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Speaker 1: Stephen's on The Money Show six to eight years for

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Speaker 1: developments in New York today around the Venezuelan president Nicholas Maduro.

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Speaker 1: He and his wife are accused by the US on

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Speaker 1: drug smuggling charges. He's due to appear in court. At

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Speaker 1: the same time, the Unsecurity Council having a big conversation

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Speaker 1: around what the US did over the weekend and the

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Speaker 1: Trump administration subduction of Madrauro from his country over the weekend.

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Speaker 1: Professor Lyle White is on the faculty at the Gordon

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Speaker 1: Institute of Business Science. Lyle could even good to talk

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Speaker 1: to you again. I realized there'd been a big American

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Speaker 1: military build up in the region for some time. I

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Speaker 1: have to say I was among those who really didn't

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Speaker 1: see this one coming.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think it called everybody by surprise. And this is

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Speaker 3: one of those those New Year things where maybe if

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Speaker 3: they anywhere between the twenty fourth of December and the

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Speaker 3: first week in January, it might go under the radar.

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Speaker 3: But if you've been watching or following the development in

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Speaker 3: New York today, you can see that the Trump administration

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Speaker 3: is not really hide in any of this. They're making

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Speaker 3: quite a show of things and they really have made

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Speaker 3: Madudo and mister and missus Mduda now a great spectacle

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Speaker 3: in New York. And obviously these charges are quite serious.

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Speaker 3: It's literally narco terrorism, among other things. But we also

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Speaker 3: know that by most measures and international law experts would

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Speaker 3: consider the operation on the third of January a blatant

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Speaker 3: violation of the UN Charter. But there's a lot more

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Speaker 3: to this, Stephen. It's not a cut and dry case,

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Speaker 3: because I'm sure it will come out that most nations

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Speaker 3: around the world have not recognized Nicholas Mududa as the

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Speaker 3: legitimate president of Venezuela.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, this is one of the interesting questions,

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Speaker 1: and in fact the UN Security Council session almost started

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Speaker 1: with that point. I think I forget the name of

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Speaker 1: the person who was speaking, but it was Professor Jeffrey Sachs,

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Speaker 1: I think who said for him, the issue needs to

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Speaker 1: be whether the what the US did was lead. It

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be about the Venezuelan government and those elections. And

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Speaker 1: you can have that argument forever.

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Speaker 3: And we would have that argument forever. I mean, Jeffrey

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Speaker 3: Sachs was just Arterarr in South Africa recently beaten that

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Speaker 3: saying drum in opposition to the Trump administration, but you

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Speaker 3: must remember he has a political drum to beat there

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Speaker 3: because he is in constant opposition to the United States.

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Speaker 3: I'm not saying what the Trump administration carried out was

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Speaker 3: a legitimate act. What I'm saying is that maybe over

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Speaker 3: the last ten to fifteen years, while Maduro was literally

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Speaker 3: gutting the economy in Venezuela, and you and I have

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Speaker 3: spoken about this at length over the last ten years

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Speaker 3: or so, the multilateral institutions around the world that so

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Speaker 3: we're supposedly protected Venezuelan citizens sat by the sidelines. And

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Speaker 3: that is probably why we've seen a divided kind of

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Speaker 3: response to this, especially from the Venezuelan opposition, which have

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Speaker 3: mostly applauded this maybe to some to the spars of many,

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Speaker 3: because they are holding, you know, the bests of democracy

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Speaker 3: at hand. I think Camila Harris put this quite well.

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Speaker 3: She said that Maduro is a brutal or that Maduro

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Speaker 3: is a brutal illegitimate dictator, but that does not change

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Speaker 3: the fact that this was an unlawful and unwise decision

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Speaker 3: that was made, especially without a transitional planning place. And

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Speaker 3: I think that's my biggest concern right now is what

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Speaker 3: is the plan, what is next for Venezuela.

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Speaker 1: So I want to get to that. I just want

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Speaker 1: to go back another step. How important does Maduro to

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Speaker 1: the government in Venezuela. There's sort of current movement which

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Speaker 1: became the current government, been there for a long time,

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Speaker 1: started by Hugo Chavez. It survived his passing. Does it

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Speaker 1: survive Maduro if it does a deal with Trump.

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Speaker 3: Excellent question, because we all know that Maduro came to

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Speaker 3: power in twenty thirteen at the passing and almost unexpected

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Speaker 3: passing of Hugo Shavis and enormously charismatic populously who really

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Speaker 3: carried out this the socialist revolution, the Bolvarian Revolution in Venezuela.

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Speaker 3: Will remember that he actually was one of the last

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Speaker 3: heads of state to have visited South Africa during the

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Speaker 3: time of taboone Beki.

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Speaker 4: He addressed.

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Speaker 3: The out the final meeting with the Tabobeki administration back

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Speaker 3: in those days. Yes, he's passing and with us the

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Speaker 3: charisma went with it. Madudro took over. He was the

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Speaker 3: chosen successor and during that time, just to give the

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Speaker 3: listeners an idea of what transpired in Venezuela, over eight

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Speaker 3: million people roughly a quarter of the population of Venezuela

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Speaker 3: fled the country over the last fifteen to twenty years.

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Speaker 3: Since twenty ten, the Venezuelan economy has gone from around

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Speaker 3: around four hundred billion dollars down to forty billion dollars.

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Speaker 3: It's ten percent of what it was. Can you imagine

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Speaker 3: if that happened in any other country around the world,

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Speaker 3: there would be social unrest in which they've had. Nicholas

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Speaker 3: Maduro's record or human rights record and record of democracy

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Speaker 3: is one that is has been has been investigated by

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Speaker 3: the United Nations and other bodies and other multilateral institutions

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Speaker 3: around the world, and still by many many nations, not

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Speaker 3: only in the Western hemisphere, including obviously in the United

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Speaker 3: States and many Latin American countries, but most of the

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Speaker 3: European Union. And that was very very interesting with this

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Speaker 3: was the response from the European Union and European countries.

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Speaker 3: They do not recognize Nicholas Maduda as the legitimate president

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Speaker 3: because of his response to the July twenty twenty four

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Speaker 3: elections in that country, where by all counts at Mundol

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Speaker 3: Gonzalez won that election by sixty seven percent to Madudro's

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Speaker 3: thirty percent and that's even excluding the eight million people

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Speaker 3: that had left Venezuela. So that's a bit of the

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Speaker 3: background and context to Venezuela.

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Speaker 1: So Trump claims the US will run Venezuela. It's quite

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Speaker 1: a big countries, millions of people. I mean, yes, eight

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Speaker 1: million of them have left. It has its own internal dynamics.

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Speaker 1: You're the expert, not me. But I understand those sort

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Speaker 1: of armed gangs that seem to play a significant role,

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Speaker 1: and I imagine control bits of territory. I just I mean,

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Speaker 1: you would have to put millions of boots on the

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Speaker 1: ground for another country to run it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And that statement, I think they've they've kind of

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Speaker 3: withdrawn or pulled that back a little. I saw Marco

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Speaker 3: Rubio made an alternative statement. By making that statement, he

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Speaker 3: changed the whole orientation to the extraction of Nicholas Madudo.

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Speaker 3: And this was then as soon as he said we

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Speaker 3: were going to be running Venezuela, there was regime change,

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Speaker 3: which harks back to you know, previous exploits in Latin

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Speaker 3: America and especially in Central America, and even eighty nine

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Speaker 3: when they withdrew Loriega out of Panama. But this is

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Speaker 3: a little bit far fetched. We can't expect the United

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Speaker 3: States have boots on the ground and reinvent the whole

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Speaker 3: Iraqi scenario once again. We saw how that turned out.

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Speaker 3: But it's going to be a very very interesting one

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Speaker 3: because Donald Trump did not outright support Maria Muschado, who

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Speaker 3: by the way, was the opposition leader and the winner

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Speaker 3: of the Nobel Peace Prize at the end of twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty five. And he has not supported at Mundo Gonzalez,

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Speaker 3: and he hasn't supported the vice president at this stage.

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Speaker 3: So we don't have any transisional or democratic transition in place.

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Speaker 3: And this is what the greatest concern is because obviously,

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Speaker 3: as you mentioned, this is over twenty seven million people,

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Speaker 3: a reasonably fized the economy in South America and Latin American,

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Speaker 3: that Andean region, and it could become a serious security

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Speaker 3: situation for the great region. Hence the response from the

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Speaker 3: Colombians and the Brazilians.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, Maduro's deputy. She might actually have

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Speaker 1: been sworn in now that I talked to you, as

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Speaker 1: President else Rodriguez, and I don't know if I'm pronouncing

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Speaker 1: that correctly. What kind of position is she in? I

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Speaker 1: know she was also the I think the oil minister.

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Speaker 1: But some people, I am sure, are going to say

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Speaker 1: she helped the Americans, and I presume somebody did.

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Speaker 4: Well.

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Speaker 3: There certainly were people embedded because they were able to

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Speaker 3: penetrate which I suppose the impenetrable residents and on a

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Speaker 3: military base in Caracas. Not an easy task, Stephen, and

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Speaker 3: not even the CIA and the Delta Force, as they said,

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Speaker 3: could do this. But so CIA, the CIA was embedded.

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Speaker 3: They do believe they have local support. I'm not sure

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Speaker 3: whether President or now President Rodriguez was one of those.

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Speaker 3: She has been vehemently in support of Maduro and the

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Speaker 3: return of Maduro, but many will question now how she

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Speaker 3: actually how.

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Speaker 5: She's risen up.

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Speaker 3: She was, as you mentioned, she was overseeing the oil

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Speaker 3: sector in Venezuela, which has now become you know, Venezuela

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Speaker 3: does have the largest known oil deposits in the world,

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Speaker 3: which is part of this whole strategic discussion that dold

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Speaker 3: Trump has been speaking about. But that wasn't really a

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Speaker 3: massive role that she had, and obviously being the vice

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Speaker 3: president to a dictator like Nicholas Madudo doesn't really put

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Speaker 3: her in the spotlight as often as one would expect,

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Speaker 3: so she didn't wield as much power and certainly not

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Speaker 3: the charisma of Madula's predecessor, Charves.

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Speaker 1: Professor LAO White, thanks very much. Indeed, faculty at the

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Speaker 1: Gordon Institute of Business Science really appreciate that Peter Armitage

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Speaker 1: is the CEO of Anchor Capital, Peter Good evening, world

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Speaker 1: markets pretty much taking the abduction of Maduro in their stride.

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Speaker 1: The oil price, I suppose roughly where it was before

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Speaker 1: all of this happened over the weekend.

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Speaker 6: So I think Stephen Venezuela is kind of known as

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Speaker 6: a big oil supply but because of the actions and

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Speaker 6: what's happened of the course of the last five or

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Speaker 6: ten years, they've gone down to about less than a

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Speaker 6: million barrels a day. So that's in the context of

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Speaker 6: just over a hundred million barrels a day in the world,

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Speaker 6: so it's less and one percent of supply, so it's

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Speaker 6: not you know, they'll probably still carry on supplying oil.

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Speaker 6: So the actual impact in terms of the supply of

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Speaker 6: oil is geopolitically noisy, but economically not that relevant.

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Speaker 1: I guess this leads to other questions because, I mean,

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Speaker 1: our fuel price is coming down this week partly because

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Speaker 1: of a stronger rand partly because of weaker oil prices.

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Speaker 1: There was a meeting of the OPEK plus nations I

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Speaker 1: think yesterday or over the weekend. They seem to suggest

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Speaker 1: they'll keep production roughly where it is because everybody's chasing

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Speaker 1: market share.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so the problem is even you know, the oil

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Speaker 6: price has gradually come down from about eighty dollars to

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Speaker 6: about sixty dollars today over the last twelve months, and

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Speaker 6: when when there isn't really any supply or any big

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Speaker 6: buyer to pick up the slack, it tends to gradually

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Speaker 6: come down because even if OPIK does cut, you know,

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Speaker 6: guars need to carry on supplying to make their cash flows.

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Speaker 6: So it's always Opic is about thirty five half percent

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Speaker 6: of world supply. This is something to bear in mind.

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Speaker 6: So there's the other sixty five percent can move quite

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Speaker 6: a bit, and US shale just continues to increase. So

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Speaker 6: you've got this kind of supply demand balance where there's

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Speaker 6: a little bit more supply than demand, and that general

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Speaker 6: results in prices coming off and it's difficult for them

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Speaker 6: to cut to try and increase the price because a

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Speaker 6: it won't necessarily increase the price, and B countries don't

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Speaker 6: particularly want it sold less because they need the cash

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Speaker 6: flows to pay for their own affairs in their own countries.

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Speaker 1: Is it possible to know how long this will go

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Speaker 1: on for barring any major shocks. I mean, I've seen

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Speaker 1: some suggestions. Certain fact, it could be like this. We

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Speaker 1: could be in a kind of what do I call it,

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Speaker 1: a be nine oil price environment for quite a lengthy

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Speaker 1: period five years.

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Speaker 6: Even yeah, I mean, you know, the key thing is

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Speaker 6: economic growth and oil intensity from around the world, and

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Speaker 6: the biggest driver if you go back a few years ago,

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Speaker 6: was China. So their industrial production was resulting in you know,

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Speaker 6: quite strong growth every year in terms of oil demand.

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Speaker 6: But China has been the biggest player in terms of

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Speaker 6: ev adoption, so their motor vehicles on the whole motor

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Speaker 6: vehicle fleet is using less oil. Cars have become more efficient,

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Speaker 6: there's lots more hybrids, and the economic consumption per kind

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Speaker 6: of units of GDP, the oil consumption has come off

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Speaker 6: of it because there's other energy sources solar and wind

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Speaker 6: and the like. So it's hard to see global global

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Speaker 6: demand for oil being much higher in a few years

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Speaker 6: time and global supply likewise. Venezuela ironically, this could land

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Speaker 6: up with Venezuela producing quite a lot more in a

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Speaker 6: few years time if Trump has his way.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is kind of where I'm heading. So okay,

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Speaker 1: that happens. Got the world's largest reserves of oil, we understand.

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Speaker 1: But Trump says the US will take over Venezuela as

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Speaker 1: oil reserves essentially, but that will make venezuel rich. But

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Speaker 1: it won't do that if suddenly you've got a lot

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Speaker 1: more oil on the market just as demand is going

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Speaker 1: down anyway, and I'm young enough to remember being told

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Speaker 1: that we'll have peak oil and then we'll all have

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Speaker 1: to walk everywhere.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, So I think Venezuela in terms of potential, if

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Speaker 6: you look back, it was producing about.

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Speaker 2: Four to five million barrels.

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Speaker 6: A day and it's now producing one, so that you know,

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Speaker 6: that's that was in the nineties, so let's go. You know,

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Speaker 6: it can probably get back to three or four so

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Speaker 6: that adds another two or three percent two world supply,

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Speaker 6: but that will take a number of years to happen.

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Speaker 6: So yeah, I mean oil. I think most people are

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Speaker 6: kind of in their four cost pages are looking at

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Speaker 6: a fairly benigna oil price for some time. But at

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Speaker 6: sixty dollars. People still make a lot of money, you know,

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Speaker 6: so that's why there's an equilibrium in the price. I

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Speaker 6: think it costs society Arabians about five dollars a barrel

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Speaker 6: the shale guards is a huge difference between the low

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Speaker 6: cost producers and the hard cost producers. But clearly a

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Speaker 6: sixty dollars is enough of an incentive for people to

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Speaker 6: continue putting capic and an expenditure into it.

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Speaker 1: Peter Armitich, thank you very much. Indeed, the CEO of

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Speaker 1: Anchor Capital.

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Speaker 2: The money show the market.

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Speaker 1: Arthur Karras's portfolio manager at Old Mutual Investment, Arthur, good

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Speaker 1: evening to you. Not a lot of local news, but

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Speaker 1: quite a few developments, and particularly platinum starting off with

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Speaker 1: a very strong start of the year.

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Speaker 7: Yes, we had a strong warning for precious metals as

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Speaker 7: a whole. I think that the platinum companies rebounded somewhat

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Speaker 7: after the slip late last year. I think that could

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Speaker 7: just be a people real looking at the overall situation

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Speaker 7: for the sale of petrol cars and saying it's not

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Speaker 7: going to be as bad as what we think, and

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Speaker 7: we're going to need more platinum and palladium than what

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Speaker 7: we thought.

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Speaker 1: Gold also, I mean gold search quite strongly. This morning

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Speaker 1: Royce has put out a report on it. I did

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Speaker 1: think actually considering what happened with Venezuela over the weekend,

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Speaker 1: you'd sort of expect that.

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Speaker 7: Gold hadn't been a great due a political hedge over

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Speaker 7: the last couple of cycles. The probably the primary driver

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Speaker 7: for the gold price in the last while there has

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Speaker 7: been a lot to do with the US dollar and

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Speaker 7: giving people an alternative to keeping your kind of safe

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Speaker 7: haven money in something other than US treasures and the

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Speaker 7: US dollars. I think that will probably continue for the

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Speaker 7: year ahead. We're not really expecting the dollar to be

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Speaker 7: a strong currency in twenty twenty six, and that should

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Speaker 7: underpin the gold price.

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Speaker 1: I mean, one presumes, then some of the predictions about

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Speaker 1: gold last year five thousand dollars by the end of

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Speaker 1: this year we're nearly at four thousand, five hundred. It

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Speaker 1: would make sense that that continues.

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Speaker 7: Absolutely, and it's a very very difficult thing to get right.

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Speaker 7: It's not something where you can easily kind of work

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Speaker 7: out a price at which, like a share, workout what

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Speaker 7: it's worth or calculated price, like with about the oil price.

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Speaker 7: You've got strong demand supply numbers that you can used

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Speaker 7: to figure out a range for that we've called it's

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Speaker 7: a lot trickier. So the more dollar gets weaker, the

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Speaker 7: more that people feel they want that hedge, the longer

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Speaker 7: it's likely to run.

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Speaker 1: And then I mean, the rand looking so strong at

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Speaker 1: the moment, I mean, as I remember signing off last year,

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Speaker 1: I think it would be very nice if we stayed

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Speaker 1: below seventeen dollars seventeen rand to the dollar. Here we

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Speaker 1: are much of the day around sixteen forty five.

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Speaker 7: Not really a surprise if you look at some of

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Speaker 7: the other indicators of the health of the South African

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Speaker 7: economy South Africa overall, you know, the bond market's been

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Speaker 7: extremely strong over the last two years. It's gone from

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Speaker 7: twelve and a half percent to now eight point four percent,

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Speaker 7: telling you that sophisticated investors are very comfortable with what's

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Speaker 7: happening here. And the rand is, you know, after a

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Speaker 7: regular amount kind of setbacks as things have happened between

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Speaker 7: South Africa and the US. As an example, last year,

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Speaker 7: people are saying, well, you know, the bond prices or

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Speaker 7: the bond yielder is down. We've got a new inflation target,

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Speaker 7: which gives us some confidence certization is going to continue

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Speaker 7: to stay under control. We've got a improving fiscal trajectory,

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Speaker 7: so our debt situation is not getting worse, it's stabilizing.

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Speaker 7: There's the potential for it to get better. All of

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Speaker 7: those things are helping support the rand. So not a

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Speaker 7: huge surprise, even though it's it's sometimes difficult to predict.

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Speaker 7: Hard players out.

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Speaker 1: A lot of optimism towards the end of last year

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Speaker 1: for South Africa, and I'm seeing more signs of that now,

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Speaker 1: even still people have maintained their optimism over the holiday.

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Speaker 7: Well, it comes back to some of the things that

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Speaker 7: we've been discussing already. So the stronger rand, stronger dollar

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Speaker 7: tends to be very good for our banking shares, and

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Speaker 7: some of them have had a reasonable year last year.

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Speaker 7: But in twenty two five, the economy or the stock

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Speaker 7: market was all about all about the precious metal miners

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Speaker 7: and one or two other shares. It wasn't really much

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Speaker 7: actionly on the local side. So that still leads us

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Speaker 7: with relatively cheap banks, retailers, all of our will benefit

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Speaker 7: from lower inflation translating into lower interest rate. Lower interest

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Speaker 7: rates in South Africa we're still see the benefit of

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Speaker 7: lower of less load shedding coming through. That's a good

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Speaker 7: thing for sentiment. It looks like transmitters starting to improve

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Speaker 7: if we look at talk from the companies that use

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Speaker 7: those services. So all of those things helping to improve

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Speaker 7: sentiment and reminding us that our stocks are cheap, and

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Speaker 7: emerging markets are doing relatively well right now, and we're

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Speaker 7: we've put squarely into that back at a really injestible

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Speaker 7: emerging market.

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Speaker 1: We're far away from South America. Arthur Caras, thanks very much, indeed,

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Speaker 1: portfolio manager at Old Mutual Investments.

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Speaker 4: Stephens x at Stephen.

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Speaker 1: A series of comments from air traffic navigation services through

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Speaker 1: the day saying the main reason flights were delayed at

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Speaker 1: our Tumbo yesterday afternoon was air traffic controllers were ill

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Speaker 1: or unable to come into work. The problems led to

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Speaker 1: delays for dozens of flights. Airlines themselves, of course, end

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Speaker 1: up carrying a lot of the financial can for that.

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Speaker 1: London Burns is the managing director of Plane Talking London

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Speaker 1: Good Evening at and says has happened because some of

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Speaker 1: their workers were sick. Do you think it's as simple as.

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Speaker 5: That, Yeah, Stephen high and compliments the season two. Everyone listening. Look,

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Speaker 5: we've known for a long time that they've got a

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Speaker 5: major capacity shortage at atns. They've really been struggling to

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Speaker 5: make sure or try and do their best to ensure

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Speaker 5: that there are enough controllers in place to make sure

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Speaker 5: that flights can operate safely. But that has meant that

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Speaker 5: we've seen delays, we've seen the throttling of traffic if

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Speaker 5: you like, bigger intervals between departures out of airports like

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Speaker 5: our Tambo as a result, and the wheels fell off

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Speaker 5: spectacularly yesterday because of that, and when they had a

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Speaker 5: staff who or they just had empty staffing positions. We're

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Speaker 5: not quite sure what the reasons were, whether it was

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Speaker 5: people calling in sick or whatever. That's what Aightens is saying.

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Speaker 5: And you know, by sort of nine thirty yesterday we

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Speaker 5: started seeing the first delays of around about half an hour.

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Speaker 5: By twelve thirty they were up to two to three hours,

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Speaker 5: and by mid afternoon there were three hours plus. And

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Speaker 5: I just counted now there were over two hundred and

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Speaker 5: forty flights that were delayed leaving of our Tambo yesterday,

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Speaker 5: And of course that's meant that you know, by the

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Speaker 5: end of the day, when crews finished their working day

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Speaker 5: or couldn't fly any longer because they'd run out of

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Speaker 5: flight beauty time, we ended up with a number of

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Speaker 5: aircraft and crews out of position for this morning flight.

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Speaker 5: So then we had more delays earlier today that had

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Speaker 5: to be worked through, and I think it's going to

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Speaker 5: take a couple of more days for this to finally

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Speaker 5: all be resolved. And we know that in addition to that,

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Speaker 5: there was a thunderstorm yesterday yesterday afternoon, but these delays

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Speaker 5: and the throttling of traffic at our tambo started nearly

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Speaker 5: three and a half four hours before that, and they

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Speaker 5: at ANDS notified all the airlines yesterday morning saying we're

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Speaker 5: doing this because of the traffic, and we do. We've

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Speaker 5: seen the weather forecast of thunderstorms. Even if the thunderstorm

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Speaker 5: doesn't materialize, we're still going to continue with the traffic

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Speaker 5: constraints around Jannasburg.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, this isn't in a way a classic

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Speaker 1: worst case scenario massive travel day. Yes, there are lots

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Speaker 1: of people trying to come back, especially into Johannesburg. I

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Speaker 1: would imagine perhaps one of the contributing causes was they

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Speaker 1: hadn't wanted delays earlier in the festive season, and so

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Speaker 1: they made sure everybody was ready for that, and this

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Speaker 1: was the sort of final big day and in the

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Speaker 1: end you just run out of people. It all builds

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Speaker 1: on itself.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it does. And we don't know, we haven't obviously

402
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Speaker 5: got visibility of how they manage their staffing roster.

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Speaker 6: You know.

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Speaker 5: The bottom line is they should never allow for there

405
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Speaker 5: to be a capacity gap like that, shouldn't. We should

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Speaker 5: never reach this sort of situation. And you know, I

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Speaker 5: spoke to one airline today, Airlink. You got some of

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Speaker 5: their numbers. You know, they had initially in the morning,

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Speaker 5: thirty one flights delayed out of our Tambo. But the

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Speaker 5: knock on effect that that triggered, you know, meant another

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Speaker 5: sixty nine flights delayed throughout the rest of the day

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Speaker 5: and the average delay was about seventy five minutes. And

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Speaker 5: then on top of that, they had five aircraft that

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Speaker 5: had to divert because of that thunderstorm. Five went sorry,

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Speaker 5: four of them went to Faberon and one went to Durban.

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Speaker 5: But I'm aware a number of other airlines had some

417
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Speaker 5: of the problems. You know, some of the impact. Roughly

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Speaker 5: half of their flights affected yesterday.

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Speaker 1: Eight and s I mean in the headlines a lot

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Speaker 1: last year, United several conversations about it, says it's making

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Speaker 1: progress and fixing itself. It's you know, it's upfront about

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Speaker 1: the fact it needs more people. Do you see any progress?

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Speaker 1: I mean, do you see it moving in the right

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Speaker 1: direction at least?

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Speaker 5: I think, you know, the management of trying very hard.

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Speaker 5: But you know, even as of today, and I heard

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Speaker 5: this morning, there's you know that there are offers being

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Speaker 5: made to people who are currently employed at eight ands

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Speaker 5: to you know, but buy air navigation service providers and

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Speaker 5: other parts of the world. There's a global shortage of

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Speaker 5: those skills and experienced people are being offered top dollar

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Speaker 5: to move. So, you know, I anticipate we're going to

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Speaker 5: probably see some more people leaving before we get more

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Speaker 5: people joining. And then on top of that, you know,

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Speaker 5: we spoke last year about their suspension of all these

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Speaker 5: instrument flight procedures, and although they've made some progress in

437
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Speaker 5: reinstating the ones that they're suspended in July twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 5: in the last three months they've suspended many more because

439
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 5: they didn't get to revalidate them before they expired, the

440
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 5: most recent ones even on the ninth of December for

441
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 5: Johannesberg and for Kitan.

442
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,919
Speaker 1: So what does it need now? Obviously in the end,

443
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: these things always boil down to the same thing. This

444
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 1: is clearly an entity that would need more money for

445
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 1: a start.

446
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, it needs more money. I think, you know, I

447
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,399
Speaker 5: think the Minister and her advisory team maybe need to

448
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 5: cast the net a little wider in terms of speaking

449
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,880
Speaker 5: to people about where are the problems, what's you know,

450
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 5: what's really going on For now, they've been quite confined

451
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 5: to listening to what AT and S tells them, but

452
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 5: maybe they should be also listening and hearing suggestions from

453
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 5: outside that I think we've also gotten. I've got to

454
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 5: you know, this is not AT and S's problem, but

455
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 5: the South African Civil Aviation Authority ultimately has to approve

456
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,439
Speaker 5: everything and every one. All the air traffic controllers have

457
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 5: to be licensed by the South African Civil Aviation Authority.

458
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,360
Speaker 5: And from what I'm hearing, they're running into some road

459
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 5: AT and S are running into some roadblocks with people

460
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 5: they'd like to hire to become airspace designers and procedure

461
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 5: designers because their qualifications or current licenses are not recognized

462
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 5: by the South Africa and so the CIA is asking

463
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 5: them to jump through some more hoops of fire.

464
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 1: Sure, thank you very much. Indeed, Lindon Burns, Managing director

465
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 1: of Plane Talking, you do get a sense in a

466
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 1: way just listening to that that things at at ands

467
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 1: are still creaking about, that they have not been able

468
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: to do everything they need to be and clearly there

469
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 1: is a lot more work to be done. I was

470
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,640
Speaker 1: lucky enough not to be stuck in all of that yesterday.

471
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: I'm sure some people are traveling lean home on the

472
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 1: roads have some stories to tell as well about you

473
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 1: know how positive or negative that might well have been.

474
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 1: But also we really should not have another year of

475
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 1: air traffic navigation services story. Well, with just hours to

476
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: go until the end of twenty twenty five, there was

477
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: an announcement from Canoe Plus that twelve channels owned by

478
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,919
Speaker 1: Warner Brothers Discovery, including CNN and Cartoon Network, would remain

479
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 1: on Deer TV. There'd been a warning to subscribers that

480
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: the channels would be removed because Warner Brothers and Canelplus

481
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 1: could not reach an agreement. Tinis Ferrera's experts on the

482
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: TV industry and a critic Tinis Good Evening. I remember

483
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 1: speaking to you at the end of last year and

484
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: you said it would probably come down to the last

485
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: minute and in the end they would probably be reach

486
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,479
Speaker 1: an agreement. That's exactly what happened. What do you think

487
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:25,640
Speaker 1: drove them there in the end?

488
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 8: In the run up, I asked both sides multiple times

489
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 8: if this Multi Choice and Warner Warner Bross Discovery negotiating

490
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 8: or is it Canal Plus. Turns out it was Canal Plus.

491
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 8: Turns out that it wasn't really about Africa, it was

492
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 8: more about Europe. Canal Plus sort of superseded and took

493
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 8: over from Multi Choice and because they wanted to negotiate

494
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 8: a better deal or expansion of the streaming service HBO Max,

495
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 8: as well as the same sort of continuation new carriage

496
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,120
Speaker 8: deals for their channels across Europe and also into new

497
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 8: territories new countries like Belgium and Austria. They sort of

498
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,479
Speaker 8: lumped the Africa meaning South Africa part of the rights

499
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 8: deal into the broader European deal as a subset, so

500
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 8: they kind of played a little bit hardball in that way.

501
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 8: It wasn't just sort of the Africa deals that they

502
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 8: were looking at renegotiating. It was actually sort of a

503
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 8: bigger part of their business in Europe as well, where

504
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,959
Speaker 8: Canal Plus is obviously based as a fringe company.

505
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 1: So I mean this was in the end around the

506
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: fact that d STV's new owners have scale, and that

507
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 1: scale really works if you're dealing with the company, even

508
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: one the size of Warner Brothers.

509
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,360
Speaker 8: Yes, and I actually have another shock that I can

510
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 8: tell you now. I haven't even reported about it dead,

511
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 8: but breaking news is that this does not include the

512
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 8: continuation of HBO and Warner Brothers content like the films

513
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 8: and tvsh shows for Showmacs, So that content is starting

514
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 8: to disappear from Showmax, which I think is very bad

515
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,360
Speaker 8: for Multi Choice and Canal Plus since they've bought literally

516
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 8: billions with the Bee into starting that or relaunching that

517
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 8: streaming service. And what Warner has told me is that

518
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 8: they are still negotiating now worth Canal Plus for a

519
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 8: separate agreement for Showmacs. I've asked them told what the

520
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 8: dadline is for the two sites for this, and I

521
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 8: didn't get an answer yet. And literally what I was

522
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 8: told by Warner was that unless a new agreement is reached,

523
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 8: and I quote they say, popular series such as Friends,

524
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 8: Game of Thrones, the Last of Ours, along with blockbuster

525
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 8: films like Superman and Barbie, will continue to be unavailable

526
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 8: on multi choice platforms. And I heard this afternoon from

527
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 8: several showmacs subscribers who were like, oh, after Christmas, I

528
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 8: wanted to continue watching the show. This just disappeared. That

529
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 8: just disappeared. Shows that are gone or like Deep the Wire,

530
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 8: Game of Thrones and Secure Successions, Sopranos, left overs, some

531
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 8: of the newer types that's also on m A Penguin

532
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 8: It Deiry. They are still available and I will check

533
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 8: whether they disappear. So it's almost like one of those

534
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,479
Speaker 8: Maguia episodes where you sort of diffuse the bomb and

535
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 8: the red digit stop and then suddenly they continue to

536
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 8: count down again, so we're once again in a countdown.

537
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: I love the way you put that. I presume for

538
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: Warner Brothers, they know the value of that particular content,

539
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: quality content. They're the only ones worth it as they

540
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: made it. Then as a result of that, they're really

541
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: even against Connel Plus have quite quite a lot of leverage.

542
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 8: For something like show Listen to this sentence also that

543
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 8: they sent me literally just a few hours ago in

544
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 8: parallel and I quote again Warner Bross Discovery is exploring

545
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 8: alternative avenues to ensure consumers have future access to our

546
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 8: world class content from a being Warner brass Roose. Alternatives

547
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 8: to DStv, we have none, There's only streamers. So are

548
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 8: they talking to maybe with Netflix in Africa or South

549
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 8: Africa to put some of the HBO shows on there

550
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 8: in the way that we've been able to see the

551
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 8: Harry potterforms on Netflix. It's something that a'll track this week.

552
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: Sure, that is that is interesting, Tina's I mean, I

553
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: get a sense that this is a big year for

554
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: the DStv platform run as it is now owners it

555
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: is now by Canolplus. It's been under intense pressure for

556
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 1: a long time, no real changes. I would imagine if

557
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: I were the person in charge for Canolplus that I

558
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: would be looking at making quite a lot of changes

559
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: and suddenly having to do that without some of the

560
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: content it might have been relying upon.

561
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 8: Who knows whether they're going to keep show max alive

562
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 8: or whether they're going to discover a big, gaping black

563
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 8: hole that they sort of decide they rather going to

564
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 8: walk away with. Today is also quite coincidentally the first

565
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 8: few anniversary of the start of South African television, and

566
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 8: then later in the year will be the fortieth anniversary

567
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 8: of EMMET. It will be we'll have to see whether

568
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,719
Speaker 8: EMMET even still exists without HBO content or things like

569
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 8: that on it. And a source told me over the

570
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 8: weekend that the French owners are actually quite eager to impress,

571
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 8: and I didn't say anything back, but I just thought, well,

572
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 8: what so far they haven't really impressed or made like

573
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 8: a post of impression.

574
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,719
Speaker 1: So there are options. Now you could get a lot cheaper.

575
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: That may be something they have to do, maybe become

576
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,479
Speaker 1: a sort of streaming service that competes a little bit

577
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: on price they are more expensive than others. Or they're

578
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: going to have to do something extraordinary with the live

579
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: sport when particularly, I suppose in our terms, the rugby

580
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: season gets.

581
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 8: Going, I so agree with you, they will have to

582
00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 8: do some fundamental sort of house cleaning or reorganized or restructuring,

583
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 8: because all of like the trinkets and balves and whistles,

584
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 8: they will say, oh, we're opening channels for free, for

585
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 8: a premium subscribe, or for lower tiered subscribers who can

586
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 8: watch the same as premium subscribers, or they will do

587
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 8: this or that. I mean, none of that really fundamentally

588
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 8: changes the value option of how DStv currently looks and structures.

589
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 8: It's really going to shape up to be a very

590
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 8: interesting year to see whether they are maybe going to

591
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 8: spin off all of the sport content as a separate

592
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 8: package or really do big things like that to try

593
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 8: and sort of stop the hammering of subscribers and to

594
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 8: sort of re endear themselves to subscribers who've already cut

595
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 8: the cord and gone away.

596
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: And I mean in the same time in the States,

597
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: because of the paramount issue and Netflix, I mean, the

598
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: whole industry could actually be turned on its head a

599
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 1: little bit. This could suddenly be a very consequential year

600
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: for streaming.

601
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 8: I thought twenty twenty five or so tumultuous and just

602
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 8: sort of like, look at how this year's already shaping up.

603
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 8: I cannot even imagine. Over the weekend, I thought, oh,

604
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 8: I have to do sort of like a trained story

605
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 8: for what's happening and coming for South African television for

606
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 8: the year. And I actually thought, whatever I come up

607
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 8: with I'm probably going to be surprised come December.

608
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: And then obviously, tiness I mean, so many other things

609
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: are going to be going on at this point in

610
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: the end, the story actually has become as interesting in

611
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: the streaming industry are some of the stuff they've been showing.

612
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 8: They are consolidating, they are continuing sort of this one

613
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 8: upmanship of more and more content, which is not churning

614
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 8: out more and more shows and big budgets on content spent,

615
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 8: which is obviously unsustainable. We're going to see we will

616
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 8: have to see more of these mergers between the streamers.

617
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 8: We're going to see what's going to happen whether Paramount

618
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 8: or Netflix gobbles up HBO, what happens to HBO Max,

619
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 8: which is a streamer we don't get in South Africa yet.

620
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 8: So I think it's going to be very stormy weather

621
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 8: for the year.

622
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: For TV and Fulm deiness Er, thank you so much.

623
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: Expert on the TV industries you can hear, and a

624
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 1: TV critic as well. The Money Show with Well, you've

625
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,919
Speaker 1: heard about the big fuel price decrease, You've heard about

626
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 1: the increase in platinum and gold prices. You've heard the

627
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: bullish outlook for the year. If that wasn't enough good

628
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: news for you, well, then a report on moneyweb today

629
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: pointing out that ESKIM has excess generation capacity. Basically, it

630
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: switched off over thirteen thousand megawatts of electricity generation capacity

631
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: because it has too much. Also, I must just point

632
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: out because of the holiday season, Jusso Maleisha is an

633
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 1: energy experts say good evening and thanks so much for

634
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 1: your time. There was a time when I sort of

635
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: used to dread the holiday season. That meant Esquim would

636
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: do intense maintenance. We would have big, endless debates will

637
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 1: there be enough electricity for Christmas dinner? Now suddenly we

638
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: see how things have really changed.

639
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 9: Things have really changed, and they've changed for their positives,

640
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 9: and so we are seeing now excess capacity that's available,

641
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 9: particularly during the holiday season when the demand is relatively low,

642
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 9: with factories and industries closed at that time.

643
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: How much of this is about the drop and demand

644
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: and how much of it is about people getting the

645
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: electricity from somewhere else. I suppose what I'm really asking

646
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: is how much of it is seasonal? I mean, I'm

647
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 1: sure anyone driving through some of the rural areas as

648
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: I was during a holiday period I mean you see

649
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: solar panels in so many places.

650
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 9: Now it's largely I mean there is a contribution of

651
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 9: different sources that are coming in that no one can

652
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 9: run away from that. But during the summer period, so

653
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 9: the summer period, you have a lot of excess capacity,

654
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 9: especially during the holidays. This is mainly because if I

655
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 9: mentioned earlier on, a lot of the factories are closed,

656
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 9: so the demand is relatively low and so there's that

657
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 9: capacity available. So what s COM has been saying with

658
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 9: some of the excess capacities that they this is the

659
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 9: reason why the minister says there's a need to improve

660
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 9: performance on the distribution side so that some of these

661
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 9: electricity that's available can go to the distribution side. And

662
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 9: I mean that by that load reduction that is happening,

663
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 9: So that's part of that. Yes, there is of course

664
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 9: people who are putting in their own systems, but remember

665
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 9: that some of the people that are putting in solar

666
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 9: panels when there's no availability, they still pack up through

667
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:46,439
Speaker 9: es COM.

668
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: So if you look at where ESKIM is now, and

669
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 1: I mean I remember we used to get usually during

670
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: the winter period, we'll be told what the annual peak

671
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: production was the highest number or the highest amount of

672
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: electricity escape it produced in that Yeah, do you expect

673
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: that that figure is never going to go up that

674
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: Eskim's actual annual peak production. I hope I've got the

675
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: term correct. Well, decline a little bit. There's a lot

676
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 1: more electricity being produced by independent power producers, by wind

677
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 1: farms I drove through over the weekend, by various other places.

678
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: I mean, just Eskum itself is going to generate will

679
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: probably never generate as much electricity as it did.

680
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 9: It determined what happens on the demand side. If there

681
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 9: are industries that are cropping up, then they will still

682
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 9: be demand for the electricity. But if the industries shutting.

683
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 8: Down, as you know some are.

684
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 9: Then there will be excess capacity. But remember then in

685
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 9: winter acking we in summer typically also tend to do

686
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 9: a lot more maintenance to take advantage of the fact

687
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 9: that there's less demand, and then in winter there's relatively

688
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 9: more demand, so they also play with that. So those

689
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 9: are the three elements are coming to play.

690
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 1: You made the point, and this important point that Eskum

691
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: has to keep some based load capacity. It has to

692
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: be able to turn on the co fired power stations

693
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: in case there's you know, bad weather stops the production

694
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: of solar electricity, cloud de rain or whatever it is.

695
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 2: With more and more.

696
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 1: Electricity coming from solar, is it going to be more

697
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: important for Eskum's weather predictions to be accurate. You can't

698
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: just switch on those co fire power stations at the

699
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 1: flick of a switch. That take about eighteen hours if

700
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 1: I remember correctly to warm up. To put it another way,

701
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: could we have the next time we have load shedding,

702
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: it won't be because ESKIM doesn't have enough electricity. It'll

703
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,399
Speaker 1: because it might be because someone got the weather wrong.

704
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 9: No, the system operator is actually well and renowned, especially

705
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,280
Speaker 9: the South Afriquan South Africa one for managing the system

706
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,320
Speaker 9: up to a second in terms of their demand supply.

707
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 9: So when there's excess demand that it cannot be they

708
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 9: have to switch off and when there's the additional supply

709
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 9: required then they have to put back on the call.

710
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 9: Fired prop plants generally generate for twenty four to seven

711
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 9: unless there's too much capacity then they have to be

712
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 9: put down, but they generally generate and when there's excess

713
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,240
Speaker 9: demand then they use the peakers to meet that demand.

714
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 9: So it depends on there. But the system operator literally

715
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 9: minute by minute monitors what happens, and they're on point

716
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 9: on that.

717
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: I mean, it is still amazing to me how quickly

718
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: electricity is turned around, and it does make you wonder

719
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: if this could have happened a lot earlier with the

720
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: right management. The only sort of frustrating aspect of it, I.

721
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 9: Mean, most of us had been saying that, but no

722
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 9: one cared to listen that the system does have enough capacity.

723
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 9: The problem was that the maintenance of the plants, the

724
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 9: running of the system in general, and just generally within

725
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 9: es come some of the issues that related to financing.

726
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 9: So Caapman came to the party at some point helping

727
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 9: ESCOM with the debt. They did not do that for

728
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,280
Speaker 9: a very long time. At some point they have seven

729
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 9: members that way and not they can't port suits and

730
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 9: so all of those different things, finally with a will

731
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 9: power from a political point of view to resolved them,

732
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 9: have been resolved. But they could have been resolved earlier in.

733
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 2: My view of course.

734
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 1: Thanks so much. Good to talk to you. Maleish is

735
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: an energy expert. So much to think about with electricity,

736
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 1: and so much positive news coming out of it, as well.

737
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 8: The money show business books.

738
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: One of the most enjoyable things I was able to

739
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: do over the holiday period was to spend quite a

740
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: bit of time immersed in books. I use an e

741
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 1: book reader that still I went through several books. One book,

742
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: The War That Ended Piece The Road to nineteen fourteen

743
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 1: by Margaret McMillin reminded me of something that I found

744
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 1: a little bit disturbing that before the start of the

745
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: First World War, Germany and the UN we're each other's

746
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 1: biggest trading partners. Does it remind you of who the

747
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 1: world's too biggest trading partners are right now? Of course,

748
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 1: the US and China. I found that a little bit disturbing.

749
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 1: Someone else, who I suspect spent his festive season immersed

750
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:17,359
Speaker 1: in books and he decided to take a deeper look

751
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: into the world of journalism, was Peter Detroy. He's the

752
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,399
Speaker 1: assistant editor for Investigations at News twenty four. He's also

753
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: the author of the book The Dark Prince, the unauthorized

754
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: biography of Paul Mashatila. Peter A Good Evening, you spent

755
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,879
Speaker 1: your holiday reading a book called A Good Life. It's

756
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: the memoir of the legendary American journalist Ben Bradley, He

757
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 1: of course, was the editor of the Washington Post when

758
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: it first broke the Watergate scandal. He was kind of

759
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,240
Speaker 1: at the center of journalism during a very important period

760
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: in US politics. What was it that drew you to

761
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:48,280
Speaker 1: that book?

762
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 4: Good evening, Stephen, Yes, and then good to be speaking

763
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 4: to you earlier in the year with all the turmoil

764
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 4: that seems to come with the end of the previous

765
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 4: one and the start of every new year. Look Ben Bradley,

766
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 4: as you, as you correctly pointed out as one of

767
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 4: the biggest and most legendary newspaper editors in the world.

768
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 4: He edited The Washington Post between nineteen sixty five and

769
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 4: nineteen ninety one, and during that period helped to elevate

770
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 4: the Washington Post, which really was a flailing local newspaper

771
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 4: when he took over the editorship in nineteen sixty five,

772
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 4: to rival to the point where it rivaled the New

773
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 4: York Times as a national newspaper in the United States,

774
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 4: certainly as a paper now that while it might not

775
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 4: have the reach, the and the size of the New

776
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,760
Speaker 4: York Times, certainly is considered one of the world's great papers.

777
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 4: And during his tenure as editor in chief or executive

778
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 4: editor as they call it in the United States. He

779
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 4: oversaw obviously the Watergate coverage into corruption in the US government,

780
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 4: into corruption and the next Strausian and then he oversaw

781
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 4: the publication of the Pentagon Papers, which showed that the

782
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 4: US government lied to the US public over a period

783
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 4: of time in relation to the real state of affairs

784
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 4: in Vietnam. So I really enjoyed it from a journalists

785
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 4: point of view. Enjoyed, you know, just getting affirmation about

786
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 4: what the job is that we do, why we do it,

787
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:28,240
Speaker 4: you know, how we how we as journalists hold people

788
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 4: and people with power specifically into account, how how we

789
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 4: hold those in political power to account. And Bradley was

790
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 4: someone that was able to navigate some of some of

791
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 4: our you know, biggest stories over the last half century

792
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 4: or so, and it was fascinating to get an insight

793
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 4: look into that.

794
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 1: I mean, if you think about sort of the Nixon

795
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 1: era that you were reading about, and you think, maybe,

796
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 1: I suppose to an extent, the Zoomer era, you know,

797
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 1: someone forced to kind of resign through sort of democratic processes,

798
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: I mean, there's some very interesting parallel. I mean, they

799
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 1: did very different things of course, but very interesting.

800
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 4: Thee else absolutely, you know. And and it's you mentioned

801
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,839
Speaker 4: the book about the First World War, and I read

802
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 4: that same book and it was fascinating to see. You know,

803
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 4: history doesn't repeat, but at rhymes, doesn't it, you know.

804
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 4: And and and we we might think that the Zoomer

805
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 4: era might be, might be, might be, might be abnormal.

806
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 4: You might think that the Nixon era might have been abnormal.

807
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 4: But you know, in the end, when when politicians are

808
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 4: given and when they assume political powt it tends to

809
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 4: to have an adverse effect on people's judgment. And Nixon

810
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 4: was fascinating because it wasn't inas much the the deed

811
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 4: of the breaking at the Watergate hotel that sank next

812
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 4: and it was the it was a lie, it was

813
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 4: a cover up, it was the it was the it

814
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 4: was a persistent denials of the reportage in the Washington Park.

815
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 4: And see what it was fascinating was that Ben Bradley

816
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 4: was the editor and the subject of his book. You know,

817
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 4: he was very close to politicians. He was very close

818
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 4: to John F. Kennedy. He was very you became friends

819
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 4: with Kennedy before Kennedy was even a presidential candidate, and

820
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 4: he found it very difficult to navigate his friendship with

821
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 4: Kennedy when Kennedy was president. And you and I, you know,

822
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 4: who've been in this business for a while, you know,

823
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 4: we we you know, we need to navigate the spaces

824
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:20,240
Speaker 4: between ourselves and those who have power, whether it's economic power,

825
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 4: cultural power, or political power, very adroctly, because it sometimes

826
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 4: does become difficult because you need to manage sources, you

827
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,439
Speaker 4: need to manage people you speak to, but you also

828
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 4: need to understand that you do the job in behalf

829
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,319
Speaker 4: of the public, and you are never friends with the

830
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 4: people that you write about.

831
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I find I find that's one of the

832
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:41,240
Speaker 1: interesting tensions about journalism and journalists and politicians can actually

833
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: be quite similar. Bradley spent a lot of time reporting

834
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 1: on US presidents or editing the reporting on US presidents.

835
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 1: We're in a completely different era now, and I mean

836
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 1: you would have had journalists in the Oval office within

837
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: the Trump administration. I mean I kind of often look

838
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 1: at the US sort of journalistic pack and think, I

839
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: think two things. Firstly, Trump is loving it. He's absolutely

840
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: loving the attention.

841
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 2: That's why he does it.

842
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,879
Speaker 1: And secondly, if I were a journalist there, I don't

843
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: think I'd have any other choice but to do what

844
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 1: they do. I find that very disconcerting.

845
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 4: I agree with you, and and Bradley was very firm,

846
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 4: you know, when when Kennedy died, there was there was

847
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 4: a moment where he realized that their relationship was not

848
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 4: one of friendship, that Kennedy used him, and that he

849
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 4: might have believed that he was friends with Kennedy, but

850
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 4: but but I never really were. And it was the

851
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 4: moment when the when when Kennedy's body arrived back in Washington,

852
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 4: he rushed to the medical or the military hospital outside

853
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 4: of Washington, DC because him and his wife waited for

854
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 4: Jackie Kennedy to arrive back in Washington. And the first

855
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 4: thing she said to him was this is not to

856
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 4: print in your paper. And then he realized that she

857
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 4: never considered him a friend and that that there never

858
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 4: really was a proper friendship. So so after that, following that,

859
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 4: the Johnson years, the Nixon years, the Reagan years, the

860
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 4: start of the Clinton presidency or the Clinton era, you know,

861
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,439
Speaker 4: he was very adamant and firm about the fact that

862
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,280
Speaker 4: the Washington Post, the journalists that work there, the Bernstein's

863
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 4: The Woodwards Bradley himself, who was the editor. They were

864
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 4: not there to be liked. They were they were there.

865
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 4: Their job, peer and simple, was to get the truth up.

866
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 4: It doesn't matter what the administration thought, it doesn't matter

867
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 4: who was in power. Their relationship was with their readers.

868
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 4: And that's where it started and ended nothing. You know,

869
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 4: I think you're right. I think the press in the

870
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 4: US seemed to be browbeaten, Stephen. You know, they seem

871
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 4: to be beaten it to submission by not only by

872
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 4: the hard handedness with which the Trump administration is handling

873
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 4: the media, but also by the pure velocity and the

874
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 4: speed with which things are changing. It's almost impossible to

875
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 4: take a step back, it seems to me, and take stock.

876
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 4: But the Bradley book was fascinating. He read He led

877
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 4: a colorful life. I've covered the biggest stories, and I

878
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 4: particularly enjoyed, obviously the parts about Watergate, about about using

879
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 4: your sources, about when to use anonymous sources, when not

880
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 4: to use anonymous sources, and uh and and you know

881
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 4: the fact that they made mistakes. They made mistakes in

882
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 4: what in Watergate they were pillaried for that. By the

883
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 4: end they won they won the they won the war.

884
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: I mean in a way, often the question around journalism

885
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: is does this story move the needle one way or another?

886
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: And in the case of Trump, right now, he gives

887
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 1: the impression of having very strong political support, and I

888
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,760
Speaker 1: remember the same with Zuoma and Nixon. We mustn't forget

889
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,399
Speaker 1: one and overwhelming majority in his in his second term,

890
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 1: I mean overwhelming and and suddenly political support can change

891
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: almost like that it did for Zuoma, it did for Nixon.

892
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,320
Speaker 1: I mean it might for Trump. I have no idea

893
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: of Venezuela might even be the start of it. But

894
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 1: that also informs your reporting.

895
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, I mean you refer to the fact whether

896
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,359
Speaker 4: or not reporting moves the needle. I think, I think,

897
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 4: you know, the water gag was it was a very

898
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 4: good example of persistency in reporting over a number of years,

899
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 4: where you know, they broke a number of big stories,

900
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,439
Speaker 4: but it didn't really seem to break the camel's back,

901
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 4: as it were. And then you know, then it accelerates,

902
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 4: like him Ingway said, when when when do you go bankrupt?

903
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 4: Slowly and then suddenly? And I think if I can

904
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 4: refer back to our own reporting at the twenty four

905
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 4: over the last two years with a Babeta diocurran Cas.

906
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,320
Speaker 4: You know, Jeff Wicks broke a number of big stories

907
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 4: which didn't really seem to move the needle, and once

908
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 4: the cat Matala stuff started getting momentum, then it really

909
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 4: picked up. So it's about consistency and persistency and doggedness

910
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,439
Speaker 4: and reporting. You might break a big story one week

911
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 4: and it can be a you know, it can be

912
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 4: a sensation for a day or two. But it's about

913
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 4: that consistency and that persistency over many years. And I

914
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 4: think that's that's one of the big takeaways from this

915
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 4: wonderfully colorful Bradley book that I.

916
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,359
Speaker 1: Your own book around Poormaschatida a Deputy President, published last year.

917
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 1: Imagine in many stockings over the weekend. Have you had much.

918
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 8: Reaction to it?

919
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: Did you get any you know, statements from his people?

920
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:12,240
Speaker 1: Did you get a did you get the looker?

921
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 4: You know, listen, you get you get you get informal approaches,

922
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 4: Stephen yeh, which which I did get. There were some

923
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 4: informal sidlings up, you know, questioning, questioning the motives and

924
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 4: and and questioning the contents of the book, and and

925
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 4: in fact saying, you know, it's maybe time for a

926
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 4: discussion with with Machatilis people around that. So so it

927
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 4: seems to have hit the spot in the presidency, and

928
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,240
Speaker 4: it certainly seems to have hit the spot in the ANC.

929
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 4: I did to get some good feedback from from ANC people, saying, look,

930
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 4: given given what's in the book, but also given what

931
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 4: reporting has been on a given the reporting that has

932
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 4: been done over the last couple of years, he might

933
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 4: not be the guy for the job. So so it

934
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 4: seems to have it seems to have been read by

935
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 4: by by the correct people, Stephen, And for that, I'm grateful.

936
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:01,240
Speaker 1: That's all you want. Sometimes, I mean, it's some impossible question,

937
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 1: but do you think he's still the front runner to

938
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: be president after President Sarahma Pausa And I mean, there

939
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 1: used to be a time and the only thing he

940
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 1: had to take into account was dynamics within the ANC.

941
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 1: It's not quite like that anymore, I don't. I think

942
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,760
Speaker 1: it's still hard for me to imagine the next president

943
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 1: comes from another party, but that's no longer fantasy. It's

944
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:22,760
Speaker 1: just science fiction.

945
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 4: Absolutely.

946
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:24,839
Speaker 2: Ook.

947
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 4: It's interesting that the NNGC, which was held in December

948
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 4: a couple of weeks ago really didn't give us a

949
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 4: big indication as it used to do in the past.

950
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:36,359
Speaker 4: You'd recall in two thousand and five it was very

951
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 4: clear that Jacob Zuma was making a very, very strong comeback,

952
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 4: but it didn't really pan out this way a couple

953
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 4: of weeks ago. I do think that Mashatille still has

954
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 4: the strongest organization. We've heard names like Talka Didiza being

955
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 4: banded about, a couple of other names that might be

956
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 4: pushed forward, but Mashatile has the advantage of incumbency at

957
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 4: the deputy presidency level, at government level and also a

958
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 4: party level. You know, he has the hearting machinery behind him,

959
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 4: and he's made strong overtures to some key promises like

960
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 4: Quizillattel and the Eastern Cape. So I think he is

961
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 4: the presumptive front runner. But Stephen where in January. You

962
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 4: know as well as I do that predicting politics is

963
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 4: a mug's game. You know, things can change in a

964
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 4: matter of weeks, So this year will be a big year.

965
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 4: The ANC's elective conference comes around next December. In twenty

966
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 4: twenty seven, let's see what Mashatilla does. But I do

967
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:33,880
Speaker 4: think as I argue in the book that if he

968
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,760
Speaker 4: wins it, you know, it's something akin to a Zoomer

969
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:38,479
Speaker 4: two point zero.

970
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: Peter Detoy, thank you so much. Really do appreciate the

971
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: time assistant editor for Investigations at News twenty four. His

972
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 1: book is called that is called The Dark Prince and

973
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 1: Authorized Biography of Form Machetille. The book he was talking

974
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 1: about is entitled A Good Life. It's by Ben Bradley,

975
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 1: the former editor of The Washington Post. Peter Detoy, thanks

976
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: so much of your time on the Money Show. Thank you, Steven.

977
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 1: It feels real, surreal to be on the opposide of an

978
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 1: interview table, but privilege is all mine.

979
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 2: Thank you.

980
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: Do you see yourself as new new ish or do

981
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:12,879
Speaker 1: you feel I mean a job like that. I don't

982
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 1: know if you ever feel comfortable doing it, frankly, but

983
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:16,879
Speaker 1: do you still feel new new?

984
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 2: Ended off the day one? It's very much a case

985
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 2: of you could write get right stuck in yes, news

986
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 2: as you know it's for no one, so really got

987
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 2: straight to that. Don't admit the team newspapers to come

988
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 2: on every day, so news fall gone.

989
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 1: It's one of the it's one of the most amazing

990
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 1: things about Radio two actually is that you don't have

991
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:40,280
Speaker 1: time to be nervous or to feel about new, about

992
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,320
Speaker 1: about being new. You take over and suddenly you have

993
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: an addition to put out and you're responsible for it.

994
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 1: And I imagine that that gets you going very quickly, exactly.

995
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,719
Speaker 2: And that's the both the beauty and the fear of

996
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 2: being an editor is once your name's there, you know, yeah,

997
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 2: something goes wrong. Your your name is Modey.

998
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:02,959
Speaker 1: You're the one I suppose he goes to court. Let's

999
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 1: start at the very beginning. And I did what I

1000
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 1: often do nowadays when I'm trying to find out where

1001
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 1: did someone get their start, and go onto LinkedIn and

1002
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 1: I have a look, and I noticed, and I don't

1003
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 1: mean to be rude, but your first journalism job was

1004
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 1: at independent newspapers, I should point out. It was a

1005
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:23,800
Speaker 1: very different independent newspapers to what independent newspapers has unfortunately become.

1006
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:27,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, as you're as you're alluding to, I started

1007
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 2: a right just before that transition. So I got my

1008
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 2: starts straight out of varsity. I was all straight during varsity. Actually,

1009
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 2: start my postcrad, I had to get a kind of

1010
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 2: job I had no intentions of really getting into journalism

1011
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 2: at the time full time, but I was fortunate enough

1012
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 2: to get a part time job working at the Star

1013
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 2: as a sub well when I started, my honest agree,

1014
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 2: and I really enjoyed it, really got into it. After

1015
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:57,240
Speaker 2: about pretty clean year, I think some of the transition

1016
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:00,320
Speaker 2: took place, and as you know, the a bit of

1017
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 2: a blood bath there and I was I was one

1018
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 2: of the names, and I went on on my merry way.

1019
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 1: When you were growing up, I mean, was journalism you

1020
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 1: say journalism wasn't something you necessarily wanted to do. Most

1021
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:13,880
Speaker 1: of the good journalists, son, I didn't grow up wanting

1022
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,959
Speaker 1: to be journalists. Some let me just say, what was there?

1023
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 1: You know? How did it end up that you ended

1024
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 1: up in journalism.

1025
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 2: Yes, it's a bit of a long story. I mean

1026
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 2: I had no intentions, as you say, of getting to journalism,

1027
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 2: but it was something I was constantly surrounded by. My

1028
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 2: father was a journalist. I worked in most of the

1029
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:33,240
Speaker 2: national titles. My mom, I mean, some of my earliest

1030
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 2: memories are her sending me into the start into the

1031
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 2: corner shops to go buy either mailand Guardian or or

1032
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 2: the Sunday Times. As a youngster, would always grab them

1033
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,400
Speaker 2: feed the sports section straight away. As I grew but older,

1034
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 2: of course, I graduated to some of the rest of

1035
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:53,919
Speaker 2: the sections of the paper, and my parents always very

1036
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 2: willing to get me any sort of print publication or

1037
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 2: magazine when I was younger, I really kind of feed

1038
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 2: that it so, I mean, even when I was young,

1039
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 2: and that you know in that's the gaming magazine, and

1040
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 2: then you know, then it was football, et cetera, et cetera.

1041
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 2: So that that sort of reading and a love of

1042
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:13,719
Speaker 2: and a love of journalism, and I love and a

1043
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:15,920
Speaker 2: love of non fiction in journal always stayed with me

1044
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:20,799
Speaker 2: when I entered in university. I won't even really call

1045
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 2: it a dream. I've called more of a fantasy at

1046
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 2: the time of being an academic. As I said, once

1047
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:28,439
Speaker 2: I got into journalism weld that that kind of real world.

1048
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 2: It really hit me and never looked back from there.

1049
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 1: Clearly, if you're if you're as a as a younger person,

1050
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 1: as a child reading newspapers, no matter which section it is,

1051
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 1: there's a sense of curiosity that you must have had.

1052
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:45,360
Speaker 1: Not everybody has that. I mean, it took me a

1053
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,360
Speaker 1: while to realize that I I was unusual in that

1054
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 1: I kept asking questions and I couldn't stop. It was

1055
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:53,440
Speaker 1: the same for you. You know this idea that I

1056
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 1: need to know a little bit more. This looks interesting,

1057
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:57,399
Speaker 1: I need to know a little bit more about that too.

1058
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. And as my four year old says, why all

1059
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 2: the time, I can see she has inherited that very much.

1060
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:06,279
Speaker 2: But yeah, and I mean, I guess that's a beauty

1061
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:08,720
Speaker 2: of reading, right. There's always needs to ask that question.

1062
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 2: And I think that's those of us that have that

1063
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:13,480
Speaker 2: naturally end up in journalism. You want to ask us

1064
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 2: questions and want to ask why. And I think even

1065
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 2: going now, I say that's where all all all good journalmen,

1066
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 2: all good journalism is born, not just reporting the news,

1067
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 2: but asking that that that why, and expand and explaining

1068
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 2: it to you the reader as well.

1069
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 1: You you mentioned that your father actually had been in newspapers.

1070
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 1: What kind of community were you growing up in at

1071
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 1: the time and when was the soul she's they.

1072
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 2: Would have been I mean a number of communities. Actually,

1073
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 2: it's a bit of a difficult question to answer. I mean,

1074
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 2: probably speaking bored and bred in Joeburg, but as most

1075
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 2: joebig is, no, you're bit of a much if you

1076
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 2: move around so I mean the early stage of my

1077
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 2: life spent in Bears Valley, which I think is a

1078
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 2: great reflective neighborhood of what Joburg can be, or at

1079
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 2: least at the time. M then moved around a lot.

1080
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 2: My mother and father were separated, so it's sort of

1081
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 2: at any given time got to spend time in different neighborhoods.

1082
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 2: So on my mother's side of often it would be

1083
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 2: spent much of my youth in Sandringham more than kind

1084
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 2: of eden Vale side of things. My father moved around

1085
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 2: a lot that exposed me to lots of parts of Joebert.

1086
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:26,000
Speaker 2: So I mean from Jovil to troubl Kinsington everywhere growing up.

1087
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,920
Speaker 2: Then again also kind of I got my first flat

1088
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 2: in Trouvel, moved on to Norwood, and I'm now going

1089
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 2: right sold out to the northern suburbs.

1090
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 1: Don't we all? In the end, I mean, I knew

1091
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 1: Bears Valley, I grew up very close to their actually

1092
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 1: and and sort of grew up doing Kensington and strangely

1093
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:46,520
Speaker 1: soundering a mat a friend who lived there very well.

1094
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 1: So you went and you start you studied advts and

1095
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 1: was it politics that you were studying?

1096
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think like anybody who doesn't know exactly

1097
00:58:58,600 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 2: what they want to do with their lives. You do

1098
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 2: a and you get to do a little bit of everything,

1099
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:06,560
Speaker 2: from psychology to history. Ultimately, the majors I settled on

1100
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:11,320
Speaker 2: were political studies and philosophy. Again, the sort of fantasy

1101
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 2: at the time, I think was to be a philosopher,

1102
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:18,080
Speaker 2: so I did my honors in that. Then again, once

1103
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 2: you kind of get that real world experience, and all

1104
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 2: respect and love to my for philosophy colleagues, but I

1105
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 2: felt there was a bit kind of more tangible, real

1106
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:29,960
Speaker 2: you know, real world worth to be had doing politics.

1107
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 2: I switched to that for my master's degree.

1108
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 1: And I mean, to do a master's in it, you

1109
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:36,440
Speaker 1: must start to be really curious about it. I mean,

1110
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 1: if you're going to do that, you have to be

1111
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 1: very interested in what you're doing to sort of take

1112
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:41,960
Speaker 1: it that seriously.

1113
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 2: At that level. Yeah, I guess so, and then you

1114
00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 2: kind of go to journalism, and I think it's sort

1115
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 2: of it turns off politics. Yeah, I mean exactly, as

1116
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 2: you know, it's a bit of a game. But when

1117
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:58,720
Speaker 2: you're actually studying it, it's called political studies, or it

1118
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:02,880
Speaker 2: used to be called per physical science, right, so really

1119
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:04,640
Speaker 2: as kind of the science be behind it. And at

1120
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:10,760
Speaker 2: the time I did my dissertation on party funding or

1121
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 2: physical party funding, which in the early twenty tens very pritty,

1122
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, was a very important issue. I mean,

1123
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:18,920
Speaker 2: at the time it was clear to see, I mean,

1124
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 2: as you know, that was a major issue, and I

1125
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 2: mean my vote counts had had already started with the

1126
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:27,040
Speaker 2: significant action. Of course, a few years later we would

1127
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 2: actually get to see this pass. But as we see

1128
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:32,360
Speaker 2: it's still it's still an issue. You know, we just

1129
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 2: had doubling of the dreast rolls last year and there's

1130
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 2: still a lot of questions around that. And again my

1131
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:42,080
Speaker 2: vote cards in particular has a lot of concerns.

1132
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 1: No, I mean, as there's still alonggoing on around that.

1133
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:52,600
Speaker 1: Was there anyone particular who sort of influenced you in journalism?

1134
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if it was your dad,

1135
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 1: or if there was someone else who you may be

1136
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 1: bumped into, or a group of people or a particular time.

1137
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 1: We haven't yet started on your career at Mail and Guardians.

1138
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 1: We were a long way to go. But I mean,

1139
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:06,560
Speaker 1: was there a particular person who you thought, actually, this

1140
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 1: person's had a big big influence.

1141
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean those few. I mean, as you mentioned

1142
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 2: my father's specifically, I mean he took took a lot

1143
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:17,920
Speaker 2: of pride in sort of train me especially. I mean

1144
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:20,040
Speaker 2: he was a revised editor, and he took a lot

1145
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 2: of pride and really in kind of making sure that

1146
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 2: I've got nothing. You know, we wanted to be any

1147
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 2: journalist or any editor to be in to be impeachable

1148
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 2: and impeachable, and he really drove into me and that's

1149
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:34,240
Speaker 2: something that stayed with me. Again, we're kind of skipping ahead,

1150
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 2: as you say, on the story then, but I mean

1151
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:39,120
Speaker 2: I've worked with a number of journalists who I've been

1152
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 2: blessed to work with a number of journists who have

1153
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:43,040
Speaker 2: really interested me throughout the years. In terms of the

1154
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 2: time period, I would say my formative views of of

1155
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:50,040
Speaker 2: really kind of shaping into who I want to be

1156
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 2: to be the Mail and Guardian when we had Credutu

1157
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:58,120
Speaker 2: Pitel's editor and I worked very closely with Burgot Trump

1158
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 2: at the time he was deputy editor. He's not a

1159
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 2: communal agc of course. And yeah, look, I mean that

1160
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 2: there's a number of people that can name I mean

1161
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 2: Sipper Kings as well, for instance, when he stepped in

1162
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:12,320
Speaker 2: after that period as editor MG. I think any good

1163
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:16,120
Speaker 2: editor really kind of drills lessons into their journalists. And

1164
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:18,440
Speaker 2: I think to this day, even if it's ten or

1165
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:21,200
Speaker 2: so years later, when you write something or you've gone ready,

1166
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:23,760
Speaker 2: whatever the cases, they they've they have voices always hovering

1167
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 2: over you. And I think in this craft it's it's

1168
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 2: always wise to seek out these these sort of mentors.

1169
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:34,600
Speaker 2: I mean, even now, far more recently, at the privilege

1170
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 2: of meeting Peter Bruce, who, as you know, is one

1171
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 2: of my esteem predecessors, and you know.

1172
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:43,080
Speaker 1: And I'm sure you'll have a view one way or another, then.

1173
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:46,400
Speaker 2: Always askwise, Yeah he is, but no, I mean he's

1174
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:49,520
Speaker 2: he's been extremely helpful and I mean anything so listened

1175
01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:51,160
Speaker 2: or not, he's he's on your phone, call away.

1176
01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 1: So so you go to the Mail and Guardian and

1177
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I I mean, I'm always very sad to

1178
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:01,080
Speaker 1: think of a Mail and Guardian now, not because anyone

1179
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:03,360
Speaker 1: there has done anything wrong or bad or poor or

1180
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:07,240
Speaker 1: in any way, just because of circumstance, because of what

1181
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 1: sort of happened around it. You know, I think to

1182
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:13,600
Speaker 1: be a weekly newspaper now is very very hard and

1183
01:03:13,720 --> 01:03:17,240
Speaker 1: unless you have huge resources, you know, to compete on

1184
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 1: a sort of website based there's also.

1185
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:19,720
Speaker 2: Very very hard.

1186
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,400
Speaker 1: You know, there's a reason why News twenty four has

1187
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:27,200
Speaker 1: so few rivals because it requires huge resources. But when

1188
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:30,560
Speaker 1: you were there to sort of watch, to be a

1189
01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:34,280
Speaker 1: part of news from that that mattered, you know, move

1190
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:38,000
Speaker 1: the dial in South Africa, that must have been quite fun.

1191
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 2: I mean, certainly, I mean, it's exactly that, right, It's

1192
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:44,280
Speaker 2: something that mattered. And I mean, while I agree with

1193
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 2: your broad assessment, I think it still very much doesn't matter,

1194
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:48,920
Speaker 2: and I'm sure and I've got a lot of love

1195
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 2: for it. But yeah, moving there at the time, I mean,

1196
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:54,320
Speaker 2: it was it was a dream. I still remember the

1197
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 2: kind of the real experience of going into this Rosebank

1198
01:03:56,720 --> 01:04:00,120
Speaker 2: office at the time, and everywhere was I mean and

1199
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 2: had these huge sort of max screens, and yes, it

1200
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 2: just felt like this fancy, sort of new age place,

1201
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:07,320
Speaker 2: like you're walking into the Washington Post or the New

1202
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:10,960
Speaker 2: York Times. And again, journalism that was done and has

1203
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:14,440
Speaker 2: been done for years. It's been absolutely fantastic and just

1204
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 2: a you know sort of reception you got as a

1205
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:18,919
Speaker 2: journalist as well when you went to speak to someone

1206
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:20,480
Speaker 2: and you said I'm coming from the Mail and Guardian

1207
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:24,960
Speaker 2: and people people really revered that and wanted to speak

1208
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:27,800
Speaker 2: to and respected what you had to say.

1209
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:30,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's that's a big thing and opens

1210
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:32,640
Speaker 1: the door, doesn't it. If you say Luke Frell from

1211
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:36,320
Speaker 1: someone might go who that? If you say Luke Frel

1212
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:38,560
Speaker 1: from Melen Guardian, the door suddenly opens.

1213
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:42,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think, sorry to cut into you though,

1214
01:04:42,680 --> 01:04:45,840
Speaker 2: it's just going to say I think as much as

1215
01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:48,080
Speaker 2: that's something that we'll forget, you know. I think when

1216
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:50,840
Speaker 2: a lot of journalists and a lot of spoken about

1217
01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 2: how easy it is to you know, kind of be

1218
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:54,480
Speaker 2: a journalist on the internet these days, but people don't

1219
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:57,440
Speaker 2: sort of realize that what that name stillkays, that cloud

1220
01:04:57,520 --> 01:04:59,360
Speaker 2: is especially when you go to a business or your

1221
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:02,360
Speaker 2: politician and you say, okay, yes, can we can you

1222
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:04,320
Speaker 2: give me thirty minutes of this time? I mean, people

1223
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 2: don't people underestimate how difficult that is to actually call

1224
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:09,960
Speaker 2: someone up out of the blue, right, and so you

1225
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 2: see like can we have this interview, can we record this,

1226
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:13,680
Speaker 2: can we sit in front of the camera, et cetera.

1227
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:16,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, credibility is everything people want to know

1228
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:19,440
Speaker 1: they'll be treated fairly. And that's what the brand really does,

1229
01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:23,600
Speaker 1: is this, It does that we need to. I mean,

1230
01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 1: during the time you were at the Mail and Guard

1231
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:27,120
Speaker 1: and you were the online editor for a while and

1232
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:29,280
Speaker 1: he became the editor before you moved to Business Day,

1233
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:34,120
Speaker 1: and this is during that period was really the time

1234
01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:37,280
Speaker 1: when we sort of saw this massive process of moving

1235
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:41,440
Speaker 1: away from newspapers to journalism or being online. And for

1236
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:43,000
Speaker 1: the moment, I do just want to stick to sort

1237
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 1: of what I would call word journalism. So it's a

1238
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:50,240
Speaker 1: textual journalism. So I mean, you know, going away from

1239
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about video and stuff yet it's been

1240
01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 1: looking back. I mean, it was obviously going to happen,

1241
01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:01,200
Speaker 1: but it still happened quite quickly. I mean, I know,

1242
01:06:01,320 --> 01:06:03,040
Speaker 1: you know, I think there are plenty of young people

1243
01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:05,080
Speaker 1: now who might be listening to this. And if you say, well,

1244
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:07,360
Speaker 1: actually used to get your news from a thing that

1245
01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 1: was printed and distributed in that way, they're sort of

1246
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:10,800
Speaker 1: look at you us if you're a bit mad.

1247
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:12,479
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1248
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:15,200
Speaker 2: Look, I mean I have plenty of thoughts on this.

1249
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:18,920
Speaker 2: I mean the first would be that I think print journalism,

1250
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:21,200
Speaker 2: I like to think of print journalists are still very

1251
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:24,000
Speaker 2: much alive. And yes, I do have a bias because

1252
01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:26,160
Speaker 2: that you work at a newspaper, and I've always loved

1253
01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:28,840
Speaker 2: print journalism my whole life, but I think it brings

1254
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:33,920
Speaker 2: something unique to society. It's the news. It's the newspaper

1255
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:36,400
Speaker 2: that shared around at a family table or on a bus,

1256
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:39,040
Speaker 2: and I don't think we should ever estimate how important

1257
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 2: that is to our democracy. And I try to always

1258
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:46,560
Speaker 2: not be defeatist on this because I think there's countless

1259
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:49,240
Speaker 2: publications around the world that have probably done themselves a

1260
01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:53,800
Speaker 2: huge disservice by almost putting in place a self fulfilling

1261
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 2: prophecy that this thing is going to die, and and

1262
01:06:56,040 --> 01:06:58,400
Speaker 2: that kind of mindset takes hold and creeps through your

1263
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:01,960
Speaker 2: entire publication. That being said, of course, you need to

1264
01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:05,560
Speaker 2: acknowledge the reality of where people are consuming their news.

1265
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:09,240
Speaker 2: And the Melan Guardian actually, interestingly was I mean, that

1266
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:13,120
Speaker 2: was the first news outlet to first to first have

1267
01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:16,360
Speaker 2: to first launch a website, and that served it well

1268
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:20,640
Speaker 2: for very long term. Unfortunately, I would say with you know,

1269
01:07:20,680 --> 01:07:23,080
Speaker 2: within the Meilan Guardian's case and just about everyone else,

1270
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:28,800
Speaker 2: actually it's the sort of traditional advertising models that were

1271
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:32,360
Speaker 2: far easier to get when print publication was involved. Not

1272
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 2: in vogue. Sorry, no one has really figured out how

1273
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:36,960
Speaker 2: a way to make that as.

1274
01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:42,840
Speaker 1: Profitable and that's I mean, that's the difficult part. So

1275
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:45,360
Speaker 1: do you think then, I mean, are you a journalism

1276
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:47,600
Speaker 1: optimist to your journalism pessimist? And I can go in

1277
01:07:47,640 --> 01:07:49,880
Speaker 1: both directions, depending on whether I've had lunch yet.

1278
01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:55,840
Speaker 2: I'm certainly I'm certainly an optimist. It is. I mean, again,

1279
01:07:56,040 --> 01:07:58,360
Speaker 2: I can recognize some of the difficulties and some of

1280
01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:01,560
Speaker 2: their realities. But again, I'm a big believer in self

1281
01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:03,840
Speaker 2: fulling prophecies, and I think we have to believe in

1282
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:07,320
Speaker 2: this craft. We will as a country, we will be

1283
01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:11,280
Speaker 2: doomed if it goes under. We're lucky that we've still

1284
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:14,840
Speaker 2: got some extremely strong journalism outlets out there, and it's

1285
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:17,720
Speaker 2: something that we need to protect. And if we don't

1286
01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:19,080
Speaker 2: fail our own work, then who will.

1287
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:22,080
Speaker 1: We're speaking to Luke fel Form is the editor at

1288
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:25,800
Speaker 1: Business Day. He's telling us about his career on My

1289
01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:28,800
Speaker 1: Money this evening, On the Money, Charlotte, Luke, you and

1290
01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:32,920
Speaker 1: I actually we're not sort of rivals or competitors, I

1291
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:35,240
Speaker 1: don't think, but we're in the same business. We both

1292
01:08:35,280 --> 01:08:38,320
Speaker 1: do business journalism. What do you think is the role

1293
01:08:38,360 --> 01:08:41,360
Speaker 1: of business journalism right now? I mean, in some ways

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01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 1: I think it's the same. It's always been to sort

1295
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:48,680
Speaker 1: of illuminate and understand and explain what's going on. But

1296
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:51,080
Speaker 1: in some ways maybe it does change.

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01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:55,320
Speaker 2: Now Steve, I'm fully with you there, you know, as

1298
01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:57,960
Speaker 2: you were just kind of discussing off air, and you

1299
01:08:58,040 --> 01:08:59,720
Speaker 2: told me a very interesting fact that you don't mention

1300
01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:02,680
Speaker 2: numbers on the show, And I find the fascinating and

1301
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:05,080
Speaker 2: I think very useful because I mean, look, business is

1302
01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:08,080
Speaker 2: a complicated thing and the role of the bones of

1303
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:11,760
Speaker 2: the business journalist is to explain it as evenly as

1304
01:09:11,760 --> 01:09:14,800
Speaker 2: possible and as simply as possible, and business like any

1305
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:18,040
Speaker 2: other subject, if you, as a writer are able to

1306
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:20,599
Speaker 2: understand it, the reader is not going to either.

1307
01:09:22,320 --> 01:09:26,960
Speaker 1: And Business Day right now, I mean big websites, print

1308
01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:29,599
Speaker 1: publication still I mean, if you look at you know,

1309
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:33,320
Speaker 1: consistently sort of held its position for quite a long time,

1310
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 1: very long, very important track record. Of course, what do

1311
01:09:37,400 --> 01:09:39,880
Speaker 1: you think the sort of role of Business Day should be?

1312
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:45,160
Speaker 2: Look, I mean I see business Day it has always

1313
01:09:45,160 --> 01:09:46,880
Speaker 2: been in and I hope it can continue to be.

1314
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:50,400
Speaker 2: It's just the must read paper. You know, we've had

1315
01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:55,759
Speaker 2: we've had a couple of sightings of President eral Drama Posita,

1316
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:57,800
Speaker 2: for instance, carrying the Business Day under his arm as

1317
01:09:57,840 --> 01:10:00,599
Speaker 2: he gets into the plane. And that's really more than anything.

1318
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:03,440
Speaker 2: What we love is it has to be from politicians

1319
01:10:03,439 --> 01:10:05,760
Speaker 2: to business people, to do academics. It has to be

1320
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:08,559
Speaker 2: the must read paper or must read publication, whether that's

1321
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:14,840
Speaker 2: online newspaper, whether you're consuming us on social media video

1322
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:15,679
Speaker 2: formats as well.

1323
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:18,280
Speaker 1: I mean, a lot of that's about curation, isn't it.

1324
01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:20,720
Speaker 1: You've got to make sure that someone can read just

1325
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:24,759
Speaker 1: that publication and know they know everything that matters. Anyone

1326
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:27,360
Speaker 1: can go and find all the facts they want online nowadays,

1327
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:29,760
Speaker 1: but that curation must be very important.

1328
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:32,479
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And that's one of the things I love about

1329
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:35,120
Speaker 2: Business Day, apart from business being in the name. I mean,

1330
01:10:35,160 --> 01:10:39,960
Speaker 2: it's a publication that really reflects South African society at large.

1331
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:43,240
Speaker 2: You know, of course, companies and Markets is a strong

1332
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:45,800
Speaker 2: section in the paper, but we've got very strong news journalists,

1333
01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:51,320
Speaker 2: we've got a strong politics team. We're occasionally feature taken

1334
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:53,599
Speaker 2: in such a motoring for instance, Sport is on our

1335
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:57,000
Speaker 2: back page and our website every day so i'd I'd

1336
01:10:57,080 --> 01:11:00,439
Speaker 2: like to believe it's a bit of a mis inception.

1337
01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:02,960
Speaker 2: I find sometimes that, you know, people think, so business

1338
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:05,840
Speaker 2: Day is just is just for the business and client

1339
01:11:06,479 --> 01:11:10,360
Speaker 2: and at the very least business doesn't does not eat,

1340
01:11:10,400 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 2: does does not equal boring m I mean.

1341
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:15,679
Speaker 1: The future of business journalism. And I've always thought running

1342
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:17,880
Speaker 1: a business without knowing fact isn't possible. You're going to

1343
01:11:17,920 --> 01:11:21,360
Speaker 1: make the wrong decision. And that's and that that is

1344
01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:25,320
Speaker 1: why publications like The Economists and the Financial Times with

1345
01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:27,679
Speaker 1: a sort of global audience are doing really quite well

1346
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:30,400
Speaker 1: at the moment. Is that simple fact? Do you think

1347
01:11:30,439 --> 01:11:34,960
Speaker 1: that alone keeps business journalism alive? Knowing the fact, knowing

1348
01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:37,519
Speaker 1: the facts? Yeah, I mean certainly a start.

1349
01:11:38,479 --> 01:11:39,960
Speaker 2: But again, I mean if we look at those two

1350
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:43,639
Speaker 2: publications that that that that you mentioned, there's a there's

1351
01:11:43,680 --> 01:11:46,000
Speaker 2: a far greater reason. I think that they have that

1352
01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:49,719
Speaker 2: broad appeal in it, and they have and have figured

1353
01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:53,240
Speaker 2: out a formula to speak to people with that global audience.

1354
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:55,880
Speaker 2: And again, if we're kind of talking now long term planning,

1355
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:57,880
Speaker 2: I mean, I would love o I would absolutely love

1356
01:11:57,880 --> 01:11:59,640
Speaker 2: to see sort of business Day mentioned in that you know,

1357
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:03,040
Speaker 2: and that they sentence I mean, I'm a Financial Times subscriber.

1358
01:12:03,120 --> 01:12:05,160
Speaker 2: I read it just about every day, still down on

1359
01:12:05,200 --> 01:12:08,680
Speaker 2: the weekend and read fty weekend and absolutely love it.

1360
01:12:08,840 --> 01:12:10,519
Speaker 2: But at the same time, you know, some things sort

1361
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:13,040
Speaker 2: of always is always at the back of my mind

1362
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:16,280
Speaker 2: thinking I would love a publication from South Africa or

1363
01:12:16,280 --> 01:12:19,960
Speaker 2: Africa at large to really kind of grip that global audience.

1364
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:22,720
Speaker 2: And again, as much as I love those two publications,

1365
01:12:22,880 --> 01:12:26,479
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, we're allowing some offices

1366
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:29,479
Speaker 2: in London to set the agenda. And I think not

1367
01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:32,040
Speaker 2: just Business Dare, but there's other really good publications out

1368
01:12:32,040 --> 01:12:34,640
Speaker 2: there with really good teams, and I'd love to in

1369
01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:36,600
Speaker 2: the especially in this global moment, love to see us

1370
01:12:36,600 --> 01:12:40,680
Speaker 2: all kind of reach beyond our current audiences.

1371
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:44,360
Speaker 1: I've been fascinated by watching a big push into video

1372
01:12:44,479 --> 01:12:47,000
Speaker 1: from many other publications that I thought would never go there.

1373
01:12:47,040 --> 01:12:50,120
Speaker 1: The Economists has been doing it recently, I know others do.

1374
01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:52,920
Speaker 1: I had always just in my own head and maybe

1375
01:12:52,920 --> 01:12:56,280
Speaker 1: I'm just conservative, thought, Ah, you know, you can't remember

1376
01:12:56,320 --> 01:13:01,120
Speaker 1: anything from a video, and if information is key, I

1377
01:13:01,160 --> 01:13:03,040
Speaker 1: can't think of a more efficient way to take it

1378
01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:06,559
Speaker 1: in more quickly than reading it, you know, because it

1379
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:08,960
Speaker 1: takes so long for someone to say something. You know,

1380
01:13:09,360 --> 01:13:12,280
Speaker 1: most people can can talk it around three words a second.

1381
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:14,639
Speaker 1: You can read, most people can read far faster than that.

1382
01:13:16,320 --> 01:13:19,360
Speaker 1: Do you think that video, the sort of publication and

1383
01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:21,800
Speaker 1: video is going to that's how it's going to go.

1384
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:23,719
Speaker 1: It's going to take over the world in that way.

1385
01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:26,600
Speaker 1: I find it hard to believe, especially in business journalism.

1386
01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:30,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I'm like You'm very much old school it

1387
01:13:30,560 --> 01:13:33,439
Speaker 2: at heart, and I believe the art of reading will

1388
01:13:33,479 --> 01:13:36,679
Speaker 2: always be there and the written word. That being said,

1389
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:39,200
Speaker 2: I'd like to think of it as journalism as journalism,

1390
01:13:39,320 --> 01:13:41,519
Speaker 2: and if you get your facts down, you do your

1391
01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:45,200
Speaker 2: proper supporting. Whether you get on a format of the

1392
01:13:45,200 --> 01:13:49,080
Speaker 2: written word or on video or on listening podcast, people

1393
01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:51,200
Speaker 2: are still going to find value in that. And right

1394
01:13:51,240 --> 01:13:53,360
Speaker 2: now and again, I think the ideal way, and I

1395
01:13:53,360 --> 01:13:56,080
Speaker 2: think newsrooms should all be should all be looking at

1396
01:13:56,080 --> 01:13:58,960
Speaker 2: that is how to get your journalism that you do

1397
01:13:59,040 --> 01:14:02,000
Speaker 2: on the ground, how to translate that into as many

1398
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:04,960
Speaker 2: formats as possible. I mean, we all have financial restrictions,

1399
01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:09,479
Speaker 2: you know, at a difficult environment, as we alluded to earlier,

1400
01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:13,200
Speaker 2: but as more and more these technologies become accessible, that's

1401
01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:15,360
Speaker 2: something we can do with a normal cost, And that's

1402
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:18,160
Speaker 2: certainly something that we're looking in Business Day is it

1403
01:14:18,200 --> 01:14:20,720
Speaker 2: doesn't have to be a case of sacrificing in the

1404
01:14:20,720 --> 01:14:22,800
Speaker 2: print product, doesn't have to be a case of sacrificing

1405
01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:25,280
Speaker 2: the written word on website. But what we can do

1406
01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:28,720
Speaker 2: is take our work now translated into different forms and

1407
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:30,920
Speaker 2: get it viewed by as many people as possible, which

1408
01:14:31,479 --> 01:14:33,960
Speaker 2: as a journalist should really be your goal, your goal

1409
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:34,519
Speaker 2: in the first place.

1410
01:14:34,920 --> 01:14:38,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I've been fascinating watching with the impact of

1411
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:40,600
Speaker 1: AI on social media. I mean, it seems to be

1412
01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:43,400
Speaker 1: killing social media, and there's a wonderful irony to it

1413
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:45,840
Speaker 1: because there's so much AI slop you sort of have

1414
01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:48,799
Speaker 1: to thraw through pages of LinkedIn to find anything genuine,

1415
01:14:48,840 --> 01:14:52,760
Speaker 1: and even then it's not very genuine. Really, could a

1416
01:14:52,880 --> 01:14:55,479
Speaker 1: I kill journalism too? Sometimes? I mean, people talk about

1417
01:14:55,479 --> 01:14:58,160
Speaker 1: the death of the Internet because it's all just rubbish.

1418
01:14:58,640 --> 01:15:00,760
Speaker 2: I mean, that's the big question that everyone has been

1419
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:02,599
Speaker 2: asking for the past year or two ry And it's

1420
01:15:02,600 --> 01:15:05,200
Speaker 2: not just yeah, it's not just journalists. Everyone's want, you know,

1421
01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:06,720
Speaker 2: wants to know if their jobs are going to be

1422
01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:10,360
Speaker 2: taken by AI. Again, I choose to take the optimistic

1423
01:15:10,439 --> 01:15:14,440
Speaker 2: view of that, and I think that people are fatigued

1424
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:17,960
Speaker 2: by that constant AI and what is becoming a very

1425
01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:21,360
Speaker 2: inauthentic world in many ways, especially the digital environment, and

1426
01:15:21,400 --> 01:15:23,960
Speaker 2: I think there will be a hankering and a desire

1427
01:15:24,040 --> 01:15:28,120
Speaker 2: to get to towards content that is more analogue. And

1428
01:15:28,200 --> 01:15:30,920
Speaker 2: I mean again, that's a big reason why I think

1429
01:15:30,960 --> 01:15:33,280
Speaker 2: journals is not going. It's not going anywhere, and there's

1430
01:15:33,280 --> 01:15:36,960
Speaker 2: a lot of value store both in print products and

1431
01:15:36,479 --> 01:15:38,160
Speaker 2: and there is a word online.

1432
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:40,519
Speaker 1: Luke, thanks very much indeed for coming in. I know

1433
01:15:40,560 --> 01:15:42,400
Speaker 1: it's very early in the year to be doing that,

1434
01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:46,120
Speaker 1: so thank you. Luke Feltham indeed indeed is the editor

1435
01:15:46,439 --> 01:15:48,280
Speaker 1: at Business Day. Luke, thanks very much.

1436
01:15:48,360 --> 01:15:48,640
Speaker 2: Thanks to