1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,080 Speaker 1: I think we can describe it as good news. In fact, 2 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: some of the animal welfare groups are calling it historic news, 3 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: an historic step towards ending one of the country's most 4 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: controversial wildlife industries. What has happened is that the National 5 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: Council of Provinces has approved a draft notice that would 6 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 1: stop the creation of new captive. 7 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 2: Line breeding facilities. 8 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: This is, of course an industry that's long been criticized 9 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: for a number of different practices, including cub petting, canned 10 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: lion hunting and the like, as well as the trade 11 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: in lion bones. So it's not an absolute ban on 12 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: the industry, but certainly a good start to say we 13 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: will not allow any new facilities to open, and to 14 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: talk to us about how significant a move that is. 15 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to welcome back to the show for Pause, 16 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: the Global Animal Welfare Organization and their South African director, 17 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: Fiona Miles is on the line with me now. Welcome 18 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: to the show, Fia, are not always great to. 19 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 2: Talk to you. 20 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 3: Thanks thanks for having me. 21 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,639 Speaker 1: How significant is this decision by the National Council of Provinces. 22 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: What is making you describe it as such a significant 23 00:00:58,840 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: turning point? 24 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 3: Well, it's a significant turning point, although it is only 25 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 3: the first step, but what it does signal is a 26 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 3: national commitment to ethical wildlife management. As you mentioned, for 27 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 3: so long lines have been traded, we've used them for 28 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 3: competing and all sorts of other commodification, and this of 29 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 3: course compromises their their welfare, It definitely damages biodiversity and 30 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 3: harms our reputation as a global leader in ethical conservation. 31 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 3: So the restoration of international confidence in South Africa is 32 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 3: on the horizon if we can stop new facilities from 33 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 3: entering into the system. And most significantly and more importantly, 34 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 3: the first step would be of course for the Minister 35 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 3: Okamp to enact this and secondly to then further carry 36 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 3: on with the with the legislative process, which means that 37 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 3: we want to see that the next step is the 38 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 3: prohibition of breeding of lions. 39 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 2: Okay. 40 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: I think perhaps, Fiona, it might be useful to alert 41 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: our listeners to the scale and scope of these practices 42 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: in South Africa, because I'm sure that there are plenty 43 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: of listeners going listening to this who just aren't aware 44 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 1: of how widespread it is and some of the more 45 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: problematic practices associated with us. 46 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 2: Do you want to give us a bit of a 47 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 2: big picture of you. 48 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 3: Sure, thank you. In South Africa, we estimate there to 49 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 3: be ten to twelve thousand lions in captivity across more 50 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 3: than three hundred and fifty breeding farms at the moment. 51 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 3: So that's why this is this movie significant, is not 52 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,519 Speaker 3: to allow more of these farms to potentially start up 53 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 3: and start breeding. Those are just lions and then other 54 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 3: big cats, other predators are also being intensively bred, tigers 55 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 3: in specific. And you know that's a huge number of animals. 56 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 3: This has been allowed to grow over the last thirty 57 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 3: forty years, and so there's always this high number of 58 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 3: animals coming into the system and you know, it's it's 59 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 3: a vicious cycle, is what we call it. Because these 60 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 3: lions are bred into captivity, so they're taken away from 61 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 3: them at a very young age within a couple of days. 62 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 3: It means that they're not getting the necessary nutrition that 63 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,519 Speaker 3: they need in order to grow correctly. We've seen many 64 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 3: cases where these these lines have got deficiencies and it 65 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 3: really affects their welfare for the rest of their life. 66 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 3: They come then into into the tourism components of it 67 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 3: for people to pet cubs. So many facilities are open 68 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 3: to the public where one can interact with and pet 69 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 3: lion cubs or go and walk with line experiences. This 70 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 3: is of course completely not natural. Those those cubs are 71 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 3: manhandled and habituated to people, which makes them more so dangerous. 72 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 3: We've heard many stories of you know, tigers and lions 73 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 3: then get in backyards and and you know, raised up 74 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 3: as pets. But happens when they get too old to 75 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 3: be interacted with anymore. And of course that's in these 76 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 3: facilities where they go on to further breeding to perpetuate 77 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 3: the cycle, and then are also sold for trophy hunting, 78 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 3: you know where they're they're magnificent, beautiful mains and heads 79 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 3: are then stuck on a wall and worse than that, 80 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 3: then they are also harvested for their bones, for traditional 81 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 3: medicines and for other sort of trinkets and things like that. 82 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 3: So the entire life cycle of these animals is one 83 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 3: that's born into this commodification and into a really unnatural situation. 84 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 3: And in South Africa there's only about two thousand lines 85 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 3: left in the wild, so those industries is huge. And 86 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 3: the messaging that comes is to say that you know, 87 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 3: they are for conservation, purposes, but none of these animals 88 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 3: has been rehabilitated back into the wild, so it's not 89 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 3: for conservation purposes, but for a closed industry that's for 90 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 3: profit and not for conservation. 91 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: Okay, thank you for just explaining that. 92 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: So and let me just remindless as again of those 93 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: stats you shared, two thousand lines in the wild, ten 94 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 1: to twelve thousand lines the estimate that are living in 95 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: breeding farms within this industry. 96 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, Valery very strong on the. 97 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: WhatsApp line saying I hate these bloody line abuses. It 98 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: shouldn't be legal in her view. I'm sure this of 99 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 1: you shared by many others. Now, Fiona, let's talk about 100 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: the legal steps here. I mean you've mentioned that, you 101 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: know the NCOP saying tick to the draft notice is 102 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: an important first step, but it is only a first step. 103 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: You mentioned the Minister now needs to enact that notice. 104 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: What's the sort of procedure going forward from here? What 105 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 1: are the next steps that have to be followed? 106 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 3: Well, the next steps is that recording strongly on the 107 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 3: Minister to enact that, and it means that only with 108 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 3: his permission would a new facility be able to be opened, 109 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 3: and that would be a facility that has to be 110 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 3: a true sansone thanks through standards and requirements which accrue 111 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 3: sanctuary being one that does not breed, trade, hunt or 112 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 3: allow interactions. And that I think is really significant because 113 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 3: of course we would love that lyon farmers in the 114 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 3: country who have of course been allowed legally to you know, 115 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 3: conduct this business, actually themselves step forward voluntarily. So during 116 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 3: when the former Minister for Environment, Barbara Creasty announced that 117 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 3: they intend to halt and reverse the domestication of lions, 118 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 3: a rigorous process which included a lot of public participation 119 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 3: was put together. A ministerial task team was put together 120 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 3: to engage with not only line farmers but with the 121 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 3: public and civil society organizations like ourselves to look at 122 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 3: what a voluntary x it would look like. And this 123 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 3: is really important because it's it's not just a complete 124 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 3: ban and outright ban and suddenly what do we do 125 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 3: with ten dozen lines, But it's a measured approach to 126 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 3: see how some of these facilities can actually continue to 127 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 3: look after the animals, but uphold and improve the well 128 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 3: their welfare, to stop the breeding, and to finally of 129 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 3: course phase out and consider alternative business models. So it's 130 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 3: a it's a measured approach. The Ministerial Task Team did 131 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 3: a great job in the entire process and obviously, you know, 132 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 3: Fourpost stands with not only the government but also with 133 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 3: the industry to try and find solutions for the welfare 134 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 3: of these animals because it's a big responsibility that we've 135 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 3: been allowed to, you know, to perpetuate your South Africa 136 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 3: must take much more targeted steps and an approach to 137 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 3: really you know, see and enter it. And it's not 138 00:07:58,000 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 3: something that's going to happen overnight. 139 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, just for anybody coming in midway to 140 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: this interview, our guest on the line Fiona Miles, the 141 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: director of Four Paws South Africa. Four Pause of course, 142 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: being a global animal welfare organization, very encouraged by the 143 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: news that the National Council of Provinces has approved a 144 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: draft notice that would stop the creation of new captive 145 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: line breeding facilities and wanting to see a sense of 146 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: urgency in pushing this through. But yeah, the question then 147 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: becomes and several people asking the same thing, Fiona, You've 148 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: alluded to it already, what happens to those lions already 149 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: in these facilities, because you can't just release ten to 150 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: twelve thousand habituated lines into the wild, it would obviously 151 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: be a recipe before complete and utter pandemonium. So if 152 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: from understanding you correctly, you support the idea of a 153 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: gradual transition away no new incoming cubs because you've stopped 154 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: the breeding program, allowing the ones that are already there 155 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: to hopefully be better cared for in a more appropriate environment. 156 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: But but no intention to put animals down or just 157 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 1: not shut down the facilities. 158 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 2: Is that correct? 159 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 3: That's that's correct, because of course if it would be 160 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 3: also a huge reputational risks to our country. So to 161 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 3: care for those animals in the correct way and to 162 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,599 Speaker 3: do an absolute proper order to under a veterinary situation, 163 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 3: I would say, because many of those animals are compromised, 164 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 3: and so only a veterinary, you know, veterinarian will be 165 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 3: able to make that core And I think that's really 166 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 3: important is that that the animals are also assessed to 167 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 3: understand their their welfare, their well being. So as it's 168 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 3: going to take a lot of work, a lot of 169 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 3: combined work by many organizations to support and we really 170 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 3: do do encourage and and sort of I'm going to 171 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 3: say insist now that we start working towards us, because 172 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:52,959 Speaker 3: it's going to take a long time, and every single 173 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 3: day that more cubs are born into captivity, it just 174 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:58,959 Speaker 3: means more suffering, and that's what we need to work 175 00:09:59,000 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 3: together to to end. 176 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: You've alluded to the reputational risk, Dennis feeling it too, 177 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: saying this captive line industry should be ended immediately. It 178 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: gives essay a very shabby reputation. It obviously, sadly also 179 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: does attract its degree of tourist markets, and I mean, 180 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: we need to do everything we can I agree with you, Dennis, 181 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: to discourage that and to encourage those tourists to come 182 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: and have a different kind of line experience in a 183 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: proper wild reserve and see them the way they're meant 184 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: to be seen or not seen by human beings. 185 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: That's my view. 186 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: But Dennis, thanks for for flagging that anonymous asking whether 187 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:37,079 Speaker 1: other countries have successfully dismantled mantled this kind of industry. 188 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: I think they're trying to get a sense of where 189 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: we sort of sit in global terms. 190 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 3: Interestingly enough, four pause also works in Europe with bears, 191 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 3: and in some countries today there was you know, in 192 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 3: sense of breeding of bears for bear bile, and for 193 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 3: for tourism and for entertainment and so forth. And we 194 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 3: together with other organizations also to enter the roadmap that 195 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 3: could see an end to the bear you know, intense 196 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 3: of farming of bears for all these terrible purposes, and 197 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 3: it has succeeded in many countries, so it is possible. 198 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 3: Of course, their numbers, you know, in terms of the 199 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 3: numbers of animals or volume, was smaller, but we have 200 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,319 Speaker 3: to start somewhere, and the government has already committed these 201 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,959 Speaker 3: are Cabinets approved decisions. This new decision now is is 202 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 3: also you know, nationally approved in terms of all provinces recognized, 203 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,839 Speaker 3: and just a few weeks ago and Puma Langa as 204 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 3: an entire province said that they will they will exit 205 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 3: voluntarily exit these as you know, this process and see 206 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 3: to it that there will be no further captive breeding 207 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 3: of lines. They recognize the tourism potential, for ethical tourism, 208 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 3: and I think that's really what where we have to 209 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 3: focus on, because that's where the jobs are. That's what 210 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 3: ourgd perialize on in terms of you know, tourism income 211 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 3: and not necessarily for a very small number of jobs 212 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 3: in comparison, and I don't have all the numbers right now, 213 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 3: but yeah, the discrepancies is very big between the two. 214 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: Fiona Miles, thank you so much. Very interesting update and 215 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: encouraging update. Even though it may be one small step 216 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: on a longer path, it is at least a step 217 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: in the right direction. Thanks for alerting us. Fiona Miles, 218 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: the director of four Pause South Africa giving us that update. 219 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: So that is again where we're at. The NCP, the 220 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: National Council of Provinces approving a draft notice that will 221 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: stop the creation of new facilities being opened for lion breeding. 222 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:38,959 Speaker 1: The next step is that the Minister himself for the 223 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 1: OLCUMP needs to enact that notice and let's hope that 224 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: that comes sooner rather than later.