Speaker 1: In a moment, we're going to be talking about divorce
Speaker 1: and how you can keep the costs down when you're
Speaker 1: going through a divorce or contemplating a divorce, ADMIN can
Speaker 1: be very costly. It's something that not many of us
Speaker 1: factor into a wedding or a breakup, or a birth
Speaker 1: or applying for a passport. There are always ADMIN costs
Speaker 1: associated and sometimes that at those costs are hidden expenses
Speaker 1: which you don't know about. If you've got a question
Speaker 1: on the hidden costs or the unhidden costs of divorce,
Speaker 1: you're welcome to give us a call now and oh
Speaker 1: to one four four six oh five six seven, because
Speaker 1: we're going to be talking to attorney Rene Miller, owner
Speaker 1: of our Miller Attorneys, about the associated costs of divorce. Renee,
Speaker 1: good morning, thanks for joining us on this Sunday morning.
Speaker 2: Good morning, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: How expensive is it to get divorced?
Speaker 2: Well, I think ultimately they seen so hugely dependent on
Speaker 2: the proceedings in that being either whether it's contested or
Speaker 2: uncontested divorce, meaning if it's uncontested, ideally both parties are
Speaker 2: in agreement with the divorce and everything becomes a lot simpler.
Speaker 2: It could ultimately estimate if you're working with an attorney
Speaker 2: at a fee of about fifteen thousand rand as opposed
Speaker 2: to a contested divorce where the parties are at loggerheads
Speaker 2: and not necessarily in agreement with various items, and there's
Speaker 2: a back and forth in exchange of correspondence around various
Speaker 2: issues of dispute, and it estimates it about between thirty
Speaker 2: thousand rand to one hundred and fifty thousand Rand. So
Speaker 2: the costs can escalate quite quickly as legal fees can
Speaker 2: become quite expensive.
Speaker 1: Wow, that is expensive. I mean I knew that. I
Speaker 1: know that admin fees and processing fees and all that
Speaker 1: kind of thing can add up. When when you're starting
Speaker 1: to get up to the number of one hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty thousand, that is a lot of money for a.
Speaker 2: Breakup one hundred percent. And so it does rest on
Speaker 2: the complexity of the divorce proceedings, as ultimately a divorce
Speaker 2: could last between two or three years, you know that's contested,
Speaker 2: just depending on how quickly parties really want to come
Speaker 2: to terms and reach some type of settlement that usually
Speaker 2: would narrow down the costs. But if parties continue to
Speaker 2: see themselves in dispute and we've got to go to
Speaker 2: trial on various aspects, then the costs do escalate.
Speaker 1: Renee. What's the first thing somebody should do if their
Speaker 1: partner files for divorce, Well, the first.
Speaker 2: Thing is please never ignore when receiving a divorce summons. Ultimately,
Speaker 2: if you're going to receive that summons, you're going to
Speaker 2: receive it from the Sheriff of the court, who's going
Speaker 2: to serve it personally on you and explain the nature
Speaker 2: of the proceedings. What you then have to do is
Speaker 2: you've got to realize that you've got ten court days.
Speaker 2: And what it means when I say court days is
Speaker 2: that court days does not incorporate a public holiday or weekend.
Speaker 2: So those court days you've got is ten, and you've
Speaker 2: got to file your notice of intention to defend within
Speaker 2: those ten court days, and in the event that you
Speaker 2: fail to do that, it does mean that the court
Speaker 2: sees the proceedings as one that is uncontested or not defended,
Speaker 2: and very much will then proceed on the basis that, look,
Speaker 2: you know, the defendant is not interested in the proceedings.
Speaker 2: We may move for a court order on the basis
Speaker 2: in terms of what the plaintiff, meaning the person who's
Speaker 2: filed for divorce what they've asked for in the papers.
Speaker 2: So it's very important that you take note of the
Speaker 2: summons that you're receiving and you actually defend it.
Speaker 1: Well, now we've got a lessener asking about the comment
Speaker 1: you made about how the cost of divorce can get
Speaker 1: up to one hundred thousand plus, saying who is getting
Speaker 1: the hundred or who is taking the one hundred thousand rand?
Speaker 2: So your points an attorney who will legally represent you,
Speaker 2: and you're paying your attorney fees, so that is the
Speaker 2: person you're playing is your attorney. So various attorneys, they
Speaker 2: costs very depending on the hourly rate. So one attorney
Speaker 2: might charge you one thousand and one an hour and
Speaker 2: a different one might charge you one thousand and nine hundred,
Speaker 2: valling on level of experience as well. Those things do
Speaker 2: come into play.
Speaker 1: And often I think people when it's very acrimonious, want
Speaker 1: to outdo one another with the best attorney, and I
Speaker 1: suppose assign cost to that process.
Speaker 2: Quite correct, Yes, quite correct, Renee.
Speaker 1: Is it possible to do a DIY divorce and keep
Speaker 1: the costs down?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, It's very possible. A lot of people ask me
Speaker 2: that question and the answer one hundred percent years. And
Speaker 2: you can approach the court in the area where you reside,
Speaker 2: right and you can go and speak to the clerk
Speaker 2: of the divorce court about the process for doing a
Speaker 2: DIY divorce. They're extremely helpful, so you'll sit down with them.
Speaker 2: They'll take you through the procedural requirements and the documents
Speaker 2: that you might require, which would ideally just be coming
Speaker 2: along with your marriage certificate and your identity document as
Speaker 2: the first means of initiating the process. Once you've sat
Speaker 2: down with the clerk of the court, what will then
Speaker 2: happen is they'll assist you in filling out the paperwork
Speaker 2: for formulating the summons and then you, as the person
Speaker 2: initiating the divorce again refer to as the plaintiff or
Speaker 2: then be required to serve that summons on the defendant,
Speaker 2: which is your spouse that you are divorcing. And remember
Speaker 2: that when you do the DIY divorce, your coughs then
Speaker 2: in a DIY divorce is going to be really just
Speaker 2: the payment of the sheriff of the court. So those
Speaker 2: costs estimate between about eight hundred to two thousand rand,
Speaker 2: which is which might be the only costs that you
Speaker 2: face when you do a DIY divorce. One thing that
Speaker 2: I will say our work from the back end when
Speaker 2: doing divorce proceedings where I see people make so many
Speaker 2: errors and as a result of a DIY divorce, The
Speaker 2: best possible advice that I can give someone doing a
Speaker 2: divorce of that nature is just at one point in
Speaker 2: the proceedings, consult with an attorney to take you through
Speaker 2: the consequences of the divorce so that you understand the
Speaker 2: type of matrimonial system that you've entered into and what
Speaker 2: are the consequences and what your rights are in terms
Speaker 2: of the type of matrimonial system that you've entered into.
Speaker 1: I want to pick up on that Renee hold on
Speaker 1: one moment. If you're listening to this conversation. My guest
Speaker 1: is Renee Meller at and owner of our Miller Attorneys,
Speaker 1: and we're talking about the costs associated with divorce and
Speaker 1: what you need to know if this is a process
Speaker 1: that you are currently going through or contemplating, and you're
Speaker 1: welcome to send questions to renown seven to five six
Speaker 1: seven one five six seven. We were just talking about
Speaker 1: what sort of type of marriage you might be in
Speaker 1: and what might be associated with getting divorce? How does
Speaker 1: that work? Renee? What sort of different things are involved.
Speaker 2: So you when you marry someone without entering into any
Speaker 2: type of agreement, the in South African law, by default,
Speaker 2: it means that you're married in community of property. And
Speaker 2: ultimately the three matrimonial systems that stand out would be
Speaker 2: one that is in community of property, one that is
Speaker 2: out of community of property where you have an anti
Speaker 2: natural contracting place, and then there's one that is out
Speaker 2: of community of property subject to the accrual system, so
Speaker 2: your anti natural contact incorporates in a cruel system. So
Speaker 2: ideally those are the three standout matrimonial regimes. There are
Speaker 2: things in our law in South African law that relates
Speaker 2: to customary marriages as well, and so you you must
Speaker 2: be careful as to or not careful, but really do
Speaker 2: understand the type of matrimonial system that you're entering into
Speaker 2: when you marry someone.
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about that sort of cultural the differences
Speaker 1: in cultural and religious marriages, because there's been a movement
Speaker 1: in legislation in this regard. Can you update us.
Speaker 2: Yes, one hundred percent. So when it comes to customary marriages,
Speaker 2: per say, in terms of the Act, the Recognition of
Speaker 2: Customary Marriages Act, it does say that there are various
Speaker 2: requirements that must be satisfied, and there's been recent case
Speaker 2: law to say that when you're marrying someone subject to
Speaker 2: a polygamous marriage, you ultimately, if you're taking a second wife,
Speaker 2: you need to make sure that you're obtaining the permission
Speaker 2: of the High Court when it comes to the type
Speaker 2: of matrimonial system that you're entering into with the second wife.
Speaker 2: It's so important that that must be done. It's a requirement. Ultimately,
Speaker 2: what it means is then you'd be faced with the
Speaker 2: reality of with the second wife, how it's going to
Speaker 2: impact her in terms of the in the event that
Speaker 2: they divorce, what assets she is going to be entitled to. Also,
Speaker 2: what's important to make mention of is that there is
Speaker 2: a new law that is you know, you know, being
Speaker 2: tabled in Parliament that speaks to the recognition or the
Speaker 2: let me say, the consolidation of three existing laws, which
Speaker 2: it will be named the Marriage All. It is named
Speaker 2: the Marriage's Ball at this present moment in time, and
Speaker 2: what it will do is consolidate is three existing acts,
Speaker 2: which would be the Marriage Act. Then as well as
Speaker 2: the recognition of a Customary Marriage Act as well as
Speaker 2: the Civil Unions Act. So what that would do in
Speaker 2: our law is that it would create a single and
Speaker 2: inclusive legal framework that accommodates for South Africa's diverse cultural
Speaker 2: and religious and social practices, which is going to be fantastic.
Speaker 2: But at this point it's still able. It's not past,
Speaker 2: but it is definitely in the making.
Speaker 1: We have a listener in a who says I found
Speaker 1: FAMCA very helpful when getting my divorce. If you approach
Speaker 1: FAMSA for assistance with divorce, are they still costs associated?
Speaker 2: Fanswer does come with costs, yes, and and FAMCA is wonderful.
Speaker 2: We use them a lot in terms of when we're
Speaker 2: talking about mediating in divorce, because what that would mean
Speaker 2: is to be a registered mediator that will sit down.
Speaker 2: That's that's a neutral party sitting down with both parties
Speaker 2: in the divorce process and trying to mediate and resolve
Speaker 2: the most contentious issues of the divorce in order to
Speaker 2: help them achieve some type of settlement agreement.
Speaker 1: We haven't even touched RENEE on what divorce, how the
Speaker 1: costs might be impacted of a divorce when they are
Speaker 1: children involved, and then there are maintenance agreements that need
Speaker 1: to come into play and parenting agreements that need to
Speaker 1: be put in place. How does that all work?
Speaker 2: So how that works is when they or minor children
Speaker 2: that are involved in divorce proceedings. The reality is that
Speaker 2: there's no doubt about the fact that the kids are
Speaker 2: going to be affected, and so the court ultimately is
Speaker 2: only concerned about first and foremost the minor children and
Speaker 2: their best interest. No divorce is going to go through
Speaker 2: without the stamp of approval of the family Advocate, right,
Speaker 2: and that the Family Advocates office is it's sort of
Speaker 2: governed by the Act to the extent of saying that
Speaker 2: the best interest of the minor children. Children will always
Speaker 2: be of highest priority. So whether it be in the
Speaker 2: High court that you're divorcing or in the regional court,
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. The family Advocate needs to give their
Speaker 2: stamp of approval to say we can see that the
Speaker 2: kids or the child is being cared for.
Speaker 1: Is it pard and parcel of the same process or
Speaker 1: is it a separate process the divorce So it all
Speaker 1: plays into the same process.
Speaker 2: Yes, and it's not to say that it's going to
Speaker 2: impact the costs. But when you're divorcing with kids involved,
Speaker 2: you generally would incorporate a document called a parenting plan
Speaker 2: into the divorce s freed proceedings, as it might be
Speaker 2: so helpful just to deal with all those aspects in
Speaker 2: one document, as opposed to having a separate parenting plan.
Speaker 2: That is, it's quite a lengthy document, but it incorporates
Speaker 2: all the aspects when it comes to the living arrangements
Speaker 2: of the minor children. Who's going to be the primary
Speaker 2: caider way are the kids going to primarily reside? Is
Speaker 2: it with mom or with dad? And then who's going
Speaker 2: to have a reasonable contact with the kids to the
Speaker 2: extent of how often do I see the kids? Do
Speaker 2: I see them every weekend if we alternate week in,
Speaker 2: or is it going to be the existence of shade
Speaker 2: care between mom and dad, so that being kids live
Speaker 2: with mom for one week and then alternatively swapt to
Speaker 2: dad for the next week.
Speaker 1: We've got two accounts on the White Upline of people
Speaker 1: that are doing it themselves. One saying, as it was
Speaker 1: not a contested divorce, a friend went to the court
Speaker 1: by himself, did everything, is not a lawyer and his
Speaker 1: wife did not go and another saying a friend of
Speaker 1: mine is in the process of divorce. She'd been married
Speaker 1: for forty four years in community of property. Her divorce
Speaker 1: will be finalized on the fifteenth of August, uncontested. She's
Speaker 1: doing it through the quarter. Cost was two hundred Can
Speaker 1: that be right? Two hundred, Yes, it.
Speaker 2: Can be right. Remember I said to you, when it
Speaker 2: comes to the sheriff of the court, it very so
Speaker 2: the sheriff will give you a quotation and say to
Speaker 2: you it's going to cost me either two hundred gen,
Speaker 2: eight hundred jen or one thousand and five hundred ten
Speaker 2: to serve the summons on the defendant, So that that
Speaker 2: is a cost that is valuable to the Sheriff of
Speaker 2: the court.
Speaker 1: What are some of the hidden Costnay, that people may
Speaker 1: not expect.
Speaker 2: I don't necessarily, I wouldn't like to think of it
Speaker 2: as hidden costs, because when you engage the services of
Speaker 2: an attorney, they'll provide you with the quotation, and they'll
Speaker 2: provide you with a mandate which is very detailed in
Speaker 2: terms of what the costs are going to be when
Speaker 2: you engage in the proceedings.
Speaker 1: So maybe just things like going to home affairs to
Speaker 1: get your ID in your new surname your unmarried.
Speaker 2: Surname very important, yes, correct. And also when you when
Speaker 2: you've completed the divorce process, remember to go to home
Speaker 2: affairs with your de order to update the system so
Speaker 2: that you are reflected as divorced.
Speaker 1: Renee, what are the current statistics of divorce in our country?
Speaker 1: Do you know?
Speaker 2: I think they are fairly high. And the reason why
Speaker 2: I say that is engage it on my practice. If
Speaker 2: I look at in a in the space of a month,
Speaker 2: I picked up at least three or four divorces in
Speaker 2: the space of a month.
Speaker 1: So and is that more than previously or is it
Speaker 1: sort of yes? OK, so you would say that there's
Speaker 1: still an increasing number of people getting divorced. Yes, absolutely, Wow,
Speaker 1: that's so interesting, Renee. Anything else that our listeners should
Speaker 1: know about a divorce, be it a DIY divorce or
Speaker 1: a divorce through lawyers.
Speaker 2: I think the best possible advice that I can give
Speaker 2: anyone in divorce proceedings is please remember that when you're
Speaker 2: signing a content paper, that document is legally binding. It's
Speaker 2: a contractual agreement between yourself and your expouse to be,
Speaker 2: and once the terms of that consent paper has been
Speaker 2: made an order of court. It weighs heavy. Take the time,
Speaker 2: if you're doing a DIY divorce to consult with an
Speaker 2: attorney so that they can explain the legal consequences to you.
Speaker 2: Because in the event it's made an order of court
Speaker 2: and now you have to live out the terms of
Speaker 2: that consent paper. Now you feel the force and effect
Speaker 2: of it and go I don't necessarily agree with it.
Speaker 2: It is very difficult and very costly to approach the
Speaker 2: court to vary the order.
Speaker 1: Renee Mellow, how can people get in touch with you
Speaker 1: if they'd like to do so.
Speaker 2: I have a website it's called our Miller Attorneys. They
Speaker 2: can reach out to me there. I'll have a TikTok
Speaker 2: account which is renamed Illegal. We are often post advice
Speaker 2: on divorces and very a large number of other legal
Speaker 2: aspects as well, for just quick tips.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us on this Sunday morning.
Speaker 1: That's Renee Miller, attorney and owner of our Melo Attorneys.
Speaker 1: And as you heard there, she's got a website and
Speaker 1: you can even reach out to her on TikTok.