1
00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:05,320
Speaker 1: What's seven o two we get breakfast psychological wellness.

2
00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,200
Speaker 2: We've got doctor Corcygani.

3
00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:09,600
Speaker 3: Nine minutes after nine o'clock time for us to talk

4
00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:13,520
Speaker 3: psychological oneness for this week. And it seems, you know,

5
00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:15,920
Speaker 3: when I initially read this article it was published in

6
00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:18,080
Speaker 3: Time magazine, I thought this might be a little bit

7
00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,159
Speaker 3: of a contradiction because last year, sometime last year, we

8
00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,920
Speaker 3: had a psychological wellness conversation about oversharing when is it

9
00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:29,200
Speaker 3: too soon to reveal certain details, certain bits of information

10
00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,960
Speaker 3: about yourself, et cetera. But this article is arguing that

11
00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,839
Speaker 3: actually we don't have a problem of TMI of too

12
00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,680
Speaker 3: much information. We have the opposite problem, and that's the

13
00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,040
Speaker 3: problem of too little information.

14
00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:41,720
Speaker 2: That many of us.

15
00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:46,080
Speaker 3: Don't share our real feelings, whether it is in the workplace,

16
00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,120
Speaker 3: within our relationships, someone hurts your feelings or offends you,

17
00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,920
Speaker 3: or you know, they do something you don't enjoy, and

18
00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:56,640
Speaker 3: you don't say anything because you don't want to upset them,

19
00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,160
Speaker 3: you don't want to seem whatever it is. And so

20
00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:03,440
Speaker 3: this we were talking about, well, the defense in defense

21
00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:08,520
Speaker 3: of oversharing, that maybe we should be saying things that

22
00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,640
Speaker 3: we rarely say that we're afraid to say that would

23
00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,040
Speaker 3: be awkward. We should be saying those things. And I'd

24
00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:16,840
Speaker 3: love to hear your thoughts on this as well. I

25
00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,240
Speaker 3: know double one eight three or seven oh two, Senda

26
00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:21,320
Speaker 3: says to Mesas on three to one seven oh two,

27
00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,440
Speaker 3: and you can once uss on seven to seven oh

28
00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:26,760
Speaker 3: two one seven oh two. We are joined as always

29
00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:31,520
Speaker 3: by a resident clinical psychologist, doctor Corcim, Doctor Janet. A

30
00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:33,400
Speaker 3: very good morning to you. Is always great to have

31
00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:34,080
Speaker 3: you on the show.

32
00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:36,240
Speaker 4: Good morning, good morning gook.

33
00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:41,440
Speaker 2: Yes, so here we are again, we meet again, indeed, and.

34
00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,200
Speaker 3: So but the's time to ask I guess a different

35
00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,520
Speaker 3: question to one we asked a few months ago on

36
00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,520
Speaker 3: this vary show, This idea of is it possible to

37
00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,960
Speaker 3: reveal too much too soon? Because we all as humans,

38
00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,800
Speaker 3: even though we might not agree on what that timeframe

39
00:01:57,920 --> 00:01:59,840
Speaker 3: is or how long that is, we all have a

40
00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,880
Speaker 3: that there's certain things you tell people at certain times,

41
00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:06,600
Speaker 3: and a lot of it has to do with a

42
00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,640
Speaker 3: sense of trust. I trust you now, and so I

43
00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:11,840
Speaker 3: feel safe and I can tell you A, B and

44
00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:13,239
Speaker 3: C H.

45
00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:15,680
Speaker 2: But this one's a little bit different. It is saying

46
00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:16,360
Speaker 2: in our day to.

47
00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,959
Speaker 3: Day with it is our work life, our relationships, our

48
00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,440
Speaker 3: interactions with strangers. Even many of us aren't saying enough.

49
00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,840
Speaker 3: We're actually saying too little, and we could actually do

50
00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,520
Speaker 3: we're saying a little bit more. What I guess many

51
00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:35,960
Speaker 3: of us, given how little we say, what we would

52
00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:37,639
Speaker 3: consider oversharing.

53
00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:45,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it flips the script in that it's introducing

54
00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:51,440
Speaker 1: the idea that you know too much, and it's in

55
00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:53,560
Speaker 1: the it's in there too much and how much is

56
00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:54,000
Speaker 1: too much?

57
00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:54,240
Speaker 3: Right?

58
00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:59,800
Speaker 1: But the principle being advanced here is rather air on

59
00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,520
Speaker 1: side of talking about things, of putting issues on the table,

60
00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:11,680
Speaker 1: of risking resolution of issues rather than risking you know,

61
00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,880
Speaker 1: shoving things under the carpet, because it does not make

62
00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,800
Speaker 1: them go away. So here's the dilemma, right, It's the

63
00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:25,280
Speaker 1: it's the risk reward dilemma because in taking a chance

64
00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:29,880
Speaker 1: to speak up, there's a chance that you might win

65
00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,160
Speaker 1: or lose, get it right or not get.

66
00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,240
Speaker 4: It right, resolve or not resolve.

67
00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:38,800
Speaker 1: However, in not taking that chance, you miss one hundred

68
00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:43,080
Speaker 1: percent of the chances that you never take. So if

69
00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:47,560
Speaker 1: you don't talk about it, the consequence is one that

70
00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,880
Speaker 1: you miss the opportunity to get to a point of resolution,

71
00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,800
Speaker 1: Whereas if you do talk about it. There's a chance

72
00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,320
Speaker 1: it may go this way or that way. So therefore,

73
00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,760
Speaker 1: just like doing the math, it makes sense to air

74
00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:03,680
Speaker 1: on the side of putting issues on the table, discussing

75
00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:08,800
Speaker 1: and resolving them, right, because silence is a silent killer

76
00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:09,920
Speaker 1: of things.

77
00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:12,240
Speaker 2: That was going to be my next question.

78
00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,960
Speaker 3: So what happens when we don't, I guess, essentially tell

79
00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,360
Speaker 3: the truth. So, you know, you and I maybe were

80
00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:21,920
Speaker 3: spending a bit of time. You say something that hurts

81
00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:24,760
Speaker 3: or something that offends me, or something that kind.

82
00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,039
Speaker 2: Of rubs me up the wrong way.

83
00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,240
Speaker 3: But because I'm afraid of conflict or I'm afraid it

84
00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:34,880
Speaker 3: will ruin the relationship, I don't say anything, and I

85
00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:36,920
Speaker 3: kind of I take it on the chin or I

86
00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,159
Speaker 3: you know, I swallow, I swallow the offense or whatever

87
00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,440
Speaker 3: it was. What happens, I guess, and especially if we

88
00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,479
Speaker 3: start doing it in many other ways. So you're doing

89
00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,320
Speaker 3: it at work, you're doing it at home, you're doing

90
00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:50,880
Speaker 3: it with your family, you're doing it with If you

91
00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,680
Speaker 3: start doing a lot more of that way, you could

92
00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:54,760
Speaker 3: say something and say.

93
00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,480
Speaker 2: Hey, actually, you know that was a bit hurtful though

94
00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,360
Speaker 2: that kind of you know, offended me. But when you

95
00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:01,120
Speaker 2: don't do that.

96
00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,760
Speaker 3: What happens, especially when we think about kind of this

97
00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,440
Speaker 3: hierarchy of needs, right, there's a chysical safety right at

98
00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,599
Speaker 3: the bottom that needs to feel physically safe, but in

99
00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,200
Speaker 3: the middle kind of once we've dealt with that before

100
00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,719
Speaker 3: we deal with our visualization, psychological safety is in the middle.

101
00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,720
Speaker 3: And so what does that mean for psychological safety when

102
00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,120
Speaker 3: we don't we don't speak. You just kind of swallow

103
00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,159
Speaker 3: it or whatever, brush it aside, compartmentalize it, whatever it is,

104
00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,239
Speaker 3: but you don't acknowledge it, you don't share the truth.

105
00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:38,960
Speaker 1: Sure, I think it's a fair consideration to say we

106
00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,600
Speaker 1: don't want to switch the small stuff. You don't want

107
00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,600
Speaker 1: every interaction to become a confessional, you know, where there's

108
00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:51,520
Speaker 1: that hyper vigilance and hypersensitivity to everything. So we do

109
00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,359
Speaker 1: want to cut each other some slack. As human beings,

110
00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,720
Speaker 1: there is space to say, Okay, there might be a

111
00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,840
Speaker 1: hit and miss here and there. However, the question becomes

112
00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:13,080
Speaker 1: have you reflected on it and come to a resolution

113
00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,719
Speaker 1: that says, okay, maybe this is not such a big deal.

114
00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,480
Speaker 1: And sometimes we'll start off with that sense of I

115
00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,320
Speaker 1: don't want to nitpick everything. I don't want every conversation

116
00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,960
Speaker 1: to become a confessional. However, once it becomes a pattern,

117
00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,960
Speaker 1: you want to be aware of the extent to which

118
00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,440
Speaker 1: you are avoiding something that's not sitting well with you.

119
00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,560
Speaker 4: Is it really are you really letting it go? Or

120
00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:47,760
Speaker 4: are you merely allowing it to brood or to fester?

121
00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,120
Speaker 4: I think that's the right word, aha.

122
00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,440
Speaker 1: In which case it then introduces a different dynamic to

123
00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,880
Speaker 1: the relationship. Releasing it means it's gone, we are on

124
00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:03,640
Speaker 1: a clean slate, whereas allowing it to fester means instead

125
00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:08,039
Speaker 1: of enhancing this relationship, it starts to erode it, it

126
00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:13,040
Speaker 1: starts to introduce a toxicity. This is when silence becomes

127
00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,200
Speaker 1: the silent killer, like a cancer. It starts eating away

128
00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,920
Speaker 1: at your sense of self PEPs and equally the relationship

129
00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,560
Speaker 1: that you have with the person. So slowly and so

130
00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:30,840
Speaker 1: we say, in principle we build, enhance or erode our

131
00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:37,320
Speaker 1: relationship one conversation at a time. So it's about looking

132
00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:42,480
Speaker 1: at what is the impact of this PEPs in the

133
00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,760
Speaker 1: immediate and equally importantly in the long term.

134
00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:46,960
Speaker 4: What does this mean?

135
00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,640
Speaker 3: And so this idea of the things that are left

136
00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,160
Speaker 3: and said that we don't let go of right, So

137
00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,600
Speaker 3: I'm hurt, I'm offended. I don't understand why you said that.

138
00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,320
Speaker 3: Instead of letting it go, I kind of let it faster.

139
00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,920
Speaker 3: I didn't even resent you for it, specially if you

140
00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:03,680
Speaker 3: do it again, because I think, why would couse he.

141
00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:04,280
Speaker 2: Do that again?

142
00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:09,080
Speaker 3: So this idea of the things that we we don't process,

143
00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,560
Speaker 3: that we don't kind of deal with the idea of

144
00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,480
Speaker 3: and something like resentment. We often hear that resentment is corrosive.

145
00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,720
Speaker 3: Is that what you mean about the silent killer? That

146
00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,960
Speaker 3: only one day you're just not speaking to me anymore,

147
00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:24,800
Speaker 3: or I'm not speaking because I'm so upset with.

148
00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:28,160
Speaker 2: You I cut you off. But you had no idea

149
00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:30,160
Speaker 2: I'd been feeling that way.

150
00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:31,760
Speaker 4: Yes, indeed.

151
00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,280
Speaker 1: And and you know, I like, I love the analogy

152
00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:40,040
Speaker 1: of the chip on your wind screen, right that you

153
00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:45,040
Speaker 1: want to attend to it sooner than later, because it's

154
00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,760
Speaker 1: easier to see it with that analogy of the wind screen.

155
00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:54,320
Speaker 1: The crack before it actually you know, spreads all over

156
00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:55,120
Speaker 1: the wind screen.

157
00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:56,760
Speaker 4: Fix it while it's small.

158
00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:01,280
Speaker 1: And it's the same thing that in time, if you

159
00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:06,240
Speaker 1: have not checked with yourself and actually actually released something,

160
00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,960
Speaker 1: it is building up and it means you are carrying it.

161
00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:14,720
Speaker 1: So you are traveling with the suitcase of issues. So

162
00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,880
Speaker 1: that's going to weigh you down, first of all, and

163
00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:23,640
Speaker 1: in doing so, it starts to eat away at the

164
00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,760
Speaker 1: glue that keeps the two of us together. It starts

165
00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:33,920
Speaker 1: to loosen that a cement that stands between you and I,

166
00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:38,080
Speaker 1: which we call that relationship, And slowly but surely, it

167
00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,880
Speaker 1: starts to eat away at the quality of our relationship.

168
00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:47,360
Speaker 1: And therefore that is the underrated or underestimated cost of

169
00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:52,679
Speaker 1: not resolving things. While we are equally saying we are human,

170
00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:57,000
Speaker 1: we are not each other's photocopies that will expect people

171
00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,200
Speaker 1: to say and do exactly what we want them to

172
00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,000
Speaker 1: do their individual in their own right, and therefore there's

173
00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,040
Speaker 1: a space in which we meet each other as human beings. However,

174
00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:09,360
Speaker 1: at those crossroads points where we might have stepped on

175
00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:14,520
Speaker 1: each other's toes, those are moments of reflection on how

176
00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,960
Speaker 1: big is this something I can release or is it

177
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,160
Speaker 1: something that I need to talk about? And sometimes it's

178
00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,960
Speaker 1: worth perhaps saying I acknowledge that this is not sitting

179
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,960
Speaker 1: well with me, and maybe I need to find the

180
00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,320
Speaker 1: right moment when I am in the right moment and

181
00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,680
Speaker 1: the person I need to speak to is in the

182
00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,040
Speaker 1: right way. It is the atmosphere of having that conversation

183
00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,760
Speaker 1: that's equally important. So it doesn't necessarily mean everything is

184
00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,920
Speaker 1: going to be dealt with right now, because you may

185
00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,600
Speaker 1: not be ready emotionally and psychologically. You may be, you know,

186
00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,760
Speaker 1: in a not good space to talk and talk about

187
00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,840
Speaker 1: it in a way that's effective. But rather if you

188
00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,000
Speaker 1: do it in that moment, it might actually compound the

189
00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,240
Speaker 1: issue rather than even resolve it, and create a new

190
00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,680
Speaker 1: issue now when you are actually not even resolving the

191
00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:05,720
Speaker 1: first one to begin with.

192
00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,160
Speaker 3: Right, we have a message from Kingsley and at Jermiston.

193
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:10,880
Speaker 3: He says, good morning, go go and doctor jan And

194
00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,240
Speaker 3: I think men generally speaking, tend to operate on a

195
00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:16,599
Speaker 3: need to know basis, but also as a defense mechanism

196
00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,680
Speaker 3: because of a deep fear of their vulnerability.

197
00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:20,200
Speaker 2: Being used against them.

198
00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,160
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, the same way of thinking is often what hurts

199
00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,440
Speaker 3: us in the most intimate relationships. I have a friend

200
00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,480
Speaker 3: who is skilled at appearing to share a lot, but

201
00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:34,680
Speaker 3: upon careful consideration, you realize that she's actually very guarded.

202
00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:36,240
Speaker 2: That's from Kingsley and Gemstone.

203
00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,120
Speaker 3: So even this kind of the stance we do right

204
00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,480
Speaker 3: where we pretend to be. You know, I'm giving insight

205
00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,280
Speaker 3: into who I am, but actually I've told you nothing.

206
00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,480
Speaker 2: If you really think about it, you go, oh.

207
00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,240
Speaker 3: I actually I don't know what does goods to I

208
00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:52,200
Speaker 3: don't know what is she?

209
00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:53,960
Speaker 2: Who are her friends? I don't know.

210
00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,120
Speaker 3: But it can feel as though you know someone because

211
00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,600
Speaker 3: you chat all the time, your familiarity, but actually they

212
00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:02,760
Speaker 3: haven't told you anything.

213
00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we've kind of created a veneer of visibility

214
00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,800
Speaker 1: and you know things. It makes a very good point

215
00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,760
Speaker 1: that in sharing we are, we are making ourselves visible,

216
00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:21,000
Speaker 1: and therefore we are putting ourselves up for scrutiny, which

217
00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:26,760
Speaker 1: then suggests that we are rendering ourselves vulnerable to judgment

218
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:32,680
Speaker 1: and being found wanting, and which then becomes a risk

219
00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,600
Speaker 1: to the self, the integrity of the self. And therefore

220
00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:42,040
Speaker 1: this is why it kind of is understandable why we

221
00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:48,160
Speaker 1: would on the side of silence, because then I cannot

222
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:52,360
Speaker 1: be judged for what I didn't say. But equally, in

223
00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,000
Speaker 1: not doing that, you know that expression that says, in

224
00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:59,559
Speaker 1: not risking anything, you risk everything. In not doing that, equally,

225
00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:01,640
Speaker 1: there's a there's a there's a price to pay. So

226
00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:06,320
Speaker 1: there's no getting out of Everything comes at a cost,

227
00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,400
Speaker 1: there's a cost to it, and in in rather not

228
00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:16,959
Speaker 1: sharing or rather going into silence, it is about loss aversion,

229
00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:23,920
Speaker 1: which says that the human system is more attuned too

230
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:29,880
Speaker 1: and attends to risk, and it responds it rather if

231
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:34,480
Speaker 1: even not even just a respond reacts to risk because

232
00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,720
Speaker 1: risk is very visceral in that it activates our our

233
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,840
Speaker 1: arousal system, the vigilance system, which is our adrenal system,

234
00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,360
Speaker 1: the curtisol than no etinifrin, right, and and therefore we

235
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:47,000
Speaker 1: are more.

236
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,400
Speaker 4: Attuned to risk.

237
00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:53,720
Speaker 1: And that's why risk aversion has a far more potent

238
00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:59,840
Speaker 1: impact on us rather than the benefit of reward, because

239
00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,120
Speaker 1: that's kind of yeah, that's more that dopamine, the serotonin,

240
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:08,320
Speaker 1: the oxytocin. It's coming, it's congruent, it has continuity with

241
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,120
Speaker 1: how we are on an ordinary day. So therefore the

242
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,800
Speaker 1: tift of it is what we might take for granted.

243
00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,320
Speaker 1: And we are more likely to react to the adrenal system,

244
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,400
Speaker 1: the arousal of that because of the risk that it introduces,

245
00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,080
Speaker 1: and so that lost aversion is much more of a

246
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,240
Speaker 1: jerk to the human system rather than the benefit of reward.

247
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:33,120
Speaker 2: If I'm meeting you know, doctor Janna.

248
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,520
Speaker 3: You remind me of something I read in All About

249
00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,160
Speaker 3: Love by Bell Hooks, and she talks about for many

250
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,200
Speaker 3: of us, we kind of learn to be dishonest and

251
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:45,640
Speaker 3: duplicitus we're not quite young. And she says, for instance,

252
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,320
Speaker 3: men are socialized into kind of being these artful dodges.

253
00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,080
Speaker 3: It's kind of a thing to aspired to be kind

254
00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,440
Speaker 3: of you know, people don't know who you are. It

255
00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,520
Speaker 3: allows them to in some instances have a like a

256
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,120
Speaker 3: sense of power, a puppet master. Right. But she says,

257
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,240
Speaker 3: as children, grown ups tell us to always tell the truth.

258
00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,240
Speaker 3: They tell you not to lie, but then you do

259
00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,680
Speaker 3: tell the truth about you know, maybe a family member

260
00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,520
Speaker 3: that is being abusive, for instance, you tell the truth

261
00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,920
Speaker 3: about something quite serious, and you get into trouble. And

262
00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,240
Speaker 3: she says, and so for many of us, there's this

263
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,200
Speaker 3: kind of shock early on in our lives where we're

264
00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,400
Speaker 3: taught you must always tell the truth, you must always say,

265
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,680
Speaker 3: for instance, how you are feeling. But then you do,

266
00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,800
Speaker 3: and there is this quite very swift sort of backlash

267
00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,840
Speaker 3: to that. And I think that's so interesting, this idea

268
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,120
Speaker 3: that we may feel as if, well, this might be

269
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,760
Speaker 3: a trap. You want me to tell the truth, but

270
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:45,880
Speaker 3: you just want me to end up in trouble, because

271
00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:47,960
Speaker 3: that's you know, to the to the point about this

272
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,040
Speaker 3: kind of risk or trying to manage these risks. Is

273
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,720
Speaker 3: this constant fear from when we are young that if

274
00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,560
Speaker 3: I tell the truth, I'm going to get into trouble.

275
00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,800
Speaker 3: And so even as adults, it feels us though, ay

276
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:05,440
Speaker 3: that we can keep having that kind of mentality that well, yeah,

277
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,400
Speaker 3: you want me to be honest, but if I am,

278
00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:09,040
Speaker 3: what is it going to cost me?

279
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,240
Speaker 2: How is it going to hurt me? How am I

280
00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:12,880
Speaker 2: going to be at a disadvantage?

281
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:13,720
Speaker 4: Yeah?

282
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,240
Speaker 1: And I mean if we if we place that on

283
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,440
Speaker 1: that spectrum. You know, when we talk about our our

284
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:25,000
Speaker 1: our reptilian brain, the three f's of survival, the five flight.

285
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:25,840
Speaker 4: Freeze, and phone.

286
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,760
Speaker 1: You know what you referring to in in Belfhok saying

287
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,960
Speaker 1: we've become duplicitors. It is that phoning where we kind

288
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:38,520
Speaker 1: of need to navigate and appease the situation because in

289
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:45,440
Speaker 1: our socialization and social learning, we have to navigate very

290
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:52,760
Speaker 1: conflicting and contradictory, you know, narratives that we hear. We

291
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,880
Speaker 1: hear one thing and then the consequence becomes the other

292
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:57,240
Speaker 1: and what do we do with this?

293
00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:58,040
Speaker 4: We don't know.

294
00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:03,280
Speaker 1: We are thrust into certain types of dilemmas and costs

295
00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:07,320
Speaker 1: and benefits and rewards and punishments that we navigate, and

296
00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:11,600
Speaker 1: therefore we are constantly kind of in the jungle, you know,

297
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:15,720
Speaker 1: sassing out, scanning for safety, what is safe for me

298
00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:16,920
Speaker 1: to do? Which one?

299
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,360
Speaker 4: Which one do I go with here?

300
00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,959
Speaker 1: And and calculating have to make those calculated costs. And

301
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,320
Speaker 1: that's what we do all the time, you know, even

302
00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,560
Speaker 1: in saying, for example, don't short the small stuff, don't

303
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,720
Speaker 1: pick Every conversation has to be a confessional. There's a

304
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,640
Speaker 1: weighing up in in every interaction. There's a weighing up

305
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:39,000
Speaker 1: of possible avenues in which we can handle act response

306
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,040
Speaker 1: to situations. And it's those calculations. Sometimes, as we say,

307
00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,520
Speaker 1: it's a hit and miss. Sometimes we get it right.

308
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,679
Speaker 1: And there's congruence between your yourself and the other person

309
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,040
Speaker 1: or people that you're with, and we are constantly kind

310
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:58,400
Speaker 1: of trying to calibrate an atmosphere of congeniality between us

311
00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,480
Speaker 1: where there's some form of congruent, which then says we

312
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:02,639
Speaker 1: are of one mind.

313
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:04,000
Speaker 4: And and and and.

314
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,320
Speaker 1: All is well in this relationship. It then serves to

315
00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,040
Speaker 1: enhance the sense of self and the collective relationship that

316
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,120
Speaker 1: we are building with each other. It's not an easy one.

317
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:18,000
Speaker 1: It's never a flat surface because it's always the pieces

318
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,720
Speaker 1: are moving. The ground is always you know, turning and shaking.

319
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,520
Speaker 1: So it's never a stable ground on which we stand

320
00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,400
Speaker 1: and we it is in how we stabilize that ground.

321
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,680
Speaker 1: And and that's the that's the the burden of being

322
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,239
Speaker 1: these social beings. We have to find a way to

323
00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:42,080
Speaker 1: stabilize that ground ourselves, because you know, we are constantly

324
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,800
Speaker 1: destabilizing and stabilizing. So that's the that's the juggle we

325
00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:47,240
Speaker 1: are constantly having to do.

326
00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,240
Speaker 3: Chad on WhatsApp says, as a child, I was always

327
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:55,360
Speaker 3: told to speak when spoken to, so I took the advice.

328
00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,119
Speaker 3: So again I think something there about socialization. Often the

329
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,879
Speaker 3: ways in which we communicates a very cultural they're showed

330
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,239
Speaker 3: by how we grew up, where we grew up, at

331
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,440
Speaker 3: the kind of environment at home. Another one here form

332
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,920
Speaker 3: Jose in Attritable says, I have a question for doctor

333
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,200
Speaker 3: g M in the case where a person is toxic

334
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:21,639
Speaker 3: yet they've projected their toxicity onto others except themselves. So

335
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,160
Speaker 3: even when you try to address it, they become defensive.

336
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:29,000
Speaker 3: How do you handle such a relationship dynamic, which again

337
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:33,439
Speaker 3: I guess would also disincentivize speaking honestly if you're going

338
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:35,600
Speaker 3: to say, you know, googs, I felt like the thing

339
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,040
Speaker 3: you did the other day or just now hurt my feelings,

340
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,879
Speaker 3: and I, you know, say, well, I don't understand why

341
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,160
Speaker 3: you're attacking me or whatever it is, you're not going

342
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,640
Speaker 3: to speak to me. And so how do you handle

343
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,040
Speaker 3: that where someone does become defensive? And is it that

344
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,960
Speaker 3: fight flight freeze fawn response as well? When you become

345
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,000
Speaker 3: defensive and you feel as if you're under attack, is

346
00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,520
Speaker 3: something happening with your retilian brain?

347
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:00,920
Speaker 4: Yeah?

348
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,120
Speaker 1: So I think the first one, you know, speak when

349
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:09,320
Speaker 1: spoken to. These are the narratives that write themselves into us, right,

350
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:14,320
Speaker 1: and we then are kind of surprised and struggle later

351
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,320
Speaker 1: on when we meet ourselves, perhaps in the corporate space

352
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,720
Speaker 1: or in our intimate relationships later on when we struggle

353
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,880
Speaker 1: with these things and we don't kind of know where

354
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,480
Speaker 1: it comes from, and it's in this messaging, this speak

355
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,359
Speaker 1: when spoken to, and what then tends to happen is

356
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,520
Speaker 1: that when we become these kids, these children that speak,

357
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,439
Speaker 1: when we are spoken to, what happens, Oh, we become

358
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,760
Speaker 1: we are reinforced and you know, this is such a

359
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,520
Speaker 1: sweet child. Oh she's such a good child. And therefore

360
00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 1: there's that gets rewarded, and we learn that that's what

361
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:57,720
Speaker 1: makes us good people. And then later on we find

362
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:04,040
Speaker 1: ourselves stuck. And because we've become disincentivized, to your to

363
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:08,600
Speaker 1: your point, to speak up, we find ourselves later on

364
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,720
Speaker 1: stuck because we have not developed the social muscle to

365
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 1: navigate conversation, and because the infrastructure is laid down earlier

366
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,160
Speaker 1: on in our socialization, and we get rewarded for silence,

367
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,880
Speaker 1: and then we find ourselves stuck later on, unable to

368
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,040
Speaker 1: speak up when we are called upon to do so.

369
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 1: And in the second issue, it is, you know, what

370
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,200
Speaker 1: you want to do in in the toxicity and so on,

371
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 1: is to have a conversation in the absence of an

372
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 1: issue that says, to this person, our relationship matters to me,

373
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 1: and there are ways in which there's room for us

374
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:57,320
Speaker 1: to recalibrate and find a way in which we can

375
00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 1: relate to each.

376
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 4: Other better than where we are.

377
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:06,879
Speaker 1: And I would like us to talk about how we

378
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,679
Speaker 1: engage with each other, and for me to be able

379
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 1: to express to you when things are not working, and

380
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:19,399
Speaker 1: in doing so, to assure you of my intention. My

381
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,159
Speaker 1: intention is not to judge you. My intention is not

382
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:26,200
Speaker 1: to criticize you. My intention is not, you know, to

383
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,439
Speaker 1: say that as a person you are less than or

384
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,440
Speaker 1: anything of that nature. It is to say that there

385
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,439
Speaker 1: are certain behaviors that do not work for me and

386
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 1: therefore for our relationship. And what I would like us

387
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 1: to do is to build rather than erode our relationship.

388
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 1: And can we kind of contract with each other that

389
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,120
Speaker 1: when things don't sit well with me, I will tell

390
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,160
Speaker 1: you what they are, and in doing so I will

391
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 1: focus on the behaviors. It is not a criticism of

392
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 1: you as a person. It is behaviors, things that you

393
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,199
Speaker 1: say or do or don't do or don't say that

394
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,880
Speaker 1: do not sit well with me. And in doing so,

395
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 1: it is not a court case. It is not a

396
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 1: guilt finding. It is simply a matter of saying, let

397
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:23,120
Speaker 1: us express, let's be listened to, heard, understood, and validated.

398
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 1: It is not about you know, being the vile villainies

399
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 1: and another person being.

400
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 4: The virtual victim.

401
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:35,160
Speaker 1: It is about about how do we build a relationship

402
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 1: that narishes both of us rather than one at the

403
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 1: expense of the other.

404
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:44,120
Speaker 3: Right, Doctor janet Or, is a great pleasure chatting to you.

405
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for your time.

406
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 4: As always, my absolute pleasure, that is.

407
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,920
Speaker 3: Our residents clinical psychologist doctor Koci Janny joining us for

408
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 3: our psychological wellness conversation. Coming up, we wrap up the

409
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 3: show in the musical no we speak to musician, vocalist,

410
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 3: composer arranger Zawad Yamongo. She will join us tell us

411
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 3: about her beginnings in kz N, her being in the

412
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,439
Speaker 3: music business, and her work as not only an artist

413
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 3: but someone preserving culture and heritage. But of course, because

414
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 3: it is the music corner, there will also be some music.

415
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 3: But first, very busy sporting weekend, so let's check in

416
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 3: with you laters. I Witness New Sport with Anthony Schader