Neroli Brennan: This is Seeds for Success, a show where we have
Neroli Brennan: a good yarn about Ag life with producers who are
Neroli Brennan: having a go. On the show, you'll hear from farmers
Neroli Brennan: in New South Wales who are out there battling the elements,
Neroli Brennan: making tough calls, and getting the job done. You'll get
Neroli Brennan: a laugh out of some of their stories and also
Neroli Brennan: pick up some know- how along the way. I'm your host,
Neroli Brennan: Neroli Brennan. In our last episode, we introduced you to
Neroli Brennan: Anthony Shepherd as he spoke to us about his own
Neroli Brennan: production system and how discipline in management and repeatability are
Neroli Brennan: his keys for success. In today's episode, we continue our
Neroli Brennan: conversation with Anthony as he begins by telling us how
Neroli Brennan: he knows he's running the right enterprise. Anthony shares how
Neroli Brennan: he overcomes the issues of identifying multiple bearing ewes that
Neroli Brennan: don't raise both twins with some clever technology called Smart Shepard.
Neroli Brennan: As you'll hear Anthony explain, this technology allows him to
Neroli Brennan: identify the opportunities to improve his flock's fertility through removing
Neroli Brennan: the less productive ewes and chasing optimal performance. Local land
Neroli Brennan: services mixed farming advisor, Rohan Leach sat down with Anthony
Neroli Brennan: for this episode where they worked out that there's a
Neroli Brennan: difference between loving Merinos and admiring them.
Rohan Leach: You're obviously a big Merino man and you love them.
Anthony Shepherd: Just hold on the word love a bit.
Rohan Leach: Admirer. Admirer. How do you know you've picked the right
Rohan Leach: sheep enterprise? When considering the rise of Dorpers more recently,
Rohan Leach: there's lots of first cross producers out there that will
Rohan Leach: be first cross producers until they die. How do you
Rohan Leach: know that Merinos are right for you?
Anthony Shepherd: The first thing, and that's a great question, and I get asked that question by a lot of...
Anthony Shepherd: What's the most profitable and I'll go, " The most profitable
Anthony Shepherd: is the one that you enjoy most doing." If you go, " Right,
Anthony Shepherd: I've got this Merino, why isn't everyone doing the Merino
Anthony Shepherd: and what I'm doing?" And some people might try it,
Anthony Shepherd: don't do well at it, because they don't enjoy it. We've
Anthony Shepherd: got to enjoy stuff, right? Why get up? So I'll
Anthony Shepherd: go back in 2019 and the height of the drought and
Anthony Shepherd: I'm running around and everyone's feeding animals. Sheep barley was at, I don't know,
Anthony Shepherd: 450 to 500 bucks a tonne or whatever, depending on
Anthony Shepherd: carrier costs and all those things. And I'm looking at
Anthony Shepherd: these first cross ewes. I've had a lot of clients
Anthony Shepherd: with first cross ewes and shedding breeds, and there's a
Anthony Shepherd: lot of 90 to 100 kilogram use out there, a heap. Now,
Anthony Shepherd: if you talk about a DSC thing, to maintain that, they have
Anthony Shepherd: a huge energy requirement every day. And so what's important
Anthony Shepherd: to me is that also my average body weight here,
Anthony Shepherd: I know what it is, because I do data and there are 64.
Anthony Shepherd: 8 kilograms. And so as an example, they need around
Anthony Shepherd: 11 and a half megajoules of energy per day. One kilogram
Anthony Shepherd: of barley will give you 10.8 megajoules of barley per day.
Anthony Shepherd: So you can do the maths versus a 90 kilogram ewe as
Anthony Shepherd: a dry sheep will need about 21 and a half megajoules
Anthony Shepherd: per day, God forbid it lactating and rearing too. It
Anthony Shepherd: turns into nearly 40 megajoules. And you divide that 10. 8
Anthony Shepherd: available in one kilogram of barley into that 40 every
Anthony Shepherd: day for maintenance, that's nearly four kilograms of barley, which
Anthony Shepherd: physically they can't do. But if they were to do
Anthony Shepherd: that and they're on, you're running them on dirt, which
Anthony Shepherd: is what drought was to maintain that condition. If you
Anthony Shepherd: think about, I'll be nice and say the barley was
Anthony Shepherd: 400 bucks a ton, that's 40 cents a kilogram, that's $1.
Anthony Shepherd: 60 a day on that ewe times 1000 ewes times 30 days,
Anthony Shepherd: 60 days, 90 days. That's a bill. I choose Merino
Anthony Shepherd: because I enjoy it and there's a lot of challenges
Anthony Shepherd: with Merinos they get a bad rep for being a bad mother.
Anthony Shepherd: I'll argue strongly knowing what I know, I've been involved
Anthony Shepherd: with a lot of research with the CSIRO in the
Anthony Shepherd: early days and doing a lot of work and I
Anthony Shepherd: was involved in new technologies. One, I helped develop the
Anthony Shepherd: bio clip, which was the harvest removal of wool. I
Anthony Shepherd: know that the marine AU, there's a huge diversion of proteins.
Anthony Shepherd: And so as an industry, and we give a bad
Anthony Shepherd: rep to the Merino, you've been a bad mother, we've
Anthony Shepherd: actually selected for that in regard to the more we
Anthony Shepherd: select on wool because we can see it. We're telling
Anthony Shepherd: genetically that all the protein from my loosen or whatever
Anthony Shepherd: go into the wool chamber, not into repro. We haven't
Anthony Shepherd: selected for repro. And so everyone says Merinos are bad mother,
Anthony Shepherd: that's our fault. And I've got this huge fecundity
Anthony Shepherd: going on in Merino sheep and I've aligned it with the
Anthony Shepherd: right stud and I've got discipline. There's a thing called nutrition,
Anthony Shepherd: there's a thing called animal health. And been not reactive,
Anthony Shepherd: but preventing management with it.
Rohan Leach: That maternal component that you've just mentioned there, it's probably
Rohan Leach: a great segue. We did hint at it earlier in
Rohan Leach: the podcast. But yeah, a big issue in the sheep
Rohan Leach: industry at the moment is finding out the maternal pedigree
Rohan Leach: in commercial flocks. So studs are probably able to justify
Rohan Leach: the more expensive cost of genomics testing, but I believe
Rohan Leach: you utilize a lower cost method. What is that?
Anthony Shepherd: About five years ago I got involved with a system
Anthony Shepherd: called Smart Shepherd, which is developed by a man called
Anthony Shepherd: Dave Rubie, who I'm now involved with in the Smart
Anthony Shepherd: Shepherd technology. What Smart Shepherd is, Bluetooth collars that go
Anthony Shepherd: on the ewe and the lamb around lamb marking time.
Anthony Shepherd: They're on 48 hours and what we do is pair
Anthony Shepherd: the Bluetooth collar to the sheep's EID tag. So we
Anthony Shepherd: are mapping the Bluetooth address of the collar to the
Anthony Shepherd: sheep's identification, so that belongs to that sheep while it's
Anthony Shepherd: on the sheep. And we do that on both the
Anthony Shepherd: ewe and the lamb. Then they've got the collar on
Anthony Shepherd: for 48 to 72 hours depending on that age of
Anthony Shepherd: the lamb I should say. And while it's on there,
Anthony Shepherd: what's happening is the Bluetooth address on the lamb collar
Anthony Shepherd: is being mapped to the ewe's collar and it's about repeatability
Anthony Shepherd: and proximity of a Bluetooth address to a Bluetooth address.
Anthony Shepherd: And so when we take them off after 48 hours,
Anthony Shepherd: we will... A handheld device were developed with software program,
Anthony Shepherd: a web app in the handheld device and it does
Anthony Shepherd: the pairing up. It also will then read and turn
Anthony Shepherd: off the collars. So it takes about, let's say we
Anthony Shepherd: are putting on collars on 100 ewes and 140 lambs, that'll take about
Anthony Shepherd: an hour and a half to do, to put them on.
Anthony Shepherd: And I get myself and someone else to help me
Anthony Shepherd: to do that. And then 48 hours later I'll come
Anthony Shepherd: back with a handheld. You get them in, we just
Anthony Shepherd: got to unclip the collars. That it'll take, I don't know, half an
Anthony Shepherd: hour to take them off. And while we're taking them off,
Anthony Shepherd: this handheld device will read the data and turn off
Anthony Shepherd: the collars remotely. Then once I've read them all, time
Anthony Shepherd: we've taken off the collars, they're pretty much read, that information,
Anthony Shepherd: I will submit it. We've got a server in Armidale
Anthony Shepherd: in the New England and New South Wales, and we
Anthony Shepherd: will have pedigree within 10 minutes of it being submitted.
Anthony Shepherd: And so basically the collar's gone on today and 50 hours later,
Anthony Shepherd: because time you take them off and read them, they'll
Anthony Shepherd: have pedigree on those animals. And there's a cost of $
Anthony Shepherd: 4 an animal, successful pedigree. Anything that doesn't get pedigree,
Anthony Shepherd: there's no charge on that. And we will always get
Anthony Shepherd: sheep that won't have pedigree. And at the end of
Anthony Shepherd: the day, we're identifying ewes that are good maternal ewe,
Anthony Shepherd: and where they're in their environment of which ones are
Anthony Shepherd: rearing twin or single or triplet, or if there's a
Anthony Shepherd: ewe there that's not a good maternal mum and we
Anthony Shepherd: don't get enough repeatability and proximity of the lamb to
Anthony Shepherd: the ewe. We can't give that. We can't guarantee that.
Anthony Shepherd: And so the reason might be she might have a
Anthony Shepherd: little fatty udder, she mightn't have an udder. It could be
Anthony Shepherd: a twin lamb that's a runt and it's the more dominant
Anthony Shepherd: of the two twins that is taking all the milk
Anthony Shepherd: and the other one's been left behind. There's lots of reasons.
Anthony Shepherd: And so people say, "Is it as accurate as DNA?" DNA,
Anthony Shepherd: you'll get the real genomic mother and the genomic lamb
Anthony Shepherd: to the mother. It's either more accurate or less accurate. Why
Anthony Shepherd: I'm saying that is we will, the maternal ewe, we've had lots
Anthony Shepherd: of time, we've done the DNA, we'll pick up another
Anthony Shepherd: lamb because the actual true mother to the lamb, the
Anthony Shepherd: DNA lamb isn't a good maternal mother. So that lamb
Anthony Shepherd: is going to find other milk from another ewe that
Anthony Shepherd: allows it to drink its milk. So we're actually identifying
Anthony Shepherd: better maternal ewes. And with the report we're getting this,
Anthony Shepherd: let's call it a relationship number. And so at the
Anthony Shepherd: end of the day, that relationship number, the higher the number,
Anthony Shepherd: the more times of the lamb spent near the ewe
Anthony Shepherd: while the collars were on. And we're using that, it's early days,
Anthony Shepherd: but we're looking at that number to see if that
Anthony Shepherd: relates to the bigger the number, is that a better
Anthony Shepherd: maternal ewe? Also at lamb marking, I get a lamb marking weight,
Anthony Shepherd: I've got lamb weigh boxes we've developed and they just drop
Anthony Shepherd: out of the cradle and we get that first weight,
Anthony Shepherd: they've got an EID tag and we get a weight
Anthony Shepherd: and we've got their first weight at lamb marking. Then I
Anthony Shepherd: get a weight at weaning, so therefore I have two weights,
Anthony Shepherd: one at lamb marking, one at weaning. I've actually got weight
Anthony Shepherd: gain while they're on their mother. And so does that
Anthony Shepherd: relationship number relate to weight gain because they're spending more
Anthony Shepherd: time with mothers sucking on milk? We'll see, I think
Anthony Shepherd: I have a feeling in my waters about it.
Rohan Leach: And that would give you really good data on, well,
Rohan Leach: if you were a stud for example, really good data
Rohan Leach: on the actual milk production.
Anthony Shepherd: Yeah, on the maternal aspect of that ewe, right? It's
Anthony Shepherd: all right to wean more lambs that do weight gain,
Anthony Shepherd: isn't it?
Rohan Leach: Right. That's the goal. So practically, apart from people who are maybe
Rohan Leach: a bit obsessed with this thing, as I'm picking up here, this
Rohan Leach: solves that problem for twin bearing mobs that they were
Rohan Leach: scanned as a twin, but you don't know whether they've
Rohan Leach: actually raised both of those lambs.
Anthony Shepherd: Oh, that's a big fault of the industry. People that do one thing, preg scan,
Anthony Shepherd: I don't know what the stats are on that, how
Anthony Shepherd: many in industry preg scan versus not. I'm not sure,
Anthony Shepherd: but I think it's about 50 or 60%.
Rohan Leach: Okay.
Anthony Shepherd: And doing multiples with that.
Rohan Leach: I think that goes back down to about 20 to 30% of those.
Anthony Shepherd: So let's say 30%, be nice. So that is 30% of industry that does
Anthony Shepherd: multiple scanning and all the twins are put out together.
Anthony Shepherd: Let's say there's 100 twin ewes going with paddock, how
Anthony Shepherd: many lambs, especially in a Merino mob, how many lambs
Anthony Shepherd: marked out of that? And you wouldn't get much arguments about,
Anthony Shepherd: around that 130 lambs potentially. So to me the potential
Anthony Shepherd: to actual, you've got 70 potential lambs that didn't make
Anthony Shepherd: it through that lambing. That to me is opportunity about how
Anthony Shepherd: do we do that? And I can tell you now, and
Anthony Shepherd: I did all the stuff with the EID and I don't do it anymore
Anthony Shepherd: because I know that the repeatability in a ewe without
Anthony Shepherd: an udder at lamb marking every second year, they'll not have
Anthony Shepherd: an udder at lamb marking. I've got big numbers around big
Anthony Shepherd: commercial producers that we've got year- on- year- on- year
Anthony Shepherd: information on that. That's reality. And so sleep straight in
Anthony Shepherd: bed at night by getting rid of the ewe without
Anthony Shepherd: the udder at lamb marking, they are a bad employee for
Anthony Shepherd: the business. They are cost of production for the business.
Anthony Shepherd: They're the reason why people lose money. They're the most
Anthony Shepherd: expensive ewe on the farm because of all the costs
Anthony Shepherd: that have gone into that ewe and at lamb markings,
Anthony Shepherd: she's given you the bird.
Rohan Leach: So we've got all this complex technology and methods to
Rohan Leach: solve these problems that we've got, but it gets back
Rohan Leach: to what we were talking about earlier of just those
Rohan Leach: fundamental wet and drying, scanning, all of the basic best
Rohan Leach: management practice.
Anthony Shepherd: Identify the pregnant ewe, right? Preg scanning and then lamb marking,
Anthony Shepherd: which you've identified that, you've classed it, and then identify
Anthony Shepherd: the one that has not borne you a dividend. And
Anthony Shepherd: so in a Merino world, there's still a value of
Anthony Shepherd: the wool, but my goodness me, in a first cross
Anthony Shepherd: or a shedding breed, what else should they do? They
Anthony Shepherd: should get pregnant and they should rear lamb. What else
Anthony Shepherd: are they there for? So I'll go another way. Can
Anthony Shepherd: you imagine in a dairy, if a cow didn't have
Anthony Shepherd: an udder, what would happen to it? Right?
Rohan Leach: Yeah. It's the finest burger patties you've ever seen.
Anthony Shepherd: So what's the difference with a shedding breed or a
Anthony Shepherd: first cross sheep? And I get lamb markings, I understand
Anthony Shepherd: it's busy, but if you, on average with anyone, we're
Anthony Shepherd: doing this checking udders at lamb marking and I'm taking out
Anthony Shepherd: between five and 8% of ewes. The people haven't done it.
Anthony Shepherd: Up to 20%, but there's a lot of that 8% to 12%,
Anthony Shepherd: a lot in that space we have to put on
Anthony Shepherd: another person. Well, you're paying someone 300 bucks a day
Anthony Shepherd: and they're taking out ewes, let's say, I'll be nice,
Anthony Shepherd: let's say there's 8% ewes out of 100, so you take out eight ewes. Today,
Anthony Shepherd: they're worth 150 bucks. Does that pay for that person
Anthony Shepherd: doing the wet and drying? Maybe. And maybe then you
Anthony Shepherd: haven't got those animals that are going to cost you money again in
Anthony Shepherd: year two and three and four by not getting pregnant
Anthony Shepherd: and not rearing lamb.
Rohan Leach: Yeah, the results are repeatable and cumulative.
Anthony Shepherd: Absolutely. And therefore the accuracy goes up about what we're
Anthony Shepherd: getting down the track.
Rohan Leach: Well, and you've proved it in the fact that you've
Rohan Leach: started with someone's culls.
Anthony Shepherd: Fore grower's culls.
Rohan Leach: So you've taken them from in those first few years,
Rohan Leach: what were your scanning weaning rates to use joints?
Anthony Shepherd: Weaning rate in those first three years? 69, 72 and 71%.
Rohan Leach: And...
Anthony Shepherd: Death Valley.
Rohan Leach: You've brought them up to your 130 odd percent.
Anthony Shepherd: Yep. Two years joined.
Rohan Leach: In a number of 10 years?
Anthony Shepherd: Yeah, seven years?
Rohan Leach: Yep.
Anthony Shepherd: So with discipline and reduction, and the big one is
Anthony Shepherd: now I'm under 1% with no udders at land marking.
Anthony Shepherd: I'm now at 90% getting pregnant in the first three weeks,
Anthony Shepherd: and that is an objective. And also my oldest ewe
Anthony Shepherd: is a five- year- old. So after weaning a lamb
Anthony Shepherd: as a five- year- old, they are sold. And now
Anthony Shepherd: I'm getting more bids for those ewes because they've learned
Anthony Shepherd: about here that those ewes have stayed on this place
Anthony Shepherd: in the breeding program because they've ticked the boxes on pregnancy,
Anthony Shepherd: rearing lamb year- on- year on year- on- year. And so those ewes,
Anthony Shepherd: they're a highly fecundate ewe. They're a five- year old and
Anthony Shepherd: people will join them to a terminal and they'll rear
Anthony Shepherd: lamb still as a 6- year- old and good wool, right?
Anthony Shepherd: They ticked all the boxes so they are buying a second
Anthony Shepherd: hand car with a full service record and knowing that
Anthony Shepherd: it's been looked after.
Rohan Leach: Let us know when they next go up on Auctions Plus,
Rohan Leach: would you?
Anthony Shepherd: Yeah, yeah.
Rohan Leach: Mate, we've probably gone way over time, but I've had
Rohan Leach: a cracker today. But just for my last couple of questions,
Rohan Leach: what do you see as the big issue in Australian ag at
Rohan Leach: the moment?
Anthony Shepherd: Oh my goodness. How much time did you say we've got?
Rohan Leach: We're over.
Anthony Shepherd: We're way over. Well, the biggest in ag, the cost since COVID,
Anthony Shepherd: the cost of production has gone through the roof and
Anthony Shepherd: the inconsistency on the return on where the money goes
Anthony Shepherd: in and the return on whatever the product is and
Anthony Shepherd: people not understanding that ewe is a driver for the
Anthony Shepherd: return on investment from the cost of production. Now we've
Anthony Shepherd: just got to get smarter with understanding that there's a
Anthony Shepherd: whole range of increase in cost of production. There's a
Anthony Shepherd: lot of that 150 to 250% increase in cost of
Anthony Shepherd: reduction on all aspects of running these farms and understanding
Anthony Shepherd: what are the profit drivers, what are the low hanging
Anthony Shepherd: fruit profit drivers in ag, relative to what is important
Anthony Shepherd: to each producer?
Rohan Leach: There's so much, I think the cost price squeeze-
Anthony Shepherd: It's narrow. The last year when the lambs dropped off the...
Anthony Shepherd: All sheep, all protein cattle, everything was off the cliff.
Anthony Shepherd: And what happened to the cost of production at the
Anthony Shepherd: same time? They crossed over and they parted ways. They
Anthony Shepherd: were going the wrong way, both of them wrong. I would love
Anthony Shepherd: consistency in being able to... Because I do a lot
Anthony Shepherd: of benchmarking, a lot of growers on budget to actual
Anthony Shepherd: work and also using AOD and doing the benchmarking. So we've got
Anthony Shepherd: this whole... And understanding true costs and understanding the profit
Anthony Shepherd: drivers and time well spent on those profit drivers.
Rohan Leach: Is that a call for a quota? Maybe.
Anthony Shepherd: I didn't say that. I did not say that. It just does me head in there. That same animal this time last year is worth, I don't know, three bucks
Anthony Shepherd: a kilogram and today it's worth $7 and $ 8 a kilogram.
Anthony Shepherd: And these awesome producers are investing good money in good genetics,
Anthony Shepherd: good pastures, clean pastures, good clean protein going through processes, wool,
Anthony Shepherd: et cetera, and they're not getting paid for it. Maybe
Anthony Shepherd: it's an onus on us as producers, not to be
Anthony Shepherd: price takers, but actually makers. And so I've got a
Anthony Shepherd: bunch of growers and we're in conversations about that now
Anthony Shepherd: with end users on product. I mean we're sick of
Anthony Shepherd: it at the end of the day, taking it.
Rohan Leach: Yeah, that's a good one. And I think the power of collaboration and banding together-
Anthony Shepherd: And we've got the power of the information on what our
Anthony Shepherd: animals are doing and there's a value to that. Companies,
Anthony Shepherd: the classic is Gundagai Lamb, paying for the right animal and
Anthony Shepherd: it's the only probably someone buying animals offers or wool
Anthony Shepherd: offers that is actually... Normally what we call a premium
Anthony Shepherd: is reducing excuses to buyers to discount the wool or
Anthony Shepherd: to discount the product or whatever it is. The Gundagai
Anthony Shepherd: one where actually if you meet all their criteria, they
Anthony Shepherd: actually give you a bonus on top of the base.
Anthony Shepherd: So that's actually, you might nearly call it a premium.
Anthony Shepherd: And that's an incentive for me to be better, to
Anthony Shepherd: do better, to get more into that bonus, to get
Anthony Shepherd: more money because I'm doing better work.
Rohan Leach: That might lead into my next and last question, what's
Rohan Leach: the big win for ag in this use?
Anthony Shepherd: Well, I think the big win is this area. So where we
Anthony Shepherd: are now, what the big win for ag in Australia
Anthony Shepherd: is that our export markets are growing. And so what
Anthony Shepherd: countries overseas love about Australian product is all our animals
Anthony Shepherd: are not running feedlots at the end of the day
Anthony Shepherd: or the majority aren't. And countries importing our product like
Anthony Shepherd: that and they love the story behind our animal, be
Anthony Shepherd: it the wool or the protein that they're buying. And
Anthony Shepherd: that's a big strength for Australia and we've got to
Anthony Shepherd: understand that because we're now exporting, we need to be
Anthony Shepherd: more disciplined in making sure that our product stays that
Anthony Shepherd: way because we've got a big advantage over a lot of
Anthony Shepherd: other countries that don't have that and we need to
Anthony Shepherd: keep it clean. And so understanding withholding periods and ESIs
Anthony Shepherd: and exports, make sure we are good at our end
Anthony Shepherd: so we continue to grow those exports.
Rohan Leach: I think that you've talked about EID and it's just
Rohan Leach: so important for market access that if you do nothing
Rohan Leach: with EID, it's so important that we keep these diseases
Rohan Leach: out and we're able to trace animals throughout their life.
Anthony Shepherd: Yeah. And me, I just... And I'll finish on this. EID is becoming mandatory next
Anthony Shepherd: year in the sheep on a federal basis. And it's
Anthony Shepherd: introduced by each of the states are doing their own, how it's been introduced.
Anthony Shepherd: And there's a lot of criticism about the introduction of
Anthony Shepherd: EID and it's been forced on industry. Remember this at
Anthony Shepherd: the start that I was talking about I've got a
Anthony Shepherd: lot of producers that been using EID for a long, commercial
Anthony Shepherd: producers using EID for a long time when they haven't had to.
Anthony Shepherd: And we're identifying productivity. So what we are doing is turning EID
Anthony Shepherd: from a cost into an investment and everyone has an
Anthony Shepherd: opportunity to actually go, " Well, maybe there is something we
Anthony Shepherd: can use it for." And now people know what they
Anthony Shepherd: know and they know which animals stay and which animals go.
Rohan Leach: That's a great way to finish. Thanks Anthony. Thanks for
Rohan Leach: your time today.
Anthony Shepherd: Absolute pleasure, Rohan. Good on you. Thank you.
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