1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: Seven two Weekend Breakfast the Literature Corner. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 2: It is fourteen minutes before ten o'clock. Welcome back to 3 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 2: seven or two Weekend Breakfast with me Corgs and Plomum. 4 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:12,639 Speaker 2: Time for us to wrap up at this Saturday show 5 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 2: and this morning were speaking about a new biography on 6 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 2: Walter Sisulo. It is written by political historian Tom Lodge 7 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 2: as well as completed by professor of Sociology at the 8 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 2: University of Advartis Frund, Professor Roger Salthall. And to tell 9 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 2: us about this new book titled Walter Cisulo A Sense 10 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 2: of Outrage, we're joined now by Professor Roger Southall. Professor 11 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 2: A very good morning to you. Welcome to Weekend Breakfast. 12 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 1: Good morning morning, Thank you so much for your time. 13 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 2: Professor. Tell us about where the idea for this biography 14 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 2: on Sisulu came from. He's often he's one of our 15 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 2: more prominent political figures. And tell us what this book 16 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: wanted to add to what we know of about him. 17 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: Well, I couldn't tell you how it came about because 18 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: originally Tom Lodge was going to write it, but unfortunately 19 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: he died when he was writing it. So I was 20 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 1: brought in to finish it off. I can't tell you 21 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: how he but I mean Tom was a prolific writer 22 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: and he had already written a biography biography of Mandela. 23 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: I think he had plentiful records, and he had the 24 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: imagination to do one on Walter Sulu. I think the 25 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: new biography has quite a lot. I think one of 26 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: the points I make in the preface is that the 27 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: enormous attention given to President Mandela Nelson Mandela over the years, 28 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: He's got lots of biographies and he's got global attention, 29 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: coffee tape books. I refer to a virtual Mandela industry, 30 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: and inadvertence it has meant that the two other figures 31 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: leading figures in the ANC at the time, Aliver Tambo 32 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 1: and Walter Seculu, have been rather ignored. They both had 33 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,239 Speaker 1: one biography of each so far. So this is a 34 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: second biography of Walter Sesulu, which I think does bring 35 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: about some some something of a new view on the 36 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: man he was. 37 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,519 Speaker 2: And so as you you know, say that because of that, 38 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 2: I guess the great prominence that President Nelson Mandela enjoyed 39 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 2: someone like Sisulu then kind of was sort of in 40 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 2: the background, which then kind of and I was reading 41 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 2: a description of the book and one of the things 42 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: I said, it kind of belied his importance. And so 43 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 2: talk to us about, you know, the kind of figure 44 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 2: Sisulu was and why he was so important. I know 45 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 2: the late Tom Lodge calls him an exceptional organizer and 46 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 2: the most influential planner of the ANC's campaigns in the fifties. 47 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's the I think that's historically the 48 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: most important thing that he all remembered for this incredible 49 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: ability to organize. He had a very I think his 50 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: personality was totally important. Unlike most of the prominent political 51 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: leaders of the day, he didn't go to Fort Hair. 52 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: He was not particularly well educated yet secondary education, but 53 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: he left school early. He didn't get his metric. He 54 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: went through all sorts of different sorts of jobs, manual 55 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: and white collar work, always standing up for himself. He 56 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: was outraged by the discrimination he came up against in 57 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: his various jobs, and I think it made him the 58 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: man he was. He underneathed this sort of quiet exterior 59 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: and this very friendly exterior. There was a man of steel, 60 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: and I think that was very important. And he managed 61 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: to combine in his organizing ability the ability to smile 62 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: and to put the boot in when necessary with inside 63 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: the ANC organization and. 64 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 2: So with you know, with this book, what do you 65 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 2: think is kind of the most important I guess new 66 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 2: contribution that we have to our understanding, our historical record 67 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 2: of Sisulu and the person that he played not only 68 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 2: in the ANC's history but in the country's history. 69 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: Well. As I'm saying, I think the emphasis that Tom 70 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: gives on the organization is very important. I think the 71 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 1: one of the nuances that comes out is he stresses 72 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 1: in a way that also wrote the autobiography Bus But 73 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: I think rather more it's called how Walter Sasudu was 74 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: had I was a member of the Communist Party and 75 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: had Communist convictions, but I think unlike many of the 76 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 1: other people, he was not well versed. I think in 77 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: Marxist theory, didn't read the great people. His understanding of 78 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: communism came from his visits to the Soviet Union that 79 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: to China briefly joined the nineteen fifties, and I think 80 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: it was he saw and he felt that the Communist 81 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: Party had a good notion of organization, which is very 82 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 1: important to him. So I think he was you know, 83 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: he was a communist by conviction, but not in the 84 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: normal way. I don't. He wasn't an ideologue in any way. 85 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: A famous comment attributed to him is that when he 86 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: visited the Soviet Union, he felt there was a bit 87 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 1: too much styalin in everything. So I think he was 88 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: he had a certain view, I think, a rather rosy 89 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: view of communism, and it was one which felt that 90 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: it could liberate the people in South Africa. 91 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 2: And speak to us about the title of the book, 92 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 2: Walter Sisulu a sense of outrage? Is there a title 93 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 2: that had been chosen by the late Tom Lodge or 94 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 2: is that a title that you chose for the book? 95 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 2: And if so, why this title? 96 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: Well, I actually chose it. It is a quote which 97 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: is used in the book, not a quote Tom uses 98 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: I think some point. I think he is pointing this, 99 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: this notion of Walter as an individual being outraged by 100 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: the discrimination he felt he suffered from various employees and 101 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: for various employers, and by the discrimination he saw in 102 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: South African society at the time. And I think it 103 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: it he was driven I think by this quiet sense 104 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: of outrage. I mean, he was, as I say, he 105 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: was a He always had a sort of what you 106 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: might call a navuncular personality. And I was very eager 107 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: when I was talking to the publishers about what sort 108 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: of photo they should have. That they should not have 109 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:29,559 Speaker 1: a photo of the late Walter Susulu, the white, wooly 110 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: haired old man who looks like everybody's uncle. I said 111 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: that would actually be in many ways quite leading, and 112 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: that we needed something rather different, which gave him rather 113 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: a little bit of a a more forceful perspective, I think. 114 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 2: And so we have this image of this black and 115 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 2: white image of quite a young Siculu. I don't think 116 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 2: I've seen this particular image. And to your point, for 117 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 2: many of us, we kind of think of him or 118 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: know him as the kind of the older white hairdlian. 119 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 2: So the cover is this young man that I think 120 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 2: many of us have never well, it's not the image. 121 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: We have of him, yes, exactly, yes, yes. 122 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 2: And so then well, so when you were writing this book, 123 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 2: or as you were kind of completing the book, because 124 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 2: it sounds of the book was written, I guess in 125 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 2: not in two parts, but there was the work that 126 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 2: Lodge did and then your completion of the work following 127 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 2: his passing, as you were writing this book. Who is 128 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 2: this book for Is it for you know, the averatauth 129 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 2: African who's interested in our history and perhaps, like you say, 130 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 2: has never read a biography of Ciculo because there's only one. 131 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 2: Is it for historians? Who is this book for? 132 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 1: Well? I think I think it's for everybody, mainly historians, 133 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: and that's important. That's a very important contribution. But I 134 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: do think it's Thomas always written in it, I think 135 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 1: very wile, which I think will appeal to ordinary people 136 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: who are interested, and I think that I do hope 137 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: that the book gets a wide market because of this. 138 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: I think Walter Cecili has been an underrated figure and 139 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: I think it's important that his reward and that people 140 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: acknowledge his contribution, which I think very very important. We 141 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: often focused upon leaders. Mandela was chosen because he was 142 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: a showman and he had a charisma and he knew 143 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: how to play an audience. You know, Walter was a 144 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: very different sort of person. He was more the background person. 145 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: But any leader worth their salt always has this sort 146 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:55,839 Speaker 1: of person in the background. 147 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 2: Professor, I must thank you very much for giving us 148 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 2: your time this Morning's been a great pleasure having you 149 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 2: on the show. 150 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: Okay, thank you, Thank you so much. 151 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,079 Speaker 2: That's emeritus Professor of Sociology at the University of Bridgewatis 152 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 2: Frond Professor Roger Southol. He is the author of a 153 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 2: new book on what's cicilio. It's called waterlo A Sense 154 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 2: of Outrage, a book which was written also by Tom Lodge. 155 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 2: When we come back, we find out what's coming up 156 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 2: and save No. Two music