WEBVTT - Open Line 0:00:00.030 --> 0:00:03.110 It's after 11 o'clock and welcome to the final hour. 0:00:03.130 --> 0:00:08.430 Let's talk, let's talk, okay, let's talk. 011-883-0702 is the 0:00:08.490 --> 0:00:11.399 number to dial, whatever is on your mind in this hour. 0:00:16.020 --> 0:00:19.119 You know, we are going to local government elections on 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:25.380 the 4th of November. And I would argue that it's 0:00:25.420 --> 0:00:29.300 a high stakes game right now, the local government elections. 0:00:29.380 --> 0:00:32.650 This is the make it or break it moment for 0:00:32.850 --> 0:00:36.990 many parties. Some of them might never come back into 0:00:37.270 --> 0:00:44.489 the political formation fray. But I would want to argue 0:00:44.530 --> 0:00:51.390 that this is a critical time in South Africa's political space. 0:00:52.170 --> 0:00:59.840 There are positions, there are positions of influence and power 0:00:59.880 --> 0:01:11.730 and authority that people want. Desperately so. Yes. I suppose 0:01:11.970 --> 0:01:17.530 I want to ask you a question. And the question says, 0:01:17.550 --> 0:01:20.440 is it possible that... That in. 0:01:27.770 --> 0:01:38.869 High stakes political moment like where we are now that 0:01:38.930 --> 0:01:49.360 somebody can forget to to pay the guys that supply 0:01:49.380 --> 0:01:54.840 the chlorine for the chlorination of water in a particular 0:01:54.900 --> 0:02:07.030 district of a particular town Not because there's negligence, but 0:02:07.130 --> 0:02:12.830 because it is a moment of political sabotage. Is that 0:02:12.850 --> 0:02:20.520 a possibility? Some are asking the question to say, who 0:02:20.620 --> 0:02:29.520 benefits out of a crisis that is well calculated? To say, no, 0:02:29.540 --> 0:02:34.419 you just need so much Or you need to not 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:39.940 have so much chlorine in the water to create a 0:02:40.860 --> 0:02:48.950 particular crisis that is political death for some. Is that 0:02:48.990 --> 0:02:52.470 a possibility? I'll tell you why I'm saying that. Somebody 0:02:52.510 --> 0:02:55.830 just sent me a message to say, have you thought 0:02:55.870 --> 0:03:01.580 about that all? that in all of the various districts, 0:03:01.660 --> 0:03:04.200 this is according to a report that came through by 0:03:04.980 --> 0:03:09.160 the Department of Water and Sanitation that says that only 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:17.210 Bronco Sprint at this time had this particular situation. And 0:03:17.250 --> 0:03:22.610 if we do enough scratching, start to ask who's in 0:03:22.669 --> 0:03:31.100 charge of paying those people who must supply the chlorine, 0:03:33.690 --> 0:03:42.870 those people who are dependent on whether or not that 0:03:43.090 --> 0:03:47.090 project works or not for their political reasons, which can 0:03:47.210 --> 0:03:53.030 perhaps at some point be understood to translate into financial reasons. Yes. 0:03:54.730 --> 0:03:56.690 And how come you guys are not asking that question 0:03:56.750 --> 0:04:01.090 at this time? Well, I'm asking the question. 0:04:02.910 --> 0:04:03.090 Yeah? 0:04:04.010 --> 0:04:09.210 I'm asking the question. And let me further add to 0:04:09.250 --> 0:04:16.070 that question. In the context of what Isomato Tafikene said 0:04:16.270 --> 0:04:20.290 just a few weeks ago, to say that we are 0:04:20.450 --> 0:04:29.330 in the middle of the tornado of the politics of inefficiency. 0:04:29.390 --> 0:04:29.630 Yes. 0:04:31.510 --> 0:04:41.210 What I have called many a times malicious incompetence. That 0:04:41.250 --> 0:04:50.940 politicians will sabotage each other using the power of patronage. 0:04:56.839 --> 0:05:04.740 In other words, using service providers to either weaken a 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:14.909 service delivery situation or unduly strengthen it. And that this 0:05:15.130 --> 0:05:22.050 is most likely a reality that can arise in a 0:05:22.089 --> 0:05:27.490 space of coalition politics. Where because we want to have 0:05:27.529 --> 0:05:32.570 this compromise, where political parties are made to feel like 0:05:32.610 --> 0:05:36.690 they are included in the governance of a city, of 0:05:36.850 --> 0:05:42.770 a province, or the country. We create a government of national, provincial, 0:05:43.130 --> 0:05:50.260 or even regional unity. Yeah? Yes. For that purpose of inclusivity. 0:05:52.260 --> 0:06:02.929 But what we now have is a fractured set of priorities. Yeah. 0:06:06.170 --> 0:06:12.070 That if I want to make President Sildama Posa look bad, 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:17.640 I either make my department look very good or I 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:25.840 sabotage that department because I know that the ultimate buck 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:32.419 stops with the president. That I will create a situation 0:06:33.980 --> 0:06:39.260 where the government will be criticized. Sure. But the person 0:06:39.300 --> 0:06:44.710 of the government will be the president. So very little 0:06:44.870 --> 0:06:49.950 scrutiny will go into, but which department is actually responsible 0:06:50.029 --> 0:06:58.580 for this mess? Secondly, or is it thirdly? Not too 0:06:58.620 --> 0:07:02.340 long ago, you heard the Freedom Front Plus say, we're 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:05.140 not having these meetings that we're supposed to be having 0:07:06.250 --> 0:07:08.109 that check as to whether or not we're on the 0:07:08.150 --> 0:07:14.650 same page in terms of our governance priorities. The converse 0:07:14.690 --> 0:07:16.630 of that is that people are going to have their 0:07:16.930 --> 0:07:24.860 own siloed priorities that I would argue become very partisan. 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:25.880 True. 0:07:27.350 --> 0:07:33.410 And I would argue that become amplified at a time 0:07:33.510 --> 0:07:45.060 when people are fighting for votes, like now. So, I 0:07:45.100 --> 0:07:48.060 suppose the person who wrote this to me is saying, 0:07:49.940 --> 0:07:52.310 can we get a little bit more serious about how 0:07:52.370 --> 0:08:00.570 we question the issue of malicious incompetence and how easy 0:08:00.620 --> 0:08:07.000 it is, particularly in the silly season of elections, for 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:09.900 that kind of thing to happen in the way that 0:08:10.180 --> 0:08:17.940 it has perhaps happened in certain times, particularly in areas 0:08:18.180 --> 0:08:24.290 that are populated by poor people, Bronco spray, you know, 0:08:24.330 --> 0:08:29.730 those kinds of areas. That have enough value in that 0:08:29.830 --> 0:08:32.620 we will get noise out of them. But we don't 0:08:32.660 --> 0:08:37.459 really care about the people there. So we can use 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:41.340 them to make a certain political point. If you hear 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:46.540 what I'm trying to say. Aubrey, are you saying that 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:49.800 we don't have water issues in the affluent areas? No, no, no, 0:08:49.830 --> 0:08:55.600 I'm not saying that. I'm inviting you to think like 0:08:55.940 --> 0:09:04.670 a political strategist who says, all we need here is 0:09:04.710 --> 0:09:10.530 a little problem. Don't make the problem too severe, but 0:09:10.570 --> 0:09:18.010 just a problem. Or make it severe. I'm hearing that 0:09:18.070 --> 0:09:21.130 similar conversations are taking place in France. 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:22.979 Yes. 0:09:24.590 --> 0:09:30.730 In Italy, that perhaps there are certain events that are 0:09:30.890 --> 0:09:40.800 engineered to happen in order to shake the establishment, in 0:09:40.940 --> 0:09:46.160 order to put those leaders that would have had a 0:09:46.540 --> 0:09:53.650 good name in the electorate to start behaving defensively. 118830702. 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:57.949 So my guest in the first hour of the show 0:09:58.030 --> 0:10:04.170 was Kouloulis. Senior legal officer At the South African Human 0:10:04.230 --> 0:10:08.620 Rights Commission And I had A debate with her about 0:10:09.780 --> 0:10:16.319 What I feel is A constitutional Order That is impractical 0:10:18.020 --> 0:10:29.510 Wonderfully ideal but lacks levels of pragmatism that enable a 0:10:29.570 --> 0:10:40.380 situation where the politics of inefficiency can thrive. That we 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:45.020 have organizations that are called chapter nine organizations that can 0:10:45.059 --> 0:10:47.380 give you a report but have no power of implementation. 0:10:49.429 --> 0:10:52.740 Which feels like It's a situation where there's a lip 0:10:52.780 --> 0:10:56.040 service paid to the idea of holding those that have 0:10:56.080 --> 0:11:00.540 the power of implementation accountable. Because all you can do 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:07.809 is just write a report. And it is very easy 0:11:07.850 --> 0:11:12.630 to conflate the conversation and say it is a conversation 0:11:12.670 --> 0:11:17.339 against human rights or the doctrine of dignity. No, it's not. 0:11:19.660 --> 0:11:22.500 It's a questioning of the idea that here you are 0:11:22.540 --> 0:11:25.580 the champion of these ideas, but you can't really implement them. 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:29.800 And so you give us this promise of these rights, 0:11:30.250 --> 0:11:34.710 but you can't implement them. True. All you can do 0:11:34.750 --> 0:11:39.429 is give us a report. So we are constantly fed 0:11:39.510 --> 0:11:42.430 this idea that we have these rights, these rights, these rights, 0:11:42.450 --> 0:11:46.370 we have these rights. Generally speaking, we don't see them 0:11:46.490 --> 0:11:53.500 being implemented. So we've got this wonderful ideal that we 0:11:53.540 --> 0:12:03.059 are constantly gazing at, but can't practically implement. I would 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:06.900 argue that sometimes it feels like a sleight of hand. 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:10.199 It's hoodwinking the people so that they focus on something 0:12:10.220 --> 0:12:16.460 while you're doing something else on the ground. Yes. And 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:21.850 that the people of this country experience the very contrary, 0:12:22.870 --> 0:12:27.630 the very opposite of, the antithesis of the promise of 0:12:27.690 --> 0:12:32.910 human rights. And so, the frustration that you are seeing 0:12:33.130 --> 0:12:41.600 in the country lies in that space. Where people wax 0:12:41.740 --> 0:12:45.620 lyrical about, oh, a human rights culture and dignity for all. 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:51.099 But you can't practice it. In fact, we see a 0:12:51.140 --> 0:12:59.750 regression on the hour every hour. True. And then when 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:03.750 you look for accountability, we are told very, very quickly that, no, no, no, 0:13:03.790 --> 0:13:07.309 I'm not the implementing agent. I'm not the state, you see. 0:13:10.390 --> 0:13:16.410 Then why do you talk? Why is it that you 0:13:16.429 --> 0:13:20.730 get these billions of rands as budgets for the purpose 0:13:20.890 --> 0:13:29.260 of holding these? Why do you exist? And there will 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:35.099 be people who will argue to say it is precisely 0:13:35.140 --> 0:13:40.839 because of your existence that a narrative has been created. 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:49.610 And laws have been created that are simply bad laws. Sure. 0:13:51.630 --> 0:14:00.590 Because they are inspired by a mentality that takes no accountability. Therefore, 0:14:00.610 --> 0:14:04.630 you don't need to be accountable because all you are 0:14:04.670 --> 0:14:07.410 here to do is write us a nice report and 0:14:07.650 --> 0:14:10.370 you're done. Pretty much like. 0:14:11.750 --> 0:14:11.830 Us. 0:14:14.179 --> 0:14:16.119 Thinking that all we need to do is call in 0:14:16.179 --> 0:14:18.960 on a radio show, complain about a situation, and we've 0:14:18.980 --> 0:14:25.200 done our job. Give me a call. I'd love to 0:14:25.220 --> 0:14:28.200 hear from you. And then, of course, all of these 0:14:28.420 --> 0:14:36.070 other issues that we've discussed, the opportunities that are presented by, 0:14:36.210 --> 0:14:40.270 of course, the issue of AI, and then, of course, 0:14:41.850 --> 0:14:46.870 this wonderful moment, I think, that we are seeing coming 0:14:46.910 --> 0:14:49.920 out of the Department of Basic Education, if it actually happens, 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:54.240 Uncle Sam, if it actually happens, that we're going to 0:14:54.280 --> 0:15:00.760 see a real focus on developing that early childhood development. 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:02.800 I'm glad to hear that the president did come out 0:15:02.820 --> 0:15:05.530 to say that we made a mistake. We didn't focus 0:15:05.590 --> 0:15:10.670 there because the cohort of young adults who are young 0:15:10.750 --> 0:15:14.270 adults now, had we made that investment then, would have 0:15:14.290 --> 0:15:16.540 been the ones that are coming out to take over 0:15:16.620 --> 0:15:18.820 industry and the economy and lead us. 0:15:18.980 --> 0:15:19.240 True. 0:15:23.580 --> 0:15:24.740 Give me a call. I'd love to hear from you. 0:15:24.740 --> 0:15:42.570 438 people with gastrointestinal illnesses as a result of bacteria 0:15:42.630 --> 0:15:48.700 that comes from human feces at this moment. And I'm 0:15:48.740 --> 0:15:56.060 just hoping that it's not another political football. I really 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:59.710 hope that it is just a matter of negligence, in 0:15:59.750 --> 0:16:09.300 which case heads must roll. But what are we looking 0:16:09.420 --> 0:16:12.680 at here? What exactly are we looking at here? What 0:16:12.740 --> 0:16:18.410 is this thing that's happening before our very eyes? And 0:16:18.450 --> 0:16:21.490 you watch how easily it is politicized. 0:16:21.710 --> 0:16:21.970 Sure. 0:16:24.590 --> 0:16:27.670 And not just the Pretoria situation. All of the crises 0:16:27.730 --> 0:16:32.880 that we've seen. It's interesting the timing of the activation 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:42.450 of those crises sometimes. Just saying. 32 people died during 0:16:42.470 --> 0:16:49.470 a particular administration in Amundskara. I didn't see people talking 0:16:49.510 --> 0:16:57.900 about dignity. 32 died. Hey, we must be afraid when 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:01.500 we hear that 430 something people have contracted a particular 0:17:01.780 --> 0:17:05.090 grotesque disease. We must. But 42 died. We didn't hear. 0:17:05.090 --> 0:17:09.429 22 Six children died. 0:17:09.570 --> 0:17:09.970 Died. 0:17:10.050 --> 0:17:18.750 Died last year. Yeah. Didn't hear. No. The dignity. The 0:17:18.830 --> 0:17:27.080 dignity of the human to this day. Sometimes you just 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:30.280 look at the timing, man, and you say, hey, this 0:17:30.300 --> 0:17:31.500 time is very convenient. 0:17:31.820 --> 0:17:32.060 True. 0:17:32.060 --> 0:17:42.480 702. Call us on 011-883-0702. Let's go straight to the lines. 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:44.679 Kabelu is in Montana Park. Kabelu, hi. 0:17:45.700 --> 0:17:46.180 Hi, Ndodeo. 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:48.119 How are you? I'm very well, thank you, sir. What's 0:17:48.180 --> 0:17:48.620 on your mind? 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:51.850 I'm good, thank you. No, I was just wanting to 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:56.010 comment on your earlier discussion with the gentleman regarding AI. 0:17:56.050 --> 0:17:56.250 Yes. 0:17:56.470 --> 0:17:58.490 Its uses. 0:17:59.990 --> 0:18:03.170 I'll even make a perfect example with the current issue 0:18:03.210 --> 0:18:07.560 that we have in Bronco Sprite. I mean, if applied properly, 0:18:08.910 --> 0:18:16.430 AI could have helped the city by checking suppliers, making 0:18:16.490 --> 0:18:22.700 sure that pricing is relating to or within market related. 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:27.200 I mean, a 400% increase in pricing on chlorine. I mean, 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:31.440 that just sounds ridiculous, even for a layman such as myself. 0:18:31.970 --> 0:18:36.410 But I mean, applied correctly, AI and how you use 0:18:36.470 --> 0:18:41.420 it as a, let's say, for example, an engineer working 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:46.820 at the waterworks, you use it to upskill yourself and 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:50.580 the systems around you so that things like this don't happen. 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.459 I mean, those are the benefits of AI. I understand 0:18:53.530 --> 0:18:57.770 some of the listeners might think that we're heading towards 0:18:57.790 --> 0:19:00.890 a Terminator-type ending. 0:19:01.030 --> 0:19:05.070 Apocalyptic, my brother. Apocalyptic stuff. 0:19:05.190 --> 0:19:05.290 Yeah. 0:19:06.210 --> 0:19:11.560 But, I mean, as a person that I have a 0:19:11.619 --> 0:19:14.480 business that we deal in AI, so we come in 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:18.100 and audit your company and then recommend systems and build 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:24.290 systems that uplift, number one, upskill your people, and number two, 0:19:24.710 --> 0:19:28.650 help your people do better work or improve on their 0:19:28.670 --> 0:19:31.530 skills instead of taking the job away and replacing it 0:19:31.590 --> 0:19:36.300 with a bot system. rather build a bot that helps 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:40.540 you do your job better. I think that's where there's 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:43.280 spaces for us to use AI responsibly. 0:19:43.300 --> 0:19:52.330 What do you make Abelo, of the conversation around the 0:19:52.390 --> 0:20:01.540 fact that we simply don't know what is at the fundamental, 0:20:01.690 --> 0:20:08.460 at the foundational intelligence of AI? That its ability to 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:22.720 learn isn't just algorithmic. That it is almost otherworldly. You 0:20:22.900 --> 0:20:25.740 would have heard Andisa talk about the fact that here's 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:31.500 this thing that was able to leave its sandbox and 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:36.160 go and learn and then come back and do what 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:39.190 it was supposed to do. And I'm listening to a 0:20:39.230 --> 0:20:42.040 lot of AI experts, including some of the owners of 0:20:42.100 --> 0:20:46.460 these companies say they don't really know what is the 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:53.060 force behind this efficiency of AI. It is beyond just 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:55.940 human designed algorithms. 0:20:59.540 --> 0:21:08.090 Look, I would venture to say that Number one, I'm self-taught. 0:21:08.190 --> 0:21:10.330 So I lost my job in December and then I 0:21:10.390 --> 0:21:12.330 took it upon myself to teach myself as much as 0:21:12.390 --> 0:21:20.070 I could on AI and reskill myself. So on that 0:21:20.130 --> 0:21:24.190 being said, I think everything you plug in or put 0:21:24.290 --> 0:21:27.530 into AI comes from a human. 0:21:28.450 --> 0:21:28.650 Yes. 0:21:28.970 --> 0:21:33.560 I know when you discuss a saying, you'll correct me 0:21:33.580 --> 0:21:36.360 if I'm wrong, anything made by a human can so 0:21:36.420 --> 0:21:40.760 be undone. That's usually referred to as if you put 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:43.520 a system in place, a criminal can come and figure 0:21:43.580 --> 0:21:46.620 it out. And I think the same could be applied 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:51.430 to AI in this case, where we have created this thing, 0:21:51.650 --> 0:21:54.149 we have taught it. I mean, there's situations in the 0:21:54.250 --> 0:21:57.570 US where they're putting the robots in the factories to 0:21:57.650 --> 0:22:01.780 learn from factory workers, and then the robot's use the 0:22:01.900 --> 0:22:04.760 algorithm to do the work better, faster, and more efficiently. 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:15.850 And would they have learned some of the human frailties, 0:22:16.850 --> 0:22:21.250 like maybe to jippo something? Would they learn that? 0:22:22.890 --> 0:22:25.520 Look, with the example of the AI that escaped from 0:22:25.540 --> 0:22:29.020 the sandbox, it escaped particularly because they wanted to cheat. 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:32.320 It didn't want to do the work, so it figured 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:35.879 out where the answers were and came back and it 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:37.199 essentially cheated. 0:22:37.220 --> 0:22:40.690 So it has. 0:22:40.109 --> 0:22:46.290 This concept of cheating, of lying, and what the truth 0:22:46.770 --> 0:22:51.919 is and what the truth isn't. So in that aspect, 0:22:51.980 --> 0:22:55.700 it is a little bit scary that the AI way 0:22:55.720 --> 0:23:01.320 it is now is thinking of... itself in inverted commas, 0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:06.200 and therein lies the danger. It's starting to sink off. 0:23:06.359 --> 0:23:08.100 I want to throw this at you, and then we're 0:23:08.220 --> 0:23:12.350 going to part ways. Yes, sir. So somebody was saying 0:23:12.390 --> 0:23:17.850 to me that AI, as an artificial intelligence, has stolen 0:23:17.910 --> 0:23:22.350 certain principles from the original AI, which is ancient intelligence. 0:23:23.410 --> 0:23:23.670 Yes. 0:23:23.850 --> 0:23:29.240 And And ancient intelligence is embedded, for example, in the 0:23:29.300 --> 0:23:35.120 fact that the seed of a particular plant will only 0:23:35.220 --> 0:23:40.370 produce the fruit of that plant. There's an intelligence that 0:23:40.470 --> 0:23:45.050 is embedded in the makeup of this plant, whether it's 0:23:45.109 --> 0:23:47.570 seed form, whether it is the plant itself, whether it's 0:23:47.630 --> 0:23:50.560 the fruit. But there is an intelligence that is embedded 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:55.340 that has a loyalty or a fidelity to purpose that 0:23:55.440 --> 0:23:57.979 produces of its kind, right? 0:23:58.359 --> 0:23:58.600 Yeah. 0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:07.170 And that what artificial intelligence is a perversion of that ability. Yeah. 0:24:07.250 --> 0:24:15.770 It has taken humanity or the antithesis of that former AI, 0:24:16.170 --> 0:24:20.869 ancient intelligence, whatever thousands of years to get to the 0:24:20.930 --> 0:24:28.129 point where the door into that laboratory is now open. Yes. 0:24:28.310 --> 0:24:34.410 And that is why it feels almost spiritual, almost like 0:24:34.450 --> 0:24:34.970 a deity. 0:24:36.190 --> 0:24:36.470 Yes. 0:24:36.630 --> 0:24:41.740 And that is why we need to approach it with 0:24:41.820 --> 0:24:48.300 real caution because it has real, real power. Okay. 0:24:49.340 --> 0:24:51.200 Thank you, sir. 0:24:51.380 --> 0:24:55.330 Thank you, sir. Much appreciated. Let me speak to Shaitan 0:24:55.530 --> 0:24:57.030 in Orange Farm. Hi, Shaitan. 0:24:58.430 --> 0:24:59.450 Hi, how are you, brother? 0:24:59.690 --> 0:25:01.630 I'm very well, Shaitan. What's on your mind? 0:25:03.450 --> 0:25:07.050 I want to talk about water treatment and purification because 0:25:07.130 --> 0:25:12.090 I've been once working there and my name is registered 0:25:13.590 --> 0:25:17.109 Minister of Water and Forestry. 0:25:17.350 --> 0:25:17.469 Yes. 0:25:19.480 --> 0:25:24.720 I worked as a water engineer at Camden Power Station. 0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:26.280 Yeah. 0:25:27.280 --> 0:25:30.570 I think because the rules there were very strict. You 0:25:30.590 --> 0:25:32.409 don't bring beer, you don't bring dacha. 0:25:32.730 --> 0:25:32.910 Yeah. 0:25:34.090 --> 0:25:37.850 You must be a sober person. So why I say so? 0:25:38.470 --> 0:25:43.550 I say so because the guy who was... operating during 0:25:43.609 --> 0:25:53.400 the supply of dirty, untreated water to human consumption, I'm 0:25:53.520 --> 0:26:00.620 sure you are sober. Because if there are no chemicals, 0:26:00.740 --> 0:26:05.160 you can't commission the plant. So if you say your 0:26:05.240 --> 0:26:10.030 idea of saying it's political, I will say yes, because 0:26:10.050 --> 0:26:12.660 what I'm going to bring in here, maybe you don't 0:26:12.680 --> 0:26:17.449 know about it. Since I started that job of working 0:26:17.530 --> 0:26:23.830 as a water engineer in potable water and effluent disposal, 0:26:24.390 --> 0:26:31.510 the sewage plant, when you say to the effluent. These 0:26:31.570 --> 0:26:38.220 places here are run by contractors and To get that contract, 0:26:38.260 --> 0:26:42.659 you must buy from that. You must see somebody in 0:26:42.680 --> 0:26:49.429 the council. I worked at a Waukeville sewage plant. I 0:26:49.510 --> 0:26:53.109 worked at a Mojales bag. I was nearly going to 0:26:53.170 --> 0:26:55.920 work at Pretoria where they were telling me that, hey, 0:26:55.960 --> 0:26:59.040 that one is very big. And then I was taken 0:26:59.080 --> 0:27:06.290 to Camden Power Station. So there are rules there. you 0:27:06.369 --> 0:27:11.710 check the humidity of the water, the cleanness. You check 0:27:11.760 --> 0:27:15.200 it and report it and write it down. You report 0:27:15.220 --> 0:27:19.260 the conditions of the plant when you get into the 0:27:19.320 --> 0:27:21.459 shift and change the other. 0:27:21.700 --> 0:27:24.460 So let me see if I'm with you, Shait. You're 0:27:24.859 --> 0:27:29.010 saying to me that there are systems in place. 0:27:29.030 --> 0:27:29.100 Yes. 0:27:29.109 --> 0:27:32.030 And those systems would have to be sabotaged one way 0:27:32.070 --> 0:27:35.760 or the other in order to produce... what we are seeing. 0:27:37.119 --> 0:27:41.159 Yes, because those people who are operating, they are not 0:27:41.180 --> 0:27:46.080 from the council. They are outsourced people. They are contractors. 0:27:47.530 --> 0:27:50.390 I would like you, as this story grows, I would 0:27:50.450 --> 0:27:54.170 like you to find out for me about who is operating. 0:27:54.310 --> 0:27:58.750 Is it the municipality or the contractor? Then when you 0:27:58.790 --> 0:28:02.640 go to investigation, find out if it is the previous 0:28:03.320 --> 0:28:11.530 councillor who appointed when the contractor was appointed. Because those 0:28:11.609 --> 0:28:16.510 people who will take the decisions of supplying untreated water 0:28:17.090 --> 0:28:24.109 are people who don't have knowledge about that job. So 0:28:24.250 --> 0:28:28.470 those people who appointed them, they are those contractors who 0:28:28.650 --> 0:28:32.230 buy the job And then they just pick somebody to 0:28:32.270 --> 0:28:34.560 come and do. They think it's just simple. There is 0:28:34.600 --> 0:28:37.700 some education which is needed. A standard eight. 0:28:38.620 --> 0:28:41.580 You know, I hear you. I hear you, Shaitan. Oh, 0:28:41.660 --> 0:28:45.860 it was just, you know, procurement issues. The supplier just 0:28:45.900 --> 0:28:54.310 wanted 400% increase. I mean, we must learn to listen sometimes. 0:28:58.630 --> 0:29:07.630 We must learn to listen. And then here. All right. 0:29:09.690 --> 0:29:13.750 Let me speak to Tabang in Alberton. Hi, Tabang. 0:29:15.490 --> 0:29:16.200 Hi, Brobs. 0:29:16.240 --> 0:29:17.160 How are you? 0:29:17.380 --> 0:29:18.660 I'm very well, Tabang. 0:29:18.700 --> 0:29:19.080 How are you? 0:29:20.160 --> 0:29:20.620 I'm good. 0:29:20.680 --> 0:29:23.180 I'm good. I'm good. As good as I can be 0:29:23.200 --> 0:29:25.340 in Ramaphosa's economy, Brobs. 0:29:25.520 --> 0:29:25.770 Yeah. 0:29:26.920 --> 0:29:30.180 Yeah. No, I just wanted to talk about the earlier 0:29:30.200 --> 0:29:34.530 discussion you had with the lady from the Human Rights Commission. 0:29:34.610 --> 0:29:38.810 I feel like I was a bit more on her 0:29:38.870 --> 0:29:44.160 side in 2018. of the position that they're in. The 0:29:44.200 --> 0:29:46.860 reason why is that I feel like when you're looking 0:29:46.940 --> 0:29:50.860 at how the democratic system is set up, there are 0:29:50.900 --> 0:29:55.610 different role players and divisional powers and everything. And You 0:29:55.690 --> 0:29:58.840 need a lot of those components working together in order 0:29:58.880 --> 0:30:01.820 to get the results that we need. And when you 0:30:01.860 --> 0:30:05.600 look at the state of our country right now, our 0:30:05.760 --> 0:30:12.930 executive branch is corrupt and lewd and very incompetent, maliciously incompetent, 0:30:12.970 --> 0:30:18.820 as you would say. Parliament almost refuses to hold anyone 0:30:18.840 --> 0:30:24.290 within the executive to account. And on their side, in 0:30:24.310 --> 0:30:27.990 terms of the Human Rights Commission, they're utilizing the powers 0:30:28.010 --> 0:30:30.810 that they have to the best of their abilities. But 0:30:30.850 --> 0:30:35.870 the reality is that those flu meds aren't going to 0:30:35.930 --> 0:30:40.680 help when you've got cancer and rigor mortis and all 0:30:40.720 --> 0:30:44.580 these other diseases that are also taking place. The problem 0:30:44.620 --> 0:30:47.920 is much, much deeper than what they can handle by themselves. 0:30:48.000 --> 0:30:51.710 And that's just the nature of being in a democracy. Like, 0:30:51.930 --> 0:30:57.410 there's a social contract that's in place where even us 0:30:57.630 --> 0:31:00.820 as citizens within the country have to play our role 0:31:00.890 --> 0:31:03.340 in order for these things to work out and for 0:31:04.760 --> 0:31:06.860 the relevant people to be held to account. 0:31:06.880 --> 0:31:10.840 I hear you. I hear you. And I must agree 0:31:10.880 --> 0:31:15.820 with you that we can't look at one Chapter 9 0:31:15.820 --> 0:31:19.959 organization and place upon it the responsibility of the failure 0:31:20.040 --> 0:31:23.970 of the whole of government, I hear you. Here's where 0:31:24.370 --> 0:31:29.390 the problem for me is. If you're going to defend 0:31:29.570 --> 0:31:36.340 a doctrine and say to me that the principle of 0:31:36.420 --> 0:31:48.570 human rights must be applied without thinking about the contextual situation. 0:31:49.350 --> 0:31:56.430 In other words, whether there is resources, whether there is ability. 0:31:56.450 --> 0:32:01.710 So for example, the constitutional court says, no, you will 0:32:03.170 --> 0:32:13.390 afford asylum seekers the opportunity to go to those interviews, 0:32:13.780 --> 0:32:18.760 whether they are in the country legally or not. As 0:32:19.060 --> 0:32:28.660 a foundational principle of our human rights based constitution, but 0:32:28.720 --> 0:32:33.000 you don't check whether the capacity to do that exists 0:32:33.280 --> 0:32:39.240 or not, I think is a sabotaging of the system. 0:32:40.970 --> 0:32:43.370 And it is a sabotaging, not only of the system, 0:32:43.430 --> 0:32:48.150 but the implementing agents of that system, including chapter nine, uh, 0:32:53.890 --> 0:32:58.830 organizations such as the South African Human Rights Commission. Secondly, 0:32:59.270 --> 0:33:03.940 if you've got laws that say that if I give 0:33:03.980 --> 0:33:07.120 you a place to stay, you come and you rent 0:33:07.160 --> 0:33:09.940 a place to stay for me, and because you know 0:33:10.000 --> 0:33:14.710 that we live in a dispensation where this idea of 0:33:14.810 --> 0:33:25.500 human rights is is universally applied without any situational interpretation. 0:33:27.440 --> 0:33:31.570 Meaning that if I understand that, I will hijack a building, 0:33:32.430 --> 0:33:34.590 knowing that in terms of the law of this country, 0:33:34.610 --> 0:33:37.370 you can't push me out until you find a place. 0:33:37.850 --> 0:33:40.489 And you say to me, that is based on the 0:33:40.530 --> 0:33:43.370 problems that we experienced during the apartheid era where that happened. 0:33:45.810 --> 0:33:48.870 That injustice was done to a lot of people. I'm 0:33:48.910 --> 0:33:53.150 saying that's dangerous to have a law that is simply 0:33:53.190 --> 0:33:59.920 the antithesis of a wrong. Any law should exist not 0:34:00.040 --> 0:34:04.760 because of a wrong that another law existed. Because all 0:34:04.800 --> 0:34:07.060