WEBVTT - Murder, Mayhem, and Manuscripts: A Deep Dive with Crime Writer Sara Bailey 0:00:04.579 --> 0:00:07.760 Welcome to Rights for Women, a podcast all about celebrating 0:00:07.769 --> 0:00:10.430 women's voices and supporting women writers. 0:00:11.199 --> 0:00:16.440 I'm Pamela Cook, women's fiction author, writing teacher, mentor and podcaster. 0:00:17.209 --> 0:00:20.129 Before beginning today's chat, I would like to acknowledge and 0:00:20.139 --> 0:00:23.510 pay my respects to the DRA Wal People, the traditional 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.989 custodians of the land on which this podcast is being recorded, 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:30.659 along with the traditional owners of the land throughout Australia 0:00:30.969 --> 0:00:33.269 and a quick reminder that there could be strong language 0:00:33.279 --> 0:00:36.580 and adult concepts discussed in this podcast. So please be 0:00:36.590 --> 0:00:38.459 aware of this. If you have Children around, 0:00:39.598 --> 0:00:42.360 let's relax on the convo couch and chat to this 0:00:42.369 --> 0:00:43.129 week's guest. 0:00:45.090 --> 0:00:48.259 Hello and welcome to another episode of Rights for Women. 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:52.200 This week we have something very special. A guest host 0:00:52.209 --> 0:00:57.490 Ray Cairns, talking to a fantastically loved crime author. Sarah 0:00:57.500 --> 0:01:01.240 Bailey Sarah is the author of six. I Think It 0:01:01.250 --> 0:01:04.660 is Crime novels, and this is a fantastic chat between 0:01:04.669 --> 0:01:05.989 Ray and Sarah, 0:01:06.529 --> 0:01:10.750 two wonderful crime authors chatting about Sarah's books, of course, 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:14.529 particularly her latest release, Body of Lies, but also really 0:01:14.540 --> 0:01:17.040 getting into the writing process. And there's some great stuff 0:01:17.050 --> 0:01:20.760 here on how Sarah goes about research, how she fits 0:01:20.769 --> 0:01:23.699 writing into a very busy life with three Children and 0:01:23.709 --> 0:01:25.110 a full time job. All 0:01:25.220 --> 0:01:28.199 so a whole lot of other things about the writing process. 0:01:28.209 --> 0:01:30.819 So I think you're going to really love this interview 0:01:30.830 --> 0:01:33.519 regardless of whether you are a crime author or not, 0:01:33.790 --> 0:01:36.199 or whether you're a crime reader or not. This is 0:01:36.209 --> 0:01:38.339 one for all readers and writers, I think, and it's 0:01:38.349 --> 0:01:41.239 a really interesting conversation. Hope you enjoy it as much 0:01:41.250 --> 0:01:43.879 as I enjoyed listening to it as I was editing it. 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:46.680 Ray Cairns is the author of The Good Mother 0:01:47.129 --> 0:01:51.819 and Dying to Know two brilliant crime slash thriller novels 0:01:51.830 --> 0:01:56.129 about ordinary women caught in very extraordinary situations. If you 0:01:56.139 --> 0:01:59.400 haven't read Ray Ray's books yet, I highly recommend them. 0:01:59.410 --> 0:02:02.260 They're absolutely gripping and page turning, and you can find 0:02:02.269 --> 0:02:04.080 the links to buy them in the show Notes for 0:02:04.089 --> 0:02:06.889 this episode. Not a whole lot for me to report 0:02:06.900 --> 0:02:09.710 this week in terms of my own writing. I've finally 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:15.070 finished the editing slash proofread on both Blackwater Lake and 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:16.190 out of the Ashes 0:02:16.779 --> 0:02:19.330 to get them ready for print and E book release 0:02:19.339 --> 0:02:20.149 later in the year, 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:23.758 and I've also done my novella proofread that's gone off 0:02:23.770 --> 0:02:26.639 to the publisher at HQ. Harp Collins for this year's 0:02:26.649 --> 0:02:30.669 Christmas Anthology. Just today. Actually, the novella that I wrote 0:02:30.679 --> 0:02:33.619 for last year's anthology A Christmas to Remember has been 0:02:33.630 --> 0:02:36.460 released into the wild on its own, so you can 0:02:36.470 --> 0:02:40.139 grab that for just 299 as an eBook, along with 0:02:40.149 --> 0:02:43.660 any of the individual novellas from that anthology. So if 0:02:43.669 --> 0:02:45.740 you feel like just dipping into one or two of them, 0:02:46.100 --> 0:02:49.720 highly recommend you grab those at your favourite eBook retailer. 0:02:50.830 --> 0:02:52.380 Also, I wanted to give a shout out to all 0:02:52.389 --> 0:02:55.619 the people following along on my diary of a Procrastinator 0:02:56.050 --> 0:02:59.539 patreon series. This is for the family level supporters who 0:02:59.550 --> 0:03:01.049 pay $5 a month. 0:03:01.449 --> 0:03:03.520 And what I've been doing the last couple of weeks 0:03:03.529 --> 0:03:06.990 is doing an analysis of Donna Cameron's opening chapter for 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:10.350 the Rewilding. Because I think it's just a really great 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:13.610 gripping opening chapter, and it's a masterclass on how to 0:03:13.619 --> 0:03:16.589 write an opening chapter. So I've been reading that along 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:20.330 with the patreon peeps and digging into what makes that 0:03:20.339 --> 0:03:23.449 such a great opening. Now that I've finished doing all 0:03:23.460 --> 0:03:25.490 my edits, I'm going to be get getting back to 0:03:25.500 --> 0:03:26.369 my own writing, 0:03:27.149 --> 0:03:30.610 and I will be sharing, uh, my process as I 0:03:30.619 --> 0:03:33.049 write the third in the Black Water Lake series, a 0:03:33.059 --> 0:03:36.250 place of her own. I'm already 25,000 words into that, 0:03:36.259 --> 0:03:38.270 and I had talked about that at the beginning of 0:03:38.279 --> 0:03:41.720 the Diary of a Procrastinator series. But I am going 0:03:41.729 --> 0:03:45.009 back to that tomorrow and will be doing a few 0:03:45.020 --> 0:03:48.009 updates each week for the patreon people just talking about 0:03:48.020 --> 0:03:51.880 my writing process, talking about any difficulties that I'm coming across, 0:03:51.889 --> 0:03:55.649 what I'm doing to get over them, talking about characterization, 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:58.580 getting words on the page, anything at all to do 0:03:58.589 --> 0:04:00.899 with the process of getting that first draught down. 0:04:01.690 --> 0:04:03.589 And I'll be doing that in a fairly short period 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:05.139 of time because it does need to get to the 0:04:05.149 --> 0:04:08.470 publisher in a few months. So follow along, aiming to 0:04:08.479 --> 0:04:10.970 do a nano this month and make a 50,000 words 0:04:10.979 --> 0:04:13.490 in a month. I'm also planning on doing a kind 0:04:13.500 --> 0:04:16.399 of write along sessions with the patreon people, where I'll 0:04:16.410 --> 0:04:19.040 just send a zoom link through, and anybody that wants 0:04:19.049 --> 0:04:20.789 to join me for a you know, half hour or 0:04:20.799 --> 0:04:23.799 one hour writing session as we motivate each other, that 0:04:23.809 --> 0:04:25.850 will be happening and so you can find out all 0:04:25.859 --> 0:04:31.010 about the Patreon programme on writes for Women.com/patreon. 0:04:32.359 --> 0:04:35.690 So let's get on with this week's chat. Ray Cairn's 0:04:35.700 --> 0:04:39.190 Chatting to Crime author Sarah Bailey, and it's a really 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:40.820 great one. Hope you enjoy. 0:04:41.850 --> 0:04:42.869 Hi and welcome 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:45.980 to this episode Rights for Women. My name is Rae Cairns. 0:04:45.988 --> 0:04:48.279 I write crime fiction, and I'm one of Pam's guest 0:04:48.290 --> 0:04:52.119 hosts for 2024. It's my absolute pleasure to be speaking 0:04:52.130 --> 0:04:55.390 with Sarah Bailey today about her fifth full length novel 0:04:55.399 --> 0:04:59.380 but sixth publication, Body of Lies. We'll also chat about 0:04:59.390 --> 0:05:02.320 her writing process and how that may have changed since 0:05:02.329 --> 0:05:02.988 Book one. 0:05:03.488 --> 0:05:06.809 Sarah Bailey is the author of the internationally award winning 0:05:06.820 --> 0:05:10.789 Gemma Woodstock series, as well as the best selling Stand-alone novel, 0:05:10.799 --> 0:05:14.899 The Housemate and an audible Original Final Act. The debut 0:05:14.910 --> 0:05:17.880 and first of four Gemma novels, The Dark Lake won 0:05:17.890 --> 0:05:20.850 the Ned Kelly Award for Best First Crime Fiction and 0:05:20.859 --> 0:05:24.170 the David Award for best debut Body of Lies, the 0:05:24.178 --> 0:05:26.849 fourth book in the Gemma series, was released in March 0:05:26.859 --> 0:05:29.609 this year. Sarah, Welcome to the Convoke Co. 0:05:30.519 --> 0:05:33.640 Thank you so much, Rae for having me so as 0:05:33.649 --> 0:05:37.140 well as being an internationally bestselling crime author. 0:05:37.390 --> 0:05:41.309 You have three sons, one of whom is moving into toddlers. 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:44.269 You're also the managing director of the Melbourne and Sydney 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:48.929 offices of an advertising agency. So my first question has 0:05:48.940 --> 0:05:51.220 to be, Do you have any tips on how to 0:05:51.230 --> 0:05:54.880 keep writing when time is scarce? It's a really good 0:05:54.890 --> 0:05:58.929 question that I'm currently asking myself if I do have 0:05:58.940 --> 0:06:01.329 a I do have a book deadline that was on 0:06:01.339 --> 0:06:03.320 the horizon, and now it feels like it's getting closer 0:06:03.329 --> 0:06:05.130 and I really need to do something about it. 0:06:05.459 --> 0:06:07.660 Look, I think with writing, and I'm sure that this 0:06:07.670 --> 0:06:10.200 is something that you would agree with. You do have 0:06:10.209 --> 0:06:13.558 to really want to do it because it's hard to 0:06:13.570 --> 0:06:16.320 find time, and it is deep work like it's that 0:06:16.329 --> 0:06:18.630 kind of work that you can't dip in and out 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:21.079 of at certain phases of the writing process. I used 0:06:21.089 --> 0:06:22.880 to be a little bit better at doing that, maybe 0:06:22.890 --> 0:06:26.239 as well, but now I'm finding that I really need 0:06:26.250 --> 0:06:28.589 enough time to be able to get back into my 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:31.519 story and read what's already written and then really think 0:06:31.529 --> 0:06:32.238 about the next 0:06:32.970 --> 0:06:35.130 steps and the next themes and what, what not. So 0:06:35.140 --> 0:06:36.950 I find that if I have half an hour, 0:06:37.630 --> 0:06:39.850 I can't do much with that. Like I can potentially 0:06:39.859 --> 0:06:42.209 do a tiny bit of editing. But to really make 0:06:42.220 --> 0:06:45.000 progress on a manuscript, I do need a couple of hours, 0:06:45.010 --> 0:06:48.440 at least set aside better than if a day, if possible. 0:06:48.450 --> 0:06:48.769 So 0:06:49.500 --> 0:06:53.479 time is the real challenge. When it comes to writing 0:06:53.488 --> 0:06:56.549 for me, I try to find blocks of time where 0:06:56.559 --> 0:06:59.679 I can just cordon myself off. And I do work 0:06:59.690 --> 0:07:03.829 quite quickly, which I think is lucky. I'm quite a far, uh, 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:07.719 thinker and a fast writer that both in your first 0:07:07.730 --> 0:07:10.329 draught and in your editing you find you quite quick. 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:13.779 Yeah, I think so. Just talking to other writers, and 0:07:13.790 --> 0:07:16.130 it's obviously really hard to compare and tell because you 0:07:16.140 --> 0:07:19.980 don't actually sit with someone else while they're writing. But 0:07:19.989 --> 0:07:23.480 from what they tell me, I feel like I am. 0:07:23.799 --> 0:07:26.429 I don't really second guess my decision. I'm not someone 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:30.320 that agonises over every word. I'm fairly pragmatic, I think 0:07:30.329 --> 0:07:33.820 when it comes to writing so particularly in that first draught. 0:07:33.829 --> 0:07:35.480 I'm all about just getting the story out, 0:07:36.059 --> 0:07:38.720 getting it down, making sure it's making sense to me, 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:41.440 having the loose beats of the story as clear as 0:07:41.450 --> 0:07:45.000 I can. The editing process is a bit different because 0:07:45.010 --> 0:07:48.350 you do have to be a little bit more thoughtful, 0:07:48.359 --> 0:07:51.040 and there is more of a kind of agonising over 0:07:51.339 --> 0:07:54.720 removing a scene or changing a character or big decisions. 0:07:54.730 --> 0:07:57.029 So that is a bit lower by nature. 0:07:57.779 --> 0:07:59.570 Um, and I go into, I think, quite a different 0:07:59.579 --> 0:08:01.730 pace from an editing point of view than I do 0:08:01.739 --> 0:08:04.660 with a like draught point of view. So do you 0:08:04.670 --> 0:08:06.369 tend to try and put aside a day on the 0:08:06.380 --> 0:08:10.850 weekend or Yeah, is that true? I do back working 0:08:10.859 --> 0:08:14.209 full time. Now I am back working full time, and 0:08:14.220 --> 0:08:16.279 the honest answer to your question is I actually don't 0:08:16.290 --> 0:08:18.299 know exactly how it's going to work now because I've 0:08:18.309 --> 0:08:22.130 never written with a baby before. My other Children were, 0:08:22.140 --> 0:08:24.799 I think, about four and seven or so when I 0:08:24.809 --> 0:08:26.130 first started writing, 0:08:26.529 --> 0:08:29.070 which is obviously quite a different ball game, because they 0:08:29.079 --> 0:08:32.669 were able to be entertaining themselves or di, different kind 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:34.950 of patent, of sleeping and things like that. You know 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:37.169 how it's gonna go. It'll be a bit of an experiment, 0:08:37.179 --> 0:08:39.530 and we'll find out. But I'm lucky. I've obviously got 0:08:39.539 --> 0:08:44.309 a supportive partner so I can negotiate specific blocks of time. 0:08:44.510 --> 0:08:48.049 But there is limited time to negotiate because work's already 0:08:48.059 --> 0:08:50.829 taken up a very big chunk of it, and my 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:53.829 work's quite unpredictable, too. So even though it's full time 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:55.349 and it's full time hours, we 0:08:55.869 --> 0:08:59.718 work in an industry where pitches come in or things change. 0:08:59.729 --> 0:09:03.250 And so even planning out weeknight to get two or 0:09:03.260 --> 0:09:06.199 three hours done can be a bit of a challenge, 0:09:06.210 --> 0:09:09.650 because it just doesn't always work out that way. But 0:09:09.659 --> 0:09:10.729 I'm just someone that 0:09:11.739 --> 0:09:13.760 I guess I don't stress about it. I feel like 0:09:13.770 --> 0:09:17.239 it's always worked out in the past, one way or another. 0:09:17.599 --> 0:09:20.880 I feel optimistic that it will continue to work out 0:09:20.890 --> 0:09:23.890 one way or another, and it's like Mike said here 0:09:23.900 --> 0:09:26.200 before that, that you've got to want to write. 0:09:27.099 --> 0:09:28.989 That's right. I was saying to someone the other day, 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:31.609 I when I'm not writing, I miss it. And so 0:09:31.619 --> 0:09:34.030 I guess thats good to know. It's a sort of 0:09:34.039 --> 0:09:36.218 It's actually quite a nice thing to miss something, because 0:09:36.229 --> 0:09:38.500 I feel like that means that it is something that 0:09:38.510 --> 0:09:41.319 you wanna do. But that doesn't mean obviously that when 0:09:41.330 --> 0:09:44.479 you sit down, it's easy. I wish that it was 0:09:44.489 --> 0:09:47.690 getting easier and easier, but I actually don't feel that 0:09:47.700 --> 0:09:50.439 it's gotten any easier for me to do that over 0:09:50.450 --> 0:09:52.280 the six books. It hasn't got easier. 0:09:53.090 --> 0:09:56.210 No, not really. I think it's just because each book 0:09:56.219 --> 0:09:59.909 is its own unique puzzle and has its own sort 0:09:59.919 --> 0:10:03.190 of unique challenges. And I think that the main thing 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:05.640 I've learned is to have that optimism, that it will 0:10:05.650 --> 0:10:08.789 get done because it has gotten done before, so I 0:10:08.799 --> 0:10:12.030 don't tend to stress about it. But it certainly 0:10:12.849 --> 0:10:15.789 I don't really necessarily feel like I've got all these 0:10:15.799 --> 0:10:18.750 skills that I've accumulated that have that make it easier. 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:21.598 It's like a confidence in there somewhere that I'll figure 0:10:21.609 --> 0:10:25.489 it out. But each book is yeah, its own unique beast. 0:10:25.500 --> 0:10:28.909 So it's a strange craft. I think in that sense, 0:10:28.919 --> 0:10:31.750 because I guess you learn skills, but I don't know 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:35.140 there's something about it that makes every book feel like 0:10:35.150 --> 0:10:36.270 a special challenge. 0:10:37.299 --> 0:10:39.039 But isn't that The other thing is that you're learning 0:10:39.049 --> 0:10:42.439 from each book, so as a craft, you keep learning. 0:10:42.489 --> 0:10:46.880 It's not like you go, Oh, I've done that. So yeah, 0:10:46.890 --> 0:10:51.239 and obviously that's part of why it's so rewarding because 0:10:51.250 --> 0:10:53.098 there is the struggle. Like, I think that if it 0:10:53.109 --> 0:10:56.559 was easy, it would just not be nearly as attractive 0:10:56.570 --> 0:10:59.619 to just be a writer, because I think that even 0:10:59.630 --> 0:11:01.590 though we all find it, I think most people find 0:11:01.599 --> 0:11:04.400 it quite challenging and certainly a big project to take on. 0:11:04.929 --> 0:11:07.099 If it was easy, I just don't think you'd have 0:11:07.109 --> 0:11:11.250 that satisfaction at the end that that is so special 0:11:11.260 --> 0:11:14.820 for me, that achievement of standing back and looking at 0:11:14.830 --> 0:11:17.840 a book and thinking about all the hours and decisions 0:11:17.849 --> 0:11:19.979 that went into it and the changes and the way 0:11:19.989 --> 0:11:22.460 that I had to navigate it. That's so much a 0:11:22.469 --> 0:11:26.169 part of the satisfaction that comes from writing. And I 0:11:26.179 --> 0:11:29.390 think it's also because in our world there's so few 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.830 opportunities to complete a project in a way that feels 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:33.989 like a full circle, 0:11:34.539 --> 0:11:36.890 something that you can tick off most of the things 0:11:36.900 --> 0:11:38.760 I work on in my other job, I sort of 0:11:39.229 --> 0:11:41.859 there's projects that get completed, but they just roll on 0:11:41.869 --> 0:11:44.330 to some extent as well. Whereas I think with a 0:11:44.340 --> 0:11:45.630 book it's done 0:11:46.330 --> 0:11:48.159 and you get to hold it and look at it 0:11:48.169 --> 0:11:51.369 and reflect on it. And maybe it's perfect, but it's 0:11:51.380 --> 0:11:54.929 a completed piece. It's really it is really special. And II. 0:11:54.940 --> 0:11:58.949 I think that it is a huge driving motivation during 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:01.679 the process, like all of those times where you be 0:12:01.700 --> 0:12:04.729 bothered writing today or gosh, this is hard or I 0:12:04.739 --> 0:12:08.989 don't know how to fix this editorial feedback that that 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:13.840 feeling that you're chasing to complete it is certainly the 0:12:13.849 --> 0:12:15.390 thing that keeps me going, I think, 0:12:15.789 --> 0:12:20.520 Yeah, absolutely. On that huge congratulations on Body of Lies 0:12:20.530 --> 0:12:24.520 I absolutely loved. It was the the twists and the 0:12:24.530 --> 0:12:29.000 red herrings and the way you wrangle numerous plot lines 0:12:29.010 --> 0:12:33.640 and still keep the build of tension going. And it's also, 0:12:33.650 --> 0:12:35.780 I think, a lesson in how to make a book 0:12:35.789 --> 0:12:38.218 in a series work as a stand alone novel like 0:12:38.229 --> 0:12:40.679 it really sits as a stand alone novel as well, 0:12:40.690 --> 0:12:44.500 which I I learned from that. So can you tell 0:12:44.510 --> 0:12:45.478 us a bit about the story? 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:48.900 Yes, I can. And thank you, Rae. So much for 0:12:48.909 --> 0:12:51.739 those kind words. It's really nice to hear all of 0:12:51.750 --> 0:12:54.859 that feedback. Yeah. So the book is the fourth book 0:12:54.869 --> 0:12:59.030 in the Detective Gemma Woodstock series. And I have to 0:12:59.039 --> 0:13:02.979 say at the start, the idea came the premise. The 0:13:02.989 --> 0:13:05.590 idea of this book came before it was part of 0:13:05.599 --> 0:13:07.909 the series. Like I was considering it as a stand 0:13:07.919 --> 0:13:10.900 alone idea. This was just in my mind. I never 0:13:10.909 --> 0:13:12.140 put pen to paper, but 0:13:12.419 --> 0:13:15.559 I was thinking about this premise of a body being 0:13:15.570 --> 0:13:18.400 stolen from a hospital morgue. And I was loosely in 0:13:18.409 --> 0:13:21.770 my mind, had another detective character tied to it completely 0:13:21.780 --> 0:13:25.270 new character. And I was just thinking how that might 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:27.729 all come together. And then there was a few things 0:13:27.739 --> 0:13:29.569 that sort of fell into place. So I decided it 0:13:29.580 --> 0:13:31.400 needed to be in a regional country 0:13:31.500 --> 0:13:35.799 town just to make the premise more believable. So the 0:13:35.809 --> 0:13:39.609 idea that a body could get stolen from a hospital 0:13:39.619 --> 0:13:41.939 felt like something that would be more likely to happen 0:13:41.950 --> 0:13:44.478 in these regional sort of towns. Just based on the 0:13:44.489 --> 0:13:47.750 way the hospital and the morgue relationship works. And so 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:50.478 once I started framing it into that setting, 0:13:51.190 --> 0:13:55.270 Gemma popped up. And I'd already had this idea a 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:57.090 long time ago of her being at a at the 0:13:57.099 --> 0:14:00.969 hospital with an unwell family member. And so I thought, Oh, 0:14:00.979 --> 0:14:05.700 she's already there. And so, yeah, it was a funny 0:14:05.820 --> 0:14:09.770 kind of process because I hadn't necessarily planned 0:14:10.469 --> 0:14:14.169 to write another Gemma book. I hadn't definitively written it off, 0:14:14.179 --> 0:14:18.460 but I certainly hadn't planned to write a four. The third. 0:14:18.469 --> 0:14:20.130 The third one, sort of ends in a way that 0:14:20.140 --> 0:14:22.580 I would have been happy with, I think. But once 0:14:22.590 --> 0:14:25.789 she started to mule her way into the story, it 0:14:25.799 --> 0:14:27.919 was so clear to me that there needed to be 0:14:27.929 --> 0:14:30.750 this fourth book and her story needed to continue. Yeah, 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:32.830 it was really nice, actually, because then I had the 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:35.210 character to put into the premise of the story. 0:14:35.710 --> 0:14:38.000 But I, I really started writing this book quite a 0:14:38.010 --> 0:14:40.900 long time ago. Like I started the sort of few 0:14:40.909 --> 0:14:43.650 first few chapters of this book when we were in 0:14:43.659 --> 0:14:48.210 lockdown in Melbourne in 2020 then parked it for a 0:14:48.219 --> 0:14:51.729 few months and was finishing the housemaid and got really 0:14:51.739 --> 0:14:54.250 busy doing that, and then ended up back in the 0:14:54.260 --> 0:14:57.609 opposite work and back being busy again. So I had 0:14:57.619 --> 0:15:01.809 about 25,000 words that sat on this manuscript for, I think, 0:15:01.900 --> 0:15:02.969 over 18 months, 0:15:03.330 --> 0:15:05.750 and I really didn't touch it for that whole time 0:15:06.659 --> 0:15:09.719 and then went back and did really like the premise 0:15:09.729 --> 0:15:14.750 really felt like it was worthy of pursuing. So worked 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:17.440 through how it was all going to play out. But 0:15:17.450 --> 0:15:20.450 it changed quite a bit. And the subplot that you 0:15:20.460 --> 0:15:23.969 mentioned really didn't come into play until I went back 0:15:23.979 --> 0:15:27.320 and revisited it. Like that 1st, 25,000 words was quite 0:15:28.090 --> 0:15:31.940 straightforward. Initially, it was very much just around the key premise, 0:15:31.950 --> 0:15:33.590 and that was the focus, and that was it. 0:15:34.239 --> 0:15:36.659 And then it wasn't until later that I laid it 0:15:36.669 --> 0:15:40.520 in with some of these other characters and subplot situations, 0:15:40.530 --> 0:15:40.900 which 0:15:41.719 --> 0:15:44.309 Gemma was really helpful because I know so much about 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.020 her and her world. I was then able to create 0:15:47.030 --> 0:15:51.099 the other kind of tensions and stories beyond that kind 0:15:51.109 --> 0:15:53.750 of core proposition of the book, so it was a 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:56.229 Really Yeah, it's been a It was a really fun 0:15:56.239 --> 0:15:58.969 one to write. I'm gonna say that now, but we'll 0:15:58.979 --> 0:16:02.820 stick to that. I do remember at the time there 0:16:02.830 --> 0:16:05.229 were quite a few challenges, and I did edit this 0:16:05.239 --> 0:16:08.059 book with a very young baby. So I got the 0:16:08.070 --> 0:16:11.090 I did the first past the draught 0:16:11.489 --> 0:16:14.799 when he was about a month old, which was interesting. 0:16:15.099 --> 0:16:17.380 But as you would have known from reading the book, 0:16:17.650 --> 0:16:21.390 Gemma's also has a newborn in the book. And so 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.900 it wasn't ever intended to be life imitating art because 0:16:24.909 --> 0:16:26.940 I started this book quite a long time ago. 0:16:27.239 --> 0:16:29.659 Before there was any idea in my mind that I 0:16:29.669 --> 0:16:32.239 would have another child. But it did end up that 0:16:32.250 --> 0:16:35.150 she's navigating crimes then with a baby strapped to her front, 0:16:35.159 --> 0:16:37.210 and I was kind of like typing around a baby 0:16:37.219 --> 0:16:40.080 strapped to my front, so it was quite funny. You know, 0:16:40.190 --> 0:16:44.750 those those bits the little snippets about work beautifully about. 0:16:45.114 --> 0:16:50.174 So yeah, it's like method writing. You should go a 0:16:50.184 --> 0:16:54.135 long way, don't you to get I Really? Yeah. For 0:16:54.145 --> 0:16:56.815 my art. I'll do anything better. Yeah. So it was 0:16:57.054 --> 0:17:00.205 a sort of an interesting process overall, and certainly the 0:17:00.215 --> 0:17:03.835 longest I've ever taken to to work on a book. 0:17:03.844 --> 0:17:06.063 Not that I think it actually, if you added up 0:17:06.074 --> 0:17:08.204 all the time, it took me overall, it probably didn't 0:17:08.214 --> 0:17:10.294 end up being any longer than the others. But it 0:17:10.305 --> 0:17:12.594 was just spread over quite a few years. 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:16.478 Yeah, which I think probably ended up helping with the 0:17:16.489 --> 0:17:19.129 book because it's I think did need quite a lot 0:17:19.140 --> 0:17:21.030 of colour and that 0:17:21.660 --> 0:17:24.869 because it's the last book in the series, I really 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:27.729 wanted to make sure it came full circle and so 0:17:27.739 --> 0:17:30.270 setting it back in Gemma's hometown, she's back to where 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:32.199 it all started. And I think the growth 0:17:32.969 --> 0:17:36.390 that she has in this book is really important and 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:39.879 makes me feel good about ending the series. I think 0:17:39.890 --> 0:17:42.599 like it does feel like it has got the right ending. 0:17:42.609 --> 0:17:45.030 So was it a hard decision to decide to end 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:47.770 the series? I don't know, like I do get asked 0:17:47.780 --> 0:17:50.589 quite a bit if I miss her or was I 0:17:50.599 --> 0:17:55.109 sad and I like not really. It didn't feel particularly emotional. 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:57.579 I think like she's been such that I feel lucky 0:17:57.589 --> 0:17:59.949 that I thought of her. I, I suppose, is more 0:17:59.959 --> 0:18:02.099 where I get to no idea where she came from. 0:18:02.109 --> 0:18:02.389 And 0:18:02.650 --> 0:18:06.290 she just appeared all those years ago, and I'm very fortunate, 0:18:06.300 --> 0:18:08.839 and I do feel lucky that she appeared and that 0:18:08.849 --> 0:18:12.069 she had so much in her that it could lead 0:18:12.079 --> 0:18:14.010 to four books, which I had no idea at the 0:18:14.020 --> 0:18:16.229 start was going to happen. So 0:18:16.979 --> 0:18:20.099 it's more just like an appreciation that I managed to 0:18:20.109 --> 0:18:24.239 land on a character that had that ability. But I 0:18:24.250 --> 0:18:28.069 don't really feel bad in a way. I think it's 0:18:28.079 --> 0:18:31.160 just that just the right time to end that theory, 0:18:31.170 --> 0:18:36.130 then I think also it's coincided with the books being 0:18:36.140 --> 0:18:39.699 turned into a TV show. So in a way, I 0:18:39.709 --> 0:18:43.239 feel like she's getting this extra life all over again. 0:18:43.250 --> 0:18:46.239 So maybe that's also helping it not feel like it's over. 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:50.448 Yeah, yeah, OK, so returning to body of lies specifically 0:18:50.660 --> 0:18:53.520 just give us a little. So Gemma's back in her hometown. 0:18:53.530 --> 0:18:55.859 She is at the hospital with her dad. 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:02.170 Essentially, what happens just to give people a little brief? Yeah, so, yes, 0:19:02.180 --> 0:19:05.589 Gemma's visiting her dad at the hospital who is unwell 0:19:05.869 --> 0:19:09.339 and they are talking. She's about to go home. She's 0:19:09.349 --> 0:19:12.979 visiting him after hours. She's on parental leave, so she's 0:19:12.989 --> 0:19:15.500 not on the job. She's not being a detective in 0:19:15.510 --> 0:19:20.219 that moment, and suddenly the hospital is plummeted into darkness. 0:19:20.229 --> 0:19:21.180 There's a blackout, 0:19:21.770 --> 0:19:24.780 and no one knows what's going on. The generators kick in, 0:19:24.790 --> 0:19:27.270 and as Gemma's going down to the main area to 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:30.760 work out what is happening, it becomes apparent that someone 0:19:30.770 --> 0:19:33.149 has stolen a body from the morgue during the blackout. 0:19:33.810 --> 0:19:37.579 And the body is that of an unidentified woman who 0:19:37.589 --> 0:19:41.140 was brought in just hanging on to life, following a 0:19:41.150 --> 0:19:45.130 really dramatic car accident earlier in the evening. Um, and 0:19:45.140 --> 0:19:47.520 then she dies on arrival. So that was her body 0:19:47.530 --> 0:19:49.780 in the morgue, and someone had taken it. So it 0:19:49.790 --> 0:19:54.130 becomes very much a situation of Who was she? Why 0:19:54.140 --> 0:19:56.939 would someone want to steal her body? Was she good 0:19:56.949 --> 0:20:00.910 or bad with the car crash, an intentional one or 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:01.699 an accident? 0:20:02.060 --> 0:20:06.760 What happened? And Gemma, while not technically being on the job, 0:20:06.770 --> 0:20:10.680 just cannot help herself from getting involved in the mystery, 0:20:10.689 --> 0:20:13.159 because it's just right up her alley. In terms of 0:20:13.170 --> 0:20:15.959 something that she wants to solve, and that the added 0:20:15.969 --> 0:20:19.560 complexity of the fact that the detective that essentially has 0:20:19.569 --> 0:20:23.180 replaced her while she's been on leave is someone that 0:20:23.189 --> 0:20:27.560