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Speaker 1: Your Easter weekend. Your sound track on seven oh two for.

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Speaker 2: Those of you that think that gospel music has gone

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Speaker 2: too far.

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Speaker 3: It's Kirk Franklin and God's Property hit Carl from the

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Speaker 3: nineties actually called Stump and that's how we cook off

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Speaker 3: the music Corner at nineteen minutes before ten o'clock talking

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Speaker 3: about some of the biggest songs in gospel, both internationally

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Speaker 3: and locally. And I asked, what were some of the

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Speaker 3: gospel songs that played in your home if we had

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Speaker 3: a gospel playing home, or what are the songs you

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Speaker 3: play now some of your favorites?

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Speaker 1: Let us know No.

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Speaker 3: Seven two, seven oh two one, seven oh two, joined

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Speaker 3: in studio by musicologist academic registrar at the Academy of

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Speaker 3: Sound Engineering. It's a good friend of the show, doctor

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Speaker 3: Sheldon Leal. Good morning, Doctor lel Good morning, Happy Good Friday,

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Speaker 3: and Happy Good Friday.

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Speaker 1: To YouTube.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for joining us. So we started the show

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Speaker 3: with Cook Franklin and God's Property, a song called Stomp

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Speaker 3: and it's such like it's so interesting. It features like

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Speaker 3: such a big part of my nineties listening experience because

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Speaker 3: it came out as in primary school.

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Speaker 1: Oh Wow, and.

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Speaker 3: Gospel never sounded like this, and I thought, I like this, yeah, whatever,

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Speaker 3: this is giving me all of this.

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Speaker 2: What I love about it is, you know, the American

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Speaker 2: community of gospel communities, specifically in the South, have got

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Speaker 2: some phenomenal like choral history. And what I really liked

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Speaker 2: about the song is that Kirk Franklin sort of amalgamated

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Speaker 2: traditions of hip hop, which is really big at that time,

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Speaker 2: specifically nineteen ninety seven when this song came out, that

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Speaker 2: was like the unification of the hip hop world when

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Speaker 2: Tupac and Notorious Big passed away and there was like

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Speaker 2: this unifying force amongst hip hop artists. So he's assimilating

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Speaker 2: that idea with the traditional choral gospel traditions of the

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Speaker 2: United States to create this new thing. So the choir

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Speaker 2: in this in this recording is God's property, and they

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Speaker 2: were choir. They were started by a school teacher who

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Speaker 2: decided she was going to choose his voices and put

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Speaker 2: them together and then and then start working with them.

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Speaker 2: And then they became frequent collaborators with Kirk Franklin, and

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Speaker 2: he created this project called New Project, New Nation, Sorry,

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Speaker 2: which which was like, you know, a revolution in gospel music.

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Speaker 2: So you know, I always find I love Kirk Franklin.

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Speaker 2: I always find him a little bit cheesy, little raps

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Speaker 2: and monologues in between. I find him a little bit

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Speaker 2: like cringe, But I still love him. I think he's great,

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Speaker 2: and I think he's done amazing things for gospel music.

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Speaker 2: And just about three years later, there was like a

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Speaker 2: gospel revolution in the United States, and I don't know,

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Speaker 2: maybe it's because I was heavily involved in the gospel

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Speaker 2: music world at that time, because I was on a

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Speaker 2: TV show called Gospel Stage on SABC three, really and

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Speaker 2: I was a vocalist on there, and it's the same

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Speaker 2: competition that of course you can sing, and it was

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Speaker 2: the same competition that Kelly Kumalo got discovered on Oh Wow.

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Speaker 2: So I knew her quite well from that time. But

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Speaker 2: at that stage, I was like going to all the

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Speaker 2: churches and we were singing at all the churches and

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Speaker 2: doing our thing, and there was like this big like

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Speaker 2: onslaught of gospel musicians CC Winans, Ylanda Adams, Rebecca Saint, James,

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Speaker 2: Crystal Lewis, Kirk Franklin.

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Speaker 1: I mean the names.

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Speaker 2: There were just so many people involved in the gospel

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Speaker 2: world at that time, and they were like sort of surfacing.

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Speaker 2: They never crossed over into mainstream popular culture, but it

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Speaker 2: was a big movement unto itself, and that was the

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Speaker 2: interesting thing about that music at that specific time. But

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Speaker 2: I mean, gospel is an integral part of any popular

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Speaker 2: music that we hear today. I mean, Quincy Jones was

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Speaker 2: notorious for doing choir arrangements with gospel. Gospel choir arrangements.

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Speaker 2: Michael Jackson, for example, used Andre Croutch a lot in

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Speaker 2: his recordings. Under Croutch was this massive. He's a choral conductor.

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Speaker 2: He passed away a few years ago, but he was

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Speaker 2: iconic and like a prayer. Madonna also has Andred Crouch

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Speaker 2: choir singers in her recording. So it's gospels integral part

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Speaker 2: of contemporary popular music, right, And so then Coke Franklin

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Speaker 2: God's Property, they come out with this, like I guess

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Speaker 2: this hybrid sound right.

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Speaker 3: It is very obviously very choral, very gospel, but also

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Speaker 3: very contemporary. And it's interesting that it makes gospel kind

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Speaker 3: of not cool but cool suddenly. Like I remember watching

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Speaker 3: this music video on Channel OH. Whereas for the most part,

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Speaker 3: a lot of the stuff I was seeing on Channel

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Speaker 3: OH at the time was like hip hop, it was pop,

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Speaker 3: it was R and B, but not really I guess

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Speaker 3: gospel music. And he's kind of stayed in that. I mean,

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Speaker 3: he's collaborated with people like.

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Speaker 1: Mary J.

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Speaker 3: Blige and it's always this kind of its gospel.

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Speaker 1: But it's cool. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think the thing is that you know, just because

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Speaker 2: you've got to This has happened a lot with other genres,

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Speaker 2: like let's say opera, Pavarotti, And just because a genre

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Speaker 2: is a thing doesn't mean it needs to be that

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Speaker 2: thing forever. It can evolve. It needs to evolve in

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Speaker 2: order to remain current, in order to speak to the

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Speaker 2: new generation, in order to attract new audiences. But actually

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Speaker 2: I was speaking to Peter Masha Bunny yesterday and we

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Speaker 2: were saying like that gospel is such an integral part

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Speaker 2: of how we are brought up, and especially in South Africa.

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Speaker 2: I know as a Portuguese speaking as a Portuguese South African,

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Speaker 2: religion is a very big part of who I am.

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Speaker 2: It's part of my culture. It's not just that it's

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Speaker 2: not a standalone. My culture and my religion or are intertwined,

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Speaker 2: and it's very much so like that. I think within

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Speaker 2: South Africans in general, that that link between religion and

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Speaker 2: culture is so integral that you're going to go to

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Speaker 2: the churches, you're going to hear those songs, and they're

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Speaker 2: going to become embedded in your fabric, in your.

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Speaker 1: Your identity, who you are.

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Speaker 2: You know, when you're thinking of like sad moments or

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Speaker 2: happy moments, you're going to remember those moments that you

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Speaker 2: were with your family in in church. And those things

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Speaker 2: are so nostalgic that they cross generations and they go

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Speaker 2: from one generation to the next, and you're going to

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Speaker 2: be reminded of those songs that you were listening to

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Speaker 2: as a kid.

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Speaker 1: Like yes, Jesus loves Me, you know. I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: the thing.

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Speaker 2: And when people hear that song, they know that's like

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Speaker 2: a connection to their childhood. So it's a very strong

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Speaker 2: bond that that is bigger than pop.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's bigger than pop.

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Speaker 3: I think of So. I spent most of my time

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Speaker 3: growing up with my grant, who never attended church, but

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Speaker 3: she loved gospel music. And some of my favorite gospel

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Speaker 3: artists to this day are the ones she played. So

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Speaker 3: Debra fraserait LUNDI, I love Silly because that's what she was,

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Speaker 3: she played and so I've grown to like other artists.

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Speaker 3: So yo, London Adams is in their CC Cook Franklin Lebe.

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Speaker 3: I've added my own. But I keep going, like you say,

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Speaker 3: I keep going back to the roots, to the ones

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Speaker 3: that And she wasn't a church girl, but like still,

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Speaker 3: gospel music was a big part of what she was

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Speaker 3: listening to.

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Speaker 2: But also not you know, I think people have got

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Speaker 2: this misguided impression of what religion is. It doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 2: mean you have to go to church. You can be

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Speaker 2: just as equally as faithful and equally as compliant to

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Speaker 2: this this greater purpose with art going to church. And

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Speaker 2: I think the connection is, you know, for people that

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Speaker 2: are not church goes, is the music is the message

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Speaker 2: because they can consume it whenever they want to. They

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Speaker 2: can be in their bedroom consuming that, they can be

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Speaker 2: on the road consuming that. And I noticed that a

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Speaker 2: lot of my colleagues when they were coming in on

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Speaker 2: a Monday morning, they'd be like pumping gospel music in

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Speaker 2: their cars. I could hear it as I was walking

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Speaker 2: to my meetings, and I was like, it's there. It's

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Speaker 2: a massive thing. And people are beloved. I mean, they

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Speaker 2: love this music.

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Speaker 3: And so you mentioned that gospel, unlike other genres, has

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Speaker 3: managed to I guess almost transcend pop, will go beyond pop.

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Speaker 3: And I always think it's so interesting that one of

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Speaker 3: our biggest gospel artists actually started out doing pop.

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Speaker 1: Rebecca Malpet Oh, my goodness.

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Speaker 2: You know, the story of Rebecca Malope is such an

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Speaker 2: interesting one because she actually entered this In the nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 2: there was this competition called Shall Road to Fame. It

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Speaker 2: was was you the biggest thing, like if you were

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Speaker 2: going to get if you were going to get discovered

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Speaker 2: in South Africa as a black musician, you were on

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Speaker 2: shot Shell Road to fame. It was a massive vehicle,

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Speaker 2: a massive star making vehicle. So she had a little

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Speaker 2: band and they entered charl Road to Fame and they

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Speaker 2: got booted in the first round. They didn't even make

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Speaker 2: it anything, but she was fortunately enough for her. There

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Speaker 2: was a guy from Gallo called Seize where Zakor who

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Speaker 2: was listening to the watching the show because everyone watched

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Speaker 2: the show, and he was like, I can make this

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Speaker 2: girl a star. And so what he did was he

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Speaker 2: approached her and he was like, you know, this is

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Speaker 2: what we're going to do, and he groomed her and

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Speaker 2: everything and put her back on the competition a year later,

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Speaker 2: and she landed up winning with a gospel song called China.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, when she got signed to her record deal,

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Speaker 2: MFM Records, they were like, you can come and record

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Speaker 2: for us, but no gospel. You can't do gospel. And

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Speaker 2: so where kept on saying, you know what, can we

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Speaker 2: just have one gospel song on the album, And so

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Speaker 2: she released a few albums, always with one gospel song

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Speaker 2: on the album, and people were so receptive to that

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Speaker 2: that she eventually just transitioned fully into into gospel. In

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety two, she made a full transition to gospel music.

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Speaker 2: But she initially was supposed to be like a Brenda

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Speaker 2: Fassaway von Chaka Chaka or you know, that was what

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Speaker 2: they were trying to push it as. Or Mercy pakele R.

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Speaker 2: You know that's what pop, yes, yeah, disco kind of sound.

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Speaker 2: And you know, it's the same thing they did with

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Speaker 2: with Aretha Franklin in the nineteen sixties. They were trying

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Speaker 2: to push her as a jazz musician, and she was like,

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Speaker 2: I just don't feel this jazz thing. And so when

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Speaker 2: an artist is pushed in a direction that they're not feeling.

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Speaker 2: They're never going to actually succeed at that, and inevitably

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Speaker 2: they're going to be drawn to their to what they

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Speaker 2: really want to do, which is what happened in the

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Speaker 2: Rebecca Ma Lopestoy.

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Speaker 3: And that's so interesting. When we talk about gospel in

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Speaker 3: this country, we talk about Rebecca she is, it's almost

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Speaker 3: it's undisputed. There was a time she had a bit

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Speaker 3: of beef with Devora Frasier. I don't know if that

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Speaker 3: was manufactured by the media, but people saying no to

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Speaker 3: boris coming for her throne. But even after that, I

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Speaker 3: think it's still kind of established that Rebecca and that

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Speaker 3: haircuts were the title holders, because even her haircuts became

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Speaker 3: signature a thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so so my experience, so I've always known of

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Speaker 2: Rebecca Ma Lobbia. Obviously she's an iconic South African musician.

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Speaker 2: But what I never really got it. I never got it,

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Speaker 2: you know, really, as in why yeah, why so big?

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Speaker 1: Why the big?

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Speaker 2: And ten million albums? She has sold ten million albums.

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Speaker 2: This is a gospel start, She's not. She has never

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Speaker 2: crossed ov into mainstream popular culture. Ten million means that

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Speaker 2: ten million albums are being sold out of boot cars, cassettes,

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Speaker 2: people bought CDs exactly, They're not They're not going to

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Speaker 2: the shop and buying these things anyway. Ten million albums.

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Speaker 2: And then a few years ago was at the SAMA

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Speaker 2: Awards and she got the Lifetime a Human Award. Now

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Speaker 2: just before they she came on to announce an award

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Speaker 2: number one. She doesn't stick to the teleprompter and who's

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Speaker 2: gonna tell Rebecca they didn't, They didn't, dare. Then she

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Speaker 2: came and performed the song that We're going to hear now,

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Speaker 2: which is my number one jam of the week. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And I was like, oh my goodness, yeah, I understand.

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Speaker 3: I get it now.

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Speaker 1: I got it. Yeah, because she had me on my feet.

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Speaker 1: She had everyone in that room.

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Speaker 3: As you feeling like you are ascending, like you're just

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Speaker 3: like yes.

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Speaker 2: And she's got so much energy and so much power,

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Speaker 2: and watching her on that stage, I was like, Yo,

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Speaker 2: I get it. It was like me awakening to Elvis Presley.

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Speaker 2: I never got it. And then I watched this video

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Speaker 2: with Elvis Presley and I was like, I still.

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Speaker 3: Don't get Elvis. What should I watch?

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Speaker 1: You should?

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Speaker 3: I genuinely don't get Alvis don't you should.

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Speaker 2: I watched the the Aloha from Hawaii concert and that

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Speaker 2: was like the first time he ever left the you

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Speaker 2: know States. He went to Hawaii, which is in the

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Speaker 2: United States, and he did the concer there. It was

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Speaker 2: like towards the end of his career. But you were like,

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Speaker 2: I can see it. I know what the dynamism is.

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Speaker 2: And then Rebecca my Lopeer, well, that was an awakening

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Speaker 2: for me when I see someone like crawl on the stage.

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Speaker 2: She crawled, she leopard crawled.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, I was like, what is going on happening?

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Speaker 1: And the audience was eating it up.

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Speaker 2: Like the thing is like you in a jaded audience,

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Speaker 2: as it is like you've got a jaded audience because

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Speaker 2: they're all rock stars.

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Speaker 1: Everyone in that audience is a rock star.

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Speaker 2: And then they're all too cool for school, and then

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Speaker 2: they're all standing up for a worker.

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Speaker 1: It tells you, it tells you what kind of an

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Speaker 1: icon she is.

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Speaker 3: And then she did that gospel show, Gospel Time on

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Speaker 3: SABC two.

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Speaker 1: Yes, she's done many things.

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Speaker 3: And then she like there was another talent competition that

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Speaker 3: she did. But then she went on like in addition

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Speaker 3: to being the Queen of gospel. She like anointed others yes, like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like Youuena, and I mean she There have been

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Speaker 2: many people that have come out of this Rebecca my

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Speaker 2: Lope legacy. But that's generally what happens when you've got

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Speaker 2: a big, iconic style. There's a whole ecosystem that develops

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Speaker 2: around them because they're so big and so magnetic.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, doctor Leil, always a great pleasure seeing you. Thank

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Speaker 3: you so much for your time this good Friday.

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Speaker 1: And have a lovely Easter.

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Speaker 3: Thank you you too. Here's the Queen of Gospel with

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Speaker 3: Omoyam on seven oh two