Neroli Brennan: This is Seeds for Success, a show where we have
Neroli Brennan: a good yarn about Ag life with producers who are
Neroli Brennan: having a go. On the show, you'll hear from farmers
Neroli Brennan: in New South Wales who are out there battling the elements,
Neroli Brennan: making tough calls, and getting the job done. You'll get a
Neroli Brennan: laugh out of some of their stories and also pick
Neroli Brennan: up some know- how along the way. I'm your host,
Neroli Brennan: Neroli Brennan. Today, we are chatting with Paul Sinderberry . Paul, along
Neroli Brennan: with his wife and daughter, farm at Karawatha, 50 kilometers
Neroli Brennan: north of Condobolin. They run a traditional mixed farm with wheat, canola,
Neroli Brennan: and pulse cropping, as well as running commercial and stud
Neroli Brennan: Angus cattle. In this episode, you'll hear how their stud
Neroli Brennan: cattle operation, Moogenilla Angus, was part of the impetus behind
Neroli Brennan: their investigation and trialing of hard- seeded legumes within their
Neroli Brennan: pasture system. The low bloating nature of some hard- seeded
Neroli Brennan: pasture legumes, such as Biserrula and serradella, was very attractive to
Neroli Brennan: Paul's operation after he lost expensive stud animals on bloating,
Neroli Brennan: legume pastures like lucerne and clover. Paul also shares with
Neroli Brennan: us some useful tips if considering growing hard- seeded legumes
Neroli Brennan: on your own farm. Local land services mixed farming officer,
Neroli Brennan: Rohan Leach, join Paul on the lounge at Karawatha over
Neroli Brennan: a cuppa and a toasted sandwich to bring you this
Neroli Brennan: great chat.
Rohan Leach: Paul, welcome to the Seeds for Success podcast.
Paul Sinderberry: Thanks, Rowan. We've got a beautiful day here and thanks
Paul Sinderberry: for coming out.
Rohan Leach: Mate, do you mind telling the listeners where we are
Rohan Leach: and what you do?
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah. Karawatha, we're about 50Ks north of Condobolin, Central New South Wales. We're
Paul Sinderberry: a mix farm, cropping and cattle and breed bulls. We've
Paul Sinderberry: got two properties. Yeah, the home block is about six
Paul Sinderberry: and a half thousand hectares.
Rohan Leach: And that's Karawatha?
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah. Karawatha and then about 60Ks northwest near Babinda, got another block there. It's about four and a
Paul Sinderberry: half thousand hectares. And yeah, we're running cattle and cropping out there
Paul Sinderberry: to tidy the place up too.
Rohan Leach: Yep. What are some of your soil types here?
Paul Sinderberry: Typical red soils, sandy clay loams. Yeah, low phosphorus, low
Paul Sinderberry: nitrogen and yeah, typically 4. 8 to about 5.5 pH.
Rohan Leach: Fairly acid, like probably the majority of the state, west of the hill.
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah. As we're finding, getting more acid all the time.
Paul Sinderberry: We've got a liming program going as well when it rains.
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah, our rainfall, we're about 425 mills average. Now we
Paul Sinderberry: can grow good crops and yeah, grow good pastures as well when it rains.
Rohan Leach: Do you mind just telling me a bit about your
Rohan Leach: cropping program? What crops do you grow?
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah, so I mean the basis is wheat, but yeah,
Paul Sinderberry: wheat, canola, field peas, a bit of barley, sometimes chickpeas.
Paul Sinderberry: This year, we're got about four and a half thousand hectares
Paul Sinderberry: in. We're trying to tidy up some country at the
Paul Sinderberry: moment as well. But yeah, about four and a half
Paul Sinderberry: thousand hectares of crop, and about 700 breeders.
Rohan Leach: That sounds like a big job, mate. What's your business
Rohan Leach: structure and people involved in the business?
Paul Sinderberry: Sarah and I, we've over the years, developed a bit
Paul Sinderberry: of a system I suppose. She's in charge of the
Paul Sinderberry: cattle, I'm in charge of the cropping. Yeah. We can
Paul Sinderberry: discuss what happens in between with the pastures and that
Paul Sinderberry: sort of thing. We've got two full- time employees and
Paul Sinderberry: my daughter's involved as well. She's partnered with one of the
Paul Sinderberry: employees, Brett, and they live on the block out near Babinda.
Rohan Leach: Sarah looks after the cattle and you look after the
Rohan Leach: cropping. You come together When it comes for the pasture
Rohan Leach: stuff though, I think.
Paul Sinderberry: Oh yeah, no, as I say, we got to always try and maximize your returns,
Paul Sinderberry: maximize the efficiency. Yeah, so we grow grazing crops with
Paul Sinderberry: the cattle. Yeah, when you're trying to run two enterprises,
Paul Sinderberry: you've got to make compromises. Yeah. Right at the moment,
Paul Sinderberry: we're finding Illabo wheat's going really well on the grazing side
Paul Sinderberry: of things. And that's yeah, pretty much how I got into the Biserrula
Paul Sinderberry: and that. We under- sew all of our crops when
Paul Sinderberry: they go out traditionally with lucerne and rose clover in
Paul Sinderberry: particular. And they'll be out for five to seven years
Paul Sinderberry: until the lucerne thins out and then yeah, come back
Paul Sinderberry: into the croppy again. Yeah, along the way, you got to
Paul Sinderberry: make compromises, but that's generally how it works.
Rohan Leach: I've just noticed that you said the Biserrula there, so I'll
Rohan Leach: seize on that. That's a great segue into my next
Rohan Leach: topic. You are tied up with the Central West farming
Rohan Leach: Systems producer demonstration site this year. Do you mind sort
Rohan Leach: of explaining what your involvement is there?
Paul Sinderberry: I guess, yeah, for a while I'd been on the hunt for some pasture
Paul Sinderberry: other than lucerne. Basically, we run Angus cattle breed bulls,
Paul Sinderberry: we can grow really good pastures. And occasionally, the pastures
Paul Sinderberry: are too hot and now we have lots of issues
Paul Sinderberry: with bloat. We've got ways of managing that with bloat
Paul Sinderberry: oil and hay and that sort of thing. But there's just times, anyway,
Paul Sinderberry: it's a compromise. I've been on hunt for a while
Paul Sinderberry: to try to find something different. And I came across Biserrula and
Paul Sinderberry: serradella. Did some research. Talked to some good people, particularly
Paul Sinderberry: Dr. Belinda Hackney, who helped me a lot. And yeah,
Paul Sinderberry: we ended up sewing some trial sites here and out
Paul Sinderberry: of that by Biserrula and serradella. And probably particularly the Biserrula have done
Paul Sinderberry: really, really well. Then non- bloating, so of it's going
Paul Sinderberry: really well through that. Then Central West Farming Systems came
Paul Sinderberry: on and MLA, gave us a hand and supplied us with
Paul Sinderberry: some seed and stuff like that. And now we're working
Paul Sinderberry: at integrating those Biserrula pastures with the cropping system and
Paul Sinderberry: possibly replacing the pulses with Biserrula. That's where, yeah, MLA's showing
Paul Sinderberry: an interest. Yeah.
Rohan Leach: Yeah, cool. Because we've gone for a little drive around
Rohan Leach: this morning and I noticed that you had a dam
Rohan Leach: fenced off and you had bloat troughs and that sort
Rohan Leach: of stuff in a paddock of lucerne. You were doing all
Rohan Leach: the right things I guess, and with hay and whatever,
Rohan Leach: but you just still found that risk of bloat just
Rohan Leach: too high with the lucerne?
Paul Sinderberry: It's just that unknowing. I mean, yeah, you can go
Paul Sinderberry: 90% of the time, you're absolutely fine. And then the
Paul Sinderberry: one morning that you go out and it's not fine, that
Paul Sinderberry: hurts. And particularly even from an animal welfare point of
Paul Sinderberry: view, but an economic point of view now with the price
Paul Sinderberry: of cattle and that, it really hurts. Yeah, we're just always
Paul Sinderberry: looking for alternatives.
Rohan Leach: Yeah. Have you got any horror stories about bloat?
Paul Sinderberry: We haven't really. The odd one, certainly no large numbers,
Paul Sinderberry: which has been good. But financially we've lost a couple
Paul Sinderberry: of very valuable animals. Yeah, that hurts a lot,
Rohan Leach: It would do, particularly at this time in the cycle
Rohan Leach: of Angus prices. They've seen some pretty crazy prices. And
Rohan Leach: you guys hear yourself at moving a lot of Angus.
Rohan Leach: Yeah. You guys had been doing all right as well.
Rohan Leach: Can you tell me when did you first sow your first
Rohan Leach: crop of these hard- seeded legumes Biserrula and serradella and a few others
Rohan Leach: was it?
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah, 2017. I went to a couple of presentations days
Paul Sinderberry: where yeah, Linda Hackney was speaking. Yeah, it was through discussions with her. She
Paul Sinderberry: suggested that we try, instead of just sewing one or
Paul Sinderberry: two things, whatever, try a paddock, single species strips and
Paul Sinderberry: just see what performed. Yeah. In 1785 hectare paddock and
Paul Sinderberry: we sewed I think seven different species just in single
Paul Sinderberry: lines. Tried to work it so it was the sewing
Paul Sinderberry: matched up with boom spray wits if we needed to
Paul Sinderberry: spray it. And we had arrowleaf clover and Biserrula and bladder clover,
Paul Sinderberry: gland, two types of serradella, rose clover. And so, that was
Paul Sinderberry: really interesting because yeah, we sewed them, they all grew.
Paul Sinderberry: People remember 2017 in this area, it started well off
Paul Sinderberry: the back of '16.
Rohan Leach: We had a good autumn that year, didn't we?
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah, we had a pretty good autumn. Everything got off
Paul Sinderberry: to a good start. And then basically, just about the
Paul Sinderberry: middle of the year it just stopped raining. And then we had
Paul Sinderberry: a heap of frosts, a lot of crop got frosted.
Paul Sinderberry: It was pretty hard on the pastures. But straight up
Paul Sinderberry: from that I was really impressed with the growth and
Paul Sinderberry: the length of season that the Biserrula and serradella in particular
Paul Sinderberry: had. Arrow leaf clover looked good at the time. Rose
Paul Sinderberry: clover did what it always does. It's good ground cover
Paul Sinderberry: but then cut out really quickly. On the back of
Paul Sinderberry: that, I actually bought another ton of serradella and sewed
Paul Sinderberry: that into a different paddock. Unfortunately, that didn't go so well. Basically didn't rain. I
Paul Sinderberry: think we must have had just enough small rains that
Paul Sinderberry: it germinated, a bit of a downer. But then late
Paul Sinderberry: in '18 we had an inch of rain, October or
Paul Sinderberry: something. And all of a sudden the Biserrula I'd say
Paul Sinderberry: in the previous year just bounced back and took off.
Paul Sinderberry: And I was actually able to graze that paddock a
Paul Sinderberry: bit, just pretty much on that. I thought that was
Paul Sinderberry: pretty amazing. Then we went through '19. And '19 just got worse.
Paul Sinderberry: Pretty much didn't see anything in '19. And so, by
Paul Sinderberry: the end of that thinking, " Oh, well, okay. This is all that was
Paul Sinderberry: good fun, but nothing's going to come of it."
Rohan Leach: Fun while it lasted. Yeah.
Paul Sinderberry: Fun while it lasted. That paddock we sewed oats into
Paul Sinderberry: in '20 when it started raining, early '20. And we sewed
Paul Sinderberry: oats into... And then even as I'm sewing the oats,
Paul Sinderberry: I was just looking on the ground and going, " Wow,
Paul Sinderberry: what's all that stuff coming up?" And it was in
Paul Sinderberry: particular the Biserrula. It just bounced back. It was amazing. Yeah, went up
Paul Sinderberry: with a fantastic crop of oats that we grazed really
Paul Sinderberry: heavily and in particular that was the Biserrula and the yellow Santorini
Paul Sinderberry: serradella just worked for us. And it was now different places,
Paul Sinderberry: different things are going to work for different people in
Paul Sinderberry: different soils and whatever. But on our place, that's just
Paul Sinderberry: what's really standing out. When the other ones pretty much disappeared
Paul Sinderberry: and you'll see bits and pieces of them. But those
Paul Sinderberry: two in particular just really stood out.
Rohan Leach: Yeah. That's advice from Belinda of just sow a few
Rohan Leach: different types in strips really worked out for you.
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah. Absolutely. Because yeah, I'm sure I hear lots of
Paul Sinderberry: stories of arrowleaf clover working really well for other people
Paul Sinderberry: in different places. And those other ones, they're obviously all
Paul Sinderberry: out there for a reason, but just in our environment
Paul Sinderberry: it just seems that this is what works for us.
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah. And so I've gone on with that. Yeah, we've got
Paul Sinderberry: a few paddocks of straight Biserrula. In and I'm now
Paul Sinderberry: sewing Biserrula with lucerne. Wherever we under- sew lucerne I'm
Paul Sinderberry: sewing Biserrula to hopefully, we'll still need to provide that
Paul Sinderberry: gap filler because that's loosened things out. Instead of having
Paul Sinderberry: weeds grow, it's good if we have something beneficial that
Paul Sinderberry: grows. And also, hopefully the Biserrula then tames down the
Paul Sinderberry: bloat risk of the lucerne.
Rohan Leach: Yep. The Biserrula has got something called condensed tannins in it.
Rohan Leach: That while it makes it a little bit not as
Rohan Leach: tasty to eat, not as palatable maybe as something like
Rohan Leach: a sub- clover, yeah, that helps with the bloat.
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah. And I've had other people say, " Oh, now the Biserrula,
Paul Sinderberry: it's not palatable or something." But I don't know from what
Paul Sinderberry: I've seen, our cattle love it. There's places where they've
Paul Sinderberry: got options, tree lines and there's plenty of grass around
Paul Sinderberry: at the moment and stuff. And they still seem to
Paul Sinderberry: hammer the Biserrula and we've seen, won't say none, but
Paul Sinderberry: very, very little signs of bloat with it.
Rohan Leach: We've been driving around this morning and walked through some probably-
Rohan Leach: knee high paddocks of Biserrula. it looks pretty magic here
Rohan Leach: at this time of year. What are you planning to do
Rohan Leach: with that stuff you've locked up?
Paul Sinderberry: We've been harvesting. Paddock I sewed in 2020, we harvested
Paul Sinderberry: it now the last two years, got seed off. And then yeah, so
Paul Sinderberry: I'm now using that to spread everywhere else. That's a
Paul Sinderberry: really good economic gain and cost reduction. To be able
Paul Sinderberry: to graze the paddocks during the year, then lock them up
Paul Sinderberry: and get seed. And so that's makes it look pretty
Paul Sinderberry: good for a pulse replacement.
Rohan Leach: Yep. And so how have they been yielding?
Paul Sinderberry: Probably on average, about 100 kgs a hectare. I think that's
Paul Sinderberry: probably what I'm getting off. Yeah.
Rohan Leach: Yep. And are you using all of that seed? Are you
Rohan Leach: selling any surplus seed?
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah, I've been selling, yeah, some seed just locally pretty much.
Paul Sinderberry: I was spreading it around the west of the state.
Paul Sinderberry: But yeah, just friends and other people, anyone who's inquiring.
Paul Sinderberry: But no, we've spread a fair bit of seed around
Paul Sinderberry: the place. Yeah.
Rohan Leach: Is it difficult to harvest?
Paul Sinderberry: Yes and no. It's difficult to get it in the header
Paul Sinderberry: or in the box I should say. No, it's been
Paul Sinderberry: pretty easy. I have to thank Mike O'Hare down at
Paul Sinderberry: Beckham for giving me some pointers. No, we've just been
Paul Sinderberry: going in in January, February hitting, going up with the hay
Paul Sinderberry: rake, just raking it up into windrows. And then using pickup
Paul Sinderberry: front, putting it into the header. That bit's all easy.
Paul Sinderberry: The hardest part then is trying to get the seed out of the pod.
Paul Sinderberry: And it's got a really thick leathery pod that doesn't really want
Paul Sinderberry: to split open. Yeah, I mean that 100 kilos a hectare I've been
Paul Sinderberry: getting, I reckon that it would've been three or 400 kilos in the paddock, of
Paul Sinderberry: which I've just spread back around again. But yeah, we get to take a bit of it.
Rohan Leach: Yeah. Probably not the worst thing for the sustainability of
Rohan Leach: the system to leave a bit behind. But yeah, I
Rohan Leach: guess you're probably more thinking a bit short term by
Rohan Leach: just getting as much as you can year to year.
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah. Oh yeah, no, it's an area we definitely want to improve. We're going
Paul Sinderberry: to keep trying some different things. Yeah, it'd be really
Paul Sinderberry: nice if we can get some more of that seed,
Paul Sinderberry: for sure.
Rohan Leach: And you also said that you've just bought yourself a
Rohan Leach: new seed cleaner. Do you mind talking about that?
Paul Sinderberry: No, it's pretty simple. You're going to put me on
Paul Sinderberry: the spot because I've forgotten the name of it. It's
Paul Sinderberry: just an air one. And just, yeah, it's got a fan, the seed
Paul Sinderberry: flow drops through the fan. And it actually does a really good job of
Paul Sinderberry: sizing seed. Because all the lighter stuff blows out the
Paul Sinderberry: back and the heavier stuff drops straight away. Even with
Paul Sinderberry: wheat and pulses and stuff like that, you get your
Paul Sinderberry: heavy seed all up the front and all the light
Paul Sinderberry: stuff gets blown out. It's been quite beneficial just as a help
Paul Sinderberry: as a pre- cleaner and stuff. I can do all
Paul Sinderberry: my wheat seeding and that with it.
Rohan Leach: Yeah, so what are your plans going forward to get
Rohan Leach: your harvest a bit better? Maybe any tips on maybe
Rohan Leach: desiccation or windrowing or anything like that?
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah. Hopefully, I'm going to try that this year is we're going to try
Paul Sinderberry: and desiccate as soon as the crop's 90% ripe or
Paul Sinderberry: something, we'll try and desiccate. And I believe maybe at
Paul Sinderberry: that stage that the pods might be more brittle, got
Paul Sinderberry: a stripper front coming. And I keep hearing stories where
Paul Sinderberry: everyone says how wonderful stripper fronts are for picking up
Paul Sinderberry: down crops. This one looks pretty much like a down
Paul Sinderberry: crop to me. I'm hoping, yeah, if we run it
Paul Sinderberry: that we might be able to help pluck the seeds off and these
Paul Sinderberry: pods off. And if they're brittle enough, shatter and then
Paul Sinderberry: we'll be able to get them in the box. Yeah.
Rohan Leach: Yeah. You've got experience with chickpeas and field peas in
Rohan Leach: the past. How does this crop compare to them?
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah, well, I suppose it will just be, just like
Paul Sinderberry: peas, when it matures, it all just falls down. It's all knee-
Paul Sinderberry: high plus at the moment, but as it matures that'll
Paul Sinderberry: go back down to our ankles. Yeah, pretty similar from
Paul Sinderberry: that front. But then, yeah, with this pod situation, I
Paul Sinderberry: mean it's not like you're worrying about seed cracking or
Paul Sinderberry: anything like that. Not even really worried about shatter out the front
Paul Sinderberry: either. It's more about actually trying to get the pods
Paul Sinderberry: to break open. We're mucking out, doing some things, mucking
Paul Sinderberry: around with concaves and that. Trying to close concaves up or put a
Paul Sinderberry: wire mesh in there. You can try some stuff like that.
Rohan Leach: Mate, it sounds like I need to come out here
Rohan Leach: in another six months and talk to you after harvest.
Rohan Leach: It sounds like a constant learning experience with something new
Rohan Leach: and exciting like this.
Paul Sinderberry: It is a big learning experience, which is really enjoyable.
Paul Sinderberry: I mean that's a fantastic thing about farming is just
Paul Sinderberry: we're all learning all the time and try new things,
Paul Sinderberry: but I am a bit excited about this crop. I
Paul Sinderberry: think it's showing a lot of potential to then become
Paul Sinderberry: part of our cropping system. And the fact that you've
Paul Sinderberry: only got to sell it once and once you've got
Paul Sinderberry: it, it's there. I think going forward, that's going to
Paul Sinderberry: be really good.
Rohan Leach: Yeah, it's interesting that you call it a crop and
Rohan Leach: you talk about it as if it's a crop. We've
Rohan Leach: gone straight into the detail there. But maybe we'll step
Rohan Leach: back and have a look at a bit of the
Rohan Leach: system of this Biserrula and hard- seeded legume. Just for the
Rohan Leach: listeners, these hard- seeded legumes are much more persistent in
Rohan Leach: the soil with a hard seed. And they can basically regenerate even
Rohan Leach: after a cropping phase. Is that what you've seen in
Rohan Leach: your experience, Paul?
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah, and the '17 to '20 was a typical example
Paul Sinderberry: that we sewed a crop in '17. I wouldn't have even said we
Paul Sinderberry: had a great seed set then, but it did have
Paul Sinderberry: a seed set. And then we've had complete wipe out
Paul Sinderberry: in '18 and '19 with no rain. And then for the crop
Paul Sinderberry: to come back the way it did, it's obviously got a lot of hard seed. And so,
Paul Sinderberry: there's no reason it won't continue in our cropping system.
Paul Sinderberry: Even then this year, we sewed one paddock. Last year,
Paul Sinderberry: in '21, we sewed a 240 hectare paddock just straight
Paul Sinderberry: Biserrula. It grew pretty well. We probably sewed a little
Paul Sinderberry: bit late. It definitely likes an early sewing once it
Paul Sinderberry: starts, cools down.
Rohan Leach: What time of year is an early sewing for you?
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah, I think we want to be late March, early
Paul Sinderberry: April. Which is good in that we're getting it in before
Paul Sinderberry: the rest of the crop so it's not interfering. It's
Paul Sinderberry: only about the same time as we sewing our grazing
Paul Sinderberry: cereals. The growth out of it then, when it gets
Paul Sinderberry: a start, it's so far ahead of then something that
Paul Sinderberry: you so in late May after everything else. That crop
Paul Sinderberry: grew well last year. We grazed it. We had 100
Paul Sinderberry: young bulls on it for a couple of months and they
Paul Sinderberry: didn't even touch it really. And then it all set seed.
Paul Sinderberry: Then yeah, this year I came in and said, " Okay, the plan is to sew wheat
Paul Sinderberry: in late April." As I'm going into the paddock with
Paul Sinderberry: a boom spray to take everything out or sow the
Paul Sinderberry: wheat, it was just a carpet by Biserrula. It's pretty
Paul Sinderberry: hard to keep going.
Rohan Leach: It's a bit of a sickening feeling when you think
Rohan Leach: this is just going to be some magic feed in
Rohan Leach: a couple of weeks. But I guess it's done its
Rohan Leach: job already. It's built up all that nitrogen. The one
Rohan Leach: thing with these is that the broadleaf weed options, probably
Rohan Leach: weed control options aren't that great. Yeah, I think putting
Rohan Leach: it into a wheat's a great option.
Paul Sinderberry: That's the downside. There's really very little in the way of broadleaf weed
Paul Sinderberry: control options. Yeah, I think it's almost a case of,
Paul Sinderberry: I mean you do the best you can to get
Paul Sinderberry: as clean a paddock as you can before you sew it.
Paul Sinderberry: And then probably pretty much got to close your eyes that
Paul Sinderberry: first year to other weeds. But then come back in
Paul Sinderberry: with a cereal the following year and then take all those
Paul Sinderberry: weeds back out again and try to avoid any use of the SUs
Paul Sinderberry: of that. Because like any of those medics and clovers
Paul Sinderberry: and all that sort of stuff, but it's not going to like that, but if I can avoid using them,
Paul Sinderberry: I think we're going to have a good fit in
Paul Sinderberry: our cropping system.
Rohan Leach: Yeah. This year being particularly wet, have you started to
Rohan Leach: notice that your nitrogen needs weren't as high in those paddocks that
Rohan Leach: you had these hard- seeded legumes?
Paul Sinderberry: To be honest, I haven't this year. I mean we've
Paul Sinderberry: only, that's the first paddock that we've really done. And
Paul Sinderberry: I think, well, there was a lot of things went against
Paul Sinderberry: that paddock this year. We did end up, actually, I had some
Paul Sinderberry: leftover urea I was putting on some other paddocks. I
Paul Sinderberry: did put 55 kilos of urea across that paddock. Yeah,
Paul Sinderberry: we haven't seen a great benefit yet. And I think last
Paul Sinderberry: year, I think the amount of fleabane and stuff we
Paul Sinderberry: had last year, I mean last year was incredibly wet
Paul Sinderberry: over the winter. And we sewed it too late and
Paul Sinderberry: all that. There was a few things that weren't right
Paul Sinderberry: and I think the weeds got away a bit. I think they probably would've
Paul Sinderberry: sucked out a lot of the nitrogen benefit from last
Paul Sinderberry: year. Yeah, we got still learning, still got to do a better job at that side of it. Yeah.
Rohan Leach: Yeah. Probably just one of my last questions on this
Rohan Leach: topic. I know Belinda advises the dry sewing of the un-
Rohan Leach: scarified seed. Have you thought about that or considered that?
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Because once again, the real benefit
Paul Sinderberry: of that is going to be that early germination and
Paul Sinderberry: it gets going faster. The inoculation is an issue. Or
Paul Sinderberry: just not an issue but you have to use ALOSCA, the clay-
Paul Sinderberry: based inoculant.
Rohan Leach: And which comes in a granule.
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah, it comes in like a granule. And it can
Paul Sinderberry: be mixed with fertilizer. I haven't tried that yet. It's
Paul Sinderberry: definitely something I'll think about. People are talking about even
Paul Sinderberry: if you're sewing digit grass October or November or something
Paul Sinderberry: in the spring, maybe your hard- seeded legumes could be
Paul Sinderberry: so with ALOSCA at that time. And they'll probably, they
Paul Sinderberry: should just sit over the summer and wait and then
Paul Sinderberry: come up in the autumn. And things like that, there's
Paul Sinderberry: yeah, we still are working at learning how to do
Paul Sinderberry: that stuff better. And once again, your weed control paddock's
Paul Sinderberry: going to have to be pretty clean because you lose
Paul Sinderberry: any ability to take out any weeds in that situation.
Paul Sinderberry: But if you've got your paddocks right, there's certainly I think
Paul Sinderberry: a place for it. And all the evidence is that, oh, the
Paul Sinderberry: plants grow so much better, you'll get so much more
Paul Sinderberry: production that first year.
Rohan Leach: You just mentioned that you're growing it with premier digit.
Rohan Leach: Is that those two are providing the synergies of the
Rohan Leach: legume in the winter and the grass in the summer?
Rohan Leach: Are you seeing some good benefits there?
Paul Sinderberry: Yep. That's the plan and that, yeah, that's going well.
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah, once again, I'm selected paddocks where I don't really
Paul Sinderberry: want to be cropping. We're using that once again as
Paul Sinderberry: a bloat offset at times of the year and conditions
Paul Sinderberry: where we think bloats a risk. It's nice to have some digit
Paul Sinderberry: paddocks that we can put the cattle on instead. We've
Paul Sinderberry: actually got all our heap of carving heifers on a
Paul Sinderberry: paddock at the moment. As they calve, we've been walking
Paul Sinderberry: them onto that. And so yeah, the digits pretty much
Paul Sinderberry: dormant at the moment, but the Biserrula is growing really well. And yeah, that's
Paul Sinderberry: later in the season the Biserrula is shut down and the
Paul Sinderberry: digit will take off. Yeah, hopefully we're going to get nice
Paul Sinderberry: synergy there. That's right.
Rohan Leach: Yeah. And hopefully it's fixed a heap of nitrogen and
Rohan Leach: that premier digit really jumps away. When we were driving
Rohan Leach: around before, we're talking about how good a season it's
Rohan Leach: been for cattle and you are maybe moving away from cropping
Rohan Leach: a little bit this year. How have you come to
Rohan Leach: that decision?
Paul Sinderberry: Coming from the economic side of it, I've always done the gross
Paul Sinderberry: margins. And the cropping, there's a higher gross margin on
Paul Sinderberry: average than livestock up until recently. And so therefore, we've
Paul Sinderberry: tried to concentrate on putting our best country into crop.
Paul Sinderberry: And then, the rest of the country in and out
Paul Sinderberry: of crop or straight cattle, whatever. We've split the farm
Paul Sinderberry: up and we've got areas of continuous crop, we've got
Paul Sinderberry: paddocks that have been 15 years continuous crop now. Some are coming out
Paul Sinderberry: of crop and then some are just native pastures. But
Paul Sinderberry: I think with the change in livestock values over the
Paul Sinderberry: last few years, that dynamic's really changed. When I look
Paul Sinderberry: at our gross margins now and I go, well, we
Paul Sinderberry: can make just as much money out of cattle as
Paul Sinderberry: we can from cropping with a quarter of the risk. And
Paul Sinderberry: particularly the way input prices are at the moment, that's
Paul Sinderberry: really highlighted that even further. But our risk, particularly out
Paul Sinderberry: here where it's pretty... We are marginal cropping country. We've
Paul Sinderberry: just had on our third good year now. But we
Paul Sinderberry: can still look, go back, look at 20 years of
Paul Sinderberry: yields and we're only at about 1. 6 tons to
Paul Sinderberry: the hectare, the old eight bags or something. Our average is still only
Paul Sinderberry: around that. I couldn't imagine growing an eight bag crop,
Paul Sinderberry: amount we've spent on inputs. This is, once again, if
Paul Sinderberry: we get that Biserrula in, sow it, it's established, come Autumn
Paul Sinderberry: next year, if all our sub- soil moisture's disappeared and
Paul Sinderberry: things are looking dodgy and the forecasts aren't good, then
Paul Sinderberry: maybe some of our lesser paddocks we could just say, "
Paul Sinderberry: Okay, let's just leave them out and just have it
Paul Sinderberry: as a grazing paddock for the year." If all goes well,
Paul Sinderberry: we might end up harvesting some seed, whatever. But the
Paul Sinderberry: risk is so much reduced against a crop.
Rohan Leach: It just really makes that system really flexible.
Paul Sinderberry: That's it. I think it's again, going to give us a lot
Paul Sinderberry: more flexibility. And because you've already sown it, it's there,
Paul Sinderberry: it's waiting to go. It's just to choose whether you
Paul Sinderberry: spray it out and sow a crop or whether you
Paul Sinderberry: leave it and graze it.
Rohan Leach: Beauty. That sounds, oh, this farming business sounds pretty easy, Paul.
Paul Sinderberry: Well, I might make it easy.
Rohan Leach: Mate, we've talked a lot about the benefits. Have you noticed any
Rohan Leach: downsides to the serradella or the Biserrula? I know some
Rohan Leach: people have seen photo sensitivity in some stock, particularly sheep.
Paul Sinderberry: No, we haven't seen anything. We're running black cattle, so
Paul Sinderberry: apparently that pretty much cancels that out.
Rohan Leach: Oh great. Yeah, no, I didn't know that. Yeah.
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah, yeah. I think cattle in particular are less sensitive
Paul Sinderberry: than sheep. And running black cattle means there's no problem
Paul Sinderberry: whatsoever. But even talking to people about with the sheep,
Paul Sinderberry: the only time that they really have a problem is
Paul Sinderberry: if you've got a very pure stand and there's nothing
Paul Sinderberry: else to eat. And they're on it for long enough that it
Paul Sinderberry: might become a problem. Once again, just through management you
Paul Sinderberry: can move them on and off supply hay, supply other
Paul Sinderberry: things. There's ways around it. If you are a total
Paul Sinderberry: sheep operation, maybe you don't want to put Biserrula over
Paul Sinderberry: the whole property. It's a bit like me not wanting
Paul Sinderberry: to put lucerne over the whole property. You need to
Paul Sinderberry: have options.
Rohan Leach: Yep. Mate, this has been a very technical episode and
Rohan Leach: I've loved that. But for my final question, I like
Rohan Leach: to go a bit broader and ask my guests, what do
Rohan Leach: you think is the big issue in Australian ag at
Rohan Leach: the moment?
Paul Sinderberry: Big one and a dangerous one, it's the political divide.
Paul Sinderberry: And we're seeing it happen in other countries a lot
Paul Sinderberry: more where political decisions that directly affect farming are being
Paul Sinderberry: made. The banning of glyphosate or in Sri Lanka, the
Paul Sinderberry: cutting back of fertilizer, they're wanting to go organic. And
Paul Sinderberry: it's having huge ramifications because unfortunately, the people who are
Paul Sinderberry: making these decisions don't have all the information and don't
Paul Sinderberry: understand what the implications are. And not using science. And
Paul Sinderberry: so yes, so that is a huge one, which I'd
Paul Sinderberry: leave it to the powers to try to work that
Paul Sinderberry: out, but it's a worry. And as our country becomes
Paul Sinderberry: more and more acidified, that you've got more and more
Paul Sinderberry: people who don't really understand what it is that they're dealing with.
Rohan Leach: A lot of people grew up with city cousins or
Rohan Leach: whatever, but now that just doesn't seem to happen as much. Or
Rohan Leach: people have moved to the cities and become more urbanized,
Rohan Leach: as you said.
Paul Sinderberry: Yeah. But on the whole, I'm really positive about agriculture
Paul Sinderberry: and I think we're in a great space at the moment. It's a
Paul Sinderberry: really good place to be. There's great things happening everywhere,
Paul Sinderberry: resolving now a lot of these problems. Yeah, I mean it seems
Paul Sinderberry: that we're going to have to play our part in
Paul Sinderberry: going forward. I mean, we could say one big issue
Paul Sinderberry: is the whole electrification of everything we do because I
Paul Sinderberry: don't know where we're going to get all our electricians from to fix
Paul Sinderberry: all this stuff that we're playing with. But it's so
Paul Sinderberry: exciting some of the things that are coming through. And
Paul Sinderberry: the tools that we've got to play with now and
Paul Sinderberry: help us do our job. And what we can record
Paul Sinderberry: and measure and crops, from NDVIs to the protein and
Paul Sinderberry: moisture meters and everything on our headers. And it's just
Paul Sinderberry: giving us so much information and ways that we can improve. In
Paul Sinderberry: general, I mean I think meat's going really well and
Paul Sinderberry: I'm really glad to hear that there's a bit of
Paul Sinderberry: question marks are starting to show up in the whole
Paul Sinderberry: systems. Because I think meat's go really well and meat's
Paul Sinderberry: always going to have a place. And livestock have a
Paul Sinderberry: place in our production systems. There's never any one simple
Paul Sinderberry: thing. And I just wish people would realize that sometimes that
Paul Sinderberry: just because something works really well in one area doesn't
Paul Sinderberry: make it the right thing for somewhere else. And to
Paul Sinderberry: say we must ban this or that or anything else
Paul Sinderberry: for everywhere is just ridiculous.
Rohan Leach: I think that's a really positive aspect and cracking way to
Rohan Leach: finish the podcast. Paul, thanks so much for coming on
Rohan Leach: today's episode.
Paul Sinderberry: Thanks so much, Rowan. It's been fun.
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