speaker 2: the electricity industry or fin twenty four more reporting about it.

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Speaker 2: There'll be a big meeting with government and lenders and

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Speaker 2: all the rest. I think there's already been one in fact,

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Speaker 2: then try to sort that out. It does look like

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Speaker 2: that's getting more and more complicated. Also numbers today the

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Speaker 2: abs A PMI, the Purchasing Managers Index, showing that more

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Speaker 2: people are sort of a bit optimistic about the future. Essentially,

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Speaker 2: we're seeing that business activity is rising and what that

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Speaker 2: I think means for the future. We will speak to

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Speaker 2: the Financial Intelligence Center. They're acting director as Peter Smith.

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Speaker 2: It's a little technical, but as I understand it, at

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Speaker 2: the moment, only SARS has the ability to conduct a

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Speaker 2: lifestyle order on you. So if, for example, they I

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Speaker 2: put on on Instagram or somewhere that I am driving

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Speaker 2: a new Lamborghinian and I've put pictures of that, they're

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Speaker 2: adible to say, hmm, we don't think he gets paid

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Speaker 2: quite that amount of money. Let's go and have a

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Speaker 2: look at his bank account. So we're going, you know,

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Speaker 2: and the go and investigate from there. The Financial Intelligence

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Speaker 2: Center going to get the same kind of power. But interestingly,

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Speaker 2: the process would seem to start with any organ of government.

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Speaker 2: So for example, the mayor of Johannesburg could decide, I

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Speaker 2: want to know what Stephen Critis's finances are and ask

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Speaker 2: the if I see to do that, can you imagine

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Speaker 2: how that could complicated? That could get Now I can

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Speaker 2: understand the argument, Steven's a contractor with Joe Berg. We

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Speaker 2: want to know if he's getting kickbacks or paying kickbacks.

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Speaker 2: But what if they use it for other means. We'll

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Speaker 2: talk to the Financial Intelligence Center about that. I think

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Speaker 2: that's going to be important. Have you ever wondered why

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Speaker 2: you feel at home when you go into some places

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Speaker 2: and not when you go into others. And why it

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Speaker 2: is that you'll see a brand and just sort of

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Speaker 2: feel a little bit better. And let me just say,

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Speaker 2: every time I see Jamie Oliver, I feel worse because

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Speaker 2: I really am not a fan of Jamie Oliver. But

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Speaker 2: we'll speak to someone who's actually spent her life looking

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Speaker 2: up the science of that loyalty, Amanda Cromote as a

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Speaker 2: founder and CEO of Truth from seven thirty. If you

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Speaker 2: miss it tonight might well be worth going back and

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Speaker 2: listening to the podcast. When do you think the Financial

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Speaker 2: Intelligence Center should be able to look at your finances?

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Speaker 2: What would trigger that? In your view? Would it be

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Speaker 2: you doing a deal with government, as we've seen so

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Speaker 2: many sort of crooked deals it seems with all of

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Speaker 2: the inquiries. Would it be something else? O double one

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Speaker 2: double A three oh seven two two one four four six,

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Speaker 2: O five six seven and O seven two seven oh

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Speaker 2: two one seven oh two. When do you believe someone

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Speaker 2: should be able to conduct a lifestyle? I'll audit on

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Speaker 2: you tonight eleven after six.

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Speaker 3: The Laney Show with Stephen Krudis Live on ninety two

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Speaker 3: point seven and one six FM streaming on the Prime

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Speaker 3: Media Plus.

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Speaker 1: NAP and DStv channel eight five six.

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Speaker 2: Well, the completion today of that massive transaction between ninety

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Speaker 2: one and Sunlam Investment Management, ninety one Limited now owns

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Speaker 2: all the shares and Sunlam Investment Management Proprietary Limited. The

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Speaker 2: move also means ninety one will be the primary active

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Speaker 2: investment manager for Sunlam's local and global product Sunlam appoints

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Speaker 2: ninety one as a permanent manager for Sunlam's investments UK.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot to it. Hendrick De toy is the

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Speaker 2: founder and CEO at ninety one. Hendrick, Good evening. I

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Speaker 2: do appreciate the time. I'm sure it's been a long

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Speaker 2: day and it's been a long road to get here.

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Speaker 2: You must be breathing a sigh of relief that it's

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Speaker 2: finally all done.

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Speaker 4: Good evening, Stephen and listeners. Of course, it's been a

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Speaker 4: long road. I think this started in late twenty in

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty three, actually first discussion, and we've reached it

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Speaker 4: now late twenty twenty three, an hour in the beginning

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Speaker 4: of and on the second of February, and many people

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Speaker 4: who listen will remember the importance of the second of February.

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Speaker 4: Second of February nineteen ninety was when FW Mclark made

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Speaker 4: his famous speech which changed our country for the better.

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Speaker 2: That's an interesting date to tire to enric so your

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Speaker 2: strategy from here, you actually have another I think four

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Speaker 2: hundred billion rounds worth of assets to manage.

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Speaker 4: Are you approximately four hundred approximately?

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Speaker 2: I mean at that point, you know, give or take.

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Speaker 4: Maybe a little more with the market lately, but roughly yes.

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Speaker 2: Are you expecting to make any major change in strategy?

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Speaker 2: I mean I presume they won't be much change at first.

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Speaker 4: Steven, We've had a long time to prepare and therefore

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Speaker 4: everything that had to be done in a sense has

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Speaker 4: been done, and we had lots of negotiation with the

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Speaker 4: Commission as well. All our commitments have been made. So

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Speaker 4: for us, for the clients of Somelm Investment Management, the

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Speaker 4: perstwhile clients of Somelm Investment Management, this is business as usual,

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Speaker 4: except supported by a far stronger platform, and therefore they

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Speaker 4: should expect to benefit.

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Speaker 5: We have.

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Speaker 4: Ninety one, on the other hand, has gained some very

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Speaker 4: good people from the sun Lum Investment Management team. We're

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Speaker 4: all very motivated. I walked past their desk today motivated

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Speaker 4: to do great new things with us, and in particular

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Speaker 4: where the platform the two platforms are, the combined platform

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Speaker 4: is much stronger is on the fixed income side because

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Speaker 4: they had some different skills from us, and we're very

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Speaker 4: excited to take some offerings not only to the sun

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Speaker 4: On client base, but also to the market, the third

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Speaker 4: party market out there.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I presume you've had no one who's been

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Speaker 2: a client of some them for years saying I'm taking

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Speaker 2: my money out. I don't like ninety one. I mean,

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Speaker 2: people are going to keep it there and they're going

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Speaker 2: to hope to reap the benefit.

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Speaker 4: In fact, we've had support additional support from certain clients.

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Speaker 4: There were one or two areas where there was an

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Speaker 4: overweight issue i e. Where they were too exposed to

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Speaker 4: both firms, where one understands that people could prepare to downweight,

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Speaker 4: but nothing quickly. And of course the soul of investment

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Speaker 4: management team business was predominantly funded by either the Sun

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Speaker 4: and balance sheet or the sub distribution network, so of

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Speaker 4: course that comes along. There's a great deal of commitment

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Speaker 4: from the Slalom management team and leadership team to support

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Speaker 4: they now preferred active investment manager which is ninety one.

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Speaker 4: So we've felt we have good support, but we think

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Speaker 4: the real story is about what happens over the next

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Speaker 4: a decade or two, because it's a fifteen year deal,

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Speaker 4: but we see it as a as a partnership for

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Speaker 4: a very very long term, as we see all our partnerships.

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Speaker 2: So I was going to say, I mean, the deal

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Speaker 2: goes for fifteen years, what happens after that? You would

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Speaker 2: prefer what do the EU call it? Closer and ever

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Speaker 2: closer union?

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Speaker 4: Now, I think in this case, as with many of

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Speaker 4: our clients, you know, it's also the day at which

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Speaker 4: ninety one term thirty five years old. Second of February

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Speaker 4: nineteen ninety one we formally kicked off. So we've been

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Speaker 4: around for thirty five years and I've been privileged to

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Speaker 4: be around since the beginning, and I can tell you

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Speaker 4: we have very very long client relationships. We always built

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Speaker 4: for the long term. We work with our clients for

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Speaker 4: the long term, and we hope that in fifteen years

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Speaker 4: that's on our management say this was the best thing

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Speaker 4: we've ever done. They've already made good money. They received

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Speaker 4: shares in ninety one which have gone up substantially since

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Speaker 4: the deal was announced and the terms were agreed, but

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Speaker 4: that they say our business is stronger and that we

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Speaker 4: have a better active investment offering to give our clients,

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Speaker 4: and therefore we want to continue working this way as

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Speaker 4: opposed to the way we previously work by trying to

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Speaker 4: own a business like that one hundred percent and maybe

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Speaker 4: not achieve all our objectives. So we hope this partnership works.

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Speaker 4: And of course SANDOM has always been a large, clear

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Speaker 4: client of ninety one's and now it's just a bigger client,

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Speaker 4: and we hope to grow with them as they should

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Speaker 4: grow with us.

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Speaker 2: I realized you won't want to focus on the negative,

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Speaker 2: but I mean it would be I imagine after fifteen years

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Speaker 2: quite difficult to unwind it.

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Speaker 4: That's not a negative, that's a great positive for ninety

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Speaker 4: one because we want to keep our client. So exactly,

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Speaker 4: you've hit it, you've hit the nail on the head.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well then they're be stuck with you one way

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Speaker 2: or another, by the sounds of it, but happily so hap.

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Speaker 4: Happily partnered as is our other should be our other

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Speaker 4: large relationships, because in the end, what's happening in the

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Speaker 4: South African market, I think that's important to understand because

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Speaker 4: we haven't been creating as many jobs as we should

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Speaker 4: have been. The formal what we call the institutional industry

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Speaker 4: i e. Pension funds have not been growing as fast

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Speaker 4: as possible, but individual savings and discretionary savings have been.

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Speaker 4: This is a way for ninety one to participate in

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Speaker 4: another sector where individual savings are growing. We tend to

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Speaker 4: operate at the up end at the wealth management end,

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Speaker 4: but not as strongly at the insurance end, and therefore

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Speaker 4: this is a big opportunity for us.

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Speaker 2: Hendrik, I'm glad you talk about jobs because I didn't

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Speaker 2: want to ask you. The President is giving a State

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Speaker 2: of the Nation address next week. We've seen a lot

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Speaker 2: of optimism about South Africa. I mean, apart from today,

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Speaker 2: the JC really speaking has been doing very nicely. What

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Speaker 2: would you like to hear from President Samopause the next week?

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Speaker 2: To keep this optimism going? Where does government, the coalition,

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Speaker 2: all of the people involve need to focus next.

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Speaker 4: Stephen What we'd like to hear which I've been encouraging

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Speaker 4: our leaders to talk about for the rest of the year.

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Speaker 4: Not long list of objectives. It's a small number of

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Speaker 4: things that we have to write to get right. What

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Speaker 4: are the must win battles? I mean, clearly, the mud

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Speaker 4: Longer Commission is giving us enormous food for thought, and

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Speaker 4: the must win battle is we need to get corruption

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Speaker 4: under control. We need to get our security services and

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Speaker 4: our law enforcement agencies working properly, and very importantly, we

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Speaker 4: need to make sure the country's business friendly and ultimately

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Speaker 4: the citizens can live and go about their business safely.

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Speaker 4: If we start doing that, we can think about foreign

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Speaker 4: affairs where we have huge room for improvement. We can

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Speaker 4: think about more ambitious projects. But interestingly, there is a

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Speaker 4: scenario planning exercise coming out which in nineteen ninety one

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Speaker 4: there was a scenario planning exercise done in Montfleur which

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Speaker 4: guided the incoming government. There's another one coming which will

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Speaker 4: driven by the Bureau of Economic Research, which I think

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Speaker 4: will give our political leaders very very clear guidance on

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Speaker 4: what they should not do and what they must do,

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Speaker 4: but for Heaven's sake, we should do.

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Speaker 2: Do you buy all the optimism hend record? Do you

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Speaker 2: have a little bit of cynicism about it now?

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Speaker 4: I mean the optimism was largely driven's by two things. Firstly,

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Speaker 4: the international markets completely ignored South African assets that become

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Speaker 4: too cheap. And then I think the man at the

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Speaker 4: moment last year as a governor of our central bank,

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Speaker 4: it's getting a bit of flat that he didn't cut

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Speaker 4: this week, but Lesta drove Gonyago drove interest rates or

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Speaker 4: inflation down. With my setting new expectations, that stability is

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Speaker 4: attracting foreign capital in the debt markets, that has strengthened

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Speaker 4: the rand, that has created interest in the equity markets,

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Speaker 4: along with a commodity boom boom we've seen. I think

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Speaker 4: all of those are good things, but we didn't create

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Speaker 4: that wave as a as a as a as a government,

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Speaker 4: or as a nation. We must now jump on this

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Speaker 4: wave where price stability is expected, where macro stability is appreciated,

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Speaker 4: and start doing the things that create profit growth and

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Speaker 4: jobs growth that will ultimately sustain the government, the fiscus

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Speaker 4: and will sustain employment to allow people to move ahead.

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Speaker 4: So I think I would like to see very few actions,

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Speaker 4: but clear action in the sonar that we can deliver.

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Speaker 4: And let's let's let's aim for some simple wins rather

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Speaker 4: than lofty goals of five percent of growth. We're we're

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Speaker 4: at under two percent growth. We need to just get

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Speaker 4: ourselves back to three percent and then life will be

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Speaker 4: It'll be easier to plan from there, and I'm confident

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Speaker 4: that that is possible, particularly if our G and U

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Speaker 4: starts functioning as it sude as it should.

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Speaker 2: Henrik to Toy really appreciate the time on that, Thank

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Speaker 2: you very much. Indeed, Hendrik to Tooy is the founder

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Speaker 2: and CEO at ninety one The Money Show.

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Speaker 1: With Steven on seven O two seven.

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Speaker 2: Two twenty one minutes after six. Well, let's pick up

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Speaker 2: on the story. Optimism. Business conditions appear to be improving,

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Speaker 2: the abs of Purchasing Managers Index rising to forty eight

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Speaker 2: point seven points in January from just forty point five

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Speaker 2: in December. Still below the fifty mark, but still a

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Speaker 2: lot better. Selo so kele Listney economist that abscess cib

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Speaker 2: or absume economists, I should say so, all good evening,

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Speaker 2: Still below the magic fifty mark, but still the big

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Speaker 2: jump in the index.

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Speaker 5: Thanks for having me, David, always a pleasure speaking to

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Speaker 5: you and your listeners. Yeah. So we had a very

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Speaker 5: positive start today, especially given where we come from from

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Speaker 5: the end of the last year where we saw the

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Speaker 5: PMI really declining by a lot so when you look

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Speaker 5: at the Genuary data, the PMI increased by eight point

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Speaker 5: two points to fully eight point seven points. Yes, it's

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Speaker 5: still below the fifteen years old mark, but we take

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Speaker 5: easy wings where we can. And when you look at

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Speaker 5: the bean drivers, the increase was was quite broad based.

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Speaker 5: So actually one of the induses went about fifty, which

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Speaker 5: is the index that tracks output, so that basically says

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Speaker 5: that out would growth accelerated at the start of the year.

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Speaker 2: I mean, as you say, the business activity index, I

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Speaker 2: mean that clearly tells us that something seems to be

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Speaker 2: moving in the economy. He says, hopefully.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, looks as I normally say, it's just one fold

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Speaker 5: we'd like to see, you know, sustainable improvement before we

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Speaker 5: can infer any sort of strength to the sector. But

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Speaker 5: look at the start today is good, and we are

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Speaker 5: expecting a good year in terms of economic growth. I mean,

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Speaker 5: we have a very strong at least compared to CONCERNSUS

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Speaker 5: forecasts for growth. They say, we have one point nine,

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Speaker 5: which is growth that we haven't seen I think since

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Speaker 5: around twenty fifth, twenty to fifteen. And this compares to

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Speaker 5: the one point four that we saw last year.

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Speaker 2: It does seem according to your survey, it's some problems

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Speaker 2: with exports. So I mean, what's happening there. I mean

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Speaker 2: six months ago would have said, is that Trump terras?

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Speaker 2: I don't know if Trump terrors are having that big

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Speaker 2: an impact on us now.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So in terms of experts, the story, yeah, seems

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Speaker 5: to be more on the rand strengthening. So because the

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Speaker 5: rand strengthened by a lot since the end of last year. Now,

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Speaker 5: in terms of innings, I have had expert expert in US,

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Speaker 5: but at the same time you have importers that are

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Speaker 5: sharing right because the rend has improved, improved a bid

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Speaker 5: and also for inflation peoples. Is you know, although we

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Speaker 5: saw a bit of a tick up in the index

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Speaker 5: that measures input costs in the manusacturing sector, I mean

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Speaker 5: it remains quite quite subjute thanks to the stronger range.

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Speaker 5: So you know, this end is hating experts US, but

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Speaker 5: you know benefiting as an inflation.

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Speaker 2: So I mean, do you think that a stronger rand

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Speaker 2: is maybe improving optimism? I mean they expected business conditions

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Speaker 2: in six months time. How's that looking?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: So that's star Ran. The story is quite interesting obviously

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Speaker 5: to your previous speaker here, uh, and I want to

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Speaker 5: say that let's not underestimate the role that a weaker

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Speaker 5: dollar has played here. Yes, essays fundamentals have improved. I

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Speaker 5: mean we're seeing reforms moving the right direction, and one

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Speaker 5: of the notable reforms that has pushed the rent in

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Speaker 5: the right direction is one where we move to a

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Speaker 5: lower inflation target, as your previous speaker noted. So that's

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Speaker 5: that in terms of the rent. And then in terms

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Speaker 5: of what manufacturers expecting in about six months time, yes,

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Speaker 5: we saw a bit of with decline, but in level terms,

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Speaker 5: so we're looking at the levels that are stronger than

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Speaker 5: what we saw on average in twenty twenty five. So

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Speaker 5: expectations are still quite positive.

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Speaker 2: And sellos K, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: The absoure economists there, just interesting to see the optimism. Saiddle,

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Speaker 2: thank you. Twenty six minutes after six the Money Show,

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Speaker 2: Sanamonga's portfolio manager from old Mutual Investment Group Tana. What

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Speaker 2: were you and I always talking about precious metals at

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Speaker 2: the moment, but certainly this morning disaster and then quite

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Speaker 2: a long day of recovery.

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Speaker 7: Hi, Stephen, and then good evening to your listeners. I mean,

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Speaker 7: this disaster started on Friday when we saw you know,

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Speaker 7: the all the games that we saw in the precious

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Speaker 7: metals you today just wiped out. And you know, there

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Speaker 7: was the key question, is this the beginning of the end?

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Speaker 7: And I suppose there's been a few jitterism in the

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Speaker 7: in the market that could have driven some of these

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Speaker 7: you know, precious metals declines and you know those chat

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Speaker 7: there's chat about Kevin Walsh been nominated as as the

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Speaker 7: next fit chair. He is more hawkish, so you know,

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Speaker 7: the markets believing the user is going to have a

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Speaker 7: tightest dance on inflation. Hence tariffs could have been a driver.

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Speaker 7: But I think what we saw in SOO Friday is

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Speaker 7: actually the CME changing the mechanism around the margin calls

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Speaker 7: from a six dollar margin call to a t more

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Speaker 7: of a flexible or floating mechanism, and that created a

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Speaker 7: liquidity event because you know, as prices rise, the margin

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Speaker 7: call required increases with that. And I think we just

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Speaker 7: saw you know, speculators in the market trying to cover

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Speaker 7: their positions, and also saw some regulatory intervention within China,

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Speaker 7: particularly in the silver market. But I think all of

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Speaker 7: this sort of just created once again an opportunity for

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Speaker 7: investors who who want to get into the precious metals

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Speaker 7: for the more longer term structural underlying demand drivers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I see what you mean, shop right. They I

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Speaker 2: mean in their six month update today up until December

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Speaker 2: an interesting comment about how they're keeping prices down, and

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think their inflation over the six months

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Speaker 2: was two point seven percent install inflation, I mean, and

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Speaker 2: that's working for them, right, I mean, it must be

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Speaker 2: putting so much pressure on their supplies, but people are

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Speaker 2: going back to check us.

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Speaker 5: In shop right.

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Speaker 7: I think. I think that's also part of the reason

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Speaker 7: why in that update the mission that they've grown two

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Speaker 7: point three times ahead of a head of the market.

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Speaker 7: It's this promotional activity that they can do to sort

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Speaker 7: of maintain that revenue growth. But I think another way

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Speaker 7: to look at it is just you know, unpacking everything

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Speaker 7: against client to see what's actually happening with volumes, especially

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Speaker 7: when you compare it to the release release update. I

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Speaker 7: actually thought it was more of a mixed of a

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Speaker 7: mixed update given the deflection towards the back end of

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Speaker 7: the year. But you know who we've I was listening

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Speaker 7: to your previous qualers. Now it's been a tough it's

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Speaker 7: been a tough environment for the South Afrin consume and

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Speaker 7: we've seen it with the with the retail updates and recently,

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Speaker 7: but we're hoping for you know, again the wind for

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Speaker 7: from the precious metals to help alleviate that. From this

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Speaker 7: good point of view.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and then Pepcoll today also quite a strong result

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Speaker 2: from them, and we've sort of come to expect that.

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Speaker 7: We've come to expect that, but I mean it's also

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Speaker 7: a little bit of a slowdown and really new growth

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Speaker 7: given the high base of last year.

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Speaker 5: But I mean it's it's a this is a very

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Speaker 5: very strong company.

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Speaker 7: They've had lots of the quisitions last year, but they're

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Speaker 7: still showing quite decent like for like growth, but particularly

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Speaker 7: within the centic division where we saw increasing in credit

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Speaker 7: sales and that model seems to be doing quite well

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Speaker 7: for them.

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Speaker 2: Indeed. Tona Mangay, thank you so much. Really appreciate the

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Speaker 2: time portfolio manager from old mutual investment groups so much

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Speaker 2: to say about some of what's happening in CHOPWRIGHTE and Pepcorf.

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Speaker 2: You consider the really big role they play in our

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Speaker 2: society nowadays. See with the money show, it's just one

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Speaker 2: six point.

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Speaker 1: Thirty seven to seven two one.

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Speaker 2: Twenty one minutes to seven the time. So I was

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Speaker 2: thinking and just going through some of the results from

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Speaker 2: a Shop Right today, and we all know kind of

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Speaker 2: how well they've done. This is what they say about

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Speaker 2: their liquor sales. So they've got two sets of liquor shops.

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Speaker 2: One is from Shopright, one is from Checkers. The Shop

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Speaker 2: Right liquor shop increased their sales by ten point one percent,

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Speaker 2: and six months to the end of December, the Checkers

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Speaker 2: liquor shop, we're up by twelve point seven percent. Now

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Speaker 2: here's my question. If you're moving booze at the rate

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Speaker 2: that Shop Right is moving booze right now, and then

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Speaker 2: you increase it by let's just call it ten twelve percent,

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Speaker 2: where's it all going? Who's drinking it? And And I

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Speaker 2: realize that there's several things I think happening in the

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Speaker 2: alcohol industry all at once. The one is that where

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Speaker 2: they can, some people are trying to keep the price

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Speaker 2: of things like some beers really quite low basically to

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Speaker 2: keep people drinking. Proposes what you do if you of

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Speaker 2: moving a sort of fast moving consumer good or whatever

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Speaker 2: you want to call it. I think something else is

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Speaker 2: happening too, which is everything I read tells me. And

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Speaker 2: you see this if you go into into bottle stores

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Speaker 2: or so I'm told that certain whiskys and sort of

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Speaker 2: more expensive liquors like that, there's a whiskey oversupply at

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Speaker 2: the moment. Whiskey and oil, what do they have in common?

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Speaker 2: There's too much of them, and that's why you see

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Speaker 2: some incredible value for money specials. Things that people wouldn't

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Speaker 2: normally be able to buy suddenly are much cheaper. So

437
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's pushing up volumes. I do

438
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 2: have a couple of other questions, though, So people are

439
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 2: clearly buying it, clearly they are drinking it. Are we

440
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 2: seeing increases in the amount of alcohol that people are drinking?

441
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 2: There was a time it was believed in South Africa

442
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,679
Speaker 2: that only about a third of the population actually had

443
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 2: ever drunk alcohol, and so one third was drinking an

444
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 2: awful lot. But I think that's been sort of disabused now.

445
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 2: The second thing is that around the world and many

446
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 2: other markets, people are drinking less alcohol per person, and

447
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 2: yet that doesn't seem to be happening here. And I'm

448
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 2: not sure, but it is very interesting to see what's

449
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 2: going on it their messages while I'm talking about this,

450
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 2: saying there's a sort of class of people that are

451
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 2: buying very expensive oldcol So it's not more alcohol being sold,

452
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 2: but it's the type of alcohol at premium. Hey, maybe

453
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 2: you're onto something there, especially if something that you thought

454
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 2: was out of out of your price range suddenly is

455
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 2: within your price range even though it's still quite expensive,

456
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 2: maybe you will buy it there. But what is driving

457
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 2: this huge increase in what's happening to the smaller local

458
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 2: liquor stores? Are they just going to the wall because

459
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 2: of shopwright, checkers and others? There are many of others

460
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 2: that can pay as well. Of course, your faults please No.

461
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 2: Seven two seven two one eighteen minutes to seven.

462
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 3: The Money Show with Stephen Kruti's Live on ninety two

463
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 3: point seven and one o six f M streaming on

464
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 3: the Prime Media Plus NAP.

465
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: And DStv channel eight five six.

466
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,360
Speaker 2: Well, just waiting to hear your views on the situation

467
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 2: around what happened. Of course, when you look at how

468
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 2: much alcohol is being sold from some of the bigger

469
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 2: outlets now, does seem that their numbers are increasing? Oh

470
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,439
Speaker 2: seven two seven oh two one, seven oh two. I

471
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 2: had a situation the other day, so I recently had

472
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 2: a puncher and this is one of those things that's irritating.

473
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 2: It's not as irritating as it used to be because

474
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 2: instead of having to stop on the side of the

475
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 2: road forever and ever and ever what you were, what

476
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 2: I was able to do is just sort of get

477
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 2: myself to a petrol station, pump it up, and they

478
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 2: very helpfully put in a plug and it costs you know,

479
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 2: one hundred hundred and fifty round nothing like. It's not

480
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 2: a huge drama. But at the end of the operation,

481
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 2: the person who did it, and they've done a very

482
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 2: good job, said to me, you can't pay for it

483
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 2: with your card, so for me it means I can't

484
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 2: pay for it with my phone. They required cash, and

485
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 2: I had no cash on me. The ATM at the

486
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 2: petrol station for some reason wouldn't give me cash. And

487
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 2: we had a long discussion because you want to give

488
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 2: the person cash and you want to sort of sort

489
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 2: it out. And then the end we agreed on e

490
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 2: Wallatt and everyone walked away happy. Was probably happier because

491
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 2: it had saved my day. That certainly we were all

492
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,360
Speaker 2: very happy. Well, how often you come across a situation

493
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: like that nowadays where you can't pay in the way

494
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 2: that you would normally expect, and for something that really

495
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 2: does have to be paid for now can't be paid

496
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 2: for tomorrow. What's happened in that situation? How did it end?

497
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 2: Seven to two at one seven two or seven two

498
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 2: seven oh two one seven o two.

499
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 1: Seven oh two with Stephen Kritis Email him on Stephen

500
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: at seven o two dot co dot z.

501
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 2: We're more reporting today suggesting the Financial Intelligence Center is

502
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 2: going to get the power to learn a lot more

503
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 2: about your personal finances. At the moment, the only organization

504
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 2: that can really conduct a lifestyle audit on you is SARS.

505
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 2: You'll have heard of the amusing instagram to see is

506
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: driving a Lamborghinea. Their investigations will then go from there.

507
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 2: Now under the General Laws Amendment bill that's going through

508
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 2: the public consultation process, the Financial Intelligence Center, which already

509
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 2: monitors money flowing into and out of bank accounts, would

510
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 2: get the same kind of power. Peter Smith is the

511
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 2: acting director of the Financial Intelligence Center. Peter, good evening,

512
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 2: thank you for your time. You already have some useful powers.

513
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 2: What kind of power would this give you, Peter Smith,

514
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 2: I don't know if you're there or if perhaps you're

515
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 2: not able to hear us. I understand was there a

516
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 2: moment ago. It seems to have disappeared. Now this does

517
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 2: happened sometimes in zoom. We'll try and get him back

518
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 2: in just a moment and just see if we're able

519
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 2: to see if we're able to get him back in

520
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 2: the meantime, let's hear from the head of forensic at

521
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 2: EANs Evehn good evening. From what I can see, this

522
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 2: would basically mean that the Financial Intelligence Center could be

523
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 2: asked by any organ of government to conduct a financial

524
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 2: audit on me and go from there. Is that the

525
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 2: right interpretation of the proposal.

526
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 8: Is the right interpretation, Stephen. And what it gives the

527
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 8: state is the powers to proactively investigate suspicions of money laundering.

528
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 8: And you'll recall from the gray list in one of

529
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 8: the criticisms by the FCTF was that South Africa is

530
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 8: not doing enough proactively to identify and investigate money laundering.

531
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 8: So this essentially is designed to cure that criticism. And

532
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 8: there's a spate of changes that have been introduced by

533
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,239
Speaker 8: the new legislation.

534
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 2: Okay, would they be able to just decide, well, that

535
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 2: was unexpected. I have to tell you, Steve, and I

536
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 2: gather that didn't come from you.

537
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 8: No, absolutely not.

538
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 6: You know, it would have been surprised, but it would

539
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 6: have made things more interesting. Okay, we are trying to

540
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 6: get hold of another guest on this channel who's supposed

541
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 6: to join us from the Financial Intelligence Center. There's something

542
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 6: that's probably gone wrong there. Let's get back to our

543
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 6: boring subject. Are we compared to that? So what would

544
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 6: it mean that the Financial Intelligence Center would be able

545
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 6: to just decide we want to investigate Stephen Curtus for

546
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 6: the purposes of clarity or could they have to be

547
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 6: asked by someone to investigate. I think they would need

548
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 6: to be asked by a government entity, and this includes municipalities,

549
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 6: government departments, and when asked, they will then provide this

550
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 6: information to whatever investigating authority requires this information to pursue

551
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 6: a potential investigation where someone's lifestyle is not commensurate to

552
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 6: the cleared income. And what we must always remember is

553
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 6: that the lifestyle audit is a red flag audit. It's

554
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 6: not evidence before a court of law. It just signifies

555
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 6: that someone is potentially living beyond their means, and then

556
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 6: those bodies will have to do some investigation.

557
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 8: Nobody is going to be prosecuted by then a disciplinary

558
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 8: process when the criminal court, unless the state has the

559
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 8: ability to prove whatever concerns they are that emanate from

560
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 8: the lifestyle audit. So what it does give the state

561
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 8: is the ability to proactively investigate suspicious lifestyles unexplained. Well,

562
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 8: so you know, if you've been driving a Ferrari for

563
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 8: the last few years and you're declared income to SARS

564
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,959
Speaker 8: is less than half a million a year, those are

565
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 8: the types of things those individuals need to be very

566
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 8: nervous because this is going to give the power to

567
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 8: state to take these further. It is something that SARS

568
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 8: has been using for quite some time, so it's not

569
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 8: novel in that respect, but it just goes a lot broader. Now, Stephen, Stephen,

570
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 8: I'm going to ask you to just stay with us

571
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 8: for a moment because I do want your view and

572
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 8: I want to continue this. But we are joined now

573
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 8: by the acting Director of the Financial Intelligence Center, Peter Smith.

574
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 8: A Peter, good evening. I'm glad you've been able to

575
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 8: join us. Sorry about the technical difficulties we've heard from

576
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 8: Stephen Powell how the important this could be for you,

577
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 8: the ability to conduct a financial audit on someone. If

578
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 8: someone is being investigated, if there is an order being

579
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 8: conducted on them, would you have to tell them first?

580
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 7: Good?

581
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 9: Often INSTI myropologies that I could enjoy a bit earlier. No,

582
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,479
Speaker 9: I think just a bit clear at the moment as

583
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 9: the law stands now, if I see is within its

584
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 9: powers to conduct a lifestyle audit, if it's done in

585
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 9: following up a suspicious trail of money flows, or for instance,

586
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 9: where we've had reports of suspicious activity and as part

587
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 9: of our analysis and following the money, we could also

588
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 9: include doing the lifestyle audit in respect of that person,

589
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 9: and that information would be made available for further investigation

590
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 9: to our investigating authorities. What we cannot do at the

591
00:32:55,040 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 9: moment is do a lifestyle audit. For instance, where an

592
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 9: entity wants to employ a person, they first want to

593
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 9: do a background check, so there's nothing suspicious about the person.

594
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 9: But for other reasons, an authority they want to have

595
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 9: more information about either people in their service or people

596
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 9: that they may want to employ, et cetera. And in

597
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 9: those instances we cannot currently do a lifestyle audit, but

598
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 9: the proposed amendments allow of the FOC in such instances

599
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 9: also to conduct a lifestyle ordit.

600
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 2: Okay, So, if for example, I was going to work

601
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 2: for the City of Johannesburg, they can conduct They could

602
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 2: ask you to conduct a lifestyle and audit into me.

603
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 2: Could it also mean they could investigate that you would

604
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 2: be able to investigate my partner, or my brother or

605
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 2: someone connected to me.

606
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 9: They would first have to obtain your consent for that,

607
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 9: and they would have to obtain the relevant information from

608
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 9: the person who will be the same trick of the

609
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 9: lifestyle order that I would be made available to there.

610
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 9: If I see that, we would then be able to

611
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 9: compare with other information at our disposal to as mister

612
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:15,919
Speaker 9: Ballat say, just earlier, to see whether the person's ostensible

613
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 9: income supports the lifestyle that they lead, and that information

614
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 9: can then lead provided to the entity that requests from us.

615
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 9: We would not inform the person that we're doing a

616
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 9: lifestyle order. We would leave that to the entity that

617
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 9: requests the lifestyle orders from us and to be the

618
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 9: incumbent on them to inform such a person that this

619
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 9: is being done, because that they would have to have

620
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 9: at least a person's cooperation and if not consent for that.

621
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 2: We have seen situations in South Africa where there's a

622
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 2: judicial process and there is a sitting judge who basically

623
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,879
Speaker 2: monitors the eavesdropping by police, right, And we've had situations

624
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 2: where people have gone to the judge and said we

625
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 2: need this number, we need to be able to hear

626
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 2: this person's conversations and they have given a particular person's ID,

627
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 2: but it actually turned out that the phone number they

628
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 2: gave them was that of an investigative journalist. And the

629
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,720
Speaker 2: reason that I say this is that there are lots

630
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 2: of ways that people can abuse the authority that such

631
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 2: an intrusive power could give them. What safeguards are there

632
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 2: to make sure something like that doesn't happen. And yes,

633
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 2: you wouldn't with financial documents necessarily be able to give

634
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 2: wrong ID numbers because then it wouldn't work, But you

635
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 2: would be able to. I mean, I can just imagine

636
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 2: someone in a council and we've all seen what's been

637
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: happening in the SAPs recently, someone in any government agency

638
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 2: deciding they want more information about someone and finding a

639
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 2: way to get you to do their dirty work for them.

640
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 9: Well, firstly, we would have to be convinced that the

641
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 9: entity that's requesting the orders from us as a legitimate,

642
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:01,240
Speaker 9: legitimate interest in doing a lifestyle that interestinct of that person,

643
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 9: So they would have to be a prior relationship that

644
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,359
Speaker 9: they would have to demonstrate before we will go to

645
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 9: the to the extent of carrying out a lifestyle order

646
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 9: if it's not in the context of us working on

647
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 9: something that is suspicious and we're we're following flow of funds,

648
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 9: so we would have to apply our judgment is there

649
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 9: if I see on a case by case basis and

650
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 9: ensure that in every case that we are requested to

651
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 9: do so that the entity that is making that request

652
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 9: of us legitimately has an interesting in carrying outter life

653
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 9: stole order. We would also want to have confirmation that

654
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 9: the person is aware that the lifestyle order is being

655
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 9: done and that the information that we are working with

656
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 9: was obtained from that person, and that those are privacy

657
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 9: issues that we would have to respect and that could

658
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 9: apply in terms of the protection of person information actual instance.

659
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 2: Peter Smith, thank you. Acting Director of the Financial Intelligence Center,

660
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 2: Stephen Powell had a forensic still on the course head

661
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 2: of forensic at ns. So much money nowadays is flowing

662
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 2: around through other means, is there a risk that this

663
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: kind of power will result in people leaving the formal

664
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 2: banking system and moving their money around crypto or moving

665
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 2: their money around through tether or as something else. Even

666
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,320
Speaker 2: if it's not that I'm a bit concerned about the

667
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,439
Speaker 2: law of unintended consequences.

668
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 8: Absolutely right, Stephen, and you're right to be concerned. And

669
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 8: I think a lot of the criminals that we investigate

670
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 8: as forensic units already make an extensive use of crypto

671
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 8: and other platforms to try and evade scrutiny. But one

672
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 8: of the areas where the fight, if we're also very

673
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 8: concerned and concerned not only with South Africa but globally,

674
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 8: was the way that crypto was being abused to facilitate

675
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 8: money laundry and for drug cotails to move money across

676
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 8: borders with absolute ease and limited control. So what we

677
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 8: have seen over the last number of years has been

678
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 8: extensive regulation of crypto itself and you'll see that some

679
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 8: of the mainstream banks, that the traditional banks, are starting

680
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 8: to embrace crypto as a mechanism for payment. And I

681
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 8: think we've seen massive regulation to try and control those abuses,

682
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 8: So you're right, there is a risk that the criminals

683
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 8: will move to those types of platforms. But at the

684
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 8: same time, regulators across the board are clamping down on

685
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,800
Speaker 8: the abuse of crypto So I think it is something

686
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 8: that the authorities will are aware of and they will

687
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 8: be taking steps to try and monitor and make sure

688
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 8: that they address the money lau drend risk. Remember that

689
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 8: what has been proposed in terms of the General Laws

690
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 8: Amendment Act was critically needed because we see that it

691
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 8: changes things like the Nonprofit Organizations Act and NPOs have

692
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,479
Speaker 8: been abused. We can see that there is evidence which

693
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 8: reflects that terrorist organizations cartels, we're using nonprofit organizations with

694
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 8: limited supervision, limited disclosure of beneficial ownership. So a lot

695
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 8: of these amendments that have been introduced by the changes

696
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 8: in that are proposed in the bill are designed to

697
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 8: address these very weaknesses that fight IF had identified, and

698
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 8: we are about to be reassessed by fight IF later

699
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 8: this year they'll conduct another peer review. So we've got

700
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 8: to make sure that we don't rest on our laurels

701
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 8: and we ensure that we are implementing everything that we

702
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 8: promised the fight if we would be doing and the

703
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 8: proactive identification of fraud, corruption, money laundering was one of

704
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 8: those promises, and I think it's quite useful that we

705
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 8: passed the bull and we are going to be able

706
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 8: to demonstrate to fight if implementation of some of these initiatives.

707
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 2: Stephen, thank you. Stephen paralhead of Forensic at NS. Peter

708
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 2: Smith is the acting director of the Financial Intelligence Center.

709
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,919
Speaker 2: Your View seven two one, seven oh two.

710
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen credits on seven

711
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 1: oh two, next Walk litt All.

712
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 2: The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you

713
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 2: by ABS of Corporate and Investment Banking, Balancing economic growth

714
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 2: with ecosystems. That's how they're invested in your story. Eight

715
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 2: minutes after seven, Well, in a moment, I was struck

716
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: by the way when I was going through my email

717
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 2: this morning and I saw an email from Currency News.

718
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 2: They're one of the many news services I've subscribed to.

719
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 2: You ready must subscribe to as many as you can,

720
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 2: And there was confirmation of the deal they've struck with

721
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 2: Apex Publishing, and essentially this means that now several groups

722
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 2: will be working together, so Currency News, Financial mail and

723
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 2: Mining MX altogether. Speak to Rob Rose. He is the

724
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 2: co founder of Currency News. I'm not sure if he

725
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 2: keeps that title or not. We'll have to ask him

726
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 2: in just a moment. He's been involved in plenty of

727
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,359
Speaker 2: other things through the years of We will also hear

728
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 2: from Ian man our book reviewer, looking at the book

729
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 2: Money by David McWilliams. The thesis of a design understand

730
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 2: it is that humans are humans because of currency. And

731
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 2: if you think about it, you come across a stranger,

732
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 2: stranger wants to give you something, you want to give

733
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 2: them something. Without the invention of money, there's really no

734
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 2: way to do it. Bartering, yes, but it's so limited.

735
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 2: And currency, whether it's seashells or whatever, it is, the

736
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 2: ability to exchange something for something to something else. All

737
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 2: of those things really did create kind of humanity as

738
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 2: we know it. And then from seven point thirty I

739
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 2: don't know if you do this, but if you feel

740
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 2: loyal to particular brands and not to others and the

741
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 2: science of that. Amanda Cromhertz mand it a sort of

742
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 2: life mission done very very well in it, try and

743
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 2: sort of work out how and why that is. Find

744
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 2: it really very interesting good year from you double one

745
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 2: A three oh seven oh two two one four four,

746
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,800
Speaker 2: six oh five six seven, and of course voice notes

747
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 2: this evening on seven two seven oh two one seven

748
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 2: oh two. Very interested in your view and that conversation

749
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 2: with the Financial Intelligence Center. But when do you think

750
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 2: they should be able to look at your money? And

751
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 2: would it just be I mean, I am deeply I

752
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 2: always get worried about these things because we've seen how

753
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 2: often they can be abused, these powers, and look what

754
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 2: was happening in the police and the SAPs and all

755
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 2: sorts of things. And I believe the Financial Intelligence Center.

756
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,240
Speaker 2: I have no reason to question any of the people

757
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 2: there or the work they've done. I just think we

758
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 2: kind of need a future proof. That's really what worries me.

759
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 2: We need to make it, actually, we need we need

760
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 2: to make sure that we can understand who can access

761
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 2: our money and who can't in our financial information. Eleven

762
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 2: after seven, The Money Show.

763
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 3: With Stephen krudis live on ninety two point seven and

764
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 3: one o six FM, streaming on the Prime Media Plus NAP.

765
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 1: And DSTVA channel eight five six.

766
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 2: Well confirmation Now several of the bigger brands and financial

767
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 2: journalism in South Africa under one roof Apex Publisher. Apex

768
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:13,760
Speaker 2: Publishing Enterprises has purchased Financial Mail, Currency News, and Mining MX.

769
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:15,959
Speaker 2: In other words, they're all going to be owned by

770
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 2: one company. Rob Rose is the co founder of Currency News.

771
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 2: Rob good evening. You are part of the group that

772
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 2: formed Currency News my sense of news. You quite like

773
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 2: the independence. Why were you happy to be bought in

774
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:30,240
Speaker 2: this way to join this group?

775
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 8: Yive?

776
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:33,879
Speaker 10: Nick Stephen, Well, I mean, I think it's a good

777
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 10: deal in that. What it does is it gives you

778
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:39,439
Speaker 10: the power of living up existing brands like Financial Mail,

779
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 10: which is, you know, sixty five, sixty six years old.

780
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 10: I mean it's been around since nineteen fifty nine, has

781
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 10: a good, formidable reputation, and we know the people there,

782
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 10: we work there, and essentially it allows you to punch

783
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 10: above your weight. I think, I mean, if the power

784
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 10: of a whole lot of media brands coming together, you

785
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 10: can do bigger things.

786
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 2: I hope you are the editor there for a long time.

787
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 2: They've had a new there for a while. You're going

788
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 2: to be all right in the same newsroom together.

789
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 10: We got on really well. I mean Mark Custinson has

790
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 10: been aired to Financial Mail. He's fantastic. Yeah, we work.

791
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 10: We've spoken a lot, you know, the last couple of

792
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 10: years frequently, so it's a you know, it's a cultural fit.

793
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 10: I mean, we work well together. And I think that's

794
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 10: fundamentally the vision that Apex had was to build you know,

795
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 10: excellence in journalism, excellence in business journalism. And I think

796
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 10: that that's a that's a difficult world. Costs have been

797
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 10: cut dramatically and advertising spend is reduced. So if you

798
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 10: have somebody who believes in funding this vision, putting it

799
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 10: together and take it to the next level, and I

800
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 10: think that's a that's a compelling strategic fit. I think

801
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 10: between these titles, how.

802
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 2: Is it going to work? Is there going to be

803
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 2: one sort of newsroom, physical or virtual? Are you going

804
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 2: to keep your different identities? I mean you've put time

805
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 2: and money into building currency news at David mckaye's put

806
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 2: time and money and pretty much a whole career into

807
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 2: mining MX. He's done incredibly well with Financial Mail. Is

808
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 2: the brand that is Financial Mail obviously the brand stay.

809
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 2: But how are they gonna ho Are they gonna run

810
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 2: under the hood?

811
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean I think that's something that's going to

812
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 10: be worked out, especially with regard to digital strategy. You

813
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 10: have to decide how you're going to do it for

814
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 10: three of them. But in a sense they are all

815
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 10: financial media outlets, but they have distinct identities. Currency is

816
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 10: primarily a digital daily news offering it you know, writes

817
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 10: daily news every single day. We have podcasts and that

818
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 10: sort of thing. Financial Mail is a weekly magazine primarily

819
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 10: that has done I wrote today, that's done remarkably well

820
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 10: over a decade. It actually increased its its circulation, which

821
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 10: is unheard of in the print landscape. And mining ems

822
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 10: covers mining news better than I think anyone does. So

823
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 10: you found sort of three pockets of excellence that are

824
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 10: that are varied enough I think to make it so

825
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 10: that you're not replicating each other's work, but they have

826
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 10: enough enough overlap to allow you to work well with

827
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 10: each other. You know, we can use we Mark write

828
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 10: something on you know, a company he likes, we can

829
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 10: use it. If it's a daily story. When we write

830
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 10: something he likes, they can use it In Financial Mail.

831
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,399
Speaker 10: I mean, there's a lot of ways to do things

832
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 10: better and more optimally. I think to maximize the output,

833
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 10: and I also think what you need to do with

834
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:09,240
Speaker 10: these brands in a world of massive social media presence

835
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,800
Speaker 10: is you need to maximize the impact. So it allows

836
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 10: us to kind of put the story out there and

837
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 10: I think make a bigger impact with what we're doing.

838
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 2: Are you then, as the head of Currency News and

839
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 2: you know's David McKay at mining MX and all the rest,

840
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 2: are they going to are you going to be paid

841
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 2: employees or is it going to be a different relationship

842
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 2: in some way?

843
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 10: Well, I think the brands at this point are going

844
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 10: to stay distinct. Are they going to you know that

845
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 10: Apex's vision is that all the brands stay their own way,

846
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 10: and I think the individuals stay as well. And you

847
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 10: kind of, you know, you keep doing what you currently do,

848
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 10: you will be paid employees. I mean, it's back to

849
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 10: doing what we did before we started currency. So it's

850
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,280
Speaker 10: a I suppose it's a world that we all started

851
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:53,800
Speaker 10: in and we all kind of know how it works.

852
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 10: But yeah, I mean, I think, you know, Stephen, you know,

853
00:46:57,920 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 10: media is a difficult space and I think somebody who

854
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 10: who is willing to put the kind of the name

855
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 10: and the wallet behind something that can take it to

856
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 10: the next level is very rare in the world. Of media,

857
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 10: and I think it's an optinuy. We just couldn't turn

858
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 10: it on.

859
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 2: I mean I kind of need to ask, you know,

860
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 2: do you believe it'll be possible for APEX to make

861
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 2: money out of this? And you automatically have to say yes, Rob,

862
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 2: because this is a position you found yourself in. But

863
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 2: I sometimes wonder about the position of financial journalism in particular.

864
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the great example, of course, is

865
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,720
Speaker 2: the Financial Times. It seems to be doing incredibly well.

866
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 2: The same it is true of the economists in the

867
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 2: New York Times, but that's because they've kind of hoovered

868
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 2: up everything. If you like, you could argue, I would say,

869
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 2: and I'll get into trouble for saying this in some

870
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 2: quarters that News twenty four is playing a similar role here.

871
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 2: It's the kind of big winner. I should declare at

872
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 2: this moment that I work for Daily a meverick and

873
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 2: say they're excellent. But News twenty four has done just

874
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 2: the most amazing job. So the question becomes, then, is

875
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 2: it possible for other players to do well as well?

876
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 10: I mean, I totally believe it is. I mean it's

877
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,319
Speaker 10: not just example the Financial Times. It proves you can

878
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 10: make a success of business media. But you know, you

879
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 10: look in a micro sense, you look at David McKay's

880
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 10: organization mining e X. Now, David has been basically profitable

881
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 10: from you know, it's in the first year currency news.

882
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 10: We had our first cash positive month last September. So

883
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 10: I absolutely believe it's possible to do it. APEX believes

884
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,240
Speaker 10: that the media hasn't been run optimally with a great

885
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 10: commercial sense about it, and there's ways to do it

886
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 10: much better. And I think that there's huge truth in that.

887
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 10: I think that I've seen and you've seen media houses

888
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 10: do things very badly from a commercial sense over the

889
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:45,400
Speaker 10: past twenty years, and you've often thought, well, they didn't

890
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 10: do that, they didn't focus on this, they could have

891
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 10: sold this better. I think there's massive scode to do

892
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 10: things better. And I do think absolutely the fact that

893
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 10: David has been able to make his operational success and

894
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,439
Speaker 10: others have done it shows you can do it now.

895
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,359
Speaker 10: You know, you can make a thousand mistakes long way,

896
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 10: but there are really positive signs. The fact that News

897
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,839
Speaker 10: twenty four has you know, more than one hundred and

898
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 10: ten thousand subscribers paying subscribers shows that people want to

899
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:11,959
Speaker 10: pay for news. They're willing to do it. The fact

900
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 10: that that Dali Marrick has such a such an immense

901
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 10: online audience shows people are interested in it. So these

902
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 10: are gems that you can collect from all over the

903
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 10: place and say, yes, we can do something. But I

904
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 10: do think you need to deliver real value to society.

905
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 10: You can't just put out a news product and you know,

906
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 10: I hope people will just arrive and just produce press releases.

907
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 10: I think you have to demonstrate the value adding so

908
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 10: that people do, you know, do come and read your

909
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 10: product and build respect and trust that.

910
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 2: Way you and I don't know how you'll answer this,

911
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 2: but you went from paid employee as editor of Financial

912
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 2: Mail too with a group of other very significant figures

913
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 2: starting currency news, that transition to actually having to run something.

914
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 2: I mean, journalists famously are hard to manage, but I

915
00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 2: think often one of the problems with a media oranizations

916
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 2: that journalists are also not necessarily good managers. And I've

917
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:08,800
Speaker 2: sometimes felt that I'll include myself in this, we need

918
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:11,800
Speaker 2: a business person to run us. Is there something in that?

919
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:12,320
Speaker 5: Yes?

920
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 10: I think absolutely that's true. I mean I think that

921
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 10: you know, we do this because we didn't really have

922
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 10: another option. So we kind of made it work at

923
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 10: Currency News, but I think that I do think somebody

924
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:23,840
Speaker 10: has a strong commercial sense of it in a handle

925
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 10: on where it's going and what needs to be done

926
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 10: in terms of the bank account every month is a

927
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 10: vital necessity at at any media organization, and Daily Maverick,

928
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 10: for example. You know Stilly has done that at Daily

929
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 10: Merrick and that's been fundamental to the fact that it's

930
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 10: now How old is Deni Merrick eighteen years old, twenty years.

931
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 2: Old, two thousand and nine, he says, off the top

932
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 2: of it said very quickly.

933
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 10: But that's I mean, you need somebody like that. And

934
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 10: I think that you know, we did it because we

935
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 10: have to, but I think you absolutely need to and

936
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 10: I think it can, actually it can. It can make

937
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,319
Speaker 10: the companies way more successful. As journalists though you do

938
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 10: have an insight into what's actually happening on the ground

939
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:00,879
Speaker 10: in the newsrooms, you can say this decision was made

940
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 10: that wasn't a commercially great one. We can do this better.

941
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 10: So you have insights sort of valuable. But I think

942
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 10: you absolutely need to tell a sense of managing a business,

943
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 10: and that isn't famously what journalists are are great at

944
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 10: I mean they can always, you know, say in retrospect

945
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 10: this is badly done, But in terms of running it's

946
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 10: a different story.

947
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 2: Rob Rose, good to hear from you, good to talk

948
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 2: to you, Thank you very much. Indeed, a co founder

949
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 2: of Currency News. As a fellow journalist, I have to

950
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 2: issue all the very best of luck. And obviously, as

951
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 2: you know, the Money Show is financial journalism too, so

952
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 2: we all wanted to succeed. One of the reasons I

953
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 2: thought it was important to hear from Rob or one

954
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 2: of the people involved in what's happening there. I'm fascinated

955
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 2: by the kind of journalism journey in it and to

956
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 2: how you turn information into money, particularly when information is

957
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 2: sort of all over the place. And of course the

958
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 2: answer is obvious. It's the insight, it's the ability to

959
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,320
Speaker 2: put it together. And it's not journalism. It isn't about facts.

960
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 2: It's not stenography. I mean, I get irritated when people

961
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 2: say you must just report the facts. That's being a snograph.

962
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 2: And my argument to that was always to say, in

963
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 2: situations where people have pushed me on it is to say,

964
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 2: it's not my job to say this person says, it's

965
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 2: raining and this person says, it's not as to go

966
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 2: outside and look. And I think when you go and

967
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 2: do the looking yourself, that's really where you start to

968
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:22,480
Speaker 2: make some money. And financial journalism is absolutely key and

969
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:26,320
Speaker 2: vital to that, absolutely and to the success of many companies.

970
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 2: By the way, I mean, how on earth are you

971
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 2: going to know which share price to buy, which chare

972
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 2: to buy based just on the stock exchange news service? Okay,

973
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 2: good luck? Twenty minutes after seven.

974
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 1: Show business books.

975
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 2: It's been a little while since we've seen you. Ian Man,

976
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 2: good evening. You're gonna have to move the microphone to

977
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:44,839
Speaker 2: your to your mouth. Ian Man, of course, is the

978
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 2: managing director of Gateways Business Consultants. How you doing, good, good, good,

979
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 2: good to have you back. The book this week is

980
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 2: Money by David McWilliams. And let me just confess the

981
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 2: very beginning. I started it, but I haven't finished it.

982
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 2: You will not be able to put down with going

983
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 2: of it. It's probably the most extraordinary book I've read.

984
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 2: I cannot remember since when it's written by an economists.

985
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 2: That's not his fault. Most economists are really very dry.

986
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 8: He is.

987
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 11: He can't write a paragraph without being entertaining. What he's

988
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 11: done is he's taken the history of money from from

989
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:23,800
Speaker 11: the from the very beginning when hunter gatherers, we're using

990
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 11: grains as as a medium of establishing value which they

991
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:31,240
Speaker 11: could share with other people because it had a value.

992
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 11: We know that two handfuls of this can be equal

993
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 11: to one of that. And then we saw He leads

994
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:39,760
Speaker 11: that right through up to where we are now with cryptocurrencies.

995
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 11: And his book is built on simply giving you insights

996
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 11: and the most extraordinary things that happened long the way,

997
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 11: and I like to share some of them with you.

998
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 11: So he goes back to the very very oldest. If

999
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 11: you take the some Marians in two thousand BC, they were,

1000
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 11: they had a civilization and where they were writing and

1001
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 11: writing in that accounting that the legal system that sophisticated

1002
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 11: financial architecture. And they were, but the whole thing was

1003
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:10,399
Speaker 11: anchored by interest rates. There was a clear interst rate.

1004
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 11: Everybody in you were trading was because that was interest rate.

1005
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:17,879
Speaker 11: But was the Lydians that developed a coin. Now before them,

1006
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:21,879
Speaker 11: the Babylonians always loved gold jewelry. But to say that

1007
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 11: this is worth an ounce of gold means that you've

1008
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,720
Speaker 11: got to be sure that the ounce that your weights

1009
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 11: are correct. That's fine. The problem with this is you

1010
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 11: can also put a stone in the middle, or something

1011
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 11: was dirty in the middle. But once you start putting

1012
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 11: in printing, printing a coin that's regulated by some major

1013
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 11: authority like a country, you know that that's tradable. All

1014
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,840
Speaker 11: of a sudden, trade completely completely changed. And that's what

1015
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 11: happened with the Lidians. And there they stamped, they stamped,

1016
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 11: validated piece of gold was really worth what they said

1017
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 11: it was.

1018
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:53,279
Speaker 9: The Greeks go.

1019
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 11: Then he gets into it takes everything in between that.

1020
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 11: Then you get to the Greeks, and the Greeks had

1021
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 11: an enormous empire. The only problem was that they they

1022
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 11: couldn't feed themselves, so they really needed to trade. And

1023
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 11: what they started doing was they they had to import

1024
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:12,280
Speaker 11: three courts and it's amazing, had to import three courts

1025
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:14,839
Speaker 11: of their food. So they had to have some way

1026
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:18,760
Speaker 11: of trading. And they developed a coin and which the Drama,

1027
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:21,759
Speaker 11: which lasted for seven hundred years as the basic as

1028
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,839
Speaker 11: a basic form of trade. And that made that made

1029
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:28,439
Speaker 11: them completely different to anybody else. But that that that

1030
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 11: coin actually had other effects. And what he does he

1031
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:35,920
Speaker 11: shows the effects on humanity and human beings, effect on

1032
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 11: on on money, and how the world evolves from that.

1033
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 11: The the in in in in Athens, if you had

1034
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:47,840
Speaker 11: two drama and you were a lowly level person, you

1035
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 11: could buy exactly the same amount of goods as a

1036
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 11: princess with two drama. That was very democratic and very

1037
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:57,759
Speaker 11: very unusual. Then it wasn't like that. Then you move

1038
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 11: into places like Florence, and everything in material get to

1039
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 11: Florence's most incredible city. Even though it's incredible, there was

1040
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 11: an incredible trading city, was probably the greatest trading hub

1041
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 11: of its time, and they were structured the way the

1042
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:15,479
Speaker 11: structure was unusual. Firstly, they set up guilds, which meant

1043
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 11: groups of people got together and by getting together they

1044
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 11: could get better prices, they could sell better and their

1045
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 11: trade routes literally around the world, and these guilds facilitated

1046
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:30,359
Speaker 11: this trade. But more interestingly, the wealthy people there were

1047
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:34,920
Speaker 11: very civic minded, and the wealthy people were all built parks,

1048
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 11: but not for themselves, huge houses with big parks. They

1049
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 11: bought parks for the people. And so he had a

1050
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:44,239
Speaker 11: city where which attracted intellectuals, which attracted open thought, and

1051
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 11: which actually became an extraordinary, extraordinary city until the Black

1052
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:51,280
Speaker 11: Plague there was an extraordinary, amazing, amazing achievement.

1053
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 2: So the idea really is that money currency brings people

1054
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,440
Speaker 2: together and brings people together who would not otherwise be together.

1055
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 11: Absolutely it has It has all sorts of effects. One

1056
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 11: that brings people to get also allows them to trade

1057
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 11: with each other in ways that they couldn't have done otherwise.

1058
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 11: And he weaves all sorts of lovely stories together. One

1059
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:14,840
Speaker 11: of the stories I enjoyed most was his story about Gutenburg.

1060
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 11: We always think of him as printing the Bible, but

1061
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 11: Gutenburg was down and out. He was a goldsmith, saying

1062
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:23,919
Speaker 11: you had craft things, and he realized that I could

1063
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 11: make a printing press. And he didn't make a printing

1064
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 11: press for books.

1065
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 2: He went.

1066
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 11: The best person to be employed by at the time

1067
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 11: was the church because the church had the real money.

1068
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 11: I think they still have enormous amount, and they they

1069
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 11: were the one to really work for, and they were

1070
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 11: had a really nice scheme. You could get get out

1071
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,120
Speaker 11: of hell free. All that you could get out of

1072
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 11: hell if you if you bought your way out indulgences.

1073
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 11: But they were printing, writing out indulgences by hand that

1074
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:54,520
Speaker 11: took too much time.

1075
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:56,760
Speaker 2: So he went in and help you guys out.

1076
00:57:57,040 --> 00:57:59,919
Speaker 11: I can print these things in mass and it made

1077
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 11: was made a huge amount of money for the church.

1078
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 11: Bolso made a huge amount of money for him. And

1079
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:08,520
Speaker 11: you have all these incredible stories the thew how money

1080
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 11: led to something else, and you can see the effect

1081
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 11: of the Protestant Revolution was the result of him having

1082
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 11: going to business, building in printing press and going on.

1083
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 11: But the idea of money was used for all sorts

1084
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 11: of things. When when the states after the War of Independence,

1085
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 11: you had a whole bunch of states who were separate,

1086
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 11: the South and the North, and they couldn't come together.

1087
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:32,440
Speaker 11: They used money to get people together in a very

1088
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 11: very interesting way. They had one the first they said

1089
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 11: the central government will take care of all the war

1090
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 11: debts for the site. The problem was that they said,

1091
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 11: we've just left the Brits. We don't want to we

1092
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 11: don't want to be governed by anybody else. They said,

1093
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:51,000
Speaker 11: we'll give you, we'll take care of all your debts,

1094
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 11: but we're going to have only one currency called the dollar.

1095
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 11: And all of a sudden, every time you took your

1096
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 11: money out of your pocket. You remember there was the

1097
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:02,400
Speaker 11: United States America and they had a dollar. It was

1098
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:05,240
Speaker 11: things like that. The money had impact in the ways

1099
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 11: that you couldn't have expected it. But we've also had

1100
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 11: We've also had we meant to fear the currencies where

1101
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 11: money was based on who said it was and in

1102
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 11: the American dollars is in God we trust, but it's

1103
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 11: really in the Fed that we trust. And the money

1104
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:24,320
Speaker 11: is a very interesting way of just developing and growing

1105
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:26,120
Speaker 11: at extraordinary rates.

1106
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 2: So I said I hadn't finished the book. You said

1107
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:35,120
Speaker 2: that that was strange because it's written so well, and certainly,

1108
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 2: I mean all of the reviews make that point about

1109
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 2: this book too. That's something you would recommend very strongly.

1110
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 11: I would definitely recommend it very strongly. I think that

1111
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 11: it leads you not only into what money has done

1112
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 11: and what money can do, but it allows you to

1113
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 11: understand what money is, how it moved from from dollar

1114
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 11: asset based like gold, to where we can have money

1115
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:02,120
Speaker 11: that was delinked from gold and it was just based

1116
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 11: on the economy. And then we move further and he

1117
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:09,160
Speaker 11: ends the book by he was in the Bank of Ireland.

1118
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 11: He understands national banks and he asks whether banks control

1119
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 11: the money or money controls the central bank. I'll just

1120
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 11: give you a quick example. If you want to buy

1121
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 11: a house, this asset called a house. I come and

1122
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 11: I go to the bank and I borrow money. They

1123
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 11: give me money, So now I have money, but the

1124
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 11: bank has an asset called the house. All of a sudden,

1125
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 11: the value we've just put the value of our house,

1126
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 11: just because they're nothing structured, into the economy, and it

1127
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 11: grows like that. We get some wonderful insights into business

1128
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:45,560
Speaker 11: and the economy and into money.

1129
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:48,120
Speaker 2: I found the fascinating yan Man. Thank you so much.

1130
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 2: Our regular book reviewer MD at Gateways Business Consultants. The

1131
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 2: book is Money by David McWilliams. It's twenty nine after seven.

1132
01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:00,320
Speaker 1: Her Money Show, How I Make My Money.

1133
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 2: Twenty two minutes now to eight the time. Well, have

1134
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 2: you ever wondered why it is that you prefer one

1135
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:10,280
Speaker 2: particular retail chain over another? I mean, I don't know

1136
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:12,640
Speaker 2: if you've done the research and looked at everything they sell,

1137
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:14,960
Speaker 2: or if you just feel better in one, or you

1138
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 2: don't like the color, or you just don't feel as

1139
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 2: comfortable going into another one. The secret of this is

1140
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:24,720
Speaker 2: actually loyalty and what makes you feel this way or

1141
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:28,240
Speaker 2: that way is very much a science nowadays. I think

1142
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:30,560
Speaker 2: there might be some art in it as well. Someone

1143
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 2: who's made their living, their career out of this in

1144
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:37,560
Speaker 2: this kind of science is Amanda Cromhoche. She's the founder

1145
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 2: and CEO of the organization called Truth Amanda. Good evening,

1146
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:43,600
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for green to spend half an hour

1147
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:44,640
Speaker 2: with us tonight.

1148
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:48,120
Speaker 12: Hie Stephen, nice to be with you.

1149
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 2: You talk about loyalty, and I mean, in my head,

1150
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 2: I'm thinking a frequent shopper program, God discount on this

1151
01:01:55,920 --> 01:02:00,360
Speaker 2: or whatever. You will have a very different understanding to

1152
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,880
Speaker 2: me about So how would you define loyalty in the

1153
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 2: kind of commercial sense to get people to come and

1154
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 2: spend money in your store.

1155
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 13: Well, I think you're right in the sense of as

1156
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:15,400
Speaker 13: a consumer, that's exactly what you think of, Like what

1157
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:16,440
Speaker 13: is this going to do for me?

1158
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 12: Shall I swipe my card? Is it worth it?

1159
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 13: And at the end of the day, all the brands

1160
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:23,400
Speaker 13: that we work with in the loyalty industry have to

1161
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:26,680
Speaker 13: make sure that that's the first and foremost criteria to

1162
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:29,080
Speaker 13: make sure that customers are happy and that it's worthwhile

1163
01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:31,520
Speaker 13: for them, because if it makes sense for their business

1164
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:34,240
Speaker 13: but doesn't make sense for the customer, then ultimately it's

1165
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:37,480
Speaker 13: not going to survive. So we spend a lot of

1166
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:40,920
Speaker 13: our time helping the brands in South Africa or around

1167
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:45,200
Speaker 13: the world who we assist in loyalty programs and so forth,

1168
01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:49,480
Speaker 13: getting the balance right between what is fabulous for the consumer,

1169
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:52,439
Speaker 13: what's going to make a difference for the consumer, and

1170
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:56,920
Speaker 13: also then equally, what is commercially viable for the brands

1171
01:02:56,920 --> 01:02:59,400
Speaker 13: who are operating these loyalty programs, Because if one is

1172
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 13: great for the consumer but actually is sinking the brand,

1173
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 13: it's not going to last. But if it's great for

1174
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:07,640
Speaker 13: the brand and not good for the consumer, it's equally

1175
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 13: not going to last. So it's a balance, And I

1176
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:11,680
Speaker 13: think that's where you said the science and the soul.

1177
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 13: It's very scientific from an economic point of view, from

1178
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:18,960
Speaker 13: a mathematical returnal investment point of view, but it's also

1179
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 13: there is a there is a soul to it in

1180
01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:24,920
Speaker 13: terms of is this going to work, is the consumer

1181
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:27,600
Speaker 13: going to like this, is it going to really make

1182
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:31,360
Speaker 13: a difference versus the competitors, Because virtually every brand out

1183
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:34,520
Speaker 13: there now has a loyalty program of sorts, so you

1184
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:37,120
Speaker 13: have to differentiate somehow, and that's a little bit of

1185
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:41,240
Speaker 13: the soul coming through. So it's very scientific, though, don't

1186
01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:43,440
Speaker 13: you know not to not to let that loose.

1187
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:45,200
Speaker 2: I'm going to come back to that because I find

1188
01:03:45,240 --> 01:03:46,880
Speaker 2: the interesting, but I do want to just focus on

1189
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 2: the soul for a second. I mean, what is the soul?

1190
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 2: I mean you look at a retail chain and you

1191
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:54,320
Speaker 2: think it doesn't have soul, and yet people will walk

1192
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 2: into it or speak to the workers, interact with people,

1193
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:01,920
Speaker 2: kind of know where the counter is, and I think

1194
01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:05,680
Speaker 2: they come out of that shopping experience. They do come

1195
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:08,400
Speaker 2: out of it moved in some way. I mean, shopping

1196
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:11,200
Speaker 2: has become so much less frustrating than it was twenty

1197
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 2: years ago.

1198
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:16,520
Speaker 13: Yeah, So, I mean, I've had the luxury of working

1199
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:19,440
Speaker 13: as a retailer within the retail industry, and I always

1200
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:22,800
Speaker 13: that I've heard the best retailers in the world refer

1201
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:25,680
Speaker 13: to the retail industry as science and soul, and I

1202
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 13: think that's exactly right. There's a very scientific approach to

1203
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 13: merchandising and pricing and so forth, but there's a very

1204
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:37,120
Speaker 13: the soul of a retailer. So I had the privilege

1205
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:40,720
Speaker 13: of working for Wallworst South Africa for three years and

1206
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 13: we used to you know, the Simon Susman was the

1207
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:45,560
Speaker 13: CEO at the time, and he used to talk about

1208
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:48,360
Speaker 13: the soul of retailing, like the smell of the strawberries

1209
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:52,480
Speaker 13: or the feel of the fabric in woman's fashion and

1210
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:55,480
Speaker 13: so on. And it's true, right, like, if you smell

1211
01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:58,400
Speaker 13: a beautiful strawberry in the grocery store, you're more likely

1212
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:00,320
Speaker 13: to say I want that rather than just if it's

1213
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 13: based on price and more scientific methods. So and I've

1214
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:06,640
Speaker 13: just I mean, a lot of the work that we

1215
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:09,360
Speaker 13: do at Truth is working with brands around the world,

1216
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:13,120
Speaker 13: and I've just had the privilege of working not working

1217
01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:18,080
Speaker 13: so much so, but visiting a retailer in Australia who

1218
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:22,000
Speaker 13: really excelled at the soul of getting getting close to

1219
01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:25,600
Speaker 13: their customers and making them getting their customs to love, love,

1220
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 13: love their brand.

1221
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:28,760
Speaker 12: And that's that's something.

1222
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 13: That's you know, just data alone or scientific analysis can't create.

1223
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 12: There's a soult.

1224
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:38,040
Speaker 13: There's a soul behind that approach, without without doubt.

1225
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:42,080
Speaker 2: It's so interesting to sort of think about how it

1226
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:46,240
Speaker 2: works because I sometimes wonder can a brand with a soul.

1227
01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:49,480
Speaker 2: Make a mistake that affects the soul but not the science.

1228
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 2: And I'll give you an example. There's a particular British

1229
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:55,960
Speaker 2: shift that I cannot stand. I haven't been able to

1230
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:58,479
Speaker 2: stand and I couldn't stand Jamie Onovano when I lived

1231
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:01,560
Speaker 2: in the UK thirty year ago. I can't stand him

1232
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 2: now now I might be the only one, but I think, frankly,

1233
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 2: that's a huge mistake. And sending me a WhatsApp thing

1234
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:10,040
Speaker 2: with him actually saying my name before hitting the drums.

1235
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:12,120
Speaker 2: I tell you what I wanted to do with the

1236
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:16,360
Speaker 2: drama sticks, Amanda. But can you get the soul wrong?

1237
01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:19,160
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1238
01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:21,840
Speaker 13: No, you're making me laugh because I've used that's a

1239
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:25,080
Speaker 13: good example of where you're picking up on the soul,

1240
01:06:25,200 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 13: but I pick up on the science, because the science

1241
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 13: of that is very much that they pick up on

1242
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:32,720
Speaker 13: how loyal you are to the brand and that we're

1243
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:37,960
Speaker 13: talking about the famous Checkers sixty sixty and their Simple

1244
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 13: Truth brand, and they've used that campaign very cleverly from

1245
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:45,840
Speaker 13: a science point of view in terms of understanding what

1246
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:49,200
Speaker 13: I shop and talking to me about what I shop.

1247
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:51,400
Speaker 13: And I am a simple truth, you know, I do

1248
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:53,960
Speaker 13: buy the Simple truth brand. So they're getting it right

1249
01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:57,800
Speaker 13: from a science point of view without question. Here in

1250
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:00,760
Speaker 13: your case, maybe they're just a lucky that you don't

1251
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:04,040
Speaker 13: like the Oliver. But you're right, you know that's a

1252
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:06,480
Speaker 13: brand preference, but that is a soul and if it

1253
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:09,480
Speaker 13: completely missed the mark for you, but for me, that's

1254
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 13: a great example of a scientific approach. But the execution

1255
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:17,400
Speaker 13: maybe is missed the mark for some consumers and how

1256
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:19,200
Speaker 13: they would predict that. I have no idea. I don't

1257
01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:21,040
Speaker 13: know why you don't like them, but that's your.

1258
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:23,960
Speaker 2: Personal There's a long list of reasons, but we don't

1259
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:27,000
Speaker 2: need to go into that now. I mean, I'm sure

1260
01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:31,120
Speaker 2: he's sure, he's perfectly nice to do all of this.

1261
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:33,000
Speaker 2: To make it work. To make the science work, you

1262
01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:36,120
Speaker 2: would need to have data, and I would imagine a

1263
01:07:36,160 --> 01:07:38,240
Speaker 2: ton of it, and you would need to know who

1264
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:40,480
Speaker 2: your shoppers are. You would need to know how they

1265
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:42,200
Speaker 2: came across you. They would need to know if they

1266
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:44,320
Speaker 2: grew up coming to your stores. I mean, if you

1267
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:46,920
Speaker 2: look at our big retailers, most of them will have

1268
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 2: customers who grew up going to them in some way.

1269
01:07:50,520 --> 01:07:53,920
Speaker 2: You need to know who you're aiming for. The data

1270
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:55,200
Speaker 2: must be key to the whole thing.

1271
01:07:57,600 --> 01:08:00,080
Speaker 13: It is, of course, but I'll correct you maybe on

1272
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:02,160
Speaker 13: one thing is you actually don't need heaps and heaps

1273
01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 13: of data. So obviously a big national retailer like a

1274
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:10,080
Speaker 13: Wallvers sort of Checkers or one of the big retail

1275
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:13,680
Speaker 13: banks and so forth, they have gogantuum amounts of data

1276
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:16,920
Speaker 13: and do amazing things with it with permission obviously from

1277
01:08:16,960 --> 01:08:20,479
Speaker 13: the customer. With and that's the best news is in

1278
01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:24,120
Speaker 13: the last five years or more. Globally but also here

1279
01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:27,280
Speaker 13: in South Africa, the legislation really does protect the consumer.

1280
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:32,000
Speaker 13: So it's if they're not then they're absolutely incomplete breach.

1281
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:35,960
Speaker 13: But it's not just the big boys that can can

1282
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:38,720
Speaker 13: use the data effectively. We've you know, we're starting to

1283
01:08:38,760 --> 01:08:42,080
Speaker 13: see and help brands that are tiny organizations that may

1284
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:45,679
Speaker 13: just be a corner florist for example. They can collect

1285
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:50,519
Speaker 13: data very simply from whether it's signing up for email receipts,

1286
01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:53,640
Speaker 13: whether it's signing up for a newsletter, and can effectively

1287
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:56,880
Speaker 13: as well hopefully change how customers feel about their brand

1288
01:08:57,240 --> 01:09:00,600
Speaker 13: because they're starting to create this relationship. But obviously with

1289
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:03,479
Speaker 13: the big global players or the big national players, they

1290
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:06,720
Speaker 13: are collecting rows and rows and rows and rows of

1291
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:10,200
Speaker 13: data against millions and millions of customers. And we've seen

1292
01:09:10,280 --> 01:09:16,559
Speaker 13: the South African loyalty players be recognized globally for the

1293
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:19,280
Speaker 13: work they're doing in loyalty and with the use of

1294
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:24,080
Speaker 13: their data. So brands such as F and B, E Bucks, TFG, Shoprite,

1295
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:28,840
Speaker 13: they've all been recognized globally for the work they're doing.

1296
01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:31,120
Speaker 13: And that doesn't just come because they're good brands and

1297
01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 13: they sell nice merchandise. To be recognized on the global

1298
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:39,720
Speaker 13: stage for their data analytics capability. They're doing so responsibly,

1299
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:43,000
Speaker 13: so the consumer is always protected, and so they're adding

1300
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:46,120
Speaker 13: value to the customer's life and obviously they'n a commercial

1301
01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:48,479
Speaker 13: return for themselves. And that's what I started off by saying.

1302
01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:51,320
Speaker 13: It's got to have almost like a seesaw effect, that

1303
01:09:51,360 --> 01:09:56,040
Speaker 13: it's got to be a balanced seesaw that the consumer

1304
01:09:56,120 --> 01:09:59,360
Speaker 13: benefits whilst the brand benefits. It can't be heavily weighted

1305
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:03,440
Speaker 13: against the other otherwise it has no sustainability.

1306
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:06,880
Speaker 2: When you're trying to start one of these systems. Let

1307
01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:10,240
Speaker 2: me go back a little bit to get the customer loyalty.

1308
01:10:10,320 --> 01:10:13,400
Speaker 2: Does it all boil down to price in the end.

1309
01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:16,120
Speaker 2: So I mean, if you look at the two big

1310
01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:20,880
Speaker 2: pharmaceutical chains that we have, they both have massive loyalty programs.

1311
01:10:21,280 --> 01:10:24,400
Speaker 2: Does it boil down to who is getting their goods

1312
01:10:24,439 --> 01:10:27,080
Speaker 2: for cheaper at the end? Or is there more to

1313
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:29,439
Speaker 2: it than that? Is that like the be all and

1314
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:32,360
Speaker 2: end or is it just one of the factors.

1315
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:35,280
Speaker 13: Steven, I think you're raising a very good point here

1316
01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:39,519
Speaker 13: around price sensitivity in the role loyalty place. So we

1317
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:43,720
Speaker 13: issue every annual white paper for South Africa. It's called

1318
01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:46,320
Speaker 13: the Truth and Brand Map white Paper. It's based off

1319
01:10:46,400 --> 01:10:50,160
Speaker 13: data that is called a Brand Map study, and we're

1320
01:10:50,200 --> 01:10:53,639
Speaker 13: about to we're literally writing now and creating the new

1321
01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:56,920
Speaker 13: white paper for twenty twenty six. So in twenty twenty

1322
01:10:57,000 --> 01:11:01,400
Speaker 13: five's white paper, we saw the mergence of the power

1323
01:11:01,479 --> 01:11:05,640
Speaker 13: of loyalty to help the consumer get through month end.

1324
01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:09,280
Speaker 13: So there were three main concerns raised in this data

1325
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:15,720
Speaker 13: by the South African consumer saying, my biggest concerns in

1326
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:21,960
Speaker 13: life are one crime, corruption and money. I don't have

1327
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:25,640
Speaker 13: enough money. Cost of living. So the third reason for

1328
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:28,559
Speaker 13: people stay awake at night was cost of living. And

1329
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:32,280
Speaker 13: then this study asked, well, what helps you get through

1330
01:11:32,479 --> 01:11:36,639
Speaker 13: the cost of living crisis, and they said, number one,

1331
01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:41,320
Speaker 13: I cut back on clothing clothing spend. Number two, I

1332
01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:44,559
Speaker 13: cut back on going out to restaurants, and number three,

1333
01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:49,519
Speaker 13: I use loyalty programs. So loyalty programs have become not

1334
01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:52,680
Speaker 13: so much a luxury or sort of add on to

1335
01:11:53,640 --> 01:11:57,880
Speaker 13: how consumers survived, but part of their every day, every

1336
01:11:57,920 --> 01:12:03,760
Speaker 13: day method of shopping and making ends meet. So the

1337
01:12:03,920 --> 01:12:07,600
Speaker 13: data last year was eighty two percent of South Africans

1338
01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:11,320
Speaker 13: use loyalty programs. And that's not just eighty two percent

1339
01:12:11,400 --> 01:12:13,360
Speaker 13: might think about it, eighty two percent might have a

1340
01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:17,280
Speaker 13: loyalty card, but eighty two percent actively use loyalty programs.

1341
01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:20,839
Speaker 13: And without giving away the data for this year's white paper,

1342
01:12:21,200 --> 01:12:23,479
Speaker 13: that number definitely hasn't gone down, is all I can

1343
01:12:23,520 --> 01:12:26,960
Speaker 13: say at this stage. So South Africans, it's one of

1344
01:12:27,040 --> 01:12:30,599
Speaker 13: the most mature markets in the world, and the South

1345
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:34,000
Speaker 13: African consumer is one of the most engaged consumer in

1346
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 13: loyalty programs, probably because they need it, and also it's

1347
01:12:39,240 --> 01:12:42,479
Speaker 13: a combination of needing it and wanting it and enjoying it.

1348
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:45,679
Speaker 12: But the needing it is a real big thing here.

1349
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:47,760
Speaker 13: We do see that globally as well, but we see

1350
01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:50,720
Speaker 13: it a lot more here, And I've done interviews with

1351
01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:54,680
Speaker 13: Clicks or FM B, E Bucks, Clicks club Card, F

1352
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:56,840
Speaker 13: and B E Bucks who all confirm the same. They

1353
01:12:56,880 --> 01:13:03,120
Speaker 13: can see how consumers are using their points, whether it's Kapitech,

1354
01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:06,400
Speaker 13: whether it's Ebucks, whether it's Clicks, whether it's disc, all

1355
01:13:06,439 --> 01:13:09,800
Speaker 13: of the big loyalty players. They can all see by

1356
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:12,800
Speaker 13: the way customers are using it that it's helping them

1357
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:16,599
Speaker 13: make ends meet, I mean, clicks go. Milani, Doctor Milani

1358
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:20,880
Speaker 13: Van Roy gave a wonderful example of how maybe a

1359
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:23,760
Speaker 13: decade ago, customers used to use their Clicks club card

1360
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:28,880
Speaker 13: points on luxuries like perfume or lipstick or you know,

1361
01:13:28,920 --> 01:13:32,439
Speaker 13: a treat, whereas now it's being used on basics like

1362
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:34,760
Speaker 13: soap or toothpaste or toilet roll.

1363
01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:38,960
Speaker 12: So there's a shift and that we see in the data,

1364
01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:41,759
Speaker 12: you know, and E Bucks.

1365
01:13:42,040 --> 01:13:44,519
Speaker 13: I've got on record an interview I did with EBU,

1366
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:46,320
Speaker 13: with F and B E Bucks where they say, you

1367
01:13:46,360 --> 01:13:47,759
Speaker 13: know that our.

1368
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:50,120
Speaker 12: Redemption rate is one of the highest.

1369
01:13:50,200 --> 01:13:52,360
Speaker 13: It's definitely one of the highest in South Africa, like

1370
01:13:53,040 --> 01:13:56,479
Speaker 13: over ninety percent of all e bucks issued or used,

1371
01:13:57,240 --> 01:13:59,760
Speaker 13: and that's enormously high and a lot of the time

1372
01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:04,280
Speaker 13: on essentials like utilities or just getting through month ends.

1373
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:08,479
Speaker 2: Sure. Speaking to Amanda chrom Hot Tonight, founder and CEO

1374
01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:10,680
Speaker 2: of Truth on How I make my money on the

1375
01:14:10,720 --> 01:14:12,400
Speaker 2: Money Show. It's eight minute state.

1376
01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:16,519
Speaker 14: The Money Show is still encluted. Is brought to you

1377
01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:22,000
Speaker 14: by Absolve Corporate and Investment Banking, balancing economic growth with ecosystems.

1378
01:14:22,280 --> 01:14:24,639
Speaker 14: That's how they've invested in your.

1379
01:14:24,479 --> 01:14:30,160
Speaker 1: Story Her Money Show, How I Make My Money.

1380
01:14:30,120 --> 01:14:33,080
Speaker 2: Speaking to Amanda Cromhoat, founder and CEO of Truth. She's

1381
01:14:33,120 --> 01:14:37,679
Speaker 2: an expert in consumer loyalty. Amanda, I have a couple

1382
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:40,760
Speaker 2: of questions about about the level of engagement that you

1383
01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:44,520
Speaker 2: talk about and how engaged South Africans AA with loyalty programs.

1384
01:14:45,240 --> 01:14:49,559
Speaker 2: Are they differences among along gender lines? Do you find

1385
01:14:49,640 --> 01:14:54,519
Speaker 2: on one side is more one side? Are women more

1386
01:14:54,520 --> 01:14:57,600
Speaker 2: engaged by men? There I've spat out what I'm really asking.

1387
01:14:59,240 --> 01:14:59,320
Speaker 4: Lo.

1388
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:04,200
Speaker 13: If you'd asked me four years ago, I'd just said absolutely,

1389
01:15:04,520 --> 01:15:09,040
Speaker 13: and I think the predictable answer would have been women's shoppers,

1390
01:15:09,040 --> 01:15:12,679
Speaker 13: female shoppers or consumers are more engaged in using lorty

1391
01:15:12,680 --> 01:15:13,400
Speaker 13: programs more.

1392
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:14,519
Speaker 12: But the very.

1393
01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:18,080
Speaker 13: Interesting thing is now it's marginally it's either the same

1394
01:15:18,200 --> 01:15:22,280
Speaker 13: or just marginally different, and we saw that shift after COVID.

1395
01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:26,479
Speaker 13: So during COVID, I think with the balance of folks

1396
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:29,200
Speaker 13: working from home and then probably more of a balance

1397
01:15:29,240 --> 01:15:34,120
Speaker 13: of the everyday chores like buying groceries or popping out

1398
01:15:34,760 --> 01:15:39,400
Speaker 13: by nappies or whatever, we saw the shift change and

1399
01:15:39,760 --> 01:15:43,200
Speaker 13: male consumers becoming much more engaged. So female consumers didn't

1400
01:15:43,280 --> 01:15:46,880
Speaker 13: drop their engagement, but male consumers have caught up. We

1401
01:15:46,960 --> 01:15:50,200
Speaker 13: do see a slight difference if you take it category

1402
01:15:50,240 --> 01:15:56,040
Speaker 13: by category. So typically fashion shopping is more female dominated

1403
01:15:56,080 --> 01:16:00,479
Speaker 13: by females. In the lorty engagement or fuel per purchases

1404
01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:04,680
Speaker 13: and retail banking is more male consumers are engaged. But

1405
01:16:04,840 --> 01:16:08,360
Speaker 13: if you take overall in across all South African lorty

1406
01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:11,240
Speaker 13: programs at South African consumers.

1407
01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:13,439
Speaker 12: It is pretty much like for like in an age.

1408
01:16:13,479 --> 01:16:16,920
Speaker 13: If you look at age differences, we see a younger consumer.

1409
01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:21,519
Speaker 13: By younger we say between eighteen and twenty five, they

1410
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:24,519
Speaker 13: are very much less engaged, and I think it's a

1411
01:16:24,560 --> 01:16:28,400
Speaker 13: reflection of their ability to spend. You know that either

1412
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:33,200
Speaker 13: just starting out in life or they're still students or unemployed,

1413
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:37,040
Speaker 13: so they have less disposable income, less need of using

1414
01:16:37,280 --> 01:16:42,160
Speaker 13: Lorty programs, but that catches up. We're not seeing that

1415
01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:44,360
Speaker 13: gap get bigger every year, but we're not seeing them

1416
01:16:44,439 --> 01:16:48,080
Speaker 13: catch up to the average South African consumer.

1417
01:16:49,680 --> 01:16:52,960
Speaker 2: You talk, I know, you speak internationally and you've spoken

1418
01:16:52,960 --> 01:16:56,160
Speaker 2: in many places and very big events too. Are our

1419
01:16:56,200 --> 01:17:00,000
Speaker 2: consumer programs different to what happens in other countries? I mean,

1420
01:16:59,720 --> 01:17:02,040
Speaker 2: I mean, I would think the Americans must have sort

1421
01:17:02,040 --> 01:17:04,200
Speaker 2: of built this. I mean maybe they didn't have no idea,

1422
01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:07,280
Speaker 2: but that's just my presumption. I mean our program is

1423
01:17:07,280 --> 01:17:08,680
Speaker 2: different to other places.

1424
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:14,160
Speaker 12: So I'm going to absolutely correct you there. So we

1425
01:17:14,240 --> 01:17:14,760
Speaker 12: are one.

1426
01:17:14,920 --> 01:17:17,920
Speaker 13: I really am saying this without any bias. And I'm

1427
01:17:17,960 --> 01:17:21,960
Speaker 13: originally I'm British, so I'm originally from the UK. So

1428
01:17:23,400 --> 01:17:26,400
Speaker 13: I love the South African market not just because I

1429
01:17:26,439 --> 01:17:28,960
Speaker 13: love living here, but because I feel that this market

1430
01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:32,599
Speaker 13: is very advanced and mature in the loyalty industry. Now,

1431
01:17:33,000 --> 01:17:36,519
Speaker 13: why is that it wasn't necessarily I'd say ten years ago,

1432
01:17:36,560 --> 01:17:38,320
Speaker 13: I'd say they're still catching up to do, but it's

1433
01:17:38,320 --> 01:17:42,519
Speaker 13: been this huge explosion and there's no way, you know,

1434
01:17:42,560 --> 01:17:44,840
Speaker 13: if I look if I look at just from my

1435
01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:47,639
Speaker 13: experience and talking to brands and working with brands around

1436
01:17:47,680 --> 01:17:50,519
Speaker 13: the world and then working with the South African brands,

1437
01:17:51,200 --> 01:17:55,000
Speaker 13: we are most definitely one of the best markets. But

1438
01:17:55,080 --> 01:17:57,640
Speaker 13: that is also proven by I'm a judge on the

1439
01:17:57,680 --> 01:18:00,679
Speaker 13: International Loyalty Awards. I'm also the chair of the South

1440
01:18:00,720 --> 01:18:04,240
Speaker 13: African and African Lawty Awards, and we see the South

1441
01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:08,120
Speaker 13: African brands on the global stage outperforming.

1442
01:18:07,520 --> 01:18:10,400
Speaker 12: The other countries.

1443
01:18:10,479 --> 01:18:13,599
Speaker 13: So other retailers are the financial services brands.

1444
01:18:13,640 --> 01:18:16,320
Speaker 12: So it's not just me saying it. It's not just

1445
01:18:16,360 --> 01:18:16,759
Speaker 12: a bias.

1446
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:19,200
Speaker 13: There's a judging panel of I think there's about thirty

1447
01:18:19,280 --> 01:18:22,080
Speaker 13: judges of which I'm one of them on the International awards,

1448
01:18:22,640 --> 01:18:26,759
Speaker 13: and last year the South African brands as a country,

1449
01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:31,840
Speaker 13: we took home more awards than anywhere else, USA, UK

1450
01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:35,439
Speaker 13: and so on. Now there's still elements where I feel

1451
01:18:35,479 --> 01:18:40,720
Speaker 13: we could catch up in terms of delivery in the marketplace.

1452
01:18:41,160 --> 01:18:43,240
Speaker 13: But if I look at what some of the brands

1453
01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:45,400
Speaker 13: are doing, and some of them we've mentioned already tonight,

1454
01:18:45,560 --> 01:18:49,080
Speaker 13: they are definitely ahead or on a par with international progress.

1455
01:18:49,320 --> 01:18:51,720
Speaker 2: Amanda. We've got literally thirty seconds, which is going to

1456
01:18:51,720 --> 01:18:54,280
Speaker 2: be unfair because I kind of wonder how this is

1457
01:18:54,320 --> 01:18:57,280
Speaker 2: going to evolve from. Yet it gets hugely competitive there

1458
01:18:57,320 --> 01:18:58,880
Speaker 2: was an important report out I think it was from

1459
01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:02,439
Speaker 2: Consumer Intelligence a couple of weeks ago, suggesting that this

1460
01:19:02,720 --> 01:19:05,280
Speaker 2: was in some cases erring on the wrong side. The

1461
01:19:05,320 --> 01:19:07,879
Speaker 2: balance was wrong, it was costing companies too much money.

1462
01:19:08,120 --> 01:19:12,200
Speaker 2: It's only going to get more intense, I think so.

1463
01:19:12,720 --> 01:19:17,360
Speaker 13: But I think brands will get smarter at doing it better, quicker, lower,

1464
01:19:17,840 --> 01:19:20,280
Speaker 13: lower cost, and better return for customers.

1465
01:19:20,280 --> 01:19:22,040
Speaker 12: Hopefully the end of the day, it's going to be

1466
01:19:22,080 --> 01:19:22,799
Speaker 12: good for the customer.

1467
01:19:22,800 --> 01:19:27,640
Speaker 13: Otherwise, maybe consumer intelligences onto something, but I think the

1468
01:19:27,640 --> 01:19:30,799
Speaker 13: brands will out smart that and with the use of AI,

1469
01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:34,519
Speaker 13: with the use of data and personalization, we'll get it right.

1470
01:19:35,320 --> 01:19:37,920
Speaker 2: Amanda, I thoroughly enjoyed talking to you. I found that

1471
01:19:38,120 --> 01:19:41,320
Speaker 2: really very interesting. Thank you very much. Indeed, Amanda Cromhote

1472
01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:45,000
Speaker 2: is the founder and CEO of Truth. The next time

1473
01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:47,680
Speaker 2: you feel loyalty to a brand, you can blame her.

1474
01:19:49,840 --> 01:19:52,439
Speaker 14: The Money Show, Stephen Croute, is brought to you by

1475
01:19:52,520 --> 01:19:57,600
Speaker 14: Absolute Corporate and Investment Banking, balancing economic growth with ecosystems.

1476
01:19:57,920 --> 01:20:00,519
Speaker 14: That's how they've invested in your story.

1477
01:20:02,280 --> 01:20:05,559
Speaker 2: Well, looking at the US markets, despite how things started

1478
01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:08,200
Speaker 2: here this morning, things looking a lot better now. The

1479
01:20:08,280 --> 01:20:10,320
Speaker 2: Dow Jones up a full percent, and as the cup

1480
01:20:10,320 --> 01:20:12,479
Speaker 2: point seven seven s and P five hundred up point

1481
01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:15,320
Speaker 2: sixty six percent at the moment. And of course, one

1482
01:20:15,360 --> 01:20:19,560
Speaker 2: of the big questions is what's happening around gold and platinum.

1483
01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:23,920
Speaker 2: We've seen the bitcoin continuing to decline below eighty one

1484
01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:27,000
Speaker 2: thousand dollars at the moment per bitcoin, was it one

1485
01:20:27,080 --> 01:20:30,839
Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars. You'll remember the high gold, the recovery

1486
01:20:30,960 --> 01:20:33,360
Speaker 2: sort of stalling. It's at four thousand, seven hundred and

1487
01:20:33,360 --> 01:20:35,559
Speaker 2: sixty dollars at the moment, so far off where it

1488
01:20:35,720 --> 01:20:39,280
Speaker 2: was last week. We'll be back with you tomorrow. Good evening,

1489
01:20:39,360 --> 01:20:40,120
Speaker 2: it's eight o'clock