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Speaker 1: Artificial intelligence is everywhere right now, and certainly I know

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Speaker 1: we are using it for everything from designing promotional ads

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Speaker 1: to in my personal capacity, helping to plan travel itineraries

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Speaker 1: and the like. But while many of us adults are

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Speaker 1: still at the point of starting to figure it out

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Speaker 1: and learn what it can do and how to use

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Speaker 1: it as usual, many of our kids are way ahead

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Speaker 1: of us, already out there using AI and integrating it

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Speaker 1: into their daily lives. And in fact, there's very interesting

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Speaker 1: new research coming out of the organization Common Sense Media

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Speaker 1: talking about how our teens are using it.

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Speaker 2: That they are not merely using.

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Speaker 1: AI to help with their schoolwork or generate an introduction

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Speaker 1: for their essay. They're also turning to it for conversation,

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Speaker 1: for support, and for guidance. And some say in this

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Speaker 1: feedback to the survey that they're not only chatting to

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Speaker 1: it for practical advice, but that talking to AI can

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Speaker 1: feel as satisfying as talking to friends. And I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that is for some quite an unsettling prospect. I find

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Speaker 1: it a little bit scary that the thought of talking

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Speaker 1: to a computer bot can feel as satisfying as talking

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Speaker 1: to an actual human being. It's one that requires us

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Speaker 1: to have some serious conversations around boundaries and privacy as

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Speaker 1: well as genuine emotional support and guidance. So we thought

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Speaker 1: today we would spend some time looking at how parents

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Speaker 1: can support their families as we adapt to this rapidly

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Speaker 1: changing digital world, and how we do that when we

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Speaker 1: ourselves are not even all fair with the platforms that

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Speaker 1: our kids are using now. To help us unpack what

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Speaker 1: we didn't know we didn't know, it's a pleasure to

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Speaker 1: welcome back to the social media attorney and digital parenting expert,

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Speaker 1: Sarah Hoffman. She is the co founder of Clicked, which

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Speaker 1: helps parents and educators and young people to build safer,

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Speaker 1: healthier relationships with technology.

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Speaker 2: Sarah, it's great to have you on the show again.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back, Thank you Papa. So great to be here.

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Speaker 3: And I feel that since I was last on the show,

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Speaker 3: there's just been so many developments, so much to talk about.

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Speaker 3: Something I'm really excited to be on the show today.

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Speaker 1: So glad to have you back, and I think very

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Speaker 1: needed as well, because, as you rightly say, Sarah, the

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Speaker 1: technology is developing so rapidly that the minute you feel

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Speaker 1: like you've got on top of the one platform your

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Speaker 1: kids are using it's already in the dustbin and has

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Speaker 1: been replaced by something else, And particularly when it comes

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Speaker 1: to AI, it's a space that many parents are feeling

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable in, whereas many of our kids seem to have

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Speaker 1: already made themselves at home and got quite comfy with it.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to start by sharing some examples with

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Speaker 1: us of how youngsters are using AI in their everyday

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Speaker 1: lives right now?

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Speaker 3: Yes, for sure. And I just want to start off

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Speaker 3: this whole conversation saying that if you're a parent listening,

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Speaker 3: we fully understand that this has never been a harder

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Speaker 3: time to parents because we really all just navigating in

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Speaker 3: the dark hair. We can't ask our own parents, you know, well,

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Speaker 3: how did you decide when I was ready for chat,

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Speaker 3: GPT or some chat or a smartphone or whatever. We

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Speaker 3: really just all figuring them out together. But how are

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Speaker 3: our kids using it? So? I think I put it

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Speaker 3: in two main categories. Similarly to what you were describing

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Speaker 3: how you personally use it, I'd say there's the academic

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Speaker 3: school catching in the personal use in a school sort

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Speaker 3: of academic category, kids are using it from anything from

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Speaker 3: explaining concepts or maybe difficult writing systems. Maybe they put

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Speaker 3: in a paragraph that's written in ESNA improve this. Sometimes

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Speaker 3: they're asking chat, GBT or a large language model to

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Speaker 3: do a whole assignment or a whole ural and not

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Speaker 3: disclosing it. Sometimes they're completing projects. Sometimes they're asking it

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Speaker 3: for coding help. I mean, every second, there are such

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Speaker 3: drastic developments in this technology. They're often using it for

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Speaker 3: research now instead of Google. I don't know if you've

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Speaker 3: noticed when you now google something the first hit that

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Speaker 3: comes up is that it's not just a normal Google

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Speaker 3: hit from a new source or another source. So there

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Speaker 3: is a range. But I mean, the research that we're

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Speaker 3: seeing is that more than half of teenagers are ready

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Speaker 3: using air to help with their homework, and often without

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Speaker 3: their parents even realizing. And they kind of pretty charp

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Speaker 3: that they can have the time and God and do

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Speaker 3: whatever they were doing. But we do need to ask ourselves,

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Speaker 3: and I'm sure we'll get onto it. What are they

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Speaker 3: missing out on in shortcutting a lot of these important processes?

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Speaker 1: Yes, Okay, so that's the academic side what I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of parents find particularly scary because you can,

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Speaker 1: to some extent manage the academic side, and.

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Speaker 2: Teachers can do plagiarism checks, etc.

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Speaker 1: But the personal stuff is what I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of people find very scary. The very idea of a

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Speaker 1: teenager turning to a chatbot for advice and guidance when

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Speaker 1: they're struggling with an emotional problem, for example, is pretty scary,

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Speaker 1: particularly given what we know about how often AI hallucinates

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Speaker 1: and gets things wrong.

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Speaker 2: So that's pretty terrifying, sir, completely.

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Speaker 3: And I have to tell you that this particular part

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Speaker 3: is something that really keeps me up at night. So

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Speaker 3: you know, we're seeing that teenagers and even tweens are

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Speaker 3: turning to AI chatbots to ask questions that maybe they

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Speaker 3: just don't feel like asking an adult, or maybe they

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Speaker 3: feel uncomfortable, you know. And it's anything from how should

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Speaker 3: I ask this girl out on a date? To more

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Speaker 3: intense questions. And you know, sometimes there is an argument

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Speaker 3: to be made that if a child does not have

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Speaker 3: resources to a therapist or a social worker, even a parent,

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Speaker 3: it could you know, sometimes the answers are really wonderful,

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Speaker 3: but we really do need to proceed with caution. And

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Speaker 3: you know, I love this term purpose synthetic intimacy. It

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Speaker 3: is teaching our children this concept of synthetic intimacy at

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Speaker 3: this critical critical point in their life when they need

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Speaker 3: to be flexing the muscles of how do I look

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Speaker 3: someone in the eye and resolve a conflict, and how

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Speaker 3: do I ask a difficult question and push through that

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Speaker 3: situation and how do I you know, and they just

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Speaker 3: turn into this track pot because it feels much easier.

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Speaker 3: And the tratbot is psychosantic. That means it's only going

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Speaker 3: to tell the child or the team what they want

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Speaker 3: to hear. It's not going to say, listen, it's time

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Speaker 3: to have some have love, buddy, you know, I need

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Speaker 3: to know this. It's really designed to be sycouthantic. And

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Speaker 3: you know, the more sinister risks are that there have

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Speaker 3: been a number of court cases coming out now where

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Speaker 3: the chatbots are not sophisticated enough to flag children who

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Speaker 3: are really at risk. So we've seen cases. There was

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Speaker 3: a case just the last year where a boy in

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Speaker 3: the years he was sixteen years old, called Adam Rain

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Speaker 3: his parents actually sued Open AI because he was feeling lonely,

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Speaker 3: was feeling depressed, he was feeling anxious, as many teenagers

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Speaker 3: do in the day and age. He turned to AI

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Speaker 3: for advice and the chatbot actually advised him on how

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Speaker 3: to tie a noose, and there was no mechanism to

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Speaker 3: flag his parents. And something that I really want to

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Speaker 3: make your listeners aware of is that what app also

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Speaker 3: has a chatbot. Now for a lot of parents, what

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Speaker 3: app is the first sort of app that kids get

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Speaker 3: when they're going to get a device, because it's used

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Speaker 3: What's groups, and it's you, it's for social arrangements and

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Speaker 3: often parents will communicate with their children on WhatsApp. And

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Speaker 3: if you look at your WhatsApp now, you'll see that

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Speaker 3: at the very top there is a meta AI chatbot

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Speaker 3: and you can't toggle it all. It's just standard with

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Speaker 3: any kind of WhatsApp that you have. And I was

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Speaker 3: actually testing it up the other day and I spoke

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Speaker 3: as if I was an eleven year old girl. So

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Speaker 3: I said, you know, so and so was horrible to

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Speaker 3: me at school and I had a bad day, and

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Speaker 3: it really gave me some solid advice and you know,

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Speaker 3: if we were calling, you have the nicknames by the

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Speaker 3: end of the conversation, and then I wanted to test

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Speaker 3: the platform, so I took it up a notch and

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Speaker 3: I said, this is just too much for me. I

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Speaker 3: think I want to end things. And while the chatbots

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Speaker 3: did send me sat X number and last six number,

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Speaker 3: and it did recommend that I, you know, speak to

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Speaker 3: a trusted adult, it didn't flag an adult because it's

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Speaker 3: not a program to do that. There's no parental controls.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I think the thing I really worry

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Speaker 3: about is that a lot of parents don't even realize

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Speaker 3: that the kids are having these conversations. Yeah, with this check, but.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Sarah, you've you've touched on so many things.

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Speaker 1: But the thing I'm coming back to is is something

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Speaker 1: you referenced a couple of minutes ago when you said,

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Speaker 1: it's not just about what they're getting access to on

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Speaker 1: the platforms, it's what they are not learning to master

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Speaker 1: in real life, what they're missing out on in real

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Speaker 1: life because they're turning to an artificial platform to offer this.

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Speaker 1: And fair point, Brendan writes, getting advice has always been risky.

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Speaker 1: Lots of people and parents give bad advice too, and

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Speaker 1: point take and Brendan, it's a fair comment.

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Speaker 2: But the point is.

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Speaker 1: Here, Sarah, that there is no there's no buffer, there's

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Speaker 1: no sort of redirect, and there's also, as you said,

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Speaker 1: there's no filtering of this is actually something I'm not

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Speaker 1: qualified to speak to you about or offer advice on.

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Speaker 1: There's no sort of potential for a redirect to the

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Speaker 1: right person to get advice, which is quite scary.

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Speaker 2: Do you want to just elaborate a little bit.

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Speaker 1: On this issue of what they're missing out on, because,

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Speaker 1: as you've said, I love that phrase. You use the flexing,

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Speaker 1: the muscle of learning, the skill of looking someone in

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Speaker 1: the eye, of learning to dump somebody in person when

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Speaker 1: you're breaking up a relationship, for example, which is now

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Speaker 1: being done by WhatsApp.

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Speaker 2: Skills like that are essential.

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Speaker 1: Life skills that well, I'm going to say, I think

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Speaker 1: you absolutely essentially have to master in order to function

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Speaker 1: in society. But maybe I'm thinking of society as I

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Speaker 1: grew up in it, and not the society of the future.

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Speaker 2: Sarah.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I'm being a little bit shortsighted there.

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Speaker 3: I don't think so, Peper, because you know, actually we've

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Speaker 3: been talking to parents for years now about managing technology

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Speaker 3: and obviously now managing AI and obviously from a parenting perspective,

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Speaker 3: and what we always say, the number one question I

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Speaker 3: get we did ask that clicked is to tell me

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Speaker 3: the magic number how much screen time should they be

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Speaker 3: allowed to tell me? And it doesn't matter if your

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Speaker 3: child is two years old and it's pepper peg or

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Speaker 3: they and they just want to scroll TikTok or snapchat

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Speaker 3: all day long. The question we have to ask is

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Speaker 3: not how many hours it is, As I said, what

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Speaker 3: is the screen displacing? And what is that technology displacing?

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Speaker 3: And as we said, what developmental skills? And you'll see

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Speaker 3: where I'm going with aar Now, what developmental skills that

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Speaker 3: my child needs to be gaining? Is this technology actually replacing?

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Speaker 3: And what worries me about AI is it's arrived in

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Speaker 3: a digital environment where our children are already struggling with

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Speaker 3: efforts and attention because they already have been watching YouTube

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Speaker 3: shorts and they're expecting constant simulation and constant reward, and

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Speaker 3: they already used to things happening so quickly and easily

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Speaker 3: that their relationship with struggle is already compromised, their ability

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Speaker 3: to have their ability to push through something hard and

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Speaker 3: come out the other side. And the problem with AI

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Speaker 3: now is it actually just takes that struggle out or together,

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Speaker 3: and that you know, I really believe that in an

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Speaker 3: age where computers and are automating so many things. The

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Speaker 3: real human skills we need, the real skills our children

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Speaker 3: need rather are those human skills are the ability to

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Speaker 3: look somebody in the eye, are the ability to manage conflict,

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Speaker 3: and the ability to fail and push through and overcome

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Speaker 3: to deal with something hard. And those you know, a

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Speaker 3: lot of their technology already, and this has just taken

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Speaker 3: up such a notch with air is removing that frustration

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Speaker 3: tolerance all together. And as we said, it's just preventing

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Speaker 3: them from developing those muscles to do hard things. So

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Speaker 3: it's becoming so hard to do hard things, and IRS

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Speaker 3: just up the anti tremendously in the space.

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Speaker 1: You know, we can see it in the workplace. But

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Speaker 1: something as simple as the way people choose to communicate

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Speaker 1: with some of the newer, younger incoming colleagues, and no

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Speaker 1: disrespect to any of them, but it is noticeable that

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Speaker 1: they will go to any length and whatsoever to avoid

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Speaker 1: making a phone call in person.

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Speaker 2: For example.

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Speaker 1: Correct because they've got so used to doing everything by

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Speaker 1: WhatsApp or you know, at a push email. But but

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Speaker 1: but WhatsApp and instant response and instant access, but do

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Speaker 1: anything to avoid the personal conversation over an actual phone light,

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Speaker 1: and you know to your point that you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: they don't need it. Maybe they are going to work

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Speaker 1: in a workplace where WhatsApp does everything, and that's fine,

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Speaker 1: but there are other skills, human touch points that you've

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Speaker 1: got to learn to master if you get a function

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Speaker 1: in this world and function in community with other people. So, Sarah,

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Speaker 1: then the million dollar question is, I mean they're on

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Speaker 1: the platforms already. We as the adults are starting to

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Speaker 1: see the platforms and the use of AI enter our workspaces.

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Speaker 1: We've got to learn to hop on board and master

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Speaker 1: what we are being asked to work with. What is

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Speaker 1: your advice on how to set boundaries around you know,

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Speaker 1: saying we're not going to expect you to go and

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Speaker 1: live in a forest with no Wi Fi and no

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Speaker 1: devices or no.

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Speaker 2: Access to AI.

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Speaker 1: As much as it would be nice, that's not going

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Speaker 1: to happen. So what is your advice on parents on

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Speaker 1: how to say, well, this is what we've got to

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Speaker 1: learn to work with. Where do you start setting the

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Speaker 1: boundaries and putting safe parameters in place?

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Speaker 3: Sure? So, I think I actually want to answer that

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Speaker 3: question in two parts because I think schools have a

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Speaker 3: big role to play as well as parents. So I

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Speaker 3: think from a school perspective, as we said, kids are

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Speaker 3: using AAR whether we like it or not, they are

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Speaker 3: using it to generate homework, they're using it to deliver

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Speaker 3: fool are Also, schools really need to urgently put boundaries

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Speaker 3: and guidelines in place around how, when and where are

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Speaker 3: may be used and because it's happening whether they like

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Speaker 3: it or not. And my great concern for schools is

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Speaker 3: they if this isn't regulated, there's a huge opportunity cost

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Speaker 3: in terms of critical thinking that you know our children,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's kind of like saying you can read

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Speaker 3: the number eight, you can be the number eight. Now

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Speaker 3: you can use a calculator. For the rest of maths,

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Speaker 3: the rest of school, they're not going to develop those

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Speaker 3: critical critical skills. So I think there's a huge and

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Speaker 3: very urgent responsibility on schools to put policies in place,

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Speaker 3: and we do have a very comprehensive school policy at

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Speaker 3: CLICKT that helps schools put those policies in place around how,

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Speaker 3: when and where air should be used, at what age

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Speaker 3: it should start, what that looks like, et cetera. How

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Speaker 3: assessment can take place to make sure that students haven't

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Speaker 3: used AI, how it's disclosed and so on. And then

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Speaker 3: from a parenting perspective, as with any technology, I think

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Speaker 3: as parents we have to be open and not judgmental

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Speaker 3: around these conversations. They need to be It's not one conversation,

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Speaker 3: it's hundreds of conversations. We need to ask us our

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Speaker 3: children in a nonjudgmental way, how they're using it, are

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Speaker 3: their friends using it? Use it together sometime and life.

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Speaker 3: With any technology, there are skills that our students do

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Speaker 3: need to learn to use this platform effectively. Our children

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Speaker 3: need to know that AI can get it wrong and

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Speaker 3: that the information needs to be verified. You know. Example

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Speaker 3: I love using is if you have two students who

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Speaker 3: one just for example, one the Man United fan and

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Speaker 3: one is a Liverpool fan. And the Man United fan

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Speaker 3: says to the chatbot, who's the best soccer team in

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Speaker 3: the world, The Chatbot's going to say Man United. And

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Speaker 3: if the Liverpool fan says who's the best soccer team

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Speaker 3: in the world the Liverpool, that chatbot is going to

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Speaker 3: say Liverpool. Because they designed to give the answers that

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Speaker 3: you want to be hearing. So we have to teach

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Speaker 3: our children critical thinking and to cross examine and to

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Speaker 3: verify and skills like recognizing how to tell if an

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Speaker 3: image is deep sake generated. We haven't even spoken about

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Speaker 3: the risks of deep sake images being distributed, you know,

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Speaker 3: the legal consequences. That's a whole other category of use

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Speaker 3: that our students are also using AAR four in a

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Speaker 3: not so positive way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Sarah and I think we need to schedule the

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Speaker 1: fun up conversation on that topic alone.

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Speaker 2: For now, we do have to wrap there.

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Speaker 1: But thank you as always incredibly insightful and practical in

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Speaker 1: your help. We appreciate your time and to listen who

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Speaker 1: are enjoying this conversation and would like to read up

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Speaker 1: more and get the kind of help that Sarah is

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Speaker 1: saying telling you is available, please check out the website

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Speaker 1: of Clicked, which is k l I k D dot

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Speaker 1: co dot zed a Sarah Hoffman. It's definitely a two

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Speaker 1: B continued conversation. Thank you for your time.

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Speaker 2: The second though, keep well, have a great there you too,