WEBVTT - A spicy double: How dual-purpose crops can help feed the masses 0:00:06.390 --> 0:00:09.510 This is Seeds for Success, a show where we have 0:00:09.510 --> 0:00:12.480 a good yarn about ag life with producers who are 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:15.210 having a go. On the show, you'll hear from farmers 0:00:15.210 --> 0:00:18.420 in New South Wales who are out there battling the elements, 0:00:18.570 --> 0:00:22.380 making tough calls, and getting the job done. You'll get 0:00:22.380 --> 0:00:24.690 a laugh out of some of their stories and also 0:00:24.690 --> 0:00:27.960 pick up some know- how along the way. I'm your host, 0:00:28.050 --> 0:00:36.450 Neroli Brennan. Today, we're having a yarn with Sam Mason. 0:00:36.780 --> 0:00:40.950 Sam farms at Spicers Run with his brother, Joe, and their families. 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:44.610 Spicers Run is a mixed farming operation spanning four and 0:00:44.610 --> 0:00:47.550 a half thousand hectares just north of Wellington in the 0:00:47.550 --> 0:00:52.229 Spicers Creek area. In this episode, Sam outlines how their 10- 0:00:52.229 --> 0:00:55.800 year rotation of lucerne and cropping helps them to make 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:59.010 the most of their land. He explains how dual- purpose 0:00:59.010 --> 0:01:02.400 cropping is a key component of this success, because it 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:05.940 provides a bulk of high quality feed over winter, while 0:01:05.940 --> 0:01:09.840 also providing something to harvest at the end of the season. 0:01:10.050 --> 0:01:13.770 You'll also hear Sam explain how this production intensity is 0:01:13.770 --> 0:01:17.880 a good way to battle against rising input prices, which 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:22.410 is making farming more difficult. Local Land Services cropping officer, 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:25.380 Tim Bartimote, sat down with Sam for this chat while 0:01:25.380 --> 0:01:28.830 perched amongst some dual- purpose hay samples at the back 0:01:28.860 --> 0:01:29.850 of our ag shed. 0:01:33.390 --> 0:01:36.270 Well, hello listeners. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm here 0:01:36.270 --> 0:01:38.310 with Sam Mason today. How are you going, Sam? 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:39.360 Well thanks, Tim. 0:01:39.510 --> 0:01:41.760 That's the way. Thanks for coming in this morning. Can 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:44.250 you tell us a little bit about Spicers Run? 0:01:44.490 --> 0:01:48.270 Spicers Run is a mixed farming enterprise in the Central 0:01:48.270 --> 0:01:51.810 West. It's about four and a half thousand hectares. We're about 20 0:01:51.810 --> 0:01:55.740 kilometers north of Wellington in the Spicers Creek area, and I 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:59.850 run that with my brother, Joe, and our respective families, 0:01:59.850 --> 0:02:01.770 and my mum and dad are there as well. 0:02:01.980 --> 0:02:05.550 Just for those listeners that are probably used to that 0:02:05.550 --> 0:02:08.280 Wellington area, can you kind of describe the landscape a 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:11.040 bit to start off, like soil types, that sort of thing? 0:02:11.460 --> 0:02:15.720 So it's predominantly red kurrajong, box tree country, like a 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:19.200 red clay lime is how I'd probably explain most of it. 0:02:19.290 --> 0:02:22.830 A few different soil types ranges from a heavy red 0:02:22.830 --> 0:02:27.210 basalt down to lighter creek limes and stuff. So we've 0:02:27.210 --> 0:02:29.639 got a bit of a mix, bit of a different 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:32.400 mix of topography and heights and that sort of things. 0:02:32.550 --> 0:02:35.370 And rolling hills, not particularly flat or anything like that? 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:38.880 No, that's right. I'd say it's virtually all arable. So 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:41.730 we'd be sort of 95% arable and I'd just call 0:02:41.730 --> 0:02:43.680 it a gentle rolling hills type of country. 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:45.389 And so explain to me a bit of the history 0:02:45.389 --> 0:02:47.790 of the place, because obviously four and a half thousand 0:02:47.790 --> 0:02:51.150 hectares has been brought together over a little bit of time, 0:02:51.150 --> 0:02:53.820 I imagine. How's it come into your possession? 0:02:54.300 --> 0:02:56.970 So that was mainly my father's generation that did that. Him, 0:02:57.389 --> 0:03:00.990 in conjunction with his two brothers, Nicholas and Paul, put 0:03:00.990 --> 0:03:04.590 together a bit of a conglomerate of country, most of 0:03:04.590 --> 0:03:06.330 it in that Spicers Creek area, but also a bit 0:03:06.330 --> 0:03:10.169 out towards Yeoval. And when their kids sort of got 0:03:10.169 --> 0:03:12.750 to a school- leaving type age in the early '90s, 0:03:12.750 --> 0:03:15.780 then they went their different ways and that's sort of how 0:03:15.930 --> 0:03:17.220 we ended up where we are, yeah. 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:19.740 I've done a bit of work, I guess, in that 0:03:19.740 --> 0:03:22.290 Spicers Creek area for a little bit now, and I've 0:03:22.290 --> 0:03:26.220 definitely noticed that the climate is significantly different, particularly like 0:03:26.220 --> 0:03:29.610 just further west of Dubbo. It's kind of... I don't know, when 0:03:29.610 --> 0:03:32.190 everyone's kind of thinking about harvest, you're probably a couple 0:03:32.190 --> 0:03:34.320 of weeks afterwards. Can you kind of explain to those 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:37.920 who are maybe further west than your highway, what the difference 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:40.860 there is in terms of crop maturity and that sort of stuff, 0:03:40.860 --> 0:03:43.410 and timing in terms of sowing your crops and things? 0:03:43.740 --> 0:03:46.440 Yeah, sure. Yeah, you're absolutely right about different climate there. 0:03:46.500 --> 0:03:48.780 As soon as you get east of Dubbo, you start getting into 0:03:48.780 --> 0:03:51.510 that rolling sort of country. We typically get a bit 0:03:51.510 --> 0:03:53.490 softer sort of spring. What I mean by that is 0:03:53.490 --> 0:04:00.660 just lower temps, slightly higher rainfall than the stuff west of Dubbo. And obviously, 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:03.120 I think, just that cooler finish probably helps us out, 0:04:03.180 --> 0:04:06.690 especially with growing crops and having those softer springs and stuff. 0:04:06.690 --> 0:04:11.550 I do consider Dubbo as a bit of a cutoff line between what they call the 0:04:11.550 --> 0:04:13.110 outside and inside sort of country. 0:04:13.380 --> 0:04:16.110 And so you said that you're primarily a mixed farming operation. 0:04:16.380 --> 0:04:17.730 What does that typically involve? 0:04:17.940 --> 0:04:19.890 We sort of work off a 10- year cycle. So we'll 0:04:19.890 --> 0:04:22.800 have six years of lucerne, give or take, and then 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:24.870 four years of crop. We try and keep the crop 0:04:25.170 --> 0:04:27.480 rotation pretty short and sharp, which means we've got to 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:30.089 be pretty hygienic on our fallows and sort of our 0:04:30.089 --> 0:04:33.210 cropping principles. We do this for a few reasons, we 0:04:33.210 --> 0:04:36.359 try and keep our pasture pretty productive. We pour a 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:38.849 fair bit of money into it, so we like to 0:04:39.510 --> 0:04:43.620 have a high lucerne density there at all times, otherwise, we 0:04:43.890 --> 0:04:46.350 just feel like we're wasting the value of the... wasting 0:04:46.350 --> 0:04:48.779 its capacity, I guess, to a certain extent. Then by 0:04:48.779 --> 0:04:51.060 doing sort a four- year cropping rotation, that sort of 0:04:51.060 --> 0:04:52.950 just allows us to keep a bit of a balance. 0:04:52.950 --> 0:04:57.300 So at any one time we're pretty much farming 2000 hectares, 0:04:57.300 --> 0:05:00.089 I suppose, 40% of our place. It sort of doesn't 0:05:00.089 --> 0:05:03.630 vary too much from there. Obviously, you have a weed blow- 0:05:03.630 --> 0:05:06.630 out here and there, or a wet year where you can't get 0:05:06.630 --> 0:05:08.070 country as clean as you want to. It might have 0:05:08.070 --> 0:05:10.740 an extra year in crop, and by the same token 0:05:10.830 --> 0:05:12.659 you might do a three- year rotation every now and 0:05:12.660 --> 0:05:17.070 then if it's country that lends itself more to growing 0:05:17.070 --> 0:05:20.850 pasture and grazing stock. That's our rough idea of how to 0:05:20.850 --> 0:05:21.178 get there. 0:05:21.178 --> 0:05:25.290 So a big, strong input on that lucerne side. What's 0:05:25.290 --> 0:05:28.770 your thoughts on lucerne versus other pasture species by that 0:05:28.770 --> 0:05:29.490 particular one? 0:05:29.580 --> 0:05:31.800 If your country's capable of growing it and growing it well, 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.650 it's just a really good all- rounder we've found. Particularly 0:05:34.650 --> 0:05:37.050 with sheep, we don't have to worry about bloat issues 0:05:37.050 --> 0:05:39.300 and stuff in cattle, like a lot of guys, which is, 0:05:39.420 --> 0:05:43.170 I suppose, one benefit of having a more sheep- focused enterprise. 0:05:43.170 --> 0:05:46.680 But it just suits our country, clover and lucerne. We grow 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:50.910 some phalaris and chicories and stuff like that as well in 0:05:50.910 --> 0:05:52.950 our mix just to get a bit more of a balance. 0:05:52.950 --> 0:05:57.630 But it's predominantly lucerne, clover mix, which obviously then feeds 0:05:57.630 --> 0:05:59.910 a lot of that four- year cropping cycle will be 0:05:59.910 --> 0:06:03.779 fed by those six years of pasture beforehand. So we 0:06:03.779 --> 0:06:07.440 don't have to have super high nitrogen inputs in our 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:10.860 cropping phase, which makes things a bit more economical. 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:13.169 So it's almost like you've got a nitrogen bank there 0:06:13.170 --> 0:06:15.480 sitting in the soil that you've accrued over that six 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:16.620 year period that you're kind of... ? 0:06:16.830 --> 0:06:19.080 That's kind of the idea of it. And that's why we 0:06:19.860 --> 0:06:24.060 probably tend to cut those pastures off at the five, six- 0:06:24.060 --> 0:06:27.300 year mark because we don't want them getting too dirty. 0:06:28.980 --> 0:06:31.409 We get a lot of barley grass and black oats 0:06:31.410 --> 0:06:34.050 and ryegrass and stuff in that country if you let those 0:06:34.050 --> 0:06:36.599 pasture phases go on too long, and then that'll obviously 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:40.260 start sapping that nitrogen bank that you just mentioned. And we 0:06:40.260 --> 0:06:43.050 figure we're better off trying to keep it all pretty 0:06:43.050 --> 0:06:45.270 tight and sharp, and puts us in good stead for 0:06:45.270 --> 0:06:46.470 that cropping phase. Yeah. 0:06:46.589 --> 0:06:48.870 So tell me a bit more about the livestock side 0:06:48.870 --> 0:06:51.420 of things. Is it sheep, it sounds like, primarily? 0:06:51.540 --> 0:06:55.740 Yeah, all sheep. We do dabble with fattening steers here and there, 0:06:55.740 --> 0:06:57.720 but we're not that well- equipped to do it and 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:00.599 we've just always enjoyed sheep, I suppose, as crazy as 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:01.260 that sounds, but- 0:07:01.260 --> 0:07:02.250 It does sound a bit crazy. 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:06.300 They're not for everyone, that's for sure. But I think it suits 0:07:06.300 --> 0:07:09.300 our country type and stuff there and while we've got enough people 0:07:09.300 --> 0:07:11.580 to help us with... they're a bit more labor- intensive, 0:07:11.580 --> 0:07:13.770 while we've got enough people around to help us do it, 0:07:13.830 --> 0:07:15.060 we'll probably keep doing it. Yeah. 0:07:15.270 --> 0:07:17.460 Maybe your sheep are a bit more intelligent than most. 0:07:18.390 --> 0:07:20.670 I don't know about that. But yeah, so anyway, back 0:07:20.670 --> 0:07:25.920 to the sheep enterprise, we've got... we're roughly running 9, 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:30.360 000 breeding Merino ewes, which we actually source all as 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:35.040 cast for age ewes from out in western country. When I 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:41.670 say western country, talking about Warren, Gulargambone, out to Collarenebri, majority of 0:07:41.670 --> 0:07:44.760 those grass- blood type sheep. Main reason for that being 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:47.880 we can get a good, even line of sheep that are 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.450 similar types, which is sort of what we're aiming for 0:07:51.450 --> 0:07:55.410 and it's obviously not too far away. And good, natural 0:07:55.470 --> 0:07:57.570 sheep country where they're coming from, so we don't tend 0:07:57.570 --> 0:08:02.160 to have any issues with feet and worm burdens and 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:04.470 stuff like that. So my father developed most of those 0:08:04.470 --> 0:08:08.010 relationships years ago and we've been buying off the same 0:08:08.010 --> 0:08:11.310 guys every year for some of them 20 to 30 years. So 0:08:11.310 --> 0:08:14.550 it works well for us and then we're putting a Border Leicester ram 0:08:14.550 --> 0:08:18.300 over them and running a first- cross sheep operation. So obviously, 0:08:18.300 --> 0:08:21.270 the ewe portion of them are going on to breed 0:08:21.450 --> 0:08:22.410 at other places. 0:08:22.500 --> 0:08:24.960 It's pretty interesting about... you just mentioned it in passing, 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:29.820 but the generational relationships that have been built with your 0:08:29.820 --> 0:08:33.720 father and now you're continuing. Is there anything particularly important 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:36.270 about that you reckon about maintaining that? Is it just 0:08:36.270 --> 0:08:39.840 because that works for your business and it's something that 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:43.140 you prioritize or it's just something inherent in being able 0:08:43.140 --> 0:08:45.870 to build a good working relationship with someone like that 0:08:45.870 --> 0:08:48.750 to ensure that your business is being productive as well 0:08:48.750 --> 0:08:49.679 as theirs kind of thing? 0:08:49.980 --> 0:08:51.690 I think it's pretty important in the farming world, are 0:08:51.690 --> 0:08:54.750 those relationships that you build up. But probably particularly on 0:08:54.750 --> 0:08:57.960 the stock side of things, like I think a lot 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:00.179 of guys would have the same bull and ram studs 0:09:00.179 --> 0:09:02.370 that they'd go to every year to source their genetics. 0:09:02.370 --> 0:09:04.290 And while we're not on that stud side, it's the 0:09:04.290 --> 0:09:07.080 same principles involved in our business, I guess. It works 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.020 well for us. We know what we're getting, give or take, 0:09:10.020 --> 0:09:14.069 every year off these same producers. They've always got similar 0:09:14.070 --> 0:09:17.160 amounts of sheep and consistently you're getting the same product. 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:21.570 And by the same token, the second- cross lamb breeders 0:09:21.570 --> 0:09:24.360 that are buying first- cross ewes off us are getting 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:27.209 a pretty consistent product as well. So yeah, I think 0:09:27.210 --> 0:09:29.880 it works well for everyone. They're not having to... The 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:31.740 guys that we're buying merino ewes off, they're not having 0:09:31.740 --> 0:09:36.570 to take their chances with the sale yard auction system 0:09:36.570 --> 0:09:39.780 and risk getting bad... well, they might get some really 0:09:39.780 --> 0:09:42.030 good sales, occasionally they'll get some bad ones as well, 0:09:42.030 --> 0:09:44.309 and so they're just getting a... we like to think 0:09:44.309 --> 0:09:47.580 we can just agree on a fair price for both 0:09:47.580 --> 0:09:51.000 parties and yeah, it seems to be pretty straightforward in 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:51.480 doing that. 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:56.400 So, Sam, being in Wellington, I guess that's prime, what 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:59.550 we could consider, dual- purpose country where your crops aren't 0:09:59.550 --> 0:10:02.970 just being used for grain, though they might, often utilized 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.600 for grazing with stock as a fodder option. Can you 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:10.770 kind of talk us through how Wellington's suited to selecting 0:10:10.770 --> 0:10:13.860 those particular varieties that are more dual- purpose orientated than purely 0:10:13.860 --> 0:10:15.030 grain or fodder? 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:18.390 That location thing we were talking about before. Being east 0:10:18.390 --> 0:10:23.040 of Dubbo there, and further south, probably lends itself to 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:26.969 getting a bit more gross margin off your country. We're 0:10:26.970 --> 0:10:30.330 talking smaller farms, smaller paddocks, a little bit more of 0:10:30.330 --> 0:10:33.900 an intensive system, a bit higher rainfall. All those things 0:10:33.900 --> 0:10:37.559 lend themselves to growing the dual- purpose crops. And since 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:41.370 we started growing them 15 years ago, then we haven't 0:10:41.370 --> 0:10:44.970 really looked back and we're pretty much all our cereals are 0:10:45.059 --> 0:10:48.750 more or less now dedicated to dual- purpose crops. We 0:10:48.750 --> 0:10:51.510 grow the odd straight wheat crop, we've dabbled in grazing 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:53.160 a bit of canola, which is a pretty big part 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:55.740 of our cropping phase, but we don't do that all 0:10:55.740 --> 0:10:59.699 the time. Main reason being we find the cereals a bit easier 0:11:00.179 --> 0:11:04.559 to manage and we kind of have enough country dedicated 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:06.780 to dual- purpose crops just by doing the cereals. 0:11:06.870 --> 0:11:08.850 So for those who might still be on the fence 0:11:08.850 --> 0:11:11.849 a bit in terms of dual- purpose cropping, can you give 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:14.910 me an example of why it's such a good fit 0:11:15.030 --> 0:11:18.270 and what are the potential opportunities in your business that 0:11:18.270 --> 0:11:20.189 that kind of variety opens up? 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:22.679 I think the main reason we do it is it 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:26.970 just allows us to utilize our cropping country for more 0:11:26.970 --> 0:11:29.429 months of the year for the sheep rather than just 0:11:30.059 --> 0:11:33.270 having our lucerne country just purely dedicated to the sheep. 0:11:33.270 --> 0:11:35.940 And the cropping, as cropping country, you kind of get two parts 0:11:35.940 --> 0:11:38.670 of the cherry, as the old expression goes, and we 0:11:38.670 --> 0:11:41.070 definitely pick up some other benefits. I think they're actually 0:11:41.070 --> 0:11:43.230 a really good weed control option. We've found over the 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:45.120 years we sort of don't tend to have a whole 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:48.600 lot of ryegrass and black oat pressure and stuff in 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:51.210 our grazing cereals because the sheep just walk through and 0:11:51.210 --> 0:11:53.939 selectively pick them out. I think it's one of those 0:11:53.940 --> 0:11:56.339 things where they crave a bit of variety and you're 0:11:56.340 --> 0:11:59.910 not giving them that in the cropping in those crops. So they'll tend to 0:11:59.910 --> 0:12:02.190 walk through and pick out most of the weeds and 0:12:02.190 --> 0:12:04.679 stuff like that and clean up all your fence lines 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:06.660 and stuff like that. That's a bit of a side benefit. 0:12:06.660 --> 0:12:08.400 But one of the other big things it does in 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:10.860 our area is we can have some reasonably harsh winters 0:12:10.860 --> 0:12:14.339 where we get pretty slow pasture growth. And in the past, 0:12:14.580 --> 0:12:17.760 before we started growing those dual- purpose crops, it tended 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:21.330 to really bare out the pasture country over the winter and 0:12:21.330 --> 0:12:24.390 then it was just slow coming into spring, you were 0:12:24.390 --> 0:12:28.020 having to lamb ewes down on really short, watery feed. 0:12:28.140 --> 0:12:30.000 By having the majority of our sheep on these dual- 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:32.910 purpose crops through those harshest months in winter, it tends 0:12:32.910 --> 0:12:34.770 to give the pasture a really good break. And then 0:12:34.770 --> 0:12:37.620 we'll quite often just have a lot of pasture country 0:12:37.620 --> 0:12:40.740 available to us in that early spring period that the 0:12:40.740 --> 0:12:43.590 sheep can just transition back onto and it seems to 0:12:43.740 --> 0:12:47.400 give you the break and the sheep do well out of the crops. 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:50.189 And then they get to go back onto some pretty 0:12:50.190 --> 0:12:53.850 good lucerne legume country afterwards in spring and hit the ground 0:12:53.850 --> 0:12:56.880 running as the country warms up a bit. So it's 0:12:56.880 --> 0:12:58.050 quite a big benefit as well. 0:12:58.110 --> 0:13:00.690 So give us some, I guess, rough numbers to the idea. How many grazings 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:03.630 do you typically get out of your grazing cereals? 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:05.970 It all depends on when you get those early breaks 0:13:05.970 --> 0:13:08.010 and when you get the crop in the ground and 0:13:08.010 --> 0:13:09.569 that type of thing. But we sort of work off 0:13:09.570 --> 0:13:13.110 two good grazes off our grazing cereals, so we're sort 0:13:13.110 --> 0:13:16.559 of planting them end of March, locking them up, taking the stock 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.650 off them end of July. So that's sort of our timeframe. 0:13:19.650 --> 0:13:22.650 And during that period, yeah, we'll normally get one good 0:13:22.650 --> 0:13:25.800 graze for three weeks, four weeks, give it a few weeks' break, 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:28.589 another graze and then lock them up. And then, they're 0:13:28.590 --> 0:13:30.809 typically pretty easy to manage, those crops are pretty easy 0:13:30.809 --> 0:13:33.720 to manage from that end of July period. You might 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:36.120 have a cleanup spray, it's obviously a time to duck in 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:37.530 and do some top dressing if you need it. 0:13:37.530 --> 0:13:40.620 And I guess just for the audience's benefit, there've been 0:13:40.620 --> 0:13:42.570 times where I've seen in the Wellington area those dual- 0:13:42.570 --> 0:13:44.790 purpose crops, even though you'll get those one or two 0:13:44.790 --> 0:13:48.300 grazes off it, so you're putting meat on those sheep 0:13:48.300 --> 0:13:50.880 and stuff like that and wool and things, but at the same 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:54.270 time you're also getting potentially I think I've seen like 0:13:54.270 --> 0:13:57.600 five ton plus on some of those crops? 0:13:57.690 --> 0:14:00.059 Yeah, that's right. You've got potential to get some pretty 0:14:00.059 --> 0:14:03.510 comparable yields to a straight cropping scenario there. I would say, 0:14:03.809 --> 0:14:06.450 9 times out of 10 you're probably within 80% of 0:14:06.570 --> 0:14:09.750 crop that's just been treated purely as a crop. So 0:14:09.809 --> 0:14:12.540 you do the gross margin sums and we're miles off 0:14:12.540 --> 0:14:14.940 in front with a dual- purpose scenario, hence us doing 0:14:14.940 --> 0:14:17.490 so much of it. I will say you probably can't 0:14:17.490 --> 0:14:19.530 have too much of it as well, 'cause you've got 0:14:19.530 --> 0:14:21.570 to be able to manage it with pretty high rates 0:14:21.570 --> 0:14:24.750 of sheep. A lot of it coincides with grazing at 0:14:24.750 --> 0:14:28.500 the same time. So we'll tend to go from having 0:14:28.500 --> 0:14:30.780 all our sheep under pasture and then over the space of a 0:14:30.780 --> 0:14:34.140 couple of weeks we'll have 6, 8, 10, 000 sheep on 0:14:34.140 --> 0:14:36.810 our grazing crops. So a bit of management required there, 0:14:36.810 --> 0:14:38.760 but if you've got the stocking numbers to do it 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:39.840 it's a great option, yeah. 0:14:40.020 --> 0:14:42.150 So how did you go this year? 'Cause we had 0:14:42.150 --> 0:14:45.930 a dual- purpose demonstration at your place, looking at all 0:14:45.930 --> 0:14:48.960 these different varieties and various cereals and even canola and 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:52.080 vetch and things like that. And I found in that 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.840 particular demo that because it's a bit warmer to begin 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:57.720 with in the early part of the season, it didn't get as cold as quick, 0:14:57.720 --> 0:14:59.340 it just kind of... all the varieties kind of ran 0:14:59.340 --> 0:15:01.230 ahead a little bit. Did you find that this year 0:15:01.890 --> 0:15:04.260 on your stuff and battle keeping on top of it? 0:15:04.500 --> 0:15:06.540 We didn't have the issue with stuff running to head, 0:15:06.540 --> 0:15:09.540 because the wheat and barley varieties we're growing for dual- 0:15:09.540 --> 0:15:12.570 purpose have that cold winter habit gene in them. So we're 0:15:12.570 --> 0:15:18.360 growing predominantly Kittyhawk wheat, Urambie barley, they're our main grazing varieties. So pretty 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:20.850 safe in that regard. But yeah, obviously a bit of 0:15:20.850 --> 0:15:22.860 a risk when you're sowing those crops early in March. 0:15:22.860 --> 0:15:26.190 If you have a wet mild autumn, they can really 0:15:26.190 --> 0:15:28.920 bounce away. So yeah, that was kind of what I 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:32.370 was alluding to before. You need to be prepared to 0:15:32.370 --> 0:15:34.110 have high numbers of stock to go on them to 0:15:34.110 --> 0:15:35.910 be able to manage them, but it's a bit safer 0:15:35.910 --> 0:15:39.870 if you've got those varieties that are dedicated grazing varieties. 0:15:39.870 --> 0:15:43.380 And obviously things like oats and if you're using stuff 0:15:43.380 --> 0:15:45.869 that doesn't have that cold winter habit gene in it, 0:15:45.870 --> 0:15:48.240 then yeah, that is a bit of a risk of 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:51.060 running up early and then it's coming to frost and that 0:15:51.060 --> 0:15:54.000 sort of thing. So I've seen other people in the past, 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:55.620 I think we might've even done it as well, of 0:15:55.650 --> 0:15:58.530 having to slash crops to knock them back a bit 0:15:58.530 --> 0:16:00.900 and things like that. But yeah, typically, like I said, as long 0:16:00.900 --> 0:16:03.690 as you don't sort of over- commit the amount of 0:16:03.690 --> 0:16:06.210 country compared to the amount of stock you have, then 0:16:07.230 --> 0:16:09.360 you can typically manage it okay. 0:16:09.540 --> 0:16:12.900 Yeah, no. I remember, particularly, when I think Pete Matthews 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:17.250 was doing a presentation, the cropping guru with DPI, and 0:16:17.310 --> 0:16:20.220 he made mention of Planet when it first came into 0:16:20.220 --> 0:16:22.650 the system and people were utilizing it as a grazing option, 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:25.290 it just kind of ran away a bit and so people often didn't 0:16:25.290 --> 0:16:28.230 have enough stock to compete with how much it was 0:16:28.230 --> 0:16:30.570 producing in terms of biomass. And so yeah, it's definitely 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:32.400 a good warning to heed that if you're going to 0:16:32.700 --> 0:16:34.590 do more dual- purpose cropping, make sure you've got the stock 0:16:35.310 --> 0:16:36.900 numbers to keep on top of those. 0:16:36.930 --> 0:16:39.120 Yeah. No, that is definitely a risk and a lot 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:41.100 of people tend to do that with the barley varieties 0:16:41.100 --> 0:16:43.290 because some of the varieties out there, while they might 0:16:43.290 --> 0:16:46.200 not have that cold winter habit gene, they produce huge 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:49.290 amounts of biomass and can be successfully used as a dual- 0:16:49.290 --> 0:16:51.600 purpose crop. But then yeah, you do have that risk 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:55.530 of crops getting away from your stock, and having early 0:16:55.530 --> 0:16:57.630 heads up when they shouldn't be up and having some 0:16:57.630 --> 0:16:58.200 other issues. 0:16:58.350 --> 0:17:00.390 So in terms of varieties, in that demo, was there 0:17:00.390 --> 0:17:03.870 anything that particularly caught your eye when you had a 0:17:03.870 --> 0:17:04.709 chance to have a look at it? 0:17:05.130 --> 0:17:08.460 There's plenty of impressive stuff out there. We've mainly been 0:17:08.460 --> 0:17:12.030 sticking with the Kittyhawk wheat and the Urambie barley just because we know they 0:17:12.030 --> 0:17:16.379 perform well. While they might not produce the most biomass, 0:17:16.380 --> 0:17:19.950 they have a pretty good gross margin return because we 0:17:19.950 --> 0:17:21.780 get a reasonable amount of grazing off them and then 0:17:21.780 --> 0:17:24.180 we get some pretty decent quality grain off them. We're 0:17:24.180 --> 0:17:27.000 selling all our wheat grain and keeping most of our barley on farm 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:29.160 for future sheep feed. But yeah, they just work well 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:32.010 for us. I mentioned before, we've grazed some canolas in 0:17:32.010 --> 0:17:35.250 the past and you get some exceptional numbers off them in 0:17:35.250 --> 0:17:39.000 terms of tons of biomass and they can put huge 0:17:39.060 --> 0:17:41.909 amounts of weight onto sheep, huge weight gains, sheep and 0:17:41.910 --> 0:17:44.340 cattle and stuff, but they're just that little bit harder to manage. 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:47.909 They grow quicker, you can have some high nitrates in 0:17:47.910 --> 0:17:50.490 the plant, which can cause a few animal health issues, 0:17:50.580 --> 0:17:52.920 a few things like that. But don't get me wrong, 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:55.560 there's plenty of people that are doing that successfully as well. 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:58.350 So I wouldn't rule that out if you were considering it, 0:17:58.350 --> 0:18:01.560 but it's just they are slightly trickier to manage. 0:18:01.830 --> 0:18:04.350 So what's your opinion on the push it seems in 0:18:04.350 --> 0:18:09.210 the breeding side of things, to get those, say, grazing wheats, 0:18:09.420 --> 0:18:13.590 pushing them towards higher grain quality, like able to achieve that APH, 0:18:14.130 --> 0:18:18.629 that sort of idea, consistently, and also a push in 0:18:18.630 --> 0:18:21.510 the barley space to have some more of those, that 0:18:21.510 --> 0:18:24.209 winter vernalization that you're talking about, the holding back on 0:18:24.210 --> 0:18:26.699 the reins of that plant. Do you welcome that approach, 0:18:26.700 --> 0:18:27.090 I guess? 0:18:27.210 --> 0:18:29.220 Oh, that'd be great. I think that's probably one thing, 0:18:29.220 --> 0:18:31.410 most people would agree, has been lacking a little bit 0:18:31.410 --> 0:18:35.790 in the research and development of those dedicated grazing varieties. 0:18:35.790 --> 0:18:38.400 I can't understand why, it's probably not a huge part 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:40.560 of their business for some of these grain breeders and stuff, 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:42.719 but it's certainly very important to us and more the 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:47.129 merrier in the grazing barley, oats and wheat space. I'd 0:18:47.130 --> 0:18:50.250 love to see some new varieties there that could compete with, 0:18:50.490 --> 0:18:53.310 like you said, higher grain quality classifications. 0:18:53.460 --> 0:18:55.380 That's the reason why we kind of pushed to do 0:18:55.380 --> 0:18:57.449 this demonstration is because there has been a bit of 0:18:57.450 --> 0:19:01.230 that injection lately with some of the different varieties coming through, 0:19:01.710 --> 0:19:04.500 and trying to utilize some of that European breeding stock 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:07.770 and see how that adapts to Australia. So yeah, it's 0:19:07.980 --> 0:19:09.419 hopefully watch this space, see what happens. 0:19:09.570 --> 0:19:11.700 Yeah, no, it is very interesting. I saw some of 0:19:11.700 --> 0:19:14.550 the numbers on the red wheats and stuff typically growing 0:19:14.550 --> 0:19:18.510 in Europe and North America and stuff. And my brother's brother- in- 0:19:18.510 --> 0:19:21.330 law trialed some last year and he got some phenomenal 0:19:21.540 --> 0:19:24.660 amounts of grazing off it and he was really impressed. But then, yeah, 0:19:24.660 --> 0:19:27.929 it's just that you just have that slight issue at 0:19:27.930 --> 0:19:30.119 the other end with where do you sell that grain? 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.060 And it's fine if you're keeping it just to put 0:19:33.060 --> 0:19:35.850 in your own silos and stuff. But yeah, look, more 0:19:35.850 --> 0:19:38.460 of that research that gets done, I think better for everyone. Yeah. 0:19:38.820 --> 0:19:41.639 So, Sam, just to finish off, is there something that 0:19:41.700 --> 0:19:44.790 is particularly on your mind at the moment that potentially 0:19:44.790 --> 0:19:46.320