1 00:00:02,750 --> 00:00:03,930 Speaker 1: From CurtCo Media. 2 00:00:06,090 --> 00:00:09,410 Jay Gillotti: I thought people might appreciate hearing the lives of what 3 00:00:09,410 --> 00:00:13,059 Jay Gillotti: happened to these individual cars over the last almost 50 4 00:00:13,059 --> 00:00:15,540 Jay Gillotti: years when we finished writing. Because at the end of 5 00:00:15,550 --> 00:00:18,720 Jay Gillotti: 1971, all of these cars were obsolete. Some of them 6 00:00:18,730 --> 00:00:20,389 Jay Gillotti: were sort of left for dead. 7 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 3: This is Cars That Matter. 8 00:00:39,409 --> 00:00:42,519 Robert Ross: This Robert Ross with Cars That Matter. Welcome. And I 9 00:00:42,519 --> 00:00:46,029 Robert Ross: would like to welcome a very special guest today, Jay 10 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,169 Robert Ross: Gillotti. Jay is up in Seattle at present, I'm in 11 00:00:49,169 --> 00:00:53,080 Robert Ross: Los Angeles. And we are having a great conversation over 12 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:54,969 Robert Ross: Zoom. Jay, welcome to our program. 13 00:00:55,029 --> 00:00:56,330 Jay Gillotti: Thanks Robert. I'm glad to be here. 14 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:58,810 Robert Ross: Jay, you've got quite a story and I think we've 15 00:00:58,810 --> 00:01:01,689 Robert Ross: got quite a conversation in store, especially for people who 16 00:01:01,690 --> 00:01:04,700 Robert Ross: love a very, very special and very important race car. 17 00:01:04,740 --> 00:01:07,050 Robert Ross: But before we tell everybody what that is, a little 18 00:01:07,050 --> 00:01:10,470 Robert Ross: something about you. You retired from the big corporate life 19 00:01:10,509 --> 00:01:13,770 Robert Ross: in 2016. And by my reckoning, you're still a young 20 00:01:13,770 --> 00:01:16,589 Robert Ross: guy. You've been able to focus on essentially a second 21 00:01:16,590 --> 00:01:19,660 Robert Ross: career as an automotive writer. I don't want to shortchange 22 00:01:19,660 --> 00:01:21,579 Robert Ross: you. You've been actually doing that for a long time, 23 00:01:21,580 --> 00:01:24,259 Robert Ross: but now you're doing it full time. So I don't 24 00:01:24,259 --> 00:01:27,279 Robert Ross: know if I should say condolences or congratulations, but I 25 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:28,639 Robert Ross: think that's a great transition. 26 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,459 Jay Gillotti: I think it's congratulations. The good news is when I 27 00:01:31,459 --> 00:01:34,130 Jay Gillotti: retired from the corporate world, I said that I wasn't 28 00:01:34,130 --> 00:01:37,100 Jay Gillotti: really retiring. I just wanted to work on things that I wanted 29 00:01:37,660 --> 00:01:39,810 Jay Gillotti: to work on. So that's pretty much what I'm doing. 30 00:01:39,810 --> 00:01:41,679 Robert Ross: You certainly are. And of course your name ring a 31 00:01:41,679 --> 00:01:44,199 Robert Ross: bell with me when I first got this notice to have 32 00:01:44,199 --> 00:01:48,419 Robert Ross: a podcast with you. Because as a long time Porsche Club of America member, I've 33 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,230 Robert Ross: seen your name in Panorama. And obviously you've got a 34 00:01:51,230 --> 00:01:54,200 Robert Ross: lot to say about Porsches. We're here to talk today 35 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,219 Robert Ross: about a book that you have just published with Dalton 36 00:01:58,670 --> 00:02:03,950 Robert Ross: Watson Fine Books. It's a book called Gulf 917. Boy, 37 00:02:03,950 --> 00:02:06,830 Robert Ross: that one word and that one number, it just pulls 38 00:02:06,830 --> 00:02:10,200 Robert Ross: at the heartstrings of race fans everywhere. It would not 39 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:12,720 Robert Ross: be an understatement to say that this book is really 40 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,639 Robert Ross: a magisterial achievement. It's damn near two inches thick, about 41 00:02:16,650 --> 00:02:20,090 Robert Ross: 500 pages and almost as many images. Jay, I wish 42 00:02:20,090 --> 00:02:22,970 Robert Ross: our listeners could actually hold it in their hands because 43 00:02:22,970 --> 00:02:24,970 Robert Ross: it's a hugely impressive tome. 44 00:02:25,260 --> 00:02:26,269 Jay Gillotti: Thank you very much. 45 00:02:26,269 --> 00:02:29,230 Robert Ross: It obviously culminates a close to 40 year love affair 46 00:02:29,230 --> 00:02:30,620 Robert Ross: with the Porsche 917. 47 00:02:30,750 --> 00:02:33,220 Jay Gillotti: Actually longer than 40 years, if we really want to 48 00:02:33,220 --> 00:02:35,869 Jay Gillotti: get into it. It goes back all the way to 49 00:02:35,950 --> 00:02:38,680 Jay Gillotti: the first time I saw Steve McQueen's film, which would 50 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,010 Jay Gillotti: have been the first time they showed it on network 51 00:02:41,010 --> 00:02:43,760 Jay Gillotti: television in the U. S., which we think was somewhere 52 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,910 Jay Gillotti: around 1972 or 1973. So I would have been eight or 53 00:02:46,910 --> 00:02:50,389 Jay Gillotti: nine years old, an impressionable age. Obviously it made a 54 00:02:50,389 --> 00:02:52,959 Jay Gillotti: pretty deep groove in the psyche. 55 00:02:52,989 --> 00:02:56,070 Robert Ross: Enough to make you the acknowledged expert on these cars. 56 00:02:56,130 --> 00:02:59,859 Jay Gillotti: Well, maybe one of the acknowledged experts. There are several 57 00:02:59,859 --> 00:03:01,230 Jay Gillotti: out there besides me. 58 00:03:01,230 --> 00:03:03,940 Robert Ross: Certainly a modest one at that. For those listeners who 59 00:03:03,940 --> 00:03:07,040 Robert Ross: may be familiar with the name Gulf and familiar with 60 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,359 Robert Ross: the Porsche model designation 917, it's a pretty complicated set 61 00:03:11,359 --> 00:03:15,239 Robert Ross: of historical talking points. Tell us what makes the 917 62 00:03:15,239 --> 00:03:17,049 Robert Ross: such an important car. 63 00:03:17,049 --> 00:03:19,660 Jay Gillotti: First of all, it's a car that was designed to 64 00:03:19,660 --> 00:03:22,970 Jay Gillotti: win The 24 Hours of Le Mans, which at that time and 65 00:03:22,970 --> 00:03:31,489 Jay Gillotti: perhaps still is the most important motor race in the world. Certainly at that time I think globally, it was the most important motor race. And Ferdinand 66 00:03:31,489 --> 00:03:34,639 Jay Gillotti: Piech who was head of research and development for Porsche 67 00:03:34,690 --> 00:03:37,670 Jay Gillotti: clearly set out to build a car that was capable 68 00:03:37,670 --> 00:03:41,930 Jay Gillotti: of winning overall at Le Mans. Porsche had been many, many class 69 00:03:41,930 --> 00:03:45,590 Jay Gillotti: wins at Le Mans in the first 20 years of their existence, 70 00:03:45,610 --> 00:03:48,849 Jay Gillotti: but they hadn't won the race overall. So that's what 71 00:03:48,850 --> 00:03:51,619 Jay Gillotti: he really set out to do with the 917. And 72 00:03:51,619 --> 00:03:55,520 Jay Gillotti: he was successful. Porsche was still a relatively small company 73 00:03:55,590 --> 00:03:59,780 Jay Gillotti: in 1969 when they started building the 917, I think 74 00:03:59,780 --> 00:04:03,230 Jay Gillotti: Porsche sold about 14, 000 cars. So you compare that 75 00:04:03,230 --> 00:04:06,880 Jay Gillotti: to some of the other manufacturers, and Porsche really was 76 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:08,840 Jay Gillotti: still a small family owned company. 77 00:04:08,900 --> 00:04:11,029 Robert Ross: Mercedes was like GM by comparison. 78 00:04:11,110 --> 00:04:14,180 Jay Gillotti: And of course, Porsche has gone on to win Le Mans 19 79 00:04:14,180 --> 00:04:17,070 Jay Gillotti: times in total since then. The second thing on the 80 00:04:17,070 --> 00:04:21,849 Jay Gillotti: 917 is as with everything Porsche does is engineering based, 81 00:04:21,849 --> 00:04:24,719 Jay Gillotti: and they're always looking for transfer from the race cars 82 00:04:24,719 --> 00:04:27,900 Jay Gillotti: to the street cars. So the 917 brought us a 83 00:04:27,900 --> 00:04:32,010 Jay Gillotti: lot of experimentation with exotic metals and alloys. It was 84 00:04:32,010 --> 00:04:35,520 Jay Gillotti: the first use of vented and cross drilled breaks. It 85 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:39,479 Jay Gillotti: was the first experiment with ABS, antilock braking system. And 86 00:04:39,479 --> 00:04:43,339 Jay Gillotti: of course turbo charging. For the Can- Am 917, that's 87 00:04:43,339 --> 00:04:46,150 Jay Gillotti: technology that very quickly made its way to the street 88 00:04:46,150 --> 00:04:48,549 Jay Gillotti: cars. And now, if you look at what Porsche is 89 00:04:48,550 --> 00:04:52,620 Jay Gillotti: doing today, the majority of all of Porsche's cars, especially 90 00:04:52,620 --> 00:04:56,210 Jay Gillotti: the sports cars are turbocharged. The third thing is the 91 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:00,409 Jay Gillotti: 917 has become a car culture icon, in part due 92 00:05:00,409 --> 00:05:03,279 Jay Gillotti: to Steve McQueen and the film as we mentioned. It's 93 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:08,430 Jay Gillotti: a pretty high power association between a very charismatic individual, 94 00:05:08,430 --> 00:05:12,359 Jay Gillotti: and I would argue the 917 is a highly charismatic 95 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,729 Jay Gillotti: car. In fact, Steve was famous for upstaging his costars, 96 00:05:16,820 --> 00:05:19,439 Jay Gillotti: especially early in his career in film. And I would 97 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:23,450 Jay Gillotti: argue if you watch Le Mans, the 917 actually upstages him. 98 00:05:23,909 --> 00:05:27,130 Jay Gillotti: The fourth thing on the 917 is just speed. People 99 00:05:27,130 --> 00:05:32,359 Jay Gillotti: love sheer speed. And the 917 set numerous speed records. 100 00:05:32,359 --> 00:05:35,650 Jay Gillotti: Now in 1970, Vic Elford was the first person to 101 00:05:35,650 --> 00:05:39,529 Jay Gillotti: lap Lamont at 150 mile an hour average speed in the 102 00:05:39,620 --> 00:05:44,950 Jay Gillotti: 917. '71, they were pushing something over 240 miles an 103 00:05:44,950 --> 00:05:50,001 Jay Gillotti: hour down the Mulsanne Straight. And at Spa in '71, (inaudible) 104 00:05:50,001 --> 00:05:54,279 Jay Gillotti: car's average speed was 154 miles an hour for 1, 105 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,370 Jay Gillotti: 000 kilometers. And that includes the time the car is 106 00:05:57,370 --> 00:06:01,020 Jay Gillotti: stationary in the pits. And Pedro Rodriguez set the lap 107 00:06:01,020 --> 00:06:04,950 Jay Gillotti: record at 162 miles an hour on a public road. 108 00:06:05,109 --> 00:06:08,289 Jay Gillotti: That's the fastest sports car race ever run. And I 109 00:06:08,289 --> 00:06:09,960 Jay Gillotti: doubt that record will ever be beaten. 110 00:06:10,140 --> 00:06:13,330 Robert Ross: Jay, this is an incredible overview of an incredible car. 111 00:06:13,370 --> 00:06:16,140 Robert Ross: Putting it into context, probably everybody listening to this show 112 00:06:16,140 --> 00:06:18,799 Robert Ross: has seen the recent film Ford v Ferrari. And of course 113 00:06:18,799 --> 00:06:23,150 Robert Ross: the Ford GT and the Ferrari 330s of the period were remarkable cars. 114 00:06:23,150 --> 00:06:26,549 Robert Ross: But they essentially became antiques once the 917 hit the 115 00:06:26,549 --> 00:06:29,049 Robert Ross: scene. It changed the game for everybody. Didn't it? 116 00:06:29,049 --> 00:06:31,950 Jay Gillotti: The funny thing is the 917 in a way also grew 117 00:06:31,950 --> 00:06:36,589 Jay Gillotti: out of the Ford versus Ferrari period, because the FIA 118 00:06:36,659 --> 00:06:40,229 Jay Gillotti: theoretically was not only worried about the sheer speed of 119 00:06:40,229 --> 00:06:44,359 Jay Gillotti: the GT40s with their seven liter big block American engines. 120 00:06:44,359 --> 00:06:47,159 Jay Gillotti: But also, people tend to think that the French maybe 121 00:06:47,159 --> 00:06:49,979 Jay Gillotti: weren't too happy about the Americans coming over and winning 122 00:06:49,979 --> 00:06:51,809 Jay Gillotti: Le Mans the way they did with a kind of 123 00:06:51,810 --> 00:06:55,739 Jay Gillotti: a crushing display of both money and horsepower. So the 124 00:06:55,740 --> 00:06:59,169 Jay Gillotti: FIA changed the rules after Gurney and Foyt won in 125 00:06:59,169 --> 00:07:02,770 Jay Gillotti: '67 in the Mark 4 GT, the FIA changed the 126 00:07:02,770 --> 00:07:05,549 Jay Gillotti: rules and said for '68, you've got to come down 127 00:07:05,549 --> 00:07:07,890 Jay Gillotti: to three liter prototype, which was the same as a 128 00:07:07,890 --> 00:07:10,670 Jay Gillotti: formula one motor. But they left the door open to 129 00:07:10,670 --> 00:07:15,020 Jay Gillotti: a 'sports car.' A series produced sports car could be 130 00:07:15,060 --> 00:07:18,410 Jay Gillotti: up to five liters. John Wyer and the Gulf team 131 00:07:18,470 --> 00:07:21,819 Jay Gillotti: carried on with the GT40 with a small block because the 132 00:07:21,820 --> 00:07:25,100 Jay Gillotti: GT40, they had already built more than 50. So it 133 00:07:25,100 --> 00:07:28,050 Jay Gillotti: was approved from a homologation point of view and they 134 00:07:28,050 --> 00:07:30,130 Jay Gillotti: could continue to race the GT40. 135 00:07:30,130 --> 00:07:31,660 Robert Ross: With a 289. Is that right? 136 00:07:31,660 --> 00:07:33,890 Jay Gillotti: Yeah. So the Gulf team went on to win Le 137 00:07:34,310 --> 00:07:39,410 Jay Gillotti: Mans again '68 and '69 with their GT40s. And Porsche 138 00:07:39,410 --> 00:07:42,080 Jay Gillotti: in '68 of course came out with a three liter 139 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,410 Jay Gillotti: prototype, the 908, which they had invested a lot in and 140 00:07:45,410 --> 00:07:47,850 Jay Gillotti: thought was going to be very successful. And it was 141 00:07:47,850 --> 00:07:48,679 Jay Gillotti: successful. 142 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:49,771 Robert Ross: A lot of drivers like that car. 143 00:07:49,771 --> 00:07:52,240 Jay Gillotti: They are terrific cars. However, at the end of '68, 144 00:07:53,510 --> 00:07:57,140 Jay Gillotti: the Gulf team had won the championship for Ford, the 145 00:07:57,140 --> 00:08:02,160 Jay Gillotti: manufacturer's championship because Le Mans counted for more points than any of the other 146 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,250 Jay Gillotti: races. The Gulf team had used all of three chassis 147 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,980 Jay Gillotti: during the season. Whereas Porsche had built somewhere around 40 148 00:08:10,030 --> 00:08:13,930 Jay Gillotti: or more racing cars for their racing effort in '68. 149 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:17,040 Jay Gillotti: So that I think became a concern for ferry Porsche, 150 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,800 Jay Gillotti: just the amount of money that Porsche was spending. On 151 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,250 Jay Gillotti: the other hand, Ferdinand Piech, when the FIA changed the rules 152 00:08:23,250 --> 00:08:25,860 Jay Gillotti: and said, " Okay, we'll bring it down to 25 cars 153 00:08:25,860 --> 00:08:30,320 Jay Gillotti: for group four, five liter homologation." Ferdinand Piech had that 154 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:32,610 Jay Gillotti: light bulb moment and said, " Wait a minute, we're building 155 00:08:32,610 --> 00:08:35,319 Jay Gillotti: all these cars anyway. Why can't we just go ahead 156 00:08:35,319 --> 00:08:38,760 Jay Gillotti: and build 25 cars all at once and we'll get 157 00:08:38,870 --> 00:08:42,819 Jay Gillotti: homologation approval for a five liter sports racer based on 158 00:08:42,819 --> 00:08:47,170 Jay Gillotti: our 908." And that's really how the 917 project got started. 159 00:08:47,170 --> 00:08:50,689 Robert Ross: Let's jump off and help me understand, and those listeners 160 00:08:50,689 --> 00:08:53,790 Robert Ross: who may not have a full taxonomy of 917s under 161 00:08:53,790 --> 00:08:56,530 Robert Ross: their belt, there are so many of them. What are 162 00:08:56,530 --> 00:08:59,230 Robert Ross: all the variants? You talk about short tails, and long 163 00:08:59,230 --> 00:09:02,270 Robert Ross: tails, and spiders, and these evil Can- Am cars. And 164 00:09:02,470 --> 00:09:05,739 Robert Ross: there's even a 16 cylinder prototype at one time. Let's 165 00:09:05,740 --> 00:09:09,189 Robert Ross: talk about the Gulf cars because that is what your 166 00:09:09,189 --> 00:09:09,499 Robert Ross: book is about. 167 00:09:09,819 --> 00:09:13,459 Jay Gillotti: The first 25 cars that were built actually came with 168 00:09:13,459 --> 00:09:16,020 Jay Gillotti: two tails. You could have a short tail or a 169 00:09:16,020 --> 00:09:19,080 Jay Gillotti: long tail. The tails were detachable, and you could run 170 00:09:19,089 --> 00:09:21,270 Jay Gillotti: them either in a short tail or a long tail 171 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,790 Jay Gillotti: form. The problem was the car was highly unstable, no 172 00:09:24,790 --> 00:09:27,280 Jay Gillotti: matter what tail you put on it at that point. 173 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,309 Robert Ross: Those tails obviously weren't a fashion statement. Tell us what 174 00:09:30,309 --> 00:09:31,179 Robert Ross: they were used for. 175 00:09:31,230 --> 00:09:33,970 Jay Gillotti: The long tail was supposed to be lower drag for 176 00:09:33,970 --> 00:09:36,689 Jay Gillotti: high speed circuits. They did use the short tail at 177 00:09:36,689 --> 00:09:40,059 Jay Gillotti: Spa, even though Spa is a high speed circuit. But 178 00:09:40,059 --> 00:09:43,709 Jay Gillotti: neither tail worked particularly well because the car was so 179 00:09:43,709 --> 00:09:47,959 Jay Gillotti: fast. The art of aerodynamics in motor racing at that 180 00:09:47,959 --> 00:09:50,640 Jay Gillotti: time was still something of a black art. And they 181 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,209 Jay Gillotti: just didn't understand that the cars were going so fast, 182 00:09:54,209 --> 00:09:56,300 Jay Gillotti: that they were creating lift at the rear of the 183 00:09:56,300 --> 00:09:59,410 Jay Gillotti: car. The rear wheels were literally trying to take off 184 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,739 Jay Gillotti: at speeds up around 200 and beyond. So of course, 185 00:10:02,740 --> 00:10:05,559 Jay Gillotti: when your rear wheels lift up off the ground, it's 186 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,780 Jay Gillotti: unstable and hard to control. But in '69 Porsche also 187 00:10:09,780 --> 00:10:13,510 Jay Gillotti: tried the first open cockpit spider of the 917 for 188 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,370 Jay Gillotti: the Can- Am. (inaudible) drove the car in the Can- 189 00:10:16,370 --> 00:10:19,439 Jay Gillotti: Am in 69, kind of an experiment. They didn't have 190 00:10:19,439 --> 00:10:22,579 Jay Gillotti: the horsepower to really race against the McLarens. But Joe 191 00:10:22,579 --> 00:10:24,520 Jay Gillotti: did pretty well. I think he finished in the top 192 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:29,280 Jay Gillotti: five in all the races he did in '69. For 1970 and '71, 193 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,439 Jay Gillotti: you mainly have two variations. You have the short tail, 194 00:10:32,439 --> 00:10:35,959 Jay Gillotti: the 917K. And that's the tail that was jointly developed 195 00:10:35,959 --> 00:10:38,920 Jay Gillotti: by the Gulf team and Porsche. Porsche also developed a 196 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,939 Jay Gillotti: new version of the long tail for 1971 in cooperation 197 00:10:42,939 --> 00:10:47,249 Jay Gillotti: with SERA S-E-R- A, which is the French aerodynamicists. And 198 00:10:47,250 --> 00:10:50,620 Jay Gillotti: that car was much more stable and much faster and 199 00:10:50,620 --> 00:10:53,319 Jay Gillotti: allowed Vic, as I said, do that 150 mile an 200 00:10:53,319 --> 00:10:56,420 Jay Gillotti: hour lap at Le Mans. Then we have the spiders, 201 00:10:56,420 --> 00:10:59,689 Jay Gillotti: again, both for Can- Am and inter serie racing in 202 00:10:59,689 --> 00:11:02,350 Jay Gillotti: Europe where you didn't need headlights. You didn't need to 203 00:11:02,350 --> 00:11:04,809 Jay Gillotti: have a roof. There were sort of Can- Am rules, 204 00:11:04,870 --> 00:11:07,040 Jay Gillotti: and there was no minimum weight. So you could cut 205 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,550 Jay Gillotti: the roof off and have a spider. And then for Can- 206 00:11:09,550 --> 00:11:14,600 Jay Gillotti: Am in 72, they developed the 917/10, which eventually became 207 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,209 Jay Gillotti: the first Porsche to be turbocharged. And from the 917/10, 208 00:11:18,209 --> 00:11:21,699 Jay Gillotti: we went to the 917/ 30 in 1973. 209 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:23,000 Robert Ross: That was the big brute. Wasn't it? 210 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,440 Jay Gillotti: Well, the 917/ 30 as raised by Mark Donohue and 211 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,439 Jay Gillotti: the Penske team developed. You hear all kinds of numbers 212 00:11:29,439 --> 00:11:31,559 Jay Gillotti: and it's hard to really nail down what the numbers 213 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:35,510 Jay Gillotti: were, but certainly something in the region of 1, 200 horsepower 214 00:11:35,510 --> 00:11:39,020 Jay Gillotti: or more depending on the boost was available to Mark 215 00:11:39,089 --> 00:11:44,110 Jay Gillotti: in the 917/30. Probably the 917/ 10s that everybody else was racing 216 00:11:44,110 --> 00:11:46,770 Jay Gillotti: were somewhere close to that in terms of horsepower. 217 00:11:46,829 --> 00:11:49,239 Robert Ross: That's big power for the time, especially given the rubber 218 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,500 Robert Ross: technology, and breaking, and everything else they had to contend 219 00:11:52,500 --> 00:11:55,249 Robert Ross: with. Turbos were pretty primitive animals back then too. 220 00:11:55,490 --> 00:11:59,420 Jay Gillotti: Verbose were common in old track IndyCar racing and had 221 00:11:59,420 --> 00:12:02,370 Jay Gillotti: been for quite a period of time. But to use 222 00:12:02,420 --> 00:12:06,379 Jay Gillotti: a turbocharged engine for sports car racing on a road 223 00:12:06,380 --> 00:12:09,509 Jay Gillotti: circuit was a whole new different animal to try to 224 00:12:09,510 --> 00:12:13,010 Jay Gillotti: make the car controllable and make all that power usable 225 00:12:13,010 --> 00:12:14,870 Jay Gillotti: on a circuit where you have to speed up, and 226 00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:17,620 Jay Gillotti: slow down, and go around corners, and so on. That 227 00:12:17,620 --> 00:12:21,189 Jay Gillotti: was all new territory. Donohue and the Penske team helped 228 00:12:21,189 --> 00:12:24,079 Jay Gillotti: a lot with Porsche and developing that. As we say, 229 00:12:24,079 --> 00:12:25,010 Jay Gillotti: the rest is history. 230 00:12:25,010 --> 00:12:28,059 Robert Ross: By 1974, we had a 930 turbo 911. 231 00:12:28,059 --> 00:12:31,100 Jay Gillotti: It's amazing how quickly that technology made it to the 232 00:12:31,100 --> 00:12:34,900 Jay Gillotti: street. And then Porsche went on to win numerous additional 233 00:12:34,900 --> 00:12:39,719 Jay Gillotti: victories at Le Mans with turbo charge 936, 956, 962. 234 00:12:39,719 --> 00:12:43,790 Robert Ross: Thanks for that primmer on the 917, a fascinating family tree of 235 00:12:43,860 --> 00:12:48,150 Robert Ross: remarkable cars. But within that family tree, you have focused 236 00:12:48,150 --> 00:12:51,410 Robert Ross: on the so- called Gulf cars. Everybody probably knows Gulf 237 00:12:51,410 --> 00:12:53,699 Robert Ross: Blue. I'm a fan of it. And a true confession. I've got 238 00:12:53,699 --> 00:12:56,459 Robert Ross: a car, it's called blue because for me it represents probably the 239 00:12:56,459 --> 00:13:00,730 Robert Ross: most iconic racing team in history. So you've got a 240 00:13:00,730 --> 00:13:05,500 Robert Ross: book called Gulf 917. We got the Porsche factory, we've got Gulf Oil, 241 00:13:05,500 --> 00:13:08,270 Robert Ross: we've got the John Wyer racing. Tell us what it's all 242 00:13:08,270 --> 00:13:09,929 Robert Ross: about. How did it all come together? 243 00:13:11,730 --> 00:13:14,410 Jay Gillotti: It's actually what I would consider an early experiment in what today we would call 244 00:13:14,410 --> 00:13:19,219 Jay Gillotti: outsourcing. Porsche, by most accounts Ferry Porsche thought that Porsche 245 00:13:19,219 --> 00:13:22,069 Jay Gillotti: was spending too much money on their racing. Not just 246 00:13:22,069 --> 00:13:25,770 Jay Gillotti: money, but also engineering resources. In a small company, he 247 00:13:25,770 --> 00:13:29,150 Jay Gillotti: thought perhaps his engineers were spending too much time actually 248 00:13:29,150 --> 00:13:32,900 Jay Gillotti: traveling to the races and conducting the races as opposed 249 00:13:32,900 --> 00:13:36,079 Jay Gillotti: to being at their desk and designing the next generation 250 00:13:36,079 --> 00:13:39,309 Jay Gillotti: of Porsche street cars as well as racing cars. And 251 00:13:39,309 --> 00:13:41,179 Jay Gillotti: then there was a little bit of if you can't 252 00:13:41,179 --> 00:13:43,610 Jay Gillotti: beat them, join them. I mean, Porsche had lost the 253 00:13:43,610 --> 00:13:47,780 Jay Gillotti: championship and lost at Le Mans to John Wyer's team in '68. 254 00:13:47,780 --> 00:13:50,819 Jay Gillotti: So they came up with this idea to actually outsource 255 00:13:50,819 --> 00:13:54,610 Jay Gillotti: the factory, the official factory Porsche racing team to John 256 00:13:54,610 --> 00:13:59,280 Jay Gillotti: Wyer with Gulf sponsorship for 1970 and '71. That's how 257 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,150 Jay Gillotti: the Gulf 917 story got its start. Important piece of 258 00:14:03,150 --> 00:14:06,530 Jay Gillotti: it was toward the end of 1969, the very first 259 00:14:06,530 --> 00:14:09,969 Jay Gillotti: test session that was attended by John Horsman, who was 260 00:14:09,969 --> 00:14:12,679 Jay Gillotti: the chief engineer for the Gulf team was a test 261 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,939 Jay Gillotti: session at Zeltweg in Austria. And they still couldn't get 262 00:14:15,939 --> 00:14:18,270 Jay Gillotti: the 917 to behave on track. 263 00:14:18,270 --> 00:14:20,930 Robert Ross: The 69 was a troublesome debut for that car. Is that right? 264 00:14:21,330 --> 00:14:24,200 Jay Gillotti: The driver is were afraid of it. Some of them 265 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,940 Jay Gillotti: were anyway. My friend Vic Elford was not afraid of 266 00:14:26,940 --> 00:14:29,519 Jay Gillotti: it. He loved it, even though it was a spooky 267 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,530 Jay Gillotti: handling. But being a rally driver I think gave him 268 00:14:32,610 --> 00:14:35,500 Jay Gillotti: a little different level of confidence with being able to 269 00:14:35,500 --> 00:14:38,609 Jay Gillotti: control the car on track, at least at Le Mans, which is 270 00:14:38,610 --> 00:14:42,160 Jay Gillotti: where he almost darn near won Le Mans in 1969. They were 271 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,470 Jay Gillotti: 50 miles in the lead when the transmission case cracked. 272 00:14:45,530 --> 00:14:48,780 Jay Gillotti: The 917 did win its first race in August of 273 00:14:48,780 --> 00:14:52,470 Jay Gillotti: 69 at Zeltweg. But the still wasn't handling in a 274 00:14:52,470 --> 00:14:55,300 Jay Gillotti: way that gave the drivers full confidence in what the 275 00:14:55,300 --> 00:14:58,320 Jay Gillotti: car was doing. So in October of '69, the first 276 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,210 Jay Gillotti: test that was attended by the Gulf team with John 277 00:15:01,210 --> 00:15:05,450 Jay Gillotti: Horsman as the engineer, they basically figured it out. John 278 00:15:05,450 --> 00:15:08,860 Jay Gillotti: noticed that the little gnats, the little bugs were collecting 279 00:15:08,860 --> 00:15:11,020 Jay Gillotti: on the front of the car, but there was nothing 280 00:15:11,020 --> 00:15:13,280 Jay Gillotti: on the tail. There were no little bugs, no little 281 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,629 Jay Gillotti: dead bugs. Even though the tail flaps were raised almost 282 00:15:16,630 --> 00:15:19,950 Jay Gillotti: full vertical position, there was just nothing. He just said, " 283 00:15:19,950 --> 00:15:22,160 Jay Gillotti: There's no air getting on the tail. So there's no 284 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,710 Jay Gillotti: downforce back there." So the Porsche guys let him borrow 285 00:15:25,710 --> 00:15:27,790 Jay Gillotti: one of the two coops that was there and they 286 00:15:27,790 --> 00:15:32,300 Jay Gillotti: cobbled together using some sheet aluminum, and pop rivets, and 287 00:15:32,300 --> 00:15:37,310 Jay Gillotti: tape. They basically created this upward sweeping tale. It was an 288 00:15:37,310 --> 00:15:40,790 Jay Gillotti: amazing transformation. Brian Redman was the first guy to drive 289 00:15:40,790 --> 00:15:43,760 Jay Gillotti: it when this cobbled together tail was ready. And I 290 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,410 Jay Gillotti: think he was pretty skeptical at first, but they had 291 00:15:46,410 --> 00:15:50,340 Jay Gillotti: been trying to fix the car by adjusting the suspension 292 00:15:50,340 --> 00:15:53,890 Jay Gillotti: with spring rates and shocks, and nothing was working. And 293 00:15:53,890 --> 00:15:56,070 Jay Gillotti: the drivers would only go out for two laps, and 294 00:15:56,070 --> 00:15:57,670 Jay Gillotti: then they would come in, they would shake their head. 295 00:15:57,670 --> 00:15:59,810 Jay Gillotti: They would say, " No, it's no better." But when Brian 296 00:15:59,810 --> 00:16:03,120 Jay Gillotti: tried the so- called horseman tail the first time, he 297 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,879 Jay Gillotti: stayed out for five laps and was going progressively faster, 298 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,669 Jay Gillotti: came in the pits, and famously said, " Now it's a 299 00:16:09,670 --> 00:16:10,479 Jay Gillotti: racing car." 300 00:16:10,790 --> 00:16:14,540 Robert Ross: Entomology in the service of motor sport. And by the way, the resulting 301 00:16:14,540 --> 00:16:18,670 Robert Ross: cars were some of the most beautiful profiles of any race cars there. 302 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,840 Jay Gillotti: John Horsman gets a lot of good credit for solving 303 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,100 Jay Gillotti: the problem. But I think that we also have to 304 00:16:24,100 --> 00:16:27,820 Jay Gillotti: remember that it's pretty well accepted that the Porsche engineers 305 00:16:27,820 --> 00:16:30,710 Jay Gillotti: that were at the test, at least Helmut Flegl and Peter 306 00:16:30,710 --> 00:16:33,550 Jay Gillotti: Falk who were the Porsche engineers at the test. They knew 307 00:16:33,550 --> 00:16:36,890 Jay Gillotti: full well what the problem was. Their problem was with 308 00:16:36,890 --> 00:16:40,450 Jay Gillotti: their boss because Ferdinand Piech had a mandate that the 309 00:16:40,450 --> 00:16:42,820 Jay Gillotti: cars must be low drag. He wanted it to go 310 00:16:42,820 --> 00:16:46,979 Jay Gillotti: fast down the straight. So minimizing drag was it for 311 00:16:46,979 --> 00:16:50,080 Jay Gillotti: him. So they didn't quite know how to tell their boss, " 312 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,180 Jay Gillotti: We've got to sacrifice on drag to get some downforce 313 00:16:53,180 --> 00:16:55,930 Jay Gillotti: so this car will handle," but they were conveniently then 314 00:16:55,930 --> 00:16:58,450 Jay Gillotti: able to blame it on John Horsman and the Gulf 315 00:16:58,450 --> 00:17:00,580 Jay Gillotti: team. And they could go to their boss and say, " 316 00:17:00,580 --> 00:17:04,000 Jay Gillotti: Look, the car is four seconds a lap faster." And 317 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,359 Jay Gillotti: when you think as Brian would say, when you think 318 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,450 Jay Gillotti: how you struggle for a 10th or two. 319 00:17:08,649 --> 00:17:10,730 Robert Ross: That's an eternity, that's a lifetime. 320 00:17:10,820 --> 00:17:13,260 Jay Gillotti: And then when they put it on Firestone tires, five 321 00:17:13,260 --> 00:17:17,340 Jay Gillotti: seconds faster. Porsche had to do the engineering of actually 322 00:17:17,369 --> 00:17:20,940 Jay Gillotti: creating the new rear body work based on the experiment 323 00:17:20,940 --> 00:17:23,440 Jay Gillotti: that Horsman had done. And that allowed for a bunch 324 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,669 Jay Gillotti: of other changes to the car that we're now so 325 00:17:25,669 --> 00:17:28,500 Jay Gillotti: familiar with. All the exhaust could exit out the back 326 00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:31,800 Jay Gillotti: of the car, the ray's tail allowed for the transmission 327 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,810 Jay Gillotti: theoretically to stay cooler because there was more air circulation 328 00:17:34,810 --> 00:17:37,729 Jay Gillotti: back there then in the original car. So they had to figure 329 00:17:37,730 --> 00:17:40,780 Jay Gillotti: all that out. And they only had about four weeks 330 00:17:40,850 --> 00:17:43,330 Jay Gillotti: to create the new body shape. Oh by the way, 331 00:17:43,330 --> 00:17:45,149 Jay Gillotti: at the same time, they were also working on a 332 00:17:45,149 --> 00:17:47,939 Jay Gillotti: new shape for the nose. So it was a combination 333 00:17:47,940 --> 00:17:50,960 Jay Gillotti: also of the new shape of the nose with the Horsman 334 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,629 Jay Gillotti: tail. And they only had about four weeks before they 335 00:17:53,629 --> 00:17:56,519 Jay Gillotti: had to go to Daytona for the super secret test 336 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,830 Jay Gillotti: in November of '69. And that is something I cover 337 00:17:59,830 --> 00:18:02,869 Jay Gillotti: in the book because it's an interesting test because no 338 00:18:02,869 --> 00:18:06,100 Jay Gillotti: photographs exist. It was so secret. And in the book, 339 00:18:06,100 --> 00:18:08,379 Jay Gillotti: I actually commissioned a couple of paintings that are kind 340 00:18:08,379 --> 00:18:11,530 Jay Gillotti: of like what if paintings. What if there were photographs? 341 00:18:11,530 --> 00:18:13,899 Jay Gillotti: What might it have looked like at that test? But 342 00:18:13,899 --> 00:18:16,500 Jay Gillotti: that test proved that the cars were ready to race 343 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,090 Jay Gillotti: in this new configuration in '71. The rest is history, 344 00:18:20,090 --> 00:18:20,699 Jay Gillotti: as they say. 345 00:18:20,750 --> 00:18:24,710 Robert Ross: Your book really is an exercise in obsessive detail. And 346 00:18:24,710 --> 00:18:26,389 Robert Ross: that's a good thing by the way. One of the 347 00:18:26,389 --> 00:18:29,520 Robert Ross: reasons that it's so again, I use the word magisterial, 348 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,090 Robert Ross: is that it doesn't leave any stone unturned. And it 349 00:18:32,090 --> 00:18:37,870 Robert Ross: provides a VIN by VIN analysis of every single Gulf 350 00:18:37,970 --> 00:18:42,250 Robert Ross: 917. And there are 14 chassis and you talk about all of them. 351 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,359 Jay Gillotti: Going into it, there was a thought in the back 352 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:46,540 Jay Gillotti: of my mind of why do we need another book 353 00:18:46,540 --> 00:18:50,470 Jay Gillotti: about the 917? The 917 has been written about a lot. 354 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,030 Jay Gillotti: More books have been published about the 917 than any other 355 00:18:54,030 --> 00:18:57,609 Jay Gillotti: Porsche racing car. I think I counted something over 20 356 00:18:57,609 --> 00:19:01,479 Jay Gillotti: books that have been written in the last 40 plus 357 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,580 Jay Gillotti: years of course, about the 917. But I thought it 358 00:19:04,580 --> 00:19:07,399 Jay Gillotti: would be nice to tell the story. The story hadn't 359 00:19:07,399 --> 00:19:10,350 Jay Gillotti: fully been told from the English side, from the Gulf 360 00:19:10,350 --> 00:19:11,760 Jay Gillotti: team's perspective. 361 00:19:11,790 --> 00:19:14,959 Robert Ross: Wyer was British and all of this work was German car 362 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:19,040 Robert Ross: with German engineers and British development people. And of course, international 363 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:19,649 Robert Ross: team of drivers. 364 00:19:19,690 --> 00:19:23,899 Jay Gillotti: There certainly were politics because not everyone at Porsche necessarily 365 00:19:23,899 --> 00:19:28,050 Jay Gillotti: thought this was the greatest idea to outsource their factory 366 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,869 Jay Gillotti: cars to the Englanders. The thought is that not everybody 367 00:19:31,929 --> 00:19:35,760 Jay Gillotti: necessarily went along with this. And Ferdinand Piech did a few 368 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:40,129 Jay Gillotti: things perhaps to hedge his bets. His mother Louise Piech 369 00:19:40,129 --> 00:19:43,439 Jay Gillotti: owned Porsche Salzburg, which is the Austrian arm of the 370 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,050 Jay Gillotti: Porsche business that was the importer for Volkswagen and Porsche 371 00:19:47,050 --> 00:19:51,090 Jay Gillotti: in Austria. So in that Daytona in 1970, the Gulf team 372 00:19:51,090 --> 00:19:53,270 Jay Gillotti: shows up with their two cars, and all of a 373 00:19:53,270 --> 00:19:56,560 Jay Gillotti: sudden there's a third 917 there that they weren't expecting. 374 00:19:56,609 --> 00:20:00,629 Jay Gillotti: And it's entered by Porsche Salzburg. Fer Piech is there with Porsche 375 00:20:00,629 --> 00:20:04,940 Jay Gillotti: factory mechanics. He's got theoretically two Porsche factory drivers, including 376 00:20:04,940 --> 00:20:09,340 Jay Gillotti: Vic Elford. So there was some question about internal competition 377 00:20:09,340 --> 00:20:11,750 Jay Gillotti: there, but the Gulf team did very well in that 378 00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:14,990 Jay Gillotti: first race and Rodriguez and (inaudible) won with some 379 00:20:14,990 --> 00:20:18,159 Jay Gillotti: help from Brian Redman won the race by 45 laps. 380 00:20:18,220 --> 00:20:20,869 Jay Gillotti: It was a pretty crushing display, not only by the 381 00:20:20,869 --> 00:20:25,109 Jay Gillotti: 917 itself finishing first and second, but also the Gulf 382 00:20:25,109 --> 00:20:28,560 Jay Gillotti: team conducted the race in the way that Porsche was 383 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,100 Jay Gillotti: hoping they would. And that's really I think what Porsche 384 00:20:31,100 --> 00:20:34,919 Jay Gillotti: was betting on was the conduct of the racing program would 385 00:20:34,919 --> 00:20:38,340 Jay Gillotti: be very effective under John Wyer's leadership and with Gulf 386 00:20:38,340 --> 00:20:41,609 Jay Gillotti: Oil from the United States helping with paying the bills. 387 00:20:41,649 --> 00:20:45,050 Robert Ross: Was it just by accident that Gulf was brought in, and not Shell, or 388 00:20:45,050 --> 00:20:46,570 Robert Ross: Union, or somebody else? 389 00:20:46,570 --> 00:20:49,609 Jay Gillotti: Chapter three in my book is a chapter called Gulf 390 00:20:49,609 --> 00:20:53,210 Jay Gillotti: versus Porsche. And it talks not only about the period 391 00:20:53,210 --> 00:20:56,020 Jay Gillotti: of time where Gulf was racing against Porsche, but it 392 00:20:56,020 --> 00:20:58,580 Jay Gillotti: also talks a little bit about how the relationship got 393 00:20:58,580 --> 00:21:02,050 Jay Gillotti: started between John Wyer and Grady Davis, who was the 394 00:21:02,050 --> 00:21:06,119 Jay Gillotti: executive vice president of Gulf Oil. Grady bought a GT40 395 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,129 Jay Gillotti: for himself that he thought he might race. That really 396 00:21:09,129 --> 00:21:13,729 Jay Gillotti: started the relationship between Grady Davis and John Wyer. Grady 397 00:21:13,730 --> 00:21:17,760 Jay Gillotti: Davis apparently consulted with John Wyer about how Gulf could 398 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:22,679 Jay Gillotti: best deploy its marketing dollars relative to motor sport. Most 399 00:21:22,679 --> 00:21:25,540 Jay Gillotti: of the other oil companies were spreading their dollars out 400 00:21:25,540 --> 00:21:29,970 Jay Gillotti: very widely with signage at the race tracks and putting 401 00:21:29,970 --> 00:21:34,220 Jay Gillotti: one small decal on everybody's car. John Wyer, very cajole I 402 00:21:34,220 --> 00:21:37,690 Jay Gillotti: think said, " If you would just sponsor one car in 403 00:21:37,690 --> 00:21:42,050 Jay Gillotti: your colors, you would get much better exposure than the 404 00:21:42,050 --> 00:21:45,560 Jay Gillotti: other fuel companies like Elf and Shell." And Wyer may 405 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,899 Jay Gillotti: have been a little bit self serving in that advice. But as it 406 00:21:48,899 --> 00:21:51,899 Jay Gillotti: turned out, the combination of Gulf and John Wyer was 407 00:21:51,899 --> 00:21:55,350 Jay Gillotti: pretty successful right out of the gate in 1967, which 408 00:21:55,350 --> 00:21:57,820 Jay Gillotti: was their first season. They did pretty well. There's an 409 00:21:57,820 --> 00:22:01,250 Jay Gillotti: interesting story about the colors because initially Grady Davis, they 410 00:22:01,250 --> 00:22:05,689 Jay Gillotti: raised his GT40 at Daytona and Sebring in '67. And 411 00:22:05,689 --> 00:22:08,720 Jay Gillotti: he had it painted in the more traditional dark metallic 412 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,760 Jay Gillotti: blue with the orange, which was more of the official Gulf 413 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,889 Jay Gillotti: corporate colors. But all the guys thought that color combination 414 00:22:14,889 --> 00:22:17,129 Jay Gillotti: was a bit on the dull side. So they went 415 00:22:17,129 --> 00:22:19,859 Jay Gillotti: looking for something that would pop a little more. So 416 00:22:19,859 --> 00:22:23,040 Jay Gillotti: they came across the light blue with the Marigold, which 417 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,280 Jay Gillotti: is the official name of the orange. And people just 418 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,189 Jay Gillotti: instantly took a liking to it. And the livery developed 419 00:22:28,189 --> 00:22:31,540 Jay Gillotti: a little bit during the '67 season, but it carried 420 00:22:31,540 --> 00:22:33,999 Jay Gillotti: on for a number of years. There's a whole color 421 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,790 Jay Gillotti: science to the light blue and orange, and why they 422 00:22:36,790 --> 00:22:40,210 Jay Gillotti: work together, and they're opposite each other on the color wheel. 423 00:22:40,389 --> 00:22:41,520 Robert Ross: Complementary colors. Yeah? 424 00:22:41,850 --> 00:22:44,820 Jay Gillotti: And again, the Steve McQueen movie, the great question is 425 00:22:44,820 --> 00:22:47,210 Jay Gillotti: if he hadn't made the movie when he made it, 426 00:22:47,260 --> 00:22:49,859 Jay Gillotti: would we even be here talking about the Gulf cars? 427 00:22:49,859 --> 00:22:52,409 Jay Gillotti: I don't know. I can't answer that question, but it's 428 00:22:52,409 --> 00:22:54,310 Jay Gillotti: an interesting thought experiment. 429 00:22:54,310 --> 00:22:57,699 Robert Ross: You're talking about chief engineer John Horsman for the Wyer racing, 430 00:22:57,700 --> 00:23:00,590 Robert Ross: he was instrumental in informing your book, is that correct? 431 00:23:00,590 --> 00:23:03,879 Jay Gillotti: Yes. And we lost John this year, unfortunately. But I'm 432 00:23:03,879 --> 00:23:06,379 Jay Gillotti: so glad that I met him and had a little bit 433 00:23:06,379 --> 00:23:09,700 Jay Gillotti: of a relationship with him enough to consult with him. 434 00:23:09,830 --> 00:23:12,609 Jay Gillotti: We got him to allow us to scan all of 435 00:23:12,609 --> 00:23:15,760 Jay Gillotti: his period documents that he still had from that period. 436 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,429 Jay Gillotti: Many of those documents we present in the book. The 437 00:23:18,429 --> 00:23:22,639 Jay Gillotti: race data sheets are particularly interesting I think. What John 438 00:23:22,639 --> 00:23:24,830 Jay Gillotti: would do is when he came back from each race, 439 00:23:24,830 --> 00:23:27,990 Jay Gillotti: his handwritten notes would be typed up by his secretary 440 00:23:28,030 --> 00:23:30,580 Jay Gillotti: in a standard format that they had started using with 441 00:23:30,580 --> 00:23:34,090 Jay Gillotti: the GT40s. For each car at each race, there is 442 00:23:34,090 --> 00:23:38,139 Jay Gillotti: this two page onion skin like document. They were taped 443 00:23:38,139 --> 00:23:40,770 Jay Gillotti: together and they're in a loose- leaf notebook that John 444 00:23:40,770 --> 00:23:44,409 Jay Gillotti: had for all these years. And Halloween of 2017 actually 445 00:23:44,409 --> 00:23:47,129 Jay Gillotti: is when I'll never forget spending a couple of days 446 00:23:47,129 --> 00:23:49,379 Jay Gillotti: with John going through the first draft of the book 447 00:23:49,379 --> 00:23:52,109 Jay Gillotti: and all my questions. And then we went and scanned 448 00:23:52,250 --> 00:23:55,980 Jay Gillotti: all those documents very carefully untaping them, taking them out of 449 00:23:56,090 --> 00:23:59,300 Jay Gillotti: the notebook, and then scanning them and putting everything very 450 00:23:59,300 --> 00:24:02,450 Jay Gillotti: carefully back into the notebook. But it's great to share all 451 00:24:02,450 --> 00:24:05,409 Jay Gillotti: that information, especially for people who really want to geek out 452 00:24:05,409 --> 00:24:09,289 Jay Gillotti: on gear ratios, suspension settings. He makes note of the 453 00:24:09,290 --> 00:24:09,820 Jay Gillotti: weather. 454 00:24:09,879 --> 00:24:12,989 Robert Ross: That's fascinating. I love it. We're going to take a short break, 455 00:24:12,990 --> 00:24:14,050 Robert Ross: but we'll be right back. 456 00:24:17,060 --> 00:24:21,010 Speaker 5: Welcome to Life Done Better. Listen to the weekly episodes 457 00:24:21,010 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 5: where supermodel and health coach Jill de Jong talks to 458 00:24:24,439 --> 00:24:27,710 Speaker 5: some of the world's most inspiring women in health and 459 00:24:27,710 --> 00:24:32,519 Speaker 5: wellness. It's the place for all the unicorns who strive 460 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,060 Speaker 5: to create a life on their own terms. Join us 461 00:24:36,060 --> 00:24:41,060 Speaker 5: to explore, discover, and create a life done better together. 462 00:24:41,659 --> 00:24:46,630 Speaker 5: Listen and subscribe from CurtCo Media, media for your mind. 463 00:24:49,500 --> 00:24:53,200 Robert Ross: We're back with Jay Gillotti. Jay, of the interesting things 464 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,780 Robert Ross: about your book is that you obviously give a lot 465 00:24:55,780 --> 00:24:58,070 Robert Ross: of pages to the drivers. I know that a few 466 00:24:58,070 --> 00:25:00,609 Robert Ross: of these guys have become friends. Talk about some of 467 00:25:00,609 --> 00:25:02,929 Robert Ross: those stars that were actually driving these cars. 468 00:25:02,929 --> 00:25:05,409 Jay Gillotti: One of the perspectives I took on this book is 469 00:25:05,409 --> 00:25:09,159 Jay Gillotti: that people might not necessarily know a whole lot about 470 00:25:09,159 --> 00:25:12,609 Jay Gillotti: this period of history. Maybe they've seen the movie so 471 00:25:12,609 --> 00:25:15,260 Jay Gillotti: they're interested in the cars, but they don't maybe know 472 00:25:15,260 --> 00:25:17,570 Jay Gillotti: the history in great depth. Maybe they don't know a 473 00:25:17,570 --> 00:25:20,669 Jay Gillotti: whole lot about the drivers themselves. That's why I also 474 00:25:20,669 --> 00:25:24,210 Jay Gillotti: include a very brief introductory chapter on the early history 475 00:25:24,210 --> 00:25:27,820 Jay Gillotti: of Porsche, because people might not be Porsche aficionados, but 476 00:25:27,820 --> 00:25:29,869 Jay Gillotti: they might think the cars are pretty cool. And that 477 00:25:29,869 --> 00:25:32,059 Jay Gillotti: way they can learn a little bit about where Porsche 478 00:25:32,060 --> 00:25:34,539 Jay Gillotti: came in its first 20 years. But the drivers who 479 00:25:34,540 --> 00:25:37,609 Jay Gillotti: are still with us, many of whom have become friends of 480 00:25:37,609 --> 00:25:39,919 Jay Gillotti: mine and helped a lot with the book would be 481 00:25:39,919 --> 00:25:43,240 Jay Gillotti: Brian Redman, Vic Elford, and Derek Bell. But we have 482 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,919 Jay Gillotti: a sidebar for each of the important drivers that did 483 00:25:46,919 --> 00:25:50,189 Jay Gillotti: multiple races with the Gulf team. So that includes also 484 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,240 Jay Gillotti: the great Jo Siffert and the great Pedro Rodriguez who 485 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,040 Jay Gillotti: were the number one drivers and who were two of 486 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,389 Jay Gillotti: the top drivers of that era, both in sports cars 487 00:25:59,389 --> 00:26:03,709 Jay Gillotti: and Formula 1. Both very charismatic individuals. There was a 488 00:26:03,710 --> 00:26:07,300 Jay Gillotti: tremendous rivalry, at least on the track between Siffert and 489 00:26:07,300 --> 00:26:10,729 Jay Gillotti: Rodriguez. They famously hit each other at the start of the 490 00:26:10,730 --> 00:26:13,639 Jay Gillotti: race at Spa in 1970. There's quite a bit of 491 00:26:13,639 --> 00:26:16,470 Jay Gillotti: video of that. So it was pretty intense rivalry. They 492 00:26:16,470 --> 00:26:19,100 Jay Gillotti: both thought they were the best driver and were out 493 00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:22,399 Jay Gillotti: to prove it. And they were both very successful. Pedro 494 00:26:22,399 --> 00:26:25,320 Jay Gillotti: Rodriguez was a little more successful in the Gulf cars 495 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,800 Jay Gillotti: as it turned out, but they made for an exciting 496 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,519 Jay Gillotti: pair. I don't know how John Wyer, he tried to 497 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,139 Jay Gillotti: manage them, but I'm not sure he was tremendously successful. And 498 00:26:34,460 --> 00:26:36,169 Jay Gillotti: I think once they got out on the track, they 499 00:26:36,169 --> 00:26:37,389 Jay Gillotti: kind of did their own thing. 500 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:38,580 Robert Ross: They were unmanageable at that point. 501 00:26:39,379 --> 00:26:43,040 Jay Gillotti: Pedro Rodriguez, by most accounts, he was the more calculating 502 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:47,369 Jay Gillotti: driver. He was the more naturally strategic driver who would 503 00:26:47,369 --> 00:26:50,710 Jay Gillotti: wait and look for his opportunity, not overstress the car. 504 00:26:50,710 --> 00:26:53,649 Jay Gillotti: Because remember this is endurance racing we're talking about, we're 505 00:26:53,649 --> 00:26:57,320 Jay Gillotti: not talking about sprint racing. Siffert was more of the charger 506 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,580 Jay Gillotti: as Brian Redman would say. So Siffert pretty much only 507 00:27:00,580 --> 00:27:02,810 Jay Gillotti: knew one way to go. And that was as fast as 508 00:27:02,810 --> 00:27:07,659 Jay Gillotti: possible. And that unfortunately cost them the race at Le Mans in 1970, 509 00:27:07,659 --> 00:27:10,040 Jay Gillotti: which turned out to be Porsche's first win at Le 510 00:27:10,399 --> 00:27:13,220 Jay Gillotti: Mans. Really should have gone to the Gulf team of 511 00:27:13,220 --> 00:27:16,169 Jay Gillotti: Siffert and Redmond. But didn't because Siffert missed a gear 512 00:27:16,169 --> 00:27:19,460 Jay Gillotti: and blew the engine, which was the 917's Achilles heel. 513 00:27:19,460 --> 00:27:23,129 Jay Gillotti: Like all great heroes, our 917s have an Achilles heel 514 00:27:23,129 --> 00:27:26,649 Jay Gillotti: that you have to watch out for. And unfortunately that cost Siffert and 515 00:27:26,649 --> 00:27:28,210 Jay Gillotti: Redmond the race in '70. 516 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,100 Robert Ross: That engine was obviously a layout that had not been 517 00:27:31,100 --> 00:27:34,740 Robert Ross: explored by Porsche until that time. So Mezger designed essentially 518 00:27:34,740 --> 00:27:37,000 Robert Ross: a flat 12. Is that right? I mean, that was 519 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:38,490 Robert Ross: quite a complicated power plant. 520 00:27:38,580 --> 00:27:40,459 Jay Gillotti: I'm glad you brought that up because we need to 521 00:27:40,460 --> 00:27:44,650 Jay Gillotti: give great credit to Hans Mezger who was Porsche's engine 522 00:27:44,699 --> 00:27:49,070 Jay Gillotti: genius for many, many years and participated in or designed 523 00:27:49,070 --> 00:27:52,819 Jay Gillotti: many of Porsche's great engine. The 917 certainly one of 524 00:27:52,820 --> 00:27:55,649 Jay Gillotti: those, when you think about it. The layout is similar 525 00:27:55,649 --> 00:27:58,889 Jay Gillotti: to a flat eight 908, what with four more cylinders. 526 00:27:58,939 --> 00:28:01,769 Jay Gillotti: The main difference is the power takeoff is from the 527 00:28:01,770 --> 00:28:04,219 Jay Gillotti: center of the crank through a system of gears that 528 00:28:04,260 --> 00:28:07,129 Jay Gillotti: goes down to a prop shaft basically. And that was 529 00:28:07,129 --> 00:28:09,600 Jay Gillotti: done to minimize vibration. So they used a lot of 530 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,590 Jay Gillotti: the dimensions and even some of the exact dimensions of 531 00:28:12,590 --> 00:28:15,980 Jay Gillotti: the 908 engine, but just made it four cylinders bigger, 532 00:28:16,030 --> 00:28:18,689 Jay Gillotti: took the power off the center of the crank. The 533 00:28:18,689 --> 00:28:21,419 Jay Gillotti: most amazing thing to me about it is they ordered 534 00:28:21,419 --> 00:28:25,419 Jay Gillotti: the parts for all 25 engines without ever building a prototype. 535 00:28:25,419 --> 00:28:28,600 Robert Ross: Talk about a leap of faith and some confidence in their own engineering. 536 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,469 Jay Gillotti: And it worked. First time on the Dino, it made 537 00:28:31,470 --> 00:28:36,419 Jay Gillotti: something like 540 horsepower, more horsepower than any previous Porsche 538 00:28:36,419 --> 00:28:39,170 Jay Gillotti: engine and was the first Porsche engine to make more 539 00:28:39,170 --> 00:28:42,590 Jay Gillotti: horsepower than its weight. And then pretty soon with the little 540 00:28:42,590 --> 00:28:45,360 Jay Gillotti: development and tuning, they got it up to something like 541 00:28:45,370 --> 00:28:48,959 Jay Gillotti: 580 horsepower from the four and a half liter version 542 00:28:48,959 --> 00:28:51,719 Jay Gillotti: that they race in '69. One other thing that's fun 543 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,140 Jay Gillotti: about that engine is unlike many of our other Porsche 544 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,970 Jay Gillotti: flat engines, or flat six 911s, the 917 is not 545 00:28:58,970 --> 00:29:03,150 Jay Gillotti: a boxer. The opposing cylinders do not box. They move 546 00:29:03,150 --> 00:29:06,640 Jay Gillotti: in the same direction. So that's why we argue about 547 00:29:06,650 --> 00:29:09,340 Jay Gillotti: this endlessly, but most of us refer to it as 548 00:29:09,350 --> 00:29:12,979 Jay Gillotti: 180 degree V12 because the opposing cylinders move in the 549 00:29:12,980 --> 00:29:15,920 Jay Gillotti: same direction. That's a fun argument in the Facebook group 550 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:16,569 Jay Gillotti: that we have. 551 00:29:16,570 --> 00:29:16,950 Robert Ross: Tell us a little bit about that. 552 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,400 Jay Gillotti: Well, the primary group on Facebook is called 917 The 553 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,820 Jay Gillotti: Legend, and I've been participating in it now for, I 554 00:29:24,820 --> 00:29:28,470 Jay Gillotti: think almost 10 years. And it's grown to an amazing 555 00:29:28,470 --> 00:29:33,810 Jay Gillotti: number of members. It's up to 15,600 members, which is 556 00:29:33,810 --> 00:29:38,040 Jay Gillotti: to me mind boggling. But it shows the tremendous enthusiasm 557 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,130 Jay Gillotti: that's out there around the world, literally around the world 558 00:29:41,130 --> 00:29:44,590 Jay Gillotti: for the 917. The two GTO groups combined I think 559 00:29:44,590 --> 00:29:49,120 Jay Gillotti: have about 6, 000 members, and we're sitting at 15, 600 for 560 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,930 Jay Gillotti: 917 the legend. So that's pretty cool. And the other 561 00:29:51,930 --> 00:29:54,610 Jay Gillotti: really cool thing about the group is we are still 562 00:29:54,610 --> 00:29:58,470 Jay Gillotti: to this day turning up photos that have never been 563 00:29:58,470 --> 00:29:59,479 Jay Gillotti: seen before. 564 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:00,070 Robert Ross: Isn't that great? 565 00:30:00,450 --> 00:30:03,779 Jay Gillotti: These amazing old photos, many of them are just snapshots 566 00:30:03,780 --> 00:30:06,570 Jay Gillotti: or whatever that have been digitized and show up in the 567 00:30:06,570 --> 00:30:10,170 Jay Gillotti: group. And we have some really lively column discussions. 568 00:30:10,570 --> 00:30:12,810 Robert Ross: I'll bet you have some characters. There's always a few. 569 00:30:12,900 --> 00:30:16,420 Jay Gillotti: We have some unresolved chassis renumbering issues with a few 570 00:30:16,420 --> 00:30:20,180 Jay Gillotti: of the 917s. So that becomes a very lively discussion 571 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,890 Jay Gillotti: occasionally. It's fun though. We try to keep it fun 572 00:30:22,890 --> 00:30:23,560 Jay Gillotti: and friendly. 573 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,600 Robert Ross: Boy, it really is fun to get into the weeds. 574 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,219 Robert Ross: And again, I mean your book does that in a 575 00:30:27,220 --> 00:30:30,420 Robert Ross: fascinating way. Just being able to read the history of every 576 00:30:30,420 --> 00:30:31,910 Robert Ross: one of those 14 chassis. 577 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,410 Jay Gillotti: They've all had interesting lives. It's so interesting to me. 578 00:30:35,410 --> 00:30:38,730 Jay Gillotti: I thought people might appreciate hearing the lives of what 579 00:30:38,730 --> 00:30:42,400 Jay Gillotti: happened to these individual cars over the last almost 50 580 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,880 Jay Gillotti: years when we finished writing. Because at the end of 581 00:30:44,890 --> 00:30:48,060 Jay Gillotti: 1971, all of these cars were obsolete. Some of them 582 00:30:48,060 --> 00:30:49,700 Jay Gillotti: were sort of left for dead. 583 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,320 Robert Ross: These things weren't just old used cars once their racing 584 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,989 Robert Ross: careers were over. And I guess one of their drivers 585 00:30:54,990 --> 00:30:58,130 Robert Ross: was able to actually acquire one. Jo Siffert got a 586 00:30:58,130 --> 00:31:02,910 Robert Ross: 917. And that 917 of course resurfaced after a long spell in 587 00:31:02,910 --> 00:31:05,120 Robert Ross: a barn. And it came to auction. 588 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,100 Jay Gillotti: That's chassis 24. A lot of us refer to it 589 00:31:08,100 --> 00:31:11,860 Jay Gillotti: as 24-2 because it's really the second car to carry 590 00:31:11,860 --> 00:31:15,080 Jay Gillotti: the chassis number 024. But it was sold to Siffert 591 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,700 Jay Gillotti: and he leased it to Solar Productions for the filming 592 00:31:18,810 --> 00:31:20,120 Jay Gillotti: of the Le Mans movie. 593 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:21,480 Robert Ross: That's the star car of the movie. 594 00:31:21,550 --> 00:31:23,480 Jay Gillotti: Well, it's one of them because the other one is 595 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,420 Jay Gillotti: chassis 22, which was actually owned by Solar and is 596 00:31:27,420 --> 00:31:31,770 Jay Gillotti: mainly driven by Steve McQueen in the stage sequences that 597 00:31:31,770 --> 00:31:33,920 Jay Gillotti: were filmed for the movie. So the two cars are 598 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,710 Jay Gillotti: both stars. Siffert's car then, the sad moment came when 599 00:31:37,850 --> 00:31:41,480 Jay Gillotti: it appeared in his funeral in 1971. Siffert and Rodriguez were 600 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,640 Jay Gillotti: both killed in 1971. That's the sad part of my 601 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,160 Jay Gillotti: story is both of my number one drivers didn't survive. 602 00:31:48,170 --> 00:31:51,620 Jay Gillotti: Siffert was killed in a Formula 1 accident and Rodriguez 603 00:31:51,620 --> 00:31:54,340 Jay Gillotti: was killed in a Ferrari, in a sports car race. 604 00:31:54,340 --> 00:31:55,911 Robert Ross: It was a dangerous job back then, those guys were daredevils. 605 00:31:55,911 --> 00:32:02,029 Jay Gillotti: Siffert's car appeared in the funeral procession. 50, 000 people in 606 00:32:02,030 --> 00:32:05,440 Jay Gillotti: Fribourg, Switzerland turned out for his funeral and they had the 607 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,310 Jay Gillotti: big black piece of cloth across the car, but then 608 00:32:08,310 --> 00:32:10,410 Jay Gillotti: the car was sold and it was gone. It was 609 00:32:10,410 --> 00:32:13,039 Jay Gillotti: lost for the better part of 25 years. It was 610 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,769 Jay Gillotti: stored in a barn near Paris, I think in France. 611 00:32:15,770 --> 00:32:19,469 Jay Gillotti: And then eventually it was discovered and restored. And then 612 00:32:19,469 --> 00:32:21,489 Jay Gillotti: that's the car that sold at the Gooding auction a 613 00:32:21,490 --> 00:32:22,410 Jay Gillotti: few years ago. 614 00:32:22,420 --> 00:32:25,330 Robert Ross: 2017. I was all over that thing. And of course 615 00:32:25,330 --> 00:32:27,070 Robert Ross: the closest I'll ever get to owning one is a 616 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:31,150 Robert Ross: 32nd scale model, but it was a remarkable thing to see. 617 00:32:31,310 --> 00:32:32,680 Robert Ross: And of course the big secret is that it was in The 618 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,410 Robert Ross: Brumos Collection, and it's on display there now. 619 00:32:36,459 --> 00:32:39,830 Jay Gillotti: It's definitely a piece of history. It never actually raced. 620 00:32:39,830 --> 00:32:41,540 Robert Ross: Probably why it's still in one piece. 621 00:32:42,230 --> 00:32:47,190 Jay Gillotti: Yeah. Yeah. And again, all he did individual chassis have led rather 622 00:32:47,190 --> 00:32:51,620 Jay Gillotti: interesting lives since the end of 1971. Several of them 623 00:32:51,620 --> 00:32:53,930 Jay Gillotti: were actually had their roofs cut off and they were 624 00:32:53,930 --> 00:32:57,920 Jay Gillotti: converted to spiders for inter serie racing in Europe. They've all now 625 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,360 Jay Gillotti: been restored back to coupes because they're more valuable that 626 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,959 Jay Gillotti: way. Some people are not happy about that part of 627 00:33:03,959 --> 00:33:06,800 Jay Gillotti: it, but they're all back in Gulf colors now and 628 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:11,030 Jay Gillotti: restored to coupe form. Nobody was ever thinking 50 years 629 00:33:11,030 --> 00:33:13,270 Jay Gillotti: ahead of how are the historians going to know what 630 00:33:13,270 --> 00:33:15,440 Jay Gillotti: we did with these cars? They had no way of 631 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,390 Jay Gillotti: knowing how valuable they were going to be. 632 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,200 Robert Ross: Your book does serve to bring things up to the 633 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,049 Robert Ross: current state and will be regarded as a reference tool going 634 00:33:24,050 --> 00:33:27,420 Robert Ross: forward to actually support the provenance of each one of 635 00:33:27,420 --> 00:33:30,330 Robert Ross: these important automobiles. And not to put too fine a 636 00:33:30,330 --> 00:33:33,790 Robert Ross: point on it, these were important automobiles because the Siffert 637 00:33:33,790 --> 00:33:36,840 Robert Ross: car that sold at Gooding in 2017 sold for $ 14 638 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,390 Robert Ross: million. That's not chump change. And clearly I think it 639 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,880 Robert Ross: indicates the significance of these cars not just to a 640 00:33:44,030 --> 00:33:46,680 Robert Ross: coterie of collectors who could afford them, but in the 641 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,090 Robert Ross: whole fabric of Motorsport. That's a rare race car that achieves 642 00:33:50,090 --> 00:33:51,530 Robert Ross: that kind of valuation. 643 00:33:51,810 --> 00:33:55,270 Jay Gillotti: They're not the rarest of Porsche racing cars because Porsche 644 00:33:55,270 --> 00:33:57,580 Jay Gillotti: did build quite a number of them. But because of 645 00:33:57,580 --> 00:33:59,780 Jay Gillotti: their appeal, I don't think I'm out on too much 646 00:33:59,780 --> 00:34:01,670 Jay Gillotti: of a limb to say that the best of the 647 00:34:01,670 --> 00:34:05,499 Jay Gillotti: 917s are the most valuable of any Porsches in the 648 00:34:05,500 --> 00:34:08,239 Jay Gillotti: world. We don't know exactly how valuable the best of 649 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,219 Jay Gillotti: the best are because they don't sell publicly. So we 650 00:34:11,219 --> 00:34:13,899 Jay Gillotti: don't know exactly how much they're worth. A few of 651 00:34:13,900 --> 00:34:17,290 Jay Gillotti: them that have really super race histories have been in 652 00:34:17,339 --> 00:34:19,430 Jay Gillotti: the same hands for a long, long time. So we 653 00:34:19,430 --> 00:34:21,960 Jay Gillotti: don't really have an idea of how they would compare 654 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,630 Jay Gillotti: with say Ferrari GTO money or whatever. But they're up 655 00:34:25,630 --> 00:34:28,550 Jay Gillotti: there for sure. I don't particularly love the word icon. 656 00:34:28,620 --> 00:34:31,069 Jay Gillotti: But if there's a good use of the word icon, 657 00:34:31,069 --> 00:34:33,839 Jay Gillotti: I think our Gulf 917s are right there. 658 00:34:33,900 --> 00:34:36,640 Robert Ross: No argument at all. Well, we're going to take a 659 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,400 Robert Ross: quick break, but we'll be right back. 660 00:34:41,259 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 6: A moment of your time. A new podcast from CurtCo Media. 661 00:34:45,759 --> 00:34:47,950 Speaker 7: Currently 21 years old. And today- 662 00:34:47,950 --> 00:34:50,571 Speaker 8: I felt like magic descended from her fingertips down to the base- 663 00:34:50,571 --> 00:34:51,011 Speaker 9: You have to take care of yourself because the world needs you and your- 664 00:34:51,011 --> 00:34:56,330 Speaker 10: Trust me. Every do gooder that asked about me was 665 00:34:56,330 --> 00:34:57,290 Speaker 10: ready to spit on my dream. 666 00:34:57,630 --> 00:34:59,190 Speaker 11: Fingers were facing me. 667 00:34:59,190 --> 00:35:01,971 Speaker 12: You feel like your purpose and your worth is really being- 668 00:35:01,971 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 11: You're going to stop me from playing the piano. 669 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 13: She buys walkie talkies, wonders to whom she should give 670 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:07,430 Speaker 13: the second- 671 00:35:07,830 --> 00:35:10,630 Speaker 14: Pets don't love humans. We never did. We never will, 672 00:35:10,630 --> 00:35:11,270 Speaker 14: we just find- 673 00:35:11,270 --> 00:35:14,299 Speaker 15: The beauty of rock climbing is that you can only focus 674 00:35:14,299 --> 00:35:14,841 Speaker 15: on what's right- 675 00:35:14,841 --> 00:35:18,270 Speaker 16: And so, our American life begins. 676 00:35:19,299 --> 00:35:22,569 Speaker 6: We may need to stay apart, but let's create, together. 677 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,970 Speaker 6: Available on all podcast platforms. Submit your piece at curtco.com/ amomentofyourtime. 678 00:35:32,450 --> 00:35:35,419 Robert Ross: Welcome back to Cars That Matter. Let's talk about the 679 00:35:35,549 --> 00:35:38,300 Robert Ross: book itself as a want to be writer. I think 680 00:35:38,310 --> 00:35:40,819 Robert Ross: I understand what it would take if I could become 681 00:35:40,819 --> 00:35:43,420 Robert Ross: a good writer. And clearly I've seen that in your 682 00:35:43,420 --> 00:35:45,210 Robert Ross: book. Is it a fair question to ask how long 683 00:35:45,210 --> 00:35:47,839 Robert Ross: it takes to actually complete a book? Can you take 684 00:35:47,839 --> 00:35:48,930 Robert Ross: us through that process? 685 00:35:49,009 --> 00:35:52,799 Jay Gillotti: I'm not sure if my answer is representative of most 686 00:35:52,799 --> 00:35:56,219 Jay Gillotti: books in the automotive space. It might be. In my 687 00:35:56,219 --> 00:35:59,739 Jay Gillotti: case, you could argue it's a 40 year process because 688 00:35:59,739 --> 00:36:02,700 Jay Gillotti: I started collecting the information when I was in high 689 00:36:02,700 --> 00:36:05,230 Jay Gillotti: school or certainly in college. When I was a freshman 690 00:36:05,230 --> 00:36:08,120 Jay Gillotti: in college, I bought my copy of John Wyer's book 691 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,439 Jay Gillotti: called The Certain Sound. So that's way back in 1982. 692 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,680 Jay Gillotti: The book had come out I think in 1981. 693 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,341 Robert Ross: I'll bet you still have it. 694 00:36:15,341 --> 00:36:17,270 Jay Gillotti: Yeah, I still have it. And now I'm glad I have it because if 695 00:36:17,270 --> 00:36:20,299 Jay Gillotti: you go on eBay, you're looking at 350 bucks for 696 00:36:20,299 --> 00:36:23,169 Jay Gillotti: a copy of that particular book. It's funny, the cars 697 00:36:23,170 --> 00:36:25,109 Jay Gillotti: have gone up in value, but even some of the 698 00:36:25,110 --> 00:36:28,160 Jay Gillotti: things like books and posters have gone up tremendously in 699 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,279 Jay Gillotti: value as well. But in the early 1990s, I had 700 00:36:31,279 --> 00:36:33,790 Jay Gillotti: a little bit of an epiphany where you have certain 701 00:36:33,790 --> 00:36:36,819 Jay Gillotti: car guys who can just quote you facts and figures 702 00:36:36,819 --> 00:36:39,410 Jay Gillotti: and just, they can carry all the information in their 703 00:36:39,410 --> 00:36:43,020 Jay Gillotti: head about every Porsche ever built, or every BMW, or 704 00:36:43,020 --> 00:36:45,960 Jay Gillotti: every Ferrari or whatever. And I just realized I wasn't 705 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,189 Jay Gillotti: going to be that guy. So I said, well what 706 00:36:48,190 --> 00:36:50,790 Jay Gillotti: can I do? Maybe I can focus on one car 707 00:36:50,839 --> 00:36:54,160 Jay Gillotti: and really try to develop my expertise in one particular 708 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,939 Jay Gillotti: car. And I said well, the 917 is my favorite. 709 00:36:56,940 --> 00:37:00,439 Jay Gillotti: So I'll concentrate on that. Since the early '90s, I 710 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,810 Jay Gillotti: really tried to collect every shred of information that I 711 00:37:03,810 --> 00:37:06,960 Jay Gillotti: could find. From a writing perspective, I did a fair 712 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,170 Jay Gillotti: amount of writing in the corporate world. When I joined 713 00:37:09,170 --> 00:37:12,400 Jay Gillotti: the Porsche Club in 2009, I started writing for our 714 00:37:12,450 --> 00:37:16,029 Jay Gillotti: region newsletter here in the Pacific Northwest region called The 715 00:37:16,029 --> 00:37:19,509 Jay Gillotti: Spiel. And I did over 40 feature articles for The 716 00:37:19,509 --> 00:37:21,940 Jay Gillotti: Spiel before I sat down to do the book. So 717 00:37:21,940 --> 00:37:24,110 Jay Gillotti: I'd had quite a bit of practice with that kind 718 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,240 Jay Gillotti: of writing. So when I actually did sit down to 719 00:37:27,299 --> 00:37:30,839 Jay Gillotti: write the book on January 3rd of 2017, I had 720 00:37:30,839 --> 00:37:33,759 Jay Gillotti: a lot of information and a lot of experience going for 721 00:37:33,759 --> 00:37:36,549 Jay Gillotti: me. So I think the writing of the first draft 722 00:37:36,549 --> 00:37:40,279 Jay Gillotti: and then completing the book actually went pretty fast just 723 00:37:40,279 --> 00:37:42,560 Jay Gillotti: because of all the prep work. I know there are 724 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,420 Jay Gillotti: other projects in the automotive book space that go faster. 725 00:37:46,420 --> 00:37:48,579 Jay Gillotti: And I know there are a lot that take much, 726 00:37:48,580 --> 00:37:50,989 Jay Gillotti: much longer than what we took on this book. 727 00:37:51,020 --> 00:37:53,129 Robert Ross: It sounds like you were able to take many, many 728 00:37:53,130 --> 00:37:57,650 Robert Ross: decades of experience and study and all of a sudden bring it to life within a 729 00:37:57,650 --> 00:37:58,501 Robert Ross: pretty short period of time. 730 00:37:58,500 --> 00:38:01,249 Jay Gillotti: The other advantage was I had a vision in my 731 00:38:01,250 --> 00:38:04,950 Jay Gillotti: head. My other hobby is music recorded, a number of 732 00:38:04,950 --> 00:38:08,169 Jay Gillotti: albums of my original songs that I've written. When you 733 00:38:08,170 --> 00:38:10,000 Jay Gillotti: go to make an album, you sort of have to 734 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:11,989 Jay Gillotti: have an idea of what you want the finished product 735 00:38:11,989 --> 00:38:14,469 Jay Gillotti: to be. And with the book, it was very much 736 00:38:14,469 --> 00:38:17,189 Jay Gillotti: the same thing. I had a pretty clear idea of 737 00:38:17,190 --> 00:38:19,739 Jay Gillotti: what I wanted the finished product to be. I knew 738 00:38:19,739 --> 00:38:22,210 Jay Gillotti: the structure. I knew I wanted it to be chassis 739 00:38:22,210 --> 00:38:25,130 Jay Gillotti: by chassis, race by race. So it was already pretty 740 00:38:25,130 --> 00:38:27,739 Jay Gillotti: well organized in my head. And it was just a matter 741 00:38:27,739 --> 00:38:30,950 Jay Gillotti: of then pulling all the information together into some kind 742 00:38:30,950 --> 00:38:33,620 Jay Gillotti: of a sensible narrative. And I also knew that I 743 00:38:33,620 --> 00:38:37,189 Jay Gillotti: wanted to try to thread needle between being a reference 744 00:38:37,190 --> 00:38:39,839 Jay Gillotti: book and a story book. In the world of car 745 00:38:39,839 --> 00:38:43,310 Jay Gillotti: books, some books are really, really great reference books. And 746 00:38:43,310 --> 00:38:47,129 Jay Gillotti: the authors are really concerned about getting all the information 747 00:38:47,130 --> 00:38:48,669 Jay Gillotti: in there for posterity. 748 00:38:48,739 --> 00:38:50,520 Robert Ross: But boy, they can be as dry as a piece of 749 00:38:50,799 --> 00:38:53,330 Robert Ross: Melba toast. I mean, you need something to wash it down. 750 00:38:53,370 --> 00:38:56,890 Jay Gillotti: Exactly. And then there are a great story books that 751 00:38:56,890 --> 00:39:00,450 Jay Gillotti: are written about cars and automotive history, that you can't really 752 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,839 Jay Gillotti: necessarily use as reference books at all. So I tried 753 00:39:03,839 --> 00:39:06,900 Jay Gillotti: to go down the middle between those two and produce 754 00:39:06,900 --> 00:39:09,580 Jay Gillotti: something with a lot of good reference material. Some of 755 00:39:09,580 --> 00:39:12,560 Jay Gillotti: which had not been seen before, had not been published 756 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,009 Jay Gillotti: before. But I was hoping people would actually read the 757 00:39:15,009 --> 00:39:17,569 Jay Gillotti: book. So I tried to also make it readable the 758 00:39:17,569 --> 00:39:20,440 Jay Gillotti: way it flows from one car to the next and 759 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,239 Jay Gillotti: within a certain chapter, how it goes from one race 760 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,609 Jay Gillotti: to the next. My advice to people who buy the 761 00:39:25,609 --> 00:39:28,390 Jay Gillotti: book is don't read more than one chapter at a 762 00:39:28,390 --> 00:39:31,049 Jay Gillotti: time, because there's a lot of information there. And if 763 00:39:31,049 --> 00:39:33,339 Jay Gillotti: you want to just read one race at a time 764 00:39:33,339 --> 00:39:35,459 Jay Gillotti: for that particular car, that's not a bad way to 765 00:39:35,460 --> 00:39:35,681 Jay Gillotti: do it either. 766 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,069 Robert Ross: Can you tell us a couple of discoveries you made as 767 00:39:39,069 --> 00:39:41,609 Robert Ross: you were writing the book? Was there some stone you turned 768 00:39:41,609 --> 00:39:43,770 Robert Ross: over and all of a sudden oh my gosh, look 769 00:39:43,770 --> 00:39:44,890 Robert Ross: at what's under this. 770 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,589 Jay Gillotti: Yeah, there were a few. I didn't think that I 771 00:39:47,589 --> 00:39:51,000 Jay Gillotti: was necessarily the greatest networker in the world, but I 772 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:55,940 Jay Gillotti: had some success networking amongst the owners, and their representatives, 773 00:39:55,989 --> 00:39:59,390 Jay Gillotti: and previous owners of the car. Another person that we 774 00:39:59,390 --> 00:40:02,379 Jay Gillotti: lost this year unfortunately, is a guy by the name 775 00:40:02,380 --> 00:40:05,729 Jay Gillotti: of (John Thomas) , who was a great friend and co- 776 00:40:05,730 --> 00:40:09,609 Jay Gillotti: driver, and wing man for Otis Chandler. And Otis Chandler 777 00:40:09,609 --> 00:40:12,299 Jay Gillotti: of course, was the owner of the Los Angeles Times 778 00:40:12,319 --> 00:40:16,569 Jay Gillotti: and owned one of my cars, the chassis 17- 004. He 779 00:40:16,569 --> 00:40:18,910 Jay Gillotti: owned it for many years, but he couldn't really fit 780 00:40:18,910 --> 00:40:20,469 Jay Gillotti: in it because he was too tall. 781 00:40:20,540 --> 00:40:21,550 Robert Ross: He was a big guy, yeah. 782 00:40:21,930 --> 00:40:25,669 Jay Gillotti: His friend and his car guy adopted brother John Thomas 783 00:40:25,670 --> 00:40:27,980 Jay Gillotti: is the guy who really drove it most often when 784 00:40:27,980 --> 00:40:31,040 Jay Gillotti: they would either go vintage racing or just go play 785 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,719 Jay Gillotti: with the cars for fun. And John was very enthusiastic 786 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,390 Jay Gillotti: about the book. He loved that car, and he would 787 00:40:37,390 --> 00:40:39,149 Jay Gillotti: just go on and on about how much he loved 788 00:40:39,150 --> 00:40:41,850 Jay Gillotti: it, how much he loved driving it. That particular car 789 00:40:41,850 --> 00:40:46,330 Jay Gillotti: has an unusual tail, unusual looking tail with unusual rear 790 00:40:46,330 --> 00:40:49,950 Jay Gillotti: wheel arches. In our Facebook group, we had been speculating 791 00:40:49,950 --> 00:40:52,609 Jay Gillotti: for years and years, trying to figure out where did 792 00:40:52,609 --> 00:40:54,660 Jay Gillotti: this tale come from? Why does it look so strange, 793 00:40:54,660 --> 00:40:57,769 Jay Gillotti: etc., etc. I managed to solve that one by talking 794 00:40:57,770 --> 00:41:00,819 Jay Gillotti: with John Thomas directly because he had really been in 795 00:41:00,819 --> 00:41:03,489 Jay Gillotti: charge of looking after the car for all those years 796 00:41:03,489 --> 00:41:05,930 Jay Gillotti: that Otis owned it. So we were able to explain 797 00:41:05,930 --> 00:41:08,979 Jay Gillotti: that one. Another one is the two cars that were 798 00:41:08,980 --> 00:41:13,480 Jay Gillotti: purchased by Gerry Sutterfield directly from Porsche in 1975. One 799 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,589 Jay Gillotti: of which is the car that ended up with Otis 800 00:41:15,589 --> 00:41:19,190 Jay Gillotti: Chandler, but the other one is chassis 16. That particular 801 00:41:19,190 --> 00:41:22,180 Jay Gillotti: car, there was a little mystery around how much work 802 00:41:22,180 --> 00:41:25,350 Jay Gillotti: had Porsche done on those cars before they were sold. 803 00:41:25,350 --> 00:41:29,060 Jay Gillotti: And so actually having the honor of being allowed to 804 00:41:29,060 --> 00:41:32,350 Jay Gillotti: use Gerry Sutterfield's photo of the two cars when they 805 00:41:32,350 --> 00:41:36,299 Jay Gillotti: first came from Porsche really solved all those mysteries about 806 00:41:36,299 --> 00:41:39,469 Jay Gillotti: the fact that Porsche essentially did nothing to them cosmetically. 807 00:41:39,469 --> 00:41:43,360 Jay Gillotti: Porsche just got them rebuilt mechanically and got them running. 808 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:48,020 Jay Gillotti: But cosmetically, they still had their 1971 paint jobs. Chassis 809 00:41:48,029 --> 00:41:51,330 Jay Gillotti: 16 still had the orange roof paint scheme on it 810 00:41:51,330 --> 00:41:54,969 Jay Gillotti: from 1971 at Watkins Glen, where it had that livery. 811 00:41:55,020 --> 00:41:56,830 Jay Gillotti: And of course in the case of the car that 812 00:41:56,830 --> 00:41:58,899 Jay Gillotti: went to Otis Chandler, where you can see that it 813 00:41:58,900 --> 00:42:02,850 Jay Gillotti: did not have those strange rear wheel arches that later 814 00:42:02,850 --> 00:42:05,390 Jay Gillotti: appear and still up here on the car. So that 815 00:42:05,390 --> 00:42:07,830 Jay Gillotti: kind of stuff was really fun. I liked the detective 816 00:42:07,830 --> 00:42:10,690 Jay Gillotti: work, even though there wasn't that much detective work to 817 00:42:10,690 --> 00:42:13,629 Jay Gillotti: do because these cars are so well known. There wasn't 818 00:42:13,630 --> 00:42:16,529 Jay Gillotti: too much in the way of mystery to uncover or 819 00:42:16,529 --> 00:42:18,739 Jay Gillotti: sort out, but we uncovered and sorted out a few 820 00:42:18,739 --> 00:42:19,009 Jay Gillotti: of them. 821 00:42:19,089 --> 00:42:21,930 Robert Ross: The cars themselves would have been a whole heck of 822 00:42:21,930 --> 00:42:24,680 Robert Ross: a lot more well known if we'd all been able 823 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:26,799 Robert Ross: to go to Pebble Beach this year, because I know 824 00:42:26,799 --> 00:42:30,049 Robert Ross: that there was a special class. And you're instrumental in 825 00:42:30,049 --> 00:42:32,900 Robert Ross: organizing that. The good news is that it's going to 826 00:42:32,950 --> 00:42:35,980 Robert Ross: happen next year in 2021. Can you tell us about 827 00:42:35,980 --> 00:42:38,420 Robert Ross: what was planned at the Concours d'Elegance at Pebble Beach? 828 00:42:38,420 --> 00:42:41,319 Jay Gillotti: I wouldn't say that I was instrumental. I was one 829 00:42:41,319 --> 00:42:45,210 Jay Gillotti: person who did a little bit of lobbying and suggesting 830 00:42:45,210 --> 00:42:47,430 Jay Gillotti: gently that maybe this would be a great year to 831 00:42:47,430 --> 00:42:51,610 Jay Gillotti: celebrate the 917 at Pebble Beach because it's the 50th 832 00:42:51,670 --> 00:42:54,690 Jay Gillotti: anniversary of Porsche winning Le Mans for the first time. 833 00:42:54,750 --> 00:42:56,870 Jay Gillotti: And I thought it would be appropriate for Pebble Beach 834 00:42:56,870 --> 00:43:00,080 Jay Gillotti: to celebrate that kind of a milestone. And there's never 835 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,589 Jay Gillotti: been a class for the 917s at Pebble Beach before. 836 00:43:03,589 --> 00:43:05,580 Jay Gillotti: So I was one of the people kind of doing 837 00:43:05,580 --> 00:43:08,750 Jay Gillotti: a little bit of gentle suggesting and was very nice 838 00:43:08,750 --> 00:43:11,029 Jay Gillotti: of the folks at Pebble Beach to invite me to 839 00:43:11,029 --> 00:43:14,002 Jay Gillotti: be a part of the subcommittee along with (Ken Gross) 840 00:43:14,989 --> 00:43:17,120 Jay Gillotti: and (Paul Haggemann) to just sort of advise the selection 841 00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,180 Jay Gillotti: committee in the background about the history of the different 842 00:43:20,180 --> 00:43:23,540 Jay Gillotti: cars and which cars might be worth going the extra 843 00:43:23,540 --> 00:43:26,549 Jay Gillotti: mile to try to invite to be in the class. 844 00:43:26,670 --> 00:43:28,850 Jay Gillotti: Certainly if it had happened this year, I think it 845 00:43:28,850 --> 00:43:32,190 Jay Gillotti: would have been a very, very good display, very representative 846 00:43:32,190 --> 00:43:35,480 Jay Gillotti: display on the history of the cars. And hopefully knock 847 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:37,870 Jay Gillotti: wood if we can all be out there next August, 848 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,209 Jay Gillotti: it'll still be a good. And who knows, maybe it'll 849 00:43:40,210 --> 00:43:43,259 Jay Gillotti: be even a slightly better display. It's always a chance 850 00:43:43,259 --> 00:43:46,219 Jay Gillotti: that one or two cars that weren't available this year 851 00:43:46,219 --> 00:43:48,830 Jay Gillotti: might be available next year. We'll just have to wait 852 00:43:48,830 --> 00:43:51,719 Jay Gillotti: and see. But the 917 is a car that matters, 853 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,629 Jay Gillotti: and Pebble Beach is the greatest car show. So actually 854 00:43:54,629 --> 00:43:57,109 Jay Gillotti: when I was talking to Derek Bell for my book, 855 00:43:57,129 --> 00:44:00,390 Jay Gillotti: I had this crazy idea about bringing the 917s to 856 00:44:00,390 --> 00:44:02,809 Jay Gillotti: Pebble Beach. And I asked Derek about it because he's 857 00:44:02,810 --> 00:44:05,410 Jay Gillotti: been involved with Pebble Beach a lot over the years. 858 00:44:05,460 --> 00:44:07,980 Jay Gillotti: And Derek sort of said, well, of course, we have 859 00:44:07,980 --> 00:44:10,250 Jay Gillotti: to have the greatest sports car at Pebble Beach. I 860 00:44:10,250 --> 00:44:12,379 Jay Gillotti: mean for him, it was like it's a no brainer. So 861 00:44:12,379 --> 00:44:13,121 Jay Gillotti: I was happy about that. 862 00:44:13,121 --> 00:44:15,879 Robert Ross: Well, there is much look forward to. And that'll be 863 00:44:15,879 --> 00:44:19,719 Robert Ross: a great opportunity to celebrate the 917 and your book 864 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:20,419 Robert Ross: as well. 865 00:44:20,420 --> 00:44:22,910 Jay Gillotti: We should mention that the other things that were planned 866 00:44:22,910 --> 00:44:26,309 Jay Gillotti: for Pebble Beach this year are pretty mind boggling. So 867 00:44:26,359 --> 00:44:28,319 Jay Gillotti: assuming it all comes together with a lot of the 868 00:44:28,319 --> 00:44:31,799 Jay Gillotti: same content for next year, it should be amazing event. 869 00:44:31,799 --> 00:44:34,160 Jay Gillotti: It always is an amazing event. But when you talk 870 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,001 Jay Gillotti: about gathering previous best of show winners and featuring (inaudible) 871 00:44:37,001 --> 00:44:40,859 Jay Gillotti: , those kinds of things will be I think equally 872 00:44:40,859 --> 00:44:44,849 Jay Gillotti: great, even though I'll probably be hovering over my 917s 873 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:45,669 Jay Gillotti: very closely. 874 00:44:45,879 --> 00:44:48,060 Robert Ross: I'll make sure to spend some serious time with you 875 00:44:48,060 --> 00:44:49,609 Robert Ross: there. And maybe we'll have a follow up to this 876 00:44:49,609 --> 00:44:52,040 Robert Ross: conversation. Jay, thanks so much for joining us. 877 00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:52,290 Jay Gillotti: Thank you. 878 00:44:53,609 --> 00:44:57,710 Robert Ross: Thanks to Jay Gillotti, the author of the book Gulf 917 for 879 00:44:57,710 --> 00:45:00,509 Robert Ross: joining us today on Cars That Matter. Come back next time 880 00:45:00,509 --> 00:45:02,960 Robert Ross: as we continue to talk about the passions that drive 881 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:18,109 Robert Ross: us and the passions we drive. This episode of Cars 882 00:45:18,109 --> 00:45:20,920 Robert Ross: That Matter was hosted by Robert Ross, produced by Chris 883 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,710 Robert Ross: Border, edited by Chris Porter. Sound engineering by Michael Kennedy. 884 00:45:24,900 --> 00:45:27,910 Robert Ross: Theme song by Celeste and Eric Dick. Additional music and 885 00:45:27,910 --> 00:45:31,299 Robert Ross: sound by Chris Porter. Please like, subscribe, and share this 886 00:45:31,299 --> 00:45:33,821 Robert Ross: podcast. I'm Robert Ross. And thanks for listening. 887 00:45:33,820 --> 00:45:40,899 Speaker 1: CurtCo. Media for your mind.