WEBVTT - How to Stay Published with Ber Carroll

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<v Speaker 1>It's really hard to stop writing, isn't it? In some way,

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<v Speaker 1>it's really hard to stop. It can be hard to

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<v Speaker 1>do it when you need to do it as well,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's hard to stop doing it when you love it.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think once you hold on to that, you

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<v Speaker 1>never really know what's going to happen.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to Rights for Women, a podcast all about celebrating

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<v Speaker 2>women's voices and supporting women writers.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Pamela Cook, women's fiction author, writing teacher, mentor and podcaster.

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<v Speaker 2>Before beginning today's chat, I would like to acknowledge and

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<v Speaker 2>pay my respects to the Durra Wal People, the traditional

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<v Speaker 2>custodians of the land on which this podcast is being recorded,

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<v Speaker 2>along with the traditional owners of the land throughout Australia

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<v Speaker 2>and a quick reminder that there could be strong language

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<v Speaker 2>and adult concepts discussed in this podcast. So please be

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<v Speaker 2>aware of this. If you have Children around,

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<v Speaker 2>let's relax on the convo couch and chat to this

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<v Speaker 2>week's guest.

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<v Speaker 2>Hi, everyone, Pam here, welcome to another episode of rights

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<v Speaker 2>for women. It is April 30 as I record this,

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<v Speaker 2>and today we have a great chat with Be Carroll

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<v Speaker 2>all about her new book,

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<v Speaker 2>One of us is missing. It's a fantastic book that

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<v Speaker 2>I really enjoyed and had such a great time talking

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<v Speaker 2>to be about. It's a crime thriller, but kind of

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<v Speaker 2>on the softer end of the thriller genre and really

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<v Speaker 2>includes a lot of family drama. There's a lot of secrets.

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<v Speaker 2>There's so much tension. It's a real page turner. So

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<v Speaker 2>it was fantastic to talk to be about her new release.

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<v Speaker 2>But also there's a lot of talk in here about

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<v Speaker 2>her experiences over 20 years as a published author

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<v Speaker 2>and but kind of downsides of that, too, in terms

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<v Speaker 2>of what happens when you are out of contract and

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<v Speaker 2>the publisher doesn't pick you up for another book. How

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<v Speaker 2>Burr has actually managed to navigate that in over 20

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<v Speaker 2>years of publishing and really just kind of reinventing herself

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<v Speaker 2>at different points, staying the distance, continuing to write, which

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<v Speaker 2>is just the important thing that really comes out of

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<v Speaker 2>this conversation, I think is just

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<v Speaker 2>the importance of writing for the love of it and

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<v Speaker 2>writing the next book and just being optimistic and thinking, OK,

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<v Speaker 2>what can I do next? Where can I go? Who

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<v Speaker 2>might be interested in publishing this book. Will I publish

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<v Speaker 2>it myself? There's a whole lot of options now, as

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<v Speaker 2>we know in terms of publishing.

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<v Speaker 2>So it was really great to chat to be and

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<v Speaker 2>to hear her experiences in this kind of area, And, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>it was really optimistic. I thought, uh, lots of chat

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<v Speaker 2>in there about how to stay published, but also lots

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<v Speaker 2>of chat in there about the new book one of

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<v Speaker 2>us is missing.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not gonna go on too long in this introduction.

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<v Speaker 2>This is quite a long episode. We did have a

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<v Speaker 2>few Internet glitches, so there's in places, some very minor

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<v Speaker 2>little glitches with the video and with the audio, but

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<v Speaker 2>they're super minor. So do keep listening, because there is

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<v Speaker 2>so much gold for both readers and writers in this episode,

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<v Speaker 2>I also wanted to flag that I'll be taking a

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<v Speaker 2>break for the next two weeks after this episode, there

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<v Speaker 2>won't be any new rights for women episodes, so that

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<v Speaker 2>means you'll be able to catch up on any of

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<v Speaker 2>the fabulous episodes from this year or from the previous years,

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<v Speaker 2>and the backlist that you may have missed uh, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>taking a break because apart from being extraordinarily busy with

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<v Speaker 2>writing

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<v Speaker 2>and everything else, I'm just taking the two weeks off

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<v Speaker 2>because next week I'm going to the stock horse Nationals

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<v Speaker 2>in Tamworth to do a little bit of hanging out

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<v Speaker 2>with my daughter and son in law as they ride there.

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<v Speaker 2>And also mind the grand boys. So I'll be, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>doing some family things, but also writing while I'm up

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<v Speaker 2>there and getting the workshops all ready for the next

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<v Speaker 2>chapter retreat, which is happening in

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<v Speaker 2>two weeks time from today. I can't believe it. I've

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<v Speaker 2>got 12 fabulous writers coming on the retreat, and, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>I really have a lot of work to do to

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<v Speaker 2>get ready for that. So won't be in your ears.

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<v Speaker 2>Won't be seeing you on YouTube for the next couple

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<v Speaker 2>of weeks, but stay tuned for what's coming up next.

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<v Speaker 2>After that, we have a great interview with Mary Lou

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<v Speaker 2>Stevens interviewing Julie Bennett about her new book, The Lost

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<v Speaker 2>Letters of Rose Carey. And also Mayor Linnell will be

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<v Speaker 2>coming up in June, talking to Katherine Centre

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<v Speaker 2>about her new book, The ROM Comma. Hope that you're

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<v Speaker 2>really enjoying the podcast. If you are as always, it

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<v Speaker 2>would be fantastic. If you can leave some reviews, it

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<v Speaker 2>just means that more people will get to hear about

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<v Speaker 2>the podcast. It pushes the S in the rankings and, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>shout out again to all the people following along on

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<v Speaker 2>the diary of a procrastinator for patreon

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<v Speaker 2>that is, uh, rolling along behind the scenes. And I'm

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<v Speaker 2>putting out about three very short videos a week to

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<v Speaker 2>the Patreon family supporters talking about my writing process, the

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<v Speaker 2>obstacles that I'm finding and how I'm overcoming them, and

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<v Speaker 2>any of the things I'm doing to push the new

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<v Speaker 2>novel forward. So Diary of a Procrastinator You can sign

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<v Speaker 2>up for that $5 a week at rights for Women.com/patreon.

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<v Speaker 2>So now on to the chat with be See You

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<v Speaker 2>in a couple of weeks,

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<v Speaker 2>be Carroll. Welcome to the rights for women convo Couch.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you, pal. It's really lovely to be here. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think it has been on your convo couch before.

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<v Speaker 1>I

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<v Speaker 2>know it's amazing, and of course it's a virtual couch,

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<v Speaker 2>but we actually caught up a little while ago. I

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<v Speaker 2>think it was at Maxine Fawcett's launch for everything is perfect.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that was when I last saw you.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, it was a

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<v Speaker 1>really memorable

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<v Speaker 2>evening. Yeah, it was fabulous. And of course, we're so

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<v Speaker 2>lucky that we get to go to all these brilliant launches.

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<v Speaker 2>And very soon it is going to be your launch

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<v Speaker 2>for this fantastic book that I can't wait to tell

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<v Speaker 2>everyone about. One of us is missing

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<v Speaker 2>so much in here be that I want to talk

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<v Speaker 2>to you about and also just about your whole publishing

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<v Speaker 2>career in general because I feel like you are such

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<v Speaker 2>an inspiration and there's writers out there who are going

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<v Speaker 2>to be tuning in and I think are going to

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<v Speaker 2>learn so much from this conversation because you've been around

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<v Speaker 2>for a while now in the publishing industry, as have I.

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<v Speaker 2>And there's so many things I want to chat to

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<v Speaker 2>you about.

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<v Speaker 1>I hope I can answer those questions when I look

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<v Speaker 1>back on. I think it's 20 years of being published

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<v Speaker 1>and just as confused as ever. But I think I'll

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<v Speaker 1>be able to provide some insight.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's go back in time be Let's start, First of all,

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<v Speaker 2>with

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<v Speaker 2>when was the time that you thought I really want

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<v Speaker 2>to write a book or I want to be a writer.

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<v Speaker 2>Are you someone who has written all your life, as

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<v Speaker 2>many authors are, or did it come to you later

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<v Speaker 2>in life?

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<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't say that I was somebody who wrote all

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<v Speaker 1>my life, but I really I've read all my life.

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<v Speaker 1>I've been an absolutely compulsive reader. Have to always have

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<v Speaker 1>a book with me,

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<v Speaker 1>can eat a meal without reading At the same time.

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<v Speaker 1>When I was a kid, I was always missing whenever

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<v Speaker 1>anything needed to be done. I was in a far

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<v Speaker 1>corner of the house reading a book, so I was

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<v Speaker 1>a real bookworm, and I think in the back of

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<v Speaker 1>my head I always wanted to write a book. And

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<v Speaker 1>as soon as I finished

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<v Speaker 1>university and I guess had a proper job, that's when

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<v Speaker 1>I started writing and I. I didn't think it would

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<v Speaker 1>end up here, but in my head I thought I'd

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<v Speaker 1>like to write one book. I'll get it out of

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<v Speaker 1>my system and then I'll move on with my life.

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<v Speaker 1>And as you and I know well,

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<v Speaker 1>writing isn't that simple. It's very addictive, and it's very

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<v Speaker 1>hard to stop at just one.

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<v Speaker 2>Definitely. So that book that you first wrote was that

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<v Speaker 2>an idea that you'd had brewing in your head for

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<v Speaker 2>some time and you thought, Yeah, I really want to

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<v Speaker 2>get this story out. Or was it like you made

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<v Speaker 2>the decision to write a book and then started thinking

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<v Speaker 2>about What is it that I want to write?

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<v Speaker 1>I had made that decision. I wanted to write a

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<v Speaker 1>book and I had recently arrived in in Sydney, and

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<v Speaker 1>I guess that was a big life change for me.

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<v Speaker 1>Going from a very rural part of Ireland. I grew

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<v Speaker 1>up in Blarney, as in Blarney Castle.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a tiny village outside of Cork City, which is

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<v Speaker 1>a small city in Ireland, which is not a big

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<v Speaker 1>place to arrive into Sydney in the in the mid

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<v Speaker 1>19 nineties. It was a fairly drastic change, and it

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<v Speaker 1>was a really exciting time here, and I got a

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<v Speaker 1>job in a multinational IT company with some very interesting people.

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<v Speaker 1>There were some really interesting people I was working with,

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<v Speaker 1>and I thought to myself,

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my God, this is what I'll write. A book

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<v Speaker 1>about an Irish girl coming to Sydney and getting a

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<v Speaker 1>job in an IT company, I. I threw in a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit of fraud, and but when I look back,

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<v Speaker 1>I think half the people who purchased that book purchased

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<v Speaker 1>it to see if they were actually in it. My

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<v Speaker 1>Exco and I completely denied it was way about me,

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<v Speaker 1>but of course it was

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<v Speaker 1>completely. But I can assure everyone now, being 20 years along,

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<v Speaker 1>I no longer write books. I do write them a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit about sometimes things that happen to me, but

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<v Speaker 1>they're no longer quite as blatantly based in my own

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<v Speaker 1>life as one point. I think a lot of books

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<v Speaker 1>are like that. I think that's how they start.

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<v Speaker 2>Definitely. So. The first book was that executive affair.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, that was

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<v Speaker 1>executive pair. Even the title makes me cringe.

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<v Speaker 1>It was so much a product of its time. Like

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<v Speaker 1>on the front cover, the girl is wearing a white

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<v Speaker 1>suit pants that is such a product, it's not.

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<v Speaker 2>But that was the thing. And that is the thing

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<v Speaker 2>with publishing, isn't it? There's trends. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and at the time Everyone was really proud of that cover.

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<v Speaker 1>They loved it. They loved it. Initially in Ireland they

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<v Speaker 1>saw the Australian cover and like, drawn or cover because

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<v Speaker 1>we need to have that cover. That cover is amazing.

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<v Speaker 1>And now I'm looking at the cover and I'm like, Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>my God, it's so dated looking at them.

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<v Speaker 2>So that was 12 books ago, wasn't it? Be because

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<v Speaker 2>I think one of us is missing is your 12th book. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So when was the executive affair published?

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<v Speaker 1>That was published in 2004. So exactly 20 years ago.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, you've definitely been doing this longer than me.

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<v Speaker 2>My first book was published 2012.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow. OK, OK, so what genre would you say? Executive

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<v Speaker 2>affair is. At

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<v Speaker 1>the time, it was labelled women's fiction and a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of us had issues with that label. I think at

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<v Speaker 1>the time, because there was no such thing as men fiction.

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<v Speaker 1>Today we would just say contemporary fiction. But in in truth,

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<v Speaker 1>there was elements in executive affair that were quite crime.

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<v Speaker 1>There was a corporate fraud essentially in the book, and

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<v Speaker 1>in my second book, there was also a crime and

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<v Speaker 1>in my third book was probably

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<v Speaker 1>more women's fiction and my fourth. But there were crimes. Actually,

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<v Speaker 1>there was somebody stabbed to death in my fourth book.

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<v Speaker 1>But there was always probably. And I do remember an

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<v Speaker 1>early editor saying to me, because at the time women's

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<v Speaker 1>fiction was extremely popular, it was selling really well. And

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<v Speaker 1>I remember an early editor saying to me, What's with

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<v Speaker 1>it with you and the intrigue? Why are you keeping

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<v Speaker 1>things back from the reader?

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<v Speaker 1>That's not part of this genre? Can you lay off

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<v Speaker 1>on that? So it's funny how if I had received

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<v Speaker 1>different advice back then, maybe I would have found myself

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<v Speaker 1>in this genre a little bit sooner. Yeah, so it

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<v Speaker 1>was interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, interesting. I guess what comes and goes In

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<v Speaker 1>terms of popularity at the time, books like Marian Keyes

0:11:24.289 --> 0:11:28.348
<v Speaker 1>and Cathy Kelly were selling truckloads. They still do, but

0:11:28.359 --> 0:11:30.719
<v Speaker 1>But they were the number one type of book that

0:11:30.729 --> 0:11:32.900
<v Speaker 1>was selling. And a lot of us that were signed

0:11:32.909 --> 0:11:38.618
<v Speaker 1>back then were signed to deliver to that particular genre.

0:11:39.070 --> 0:11:43.349
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so you continued writing for publication. Who was your publisher?

0:11:43.359 --> 0:11:45.229
<v Speaker 2>Back in at that time. I think

0:11:45.239 --> 0:11:47.299
<v Speaker 1>I've got surely got out the Guinness Book of Records

0:11:47.309 --> 0:11:49.090
<v Speaker 1>for the most publishers in Australia.

0:11:50.460 --> 0:11:52.929
<v Speaker 2>I really want to hear about this because I think

0:11:52.940 --> 0:11:55.270
<v Speaker 2>this is brilliant and you and I were talking about

0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:57.090
<v Speaker 2>this when we spoke at Maxine's.

0:11:57.390 --> 0:11:59.929
<v Speaker 2>I think it's really good for authors out there to

0:11:59.940 --> 0:12:03.090
<v Speaker 2>know even if, uh, aiming for publication or if you've

0:12:03.099 --> 0:12:05.900
<v Speaker 2>had one or two books published is that the publisher

0:12:05.909 --> 0:12:08.469
<v Speaker 2>you're with now might not be the publisher you're with

0:12:08.479 --> 0:12:10.829
<v Speaker 2>in two or three years time or five years or

0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:14.440
<v Speaker 2>10 years like it's It can be a bit of

0:12:14.450 --> 0:12:17.010
<v Speaker 2>a kind of merry around, can't it, where you're off

0:12:17.020 --> 0:12:20.099
<v Speaker 2>on a different horse each time. So really interested to

0:12:20.109 --> 0:12:22.659
<v Speaker 2>hear about how that has evolved for you be

0:12:23.309 --> 0:12:26.950
<v Speaker 1>it's I mean it Fundamentally. It's a very tough industry,

0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:28.770
<v Speaker 1>and at the end of the day, I'd love to

0:12:28.780 --> 0:12:32.650
<v Speaker 1>say it was me publisher hopping, but it really wasn't

0:12:32.659 --> 0:12:36.169
<v Speaker 1>for somebody who has a background in business as I do.

0:12:36.739 --> 0:12:39.840
<v Speaker 1>The publishing industry is extremely and a lot more hardcore

0:12:39.849 --> 0:12:42.000
<v Speaker 1>and brutal than anything I've ever come through in business.

0:12:42.010 --> 0:12:43.959
<v Speaker 1>When they aren't done with you. They are done with

0:12:43.969 --> 0:12:46.559
<v Speaker 1>you and it can be quite brutal and sometimes not

0:12:46.719 --> 0:12:49.919
<v Speaker 1>anything you've done wrong. It's just time. Timing can work

0:12:49.929 --> 0:12:52.679
<v Speaker 1>in your favour, and it can hold the work against you.

0:12:52.929 --> 0:12:56.919
<v Speaker 1>So that very first book was published here by Hachette,

0:12:57.429 --> 0:12:59.760
<v Speaker 1>and at the same time it was picked up by

0:12:59.950 --> 0:13:03.250
<v Speaker 1>an Irish publisher on a three book deal. But, uh,

0:13:03.260 --> 0:13:07.010
<v Speaker 1>I didn't last for Hachette very long. They didn't take

0:13:07.020 --> 0:13:09.000
<v Speaker 1>up their option for the second book. For a while,

0:13:09.010 --> 0:13:11.890
<v Speaker 1>I was published in Ireland, and I wasn't published here.

0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:14.390
<v Speaker 1>So that was the case for my second novel and

0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:18.500
<v Speaker 1>my third novel and then my fourth. My third novel

0:13:18.510 --> 0:13:21.049
<v Speaker 1>did really well, and when it got to number four

0:13:21.059 --> 0:13:24.690
<v Speaker 1>and then suddenly, publishers were once again interest here in

0:13:24.700 --> 0:13:25.409
<v Speaker 1>picking me up.

0:13:25.770 --> 0:13:28.859
<v Speaker 1>And then I signed a deal with Pa MacMillan and

0:13:28.869 --> 0:13:31.159
<v Speaker 1>I published my fourth book with Pa MacMillan and I

0:13:31.169 --> 0:13:33.400
<v Speaker 1>back published my first three books with Pa

0:13:33.549 --> 0:13:36.750
<v Speaker 2>MacMillan. OK, even that first one that had been out

0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:37.630
<v Speaker 2>here with a different

0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:40.250
<v Speaker 1>publisher, it had a It got a new cover, a

0:13:40.260 --> 0:13:44.890
<v Speaker 1>much nicer cover that a bit more contemporary and and

0:13:44.900 --> 0:13:48.098
<v Speaker 1>so in all, I had five books with Pa MA Me,

0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:53.070
<v Speaker 1>But they were some of my earlier books. And in retrospect,

0:13:53.659 --> 0:13:56.320
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if it was the right thing to

0:13:57.400 --> 0:13:59.559
<v Speaker 1>resign those books, and at the time there was a

0:13:59.570 --> 0:14:02.210
<v Speaker 1>lot of money involved because somebody else was bidding for

0:14:02.219 --> 0:14:05.619
<v Speaker 1>that book. And so there was a lot of money

0:14:05.630 --> 0:14:07.770
<v Speaker 1>on the line, and I guess that's not always a

0:14:07.780 --> 0:14:10.650
<v Speaker 1>good thing, either, because it was in advance that I

0:14:10.659 --> 0:14:14.309
<v Speaker 1>could never really earn back then. So my fifth book

0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:16.619
<v Speaker 1>came out with Pat Mill, and but I already knew

0:14:16.630 --> 0:14:20.750
<v Speaker 1>that I was quite shaky ground because the print run

0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:24.400
<v Speaker 1>wasn't great and it was a much more reduced publication,

0:14:24.409 --> 0:14:26.340
<v Speaker 1>and I could see I was on very shaky ground.

0:14:26.349 --> 0:14:26.669
<v Speaker 1>And then

0:14:27.119 --> 0:14:30.530
<v Speaker 1>they rejected my sixth book, which was ready to go,

0:14:30.539 --> 0:14:32.719
<v Speaker 1>and at that point I reached it. It was probably

0:14:32.729 --> 0:14:35.090
<v Speaker 1>my first really big crisis point where I was like going,

0:14:35.099 --> 0:14:38.799
<v Speaker 1>What am I doing? I don't have a publisher. Nobody's

0:14:38.809 --> 0:14:41.909
<v Speaker 1>interested because I guess I'm not a writer virgin anymore.

0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:45.789
<v Speaker 1>When you're a new debut author gets excited, but when

0:14:45.799 --> 0:14:47.969
<v Speaker 1>you're when you've been around for a while. It's hard

0:14:47.979 --> 0:14:50.549
<v Speaker 1>to get people excited and

0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:54.119
<v Speaker 1>I'd have just because the book was written and I

0:14:54.130 --> 0:14:56.159
<v Speaker 1>knew it was a good book. I said, Oh, well,

0:14:56.169 --> 0:14:59.140
<v Speaker 1>selfish it. I didn't really want to self publish it.

0:14:59.150 --> 0:15:01.849
<v Speaker 1>I've got to say And I do remember my agent

0:15:01.859 --> 0:15:03.960
<v Speaker 1>at the time saying to me that self publishing was

0:15:03.969 --> 0:15:06.700
<v Speaker 1>a K of death, which was not very helpful at all,

0:15:06.710 --> 0:15:08.750
<v Speaker 1>because I said to him, That's not going to do

0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:12.609
<v Speaker 1>with it. Nobody wants to publish it. And so I

0:15:12.619 --> 0:15:15.179
<v Speaker 1>self published it, and

0:15:15.609 --> 0:15:18.789
<v Speaker 1>it did. Yeah, OK, and all the libraries picked it

0:15:18.799 --> 0:15:20.210
<v Speaker 1>up because they had all my back lists. So I

0:15:20.219 --> 0:15:24.030
<v Speaker 1>guess it. And it also picked a proper distributor. So

0:15:24.039 --> 0:15:25.950
<v Speaker 1>it was even though it was self published. It had

0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:29.070
<v Speaker 1>a lot more backing, perhaps, than a normal self published

0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:32.070
<v Speaker 1>book because it had a distributor and it was on.

0:15:32.590 --> 0:15:35.030
<v Speaker 1>It was as professional as what you could get. Got

0:15:35.039 --> 0:15:37.770
<v Speaker 1>the same designer to do the cover. I got it

0:15:37.780 --> 0:15:42.559
<v Speaker 1>professionally typeset. It looked good, and so when it went

0:15:42.570 --> 0:15:44.929
<v Speaker 1>into libraries, it looked like just like any other book

0:15:44.940 --> 0:15:45.650
<v Speaker 1>turns apart.

0:15:46.260 --> 0:15:49.650
<v Speaker 1>Book six. Yeah, with the next. I guess I had

0:15:49.659 --> 0:15:52.140
<v Speaker 1>a bit more interest, but and there was a few

0:15:52.150 --> 0:15:56.250
<v Speaker 1>points where we almost got publishers over the line and

0:15:56.260 --> 0:16:02.109
<v Speaker 1>we didn't quite manage it. And again I was there

0:16:02.119 --> 0:16:04.510
<v Speaker 1>and I had a finished book. And so I self

0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:07.280
<v Speaker 1>published that as well, because nobody in the end of

0:16:07.289 --> 0:16:10.659
<v Speaker 1>the day, nobody signed a contract despite trying very hard

0:16:10.669 --> 0:16:12.840
<v Speaker 1>to to achieve that. And then

0:16:13.330 --> 0:16:18.010
<v Speaker 1>I guess the kind of miracle happened, then a traditional publisher.

0:16:18.020 --> 0:16:21.780
<v Speaker 1>This time it was Penguin, UK said. Oh, actually, we

0:16:21.789 --> 0:16:24.989
<v Speaker 1>really these books we really like. And I had written

0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.159
<v Speaker 1>another book, and it seems to me that when I'm

0:16:27.169 --> 0:16:31.270
<v Speaker 1>at my bleakest doing sports, I seem to write more.

0:16:31.609 --> 0:16:32.190
<v Speaker 1>It's almost like

0:16:32.989 --> 0:16:34.859
<v Speaker 1>who care. It's all lost anyway. I might as well

0:16:34.869 --> 0:16:36.010
<v Speaker 1>just write a book. Shit.

0:16:36.020 --> 0:16:38.000
<v Speaker 2>Have you found that when you're doing that, it's like

0:16:38.010 --> 0:16:40.080
<v Speaker 2>you're writing the book that you really want to write

0:16:40.090 --> 0:16:43.570
<v Speaker 2>because you're not writing the contract? So you're just writing genuinely.

0:16:43.580 --> 0:16:46.039
<v Speaker 2>You know what's coming out from your heart sort of thing?

0:16:46.530 --> 0:16:50.179
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So that book that I completely wrote from my

0:16:50.190 --> 0:16:53.840
<v Speaker 1>heart was the missing pieces of Sophie McCarthy because at

0:16:53.849 --> 0:16:56.849
<v Speaker 1>the time I had already self published two books. I

0:16:56.859 --> 0:16:59.750
<v Speaker 1>had no intentions of self publishing any of the books,

0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:02.359
<v Speaker 1>and I just thought, I'm just going to write this.

0:17:02.479 --> 0:17:04.890
<v Speaker 1>I sort of want to dabble with having a character

0:17:04.900 --> 0:17:08.239
<v Speaker 1>who's not as likeable as my previous characters. I want

0:17:08.250 --> 0:17:11.689
<v Speaker 1>to dabble with something darker, and that

0:17:12.069 --> 0:17:15.359
<v Speaker 1>was the book that really got me back in the game.

0:17:15.369 --> 0:17:18.030
<v Speaker 1>I guess it was picked up by Penguin UK, and

0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:22.660
<v Speaker 1>then it was published, distributed here by Penguin Australia, and

0:17:22.670 --> 0:17:26.569
<v Speaker 1>I was S in mainstream publishing. But I don't think

0:17:26.579 --> 0:17:28.119
<v Speaker 1>I would have ever written that book.

0:17:28.458 --> 0:17:31.619
<v Speaker 1>Hannah not been out of contract and had my back

0:17:31.859 --> 0:17:33.529
<v Speaker 1>wall as such. Isn't

0:17:33.538 --> 0:17:36.338
<v Speaker 2>that interesting? How did that come under the radar of

0:17:36.348 --> 0:17:37.259
<v Speaker 2>Penguin UK

0:17:37.409 --> 0:17:41.279
<v Speaker 1>you my agent, because I'm still really struggling here to

0:17:41.288 --> 0:17:45.058
<v Speaker 1>get over get past my reputation really does, even though

0:17:45.068 --> 0:17:49.538
<v Speaker 1>that sounds terrible, right? When you're no longer published and

0:17:49.548 --> 0:17:54.038
<v Speaker 1>if you're not selling very high numbers, it's really hard

0:17:54.048 --> 0:17:56.558
<v Speaker 1>to get a publisher to pick you up here.

0:17:56.979 --> 0:17:58.099
<v Speaker 2>I'm hearing you, you

0:18:00.099 --> 0:18:03.438
<v Speaker 1>know that, right? And sometimes thing to do with the

0:18:03.449 --> 0:18:06.239
<v Speaker 1>book and in the end, with the missing pieces of

0:18:06.250 --> 0:18:08.780
<v Speaker 1>Sophie McCarthy. There was quite a lot of interest from

0:18:08.790 --> 0:18:11.810
<v Speaker 1>a number of overseas publishers, and I know now it

0:18:11.819 --> 0:18:14.188
<v Speaker 1>was a good book at the time. I was like, No,

0:18:14.199 --> 0:18:16.349
<v Speaker 1>I wrote what I wanted to write, but it was

0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:19.479
<v Speaker 1>It didn't matter what I wrote here. There was no

0:18:19.489 --> 0:18:23.349
<v Speaker 1>convincing a publisher at the time to publish me here.

0:18:23.770 --> 0:18:27.310
<v Speaker 2>How did you cope with that kind of mentally and

0:18:27.319 --> 0:18:30.010
<v Speaker 2>emotionally that you mentioned Book six, I think, is your

0:18:30.020 --> 0:18:33.329
<v Speaker 2>first crisis or whatever. But now how did you find

0:18:33.339 --> 0:18:38.000
<v Speaker 2>that kind of having been traditionally published and all that

0:18:38.010 --> 0:18:39.910
<v Speaker 2>sort of thing? And then suddenly you can't get a

0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:42.419
<v Speaker 2>publisher here interested in your books? How did you cope

0:18:42.430 --> 0:18:45.010
<v Speaker 2>with that? Mentally and emotionally? Look,

0:18:45.020 --> 0:18:48.589
<v Speaker 1>there was days when I was very stoic and just

0:18:48.599 --> 0:18:49.948
<v Speaker 1>got on with the job and

0:18:50.439 --> 0:18:52.609
<v Speaker 1>kept driving and did the best I could do. And

0:18:52.619 --> 0:18:54.339
<v Speaker 1>then there were days when I was sobbing

0:18:55.270 --> 0:18:57.708
<v Speaker 1>and get a complete mess. And I guess you see,

0:18:57.719 --> 0:19:01.020
<v Speaker 1>the thing is, you do feel like a failure. It's

0:19:01.030 --> 0:19:04.739
<v Speaker 1>you're you're so invested in it, and it's funny because

0:19:04.750 --> 0:19:07.819
<v Speaker 1>now I can look back over, I guess the last

0:19:07.829 --> 0:19:11.319
<v Speaker 1>20 years and laugh at myself a little bit. And

0:19:11.329 --> 0:19:13.369
<v Speaker 1>though I think it's Kate Milden

0:19:13.464 --> 0:19:15.385
<v Speaker 1>Hall has said, it's not a matter of life and

0:19:15.395 --> 0:19:18.044
<v Speaker 1>death these books, So we're not like paramedics trying to

0:19:18.055 --> 0:19:21.015
<v Speaker 1>save lives. It feels to us, and we have a

0:19:21.025 --> 0:19:24.844
<v Speaker 1>lot invested. But a bit of perspective is is really useful.

0:19:24.854 --> 0:19:27.504
<v Speaker 1>But it is, I guess when you love what you're

0:19:27.515 --> 0:19:31.125
<v Speaker 1>doing and you want to keep doing it and realising

0:19:31.135 --> 0:19:31.604
<v Speaker 1>that

0:19:32.089 --> 0:19:34.010
<v Speaker 1>you might not be able to keep doing it, that

0:19:34.020 --> 0:19:37.420
<v Speaker 1>is is a bit devastating, too, and you can't pretend

0:19:37.430 --> 0:19:40.510
<v Speaker 1>that it's not devastating. And I think you know how

0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:43.939
<v Speaker 1>that feels. And a lot of authors know how that feels.

0:19:43.949 --> 0:19:47.579
<v Speaker 1>And I guess the truth of it is that every

0:19:47.589 --> 0:19:53.239
<v Speaker 1>new debut book publisher signs they're probably dropping a mid

0:19:53.250 --> 0:19:55.698
<v Speaker 1>list author to make room for that debut book. And

0:19:55.709 --> 0:19:59.170
<v Speaker 1>that's the industry. But you don't know that when you

0:19:59.180 --> 0:20:01.750
<v Speaker 1>are being signed or being dropped.

0:20:02.229 --> 0:20:02.660
<v Speaker 2>No,

0:20:03.219 --> 0:20:05.589
<v Speaker 1>you don't have a perspective and it took me many

0:20:05.599 --> 0:20:06.188
<v Speaker 1>years

0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:09.819
<v Speaker 1>to learn that perspective and sometimes you hear that perspective

0:20:09.829 --> 0:20:13.359
<v Speaker 1>from other authors who listen to a lot of podcasts

0:20:13.369 --> 0:20:16.569
<v Speaker 1>and really study what's happening. I learn a lot from

0:20:16.579 --> 0:20:19.609
<v Speaker 1>being around other authors, and I'm still learning every day,

0:20:19.750 --> 0:20:20.089
<v Speaker 1>every

0:20:20.099 --> 0:20:24.699
<v Speaker 2>day and things change change. Don't they changed so drastically

0:20:24.709 --> 0:20:27.218
<v Speaker 2>over the years? And I think, But I'm the same.

0:20:27.229 --> 0:20:29.659
<v Speaker 2>Even looking back, I don't think I realised at the

0:20:29.670 --> 0:20:34.919
<v Speaker 2>time how much not getting another deal with Hachette after

0:20:34.930 --> 0:20:35.819
<v Speaker 2>four books with them?

0:20:36.219 --> 0:20:39.770
<v Speaker 2>No, not that we've got anything against a shirt personally, but, um,

0:20:39.810 --> 0:20:42.300
<v Speaker 2>you know, I had a great relationship with my publisher there,

0:20:42.310 --> 0:20:45.250
<v Speaker 2>like really, And I know that she was devastated that

0:20:45.260 --> 0:20:47.920
<v Speaker 2>she they weren't going to publish another book. But I

0:20:47.930 --> 0:20:50.489
<v Speaker 2>think what I didn't grasp at the time and it

0:20:50.500 --> 0:20:53.339
<v Speaker 2>took me a long time to grasp is it's a

0:20:53.349 --> 0:20:57.099
<v Speaker 2>numbers game. It's a business. They're in the business of

0:20:57.109 --> 0:21:02.688
<v Speaker 2>making money. And when the books aren't making the money, yeah,

0:21:02.699 --> 0:21:05.829
<v Speaker 2>they're not meeting the financial expectations that the publisher had.

0:21:06.219 --> 0:21:09.630
<v Speaker 2>It's not really anything to do with whether that book

0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:12.040
<v Speaker 2>is well written or not, or whether the readers who

0:21:12.050 --> 0:21:14.599
<v Speaker 2>did read it loved it or whatever. It's just purely

0:21:14.609 --> 0:21:17.420
<v Speaker 2>we're not making enough money out of you. So see you.

0:21:17.430 --> 0:21:20.709
<v Speaker 2>We're gonna find somebody else. That's really the reality, isn't it?

0:21:20.719 --> 0:21:20.900
<v Speaker 2>It

0:21:21.130 --> 0:21:25.310
<v Speaker 1>is the reality, and publishers aren't necessarily honest with us.

0:21:25.939 --> 0:21:28.189
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if it's good to be honest or bad,

0:21:28.199 --> 0:21:29.880
<v Speaker 1>to be honest, though, because I think if they were,

0:21:29.890 --> 0:21:31.379
<v Speaker 1>if they really told us

0:21:32.130 --> 0:21:36.020
<v Speaker 1>the how they make decisions we might not write

0:21:36.030 --> 0:21:38.209
<v Speaker 2>book through. But I think we're getting up to book

0:21:38.219 --> 0:21:40.760
<v Speaker 2>number eight in a minute. Sophie McCarthy, I think. Right.

0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:44.109
<v Speaker 2>But how did you mentioned you had you put two

0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:46.890
<v Speaker 2>books out, Self published two books. You didn't really want

0:21:46.900 --> 0:21:49.869
<v Speaker 2>to do it again. How did you find the whole

0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:52.290
<v Speaker 2>experience of self publishing? Were there kind of things that

0:21:52.300 --> 0:21:54.790
<v Speaker 2>you did love about it and other things you didn't love?

0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:56.109
<v Speaker 2>What was that like for you?

0:21:56.479 --> 0:21:57.379
<v Speaker 2>I didn't in the

0:21:57.390 --> 0:21:59.579
<v Speaker 1>end, even though I didn't want to do it because

0:21:59.589 --> 0:22:02.569
<v Speaker 1>my published my agent made me feel like it was

0:22:02.579 --> 0:22:05.188
<v Speaker 1>the wrong step. I learned an awful lot about the

0:22:05.199 --> 0:22:08.319
<v Speaker 1>industry and the process. I never really knew that type setting.

0:22:08.329 --> 0:22:11.599
<v Speaker 1>I never knew much about cover designs. All the platforms

0:22:11.609 --> 0:22:13.430
<v Speaker 1>were just starting to come into play all the different

0:22:13.439 --> 0:22:16.619
<v Speaker 1>online platforms and alerts.

0:22:16.949 --> 0:22:19.650
<v Speaker 1>I learned a lot and I ended up enjoying it,

0:22:19.660 --> 0:22:22.129
<v Speaker 1>and I think it ended up saving my career. In

0:22:22.140 --> 0:22:24.359
<v Speaker 1>actual fact, it saved my career because it kept my

0:22:24.530 --> 0:22:28.510
<v Speaker 1>out there and in particular over that period. The librarians

0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:32.770
<v Speaker 1>were very supportive of me and book books got selected

0:22:32.780 --> 0:22:36.329
<v Speaker 1>for a together G programme based librarian

0:22:37.219 --> 0:22:42.989
<v Speaker 1>and that felt extra special because they were books that

0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:47.170
<v Speaker 1>had been entirely produced by me down to even using

0:22:47.180 --> 0:22:49.260
<v Speaker 1>the cover with lots of help, mind you, because I

0:22:49.270 --> 0:22:53.339
<v Speaker 1>did hire all the right help I knew, and at

0:22:53.349 --> 0:22:55.760
<v Speaker 1>that time there was a lot of self published books

0:22:55.770 --> 0:22:57.819
<v Speaker 1>that you pick it up and you knew immediately that

0:22:57.829 --> 0:23:01.550
<v Speaker 1>it was self published. I wanted somebody picking up my

0:23:01.560 --> 0:23:01.879
<v Speaker 1>book

0:23:02.479 --> 0:23:04.708
<v Speaker 1>not to know that it was self published. I wanted

0:23:04.719 --> 0:23:07.869
<v Speaker 1>it to look exactly like my other books, and they

0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:12.000
<v Speaker 1>did so it. It's self publishing. It really did save

0:23:12.010 --> 0:23:14.239
<v Speaker 1>my career. I guess it kept my name relevant and

0:23:14.250 --> 0:23:17.419
<v Speaker 1>out there. Otherwise I would have had I think the

0:23:17.430 --> 0:23:21.579
<v Speaker 1>missing piece of Sophie McCarthy finally was released in 2018

0:23:21.939 --> 0:23:27.639
<v Speaker 1>and less than perfect. My traditional novel was released in 2011,

0:23:27.650 --> 0:23:29.599
<v Speaker 1>I think, or 12. So I had a period of

0:23:29.609 --> 0:23:32.639
<v Speaker 1>about six years to seven years there where

0:23:33.599 --> 0:23:36.229
<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't have been heard of if I hadn't self

0:23:36.239 --> 0:23:39.069
<v Speaker 1>published those books. And I would you know, any kind

0:23:39.079 --> 0:23:41.629
<v Speaker 1>of readership that I had built up would have gone

0:23:41.640 --> 0:23:43.479
<v Speaker 1>and dissipated. In that time, I

0:23:43.489 --> 0:23:45.930
<v Speaker 2>was exactly the same. I had crossed my heart out

0:23:45.939 --> 0:23:47.290
<v Speaker 2>and I was the same as you be. I just

0:23:47.300 --> 0:23:49.849
<v Speaker 2>wanted it to look exactly the same as every other

0:23:49.859 --> 0:23:52.229
<v Speaker 2>book on a shelf. And I think that's so important

0:23:52.239 --> 0:23:55.130
<v Speaker 2>is to do it really professionally, have it professionally edited,

0:23:55.140 --> 0:23:56.859
<v Speaker 2>great cover, all that sort of thing.

0:23:57.310 --> 0:24:00.290
<v Speaker 2>And like you, I learned so much in that process,

0:24:00.300 --> 0:24:02.839
<v Speaker 2>and I'm certainly not sorry that I've done it, and

0:24:02.849 --> 0:24:05.069
<v Speaker 2>I would do it again. Yeah, I and

0:24:05.270 --> 0:24:07.760
<v Speaker 1>I said I wouldn't do it again because it was

0:24:07.770 --> 0:24:10.329
<v Speaker 1>all a positive experience. It saved

0:24:10.530 --> 0:24:11.930
<v Speaker 2>a lot of work. It

0:24:12.859 --> 0:24:15.329
<v Speaker 1>is a lot of work, and maybe it's harder now

0:24:15.339 --> 0:24:18.000
<v Speaker 1>as well to I think we might have hit a

0:24:18.010 --> 0:24:23.300
<v Speaker 1>sweet point where you could successfully publish a book and

0:24:23.310 --> 0:24:25.910
<v Speaker 1>sell a few 1000 copies. I'm not sure if that's

0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:26.969
<v Speaker 1>as easy anymore,

0:24:27.540 --> 0:24:31.949
<v Speaker 1>but it's also, ironically, when I self published, I got

0:24:31.959 --> 0:24:35.640
<v Speaker 1>invited to so many more things because people wanted to

0:24:35.650 --> 0:24:38.880
<v Speaker 1>know how to do it. So I got invited to

0:24:38.910 --> 0:24:41.560
<v Speaker 1>all these festivals and book events that I had never

0:24:41.569 --> 0:24:45.000
<v Speaker 1>been invited to. While I was traditionally published. It was,

0:24:45.339 --> 0:24:45.589
<v Speaker 1>That's

0:24:45.599 --> 0:24:48.180
<v Speaker 2>great. Like you say, It kept your name out there.

0:24:48.189 --> 0:24:51.760
<v Speaker 2>You had books circulating. Your readers were still finding your work.

0:24:51.770 --> 0:24:54.089
<v Speaker 2>So was that first book that you self published. Was

0:24:54.099 --> 0:24:55.198
<v Speaker 2>that Sophie McCarthy?

0:24:56.130 --> 0:24:58.699
<v Speaker 1>No. And that was one apart. And then there was

0:24:58.709 --> 0:25:03.979
<v Speaker 1>once lost and and then then was the missing pieces

0:25:03.989 --> 0:25:06.750
<v Speaker 1>of Sophie McCarthy, which was picked up by Penguin UK

0:25:06.760 --> 0:25:10.909
<v Speaker 1>and sold in here, distributed by Penguin Australia. And then

0:25:10.920 --> 0:25:15.130
<v Speaker 1>I hit another hiccup because I was no sooner feeling,

0:25:15.140 --> 0:25:17.869
<v Speaker 1>Oh my God, this has been really good. I'm back.

0:25:18.410 --> 0:25:21.349
<v Speaker 1>And then my publisher left

0:25:21.819 --> 0:25:25.669
<v Speaker 1>Penguin UK. And then also, when your publisher leaves, that's

0:25:25.680 --> 0:25:30.040
<v Speaker 1>a big thing. You've lost your champion within that particular

0:25:30.050 --> 0:25:34.239
<v Speaker 1>publishing house, and it wasn't even that bad, or it

0:25:34.250 --> 0:25:38.329
<v Speaker 1>became worse because the person who replaced her then left

0:25:38.739 --> 0:25:42.849
<v Speaker 1>and the person who replaced her then left had an

0:25:42.859 --> 0:25:46.300
<v Speaker 1>option for a second book with them. And they said,

0:25:46.310 --> 0:25:48.609
<v Speaker 1>We don't have anyone who can even look at a

0:25:48.619 --> 0:25:51.159
<v Speaker 1>second book at the moment, and we need to hire

0:25:51.170 --> 0:25:54.280
<v Speaker 1>and you can either wait for six to

0:25:54.989 --> 0:25:58.229
<v Speaker 1>12 months to two years or and I guess I

0:25:58.239 --> 0:26:01.650
<v Speaker 1>didn't want to wait because I thought, Oh, I don't

0:26:01.660 --> 0:26:03.458
<v Speaker 1>even know who you're going to get or if you're

0:26:03.469 --> 0:26:05.349
<v Speaker 1>going to get someone or if you're that's another thing

0:26:05.359 --> 0:26:08.589
<v Speaker 1>that happens to a lot of authors their publisher moves on.

0:26:08.599 --> 0:26:13.889
<v Speaker 1>And sometimes they they've lost their biggest supporter when the

0:26:13.900 --> 0:26:14.729
<v Speaker 1>publisher moves on.

0:26:15.489 --> 0:26:17.109
<v Speaker 1>So then I was

0:26:18.109 --> 0:26:20.160
<v Speaker 1>had to go back to market again. But this time

0:26:20.170 --> 0:26:23.109
<v Speaker 1>I did pick up another publisher, and this time it

0:26:23.119 --> 0:26:29.750
<v Speaker 1>was profile UK and pro profile. UK published two of

0:26:29.760 --> 0:26:32.689
<v Speaker 1>my books, and then they distributed those books here through

0:26:32.699 --> 0:26:36.599
<v Speaker 1>Alan and Unwin. I'll summarise all the Australian publishers when

0:26:36.609 --> 0:26:37.989
<v Speaker 1>I'm done, because I yeah,

0:26:38.089 --> 0:26:39.219
<v Speaker 2>it's really interesting,

0:26:40.599 --> 0:26:42.369
<v Speaker 1>you know, to Alan and UN. But both of those

0:26:42.380 --> 0:26:43.800
<v Speaker 1>books came out during Covid

0:26:44.650 --> 0:26:47.599
<v Speaker 1>and and I think the second of those books, you

0:26:47.609 --> 0:26:52.060
<v Speaker 1>had it coming, didn't even in the UK didn't even

0:26:52.069 --> 0:26:54.969
<v Speaker 1>make it out of the warehouses. Even Amazon was closed down.

0:26:54.979 --> 0:26:59.099
<v Speaker 1>It was an entire shutdown. Yeah, So at the end

0:26:59.109 --> 0:27:02.718
<v Speaker 1>of those two books, I was once again without a publisher.

0:27:02.910 --> 0:27:06.869
<v Speaker 1>But I then signed with a firm here in Australia,

0:27:06.880 --> 0:27:07.478
<v Speaker 1>and I was

0:27:07.979 --> 0:27:12.159
<v Speaker 1>back with a mainstream publisher in where I live, which

0:27:12.170 --> 0:27:14.729
<v Speaker 1>felt really important. Yeah.

0:27:15.849 --> 0:27:20.040
<v Speaker 1>In the meantime, I lost my UK publisher. So

0:27:21.010 --> 0:27:26.140
<v Speaker 1>yeah, that's quite a story, isn't it? She McMillan two

0:27:26.150 --> 0:27:29.649
<v Speaker 1>sub published books that were distributed by Dennis Jones at

0:27:29.660 --> 0:27:30.219
<v Speaker 1>the time

0:27:30.599 --> 0:27:35.140
<v Speaker 1>and then a Penguin UK book distributed by pens Profile

0:27:35.150 --> 0:27:38.349
<v Speaker 1>books distributed by Allen and Unwin and then affirm. That's

0:27:38.359 --> 0:27:41.699
<v Speaker 1>how many different people my books have been brought.

0:27:41.709 --> 0:27:43.489
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but like I was saying, I think this is

0:27:43.500 --> 0:27:46.659
<v Speaker 2>a great lesson for everyone out there. Look, if you

0:27:46.670 --> 0:27:50.129
<v Speaker 2>get in with a publisher and everything's going well and

0:27:50.140 --> 0:27:53.339
<v Speaker 2>there isn't any rocky patch like fantastic. But

0:27:53.829 --> 0:27:55.839
<v Speaker 2>you know, as we both know, we know so many

0:27:55.849 --> 0:27:58.680
<v Speaker 2>people that have been with one publisher and then maybe

0:27:58.689 --> 0:28:00.649
<v Speaker 2>have not been published for a while and find another

0:28:00.660 --> 0:28:04.089
<v Speaker 2>publisher like it is actually quite a normal thing, isn't it?

0:28:04.099 --> 0:28:06.089
<v Speaker 2>Like at the time when it happens to you, you

0:28:06.099 --> 0:28:09.290
<v Speaker 2>feel like Oh, God, I'm the only failure that this

0:28:09.300 --> 0:28:11.770
<v Speaker 2>has happened to. But when you talk to a lot

0:28:11.780 --> 0:28:14.359
<v Speaker 2>of people in the industry, this is actually quite a

0:28:14.369 --> 0:28:15.469
<v Speaker 2>normal thing, isn't it?

0:28:16.869 --> 0:28:18.939
<v Speaker 2>Look, I think all of that is so true. So

0:28:18.949 --> 0:28:22.319
<v Speaker 2>with a firm, you know, you mentioned that some of

0:28:22.329 --> 0:28:25.989
<v Speaker 2>your earlier books while they were women's fiction, had this

0:28:26.000 --> 0:28:30.020
<v Speaker 2>kind of mystery in element of intrigue. And it seems

0:28:30.030 --> 0:28:32.359
<v Speaker 2>that in your most all your most recent books have

0:28:32.369 --> 0:28:35.030
<v Speaker 2>been going that way and more and more into that

0:28:35.040 --> 0:28:35.199
<v Speaker 2>crime

0:28:35.545 --> 0:28:39.055
<v Speaker 2>genre. So when you got the contract with a firm,

0:28:39.064 --> 0:28:41.994
<v Speaker 2>was your agent still just shopping your books around here?

0:28:42.005 --> 0:28:43.645
<v Speaker 2>Or even though you had the books out in the

0:28:43.655 --> 0:28:45.094
<v Speaker 2>UK and and all that sort of thing

0:28:45.104 --> 0:28:48.484
<v Speaker 1>was shopping my books around here and again, I was

0:28:48.494 --> 0:28:50.704
<v Speaker 1>at a crisis point because I could see with the

0:28:50.714 --> 0:28:54.944
<v Speaker 1>UK that things weren't going particularly well, and I didn't

0:28:54.954 --> 0:28:56.895
<v Speaker 1>know if I could sell

0:28:57.520 --> 0:29:00.589
<v Speaker 1>the book here. So it was a real save by

0:29:00.599 --> 0:29:03.689
<v Speaker 1>the Bell one again to get the books in with

0:29:03.699 --> 0:29:06.579
<v Speaker 1>the firm. But the books had got steadily, I guess

0:29:06.589 --> 0:29:10.229
<v Speaker 1>darker and You Had a Coming, which was my second

0:29:10.239 --> 0:29:13.069
<v Speaker 1>book with Profile, Got shortlisted for the DAS and the

0:29:13.079 --> 0:29:16.300
<v Speaker 1>Ned Kelly's, which made me really think I thought, Oh

0:29:16.310 --> 0:29:16.939
<v Speaker 1>my God, I

0:29:18.579 --> 0:29:21.800
<v Speaker 1>really crime now because up until that point, I wouldn't

0:29:21.849 --> 0:29:27.119
<v Speaker 1>have entirely classified myself as crime. I'm still not really

0:29:27.199 --> 0:29:30.599
<v Speaker 1>hardcore crime, as I'm sure you'd agree. It's how much

0:29:31.400 --> 0:29:33.500
<v Speaker 1>softer offering.

0:29:33.709 --> 0:29:37.099
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so did that kind of then change your perspective

0:29:37.109 --> 0:29:39.609
<v Speaker 2>on when you're going in to write a book? When

0:29:39.619 --> 0:29:41.619
<v Speaker 2>you started thinking of yourself, even though it may be

0:29:41.630 --> 0:29:44.859
<v Speaker 2>on the lighter end of the spectrum or whatever of crime,

0:29:44.869 --> 0:29:47.739
<v Speaker 2>did it change the way you approached the writing or

0:29:47.750 --> 0:29:49.540
<v Speaker 2>thought about what you were writing?

0:29:49.800 --> 0:29:53.760
<v Speaker 1>It did because my publisher had a firm Martin Hughes was.

0:29:53.859 --> 0:29:56.780
<v Speaker 1>He's very honest. He's a very honest view of it,

0:29:56.790 --> 0:29:59.540
<v Speaker 1>and he and look, he said, you need in my

0:29:59.550 --> 0:30:02.660
<v Speaker 1>particular niche of crime fiction

0:30:03.300 --> 0:30:07.170
<v Speaker 1>you're after maximum tension. Minimum bodies, right? We're not talking

0:30:07.180 --> 0:30:09.680
<v Speaker 1>about lots of dead bodies. We're talking about maximum tension.

0:30:09.900 --> 0:30:13.969
<v Speaker 1>But by the same token a few times, and particularly

0:30:13.979 --> 0:30:17.640
<v Speaker 1>with my recent book, one of us is missing, he went, Oh, burry,

0:30:17.650 --> 0:30:21.780
<v Speaker 1>You've written a contemporary drama this this two family drama.

0:30:21.810 --> 0:30:25.339
<v Speaker 1>This needs way more attention. I was waiting for ages

0:30:25.349 --> 0:30:27.189
<v Speaker 1>for this to happen, and you need to turn this

0:30:27.199 --> 0:30:29.390
<v Speaker 1>book completely back to front because there's not enough tension.

0:30:29.920 --> 0:30:31.160
<v Speaker 1>And so I guess

0:30:32.290 --> 0:30:34.170
<v Speaker 1>I was still doing my same old thing.

0:30:34.410 --> 0:30:37.469
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's definitely got that family drama element, but I

0:30:37.479 --> 0:30:39.430
<v Speaker 2>have to say we'll get on to actually talking about

0:30:39.439 --> 0:30:42.270
<v Speaker 2>the book in a minute, but it is loaded with tension.

0:30:42.280 --> 0:30:44.329
<v Speaker 2>So whatever you did when you went back, you did

0:30:44.339 --> 0:30:46.699
<v Speaker 2>brilliantly because there is so much tension in it. The

0:30:46.709 --> 0:30:47.310
<v Speaker 2>funny thing

0:30:47.319 --> 0:30:50.619
<v Speaker 1>was, I didn't change the story at all. It was

0:30:50.630 --> 0:30:52.060
<v Speaker 1>one of those weird things where I didn't change the

0:30:52.069 --> 0:30:54.310
<v Speaker 1>story at all, but I completely changed the structure.

0:30:54.750 --> 0:30:57.349
<v Speaker 2>OK, hold that. We're gonna come back to that. Yeah,

0:30:57.420 --> 0:30:57.810
<v Speaker 2>So it

0:30:57.819 --> 0:31:01.520
<v Speaker 1>has changed how I write. And now I'm working on

0:31:01.530 --> 0:31:04.839
<v Speaker 1>a draught book and I can hear his voice in

0:31:04.849 --> 0:31:07.119
<v Speaker 1>my head saying and an eye roll I can see

0:31:07.130 --> 0:31:09.930
<v Speaker 1>the eye roll going. This is very nice and everything

0:31:09.939 --> 0:31:11.250
<v Speaker 1>reading about this family. But

0:31:11.329 --> 0:31:14.979
<v Speaker 1>is the tension Burt? And so I immediately went, OK,

0:31:14.989 --> 0:31:17.819
<v Speaker 1>I won't start there. I'll put in a dead body here.

0:31:17.989 --> 0:31:20.439
<v Speaker 1>And so I've changed what I'm doing. I suppose I

0:31:20.449 --> 0:31:22.310
<v Speaker 1>have changed what I'm doing. But at the end of

0:31:22.319 --> 0:31:25.040
<v Speaker 1>the day, I guess my thing that I won't ever

0:31:25.050 --> 0:31:27.790
<v Speaker 1>change is that I want to write about people

0:31:28.750 --> 0:31:31.369
<v Speaker 1>that I like and that I'm interested in and that

0:31:31.380 --> 0:31:32.170
<v Speaker 1>I want them

0:31:33.150 --> 0:31:37.040
<v Speaker 1>to be everyday people. And sometimes I pick up a

0:31:37.050 --> 0:31:40.589
<v Speaker 1>crime book. And particularly in this genre, there's a lot

0:31:40.599 --> 0:31:43.849
<v Speaker 1>of unlikable people and I, I think so, unlikable. They're

0:31:43.859 --> 0:31:46.880
<v Speaker 1>not real. So I. I still want them to be real,

0:31:46.890 --> 0:31:49.209
<v Speaker 1>and I want them to be somebody that you can

0:31:49.219 --> 0:31:53.689
<v Speaker 1>relate to. But I have tried to up the attention

0:31:53.699 --> 0:31:56.640
<v Speaker 1>to deliver to this genre.

0:31:57.670 --> 0:32:01.420
<v Speaker 2>Oh, you've done it magnificently. So now that we are here,

0:32:01.430 --> 0:32:05.569
<v Speaker 2>let's talk about one of us is missing. Amazing, like

0:32:05.579 --> 0:32:08.410
<v Speaker 2>I absolutely loved it could not put it down. Uh,

0:32:08.420 --> 0:32:11.609
<v Speaker 2>I have obviously an advanced reader copy here, but the

0:32:11.619 --> 0:32:14.280
<v Speaker 2>real thing will be out very soon. So can you

0:32:14.290 --> 0:32:16.640
<v Speaker 2>tell listeners, What is this book about? Who is the

0:32:16.650 --> 0:32:18.969
<v Speaker 2>family that we meet and what's the kind of setup?

0:32:20.140 --> 0:32:23.099
<v Speaker 1>OK, so the book is. It's about a family of

0:32:23.109 --> 0:32:27.790
<v Speaker 1>four who go to a stadium concert, and parents Rachel

0:32:27.800 --> 0:32:32.160
<v Speaker 1>and Rory Sullivan bring their Children, their teenage Children to

0:32:32.180 --> 0:32:36.430
<v Speaker 1>a fictional Coldplay concert. And it's a one we've all

0:32:36.439 --> 0:32:38.410
<v Speaker 1>been to. Many of us have been to those concerts

0:32:38.420 --> 0:32:41.530
<v Speaker 1>this year. It's the the 60 odd 1000 people at

0:32:41.540 --> 0:32:43.910
<v Speaker 1>this concert, and while they're at the concert, one of

0:32:43.920 --> 0:32:46.439
<v Speaker 1>the family goes missing thing. And that's the premise of

0:32:46.449 --> 0:32:49.670
<v Speaker 1>the book. And each of the four family members

0:32:50.050 --> 0:32:53.849
<v Speaker 1>has a reason to go missing. They've each been going

0:32:53.859 --> 0:32:58.469
<v Speaker 1>through different thing, and as the top ticks down, we

0:32:58.479 --> 0:33:00.719
<v Speaker 1>we find out the secrets that they've been keeping from

0:33:00.729 --> 0:33:03.709
<v Speaker 1>each other. And also we find they find out that

0:33:03.719 --> 0:33:06.670
<v Speaker 1>they have enemies, that they didn't even realise that they had,

0:33:07.280 --> 0:33:10.780
<v Speaker 1>and they realised that life is never going to be

0:33:10.790 --> 0:33:13.489
<v Speaker 1>the same again after this particular night. But do you

0:33:13.500 --> 0:33:15.219
<v Speaker 1>want to hear? I came up with the premise I

0:33:15.229 --> 0:33:17.290
<v Speaker 2>started reading this not long after I'd been to the

0:33:17.300 --> 0:33:19.420
<v Speaker 2>Taylor Swift concert. And I've been to quite a few

0:33:19.430 --> 0:33:24.300
<v Speaker 2>big concerts in that Allianz Stadium. Adele Ed Sheeran and

0:33:24.310 --> 0:33:27.280
<v Speaker 2>one of the things that freaks me out is that

0:33:27.290 --> 0:33:29.800
<v Speaker 2>kind of when, especially when you're coming out because everyone

0:33:29.810 --> 0:33:31.300
<v Speaker 2>arrives at different times, but

0:33:31.609 --> 0:33:35.410
<v Speaker 2>everyone leaves at the same time. So one of the

0:33:35.420 --> 0:33:38.050
<v Speaker 2>things that always freaks me out is walking out, particularly

0:33:38.060 --> 0:33:40.849
<v Speaker 2>if you're getting public transport. Is that walking out in

0:33:40.859 --> 0:33:46.390
<v Speaker 2>this mass Absolute mass of people and just that

0:33:47.130 --> 0:33:51.380
<v Speaker 2>sensation of having so many people around you And I

0:33:51.390 --> 0:33:53.000
<v Speaker 2>don't know, I guess in the back of my mind,

0:33:53.010 --> 0:33:55.660
<v Speaker 2>occasionally I have thought, What if something happened here? What

0:33:55.670 --> 0:33:58.619
<v Speaker 2>if you know, someone went crazy or whatever, and this

0:33:58.630 --> 0:34:00.880
<v Speaker 2>isn't to give any spoilers away to the book because

0:34:00.890 --> 0:34:01.920
<v Speaker 2>we're not talking about that, But

0:34:02.560 --> 0:34:04.739
<v Speaker 2>it really struck a chord with me. That was where

0:34:04.750 --> 0:34:06.589
<v Speaker 2>it was set because I could picture it. And I

0:34:06.599 --> 0:34:10.570
<v Speaker 2>knew that feeling of that mass number of people and

0:34:10.580 --> 0:34:13.129
<v Speaker 2>what it would be like to try and find someone

0:34:13.139 --> 0:34:15.060
<v Speaker 2>in that crowd. But yeah, please tell me what the

0:34:15.070 --> 0:34:16.739
<v Speaker 2>inspiration was for it OK,

0:34:17.030 --> 0:34:19.678
<v Speaker 1>so the inspiration happened quite a number of years ago.

0:34:19.689 --> 0:34:23.339
<v Speaker 1>It was in 2019, and it was a U two

0:34:23.350 --> 0:34:26.620
<v Speaker 1>concert and my Children were a bit younger then. My

0:34:26.629 --> 0:34:29.060
<v Speaker 1>oldest was 17, my youngest was 14

0:34:29.719 --> 0:34:33.100
<v Speaker 1>and while I was trying to get tickets to this concert,

0:34:33.110 --> 0:34:35.449
<v Speaker 1>first of all, they were really keen to go because

0:34:35.459 --> 0:34:39.389
<v Speaker 1>I guess music is a very intergenerational thing. We grew

0:34:39.399 --> 0:34:42.449
<v Speaker 1>up liking the music that our parents listened to. Our

0:34:42.459 --> 0:34:45.370
<v Speaker 1>Children grew up liking some of the music. We listen

0:34:45.379 --> 0:34:46.340
<v Speaker 1>to some of their music

0:34:47.040 --> 0:34:49.169
<v Speaker 1>because you're in the car with each other all the time.

0:34:49.179 --> 0:34:52.049
<v Speaker 1>You're at home with each other all the time. Concerts

0:34:52.060 --> 0:34:55.340
<v Speaker 1>are intergenerational, I think, and they're a great way for

0:34:55.350 --> 0:34:57.699
<v Speaker 1>families to bond. So anyway, the kids did want to

0:34:57.709 --> 0:35:00.020
<v Speaker 1>come to this UT concert. They were really keen,

0:35:00.750 --> 0:35:03.469
<v Speaker 1>and I was trying to get four seats to the

0:35:03.479 --> 0:35:07.469
<v Speaker 1>concert and I couldn't. There was only two seats slept.

0:35:07.560 --> 0:35:10.689
<v Speaker 1>I had a clock ticking down and my son was like,

0:35:10.699 --> 0:35:12.199
<v Speaker 1>We'll go on, we'll go on the field, we'll go

0:35:12.209 --> 0:35:14.020
<v Speaker 1>on the field And there was still a few seats

0:35:14.030 --> 0:35:15.500
<v Speaker 1>left on the field and I was like going, But

0:35:15.510 --> 0:35:17.889
<v Speaker 1>you're only 17 or 14 and that's not the whole

0:35:17.899 --> 0:35:20.919
<v Speaker 1>purpose of this, but literally. I had 30 seconds left

0:35:20.929 --> 0:35:23.449
<v Speaker 1>to make this to do this transaction

0:35:24.100 --> 0:35:27.179
<v Speaker 1>and and even it ended up. You know, it was

0:35:27.189 --> 0:35:30.379
<v Speaker 1>either that or nothing, really. And I ended up getting

0:35:30.389 --> 0:35:35.100
<v Speaker 1>two stand tickets and two field tickets, and I thought

0:35:35.110 --> 0:35:36.639
<v Speaker 1>to myself, Oh, God, I don't know if that's a

0:35:36.649 --> 0:35:40.879
<v Speaker 1>good idea. And look, I know that probably sounds very helicopter,

0:35:40.889 --> 0:35:44.540
<v Speaker 1>and I'm a very I'm a self confessed helicopter parent.

0:35:44.550 --> 0:35:46.989
<v Speaker 1>I'll say that straight up. But when you're in a

0:35:47.000 --> 0:35:51.919
<v Speaker 1>crowd like that, you're talking about relatively inexperienced

0:35:52.510 --> 0:35:57.428
<v Speaker 1>teenagers. They doesn't. They're not familiar with a stadium familiar

0:35:57.439 --> 0:35:59.810
<v Speaker 1>with that side of the city. Yeah, if it was

0:35:59.820 --> 0:36:02.529
<v Speaker 1>in our local suburbs, they would be fine. But they're

0:36:02.540 --> 0:36:06.250
<v Speaker 1>not familiar with the city or navigating their way around

0:36:06.260 --> 0:36:09.089
<v Speaker 1>the And I guess I had a 17 year old

0:36:09.100 --> 0:36:14.060
<v Speaker 1>who was extremely overconfident. I know everything about everything. Yeah,

0:36:14.070 --> 0:36:17.340
<v Speaker 1>and then a 14 year old who literally is just

0:36:17.350 --> 0:36:20.219
<v Speaker 1>the worst sense of direction you've ever seen in your life.

0:36:20.229 --> 0:36:21.179
<v Speaker 1>And so

0:36:21.979 --> 0:36:24.239
<v Speaker 1>I knew it was probably a bad idea. And of course,

0:36:24.250 --> 0:36:26.040
<v Speaker 1>when it came to the night and we were walking

0:36:26.050 --> 0:36:29.320
<v Speaker 1>there and there's thousands and thousands of people walking there,

0:36:29.330 --> 0:36:31.159
<v Speaker 1>all I could think was like, What have I done?

0:36:31.340 --> 0:36:33.229
<v Speaker 1>Oh my God. And I was trying to convince them

0:36:33.239 --> 0:36:35.239
<v Speaker 1>I was like, OK, Ash, you come in the stands

0:36:35.250 --> 0:36:37.169
<v Speaker 1>with me. Connor, you go to be with your dad.

0:36:37.189 --> 0:36:39.169
<v Speaker 1>I was trying to reorganise, and they weren't having any

0:36:39.179 --> 0:36:44.120
<v Speaker 1>of it ever. Anyway, we as we got there and

0:36:44.129 --> 0:36:45.570
<v Speaker 1>then there's also that thing when you come out of

0:36:45.580 --> 0:36:48.279
<v Speaker 1>the stadium and I think you particularly notice this when

0:36:48.290 --> 0:36:49.270
<v Speaker 1>you're out at home. Bush,

0:36:50.100 --> 0:36:52.500
<v Speaker 1>they're huge, right? And when you come out, you don't

0:36:52.510 --> 0:36:54.040
<v Speaker 1>know where you're going to come out, and

0:36:54.479 --> 0:36:57.408
<v Speaker 2>it's that kind of circular thing and let's come out

0:36:57.419 --> 0:36:59.479
<v Speaker 2>this side or do you go like, Where did you enter?

0:36:59.489 --> 0:37:00.790
<v Speaker 2>Where are you leaving at the point?

0:37:01.620 --> 0:37:03.959
<v Speaker 1>That and you particularly don't know that when you're 14

0:37:03.969 --> 0:37:07.699
<v Speaker 1>and 17, right, that you don't know the area. So anyway,

0:37:07.709 --> 0:37:10.600
<v Speaker 1>during this whole concert, I was up in the stands

0:37:10.770 --> 0:37:14.110
<v Speaker 1>worrying myself sick, particularly about my 14 year old down

0:37:14.120 --> 0:37:16.560
<v Speaker 1>in that wash pit worrying myself. Absolutely sick,

0:37:16.979 --> 0:37:20.040
<v Speaker 1>and that's where the idea of the novel came from.

0:37:20.100 --> 0:37:21.760
<v Speaker 1>And of course, it's great to have an idea for

0:37:21.770 --> 0:37:23.319
<v Speaker 1>a novel. That's a really good premise. But then you've

0:37:23.330 --> 0:37:25.120
<v Speaker 1>got to figure out, OK, someone is missing

0:37:26.040 --> 0:37:30.239
<v Speaker 1>what's happened and and really not easy to figure

0:37:30.250 --> 0:37:32.370
<v Speaker 2>out what's happened. But how do you go from there?

0:37:32.379 --> 0:37:36.020
<v Speaker 2>Be like you. You've been this crime genre. You've got

0:37:36.030 --> 0:37:40.139
<v Speaker 2>this idea. Can you remember where you went with that idea? Like,

0:37:40.149 --> 0:37:41.979
<v Speaker 2>how do you sit down and then nut out? What's

0:37:41.989 --> 0:37:43.819
<v Speaker 2>your process in Nutting out the plot?

0:37:44.179 --> 0:37:47.040
<v Speaker 1>I never really not at the plot, Pa. Make life

0:37:47.050 --> 0:37:50.399
<v Speaker 1>really hard for myself by not planning anything but I

0:37:50.409 --> 0:37:54.649
<v Speaker 1>with this story I just started Initially. I started the

0:37:54.659 --> 0:37:57.199
<v Speaker 1>book four months before, and I guess I got to

0:37:57.209 --> 0:37:58.550
<v Speaker 1>know each character

0:37:59.270 --> 0:38:03.060
<v Speaker 1>just through each character and figuring out what was going

0:38:03.070 --> 0:38:05.929
<v Speaker 1>on in their lives that could have led them to

0:38:05.939 --> 0:38:09.020
<v Speaker 1>the point of one of them not turning up at

0:38:09.030 --> 0:38:12.529
<v Speaker 1>the meeting place after the concert. And so I explore

0:38:12.540 --> 0:38:14.949
<v Speaker 1>that by writing it in that form, and when I

0:38:14.959 --> 0:38:16.889
<v Speaker 1>got to the night of the concert. I guess I

0:38:16.899 --> 0:38:18.280
<v Speaker 1>knew which one of them

0:38:19.070 --> 0:38:23.159
<v Speaker 1>wasn't going to turn. And then I was immediately had

0:38:23.169 --> 0:38:26.100
<v Speaker 1>written myself into another problem as to what had happened

0:38:26.110 --> 0:38:28.669
<v Speaker 1>to them. And I don't know, I'm the kind of writer,

0:38:29.239 --> 0:38:31.959
<v Speaker 1>I there's some areas of crime writer I didn't wanna go.

0:38:32.780 --> 0:38:35.750
<v Speaker 1>So I kept thinking, I don't want to go into this,

0:38:35.760 --> 0:38:37.239
<v Speaker 1>and I don't want to go into that. And that's

0:38:37.250 --> 0:38:39.669
<v Speaker 1>just far too gruesome. And no, I can't do this

0:38:39.679 --> 0:38:42.399
<v Speaker 1>and I can't do that. And I was everything I

0:38:42.409 --> 0:38:45.060
<v Speaker 1>thought of. I was like, Oh, no, that's too dark.

0:38:45.370 --> 0:38:49.239
<v Speaker 1>So it took me a long time to figure out

0:38:49.250 --> 0:38:50.279
<v Speaker 1>what it was

0:38:51.219 --> 0:38:54.159
<v Speaker 1>that had happened. And I guess I I just fighting

0:38:54.169 --> 0:38:55.260
<v Speaker 1>until I figured it out.

0:38:55.580 --> 0:38:59.120
<v Speaker 2>So you very much, uh, learn things as you go writer.

0:39:00.489 --> 0:39:04.509
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, As soon as I tried to plan the books,

0:39:04.520 --> 0:39:07.530
<v Speaker 1>they're just boring. I'm just so bored. I'm like going Oh,

0:39:07.540 --> 0:39:10.540
<v Speaker 1>this is just boring. And I keep telling myself my

0:39:10.550 --> 0:39:13.000
<v Speaker 1>life would be so much easier if I planned. And

0:39:13.010 --> 0:39:15.379
<v Speaker 1>I think all of us pans say that our life

0:39:15.389 --> 0:39:17.669
<v Speaker 1>would be so much easier if we planned, but there's

0:39:17.679 --> 0:39:21.790
<v Speaker 1>something about for me. How I come up with ideas

0:39:22.320 --> 0:39:24.790
<v Speaker 1>is when my fingers are on the keys. That's what

0:39:24.800 --> 0:39:26.840
<v Speaker 1>generates ideas in my head. It doesn't matter if sitting

0:39:26.850 --> 0:39:28.590
<v Speaker 1>there with a whiteboard I could look at it all

0:39:28.600 --> 0:39:29.719
<v Speaker 1>day long. I wouldn't be able to think of a

0:39:29.729 --> 0:39:32.239
<v Speaker 1>single idea. I have to be type to come up

0:39:32.250 --> 0:39:32.360
<v Speaker 1>with

0:39:32.370 --> 0:39:36.629
<v Speaker 2>ideas. I'm exactly the same I find, and I should

0:39:36.639 --> 0:39:38.370
<v Speaker 2>have realised this years ago. But I said to my

0:39:38.379 --> 0:39:40.510
<v Speaker 2>husband the other day, actually about horse riding, I said,

0:39:40.520 --> 0:39:43.340
<v Speaker 2>I'm just thinking I'm a really slow learner he said,

0:39:43.350 --> 0:39:45.279
<v Speaker 2>which he probably nailed it. He said, No, you just

0:39:45.290 --> 0:39:48.129
<v Speaker 2>don't have enough confidence in your own ability. But anyway,

0:39:48.139 --> 0:39:50.659
<v Speaker 2>that's a whole other story. But I find with

0:39:51.159 --> 0:39:53.500
<v Speaker 2>writing and what I'm working out with, this one I'm

0:39:53.510 --> 0:39:56.310
<v Speaker 2>working on now is that part of the whole thing,

0:39:56.320 --> 0:40:00.159
<v Speaker 2>for with the pants thing for me is being in

0:40:00.169 --> 0:40:03.580
<v Speaker 2>that character's skin in that moment, or at the end

0:40:03.590 --> 0:40:05.939
<v Speaker 2>of that scene that you've just written and thinking,

0:40:06.800 --> 0:40:08.870
<v Speaker 2>What am I going to do now or what would

0:40:08.879 --> 0:40:11.529
<v Speaker 2>she do next? Or what could happen that would really

0:40:11.540 --> 0:40:13.810
<v Speaker 2>throw her world into turmoil. But I've got to be

0:40:13.820 --> 0:40:15.709
<v Speaker 2>in that moment to work it out. Yeah,

0:40:16.129 --> 0:40:18.260
<v Speaker 1>I'm the same, and I think that's why I do it.

0:40:18.270 --> 0:40:19.760
<v Speaker 1>It's And then, at the end of the day, I

0:40:20.959 --> 0:40:24.069
<v Speaker 1>Oh my God, who knew who knew that would happen?

0:40:24.080 --> 0:40:26.879
<v Speaker 1>I certainly didn't, and and I'm addicted to that feeling.

0:40:27.110 --> 0:40:29.520
<v Speaker 2>And I guess if you're creating that feeling for yourself,

0:40:29.530 --> 0:40:31.939
<v Speaker 2>then you're also creating it for your readers, aren't you?

0:40:33.429 --> 0:40:35.779
<v Speaker 1>Yes, but then I went and I had to turn

0:40:35.790 --> 0:40:39.000
<v Speaker 1>this book back to front because my publisher said It's

0:40:39.010 --> 0:40:41.399
<v Speaker 1>too much of a contemporary. So

0:40:41.600 --> 0:40:43.929
<v Speaker 2>tell us about that. How did you go about doing that?

0:40:44.459 --> 0:40:48.679
<v Speaker 1>He wanted a plan, Pam. Oh, no. And I was

0:40:48.689 --> 0:40:49.649
<v Speaker 1>like a plan.

0:40:50.709 --> 0:40:54.120
<v Speaker 1>And so I do. I have pulled out the spreadsheet

0:40:54.689 --> 0:40:56.729
<v Speaker 1>in the past during editing,

0:40:57.370 --> 0:40:59.830
<v Speaker 1>when I'd been asked to do trick tricky things in

0:40:59.840 --> 0:41:03.659
<v Speaker 1>editing because when I'm writing, I have a very firm

0:41:03.669 --> 0:41:06.699
<v Speaker 1>hold on what's happening, where and what's happening when, and

0:41:06.709 --> 0:41:08.149
<v Speaker 1>I have a really good hold in it. But as

0:41:08.159 --> 0:41:11.610
<v Speaker 1>soon as you start shifting things around, you lose that

0:41:11.620 --> 0:41:15.799
<v Speaker 1>hold you, you become confused really quickly about and crime

0:41:15.810 --> 0:41:20.489
<v Speaker 1>is different. It's You can ruin the book, really. But

0:41:20.500 --> 0:41:23.169
<v Speaker 1>if you move things around in the wrong way, you

0:41:23.179 --> 0:41:26.589
<v Speaker 1>can completely ruin the book. So he insisted

0:41:27.090 --> 0:41:30.669
<v Speaker 1>on a plan. So I had to do a chapter.

0:41:30.879 --> 0:41:34.790
<v Speaker 1>I did a spreadsheet just with chapter summaries for him,

0:41:35.620 --> 0:41:39.419
<v Speaker 1>and it was really reorganising my chapters. But it was

0:41:39.429 --> 0:41:41.770
<v Speaker 1>like I was like, I can't believe I'm doing this.

0:41:41.780 --> 0:41:45.280
<v Speaker 1>I cannot believe it doing a plan for this edit

0:41:45.290 --> 0:41:47.699
<v Speaker 1>where normally I would just dive in, I would normally

0:41:47.709 --> 0:41:50.439
<v Speaker 1>dive in. But in retrospect, it was very good advice,

0:41:50.449 --> 0:41:52.638
<v Speaker 1>because what I was trying to do was a lot

0:41:52.649 --> 0:41:56.399
<v Speaker 1>more complicated than what I thought it was. I said

0:41:56.409 --> 0:41:58.110
<v Speaker 1>to myself when he said, Oh, I think you need

0:41:58.120 --> 0:42:00.030
<v Speaker 1>to start at the concert. We need to start at

0:42:00.040 --> 0:42:02.020
<v Speaker 1>the concert and then flash back in time and I

0:42:02.030 --> 0:42:02.370
<v Speaker 1>was like,

0:42:02.820 --> 0:42:06.010
<v Speaker 1>That's easy. I've done that before. I've done flashbacks before.

0:42:06.020 --> 0:42:09.669
<v Speaker 1>That's easy, but actually wasn't easy

0:42:10.409 --> 0:42:12.580
<v Speaker 1>at all, and in fact, it turned out to probably

0:42:12.590 --> 0:42:16.189
<v Speaker 1>be one of the most difficult rewrites I've ever

0:42:16.199 --> 0:42:19.370
<v Speaker 2>done. Wow. So you'd already written the draught were you

0:42:19.379 --> 0:42:22.620
<v Speaker 2>shuffling scenes that you already had? Did you then have

0:42:22.629 --> 0:42:25.169
<v Speaker 2>to add new bits and new perspectives and heaps?

0:42:25.360 --> 0:42:28.840
<v Speaker 1>Loads of new bits, No new perspectives but loads of

0:42:28.919 --> 0:42:32.540
<v Speaker 1>And the story in itself didn't change except for the

0:42:32.550 --> 0:42:34.439
<v Speaker 1>who did it. The who did it did change, but

0:42:34.449 --> 0:42:36.189
<v Speaker 1>the story in itself

0:42:36.909 --> 0:42:41.839
<v Speaker 1>didn't change. But the changing the timing of the story

0:42:42.239 --> 0:42:45.009
<v Speaker 1>meant that there was a lot of back and forth.

0:42:45.100 --> 0:42:47.649
<v Speaker 1>So even if you look at how the book starts

0:42:47.659 --> 0:42:50.540
<v Speaker 1>that very first chapter, I had to say who all

0:42:50.550 --> 0:42:52.550
<v Speaker 1>the people were that were involved, even though there's a

0:42:52.560 --> 0:42:55.590
<v Speaker 1>lot of names early on because I can't pretend they

0:42:55.600 --> 0:42:58.729
<v Speaker 1>don't exist. Whereas with the previous version, I was able

0:42:58.739 --> 0:43:02.449
<v Speaker 1>to introduce the characters in a much more gradual way.

0:43:02.790 --> 0:43:07.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that type of thing where I can't deny there's

0:43:07.530 --> 0:43:09.939
<v Speaker 1>a big thing. There's a few big things happening here.

0:43:11.110 --> 0:43:13.409
<v Speaker 1>I can't just show them getting ready for the concert

0:43:13.530 --> 0:43:17.850
<v Speaker 1>without showing their concern about these big things that are happening.

0:43:18.179 --> 0:43:22.139
<v Speaker 1>And so it was extremely tricky to was extremely tricky

0:43:22.149 --> 0:43:23.689
<v Speaker 1>not to trick the reader, really.

0:43:24.030 --> 0:43:26.889
<v Speaker 1>I had to be honest with the reader about what

0:43:26.899 --> 0:43:29.169
<v Speaker 1>was going through their head at the time while they

0:43:29.179 --> 0:43:31.379
<v Speaker 1>were getting ready for the concert. And then also there

0:43:31.389 --> 0:43:36.520
<v Speaker 1>was necessary repetition. There was necessary repetition because I had

0:43:36.530 --> 0:43:39.129
<v Speaker 1>to help the reader navigate back and forth

0:43:39.379 --> 0:43:40.949
<v Speaker 2>with the time frame with the

0:43:40.959 --> 0:43:44.500
<v Speaker 1>time frame and and I think to the rewrite I must.

0:43:44.510 --> 0:43:47.340
<v Speaker 1>I think I added at least 20,000 words that then

0:43:47.350 --> 0:43:50.469
<v Speaker 1>later axed in different places. But

0:43:50.879 --> 0:43:55.560
<v Speaker 1>it was much more complicated than it was initially. That's

0:43:55.580 --> 0:43:57.810
<v Speaker 1>not a problem. No problem. I can do this and

0:43:57.820 --> 0:43:58.830
<v Speaker 1>then ive

0:43:58.840 --> 0:44:00.459
<v Speaker 2>written 11. I can do this.

0:44:01.250 --> 0:44:07.590
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I was definitely overconfident and underestimated what was involved

0:44:07.600 --> 0:44:11.000
<v Speaker 1>in it. I very quickly I realised, Oh, I'm going

0:44:11.010 --> 0:44:12.919
<v Speaker 1>to start with a new file and the file is

0:44:12.929 --> 0:44:13.590
<v Speaker 1>going to be blank.

0:44:14.409 --> 0:44:17.179
<v Speaker 1>And I will copy and paste, but I'll only copy

0:44:17.189 --> 0:44:17.820
<v Speaker 1>and paste

0:44:18.570 --> 0:44:22.939
<v Speaker 1>once I know that is that's belongs in there. So

0:44:22.949 --> 0:44:24.120
<v Speaker 1>I did build it up from

0:44:25.340 --> 0:44:27.770
<v Speaker 2>Wow, that was gonna be my next question. Actually. How

0:44:27.780 --> 0:44:31.110
<v Speaker 2>did you practically manage that? Like I was at my

0:44:31.120 --> 0:44:33.820
<v Speaker 2>writing group today at the in, the lovely Joan Mill

0:44:33.830 --> 0:44:36.600
<v Speaker 2>was there, So she has seen cards where she writes

0:44:36.800 --> 0:44:40.419
<v Speaker 2>a summary of what's happening and because now she's on

0:44:40.429 --> 0:44:42.270
<v Speaker 2>book number six or whatever. So she knows

0:44:43.060 --> 0:44:47.419
<v Speaker 2>roughly the kind of structure that she's using. So you'll

0:44:47.429 --> 0:44:49.889
<v Speaker 2>have index cards, and I have used index cards a

0:44:49.899 --> 0:44:52.760
<v Speaker 2>lot in the past myself. But yeah, so you started

0:44:52.770 --> 0:44:55.669
<v Speaker 2>with a black document. You had your draught And was

0:44:55.679 --> 0:44:57.959
<v Speaker 2>it then a matter of just pulling things out and

0:44:57.969 --> 0:44:59.080
<v Speaker 2>moving them around

0:44:59.929 --> 0:45:02.810
<v Speaker 1>Page one? And I said, OK, it's the day of

0:45:02.820 --> 0:45:03.659
<v Speaker 1>the concert.

0:45:04.419 --> 0:45:07.600
<v Speaker 1>What can I use? And then I massaged it, and

0:45:07.610 --> 0:45:10.090
<v Speaker 1>once I was happy with what I had massaged, I

0:45:10.100 --> 0:45:13.029
<v Speaker 1>then went OK, Now they're walking to the concert. What

0:45:13.040 --> 0:45:16.179
<v Speaker 1>can I keep? And then I brought in that, and

0:45:16.189 --> 0:45:20.080
<v Speaker 1>then I massaged it to change it and and I

0:45:20.110 --> 0:45:24.000
<v Speaker 1>built it up like that. And then it became very obvious. OK,

0:45:24.010 --> 0:45:26.250
<v Speaker 1>I need this extra scene here, and I need this

0:45:26.260 --> 0:45:29.719
<v Speaker 1>extra scene there, and I put those in as I went.

0:45:29.729 --> 0:45:32.679
<v Speaker 1>I didn't allow myself go forward or go back

0:45:33.010 --> 0:45:36.759
<v Speaker 1>without OK putting in what I needed. And even if

0:45:36.770 --> 0:45:40.159
<v Speaker 1>it meant new writing, yeah, because

0:45:40.169 --> 0:45:43.000
<v Speaker 2>it does move around in time like we go back.

0:45:43.010 --> 0:45:45.459
<v Speaker 2>But then it comes back to the concept like there's

0:45:45.469 --> 0:45:47.750
<v Speaker 2>a lot of time shuffling. I'm terrible with timeline. It's

0:45:47.760 --> 0:45:51.100
<v Speaker 2>my worst nightmare. But how did you work out how

0:45:51.110 --> 0:45:53.050
<v Speaker 2>far back to go and when to put in a

0:45:53.060 --> 0:45:55.138
<v Speaker 2>scene from three weeks ago,

0:45:55.209 --> 0:45:57.909
<v Speaker 2>as opposed to a scene from three hours before they

0:45:57.919 --> 0:45:59.149
<v Speaker 2>went to the concert? That was the

0:45:59.159 --> 0:46:01.659
<v Speaker 1>easier part. The going back was the easy part because

0:46:01.669 --> 0:46:05.530
<v Speaker 1>I had written that kind of in a more intact,

0:46:05.540 --> 0:46:08.280
<v Speaker 1>I guess in. That's how the novel had originally started.

0:46:08.290 --> 0:46:11.429
<v Speaker 1>It originally started four months before the concert, so when

0:46:11.439 --> 0:46:12.939
<v Speaker 1>you're flashing back to four months,

0:46:13.669 --> 0:46:17.649
<v Speaker 1>that was needed, massaging and needed fixing and a few

0:46:17.659 --> 0:46:21.719
<v Speaker 1>extra things put in and but it was largely written.

0:46:22.070 --> 0:46:24.929
<v Speaker 1>But it was the current time that caused me the

0:46:24.939 --> 0:46:27.489
<v Speaker 1>biggest trouble, because I had to elongate

0:46:28.179 --> 0:46:29.739
<v Speaker 1>what was happening at the concert,

0:46:30.250 --> 0:46:32.949
<v Speaker 1>and I had to do that in a way that

0:46:33.189 --> 0:46:35.379
<v Speaker 1>didn't give away what was going to happen in the

0:46:35.389 --> 0:46:39.919
<v Speaker 1>next novel. A lot of what's happening at the concert

0:46:40.010 --> 0:46:42.310
<v Speaker 1>is new, and a lot of what you flash back

0:46:42.320 --> 0:46:44.389
<v Speaker 1>to was, Pre-existing

0:46:44.600 --> 0:46:47.020
<v Speaker 2>did you have to kill a lot of darlings. Were

0:46:47.030 --> 0:46:48.620
<v Speaker 2>a lot of darlings left out?

0:46:49.250 --> 0:46:52.149
<v Speaker 1>No, actually, I had to. No, I didn't have to

0:46:52.159 --> 0:46:55.350
<v Speaker 1>kill any darlings. And I know I'm the worst person

0:46:55.360 --> 0:46:58.629
<v Speaker 1>ever for having too many characters. Honestly,

0:46:59.020 --> 0:47:00.679
<v Speaker 1>Every time I write a book, I'm like going, Oh

0:47:00.689 --> 0:47:03.620
<v Speaker 1>my God, can you just cut out the the number

0:47:03.629 --> 0:47:06.610
<v Speaker 1>of characters? It's I drive myself mad, but I just

0:47:06.620 --> 0:47:07.840
<v Speaker 1>don't know how to make it real.

0:47:08.719 --> 0:47:10.879
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it didn't confuse me. The number of characters

0:47:10.889 --> 0:47:13.409
<v Speaker 1>I didn't have to kill A and Dave Darlings, but

0:47:13.419 --> 0:47:18.750
<v Speaker 1>I did struggle with, I guess, the introduction of those

0:47:18.760 --> 0:47:23.469
<v Speaker 1>darlings because of the structure they came, all came at once,

0:47:23.479 --> 0:47:25.129
<v Speaker 1>and they needed to all come at once because we

0:47:25.139 --> 0:47:28.379
<v Speaker 1>are at the climax of the book at the start,

0:47:28.389 --> 0:47:30.449
<v Speaker 1>and so you can't pretend that they don't exist.

0:47:30.830 --> 0:47:33.449
<v Speaker 2>You have to. You had to change the structure in

0:47:33.459 --> 0:47:35.000
<v Speaker 2>order to up the tension.

0:47:35.370 --> 0:47:37.760
<v Speaker 2>What were some of the other things that you did

0:47:37.770 --> 0:47:41.020
<v Speaker 2>at a page or chapter level in terms of really

0:47:41.030 --> 0:47:43.169
<v Speaker 2>making sure that there was plenty of tension in there?

0:47:43.590 --> 0:47:44.379
<v Speaker 2>I had a lot of

0:47:44.389 --> 0:47:47.560
<v Speaker 1>this in there, But it was in It was delivered

0:47:47.570 --> 0:47:51.199
<v Speaker 1>in a more gentle way. And I do remember my

0:47:51.209 --> 0:47:54.699
<v Speaker 1>publisher saying to me, he said, You've gone there anyway, Burr.

0:47:54.800 --> 0:47:58.189
<v Speaker 1>By the end of the novel, you have gone fairly dark.

0:47:58.709 --> 0:48:01.020
<v Speaker 1>So you're I don't know what you're trying to avoid.

0:48:01.399 --> 0:48:04.299
<v Speaker 1>And so I guess that was really interesting. One thing

0:48:04.310 --> 0:48:05.620
<v Speaker 1>I would say I did have to do was I

0:48:05.629 --> 0:48:08.610
<v Speaker 1>had to miss those red herrings

0:48:09.689 --> 0:48:12.549
<v Speaker 1>of which there was quite a number. Actually, I think

0:48:12.560 --> 0:48:15.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm learning how to write crime as I go. I

0:48:15.030 --> 0:48:17.388
<v Speaker 1>don't know all the rules. Do you know what I mean?

0:48:17.520 --> 0:48:17.810
<v Speaker 1>Which

0:48:17.820 --> 0:48:19.669
<v Speaker 2>might be the thing that you don't know. The rules,

0:48:19.800 --> 0:48:24.029
<v Speaker 1>the rules, I don't know. And so apparently I had.

0:48:24.040 --> 0:48:26.709
<v Speaker 1>And this is from an old friend, Govern, who

0:48:27.219 --> 0:48:30.560
<v Speaker 1>is really a bit like your inky She's like my

0:48:30.600 --> 0:48:33.839
<v Speaker 1>inky Her opinion means a lot. And she's very you

0:48:33.879 --> 0:48:36.260
<v Speaker 1>won't kill off any of these red herrings. I should point.

0:48:36.270 --> 0:48:38.600
<v Speaker 1>And I was like, Ok, yeah, I guess because you

0:48:38.610 --> 0:48:40.600
<v Speaker 1>really write crime and you really know what you're doing.

0:48:40.610 --> 0:48:43.080
<v Speaker 1>I didn't really know what to do. I am a

0:48:43.090 --> 0:48:45.020
<v Speaker 1>bit of a novice. I think when it comes to

0:48:45.030 --> 0:48:46.340
<v Speaker 1>writing this genre, it didn't

0:48:46.350 --> 0:48:48.110
<v Speaker 2>read like you're a novice, but and one of the

0:48:48.120 --> 0:48:50.760
<v Speaker 2>things that I loved were the kind of, particularly

0:48:51.209 --> 0:48:54.610
<v Speaker 2>at the beginning. There is different lengths of chapters, but

0:48:54.620 --> 0:48:58.239
<v Speaker 2>those really short, snappy chapters I found

0:48:58.840 --> 0:49:02.979
<v Speaker 2>were really compelling and just really helped add that tension

0:49:02.989 --> 0:49:05.370
<v Speaker 2>and that sense that Oh, I want to read the

0:49:05.379 --> 0:49:07.860
<v Speaker 2>next chapter to find out what happens for the next character.

0:49:08.929 --> 0:49:11.330
<v Speaker 1>OK, Oh, that's good. That's good. Actually, that was one

0:49:11.340 --> 0:49:15.138
<v Speaker 1>other thing that was very challenging. These two teen voices.

0:49:15.149 --> 0:49:18.300
<v Speaker 1>I haven't done that before. I don't know if I

0:49:18.310 --> 0:49:19.239
<v Speaker 1>will do that again,

0:49:19.889 --> 0:49:22.729
<v Speaker 1>and that's not easy. Lucky I had some experts in

0:49:22.739 --> 0:49:23.779
<v Speaker 1>the house. Yeah,

0:49:23.790 --> 0:49:25.979
<v Speaker 2>that's right. Yeah, I'd say you've got four point of

0:49:25.989 --> 0:49:30.229
<v Speaker 2>view characters. Did you see any one of those characters

0:49:30.239 --> 0:49:32.560
<v Speaker 2>as your kind of main character? Or do you feel

0:49:32.570 --> 0:49:34.709
<v Speaker 2>that they were all pretty much equal in terms of

0:49:34.719 --> 0:49:35.860
<v Speaker 2>the level of importance

0:49:35.870 --> 0:49:38.449
<v Speaker 1>to them When I started off, I think Rachel was

0:49:38.459 --> 0:49:42.020
<v Speaker 1>my main character. She's the mom and al always, because

0:49:42.159 --> 0:49:45.479
<v Speaker 1>you can identify with the mom more because you are

0:49:45.489 --> 0:49:47.659
<v Speaker 1>a mom and she's closer in age to you.

0:49:48.780 --> 0:49:51.709
<v Speaker 1>But I guess as the book went on, the other

0:49:51.719 --> 0:49:55.959
<v Speaker 1>characters got stronger. They got stronger and and by the end,

0:49:55.969 --> 0:49:58.790
<v Speaker 1>certainly Bridie has come to the fore a lot more.

0:49:58.800 --> 0:50:02.320
<v Speaker 1>And the dad has come to the poor a lot more,

0:50:02.949 --> 0:50:07.760
<v Speaker 1>and they've all garnered sympathy. And in some ways, Rachel,

0:50:07.770 --> 0:50:10.270
<v Speaker 1>I guess because of some of her decisions,

0:50:11.239 --> 0:50:16.219
<v Speaker 1>some people judge her quite harshly. I didn't judge her harshly,

0:50:16.229 --> 0:50:19.520
<v Speaker 1>but I think some readers do judge her harshly. So

0:50:19.530 --> 0:50:22.540
<v Speaker 1>the different voices in this book were a challenge as well.

0:50:22.550 --> 0:50:27.000
<v Speaker 1>And through every rewrite I was constantly trying to improve them.

0:50:27.469 --> 0:50:29.530
<v Speaker 1>There was one discussion here one night where we had

0:50:29.540 --> 0:50:32.600
<v Speaker 1>a big family debate about what you would call drug

0:50:32.610 --> 0:50:36.620
<v Speaker 1>goes and druggies and what different age groups call them.

0:50:37.219 --> 0:50:40.540
<v Speaker 1>And so even between my now 21 year old and

0:50:40.550 --> 0:50:43.429
<v Speaker 1>19 year old, there's different lingo. There's different. They use

0:50:43.439 --> 0:50:46.399
<v Speaker 1>different words. It was that was an ongoing challenge throughout

0:50:46.409 --> 0:50:47.439
<v Speaker 1>the noble, trying to

0:50:47.939 --> 0:50:50.719
<v Speaker 1>channel as teen voices and also in a way that

0:50:50.729 --> 0:50:54.070
<v Speaker 1>mature adults want to read because we don't always want

0:50:54.080 --> 0:50:57.560
<v Speaker 1>to read from the point of view of much younger people.

0:50:57.570 --> 0:50:58.020
<v Speaker 1>But I think

0:50:58.030 --> 0:51:01.810
<v Speaker 2>one thing that having those multiple point of view characters does,

0:51:01.820 --> 0:51:04.909
<v Speaker 2>and you did distinguish their voices really beautifully. So we

0:51:04.919 --> 0:51:08.159
<v Speaker 2>knew as each chapter moved on, we got to the

0:51:08.169 --> 0:51:11.610
<v Speaker 2>next person. There was a really distinct sound to the voice,

0:51:11.620 --> 0:51:14.310
<v Speaker 2>and Bridie's voice was different to her mother's and et cetera,

0:51:14.320 --> 0:51:16.810
<v Speaker 2>et cetera, the other two as well. But I think

0:51:16.820 --> 0:51:17.759
<v Speaker 2>one of the things that

0:51:18.399 --> 0:51:21.739
<v Speaker 2>that that does swapping point of views is it really

0:51:21.750 --> 0:51:25.770
<v Speaker 2>does help with that, upping the tension because we get

0:51:25.780 --> 0:51:28.899
<v Speaker 2>into one character's skin and one character's head and perspective,

0:51:29.290 --> 0:51:32.780
<v Speaker 2>and we're empathising with that character. Uh, but then that

0:51:32.790 --> 0:51:35.500
<v Speaker 2>stops and we're into the next character. So you automatically

0:51:35.510 --> 0:51:37.530
<v Speaker 2>wanna know. No, I wanna go back and see what

0:51:37.649 --> 0:51:40.319
<v Speaker 2>what's happening with Rachel next. So it pulls you through

0:51:40.330 --> 0:51:45.500
<v Speaker 2>the story because you are constantly shifting character, experience and I.

0:51:45.510 --> 0:51:47.179
<v Speaker 2>I find that really compelling

0:51:47.489 --> 0:51:51.229
<v Speaker 1>as crime writers. Different point of view is our friend.

0:51:51.239 --> 0:51:53.770
<v Speaker 1>It's different than our friend. It gives us a chance

0:51:53.780 --> 0:51:57.219
<v Speaker 1>to leave someone in a real predicament

0:51:57.959 --> 0:52:02.050
<v Speaker 1>and then go on to something else. and then write

0:52:02.060 --> 0:52:05.100
<v Speaker 1>that person into predicament and then go back. And it

0:52:05.110 --> 0:52:08.739
<v Speaker 1>helps us hugely in terms of writing the

0:52:08.750 --> 0:52:13.739
<v Speaker 2>novel when you finish that whole restructuring thing, Did you know,

0:52:13.750 --> 0:52:16.719
<v Speaker 2>like immediately? Yes, that's it. I've got it. I

0:52:16.729 --> 0:52:19.350
<v Speaker 1>didn't know. Yes, I got it. And I was actually

0:52:19.360 --> 0:52:22.250
<v Speaker 1>really nervous. I was really nervous because I'd gotten from

0:52:22.260 --> 0:52:24.560
<v Speaker 1>a novel. I thought that I really knew what the

0:52:24.570 --> 0:52:26.840
<v Speaker 1>kind of flash points were to a novel where I

0:52:26.850 --> 0:52:27.169
<v Speaker 1>didn't

0:52:27.979 --> 0:52:31.379
<v Speaker 1>know any more of what the flashpoints were. And so

0:52:31.389 --> 0:52:34.060
<v Speaker 1>before I handed it back to my publisher, I gave

0:52:34.070 --> 0:52:38.379
<v Speaker 1>it to more readers than what I've ever done before. Oh, really? Yeah. I.

0:52:38.389 --> 0:52:40.350
<v Speaker 1>I think I gave it to about six or seven

0:52:40.360 --> 0:52:42.939
<v Speaker 1>people to read it to see. Did they know who

0:52:42.949 --> 0:52:43.459
<v Speaker 1>did it?

0:52:44.280 --> 0:52:47.509
<v Speaker 1>Did the bombing of who did it come at the

0:52:47.520 --> 0:52:50.339
<v Speaker 1>right time? Did they believe it? And whilst their feedback

0:52:50.350 --> 0:52:54.139
<v Speaker 1>reassured me, they all had very valuable things to say

0:52:54.149 --> 0:52:58.780
<v Speaker 1>to say still, and I'm always extremely grateful for

0:52:59.929 --> 0:53:04.580
<v Speaker 1>people who read your books and very kindly lend their

0:53:04.590 --> 0:53:08.709
<v Speaker 1>intelligence to the plot and help you make you a

0:53:08.719 --> 0:53:11.610
<v Speaker 1>better book and I. I think I had achieved the

0:53:11.620 --> 0:53:14.179
<v Speaker 1>main things I said I had to do. But obviously

0:53:14.189 --> 0:53:16.899
<v Speaker 1>when you've done a restructure to that level,

0:53:17.199 --> 0:53:20.459
<v Speaker 1>there's always some small things that you haven't addressed and

0:53:20.469 --> 0:53:23.909
<v Speaker 1>you need fresh eyes on the book. And and so be.

0:53:24.110 --> 0:53:26.540
<v Speaker 1>Before I sent it back, I had given it to

0:53:26.550 --> 0:53:29.870
<v Speaker 1>six other readers. And so by the time I'd taken

0:53:29.879 --> 0:53:32.698
<v Speaker 1>their feedback on board, which wasn't

0:53:34.270 --> 0:53:36.610
<v Speaker 1>drastic by any means, but it made me feel a

0:53:36.620 --> 0:53:39.340
<v Speaker 1>lot more confident with what I was heading back. And

0:53:39.350 --> 0:53:41.129
<v Speaker 2>was it a thumbs up from your editor? Then

0:53:42.360 --> 0:53:44.830
<v Speaker 1>it was a thumbs up, but they were horrified by

0:53:44.840 --> 0:53:46.060
<v Speaker 1>how long the book had

0:53:46.070 --> 0:53:49.339
<v Speaker 2>become. Oh, really? Now it's too long. Go and cut

0:53:49.350 --> 0:53:51.779
<v Speaker 1>some of it I had to delete. I think they

0:53:51.790 --> 0:53:55.929
<v Speaker 1>wanted me to delete 15,000 words, but I deleted 10,000

0:53:55.939 --> 0:53:59.009
<v Speaker 1>words in a line edit and then another 2000 during

0:53:59.020 --> 0:53:59.320
<v Speaker 1>copy

0:53:59.330 --> 0:54:00.540
<v Speaker 2>Edit. Wow,

0:54:01.020 --> 0:54:04.939
<v Speaker 2>think the that tightening that you did just improved it

0:54:04.949 --> 0:54:07.239
<v Speaker 2>even further because I think one of the things with

0:54:07.250 --> 0:54:11.370
<v Speaker 2>that Pacey sort of high tension reading is that there's

0:54:11.379 --> 0:54:14.919
<v Speaker 2>no extraneous words, and I think you've really nailed that.

0:54:15.719 --> 0:54:17.830
<v Speaker 1>Oh, thank you. It's so hard to know when you've

0:54:17.840 --> 0:54:21.199
<v Speaker 1>changed it that profoundly and again. As I said, I

0:54:21.209 --> 0:54:22.959
<v Speaker 1>was trying to help the reader with the back and

0:54:22.969 --> 0:54:25.959
<v Speaker 1>forth so that they wouldn't be confused about what was

0:54:25.969 --> 0:54:27.659
<v Speaker 1>happening before and what was happening after.

0:54:27.780 --> 0:54:29.810
<v Speaker 2>So you have chapter headings for that, don't you?

0:54:30.010 --> 0:54:32.340
<v Speaker 1>I do have chapter headings, but the reader still needs

0:54:32.350 --> 0:54:36.409
<v Speaker 1>reminding of the time and what's happening with time. You

0:54:36.419 --> 0:54:39.820
<v Speaker 1>need to help them a little, and really honestly, Pam,

0:54:39.830 --> 0:54:42.419
<v Speaker 1>probably it was the most, and I've done some hard

0:54:42.429 --> 0:54:44.179
<v Speaker 1>rewrites in my day. I really have

0:54:45.060 --> 0:54:47.500
<v Speaker 1>this book was it was very easy to write. That

0:54:47.510 --> 0:54:51.080
<v Speaker 1>first draught was probably the most difficult restructuring I've ever

0:54:51.090 --> 0:54:54.639
<v Speaker 1>done because normally when hard restructuring is deleting characters or

0:54:54.649 --> 0:54:57.120
<v Speaker 1>combining chapters or doing all that sort of things can

0:54:57.129 --> 0:54:59.989
<v Speaker 1>all be very tricky. But this

0:55:01.280 --> 0:55:03.030
<v Speaker 1>was just next to trick.

0:55:03.379 --> 0:55:06.179
<v Speaker 2>And were you working to a deadline? I imagine, too.

0:55:06.189 --> 0:55:06.419
<v Speaker 2>But

0:55:08.449 --> 0:55:09.949
<v Speaker 1>yeah, and I don't sit at my desk. If I

0:55:09.959 --> 0:55:11.569
<v Speaker 1>change the camera, you would see where I write, which

0:55:11.580 --> 0:55:13.949
<v Speaker 1>is literally an armchair. It's very bad for my posture.

0:55:14.290 --> 0:55:16.399
<v Speaker 1>I sit in an armchair with my laptop on my

0:55:16.409 --> 0:55:18.419
<v Speaker 1>lap and again it's a bit something. I need to

0:55:18.429 --> 0:55:21.360
<v Speaker 1>be in that position before I can write right. And

0:55:21.370 --> 0:55:24.290
<v Speaker 1>if I try and write at a table or a desk,

0:55:24.800 --> 0:55:25.370
<v Speaker 1>I can't do

0:55:25.379 --> 0:55:27.759
<v Speaker 2>it. Isn't that funny? We all have our little quirks.

0:55:27.770 --> 0:55:28.429
<v Speaker 2>It's amazing.

0:55:28.449 --> 0:55:31.550
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's whatever releases that creativity in your head, it writes.

0:55:31.979 --> 0:55:35.379
<v Speaker 1>But I sat in an armchair for so long, I

0:55:35.389 --> 0:55:38.620
<v Speaker 1>got swollen ankles. Oh, no, I have never It was

0:55:38.629 --> 0:55:40.439
<v Speaker 1>like being in a long haul flight. I was like,

0:55:40.449 --> 0:55:44.629
<v Speaker 1>What has happened in my leg? So there's something. And

0:55:44.639 --> 0:55:46.770
<v Speaker 1>then I realised it was because I've been sitting here

0:55:46.780 --> 0:55:50.469
<v Speaker 1>for 12 hours a day. Moving. Yeah, yeah, that was

0:55:50.479 --> 0:55:52.419
<v Speaker 1>a new That was a new thing. Thank you. One

0:55:52.429 --> 0:55:54.719
<v Speaker 1>of us is missing for giving me swollen ankles.

0:55:55.909 --> 0:55:58.689
<v Speaker 2>I'm picturing you pulling on the compression socks or something,

0:55:58.699 --> 0:55:58.729
<v Speaker 2>and

0:55:59.860 --> 0:56:01.199
<v Speaker 1>it was full on

0:56:01.689 --> 0:56:05.050
<v Speaker 2>Oh, we haven't talked a lot about the characters and things.

0:56:05.060 --> 0:56:06.810
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to go too much into the actual

0:56:06.820 --> 0:56:10.770
<v Speaker 2>story because there it's very hard to avoid spoilers. You

0:56:10.780 --> 0:56:14.209
<v Speaker 2>mentioned earlier the secrets thing. So all of the characters

0:56:14.219 --> 0:56:16.129
<v Speaker 2>have secrets.

0:56:17.659 --> 0:56:21.279
<v Speaker 2>They're really important in kind of. There's some things that

0:56:21.290 --> 0:56:23.800
<v Speaker 2>the reader knows at some points that the other characters

0:56:23.810 --> 0:56:26.979
<v Speaker 2>don't know. The reader knows things about happening in the

0:56:26.989 --> 0:56:29.739
<v Speaker 2>background for some of the other characters. That Rachel, for instance,

0:56:29.750 --> 0:56:32.800
<v Speaker 2>might not know. Was that Al already there in your

0:56:32.810 --> 0:56:37.109
<v Speaker 2>initial story? Or did you deliberately plant some of those secrets?

0:56:37.120 --> 0:56:39.199
<v Speaker 2>Are they some of the red herrings you were talking about?

0:56:39.510 --> 0:56:43.469
<v Speaker 1>I think IR stakes for some of those things, but

0:56:43.479 --> 0:56:45.360
<v Speaker 1>they were all there, and that's what made the rewrite

0:56:45.370 --> 0:56:47.100
<v Speaker 1>so weird. And that's why I was saying, Why was

0:56:47.110 --> 0:56:48.129
<v Speaker 1>it so hard when

0:56:48.959 --> 0:56:53.780
<v Speaker 1>there was no characters deleted, There was no scenes deleted.

0:56:54.189 --> 0:56:56.780
<v Speaker 1>It was all adding it was adding to be able

0:56:56.790 --> 0:57:02.090
<v Speaker 1>to accommodate the new structure. But I did increase the

0:57:02.100 --> 0:57:06.310
<v Speaker 1>stakes with those particular secrets and and all the while

0:57:06.320 --> 0:57:09.179
<v Speaker 1>trying to it was very important to me that this

0:57:09.189 --> 0:57:12.340
<v Speaker 1>family was a likeable family and that they loved each other.

0:57:12.879 --> 0:57:15.560
<v Speaker 1>I was trying to make them a normal family that

0:57:15.899 --> 0:57:18.260
<v Speaker 1>have just been struggling with various things

0:57:18.790 --> 0:57:22.090
<v Speaker 1>rather than making them all toxic. So I was trying

0:57:22.100 --> 0:57:25.110
<v Speaker 1>to try it all the time. Sometimes having that type

0:57:25.120 --> 0:57:26.629
<v Speaker 1>of aim in crime fiction is all I

0:57:27.199 --> 0:57:30.610
<v Speaker 2>can imagine. You mentioned that word steak spur, and it's

0:57:30.620 --> 0:57:33.169
<v Speaker 2>something that every book I have to really think about,

0:57:33.179 --> 0:57:35.889
<v Speaker 2>and usually that's what I have to go back and

0:57:35.899 --> 0:57:39.800
<v Speaker 2>really increase, I think, is what's at stake for this character.

0:57:40.159 --> 0:57:43.030
<v Speaker 2>Can you talk a little bit about the importance or

0:57:43.040 --> 0:57:45.340
<v Speaker 2>in writing in general? And maybe in this book, in

0:57:45.350 --> 0:57:49.350
<v Speaker 2>particular for how important increasing those stakes are in terms

0:57:49.360 --> 0:57:52.679
<v Speaker 2>of creating that whole arc where you can pull the

0:57:52.689 --> 0:57:54.909
<v Speaker 2>reader through to the end of the story? I

0:57:54.919 --> 0:57:59.820
<v Speaker 1>think it's It's absolutely crucial, and the big thing we're

0:57:59.830 --> 0:58:04.780
<v Speaker 1>struggling with is increasing the stakes in a believable way

0:58:04.790 --> 0:58:07.570
<v Speaker 1>in a way. And also, if you manage to do

0:58:07.580 --> 0:58:09.179
<v Speaker 1>that in a believable way,

0:58:10.850 --> 0:58:14.830
<v Speaker 1>you will be, I guess they'll be hooked and they'll

0:58:14.840 --> 0:58:17.989
<v Speaker 1>be invested in the character. They will like these characters

0:58:18.000 --> 0:58:21.040
<v Speaker 1>and they will be seriously invested in them. And I

0:58:21.050 --> 0:58:23.370
<v Speaker 1>think when I was trying to increase the stakes and

0:58:23.379 --> 0:58:26.239
<v Speaker 1>I thought about this afterwards and even though while I

0:58:26.250 --> 0:58:29.530
<v Speaker 1>was doing it, I probably couldn't coherently tell you what

0:58:29.540 --> 0:58:31.780
<v Speaker 1>I was trying to do. But I, I think what

0:58:31.790 --> 0:58:34.780
<v Speaker 1>I did was I tried to increase the fear, their

0:58:34.790 --> 0:58:37.399
<v Speaker 1>fears and that on the night, as each of them

0:58:37.409 --> 0:58:38.669
<v Speaker 1>went into that stadium,

0:58:39.189 --> 0:58:42.219
<v Speaker 1>they each had different fears that they were grappling with.

0:58:42.229 --> 0:58:46.100
<v Speaker 1>Rachel had a serious illness, a life-threatening illness, and obviously

0:58:46.110 --> 0:58:48.419
<v Speaker 1>she was afraid for her future. She was afraid of

0:58:48.429 --> 0:58:50.409
<v Speaker 1>her Children being left motherless,

0:58:51.250 --> 0:58:57.030
<v Speaker 1>and Rory was afraid that his marriage wasn't the same

0:58:57.040 --> 0:58:59.429
<v Speaker 1>after that illness, and and he was afraid of speaking

0:58:59.439 --> 0:59:03.330
<v Speaker 1>up and rocking the boat in the marriage. And Emmett

0:59:03.340 --> 0:59:08.129
<v Speaker 1>is afraid of failure, as many teens are and Friday

0:59:08.139 --> 0:59:12.550
<v Speaker 1>is afraid of. She's lonely, essentially, she's really lonely, and

0:59:13.239 --> 0:59:17.320
<v Speaker 1>her family don't know the extent of her loneliness. And

0:59:17.330 --> 0:59:19.219
<v Speaker 1>so they carried all those fears in there

0:59:20.050 --> 0:59:23.870
<v Speaker 1>that night. And then when the worst thing happens, they realise. Actually,

0:59:25.020 --> 0:59:27.280
<v Speaker 1>the big fear is the fear of the unknown and

0:59:27.290 --> 0:59:30.040
<v Speaker 1>what has happened here and how. What have we done

0:59:30.050 --> 0:59:34.310
<v Speaker 1>to cause this situation? And I guess once I grasped

0:59:34.320 --> 0:59:38.760
<v Speaker 1>onto that fear that immediately I think raises the stakes

0:59:39.250 --> 0:59:41.718
<v Speaker 2>that's so important, but and just what you were saying

0:59:41.729 --> 0:59:44.419
<v Speaker 2>then I think that's about the believability and the fact

0:59:44.429 --> 0:59:46.689
<v Speaker 2>they are such an ordinary family. And I think that's

0:59:46.699 --> 0:59:48.709
<v Speaker 2>what you relate to as a reader. Certainly what I

0:59:48.719 --> 0:59:51.300
<v Speaker 2>related to is, even though you might not have been

0:59:51.310 --> 0:59:52.760
<v Speaker 2>in exactly that situation

0:59:53.060 --> 0:59:55.540
<v Speaker 2>as any of the characters, you've been in a similar

0:59:55.550 --> 0:59:58.560
<v Speaker 2>situation or people who have been in a similar situation.

0:59:58.570 --> 1:00:01.379
<v Speaker 2>Dealing with a life threatening illness and or having a

1:00:01.389 --> 1:00:03.959
<v Speaker 2>child who is having friendship issues at school and how

1:00:03.969 --> 1:00:06.600
<v Speaker 2>much that can impact on them. And the other thing

1:00:06.610 --> 1:00:10.360
<v Speaker 2>is also that sense of in a family of not

1:00:10.370 --> 1:00:13.050
<v Speaker 2>saying anything about those fears because you don't want to

1:00:13.060 --> 1:00:13.879
<v Speaker 2>upset others,

1:00:13.979 --> 1:00:17.179
<v Speaker 2>or that you're afraid that you're revealing something about yourself

1:00:17.189 --> 1:00:20.120
<v Speaker 2>that even your people closest to you don't know. You

1:00:20.129 --> 1:00:24.110
<v Speaker 2>really captured all that thought so nicely. Thank you, thank you.

1:00:24.120 --> 1:00:27.070
<v Speaker 2>There is a fair bit of police kind of procedure

1:00:27.080 --> 1:00:29.479
<v Speaker 2>at different parts of the book. How much research did

1:00:29.489 --> 1:00:31.679
<v Speaker 2>you have to do be into some of those kind

1:00:31.689 --> 1:00:34.840
<v Speaker 2>of technical aspects of policing that appear in the book?

1:00:35.219 --> 1:00:35.800
<v Speaker 1>I did

1:00:36.290 --> 1:00:38.989
<v Speaker 1>have to do a fair bit of research and and

1:00:39.000 --> 1:00:45.080
<v Speaker 1>I've found policing hard to search because a particular chief

1:00:45.090 --> 1:00:47.590
<v Speaker 1>inspector who helps me and a detective who helps me,

1:00:47.600 --> 1:00:50.189
<v Speaker 1>but they're really busy people said I have to choose

1:00:50.199 --> 1:00:53.090
<v Speaker 1>my questions really carefully. I will ask one question and

1:00:53.100 --> 1:00:54.760
<v Speaker 1>I will get a very quick response and then I

1:00:54.770 --> 1:00:56.320
<v Speaker 1>have to say OK, that's not what I thought. I'd

1:00:56.330 --> 1:00:59.790
<v Speaker 1>better alter this. I do have a criminal lawyer who

1:00:59.800 --> 1:01:03.139
<v Speaker 1>helps me and who helped me, particularly towards the end

1:01:03.149 --> 1:01:05.149
<v Speaker 1>of the novel. There's a scene towards the end of

1:01:05.159 --> 1:01:05.629
<v Speaker 1>the novel

1:01:06.010 --> 1:01:07.949
<v Speaker 1>that had I written it the way I had written,

1:01:07.959 --> 1:01:10.830
<v Speaker 1>it would have been completely inaccurate and he helped me

1:01:10.840 --> 1:01:13.330
<v Speaker 1>fashion that particular scene. And he's helped me now with

1:01:13.340 --> 1:01:14.790
<v Speaker 1>a number of my books

1:01:15.610 --> 1:01:18.370
<v Speaker 1>and he always says to me, You need to stop

1:01:18.379 --> 1:01:21.280
<v Speaker 1>stressing because if you look at what's on TV, it's

1:01:21.290 --> 1:01:25.159
<v Speaker 1>so inaccurate that this is actually way closer to the truth.

1:01:25.479 --> 1:01:27.899
<v Speaker 1>Even in its inaccurate form, it's way closer to the

1:01:27.909 --> 1:01:31.149
<v Speaker 1>truth than anything we watch on TV about crime

1:01:31.500 --> 1:01:33.610
<v Speaker 1>that he has helped me with a number of my

1:01:33.620 --> 1:01:36.810
<v Speaker 1>novels now, and I always imagine him in his kind

1:01:36.820 --> 1:01:40.000
<v Speaker 1>of city office, laughing at the the questions. I sent

1:01:40.010 --> 1:01:44.719
<v Speaker 1>them the very obscure questions at him, and and I

1:01:44.729 --> 1:01:49.090
<v Speaker 1>did very luckily know somebody who works in security in

1:01:49.100 --> 1:01:50.479
<v Speaker 1>a large stadium.

1:01:51.209 --> 1:01:56.050
<v Speaker 1>And he and this was during Covid. Actually, he let

1:01:56.060 --> 1:02:00.090
<v Speaker 1>me see what they can see through their CCTV and

1:02:00.100 --> 1:02:03.800
<v Speaker 1>how and their CCTV is a It's absolutely amazing. But

1:02:03.810 --> 1:02:06.689
<v Speaker 1>of course, it's useless when you've got 50,000 people there

1:02:06.699 --> 1:02:09.389
<v Speaker 1>because you can't see anything, but it is amazing. And

1:02:09.399 --> 1:02:12.860
<v Speaker 1>so he was also very helpful. I think the thing

1:02:12.870 --> 1:02:15.870
<v Speaker 1>when it comes to research now, with every single novel,

1:02:16.560 --> 1:02:19.840
<v Speaker 1>I have nothing to draw on myself. So I have

1:02:19.850 --> 1:02:24.250
<v Speaker 1>to read practically everything because everything is new and I'm

1:02:24.260 --> 1:02:28.129
<v Speaker 1>trying to write something that's fresh. Yeah, every time. But

1:02:28.139 --> 1:02:28.489
<v Speaker 1>you learn

1:02:28.500 --> 1:02:29.500
<v Speaker 2>something from every novel,

1:02:29.510 --> 1:02:32.129
<v Speaker 1>don't you? Oh, God. One thing. And I often think

1:02:32.139 --> 1:02:34.500
<v Speaker 1>like what you said earlier. Am I just a slow learner?

1:02:34.510 --> 1:02:36.469
<v Speaker 1>How am I still learning this crap? He set up

1:02:36.479 --> 1:02:37.489
<v Speaker 1>to 20 years

1:02:37.500 --> 1:02:38.530
<v Speaker 2>in bubbles.

1:02:39.030 --> 1:02:41.149
<v Speaker 2>Each time I do it, it feels like I'm doing

1:02:41.159 --> 1:02:43.419
<v Speaker 2>it for the first time. And until I get to

1:02:43.429 --> 1:02:44.889
<v Speaker 2>a point and I think I yeah, I do know

1:02:44.899 --> 1:02:47.080
<v Speaker 2>what I'm doing. Yeah, sorry, but when is this book

1:02:47.090 --> 1:02:48.050
<v Speaker 2>actually out

1:02:48.060 --> 1:02:49.969
<v Speaker 1>on the 30th of April

1:02:49.979 --> 1:02:52.889
<v Speaker 2>30th of April. Ok, yeah. This will be out probably

1:02:52.899 --> 1:02:54.979
<v Speaker 2>the week that week or the week after. Now, I

1:02:54.989 --> 1:02:57.419
<v Speaker 2>do believe you are going to a Coldplay concert later

1:02:57.429 --> 1:02:57.830
<v Speaker 2>in the year.

1:02:59.159 --> 1:03:00.120
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I am going

1:03:00.129 --> 1:03:02.560
<v Speaker 1>to a CO. So this is the funny thing about

1:03:02.570 --> 1:03:05.520
<v Speaker 1>this book, right? It was written during Yeah, a lot

1:03:05.530 --> 1:03:07.860
<v Speaker 1>of it was written during Covid. And we didn't even

1:03:07.870 --> 1:03:10.889
<v Speaker 1>know if there was ever going to be musicals ever again, right?

1:03:11.129 --> 1:03:12.139
<v Speaker 1>It looked pretty bleak

1:03:13.739 --> 1:03:16.489
<v Speaker 1>there for a while. It really didn't. I think this

1:03:16.500 --> 1:03:18.719
<v Speaker 1>is the first year they really come back and forth.

1:03:18.879 --> 1:03:22.820
<v Speaker 1>And some Coldplay have been in Sydney for a number

1:03:22.830 --> 1:03:26.500
<v Speaker 1>of years. And now suddenly they're coming in the same

1:03:26.510 --> 1:03:28.350
<v Speaker 1>year that the book is coming out, which is quite ironic.

1:03:28.709 --> 1:03:32.010
<v Speaker 1>And so when they announced the concert, I was like, Oh,

1:03:32.020 --> 1:03:34.040
<v Speaker 1>my God, I've got to get tickets. But oh, my God.

1:03:34.060 --> 1:03:36.120
<v Speaker 1>And of course, the whole family wants to go. The

1:03:36.129 --> 1:03:38.639
<v Speaker 1>whole family wants to go. But this time I'm going

1:03:38.649 --> 1:03:40.659
<v Speaker 1>down on the field. You get a

1:03:41.389 --> 1:03:42.429
<v Speaker 2>hand on each hand.

1:03:42.979 --> 1:03:45.439
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I was saying, but everyone's laughing because I been

1:03:45.449 --> 1:03:48.739
<v Speaker 1>rubbish jinxed us. You totally jinxed us. In fact, I

1:03:48.750 --> 1:03:50.479
<v Speaker 1>know lots of people are going to that concert because

1:03:50.489 --> 1:03:53.860
<v Speaker 1>I think they're doing or because they are you going, pa? No,

1:03:53.870 --> 1:03:55.689
<v Speaker 2>I missed out on tickets. I can't believe

1:03:55.699 --> 1:03:55.879
<v Speaker 1>that.

1:03:56.689 --> 1:03:58.879
<v Speaker 1>I think they're doing four consecutive nights. I know lots

1:03:58.889 --> 1:04:01.489
<v Speaker 1>of people going to that cool pay concert, and hopefully

1:04:01.500 --> 1:04:03.389
<v Speaker 1>they won't be thinking about my book and they'll be

1:04:03.399 --> 1:04:04.489
<v Speaker 1>enjoying the concert.

1:04:04.860 --> 1:04:07.739
<v Speaker 2>There'll be some great promotional opportunities there. Be so make

1:04:07.750 --> 1:04:09.600
<v Speaker 2>sure you take lots of photos. And I'm just seeing

1:04:09.610 --> 1:04:12.120
<v Speaker 2>Chris Martin in the background and the yellow balls and

1:04:12.129 --> 1:04:13.689
<v Speaker 2>your book in the world.

1:04:15.330 --> 1:04:18.030
<v Speaker 2>Now bet this has been such a great chat and

1:04:18.040 --> 1:04:20.229
<v Speaker 2>thank you for staying on so long. We've covered so

1:04:20.239 --> 1:04:23.040
<v Speaker 2>much territory, but I'd like to finish up with a

1:04:23.050 --> 1:04:26.179
<v Speaker 2>question which sometimes we've touched on. But what would you

1:04:26.189 --> 1:04:28.189
<v Speaker 2>say is at the heart of your writing

1:04:28.879 --> 1:04:31.340
<v Speaker 1>Everyday people is at the heart of my rising.

1:04:32.080 --> 1:04:33.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm not interested if

1:04:34.699 --> 1:04:38.100
<v Speaker 1>they're super rich or super successful, or

1:04:38.780 --> 1:04:43.040
<v Speaker 1>I'm interested in everyday people finding themselves in really hard

1:04:43.050 --> 1:04:46.120
<v Speaker 1>situations and what they'll do in those situations. And I

1:04:46.129 --> 1:04:51.120
<v Speaker 1>think I want you to essentially like my characters and

1:04:51.129 --> 1:04:52.439
<v Speaker 1>believe in my characters.

1:04:53.719 --> 1:04:57.139
<v Speaker 2>You've definitely nailed that with this book and because we've

1:04:57.149 --> 1:05:01.239
<v Speaker 2>been talking so much about the publishing industry and something

1:05:01.250 --> 1:05:03.310
<v Speaker 2>that I did mean to say earlier, which I think

1:05:03.320 --> 1:05:05.399
<v Speaker 2>might be a great kind of thing to finish on,

1:05:05.409 --> 1:05:08.629
<v Speaker 2>is the thing that you have continued to do be

1:05:08.760 --> 1:05:13.179
<v Speaker 2>all through all those 20 years and lots of disappointments

1:05:13.189 --> 1:05:16.149
<v Speaker 2>and not really knowing who was gonna publish your next

1:05:16.159 --> 1:05:17.830
<v Speaker 2>book or how it was gonna be published is you've

1:05:17.840 --> 1:05:18.580
<v Speaker 2>kept writing

1:05:19.399 --> 1:05:20.939
<v Speaker 2>and I think that's the key, isn't it?

1:05:21.590 --> 1:05:23.770
<v Speaker 1>It is the key, and it in many ways it's

1:05:23.780 --> 1:05:27.570
<v Speaker 1>very liberating because once you've figured that out, you'll be happy.

1:05:27.580 --> 1:05:30.699
<v Speaker 1>You'll be happy. And you know, this is really hard

1:05:30.709 --> 1:05:33.620
<v Speaker 1>to stop writing, isn't it? In some way, it's really

1:05:33.629 --> 1:05:35.659
<v Speaker 1>hard to stop. It can be hard to do it

1:05:35.669 --> 1:05:36.550
<v Speaker 1>when you need to do it as well,

1:05:37.054 --> 1:05:39.064
<v Speaker 1>but it's hard to stop doing it when you love it.

1:05:39.074 --> 1:05:42.014
<v Speaker 1>So I think once you hold on to that, you

1:05:42.024 --> 1:05:44.385
<v Speaker 1>never really know what's going to happen. And once you

1:05:44.395 --> 1:05:48.074
<v Speaker 1>don't expect a smooth ride, I think if you are

1:05:48.084 --> 1:05:52.195
<v Speaker 1>prepared for a few bumps along the road, then you'd

1:05:52.205 --> 1:05:53.645
<v Speaker 1>be well equipped for what's ahead.

1:05:54.370 --> 1:05:56.389
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think that's a perfect note to finish on.

1:05:56.399 --> 1:05:58.860
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for all the best with one

1:05:58.870 --> 1:06:02.169
<v Speaker 2>of us is missing. Great book, please everybody out there

1:06:02.389 --> 1:06:05.949
<v Speaker 2>just as a great reading experience. But particularly also if

1:06:05.959 --> 1:06:08.729
<v Speaker 2>you're a writer and wondering how to get tension into

1:06:08.739 --> 1:06:11.020
<v Speaker 2>your writing through all those things we talked about on

1:06:11.030 --> 1:06:15.229
<v Speaker 2>the page through the lines structure, the plot, everything fantastic

1:06:15.239 --> 1:06:17.250
<v Speaker 2>read and I will see you be at war. A

1:06:17.459 --> 1:06:20.320
<v Speaker 2>mole on the third of May I see you,

1:06:21.709 --> 1:06:23.530
<v Speaker 2>Bye bye.

1:06:30.580 --> 1:06:33.169
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for listening to rights for women. I hope you've

1:06:33.179 --> 1:06:35.040
<v Speaker 2>enjoyed my chat with this week's guest.

1:06:35.840 --> 1:06:37.649
<v Speaker 2>If you did, I'd love it if you could add

1:06:37.659 --> 1:06:40.469
<v Speaker 2>a quick rating or review wherever you get your podcasts

1:06:40.570 --> 1:06:44.260
<v Speaker 2>so others can more easily find the episodes. Don't forget

1:06:44.270 --> 1:06:46.979
<v Speaker 2>to check out the backlist on the rights for women website.

1:06:47.290 --> 1:06:50.419
<v Speaker 2>So much great writing advice in the library there, and

1:06:50.429 --> 1:06:52.959
<v Speaker 2>you can also find the transcript of today's chat on

1:06:52.969 --> 1:06:53.860
<v Speaker 2>the website, too.

1:06:55.179 --> 1:06:57.199
<v Speaker 2>You can find details on the website on how to

1:06:57.209 --> 1:07:00.120
<v Speaker 2>support the podcast through Patreon and you can connect with

1:07:00.129 --> 1:07:03.879
<v Speaker 2>me through the website at Rights for Women.com on Instagram

1:07:03.889 --> 1:07:07.860
<v Speaker 2>and Twitter at W for W podcast. The Facebook page

1:07:07.870 --> 1:07:10.770
<v Speaker 2>writes for women or find me and my writing at

1:07:10.780 --> 1:07:12.800
<v Speaker 2>Pamela cook.com dot a U.

1:07:14.060 --> 1:07:17.360
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for listening. Have a great week. And remember every

1:07:17.370 --> 1:07:20.080
<v Speaker 2>word you write you're one word closer to typing the end.