Pamela Cook: Welcome to Rights for Women, a podcast all about celebrating
Pamela Cook: women's voices and supporting women writers.
Pamela Cook: I'm Pamela Cook, women's fiction author, writing teacher, mentor and podcaster.
Pamela Cook: Before beginning today's chat, I would like to acknowledge and
Pamela Cook: pay my respects to the DRA Wal People, the traditional
Pamela Cook: custodians of the land on which this podcast is being recorded,
Pamela Cook: along with the traditional owners of the land throughout Australia
Pamela Cook: and a quick reminder that there could be strong language
Pamela Cook: and adult concepts discussed in this podcast. So please be
Pamela Cook: aware of this. If you have Children around,
Pamela Cook: let's relax on the convo couch and chat to this
Pamela Cook: week's guest.
Pamela Cook: Hello and welcome to another episode of Rights for Women.
Pamela Cook: This week we have something very special. A guest host
Pamela Cook: Ray Cairns, talking to a fantastically loved crime author. Sarah
Pamela Cook: Bailey Sarah is the author of six. I Think It
Pamela Cook: is Crime novels, and this is a fantastic chat between
Pamela Cook: Ray and Sarah,
Pamela Cook: two wonderful crime authors chatting about Sarah's books, of course,
Pamela Cook: particularly her latest release, Body of Lies, but also really
Pamela Cook: getting into the writing process. And there's some great stuff
Pamela Cook: here on how Sarah goes about research, how she fits
Pamela Cook: writing into a very busy life with three Children and
Pamela Cook: a full time job. All
Pamela Cook: so a whole lot of other things about the writing process.
Pamela Cook: So I think you're going to really love this interview
Pamela Cook: regardless of whether you are a crime author or not,
Pamela Cook: or whether you're a crime reader or not. This is
Pamela Cook: one for all readers and writers, I think, and it's
Pamela Cook: a really interesting conversation. Hope you enjoy it as much
Pamela Cook: as I enjoyed listening to it as I was editing it.
Pamela Cook: Ray Cairns is the author of The Good Mother
Pamela Cook: and Dying to Know two brilliant crime slash thriller novels
Pamela Cook: about ordinary women caught in very extraordinary situations. If you
Pamela Cook: haven't read Ray Ray's books yet, I highly recommend them.
Pamela Cook: They're absolutely gripping and page turning, and you can find
Pamela Cook: the links to buy them in the show Notes for
Pamela Cook: this episode. Not a whole lot for me to report
Pamela Cook: this week in terms of my own writing. I've finally
Pamela Cook: finished the editing slash proofread on both Blackwater Lake and
Pamela Cook: out of the Ashes
Pamela Cook: to get them ready for print and E book release
Pamela Cook: later in the year,
Pamela Cook: and I've also done my novella proofread that's gone off
Pamela Cook: to the publisher at HQ. Harp Collins for this year's
Pamela Cook: Christmas Anthology. Just today. Actually, the novella that I wrote
Pamela Cook: for last year's anthology A Christmas to Remember has been
Pamela Cook: released into the wild on its own, so you can
Pamela Cook: grab that for just 299 as an eBook, along with
Pamela Cook: any of the individual novellas from that anthology. So if
Pamela Cook: you feel like just dipping into one or two of them,
Pamela Cook: highly recommend you grab those at your favourite eBook retailer.
Pamela Cook: Also, I wanted to give a shout out to all
Pamela Cook: the people following along on my diary of a Procrastinator
Pamela Cook: patreon series. This is for the family level supporters who
Pamela Cook: pay $5 a month.
Pamela Cook: And what I've been doing the last couple of weeks
Pamela Cook: is doing an analysis of Donna Cameron's opening chapter for
Pamela Cook: the Rewilding. Because I think it's just a really great
Pamela Cook: gripping opening chapter, and it's a masterclass on how to
Pamela Cook: write an opening chapter. So I've been reading that along
Pamela Cook: with the patreon peeps and digging into what makes that
Pamela Cook: such a great opening. Now that I've finished doing all
Pamela Cook: my edits, I'm going to be get getting back to
Pamela Cook: my own writing,
Pamela Cook: and I will be sharing, uh, my process as I
Pamela Cook: write the third in the Black Water Lake series, a
Pamela Cook: place of her own. I'm already 25,000 words into that,
Pamela Cook: and I had talked about that at the beginning of
Pamela Cook: the Diary of a Procrastinator series. But I am going
Pamela Cook: back to that tomorrow and will be doing a few
Pamela Cook: updates each week for the patreon people just talking about
Pamela Cook: my writing process, talking about any difficulties that I'm coming across,
Pamela Cook: what I'm doing to get over them, talking about characterization,
Pamela Cook: getting words on the page, anything at all to do
Pamela Cook: with the process of getting that first draught down.
Pamela Cook: And I'll be doing that in a fairly short period
Pamela Cook: of time because it does need to get to the
Pamela Cook: publisher in a few months. So follow along, aiming to
Pamela Cook: do a nano this month and make a 50,000 words
Pamela Cook: in a month. I'm also planning on doing a kind
Pamela Cook: of write along sessions with the patreon people, where I'll
Pamela Cook: just send a zoom link through, and anybody that wants
Pamela Cook: to join me for a you know, half hour or
Pamela Cook: one hour writing session as we motivate each other, that
Pamela Cook: will be happening and so you can find out all
Pamela Cook: about the Patreon programme on writes for Women.com/patreon.
Pamela Cook: So let's get on with this week's chat. Ray Cairn's
Pamela Cook: Chatting to Crime author Sarah Bailey, and it's a really
Pamela Cook: great one. Hope you enjoy.
Pamela Cook: Hi and welcome
Rae Cairns: to this episode Rights for Women. My name is Rae Cairns.
Rae Cairns: I write crime fiction, and I'm one of Pam's guest
Rae Cairns: hosts for 2024. It's my absolute pleasure to be speaking
Rae Cairns: with Sarah Bailey today about her fifth full length novel
Rae Cairns: but sixth publication, Body of Lies. We'll also chat about
Rae Cairns: her writing process and how that may have changed since
Rae Cairns: Book one.
Rae Cairns: Sarah Bailey is the author of the internationally award winning
Rae Cairns: Gemma Woodstock series, as well as the best selling Stand-alone novel,
Rae Cairns: The Housemate and an audible Original Final Act. The debut
Rae Cairns: and first of four Gemma novels, The Dark Lake won
Rae Cairns: the Ned Kelly Award for Best First Crime Fiction and
Rae Cairns: the David Award for best debut Body of Lies, the
Rae Cairns: fourth book in the Gemma series, was released in March
Rae Cairns: this year. Sarah, Welcome to the Convoke Co.
Rae Cairns: Thank you so much, Rae for having me so as
Rae Cairns: well as being an internationally bestselling crime author.
Rae Cairns: You have three sons, one of whom is moving into toddlers.
Rae Cairns: You're also the managing director of the Melbourne and Sydney
Rae Cairns: offices of an advertising agency. So my first question has
Rae Cairns: to be, Do you have any tips on how to
Rae Cairns: keep writing when time is scarce? It's a really good
Rae Cairns: question that I'm currently asking myself if I do have
Rae Cairns: a I do have a book deadline that was on
Rae Cairns: the horizon, and now it feels like it's getting closer
Rae Cairns: and I really need to do something about it.
Rae Cairns: Look, I think with writing, and I'm sure that this
Rae Cairns: is something that you would agree with. You do have
Rae Cairns: to really want to do it because it's hard to
Rae Cairns: find time, and it is deep work like it's that
Rae Cairns: kind of work that you can't dip in and out
Rae Cairns: of at certain phases of the writing process. I used
Rae Cairns: to be a little bit better at doing that, maybe
Rae Cairns: as well, but now I'm finding that I really need
Rae Cairns: enough time to be able to get back into my
Rae Cairns: story and read what's already written and then really think
Rae Cairns: about the next
Rae Cairns: steps and the next themes and what, what not. So
Rae Cairns: I find that if I have half an hour,
Rae Cairns: I can't do much with that. Like I can potentially
Rae Cairns: do a tiny bit of editing. But to really make
Rae Cairns: progress on a manuscript, I do need a couple of hours,
Rae Cairns: at least set aside better than if a day, if possible.
Rae Cairns: So
Rae Cairns: time is the real challenge. When it comes to writing
Rae Cairns: for me, I try to find blocks of time where
Rae Cairns: I can just cordon myself off. And I do work
Rae Cairns: quite quickly, which I think is lucky. I'm quite a far, uh,
Rae Cairns: thinker and a fast writer that both in your first
Rae Cairns: draught and in your editing you find you quite quick.
Rae Cairns: Yeah, I think so. Just talking to other writers, and
Rae Cairns: it's obviously really hard to compare and tell because you
Rae Cairns: don't actually sit with someone else while they're writing. But
Rae Cairns: from what they tell me, I feel like I am.
Rae Cairns: I don't really second guess my decision. I'm not someone
Rae Cairns: that agonises over every word. I'm fairly pragmatic, I think
Rae Cairns: when it comes to writing so particularly in that first draught.
Rae Cairns: I'm all about just getting the story out,
Rae Cairns: getting it down, making sure it's making sense to me,
Rae Cairns: having the loose beats of the story as clear as
Rae Cairns: I can. The editing process is a bit different because
Rae Cairns: you do have to be a little bit more thoughtful,
Rae Cairns: and there is more of a kind of agonising over
Rae Cairns: removing a scene or changing a character or big decisions.
Rae Cairns: So that is a bit lower by nature.
Rae Cairns: Um, and I go into, I think, quite a different
Rae Cairns: pace from an editing point of view than I do
Rae Cairns: with a like draught point of view. So do you
Rae Cairns: tend to try and put aside a day on the
Rae Cairns: weekend or Yeah, is that true? I do back working
Rae Cairns: full time. Now I am back working full time, and
Rae Cairns: the honest answer to your question is I actually don't
Rae Cairns: know exactly how it's going to work now because I've
Rae Cairns: never written with a baby before. My other Children were,
Rae Cairns: I think, about four and seven or so when I
Rae Cairns: first started writing,
Rae Cairns: which is obviously quite a different ball game, because they
Rae Cairns: were able to be entertaining themselves or di, different kind
Rae Cairns: of patent, of sleeping and things like that. You know
Rae Cairns: how it's gonna go. It'll be a bit of an experiment,
Rae Cairns: and we'll find out. But I'm lucky. I've obviously got
Rae Cairns: a supportive partner so I can negotiate specific blocks of time.
Rae Cairns: But there is limited time to negotiate because work's already
Rae Cairns: taken up a very big chunk of it, and my
Rae Cairns: work's quite unpredictable, too. So even though it's full time
Rae Cairns: and it's full time hours, we
Rae Cairns: work in an industry where pitches come in or things change.
Rae Cairns: And so even planning out weeknight to get two or
Rae Cairns: three hours done can be a bit of a challenge,
Rae Cairns: because it just doesn't always work out that way. But
Rae Cairns: I'm just someone that
Rae Cairns: I guess I don't stress about it. I feel like
Rae Cairns: it's always worked out in the past, one way or another.
Rae Cairns: I feel optimistic that it will continue to work out
Rae Cairns: one way or another, and it's like Mike said here
Rae Cairns: before that, that you've got to want to write.
Rae Cairns: That's right. I was saying to someone the other day,
Rae Cairns: I when I'm not writing, I miss it. And so
Rae Cairns: I guess thats good to know. It's a sort of
Rae Cairns: It's actually quite a nice thing to miss something, because
Rae Cairns: I feel like that means that it is something that
Rae Cairns: you wanna do. But that doesn't mean obviously that when
Rae Cairns: you sit down, it's easy. I wish that it was
Rae Cairns: getting easier and easier, but I actually don't feel that
Rae Cairns: it's gotten any easier for me to do that over
Rae Cairns: the six books. It hasn't got easier.
Rae Cairns: No, not really. I think it's just because each book
Rae Cairns: is its own unique puzzle and has its own sort
Rae Cairns: of unique challenges. And I think that the main thing
Rae Cairns: I've learned is to have that optimism, that it will
Rae Cairns: get done because it has gotten done before, so I
Rae Cairns: don't tend to stress about it. But it certainly
Rae Cairns: I don't really necessarily feel like I've got all these
Rae Cairns: skills that I've accumulated that have that make it easier.
Rae Cairns: It's like a confidence in there somewhere that I'll figure
Rae Cairns: it out. But each book is yeah, its own unique beast.
Rae Cairns: So it's a strange craft. I think in that sense,
Rae Cairns: because I guess you learn skills, but I don't know
Rae Cairns: there's something about it that makes every book feel like
Rae Cairns: a special challenge.
Rae Cairns: But isn't that The other thing is that you're learning
Rae Cairns: from each book, so as a craft, you keep learning.
Rae Cairns: It's not like you go, Oh, I've done that. So yeah,
Rae Cairns: and obviously that's part of why it's so rewarding because
Rae Cairns: there is the struggle. Like, I think that if it
Rae Cairns: was easy, it would just not be nearly as attractive
Rae Cairns: to just be a writer, because I think that even
Rae Cairns: though we all find it, I think most people find
Rae Cairns: it quite challenging and certainly a big project to take on.
Rae Cairns: If it was easy, I just don't think you'd have
Rae Cairns: that satisfaction at the end that that is so special
Rae Cairns: for me, that achievement of standing back and looking at
Rae Cairns: a book and thinking about all the hours and decisions
Rae Cairns: that went into it and the changes and the way
Rae Cairns: that I had to navigate it. That's so much a
Rae Cairns: part of the satisfaction that comes from writing. And I
Rae Cairns: think it's also because in our world there's so few
Rae Cairns: opportunities to complete a project in a way that feels
Rae Cairns: like a full circle,
Rae Cairns: something that you can tick off most of the things
Rae Cairns: I work on in my other job, I sort of
Rae Cairns: there's projects that get completed, but they just roll on
Rae Cairns: to some extent as well. Whereas I think with a
Rae Cairns: book it's done
Rae Cairns: and you get to hold it and look at it
Rae Cairns: and reflect on it. And maybe it's perfect, but it's
Rae Cairns: a completed piece. It's really it is really special. And II.
Rae Cairns: I think that it is a huge driving motivation during
Rae Cairns: the process, like all of those times where you be
Rae Cairns: bothered writing today or gosh, this is hard or I
Rae Cairns: don't know how to fix this editorial feedback that that
Rae Cairns: feeling that you're chasing to complete it is certainly the
Rae Cairns: thing that keeps me going, I think,
Rae Cairns: Yeah, absolutely. On that huge congratulations on Body of Lies
Rae Cairns: I absolutely loved. It was the the twists and the
Rae Cairns: red herrings and the way you wrangle numerous plot lines
Rae Cairns: and still keep the build of tension going. And it's also,
Rae Cairns: I think, a lesson in how to make a book
Rae Cairns: in a series work as a stand alone novel like
Rae Cairns: it really sits as a stand alone novel as well,
Rae Cairns: which I I learned from that. So can you tell
Rae Cairns: us a bit about the story?
Rae Cairns: Yes, I can. And thank you, Rae. So much for
Rae Cairns: those kind words. It's really nice to hear all of
Rae Cairns: that feedback. Yeah. So the book is the fourth book
Rae Cairns: in the Detective Gemma Woodstock series. And I have to
Rae Cairns: say at the start, the idea came the premise. The
Rae Cairns: idea of this book came before it was part of
Rae Cairns: the series. Like I was considering it as a stand
Rae Cairns: alone idea. This was just in my mind. I never
Rae Cairns: put pen to paper, but
Rae Cairns: I was thinking about this premise of a body being
Rae Cairns: stolen from a hospital morgue. And I was loosely in
Rae Cairns: my mind, had another detective character tied to it completely
Rae Cairns: new character. And I was just thinking how that might
Rae Cairns: all come together. And then there was a few things
Rae Cairns: that sort of fell into place. So I decided it
Rae Cairns: needed to be in a regional country
Rae Cairns: town just to make the premise more believable. So the
Rae Cairns: idea that a body could get stolen from a hospital
Rae Cairns: felt like something that would be more likely to happen
Rae Cairns: in these regional sort of towns. Just based on the
Rae Cairns: way the hospital and the morgue relationship works. And so
Rae Cairns: once I started framing it into that setting,
Rae Cairns: Gemma popped up. And I'd already had this idea a
Rae Cairns: long time ago of her being at a at the
Rae Cairns: hospital with an unwell family member. And so I thought, Oh,
Rae Cairns: she's already there. And so, yeah, it was a funny
Rae Cairns: kind of process because I hadn't necessarily planned
Rae Cairns: to write another Gemma book. I hadn't definitively written it off,
Rae Cairns: but I certainly hadn't planned to write a four. The third.
Rae Cairns: The third one, sort of ends in a way that
Rae Cairns: I would have been happy with, I think. But once
Rae Cairns: she started to mule her way into the story, it
Rae Cairns: was so clear to me that there needed to be
Rae Cairns: this fourth book and her story needed to continue. Yeah,
Rae Cairns: it was really nice, actually, because then I had the
Rae Cairns: character to put into the premise of the story.
Rae Cairns: But I, I really started writing this book quite a
Rae Cairns: long time ago. Like I started the sort of few
Rae Cairns: first few chapters of this book when we were in
Rae Cairns: lockdown in Melbourne in 2020 then parked it for a
Rae Cairns: few months and was finishing the housemaid and got really
Rae Cairns: busy doing that, and then ended up back in the
Rae Cairns: opposite work and back being busy again. So I had
Rae Cairns: about 25,000 words that sat on this manuscript for, I think,
Rae Cairns: over 18 months,
Rae Cairns: and I really didn't touch it for that whole time
Rae Cairns: and then went back and did really like the premise
Rae Cairns: really felt like it was worthy of pursuing. So worked
Rae Cairns: through how it was all going to play out. But
Rae Cairns: it changed quite a bit. And the subplot that you
Rae Cairns: mentioned really didn't come into play until I went back
Rae Cairns: and revisited it. Like that 1st, 25,000 words was quite
Rae Cairns: straightforward. Initially, it was very much just around the key premise,
Rae Cairns: and that was the focus, and that was it.
Rae Cairns: And then it wasn't until later that I laid it
Rae Cairns: in with some of these other characters and subplot situations,
Rae Cairns: which
Rae Cairns: Gemma was really helpful because I know so much about
Rae Cairns: her and her world. I was then able to create
Rae Cairns: the other kind of tensions and stories beyond that kind
Rae Cairns: of core proposition of the book, so it was a
Rae Cairns: Really Yeah, it's been a It was a really fun
Rae Cairns: one to write. I'm gonna say that now, but we'll
Rae Cairns: stick to that. I do remember at the time there
Rae Cairns: were quite a few challenges, and I did edit this
Rae Cairns: book with a very young baby. So I got the
Rae Cairns: I did the first past the draught
Rae Cairns: when he was about a month old, which was interesting.
Rae Cairns: But as you would have known from reading the book,
Rae Cairns: Gemma's also has a newborn in the book. And so
Rae Cairns: it wasn't ever intended to be life imitating art because
Rae Cairns: I started this book quite a long time ago.
Rae Cairns: Before there was any idea in my mind that I
Rae Cairns: would have another child. But it did end up that
Rae Cairns: she's navigating crimes then with a baby strapped to her front,
Rae Cairns: and I was kind of like typing around a baby
Rae Cairns: strapped to my front, so it was quite funny. You know,
Rae Cairns: those those bits the little snippets about work beautifully about.
Rae Cairns: So yeah, it's like method writing. You should go a
Rae Cairns: long way, don't you to get I Really? Yeah. For
Rae Cairns: my art. I'll do anything better. Yeah. So it was
Rae Cairns: a sort of an interesting process overall, and certainly the
Rae Cairns: longest I've ever taken to to work on a book.
Rae Cairns: Not that I think it actually, if you added up
Rae Cairns: all the time, it took me overall, it probably didn't
Rae Cairns: end up being any longer than the others. But it
Rae Cairns: was just spread over quite a few years.
Rae Cairns: Yeah, which I think probably ended up helping with the
Rae Cairns: book because it's I think did need quite a lot
Rae Cairns: of colour and that
Rae Cairns: because it's the last book in the series, I really
Rae Cairns: wanted to make sure it came full circle and so
Rae Cairns: setting it back in Gemma's hometown, she's back to where
Rae Cairns: it all started. And I think the growth
Rae Cairns: that she has in this book is really important and
Rae Cairns: makes me feel good about ending the series. I think
Rae Cairns: like it does feel like it has got the right ending.
Rae Cairns: So was it a hard decision to decide to end
Rae Cairns: the series? I don't know, like I do get asked
Rae Cairns: quite a bit if I miss her or was I
Rae Cairns: sad and I like not really. It didn't feel particularly emotional.
Rae Cairns: I think like she's been such that I feel lucky
Rae Cairns: that I thought of her. I, I suppose, is more
Rae Cairns: where I get to no idea where she came from.
Rae Cairns: And
Rae Cairns: she just appeared all those years ago, and I'm very fortunate,
Rae Cairns: and I do feel lucky that she appeared and that
Rae Cairns: she had so much in her that it could lead
Rae Cairns: to four books, which I had no idea at the
Rae Cairns: start was going to happen. So
Rae Cairns: it's more just like an appreciation that I managed to
Rae Cairns: land on a character that had that ability. But I
Rae Cairns: don't really feel bad in a way. I think it's
Rae Cairns: just that just the right time to end that theory,
Rae Cairns: then I think also it's coincided with the books being
Rae Cairns: turned into a TV show. So in a way, I
Rae Cairns: feel like she's getting this extra life all over again.
Rae Cairns: So maybe that's also helping it not feel like it's over.
Rae Cairns: Yeah, yeah, OK, so returning to body of lies specifically
Rae Cairns: just give us a little. So Gemma's back in her hometown.
Rae Cairns: She is at the hospital with her dad.
Rae Cairns: Essentially, what happens just to give people a little brief? Yeah, so, yes,
Rae Cairns: Gemma's visiting her dad at the hospital who is unwell
Rae Cairns: and they are talking. She's about to go home. She's
Rae Cairns: visiting him after hours. She's on parental leave, so she's
Rae Cairns: not on the job. She's not being a detective in
Rae Cairns: that moment, and suddenly the hospital is plummeted into darkness.
Rae Cairns: There's a blackout,
Rae Cairns: and no one knows what's going on. The generators kick in,
Rae Cairns: and as Gemma's going down to the main area to
Rae Cairns: work out what is happening, it becomes apparent that someone
Rae Cairns: has stolen a body from the morgue during the blackout.
Rae Cairns: And the body is that of an unidentified woman who
Rae Cairns: was brought in just hanging on to life, following a
Rae Cairns: really dramatic car accident earlier in the evening. Um, and
Rae Cairns: then she dies on arrival. So that was her body
Rae Cairns: in the morgue, and someone had taken it. So it
Rae Cairns: becomes very much a situation of Who was she? Why
Rae Cairns: would someone want to steal her body? Was she good
Rae Cairns: or bad with the car crash, an intentional one or
Rae Cairns: an accident?
Rae Cairns: What happened? And Gemma, while not technically being on the job,
Rae Cairns: just cannot help herself from getting involved in the mystery,
Rae Cairns: because it's just right up her alley. In terms of
Rae Cairns: something that she wants to solve, and that the added
Rae Cairns: complexity of the fact that the detective that essentially has
Rae Cairns: replaced her while she's been on leave is someone that
Rae Cairns: she doesn't particularly like. But there is a professional competitiveness
Rae Cairns: to their relationship that
Rae Cairns: really comes to the fore as she's trying to wrangle
Rae Cairns: herself back into the investigation. Yeah, so she's got the investigation,
Rae Cairns: and then she's got her work life with this kind
Rae Cairns: of conflict with every and then she's also got a
Rae Cairns: whole new change at home with a newborn baby because
Rae Cairns: she has an older son. But then she's got the baby.
Rae Cairns: So she's got a lot going on in her life.
Rae Cairns: She was already having a little bit of a crisis
Rae Cairns: of career confidence or almost even. What does she actually want?
Rae Cairns: And I guess that the pull of the case makes
Rae Cairns: it very clear that there is something about that role
Rae Cairns: and that career that that absolutely is intrinsic in her.
Rae Cairns: Yeah, but she does have some decisions to make you
Rae Cairns: know about the future. And does she want to really
Rae Cairns: double down on her ambition and progress in in that
Rae Cairns: career and climb the ladder, or is it time to
Rae Cairns: think about doing something different? So she's got all of
Rae Cairns: that uncertainty swirling around in her mind. The baby as
Rae Cairns: well as which is the
Rae Cairns: Let's be honest, a physical inconvenience was that thunder work.
Rae Cairns: So having to navigate like the logistics of a baby
Rae Cairns: and the logistics of a case that's really not compatible.
Rae Cairns: So she's navigating that as well, about how she navigated
Rae Cairns: that with her son. So she's, Yeah, she's trying to
Rae Cairns: do it better this time around. Gemma, you impulsive and selfish,
Rae Cairns: and she's very morally.
Rae Cairns: She wants to always do the right thing, but that
Rae Cairns: doesn't her behaviour. To get to doing the right thing
Rae Cairns: doesn't always play well with others. So she's always fighting
Rae Cairns: against herself to some extent, and I think that certainly
Rae Cairns: comes through, too. It does absolutely. Chris Hammer calls her
Rae Cairns: his favourite Australian detective.
Rae Cairns: Him and I, she's an absolute cracker, like she's flawed
Rae Cairns: and relatable and infuriating all at the same time. Where's
Rae Cairns: Chris Ham for saying that considering he had his own
Rae Cairns: his own, which I said to him, I'm like, What
Rae Cairns: are you talking about? But no, it is a very
Rae Cairns: nice thing of him to say, But she's also like
Rae Cairns: you said. Sometimes she makes this decision. She's quite polarising
Rae Cairns: and with within the world of the novel,
Rae Cairns: but also with readers. At times, they definitely I get
Rae Cairns: lots of feedback. I, I have found particularly older women,
Rae Cairns: find her infuriating. Like when they talk to me about her,
Rae Cairns: they can often be like she's just so frustrating. I
Rae Cairns: just want to give her a good shake, and I'm like, OK,
Rae Cairns: but I, I totally understand that. And I think
Rae Cairns: the good thing or the interesting thing for me in
Rae Cairns: having managed her character before ball was the chance to
Rae Cairns: have her
Rae Cairns: self reflect more. In her first book, she she's aware
Rae Cairns: of some of her actions not being ideal, but in
Rae Cairns: a way that is quite defensive. Still, she's justified it
Rae Cairns: all the time to herself, whereas by the fourth book
Rae Cairns: we've actually got a person who is able to
Rae Cairns: step back sometimes and think about why am I doing this?
Rae Cairns: Why am I thinking this way? Why do I have
Rae Cairns: the inclination to respond like that? Like she is able
Rae Cairns: to reflect on her behaviour and regulate it. To some extent,
Rae Cairns: she did mature so much over the four books, and
Rae Cairns: yet you clearly didn't plan to have the fourth book.
Rae Cairns: No second or the third character arc across the four
Rae Cairns: books has just happened with each book. You didn't have
Rae Cairns: that a thought process about that
Rae Cairns: at the When I wrote the first book, there was
Rae Cairns: no I didn't even know if I'd finished that book.
Rae Cairns: So there was definitely no conscious thought around continuing that
Rae Cairns: character across the series, I think I, I do remember one.
Rae Cairns: It became clear that the publisher wanted a second book.
Rae Cairns: I did remember feeling very strongly, like an instinct that
Rae Cairns: she had to move away from the
Rae Cairns: so she had to leave Smith then, and she had
Rae Cairns: to go off and have her, like Two Towers book
Rae Cairns: that I remember thinking she had to leave and be
Rae Cairns: challenged in a different way. So I knew that second
Rae Cairns: book had to be a bit of a rock bottom book,
Rae Cairns: which I think, then did have me thinking about the
Rae Cairns: third in a bit of a different energy that had
Rae Cairns: to then be coming back up again. I think in
Rae Cairns: her second book. She does a lot of soul searching,
Rae Cairns: and it's not. She's in a not a good spot,
Rae Cairns: functionally at work. She's fine,
Rae Cairns: but she definitely grapples with a lot of demons and
Rae Cairns: whatnot in that way of leaving home often does make
Rae Cairns: yourself reflect where you have to be a new person
Rae Cairns: in a new info. But yeah, it's always been it's
Rae Cairns: developed as it's gone. And then the fourth book, I
Rae Cairns: suppose I had more time to think about it because
Rae Cairns: I didn't necessarily know it was gonna be a Gemma
Rae Cairns: book for a while. By the time I decided it
Rae Cairns: would be, I felt quite clear that full circle final
Rae Cairns: piece of the puzzle really had to happen,
Rae Cairns: like I was genuinely running out of time to to
Rae Cairns: do it. If I didn't do it in this book,
Rae Cairns: it wasn't gonna happen. And, yeah, it was nice to
Rae Cairns: have the opportunity to have her learn some lessons in
Rae Cairns: a way that I think you feel when you finish
Rae Cairns: this book.
Rae Cairns: Hopefully that she is gonna be OK because she has
Rae Cairns: had to do that growth, and she hasn't just done it. Tokenistic.
Rae Cairns: She's actually really acknowledged it and understood it in a
Rae Cairns: way that you feel is quite key to how she's
Rae Cairns: gonna go ahead into her life into the future. So,
Rae Cairns: yeah, I mean, I some of it sounds really strategic
Rae Cairns: when I say it like this. It doesn't feel that
Rae Cairns: way when I'm writing it. It's much more instinctive than that.
Rae Cairns: But sometimes the subs, isn't it? Yeah, I was just
Rae Cairns: gonna say, I think that's right. Your brain is piecing
Rae Cairns: some of those things together as you're writing. And it's
Rae Cairns: not until you come back to do the editing that
Rae Cairns: you feel like. Oh, yes, those connections are quite clear.
Rae Cairns: And those themes are coming into play here, and obviously,
Rae Cairns: then you can clone bits and pieces to make it, really.
Rae Cairns: But
Rae Cairns: yeah, I think you just Yeah, you man, I've managed
Rae Cairns: her arc in a way that I
Rae Cairns: has made sense to me. But she's still Gemma, and
Rae Cairns: that's the whole point. You have to have someone that is,
Rae Cairns: even when someone grows, they are still themselves, and she
Rae Cairns: is certainly still impulsive, and she will be until the
Rae Cairns: end of her life. What was the inspiration for Gemma
Rae Cairns: like way back when you were right in the dark
Rae Cairns: LA Did she arrive fully formed or did she develop?
Rae Cairns: Or did you think very clearly about her and plan
Rae Cairns: her or do you know what she just,
Rae Cairns: like, literally appeared in my mind as a really fully
Rae Cairns: formed character, Her name
Rae Cairns: in my mind, even what she looked like? I have
Rae Cairns: no idea where she came from. I really couldn't tell you.
Rae Cairns: It was I was playing around with this idea of
Rae Cairns: a murdered high school teacher in a small country town,
Rae Cairns: just knowing that would be such a challenging thing for
Rae Cairns: a community to navigate. And then, second to that, I
Rae Cairns: think Gemma just needed to then be someone that had
Rae Cairns: a relationship with this victim. And
Rae Cairns: she disappeared in my mind. I could just see her
Rae Cairns: tramping around the lake in the dark lake,
Rae Cairns: looking at this high school peer of hers that was
Rae Cairns: murdered 10 years later. And I never had to down
Rae Cairns: and plan out,
Rae Cairns: like her back story or her character or what? Whatever.
Rae Cairns: It was just all genuinely there. She elbowed a way
Rae Cairns: in like she does in her job. Like genu. Yeah, absolutely.
Rae Cairns: And even things like I knew she had lost her
Rae Cairns: mother as a teenager. I. I knew she had this
Rae Cairns: lovely but removed relationship with her dad like it was
Rae Cairns: all quite clear in my mind right from the start.
Rae Cairns: But she has never been particularly challenging for me to write.
Rae Cairns: It's more been the world around her.
Rae Cairns: You've got quite a a cast of characters in Body
Rae Cairns: of Lies. How do you keep track of them all?
Rae Cairns: How do you like? Because there's a lot. Yeah, it's
Rae Cairns: a nightmare. It's a total, but it's it is tricky,
Rae Cairns: like I. I think what I've realised I do. Looking
Rae Cairns: back on all of the books that I've written,
Rae Cairns: I'm pretty good at holding everything in my mind for
Rae Cairns: the first sort of 40 50,000 words of all my
Rae Cairns: books people, an idea that don't know about How long
Rae Cairns: are your books like this one? About 100,000 words Almost
Rae Cairns: all of them have been. None of them have been
Rae Cairns: less than 100,000 words, so they're all 100 to 110.
Rae Cairns: So I tend to get to the halfway ish mark
Rae Cairns: and
Rae Cairns: yeah, it can be quite smugly all in my mind,
Rae Cairns: I don't plan anything. So it's all just in my mind,
Rae Cairns: and I'm quite confident up until that point. And then
Rae Cairns: I tend to find that I open the file and
Rae Cairns: it loads, and I start to realise that I've lost track.
Rae Cairns: What's happening? What has to happen next, who everyone is,
Rae Cairns: all the subplots and I'm like, Ah,
Rae Cairns: and that's when I almost have a little pause moment
Rae Cairns: and I almost have to go back and write out
Rae Cairns: almost what's been in my own book so far, just
Rae Cairns: so that I can get it straight so I'll tend
Rae Cairns: to at that point, print it out. Go write in
Rae Cairns: Chapter one. This happens, and I do a bit more
Rae Cairns: of a visual sort of plan, like just on a
Rae Cairns: post it thing on the wall. Which, to be honest,
Rae Cairns: I actually think, is me just buying myself some time
Rae Cairns: to recalibrate and reorient myself around my own book.
Rae Cairns: Because as I do that, I tend to then realise
Rae Cairns: that I'm figuring out what happens next and what hasn't
Rae Cairns: been closed up off or tied up from a threads
Rae Cairns: point of view and where subplots are and aren't working.
Rae Cairns: It is mainly so unconscious. But I start to realise, OK,
Rae Cairns: that's missing. That's not very clear during if it halfway through.
Rae Cairns: And then I go back in again and keep drafting,
Rae Cairns: but with a little bit more of
Rae Cairns: re like a reboot. OK, I'm in a bit of
Rae Cairns: a better place now. I think I can get to
Rae Cairns: the end of this book. Hopefully because I've had this
Rae Cairns: little review to myself around. What the hell is Yeah
Rae Cairns: OK, so what is the physical draught look like for you?
Rae Cairns: Like that first draught? You you type, you don't handwrite.
Rae Cairns: Is it in word? Is it in Scribner? Is it
Rae Cairns: in some other? Oh, I wish it was in Scribner
Rae Cairns: because it sounds really organised, but it's just in word
Rae Cairns: when you Yeah, but I mean, it's a bit tricky, actually.
Rae Cairns: To even say, Is it a first draught or is
Rae Cairns: it like a
Rae Cairns: the the 15th draught? Because I will, by that point,
Rae Cairns: like by the time I sort of print out what
Rae Cairns: I call the first draught,
Rae Cairns: I have edited it a lot. I have gone back
Rae Cairns: and probably already rearranged things, and I've given it a
Rae Cairns: good sweep over as well. And so it's a weird.
Rae Cairns: It is a first full draught, but it will still
Rae Cairns: have bits where I'll be not yourself, saying this needs
Rae Cairns: to change or this chapter's not quite right or this
Rae Cairns: might not be in the right spot, so it'll have
Rae Cairns: sort of little notes all over it. It'll have lots
Rae Cairns: of things highlighted in yellow when something in my books
Rae Cairns: highlighted in yellow, it means I know it's not good,
Rae Cairns: but I can't be bothered fixing it right now. So
Rae Cairns: unfortunate that I will go to office work and I'll
Rae Cairns: be like, Oh, look at all that yellow that needs
Rae Cairns: to be solved. But But I think for me the
Rae Cairns: first draught is
Rae Cairns: it's like tagging the finish line. It's like I've got
Rae Cairns: to the end. It has a start. It has a finish.
Rae Cairns: It has a middle.
Rae Cairns: Things need to be fixed and changed, I know, but
Rae Cairns: at least the full story has got its shape. That's
Rae Cairns: actually your way of getting through. A first draught is
Rae Cairns: going OK. I'll holler, light it in yellow and then
Rae Cairns: I can just keep going rather than getting down inside Yes.
Rae Cairns: I was gonna ask you a hint of getting words
Rae Cairns: on the page for that first draught. And you Yeah,
Rae Cairns: yeah, I know. I'm very clear on. I would never
Rae Cairns: finish a book if I didn't just keep going. I
Rae Cairns: need the momentum of the writing process. It's momentum feeds
Rae Cairns: momentum for me, I think. And I find if I
Rae Cairns: stop and get dark and
Rae Cairns: kind of start to really procrastinate or weigh up different
Rae Cairns: scenarios or whatever, I lose my own kind of momentum.
Rae Cairns: So I think that's why even at that halfway mark, where,
Rae Cairns: Let's be honest, I do get stuck. I don't know
Rae Cairns: if I'd call it writer's block or just like bad planning,
Rae Cairns: but I think that's why I then do switch. Just
Rae Cairns: let's go back through the book and work out what's
Rae Cairns: happening so I can keep moving. And that, for me,
Rae Cairns: is just that
Rae Cairns: perpetual motion kind of approach. If I'm not writing words
Rae Cairns: down and doing something,
Rae Cairns: I really start to feel like like I can't make
Rae Cairns: the book work, so I think for me, it's that
Rae Cairns: keep moving, keep going. I mean, if one scene's not working,
Rae Cairns: jump to another one you jump ahead to a different scene.
Rae Cairns: Just so you're writing correct? Yeah, I would much rather
Rae Cairns: especially because I think I have such limited time. I
Rae Cairns: guess that's also probably part of it. But I'm very
Rae Cairns: much OK. That scene's not working. So I might say
Rae Cairns: absolutely something that needs to happen here is
Rae Cairns: this character needs to turn up and reveal this information,
Rae Cairns: and I'll put I'll literally just put that in the
Rae Cairns: jar and then I'll just jump. I'll just jump to
Rae Cairns: another scene where I do feel confident that I know
Rae Cairns: what's happening. I'd much rather spend like the hour that
Rae Cairns: I've got
Rae Cairns: writing a scene, then staring at the screen and not
Rae Cairns: getting anywhere. So I do end up having to tap
Rae Cairns: the ST style ditch all these disparate them together sometimes
Rae Cairns: and then change the joining words and fix it. But
Rae Cairns: I always feel like productivity is progress. You you can't have, uh,
Rae Cairns: for me Anyway, I can't spend hours and hours and
Rae Cairns: not
Rae Cairns: generate words because I just think I'd never get anything
Rae Cairns: done in the end. Yeah, so you write. You don't
Rae Cairns: have a plan. At the beginning, you literally sit down
Rae Cairns: and start writing.
Rae Cairns: Your structures are very strong. So do you in your head?
Rae Cairns: Have a have clear points you need to hit in
Rae Cairns: your structure? Or is it something you've learned through reading
Rae Cairns: or a method you've learned? Or some? Because I think
Rae Cairns: people often get a bit overwhelmed by structure.
Rae Cairns: Yeah, it's I was thinking when you said that I
Rae Cairns: don't have a plan that's true, like I don't have
Rae Cairns: anything written down, but I will. I think I do
Rae Cairns: more work than I give my brain credit for it
Rae Cairns: in my head. So I think I do start with
Rae Cairns: a blank page. I don't have notes, or I might
Rae Cairns: occasionally have written down something that's a small point. But
Rae Cairns: what I do have is a really clear premise with
Rae Cairns: body of Lies. It was very much like
Rae Cairns: Gemma's at the hospital, dealing with her own sort of
Rae Cairns: tragedy Family challenge.
Rae Cairns: Then from Sideways, this amazing crime happens where a body
Rae Cairns: is stolen from the morgue. Very strange, obviously go what happens,
Rae Cairns: so that's very clear when I sit down and start
Rae Cairns: writing and I think in my mind that question really
Rae Cairns: continues to beat through every time I'm sitting down to write,
Rae Cairns: I'm like, Is this still interesting? Is it making sense?
Rae Cairns: Is it moving along in the way that I know
Rae Cairns: it needs to as a reader? And I think the
Rae Cairns: other thing that I do have and I don't know
Rae Cairns: if this analogy makes sense, but
Rae Cairns: and I'm certainly not a painter, but I imagine that
Rae Cairns: when someone starts to think about painting something, they don't
Rae Cairns: know exactly what it's gonna look like. But they have
Rae Cairns: a plan in their mind of what they're trying to create.
Rae Cairns: I will certainly have key beats of the story. So
Rae Cairns: with this book, I guess that there's the overall premise,
Rae Cairns: which is very clear to me. There's then Gemma's having
Rae Cairns: all of these family issues that will end up being quite.
Rae Cairns: I know there's a lot of drama that's gonna come
Rae Cairns: from that. I know what I want
Rae Cairns: to be a big reveal in that subplot perspective. Do
Rae Cairns: you know what the end of that subplot is? Yeah,
Rae Cairns: I did know with that, that family specific secret subplot
Rae Cairns: I knew what that was. I also knew that she
Rae Cairns: was gonna start having doubts about her personal relationship. Would
Rae Cairns: add to the sort of drama and stress of her
Rae Cairns: investigating the crime. I knew that I wanted her friendship
Rae Cairns: with her old friend Candy to be a big part
Rae Cairns: of the book
Rae Cairns: in terms of an important relationship that she really relies on.
Rae Cairns: So that needed to be clear. And I knew she
Rae Cairns: needed to have some tension with her old boss that
Rae Cairns: would really question her relationship with him, which came at
Rae Cairns: a time where she was always also thinking about her career. Well, I,
Rae Cairns: I do know that I've got all of these things
Rae Cairns: that I need to cover off, but I don't always
Rae Cairns: know exactly how. Yeah, Did you know who the perpetrator was?
Rae Cairns: No. But I did know to be honest, Ma, mainly
Rae Cairns: with my books. I always know that it's gonna be
Rae Cairns: one of, say, five people, which is exactly how I
Rae Cairns: think it should be when you read a book. Yeah,
Rae Cairns: so it's almost for me feels like I am writing,
Rae Cairns: but as a reader, it's the same process that I have.
Rae Cairns: When I read other people's books where I'm working toward going,
Rae Cairns: it could be that person. It could be that person
Rae Cairns: it could be that person and really it should and
Rae Cairns: could be any of those people.
Rae Cairns: And then it ends up being one of them. And
Rae Cairns: as long as there's a really clear motivational through line
Rae Cairns: for that to be the case, then that I think
Rae Cairns: a good outcome for a story. But I know as
Rae Cairns: I was writing it, it could have also been any
Rae Cairns: of the other four people as well. And so it's
Rae Cairns: almost like I'm writing it as the way I would
Rae Cairns: read it. And then hopefully that means that where I
Rae Cairns: get to is a good story. If you don't know
Rae Cairns: exactly who did it, then the reader's not gonna necessarily know.
Rae Cairns: Yeah, absolutely. That again. It sounds all very planned. This is,
Rae Cairns: you know, me and my mind, just hoping for the
Rae Cairns: best and typing into the abyss most of the time.
Rae Cairns: But But obviously, when you go back and do the editing,
Rae Cairns: that's also when you have the chance to wrestle things
Rae Cairns: into a slightly better shape, make things a little bit clearer,
Rae Cairns: ensure that the red herrings, if you have them, aren't
Rae Cairns: crazy bonkers. Just swing in from left field.
Rae Cairns: All of those things. So I think the first draught
Rae Cairns: is just a bit terrifying because you are just writing
Rae Cairns: and hoping for the best. But you do obviously then
Rae Cairns: have the chance to craft and fix and update and
Rae Cairns: all that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's funny the whole,
Rae Cairns: because there's talk about plotters and pants and I used
Rae Cairns: to say, Oh, I'm a panther But I realised I
Rae Cairns: just do a lot of the work in my head
Rae Cairns: like it and it's processing. I just don't have it
Rae Cairns: a bit like you, like I had to beat
Rae Cairns: and the kind of a feel. But I don't really
Rae Cairns: know who the perpetrator is. Yeah, it's interesting, that whole thing.
Rae Cairns: I wanna move to research because I'm curious because it's
Rae Cairns: a police procedural. Essentially, even though she's not always employed,
Rae Cairns: will it get in? But she Why do you write
Rae Cairns: a police procedural with start writing? Organically, I guess. Writing
Rae Cairns: straight out. How do you manage the research of the novel?
Rae Cairns: I do have a bit of a a What's it
Rae Cairns: called a theory on research. So I'm very much fiction first,
Rae Cairns: then back and then fix or finesse, and that the
Rae Cairns: three stages of the sort of research process that I follow.
Rae Cairns: And the reason for that is that,
Rae Cairns: like I said before, I really need that energy and
Rae Cairns: momentum in my books and particularly that first draught. If
Rae Cairns: I'm not excited. Ha! Happy to keep moving with my story.
Rae Cairns: I think you can feel that on the page. So
Rae Cairns: I did have to do a little bit of very
Rae Cairns: light research just to make sure that the actual premise
Rae Cairns: made sense. So hospital do have morgues. I needed to
Rae Cairns: make sure that it was realistic that if someone died
Rae Cairns: in the emergency department that they would actually be taken
Rae Cairns: to the hospital morgue and how that kind of would
Rae Cairns: work and what kind of timeline? So I
Rae Cairns: Luckily my mother is a nurse, so she was able
Rae Cairns: to give me the overall
Rae Cairns: reality of how that worked. I did a little bit
Rae Cairns: of research just to have a look online, like what
Rae Cairns: the hospital moves look like, and how are they managed
Rae Cairns: and all of that sort of thing. But that was
Rae Cairns: not significant. It was really just pressure testing my own premise. Yeah,
Rae Cairns: and then once that part of it was clear
Rae Cairns: I just wrote, and I wrote the book,
Rae Cairns: how I wanted it to be. From a story point
Rae Cairns: of view, I would occasionally have to look up online
Rae Cairns: just some of the procedural pieces and just make sure
Rae Cairns: that things made sense broadly so that I wasn't writing
Rae Cairns: 20,000 words on something that just wasn't feasible in any way.
Rae Cairns: As there's quite a health
Rae Cairns: layer in this story, I do just have to orient
Rae Cairns: myself around what is happening in that world at the
Rae Cairns: moment and making sure that some of the things I
Rae Cairns: was talking about were true and realistic. But I would.
Rae Cairns: I don't know how I would quantify this, but the
Rae Cairns: overall research that I would have done for that first
Rae Cairns: draught would be less than a week's worth of effort,
Rae Cairns: because it's really just making sure that there's feasibility
Rae Cairns: around the premise of the book. Once I've got the drawer,
Rae Cairns: that's when I go back and sort of fact check
Rae Cairns: my own story, and I'm very clear that I'm not
Rae Cairns: asking open ended questions of experts. I am very much
Rae Cairns: Is this feasible or possible, Yes or no, because I'm
Rae Cairns: not writing a
Rae Cairns: diary of a police officer. I am writing an extraordinary
Rae Cairns: once in a career type case because that's what is
Rae Cairns: making it an interesting book. Hopefully it just for your paperwork. Yeah, thing.
Rae Cairns: And so I think it's really difficult for experts when
Rae Cairns: you're asking them about their job. They want to be
Rae Cairns: telling you what's realistic and how it actually works, and
Rae Cairns: I want that. But I also don't want that because
Rae Cairns: this is supposed to be a A story, and it
Rae Cairns: is an extraordinary story. That's why it's made a good premise, right?
Rae Cairns: So I'm very much just checking. Is this feed the book?
Rae Cairns: Could this happen? If this happened, could it be the
Rae Cairns: response of a police officer and people get a bit?
Rae Cairns: It's technically possible, and I'm like, Good. And that's all
Rae Cairns: I want from you, The same with the medical
Rae Cairns: information and the science information any like law information. I'm
Rae Cairns: not looking for what is necessarily the most likely not
Rae Cairns: in my books at the moment. Anyway. Maybe that would
Rae Cairns: be in a different kind of book. I'm really wanting
Rae Cairns: to understand. Have I written a story that is within
Rae Cairns: the realm of possibility And then, obviously, occasionally I'll come
Rae Cairns: up with something and they'll say, No, it's not And
Rae Cairns: I'm so then I will have to go back and
Rae Cairns: change it and make sure that it
Rae Cairns: amended in a way that it does fit into that
Rae Cairns: feasible world. And then there's a lot of connecting, obviously,
Rae Cairns: and a lot of the editing that I find I
Rae Cairns: have to do is timeline management.
Rae Cairns: So the order of things, particularly with like DNA testing
Rae Cairns: and things like that, like certain things can't happen quickly.
Rae Cairns: Sometimes things can. And just having to make sure the
Rae Cairns: procedural order of events is accurate and realistic so that
Rae Cairns: someone's not reading the book and just being like, Oh,
Rae Cairns: this is I can't engage with this story because I
Rae Cairns: know that's not lipstick. That's what I'm trying to avoid.
Rae Cairns: But I don't mind if they're a little bit like,
Rae Cairns: Well, I don't think this is likely, but it's a
Rae Cairns: pretty cool story that's fine. That premise of fiction first
Rae Cairns: fiction the genre, I think, is reading that requirement. You
Rae Cairns: are wanting
Rae Cairns: an escape from reality, and they want a realistic story
Rae Cairns: in an unrealistic kind of moment in time. In someone's world.
Rae Cairns: And so I think that's where I'm circling around, getting right.
Rae Cairns: Yeah. The other thing I was I really liked about
Rae Cairns: what you said was not ask, not asking open ended
Rae Cairns: questions because one of my things I was gonna ask
Rae Cairns: you is do you have any tips for writers who
Rae Cairns: have problems in their manuscript about how to one how
Rae Cairns: to find information experts, things like that, But also then
Rae Cairns: how you manage it? So you've already given that one
Rae Cairns: to the no open ended question? Yeah. Any any other
Rae Cairns: tips for writers on how to find? And look, I
Rae Cairns: think
Rae Cairns: I actually think open ended questions. Have a play, have
Rae Cairns: a role to play if you don't have a premise.
Rae Cairns: So I think if you were at the start of
Rae Cairns: a sort of creative project and you have got some
Rae Cairns: thoughts or maybe you've got a character or a setting,
Rae Cairns: I think at that point, if you had access to
Rae Cairns: an expert of some kind, asking them open ended questions
Rae Cairns: at that stage would actually be helpful. I think, in
Rae Cairns: generating some concepts and ideas because they might say something
Rae Cairns: that you're like, Oh, that's a really good thought, but
Rae Cairns: I think that
Rae Cairns: for me anyway, there comes a point in my book
Rae Cairns: where I don't want more feedback than I can handle.
Rae Cairns: I actually really just want to start home like I
Rae Cairns: wanna hone in on where I'm at with my story,
Rae Cairns: not open up more books. So I find that's when
Rae Cairns: I cut out the opening question because I just I
Rae Cairns: can't you get overwhelmed. I think the editing process is
Rae Cairns: already overwhelming for me, so I don't want to then
Rae Cairns: throw in a whole another like range of really overwhelming feedback.
Rae Cairns: So I think that's where I start to get pretty
Rae Cairns: brutal about the yes or no kind of question. But
Rae Cairns: in terms of just advice from from a research point
Rae Cairns: of view, I think it's just engaging in all different
Rae Cairns: kinds of information sources. Podcasts are amazing whether they're true
Rae Cairns: crime or more fictional or opinion. I constantly get ideas
Rae Cairns: from listening to
Rae Cairns: deep dive into different, whether it's a, um, a cold
Rae Cairns: case or just a news report or, uh, it could
Rae Cairns: just be something like like a chatty lifestyle podcast, and
Rae Cairns: you pick up little thoughts about characters or generations or whatever.
Rae Cairns: So I think it's just being open to wherever idea
Rae Cairns: might come from
Rae Cairns: and being curious and going to events. And you go
Rae Cairns: to writer's events and listening to people talking about where
Rae Cairns: they get their inspiration from and, yeah, all of those
Rae Cairns: types of things. So I think it's just engaging in
Rae Cairns: the world. You can go and watch a criminal trial.
Rae Cairns: That's something that you're able to do as a member
Rae Cairns: of the public. So if your cape has one, go
Rae Cairns: and watch one look up news reports and transcripts online.
Rae Cairns: There is a lot of information out there you can
Rae Cairns: access these days particularly,
Rae Cairns: so I think it's just engaging in all of those things.
Rae Cairns: And then it's that kind of thing. Be really broad
Rae Cairns: at the start and then get really specific because you
Rae Cairns: do need to get to a point where you stop
Rae Cairns: collecting information and you write your book. And I know
Rae Cairns: I don't know how people do historical, and I honestly
Rae Cairns: do not understand it because I would. I think I
Rae Cairns: would really struggle to shift from research mode to writing
Rae Cairns: mode and feeling like I had enough information
Rae Cairns: I'd get so bored. I think within two days I'd
Rae Cairns: be like, I need you to start writing And then
Rae Cairns: obviously I'd have no historical context, so it wouldn't make
Rae Cairns: any sense. So I think it's amazing to me that
Rae Cairns: people have the skill that they can go deep on
Rae Cairns: research and then come out of that and write I am,
Rae Cairns: I think too impatient for that to ever be something
Rae Cairns: that I could do properly. So this genre obviously suits
Rae Cairns: me better and this approach or the kind of idea
Rae Cairns: of fiction. First, it also suits me better because it
Rae Cairns: it means I get words down.
Rae Cairns: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So something in your writing that stands
Rae Cairns: out is your ability to keep raising the tension like
Rae Cairns: that is something that I would say is if all
Rae Cairns: your books have that you just keep piling on
Rae Cairns: called J or Ollie or whoever the main character is.
Rae Cairns: But do you have any kind of tips and tricks
Rae Cairns: for tension like it? Does it happen in your first draught?
Rae Cairns: Or is it something you have to go and pull
Rae Cairns: out later or yeah, any tips or ideas about tension
Rae Cairns: in a novel?
Rae Cairns: I think I do have to give my editor, Kate
Rae Cairns: Gold wory a shout out. I always think of her
Rae Cairns: like a director
Rae Cairns: directing an actor and going like that, but more do
Rae Cairns: another take, but ring more to it like she very
Rae Cairns: much is saying to me, Go harder. Don't be scared
Rae Cairns: about really putting your character through the ringer like just
Rae Cairns: this bit more so. I think
Rae Cairns: the second draught definitely often is where some of that
Rae Cairns: attention really does get elevated, amplified. I tend to be
Rae Cairns: a bit softly soft touch in the
Rae Cairns: draught, I think, where I'm a bit scared to fully
Rae Cairns: put them through the ringer. And I think that's also
Rae Cairns: something that perhaps I have learned from the first and
Rae Cairns: subsequent books is that it's OK to really load up
Rae Cairns: someone up with a lot of stuff in a crime book.
Rae Cairns: You you can keep hitting them until they almost can't
Rae Cairns: take any more. Yeah, that's sort of part of the
Rae Cairns: whole process, and readers are OK to go with you
Rae Cairns: on that, I think,
Rae Cairns: yeah, I think it is. It's little things. It's obviously
Rae Cairns: the way you end chapters and the readability of making
Rae Cairns: sure you. You are giving people enough C crumb that
Rae Cairns: they want to keep reading and enough little moments of doubt.
Rae Cairns: Like I call them. It's It's red herrings, but it's
Rae Cairns: actually not just red herrings. It's also just little little
Rae Cairns: senses of unease about certain characters where you're like, What
Rae Cairns: is
Rae Cairns: your motivation and what are you all about? And I
Rae Cairns: think that thats the same as we do in life. Totally.
Rae Cairns: It's very curious, I think for me and again, this
Rae Cairns: sounds strategic. I'm probably not so consciously thinking of this
Rae Cairns: when I write. But
Rae Cairns: how do I make sure that people are feeling a
Rae Cairns: spark of curiosity when they're reading my books, making sure
Rae Cairns: that there's that constant like, I just don't know about
Rae Cairns: you and I'm not sure about this situation and you're
Rae Cairns: warning that kind of intrigue.
Rae Cairns: It's a bit palpable, really, from the get go and
Rae Cairns: sometimes even doubting characters that people have come to. I
Rae Cairns: think that's always really interesting when you've got a series
Rae Cairns: is that you can play around with you like this
Rae Cairns: person and we all like this person. But actually they've
Rae Cairns: gotten themselves into a bit of a pickle here So
Rae Cairns: now how do we feel about them? So you're having
Rae Cairns: this constant re eval evaluation. And because the Dark qua
Rae Cairns: series is written in the first person, I suppose you're
Rae Cairns: always having it from Gemma's perspective.
Rae Cairns: So it's also that emotional investment that hopefully people have,
Rae Cairns: where if she's sad about someone letting her down or
Rae Cairns: someone that she thought she knew that it seems like
Rae Cairns: perhaps she doesn't. You want that to hit pretty hard emotionally,
Rae Cairns: because you should be in it with her. And we
Rae Cairns: all know what that's like in real life, too,
Rae Cairns: where someone disappoints you. So it's just that, yeah, it's unease, tension.
Rae Cairns: It's sometimes a bit of a shock. And I guess
Rae Cairns: you're balancing all of those things. And I think that
Rae Cairns: if you get that balance broadly right or as right
Rae Cairns: as possible,
Rae Cairns: then hopefully it it results in the tension you're talking about.
Rae Cairns: You also had some short, punchy chapters which help with
Rae Cairns: and is making the chapter shorter, and your sentence structure
Rae Cairns: changes a bit and you get a bit more di. Yeah,
Rae Cairns: I think people do that really Well, I'm actually not
Rae Cairns: sure I'm right at that, because I read sometimes other
Rae Cairns: people's books, and I think, Oh my God, the way
Rae Cairns: that you've just managed little short, punchy chapters I think
Rae Cairns: that some people have a real
Rae Cairns: in that regard. I'm my structure. Stuff's a bit looser.
Rae Cairns: It's not a style. It It's different in every book.
Rae Cairns: But yeah, I guess you're trying to adapt the writing
Rae Cairns: and the energy of the reading experience to match what's
Rae Cairns: happening in the book. So if there's kind of moments
Rae Cairns: that are hard and fast shock, then you don't want
Rae Cairns: meandering long chapter that are explaining things. So I think
Rae Cairns: you are. Yeah, you would. I am trying to adapt
Rae Cairns: to
Rae Cairns: that kind of energy, and I wanna I just wanna
Rae Cairns: touch back on point of view because in The Housemate,
Rae Cairns: which was your stand alone novel, you did third person. OK,
Rae Cairns: you have it from two points of view, and I
Rae Cairns: wanted to talk a bit about the advantages and disadvantages
Rae Cairns: of 1st and 3rd and what you're writing, because they're
Rae Cairns: both all in present tense. But it's the Yeah, 1st
Rae Cairns: and 3rd is the Yeah, I found it really hard.
Rae Cairns: I have to say, Did you search the third person. Yeah,
Rae Cairns: I think because I had written in first, which is
Rae Cairns: so immediate, and it's got inbuilt momentum and energy in it,
Rae Cairns: which I think suits the way I think and write more.
Rae Cairns: Whereas I had to flip that perspective to be a
Rae Cairns: bit more observational and reflective, and I had to change
Rae Cairns: my pace, I think, to make that feel realistic, and
Rae Cairns: I it took me a while to just get used
Rae Cairns: to it. I kept flipping back into first person and
Rae Cairns: then realising that I didn't
Rae Cairns: know how he thought the character in the housemate. I
Rae Cairns: was like, I'm not Gemma anymore. Like it's a different person.
Rae Cairns: She's less impulsive and all those things. So I do
Rae Cairns: think it worked really well for the house mate. I
Rae Cairns: think it was the right
Rae Cairns: decision, but it did take me a while just to
Rae Cairns: get used to it, and I am writing a sequel
Rae Cairns: to the housemaid at the moment, and so back in
Rae Cairns: third person, I say I'm writing it. I actually touched
Rae Cairns: the dreamer, but I should be writing it, and that's
Rae Cairns: in third person as well. And again, I actually feel
Rae Cairns: like sometimes I physically have to go click into a
Rae Cairns: different like gear because you can't take shortcuts like in
Rae Cairns: first person.
Rae Cairns: You just say what that person's thinking and you're seeing
Rae Cairns: the world from their eyes. It's all very clear the
Rae Cairns: perspective for me. There's obviously things that they can't see
Rae Cairns: and they don't know. And that's annoying because you then
Rae Cairns: have to work out. How do they get that information?
Rae Cairns: How does the reader get that information? So there's challenges
Rae Cairns: in first person. There's limitation definitely within first person, whereas
Rae Cairns: in third person you've got that omnipresent sort of
Rae Cairns: ability. So it's a bit easier to reveal information and
Rae Cairns: different things can happen. The person necessarily have to see
Rae Cairns: and all of that type of thing. But yeah, I
Rae Cairns: do find first person, I think, is more my natural style.
Rae Cairns: So I have to work a bit harder to make
Rae Cairns: the person work.
Rae Cairns: OK,
Rae Cairns: you've also explored different settings in your novels. So you've
Rae Cairns: had Country city coastal country again, and obviously it's been
Rae Cairns: a huge thing with crime novels being set in country town.
Rae Cairns: So what are the advantages and disadvantages of setting a
Rae Cairns: novel in the country versus the city?
Rae Cairns: I think with a country town, you can have more
Rae Cairns: coincidences than you can in a city. So because everyone
Rae Cairns: knows of each other, even if they don't know each
Rae Cairns: other and there's a smaller setting in terms of physical location,
Rae Cairns: coincidences are more easily explained and not don't feel as F,
Rae Cairns: whereas in a city setting you can't have people tripping
Rae Cairns: over each other randomly when there's millions of people and
Rae Cairns: like it's it's different. I found particularly going from the
Rae Cairns: Dark Lake to into the night.
Rae Cairns: That whole journey for Gemma was very much going from
Rae Cairns: a town where she knew so much. Everything was so familiar.
Rae Cairns: Whereas when she moved to the city, it was this
Rae Cairns: anonymity that was really important and also a sense of
Rae Cairns: just being quite alone and not knowing anybody. And so
Rae Cairns: I think that you can just play around with different
Rae Cairns: relationships in that way. Yeah, definitely. And OK, so I
Rae Cairns: just want to touch really briefly on Final Act, which
Rae Cairns: was your audio first book. Did you have to write
Rae Cairns: differently for an audio first?
Rae Cairns: I didn't start out as an audio book, so I
Rae Cairns: guess I not. Initially I it was actually the first
Rae Cairns: thing I ever wrote before the Dark Lake. I'd started
Rae Cairns: the idea. Uh, yeah. I started this idea ages ago,
Rae Cairns: got stuck, couldn't get it to work, had about 20,000
Rae Cairns: words sitting there, flipped to the dark lake
Rae Cairns: that obviously was successful and managed to get an agent
Rae Cairns: and pitch it and all those things. And then I
Rae Cairns: was at a writer's event or festival I can't remember.
Rae Cairns: And someone from Audible heard me talking about this manuscript
Rae Cairns: that I'd park and the premise of it
Rae Cairns: contacted me and said, I'm interested in that. Do you
Rae Cairns: think you finish it? And then that's how that happened. Yeah,
Rae Cairns: I had to go back and work out if I
Rae Cairns: could finish it, and I did still struggle with it
Rae Cairns: a little bit. It's a It's quite a tricky story
Rae Cairns: because it's it is still crime fiction, but it doesn't
Rae Cairns: have traditional prot protagonist. There's no detective. There's no journal.
Rae Cairns: There's no lawyer.
Rae Cairns: So there's a surgeon main character, not an investigator, but
Rae Cairns: ends up being a quasi detective. So it's a bit
Rae Cairns: tricky logistically to make that all
Rae Cairns: work. But yeah, it was a really good challenge, like
Rae Cairns: picking up a book that I'd abandoned reenergizing it and
Rae Cairns: making it work and finishing it. I think I was
Rae Cairns: aware of the audio bit when I was writing it,
Rae Cairns: just to the extent of
Rae Cairns: maybe more, just clear out sort of description, like lots
Rae Cairns: of dialogue
Rae Cairns: and just but not in a way that I think
Rae Cairns: I really wrote differently. Yeah, maybe just in the editing process.
Rae Cairns: I was a bit aware of just being really clear
Rae Cairns: with the dialogue and yeah, but I think the process
Rae Cairns: is broadly pretty in LA At least it was for me. OK,
Rae Cairns: that's interesting. And then you you mentioned before that gem
Rae Cairns: is going into a TV series. I think you said
Rae Cairns: yes. How has that been like? That is Obviously a
Rae Cairns: lot of writers dream of seeing their books on the screen.
Rae Cairns: Are you involved in that process? How long has it taken?
Rae Cairns: Just give us a bit of Yeah, I am. I'm
Rae Cairns: very excited because it feels like it's actually going to happen,
Rae Cairns: but it has been, I think, seven years in the process.
Rae Cairns: So I'm also a little bit reserved in that there's
Rae Cairns: still quite a few hoops that it needs to jump
Rae Cairns: through before it actually is in production.
Rae Cairns: But it's certainly feeling very promising at the moment. So
Rae Cairns: there's a A streaming partner has come on board. The
Rae Cairns: production company has always been very committed to finding it
Rae Cairns: at home. There's an actress attached, so it certainly feels
Rae Cairns: like a gathering momentum. But TV is even more fickle
Rae Cairns: than publishing, apparently. Yeah, I don't think we'll realise how
Rae Cairns: long it can take. Like you might get something so
Rae Cairns: long if it stays optioned for
Rae Cairns: ever long. A piece of string is, yeah, yes, there's
Rae Cairns: so much money that needs to be found to fund things.
Rae Cairns: I always joke that when I want a dramatic thing
Rae Cairns: and need to call in ambulances and fire engines, I
Rae Cairns: just ride it, whereas in a TV, show it that
Rae Cairns: $400,000 or something. So it's a different creative process. But yeah,
Rae Cairns: I am
Rae Cairns: quite involved. They're They've been amazing, wanting to make sure
Rae Cairns: that I feel good about the way that they're looking
Rae Cairns: to interpret it. So I'm not a producer. I'm not
Rae Cairns: going to be writing it. There's a lead writer that's
Rae Cairns: been brought onto the project and I'm very happy with that.
Rae Cairns: But yeah, I'm involved, I don't know, almost like a
Rae Cairns: consulting kind of role. So I will be in the
Rae Cairns: writer's room for some of it. And then I will
Rae Cairns: certainly review like the first episode that they write and
Rae Cairns: just stay across the project broadly, which is perfect for me.
Rae Cairns: I don't
Rae Cairns: wants to be hugely involved. I'm really happy for them
Rae Cairns: to take it in whatever direction they think needs to
Rae Cairns: work for TV. I know it's a different sort of format,
Rae Cairns: but it's really nice to be asked my opinion and
Rae Cairns: just to be involved in that sort of the rural way.
Rae Cairns: So yeah, like fingers crossed, it makes it all the
Rae Cairns: way through. It's exciting. It's so exciting. OK, I've only
Rae Cairns: got a couple little question. What's the best of writing
Rae Cairns: life for you?
Rae Cairns: What's the best part? Yeah,
Rae Cairns: I think like I said earlier, that vibe that finishing
Rae Cairns: a project and holding it, I guess, is always just
Rae Cairns: an incredibly
Rae Cairns: rewarding moment. And I do. I think I've become quite
Rae Cairns: addicted to that
Rae Cairns: sort of feeling because otherwise I just don't think I
Rae Cairns: would keep doing. It's just I think it is just yeah,
Rae Cairns: so rare to have something that you can hold and
Rae Cairns: say I think that you've kind of done and I
Rae Cairns: really think that for me important. But there's so many
Rae Cairns: things about it that are amazing, like just the privilege
Rae Cairns: of getting to create
Rae Cairns: world and character of the story. It is special, and
Rae Cairns: I'm really glad that I want to do that and
Rae Cairns: that I get to do that. And I do sometimes
Rae Cairns: look at other people and think, Oh, you'll never have
Rae Cairns: that and I they don't want it So they're not
Rae Cairns: happy about it, But I'm like, Oh, I really enjoy
Rae Cairns: that And so I'm glad that I've had that experience
Rae Cairns: and then just other writers, I think talking to other
Rae Cairns: people about their ideas and their stories, and I just
Rae Cairns: I already work in an industry that's very much around
Rae Cairns: ideas and communication, and
Rae Cairns: I just never cease to amaze me just how many
Rae Cairns: ideas there are out there and just the different ways
Rae Cairns: in to solving different problems. And it's just so reassuring
Rae Cairns: that there is just always going to be art for
Rae Cairns: evermore because people just always have ideas and I really
Rae Cairns: love being in industries that are adjacent to that. That
Rae Cairns: kind of creativity. And then, yeah, I think obviously meeting
Rae Cairns: readers and having them
Rae Cairns: tell you what they thought of your book is a
Rae Cairns: kind of privilege. And you used to I don't know
Rae Cairns: if this is the thing for you, Ray, but you've
Rae Cairns: I'm very aware that I've written books and that they're
Rae Cairns: out in the world and they're being read, But you
Rae Cairns: don't really think about it very much. Someone comes up
Rae Cairns: to you and says, I've read your book and I
Rae Cairns: think it's even more highlighted when it's a book that
Rae Cairns: you wrote five years ago and there
Rae Cairns: telling you that I read it. I don't know last
Rae Cairns: week and you, you're like, Oh, yeah, forget people are
Rae Cairns: still reading those books and that's just it's amazing. And
Rae Cairns: it's very strange. Um, yeah, I really appreciate that anyone's
Rae Cairns: read any of my books, but having them tell you
Rae Cairns: what they thought of it, how they interpret it, what
Rae Cairns: they liked, what they didn't like, like it's just I
Rae Cairns: love it. I don't mind if they don't like it.
Rae Cairns: It's still great to have that dialogue and that kind
Rae Cairns: of interaction. So, yeah, there's lots of things I like
Rae Cairns: about it.
Rae Cairns: That's great. We will almost finish there. I just have
Rae Cairns: to ask Japan's favourite question for writers. What is at
Rae Cairns: the heart of your writing and what ties your six
Rae Cairns: novels together? What do you think?
Rae Cairns: I think ethical dilemmas probably is the theme that when
Rae Cairns: you really boil it all down it
Rae Cairns: good people making good or bad choices and bad people
Rae Cairns: making good or bad choices. And they happen to be
Rae Cairns: in a world of voicing and journalism and law and
Rae Cairns: things like that. But
Rae Cairns: they're still just people, and I think that's like the
Rae Cairns: characters around. That world is also what I'm fascinated by. So, yeah,
Rae Cairns: ethical quandaries and what makes people tick, I think, is
Rae Cairns: essentially what I'm really always trying to unpack and understand.
Rae Cairns: Yeah, absolutely. I so enjoyed talking to you. Thank you
Rae Cairns: so much for sharing all your tips and about various
Rae Cairns: areas of writing. It was really interesting. A huge congratulations
Rae Cairns: on body of lies and I can't wait to hear
Rae Cairns: Read the sequel to the housemate.
Rae Cairns: Oh, I need to finish it first, obviously. So I
Rae Cairns: have to wait for a little while, but no, hopefully
Rae Cairns: that will work its way into a book at some
Rae Cairns: point as well. But I thank you. I've really enjoyed
Rae Cairns: talking to you as well. Thank you.
Pamela Cook: Thanks for listening to rights for women. I hope you've
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Pamela Cook: word you write your one word closer to typing Nan