1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:01,040
Speaker 1: You with Clement.

2
00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:04,120
Speaker 2: Let's walk for talk.

3
00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:07,840
Speaker 1: It's twenty five minutes now before eleven o'clock, So let's

4
00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:15,680
Speaker 1: talk about the importance of understanding but also preserving our heritage,

5
00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:20,960
Speaker 1: you know, particularly our heritage sites. And heritage preservation is

6
00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:27,080
Speaker 1: the practice of safeguarding and maintaining cultural, historical, and natural

7
00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,120
Speaker 1: sites so that they can be passed on to future generations.

8
00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,640
Speaker 1: And I wonder what your thoughts are on our state

9
00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:37,960
Speaker 1: of our heritage sites. Do you get a sense that

10
00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,479
Speaker 1: we're preserving them? Do you get a sense that we

11
00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:44,559
Speaker 1: appreciate them? And we're not only talking physical structures like

12
00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:49,520
Speaker 1: monuments and buildings, but living traditions, the languages, the cultural

13
00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,520
Speaker 1: practices that form part of our identity as a society.

14
00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:58,040
Speaker 1: Do you take your children to heritage sites? Do you

15
00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:05,039
Speaker 1: go yourself? How intentional are you about making sure that

16
00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,919
Speaker 1: you allow your children or even yourself, your family members,

17
00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,640
Speaker 1: your friends to understand where this country comes from, to

18
00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,480
Speaker 1: understand where our culture comes from. Because in addition to

19
00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:23,160
Speaker 1: cultural value, heritage serves as an important educational resource. So

20
00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:28,200
Speaker 1: the archives, the monuments, the historical sides, they act as

21
00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:32,119
Speaker 1: living records of human experience and really allows us as

22
00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,320
Speaker 1: people to learn from the past and apply those lessons

23
00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:40,080
Speaker 1: to the present and the future challenges. Joining us now

24
00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,479
Speaker 1: is Ben Moresinger, who is a senior manager for Heritage

25
00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:48,880
Speaker 1: Conservation Management at South African Heritage Resources Agency. Is going

26
00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:50,440
Speaker 1: to guide us through this chat. But I want to

27
00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,560
Speaker 1: hear from you as well. Do you interact with a

28
00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,680
Speaker 1: lot of heritage sides? Do you go? Do you take

29
00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:02,720
Speaker 1: your children there? How intentional are you about just preserving

30
00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:06,520
Speaker 1: this knowledge but also exposing it to the younger people

31
00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,280
Speaker 1: in your family, in your social circle as well. Ben,

32
00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,760
Speaker 1: thank you so much for making time for us. Good morning, Good.

33
00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:15,440
Speaker 3: Morning Ployment, and good morning to your listness.

34
00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,920
Speaker 1: So when we talk about these heritage sites, what executive

35
00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:23,399
Speaker 1: falls into that category and why should ordinary South Africans care?

36
00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,400
Speaker 3: Thank you. So, when we talk about heritage sites in

37
00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:34,840
Speaker 3: South Africa, we are talking about particular spaces, landscapes, buildings,

38
00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:40,040
Speaker 3: structures of significance that have played a role in shaping

39
00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:44,360
Speaker 3: the democratic and constitutional republic that we have today. We

40
00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:48,520
Speaker 3: also talk about sites that carry some kind of memory,

41
00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,079
Speaker 3: whether painful or not, such as the Shop Go massacre.

42
00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,480
Speaker 3: Sites that tell us about where we come from in

43
00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,800
Speaker 3: terms of the struggle of full liberation. We also have

44
00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,280
Speaker 3: sites such as the Castle of Good Hope that tell

45
00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:06,080
Speaker 3: us about our history in terms of colonialism through the

46
00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:10,160
Speaker 3: Dutch and the British. So what heritage does essentially is

47
00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,040
Speaker 3: to create a narrative for the society. It tells us

48
00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,160
Speaker 3: where we come from and it actually binds us all.

49
00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,000
Speaker 3: So whether or not you may find these sites for

50
00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,760
Speaker 3: these spaces important, they play a role in terms of

51
00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,760
Speaker 3: your lived experience as a South African. Another example for

52
00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,800
Speaker 3: is parliament, where you may not see it as something

53
00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,000
Speaker 3: that actively plays a role in your life. However, a

54
00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:39,000
Speaker 3: Part Date was established within parliament in Cape Town and

55
00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,600
Speaker 3: it was abolished within that same parliament, which is that

56
00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,240
Speaker 3: profound effects on every South African, whether you view it

57
00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,800
Speaker 3: as significant or not. So heritage is about creating a

58
00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,480
Speaker 3: narrative for the society that we live in, and in

59
00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,960
Speaker 3: today's society, it's about telling the story of how we've

60
00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:00,000
Speaker 3: gone from colonialism a part Dates to a constitutional democracy.

61
00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,760
Speaker 1: Do you get a sense that a lot of South

62
00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,760
Speaker 1: Africans care about that narrative? They care about you know,

63
00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,640
Speaker 1: coming back to understand that heritage, the important importance of

64
00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:15,040
Speaker 1: these sites and what they represent about where we're going,

65
00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,640
Speaker 1: but also where we come from.

66
00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:23,400
Speaker 3: Yes, I do feel that South Africans do care about it. However,

67
00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,480
Speaker 3: they generally interface with it when it is something that

68
00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:32,400
Speaker 3: is of again national significance. Our given example, so we

69
00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,200
Speaker 3: have Robin Island, which is internationally recognized. There is the

70
00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:40,479
Speaker 3: present cele of former President Mandela. They there is Robert

71
00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,320
Speaker 3: Subuke's house there. It's a very deeply significant site in

72
00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,520
Speaker 3: South Africa and the world. So that is a national

73
00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:51,320
Speaker 3: Heritage site as well as a World Heritage site. Another

74
00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:56,559
Speaker 3: example would be Parliament which unfortunately when it was burnt down,

75
00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,000
Speaker 3: then people realized about the significance of it in terms

76
00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,600
Speaker 3: of heritage, not just as the legislature. And to give

77
00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,640
Speaker 3: a third example, because it's not just sites, there's also

78
00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:12,360
Speaker 3: objects of significance. There's the controversy around the former president

79
00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,160
Speaker 3: Mandela's items which have gone for auction in New York

80
00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,720
Speaker 3: where his prison South he went for auction, his id

81
00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,080
Speaker 3: went for auction, and South Africans then engaged to realize

82
00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,559
Speaker 3: that this is a part of their story too, even

83
00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,880
Speaker 3: though these items belong to a former president. So yes,

84
00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,880
Speaker 3: there's on the one hand and educational aspect to it

85
00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:38,080
Speaker 3: where people visit these sites for education and tourism, but

86
00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,279
Speaker 3: there is also the interface when people when these sites,

87
00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,400
Speaker 3: when people have to confront these sites for whichever reason.

88
00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,880
Speaker 1: There is out there, and because awareness is also important.

89
00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:52,920
Speaker 1: And I'm just wondering, as the Heritage Resources Agency, if

90
00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,960
Speaker 1: you have any programs with schools out there to try

91
00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,560
Speaker 1: and get the children to come, because I mean, I

92
00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,320
Speaker 1: would be and it's more important at that level that

93
00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,720
Speaker 1: children get to visit these places where possible and they

94
00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,920
Speaker 1: can understand the history of this country and at least

95
00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,279
Speaker 1: for us as adults be able to buy books, well,

96
00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,440
Speaker 1: we can read about this. The children can read about

97
00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,120
Speaker 1: it too, but it just helps to help them come out,

98
00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:22,000
Speaker 1: especially the younger generation that's coming out when there's so

99
00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,479
Speaker 1: much that has passed. Are there programs like that where

100
00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,800
Speaker 1: children are and maybe partnerships with schools as well.

101
00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,080
Speaker 3: Thank you. That's a wonderful question. So there is an

102
00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,760
Speaker 3: entity called the National Heritage Council, which is our sister

103
00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,800
Speaker 3: entity under the Department of Sports, Arts and Culture, and

104
00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,960
Speaker 3: they have a problem a program called Heirshop where they

105
00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:48,839
Speaker 3: invite schools to participate in heritage. They have competitions talking

106
00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:53,120
Speaker 3: about heritage with as said Sarah. We have recently launched

107
00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,599
Speaker 3: the Know Your Heritage Schools road Show where we will

108
00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,479
Speaker 3: be going to and because you are absolutely correct that

109
00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,800
Speaker 3: it's import ortant to engage people at the primary and

110
00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,960
Speaker 3: maybe even high school level with these sites. It's not

111
00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,040
Speaker 3: just about us who are of advanced age who understand

112
00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,280
Speaker 3: the complexity of the country, but at a very young age,

113
00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,200
Speaker 3: we need to engage those people. So we have launched

114
00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,760
Speaker 3: the Know Your Heritage Schools road Show and we'll be

115
00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,320
Speaker 3: going to various primary schools throughout South Africa to present

116
00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:23,360
Speaker 3: these wonderful resources that we have.

117
00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,480
Speaker 1: Eighteen minutes before eleven outlock you can give us a

118
00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:31,040
Speaker 1: call to during this conversation about the importance of our

119
00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,720
Speaker 1: heritage sides but also the importance of preserving them. You

120
00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,080
Speaker 1: can call on one eight three seven two. Do you

121
00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,160
Speaker 1: go to some of these sites? Do you send your

122
00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,720
Speaker 1: children there, your cousins, your family members. I think it's

123
00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:50,119
Speaker 1: important that we expose them to these heritage sites because

124
00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,600
Speaker 1: they serve as quite an important educational resource. Or maybe

125
00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,120
Speaker 1: you've got your own favorite heritage site that you want

126
00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,040
Speaker 1: to share with us. Why don't you call us or

127
00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,400
Speaker 1: send them on some voice out on seven two seven

128
00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,160
Speaker 1: O two one seven o two. It's seventeen minutes before eleven.

129
00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,640
Speaker 2: You're with Clement manatela seven.

130
00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,160
Speaker 1: Two, fourteen minutes before eleven. Outlock. All right, let's start

131
00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,280
Speaker 1: with your what's Up's coming on? Oh seven two seven

132
00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:14,080
Speaker 1: o two and seven.

133
00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:14,240
Speaker 2: Oh.

134
00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,640
Speaker 1: Okay, before that, what's up? Let's go to some text,

135
00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:23,560
Speaker 1: Colisour says, high Clement, I love those historical sides. However,

136
00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,920
Speaker 1: I do feel that side maintained by private operators out

137
00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:32,520
Speaker 1: priced the ordinary citizens, such as the cango or cave,

138
00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:37,040
Speaker 1: et cetera. Ben, do you just a response to this,

139
00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:42,960
Speaker 1: then the pricing of some of these these heritage sides,

140
00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,920
Speaker 1: Coliso is asked, is indicating here that as much as

141
00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:50,439
Speaker 1: he loves these sides, but those that are maintained by

142
00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,960
Speaker 1: private operators often out price ordinary citizens.

143
00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,640
Speaker 3: No, that's a very valid point and it is something

144
00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,480
Speaker 3: that we have trappled with us. While the challenges that

145
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,000
Speaker 3: private operators do not receive a lot of funding in

146
00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,320
Speaker 3: order to keep these sites Christine and to do the

147
00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,720
Speaker 3: day to day management of these sites. So, for example,

148
00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,320
Speaker 3: the example is using of the Cago Caves, which has

149
00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:21,920
Speaker 3: a private operator, is a provincial heritage site. However, again,

150
00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,640
Speaker 3: because of the fact that these people have to basically

151
00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,800
Speaker 3: maintain and run the site without any extra funding, it

152
00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,880
Speaker 3: does become a bit expensive for the average South African.

153
00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,320
Speaker 3: What I will say though, is that in terms of

154
00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,120
Speaker 3: those that are stage owned, we do make sure that

155
00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,839
Speaker 3: the pricing is such that it is accessible to all

156
00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:42,840
Speaker 3: South Africans.

157
00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,240
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Okay, here's some wts of voice notes that

158
00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:46,000
Speaker 1: have come through.

159
00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:54,520
Speaker 4: High Clement. Clement, we only care about political heritage here

160
00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,160
Speaker 4: in South Africa. What about my heritage as a NA

161
00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,560
Speaker 4: What about my heritage as a vendor person? You know,

162
00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,000
Speaker 4: we don't have museums for that. We don't care about

163
00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:11,839
Speaker 4: the history of the many people from where they are

164
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,280
Speaker 4: and all those and and make you know, a whole

165
00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:21,400
Speaker 4: lot of tourism sites and about our the way South

166
00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:26,800
Speaker 4: Africa is about so many different tribes and languages. You

167
00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,360
Speaker 4: know that that that heritage, we we don't care much

168
00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:34,840
Speaker 4: about it, but were busy advertising political heritage. I don't

169
00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:41,880
Speaker 4: understand any heritage about about all these political things for Monique.

170
00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,959
Speaker 1: All right, thank you so much for your question. Ben.

171
00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,000
Speaker 1: We do have museums that go into you know, different cultures,

172
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:49,360
Speaker 1: don't we?

173
00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,320
Speaker 3: Yes, we do, but it also raises a very valid

174
00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,440
Speaker 3: point and I do respect a question. So the way

175
00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,880
Speaker 3: our heritage management system is set up in South Africa

176
00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,800
Speaker 3: is that we have a national body which is SARAH,

177
00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,920
Speaker 3: that is responsible for the coordination of management at a

178
00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:13,679
Speaker 3: national level. We then have nine provincial heritage authorities and

179
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,920
Speaker 3: then we are also meant to have heritage management happening

180
00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:20,400
Speaker 3: at a local level, which is not happening at South Africa.

181
00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,120
Speaker 3: So individuals such as the gentleman who spoke now is

182
00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,600
Speaker 3: correct in that there is a missing link between the

183
00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:31,840
Speaker 3: heritage of local communities, those who are deep in Limborpo,

184
00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,600
Speaker 3: those who are deep in Buma Langa, who aren't necessarily

185
00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,520
Speaker 3: linked to these grand sites such as Constitution Hell or

186
00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:43,040
Speaker 3: the Union buildings, how do they get their local stories told.

187
00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,679
Speaker 3: So he has a very valid point, and we are

188
00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,280
Speaker 3: working to ensure that all of our provincial authorities are

189
00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:53,040
Speaker 3: fully competent so that the local authorities can also then

190
00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,200
Speaker 3: basically represent the needs of those people who felth fear

191
00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,920
Speaker 3: left out. What I will add though, is that our

192
00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,360
Speaker 3: national estate, meaning all the heritage resources we have in

193
00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:07,360
Speaker 3: South Africa, does strive to be representative of all of

194
00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:12,000
Speaker 3: their ethnicities, including those of the Koi and sun. For example,

195
00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,280
Speaker 3: the Mujaji Monument in Limpopo has been declared as a

196
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,640
Speaker 3: National Heritage Site and we are still looking at other

197
00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,240
Speaker 3: sites as well throughout the country to be representative of

198
00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,480
Speaker 3: all our very very diverse society. But I do take

199
00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,480
Speaker 3: his point in that at a local level, at a

200
00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,520
Speaker 3: small community level, at a rural level, it's very hard

201
00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,560
Speaker 3: to catch heritage recognized because there is various levels of

202
00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,160
Speaker 3: competency of these provincial authorities.

203
00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,800
Speaker 5: Hi Clement and the team. My name is Jane. I

204
00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:49,559
Speaker 5: am a postgraduate archaeology student at the University of Pretoria

205
00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,120
Speaker 5: and as you know, we deal with heritage and I

206
00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,240
Speaker 5: also just want to stress the importance of educating people

207
00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,680
Speaker 5: about pre colonial heritage because we cannot act like history

208
00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,320
Speaker 5: started in this country when settlers came. There are sites

209
00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,520
Speaker 5: such as Marpo goobwere there's the Pokoni Open Air Museum

210
00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:12,480
Speaker 5: and Malanga. There is the Cradle of Humankind. I think

211
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,240
Speaker 5: it's outside Johannesburg, more or less within an hour or two.

212
00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,040
Speaker 5: And I just want to stress the importance of absolutely

213
00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,640
Speaker 5: taking your kids and your families to see these heritage

214
00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:27,280
Speaker 5: sites because it's an act of neocolonialism to pretend that

215
00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,880
Speaker 5: heritage started when the settlers game.

216
00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,800
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, guys, Oh, thank you so much.

217
00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:37,960
Speaker 1: The pre colonial heritage. I've hit the opportunity to visit Mapunguba,

218
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,600
Speaker 1: I've had the opportunity to visit the cradle of humankind

219
00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,480
Speaker 1: and Ben. That's also quite significant, isn't it. It's not

220
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,160
Speaker 1: just about the Abarthdade Museum. Our history doesn't start with

221
00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:49,240
Speaker 1: a barth date or even colonialism.

222
00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,400
Speaker 3: Yes, she's absolutely correct. I think that's a wonderful point

223
00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,640
Speaker 3: that she's making. And again this is why our National

224
00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:01,520
Speaker 3: Estate does include sites such as Makou where the Twana

225
00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,000
Speaker 3: towns such as Cardi Twine, as you say, the creditle

226
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,720
Speaker 3: of humankind. But even further than that, we also are

227
00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,520
Speaker 3: striving to recognize Korean Sunny heritage, a group that has

228
00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,920
Speaker 3: fault left out of the conversation of the dialogue, but

229
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,760
Speaker 3: we have taken steps to also recognize them as the

230
00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,400
Speaker 3: indigenous inhabitants of South Africa, but also the role that

231
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,000
Speaker 3: they played in terms of the frontier wars as well

232
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,480
Speaker 3: as resistance and liberation. But she is absolutely correct that

233
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:34,080
Speaker 3: there were civilizations with in South Africa that pre date colonialism,

234
00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,600
Speaker 3: and it is very important that our conversation starts day.

235
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,440
Speaker 3: So another site which I think tries to tie all

236
00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,360
Speaker 3: of this together is Freedom Park, which tries to tell

237
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:47,200
Speaker 3: the entire narrative of the country from pre colonial times

238
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:48,320
Speaker 3: to the modern days.

239
00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,280
Speaker 1: Tandee, you're calling us from Bramfontine. What are your thoughts?

240
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:55,960
Speaker 2: Good morning, thanks, Clement. I mean, look, this conversation about

241
00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:02,760
Speaker 2: heritage is about remembering. It is a conversation about remembering

242
00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:07,520
Speaker 2: what has been broken and that cannot be repaired. And

243
00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,320
Speaker 2: I think that the approach in this country to remembering

244
00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:16,720
Speaker 2: has always circulated around cold memory, and cold memory that

245
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,720
Speaker 2: does not necessarily fit the community with which some of

246
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,680
Speaker 2: these heritage sites are held. That's why you see things

247
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:30,960
Speaker 2: like destruction. That's why you see things like you know

248
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,520
Speaker 2: whether or not they're funding to preserve these areas. You know,

249
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,840
Speaker 2: the violence in this country is intergenerational. If there was

250
00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:44,320
Speaker 2: a connection to these statues and things that are sitting

251
00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,600
Speaker 2: in our communities, we would preserve them mouth help. We

252
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:50,840
Speaker 2: wouldn't wait for someone else to do it for us,

253
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:56,240
Speaker 2: because they include us. And I think a critical component

254
00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,440
Speaker 2: of this is that there is a lack of mapping

255
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,280
Speaker 2: the typeology of injury in this country. We haven't quite

256
00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,880
Speaker 2: sat and thought about the memory bank of our history,

257
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,200
Speaker 2: and your previous caller I think speaks to that around

258
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:14,040
Speaker 2: other heritage sites. But it's not necessarily about the site.

259
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:19,400
Speaker 2: It's about a multi modal approach of remembering that creates

260
00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:25,800
Speaker 2: hot memory through found through other methods. I mean, the

261
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,800
Speaker 2: Colombians have done this. We see some really interesting things

262
00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:34,400
Speaker 2: being done in Rwanda, and I think it's part of

263
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,280
Speaker 2: how we could bring in the people who have to

264
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:43,840
Speaker 2: live with these sites beyond us, who have some memory

265
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,480
Speaker 2: of our partys, who have some memory of the past,

266
00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:54,680
Speaker 2: right to mobilize political agency and to think about the

267
00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:59,480
Speaker 2: reparations project in a far broader way, because this is

268
00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,200
Speaker 2: something we have ignored. I mean, heritage is a part

269
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:07,439
Speaker 2: of the reparations project completely, modernous countries completely, which is

270
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,879
Speaker 2: why you see, you know, you know, out of the

271
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,080
Speaker 2: Constitutional Court at con Hill, for example, you're finding communities

272
00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,440
Speaker 2: like the Galela campaign and other people who are sleeping

273
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,600
Speaker 2: outside the concord, still waiting for reparations. That's part of

274
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,800
Speaker 2: our memory, that's part of how we repair, and so

275
00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:32,160
Speaker 2: I'd be interested in a more in a fresh approach

276
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,960
Speaker 2: to this topic, a fresh approach to how government approaches

277
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,960
Speaker 2: this thing, involving youth as a critical component of how

278
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,040
Speaker 2: do they want to remember the past. This is why

279
00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:48,159
Speaker 2: we fight about streets, about what we name this versus

280
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,720
Speaker 2: the other thing. And I think that it is a

281
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,440
Speaker 2: part of being very disconnected to the typology of injury

282
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,359
Speaker 2: that that South Africans exist with Tundy.

283
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,240
Speaker 1: Great contribution then, Bramfontin, thank you so much, Ben your

284
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,840
Speaker 1: thoughts on just the multimodal approach of remembering that Tundee

285
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:13,880
Speaker 1: speaks about other methods that we are exploring other than

286
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:18,400
Speaker 1: these specific sides to remembering and preserving that heritage.

287
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,000
Speaker 3: Yes, she makes a very very powerful point because if

288
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,480
Speaker 3: we look at the history of the development of our

289
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:31,280
Speaker 3: own framework for heritage management, it stems from the National

290
00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,760
Speaker 3: Monuments Act, which was the part day we can call

291
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:39,560
Speaker 3: it a Eurocentric approach to memory, which is the statues

292
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,480
Speaker 3: and monuments, et cetera. Whereas as we know as Africans,

293
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:51,280
Speaker 3: a lot of our cultural value is told through through iks,

294
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:56,879
Speaker 3: it's told through intangible cultural heritage, indigenous knowledge systems, et cetera.

295
00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:01,600
Speaker 3: So our heritage framework does very much focus on the tangible.

296
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,040
Speaker 3: We look at the crave for example of Steve Bico,

297
00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:07,720
Speaker 3: and we protect that and we say this is the

298
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,320
Speaker 3: heritage site, whereas we don't look at the broader narrative

299
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,359
Speaker 3: around this contribution to black consciousness because that feels the

300
00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,560
Speaker 3: bit harder for us to capture in a document. So

301
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,760
Speaker 3: she's got a very good point, and we are striving

302
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:26,360
Speaker 3: to basically broaden our approach and even completely overhaul how

303
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:31,040
Speaker 3: we've approached heritage management. But again, nothing exists in a vacuum.

304
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:35,760
Speaker 3: This particular heritage framework that we have did form part

305
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,200
Speaker 3: of the nineteen ninety six constitution. However, we are now

306
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:43,040
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty six, so perhaps it does be everything,

307
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:44,480
Speaker 3: and I think that she is pot on.

308
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, Ben, thank you so much man for joining

309
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,840
Speaker 1: us for this important conversation about just the importance of

310
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:56,119
Speaker 1: preserving but also understanding our heritage sites. Ben Morsinger, Senior

311
00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:02,360
Speaker 1: Manager for Heritage African Heritage Resources Agency,