1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,160 Speaker 1: In Legal Talk today, we want to try and answer 2 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: a listener's question that is very pertinent with the massive 3 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: fuel price height looming on Wednesday, because it's all about 4 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: car pooling, which I know many people are starting to 5 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: consider as a way to manage down their fuel costs, 6 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: sharing the ride, getting four of you driving together rather 7 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: than four people in their individual four cars. But what 8 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: are the legalities, what are the responsibilities are borne by 9 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: the driver of a car pool? And where does the 10 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: line lie between a convenient ride share shall be corn 11 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: it between friends and colleagues and a professional lift service. 12 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: The question Keith shared with me was as follows. With 13 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: the fuel price going up, I'm thinking of car pooling, 14 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: But must you have a special car insurance to do 15 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: car pooling in case you involved in a car accident, 16 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: especially if you are the driver? Do you need a 17 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: special license as well? Maybe somebody can provide us with 18 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: the answer. We're happy to oblige Keith, and that somebody 19 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: is Bobby Ramaguerede as CEO of the Automobile Association. Bobby, 20 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: you're starting to become a regular fixture on the show. 21 00:00:57,840 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: It's great to chat to you again. 22 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 2: Always a plea of both thank you, Thank you. 23 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 1: Keith is not the only one suddenly contemplating this, Bobby. 24 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: A lot of people are looking desperately for solutions, knowing 25 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 1: what a significant increase we are facing later this week, 26 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: and of course we don't know for how much longer 27 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 1: we are going to be working in this very unstable 28 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: environment with regards to oil prices. But let's start with 29 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: the law around licenses and how the law looks at carpooling. 30 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: What's the difference between a friend catching a lift to 31 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: work with you and a more sort of formal commercial passenger. 32 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: Is there a line in the sand as far as 33 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: the law is concert. 34 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 2: There is a line in the stand, And how you 35 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:36,479 Speaker 2: create distinction is whether or not you are charging for 36 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 2: the fair. So the moment you start charging passengers for fair, 37 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 2: you're running a commercial operation and there's going to be 38 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: an expectation of you. There a you need to be 39 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 2: licensed i e. In the form of a PDP, which 40 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 2: gives you permission to operate that. But given the scale 41 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 2: of your operation as well, you may face you may 42 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 2: face some challenge with regards to insurance. Suddenly your cargoes 43 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 2: from being a personal vehicle to a business which would 44 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 2: have to be insured accordingly, and I. 45 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: Will add to that list. The tax man might look 46 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: at you differently and look more closely at your mileage logs, 47 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: et cetera, if you are using your vehicle as a 48 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: business in that way. So, Bobby, there's lots to think about. Now, 49 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: let's split hairs a little bit. You said the minute 50 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: you charge for the fair is charging for the fair 51 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: the same as saying, won't you just give me a 52 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: couple of hundreds of round for petrol every second week 53 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: and taking a bit of cash specifically for the petrol. 54 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 2: That is the ultimate gray area. So how we've advised 55 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 2: people in the past is if you're going to have 56 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 2: a rotation of vehicles, So let's say to you and 57 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 2: four friends, you cover your tank this week and you 58 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 2: give us all a ride next week, it's someone else 59 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 2: covering their own tank and we're just passengers. Then you're 60 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 2: on the safe side of it. The moment you start 61 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 2: collecting money, it becomes gray, and chances are it'll lean 62 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,679 Speaker 2: towards being wrecked iognized as a commercial operation. 63 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: Okay, So I'm thinking back to my school days and 64 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: the idea of the lift club, where each mom had 65 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: a different day where she did transport duty and we 66 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: were in her car on that morning, and it was 67 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: her petrol that was paid for, so that would be 68 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: viewed as a lift club between friends. But Bobby had 69 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: one of those moms said Okay, I'm also going to 70 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: take fifty round petrol every week or one hundred rad whatever. 71 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: Then you enter the legal gray zone, so thank you 72 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: for clarifying that. So, okay, you mentioned the public professional 73 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: driving permit becomes necessary the minute you are charging for 74 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: the fair. But if you are just doing the lift 75 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: club thing, that four of you are sharing rides together 76 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: and you alternate between each other's cars and no money 77 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: changes hands, is a regular code? I think it's the 78 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: Code five driver's license good enough. 79 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, Code eight, Code ten driver's license both allow you 80 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 2: to fay yourself and passengers in that vehicle. The key 81 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 2: here really is are you taking a fare for those passengers? 82 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: Okay? So, Keith, if it's the four of you with 83 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: your own cars, not charging each other for anything, you 84 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: find with just your regular Code eight is what I 85 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: was thinking of? Or Code ten license? What about what 86 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: happens in the event of an accident in such circumstances? 87 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: Bobby again if you are the driver and it's just 88 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: four of you, you know, who switch cars every week, 89 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: and you're not changing any money, et cetera. Are there 90 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: any additional implications in terms of the duty of care 91 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: to passengers or the responsibilities of the driver in the 92 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: event of an accident. 93 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 2: No unique exclusions come to play here. So this is 94 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 2: no different to you transporting your family friends in the 95 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 2: normal course of driving your vehicle. 96 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: Okay, that's good to know. So again it comes down 97 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: to whether money is changing hands per se. I mean, 98 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: obviously you're going to want to be mindful of the 99 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: care and well being of the passengers in your car, 100 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: regardless one hopes whether you're driving family or friends at 101 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 1: any time. But if you're not charging money for the service, again, 102 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: it's the regular requirements as you would be if you 103 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 1: were transporting your own children. Okay, I know you're not 104 00:04:58,360 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: a tax expert, Bobby, so I won't ask you to 105 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: comment and how the tax man would would view the mileage, 106 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: other than to say please, if you are contemplating this, 107 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: have a conversation with your accountant or do some research 108 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: online to find out about the tax implications, because there 109 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 1: will be tax implications if you are our earning income 110 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: off the use of your vehicle that definitely need to 111 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 1: be taken into consideration. Bobby, anything else you'd like to 112 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: say to our audience. We're now two days away from 113 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: the first of what is probably going to be the 114 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: first of several major price hikes for fuel. We have 115 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: no idea when this is all going to end. There 116 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: certainly isn't any hope of an end insight anytime soon. 117 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: So it's a big chunk of the average families disposable 118 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: income that is suddenly going to be eaten into by 119 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 1: the fuel price hike. Is there anything the AA would 120 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: like to say to encourage better behavior on the roads 121 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: or savvy use and sharing of cars to reduce the 122 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: impact of those increases. 123 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 2: Look, hopefully we don't get to the point where we 124 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 2: have these really onerous increases. It's still speculation right now. 125 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 2: We are in talks with various departments within the government 126 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 2: with the hopes that they'll pull all available leavers to 127 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 2: soften the blow, if at all for the consumer. But 128 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 2: to the extent that we find ourselves with a dramatic increase, 129 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 2: My only word of encouragement to the motorist is drive 130 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 2: as little as you can and keep it within the 131 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 2: realm of affordability. We will continue to do what we 132 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 2: do best as the AA and have these prices reset 133 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 2: to levels that are affordable. But in the event that 134 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 2: you find yourself in a situation where the price is 135 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 2: really unaffordable, don't put yourself in debt over it. 136 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's really important advice, Bobby. I mean, I 137 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: don't know how much you can say. I mean, we 138 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: are coming up against the clock here because the increases 139 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: should kick in on Wednesday, and if conversations are still ongoing, 140 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,359 Speaker 1: it must be a quite a difficult room to be 141 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: in right now. But can you just expand for us 142 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 1: a little bit on the kinds of tweaks and adjustments 143 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:56,679 Speaker 1: that you think might be able to make a difference 144 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: that you are asking government to consider. 145 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 2: So it's all behinged on wherehether or not the state's 146 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 2: reserves are in fact where they are suggested to be. 147 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 2: So should we find ourselves in a situation where we've 148 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:11,239 Speaker 2: got adequate reserves, we should not anticipate an onerous increase. 149 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 2: And if we find that we don't have suitable reserves 150 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 2: to shelter the blow, the lever available to the state 151 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: is to revise the current taxes and levies that constitute 152 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 2: half of the petrol price. 153 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: Okay, so the road accident fund, levee and the like potentially, 154 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: I don't know what you are you asking for those 155 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: to be reduced or suspended for the time being. 156 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 2: Correct, So whether the state wants to reduce or suspend 157 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 2: either way, my our position has been don't make the 158 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 2: consumer pay the price for poor decisions of the past. 159 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: Sure, that's such an important point. Yeah, Bobby, better, I 160 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: mean it is us. You will literally be paying the 161 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: price at the tanks if we don't get this right. 162 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: Thank you for what you guys are doing to try 163 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: and lobby for some cushioning impact. And I think we 164 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: better let you get back to those conversations which are 165 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: more important than updating Bobby, because we really hope they 166 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: will bear fruit within the next thirty four hours or so. 167 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: Thanks for taking the time to update us today, for 168 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: having me kif well. Bobby Ramaguade is the CEO of 169 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: the Automobile Association. So just to circle back to where 170 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: we started with Keith's question, Keith, if your car pooling 171 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: idea is you and a couple of friends or colleagues 172 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: taking it in turns to use your own vehicles to 173 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: share rides into work, or share rides to the school 174 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: for neighbors, et cetera. And you're not changing money. You 175 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: are simply rotating the duties and each taking the blow 176 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: of the tank of petrol the week that you are 177 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: in charge. Then you find you don't need a special license, 178 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: you don't need to change your insurance, and you don't 179 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: really need to think too much about the tax implications 180 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: as well. But the minute you are charging for fuel, 181 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 1: or certainly if you are charging an actual fare to 182 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,719 Speaker 1: say I will happily give you a lift to work 183 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: every day, but it's going to cost you X y Z, 184 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: then you're into completely different territory. As far as they 185 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: l always concerned. You would then be viewed as a 186 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: formal commercial passenger, and all of the other things kick 187 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: into space then interplay then, including the need for a 188 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: professional driver's permit. Thanks for asking the question, Keith. It's 189 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: a topic obviously a lot of people are thinking about now, 190 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 1: and I wonder if anybody listening to this has already 191 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: implemented a car pooling situation because you saw this coming, 192 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: or maybe it was your New Year's resolution to try 193 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: and spend a little bit less on your commuting. What 194 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: did you do? Did you switch to public transport? Have 195 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 1: you find that now that we have some functioning lines 196 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 1: with decent trends on them, it is an affordable alternative 197 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: to taking your car into work. Are you leaving your 198 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: car in the garage and catching the train into work, 199 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: for example, or have you at the office collectively said 200 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: who lives close together, lets carpool and share rights? How 201 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: is it working for you? What are some of the 202 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: unforeseen hiccups you encountered that people don't think about. That's 203 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: the other question to ask what works and what doesn't work? 204 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: What are the inconveniences that come with doing it this way? 205 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: And is it worth that inconvenience because of the money 206 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: that you save.