Jenny Curtis: From CurtCo Media. Welcome to another Stuck at Home Special
Jenny Curtis: of Hollywood Unscripted. I'm Jenny Curtis. And today our guest
Jenny Curtis: is an Oscar nominated, BAFTA winning, and now Emmy nominated
Jenny Curtis: screenwriter, playwright, and creator. Tony McNamara, it is so great
Jenny Curtis: to have you. Welcome.
Tony McNamara: Hi Jenny. It's a pleasure
Jenny Curtis: You're currently in Australia and it is first thing in the
Jenny Curtis: morning for you, isn't it?
Tony McNamara: It's 7: 00 AM. Yeah. So apologies if I'm slow to start.
Jenny Curtis: The specials are called Stuck at Home because obviously we're
Jenny Curtis: stuck in quarantine, we're stuck at home, and so we kind of start out
Jenny Curtis: with a check in of how has quarantine been for you?
Tony McNamara: I've been pretty lucky, really. I mean, we were making
Tony McNamara: the show in Italy, in London, and it all happened and then we kind of came
Tony McNamara: back to Australia. And we've been in Perth, Western Australia,
Tony McNamara: which hasn't had a case in 120 days.
Jenny Curtis: Oh, wow.
Tony McNamara: I had to quarantine twice, because each state in Australia,
Tony McNamara: you have to quarantine if you change state. I mean,
Tony McNamara: it's been fun. My kids like it because I'm around
Tony McNamara: all the time. But it's been ... I mean, Perth's good because there's no
Tony McNamara: cases. There's very little restrictions and ...
Jenny Curtis: It's pretty much the perfect place to quarantine.
Tony McNamara: Yeah. So in a way we came here for family reasons, but
Tony McNamara: we got sort of lucky in coronavirus ways.
Jenny Curtis: Yeah. So I want to jump back to the beginning
Jenny Curtis: of your storytelling. Am I correct in that you didn't
Jenny Curtis: actually start writing until you were in your twenties because
Jenny Curtis: you worked in finance?
Tony McNamara: Yeah. Worked is a strong term. Bumbled my way through.
Tony McNamara: Yeah. I didn't really start till I was 22 or 23 or something. Yeah. I worked
Tony McNamara: in finance in Australia and London for a bit, and
Tony McNamara: was incredibly bad at it, which didn't seem to harm my
Tony McNamara: career at all. But yeah, I did that for a
Tony McNamara: few years and then traveled around. Did an Australian thing
Tony McNamara: where you just go to Europe and do nothing for a
Tony McNamara: year, to rite a passage. And so I did that and in
Tony McNamara: that time, I was always sort of liked books was
Tony McNamara: my big thing when I was a kid, and then I
Tony McNamara: just saw a lot of plays in London and started to think maybe
Tony McNamara: I could do that, was how I sort of foolishly
Tony McNamara: got there.
Jenny Curtis: Did you then just write or did you take playwriting classes?
Tony McNamara: Well, I didn't really want to be a playwright. I kind of wanted
Tony McNamara: to be a novelist. And then I went and did
Tony McNamara: this one year course at school in Australia, and they
Tony McNamara: kind of had poetry or playwriting, and I didn't think
Tony McNamara: I could do poetry. So I begged them to let
Tony McNamara: me into playwriting, and as soon as I started writing scenes,
Tony McNamara: I instinctively sort of went, "Oh, this feels like me." I mean,
Tony McNamara: I did actually fail the course, but not because of the
Tony McNamara: playwriting. I can't really spell and I can't grammar, whatever
Tony McNamara: that means. I can't speak grammar, let alone write grammar. I
Tony McNamara: think playwriting, as soon as I started doing that, that's
Tony McNamara: what I wanted to do. From there I just started writing plays and I was
Tony McNamara: drifting in and out of finance and waiting tables and
Tony McNamara: becoming a chef.
Jenny Curtis: All of the things.
Tony McNamara: Debt collecting and just lots of weird jobs while I was writing
Tony McNamara: plays. Yeah.
Jenny Curtis: Did your first play get picked up by the Sydney
Jenny Curtis: Theater Company?
Tony McNamara: Yeah. Yeah, it did. I was lucky in that they have a
Tony McNamara: playwright, and I think I still have a playwright's conference, which is mostly
Tony McNamara: young playwrights. Everyone goes to Canberra and you spend three weeks drinking
Tony McNamara: heavily and really good people come and direct your workshop
Tony McNamara: of your play. And I was lucky because I got
Tony McNamara: Michael Gow who's one of our great playwrights. And he
Tony McNamara: took me under his wing and was really great, because even
Tony McNamara: though he directed the workshop, he's a great playwright. So he was
Tony McNamara: really instrumental in then getting it to Sydney Theater Company
Tony McNamara: and getting it on. So I was lucky that it's only
Tony McNamara: my first play and I was like 25.
Jenny Curtis: What was it about?
Tony McNamara: It was about a kid who's had these horrible sort of
Tony McNamara: hippy baby boomer parents who comes out of a mental
Tony McNamara: institution expecting them to be home but they've gone on holiday and left
Tony McNamara: him just notes and food around the house and inspiring
Tony McNamara: aphorisms. It's like a generation gap kind of comedy, I guess.
Jenny Curtis: Now did that also get you into film school?
Tony McNamara: Yeah, basically. Yeah. Because I haven't really written any screenplay
Tony McNamara: or anything to get into film school. I think my
Tony McNamara: brothers and I hastily made some like terrible three minute
Tony McNamara: short film and put it with the play. But the
Tony McNamara: play was kind of what got me in, yeah.
Jenny Curtis: And what did you study at film school specifically?
Tony McNamara: I studied screenwriting. Yeah. Australian Film School's like very small.
Tony McNamara: And at the time we studied everything, which was what was
Tony McNamara: good about it. Because there's only 15 kids in your year. There's
Tony McNamara: like two screenwriters, two directors, two DOPs, two editors. And
Tony McNamara: so then you rotate through all the disciplines. So you
Tony McNamara: spent two months screenwriting and then you go ... like I
Tony McNamara: edited films and documentaries. And camera was just a bust
Tony McNamara: for me because I can't think like that. But you were in
Tony McNamara: all the departments and really learned all the aspects of it,
Tony McNamara: which was what was good about that school.
Jenny Curtis: I love that you went to school in your mid twenties because
Jenny Curtis: so much, at least in America, we're told if we
Jenny Curtis: don't know what we're doing at 18, we're probably not going
Jenny Curtis: to make it.
Tony McNamara: Yeah. They probably still have it. But at the film school you had to be, I think, 22 was
Tony McNamara: the young, stupid guy. And I think it's because they want people who really love it. Because they had a
Tony McNamara: whole philosophy about why the film school was like that. I think it was kind of a good philosophy.
Jenny Curtis: That's kind of the same as having to learn all
Jenny Curtis: of the dynamics of filmmaking Because you need life experience.
Jenny Curtis: You need to know what everybody else's job on set is.
Tony McNamara: Yeah. I think so. It was a really lucky break to get in
Tony McNamara: there because they were really good teachers and lots of people
Tony McNamara: I still know who I went to film school with.
Jenny Curtis: And then out of film school though, you went back
Jenny Curtis: to writing plays for the Sydney Theater Company, or was
Jenny Curtis: that all throughout?
Tony McNamara: I threw away film school. I think during film school,
Tony McNamara: maybe the first play went on when I was in
Tony McNamara: second year, and then I wrote another play which they put
Tony McNamara: on in the next year, which did really well. And then
Tony McNamara: they kicked it up the next year to their main stage
Tony McNamara: season. And then they took me on as playwriting resident.
Tony McNamara: So the playwriting thing was happening in tandem with film
Tony McNamara: school. I got out of film school and I was like, " Oh, do
Tony McNamara: I really want to keep waiting tables?" And then they
Tony McNamara: offered me residency as playwright, it's where you get paid. And
Tony McNamara: my play was going on. And so I was like, "
Tony McNamara: I'll just do that."
Jenny Curtis: Sounds like a good choice.
Tony McNamara: Yeah. Because then I seemed to have a play on every year
Tony McNamara: or two years there for a long time.
Jenny Curtis: And one of those plays was a play called The
Jenny Curtis: Great, about Catherine the Great.
Tony McNamara: Certainly was, yeah.
Jenny Curtis: And that's what sparked this Hulu TV show that you now
Jenny Curtis: have called The Great. You wrote for an actress named
Jenny Curtis: Robyn Nevin.
Tony McNamara: Yeah. Robyn was like head of the company and she's one
Tony McNamara: of our great actors and she was like, " I keep
Tony McNamara: programming your plays, so you should write me one." And then
Tony McNamara: I was looking around trying to think what I could
Tony McNamara: write for her. Then I just stumbled upon, I think it was
Tony McNamara: like three minutes of something documentary about Catherine the Great
Tony McNamara: or I think I read something. I'm still not even sure. But I was
Tony McNamara: just like, " Oh, I've never done that." And I'd written four contemporary
Tony McNamara: plays and I was like, " I'll try and to do that." In the end she didn't
Tony McNamara: do the play, she went and did something else. But she
Tony McNamara: did get it. Her, and she's left the company, and
Tony McNamara: Cate Blanchett and Andrew, her husband, took over and then they produced it.
Jenny Curtis: Was it hard writing for someone who then you had to
Jenny Curtis: have another actress play the role?
Tony McNamara: Not really. I mean, even if I know the act
Tony McNamara: that he's going to play it, for some reason I can't think
Tony McNamara: about them when I write it. Like I have some
Tony McNamara: other voice in my head about that he's the character and I don't
Tony McNamara: really think in the actors voice in a way. So no. I
Tony McNamara: was disappointed because I really wanted her to do it
Tony McNamara: back, but I didn't go, " Oh no. The play's ruined."
Jenny Curtis: Yeah. And then how long after that did you turn it
Jenny Curtis: into a screenplay?
Tony McNamara: Gillian Armstrong, great Australian director, saw it and wanted it.
Tony McNamara: I think I'd written a screenplay a few years before,
Tony McNamara: but I'd sort of stopped being mostly theater and dabbling
Tony McNamara: a little bit in TV. Working with her I wrote
Tony McNamara: the screenplay and it was fun and I had a good time,
Tony McNamara: but it was probably two years after. It was a
Tony McNamara: while before they optioned it.
Jenny Curtis: Jumping into The Favourite. Deborah Davis had done a pass of
Jenny Curtis: a dramatic version of The Favourite. And Yorgos was looking to
Jenny Curtis: change the tone and that's why he found you?
Tony McNamara: Yeah, basically. I mean he liked the story, but it was a very straight
Tony McNamara: rendering, I guess, which isn't really his thing. He was
Tony McNamara: just reading lots of screenplays and trying to find a
Tony McNamara: writer he felt like would get what he wanted to
Tony McNamara: do and had a voice that he kind of got.
Jenny Curtis: Now, when you started doing passes on it, did you
Jenny Curtis: continue to work with Deborah, or was her pass number
Jenny Curtis: one and then you took it from there?
Tony McNamara: Yeah. Because I didn't ever really met Deborah until well
Tony McNamara: after the film was made. Because we sort of re engineered the whole
Tony McNamara: thing and got rid of the history and changed what
Tony McNamara: we wanted.
Jenny Curtis: Screw history.
Tony McNamara: Yeah. We were like, "If you want a history lesson, read a book." Then he
Tony McNamara: and I spent a long time working on it together.
Jenny Curtis: And while you were working on it, you started the
Jenny Curtis: pilot to The Great, is that correct?
Tony McNamara: I don't know. Around the time we were shooting The
Tony McNamara: Favourite, I was thinking about TV and what I wanted to
Tony McNamara: do. And I'd been writing some pilots and stuff. But
Tony McNamara: I know Marian Macgowan, who's been exec producer with me
Tony McNamara: on The Great, she was the original optioner of the film.
Tony McNamara: So she'd always kept me going when I'd be like, "
Tony McNamara: I think we're done." Because I felt like I couldn't tell the story
Tony McNamara: properly in that time. So my wife is like, " Well, you
Tony McNamara: love TV. It should be TV." As always, she was right.
Jenny Curtis: I think I heard you say in another interview that
Jenny Curtis: you hadn't really seen how the show would click as
Jenny Curtis: a whole until you saw Nicholas Hoult acting in The Favourite.
Tony McNamara: Not that I couldn't say click. I was just aware that
Tony McNamara: casting ... just always think if you cast well ... and I
Tony McNamara: think we'd thought about in the film version we've been
Tony McNamara: casting and that was always a role, even though we'd
Tony McNamara: found some great Catherine's when we were attaching people to the
Tony McNamara: film version, I'd never found Peter. I never was that gung ho
Tony McNamara: to make it because I was always like, " That has
Tony McNamara: to work." And he's got to be comic, and not malicious but
Tony McNamara: crazy. And then I saw Nick in rehearsal, we did
Tony McNamara: three weeks of rehearsal for The Favorite, and I think
Tony McNamara: after a couple of days with Nick I was like, " Well,
Tony McNamara: he could do it." He's amazing. He really gets what
Tony McNamara: the material is and he's so brutal
Jenny Curtis: After knowing that you wanted him, what was the process
Jenny Curtis: like? You go up and tap him on the shoulder
Jenny Curtis: after a rehearsal and say, " I have another project for
Jenny Curtis: you," or?
Tony McNamara: I knew I wanted Elle as well, so I'd send them
Tony McNamara: both the screenplay. I said, " Would you guys be interested
Tony McNamara: in this?" And then they really loved it. And then I
Tony McNamara: sort of went, " I think I want to do it
Tony McNamara: as TV though." And then they were really excited about that idea. Because Nick hadn't
Tony McNamara: done TV in a long time, Al had never done TV. So it sort of worked as simply as that. I just sent it
Tony McNamara: to both of them and had a chat with each
Tony McNamara: and they were both really into it straight away.
Jenny Curtis: So Elle Fanning plays Catherine. And she's also an EP
Jenny Curtis: on the show as well.
Tony McNamara: Yeah.
Jenny Curtis: What was her role in the development of the story
Jenny Curtis: and the character? How did she partake in that?
Tony McNamara: Basically she came and took it out with me when I
Tony McNamara: pitched it. Like I'd sent the pilot out and they were
Tony McNamara: networks interested. And then she talked about why she loved it
Tony McNamara: and why it was a good story for young women, but
Tony McNamara: she had input in costume and just every day. Like
Tony McNamara: I think the good thing about Elle is she's got
Tony McNamara: a great eye, and I think for both Nick and her, they really know
Tony McNamara: what show we're making. That's half the battle when you're
Tony McNamara: trying to make something a little bit different, because the
Tony McNamara: tone of the show is so specific and what I want it
Tony McNamara: to look like, I was really specific. And she knew
Tony McNamara: all that and so she was always like on those
Tony McNamara: things. And then she would have these great ideas. Like the
Tony McNamara: pink dress in the finale was her idea.
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Jenny Curtis: The rest of the cast is fantastic. You probably had
Jenny Curtis: to search far and wide to find these people. What
Jenny Curtis: was the casting process like?
Tony McNamara: It was sort of easy in a way because it was a time that I
Tony McNamara: knew they had to be great dramatic actors, but also
Tony McNamara: their first instinct had to be comic. But they also
Tony McNamara: had to have dramatic chops, I guess. So most of
Tony McNamara: them are really experienced theater actors. I sort of slightly looked
Tony McNamara: for people who'd done a lot of theater. They're all
Tony McNamara: very good comic actors who really can turn on the
Tony McNamara: drama when you need it. They just play the truth all
Tony McNamara: the time, but they know where the comic truth is and they know where the dramatic truth is.
Tony McNamara: And I never have to explain any of that. They just instinctively get it.
Jenny Curtis: You didn't bring them back like hundreds of times to
Jenny Curtis: make sure they could nail it?
Tony McNamara: No. I think maybe they did one and maybe they did a call back. I always just (inaudible)
Tony McNamara: with them. Because you're with people a long time so you want to like them.
Jenny Curtis: For your writer's room you've talked about how you view
Jenny Curtis: this show as a contemporary story. How did you relate
Jenny Curtis: that to your writers and get everyone on the same
Jenny Curtis: page to tell this story?
Tony McNamara: It was hard, I guess. I'd already written two episodes and we
Tony McNamara: had shot the pilot so they had the pilot to
Tony McNamara: watch. Because we shot the pilot and then we got green
Tony McNamara: room lit. In that period I had to deliver like
Tony McNamara: a pilot and the second episode. So I'd basically done that.
Tony McNamara: And then they all read the play and various versions of the
Tony McNamara: screenplay and I stuffed the room trying to think of
Tony McNamara: different aspects that each writer would bring. So some of
Tony McNamara: the writers knew why they were coming, in a way. They knew they
Tony McNamara: were there because they had a real angle on contemporary politics
Tony McNamara: and a real deep knowledge. And there was just younger voices than
Tony McNamara: me, because it's a 21 year old woman who's driving the
Tony McNamara: show. So there had to be voices that were strongly
Tony McNamara: that voice. And then there were older writers who were bringing
Tony McNamara: a structural thing and experience to be on a show
Tony McNamara: that it was tonally trying to ride a bit of
Tony McNamara: a line. So it was just that. It wasn't a big room. It's maybe
Tony McNamara: four or five people. I was always like, " If we're
Tony McNamara: starting a story halfway through I'll always go, now give
Tony McNamara: me the contemporary version of that story we're telling."
Jenny Curtis: Is it true that you had a white board of trivia
Jenny Curtis: about that time period?
Tony McNamara: Yeah.
Jenny Curtis: Would you guys just kind of throw a dart and
Jenny Curtis: pick one or how would you go about that?
Tony McNamara: Amelia does a lot of the research, and the other writers too, that
Tony McNamara: they'd sort of, not so much about Catherine, just like
Tony McNamara: the era. All this dumb shit and funny stuff about the way
Tony McNamara: people thought or weird details like the lemons and the contraception
Tony McNamara: and all like-
Jenny Curtis: The lemon thing is bizarre.
Tony McNamara: Yeah. That was all true. So even though I'm not like a massive slavish to history clearly, we
Tony McNamara: do have a list of stuff that I think suits the time of the show that we kind of,
Tony McNamara: as we're storying we kind of go, " Oh, what would that be?" You know?
Jenny Curtis: Yeah. Was the pregnancy test made up or was that a
Jenny Curtis: thing they did?
Tony McNamara: The pregnancy test is true, as well.
Jenny Curtis: What?
Tony McNamara: In fact, in the nineties, I don't know whether it was like Columbia or something did the actual
Tony McNamara: test, and it's 92% effective for predicting pregnancies.
Jenny Curtis: That's wild.
Tony McNamara: Yeah. History is the weird gift that keeps giving, I have to say
Jenny Curtis: There's so much absurd, delightful detail in this show. When
Jenny Curtis: you're thinking, because you write a lot of comedy, do
Jenny Curtis: you think in terms of what will be funny? Or
Jenny Curtis: how do you find the humor in what you're doing?
Tony McNamara: I think the characters are well built so I'm just
Tony McNamara: like, write character, don't write jokes. We never consciously write
Tony McNamara: jokes. But there's always like if we've got a story,
Tony McNamara: I'll be like, " Where's the comic edge in that story?
Tony McNamara: How are we telling that story so that it's our
Tony McNamara: show?" In a way that's probably the most I do
Tony McNamara: in terms of comic drive, is the way we're telling
Tony McNamara: the story. I don't really individually go, "Are the jokes funny?" Because
Tony McNamara: script wise, I write 90% of it. So I just assume if I'm true to
Tony McNamara: my characters and my actors, because if they've got a performance it and
Tony McNamara: I never want them reaching for comedy and they know
Tony McNamara: that. I can't reach for comedy in the scripts and then go, "
Tony McNamara: But don't reach for comedy." I can't remember, but I
Tony McNamara: used to have this thing, and maybe it was Matt Williams who
Tony McNamara: wrote Roseanne, I think he had make it real, make
Tony McNamara: it funny. But make it real first. So we sort
Tony McNamara: of try and do that, even though it's real to our world,
Tony McNamara: we sometimes do die. Let's tell the story differently because
Tony McNamara: it's not funny enough, for sure.
Jenny Curtis: On the flip side, it's such a violent story, but
Jenny Curtis: it's also so casual in the violence that it doesn't
Jenny Curtis: feel overwhelming.
Tony McNamara: Yeah. I mean, I suppose in showing the writers what sort of show I did have a bunch
Tony McNamara: of things that the world was, and one of the first ones was casually violent.
Jenny Curtis: And I know Elle said she was nervous before doing
Jenny Curtis: this because she doesn't do a whole lot of comedy.
Tony McNamara: Yeah. Yeah. She was quite nervous. She didn't let it
Tony McNamara: on too much. This story is narratively a drama, and
Tony McNamara: execution wise a comedy. And it had to work as
Tony McNamara: a drama and I knew she could make it work
Tony McNamara: as a drama in an amazing way. I'd seen her
Tony McNamara: in Ginger and Rose and she had this charm and
Tony McNamara: funniness that I thought would come out if she was
Tony McNamara: given the right material. It does take a sort of
Tony McNamara: fearlessness that she hadn't expected, like watching Nick or Doug
Tony McNamara: or Belinda just go for it. But she really began to
Tony McNamara: revel in that. And she really found her place with
Tony McNamara: the comedy more and more as the show goes on.
Tony McNamara: And her comedy is a different comedy from everyone else, but
Tony McNamara: she's really great at it.
Jenny Curtis: Yeah. That's why it's special because she's supposed to be
Jenny Curtis: different from everybody else.
Tony McNamara: Exactly. She did amazingly well because she's a really brave actor
Tony McNamara: and she just wants to be better and she's just
Tony McNamara: a ultimate professional.
Jenny Curtis: Talking about bravery, as an actor at least, the sex
Jenny Curtis: in the show is rampant, which it could be a
Jenny Curtis: really intimidating thing to look at as an actor. But
Jenny Curtis: it's interesting because you never put sex for sex sake
Jenny Curtis: in the show. Everything has a purpose and it's telling
Jenny Curtis: a story and I guess I just want to hear
Jenny Curtis: more about your process with that. If that's not a
Jenny Curtis: weird question.
Tony McNamara: It's kind of a weird question. I mean, I had a view obviously. Originally I was like, " Well, there'll
Tony McNamara: be a fair bit of sex because everyone's locked in
Tony McNamara: a giant apartment building drinking vodka all day." I was
Tony McNamara: just conscious of like all the sex being storytelling and
Tony McNamara: being character driven and dynamic driven. Like the dynamic between
Tony McNamara: Peter and Catherine and the purpose of their sex becomes
Tony McNamara: getting a baby. And in fact they have very little physical
Tony McNamara: connection, and then Georgina and Peter is a different thing.
Tony McNamara: And then Catherine and Leo had to be a very
Tony McNamara: different thing. So it was all like the sex should
Tony McNamara: be storytelling, it's not just generic TV sex. It was really
Tony McNamara: kind of out of that. And then the actors was
Tony McNamara: totally up for that idea. They sort of liked the
Tony McNamara: idea that they weren't just being told, " Go and have sex." It
Tony McNamara: was very specific what they had to do. It's even
Tony McNamara: specific things like Charity, who plays Georgina, would bring me
Tony McNamara: in, we'd talk about this particular sex scene because of
Tony McNamara: what's happening in the story with Peter, should it be
Tony McNamara: different? And should she take a different position? So it
Tony McNamara: was all very like how the characters were and in
Tony McNamara: their dynamic at that particular point. And also on a show like this I was
Tony McNamara: just probably obsessive about tone. I was very much like
Tony McNamara: everything's got a tone, the way everything happens. So I can't then drop
Tony McNamara: the tone on the sex. I can't just then go to generic
Tony McNamara: tone. I didn't think it was a big deal, but
Tony McNamara: everyone asks me about it.
Jenny Curtis: I think everybody asks about it because it's done so
Jenny Curtis: well. Sorry Hollywood, but I'm exhausted by sex scenes. I
Jenny Curtis: think they can be incredibly obnoxious. And in this, you'd
Jenny Curtis: stripped away the shame of it. It was all just
Jenny Curtis: fun and character building. I watched this show with my
Jenny Curtis: parents. I'm sitting between my mom and my dad watching
Jenny Curtis: sex all over a castle or whatever that is. And
Jenny Curtis: it's just fun. So I think that's why people bring
Jenny Curtis: it up so much.
Tony McNamara: I'm glad it worked. We thought all the sex scenes were really fun. It was
Tony McNamara: the easiest sex scenes I've ever seen have, because the
Tony McNamara: actors were very much coming from character. They weren't just being told, "
Tony McNamara: Now look hot, look like you're into it." Like porn
Tony McNamara: directing or something. It was very much like, " This is
Tony McNamara: just another element in a story that you guys are telling."
Jenny Curtis: Speaking of your characters, what is your favorite aspect of
Jenny Curtis: the characters that you write in this show?
Tony McNamara: I don't know. I think that they all are very human, I guess is
Tony McNamara: my favorite aspect. They're all more than one thing. And there's
Tony McNamara: no one in the show I think he's a bad person,
Tony McNamara: which is probably just how I come at things as
Tony McNamara: a writer. I think people behave badly. And I think
Tony McNamara: characters in the show are driven by things that are
Tony McNamara: fucked up, but I never write as if someone's a
Tony McNamara: terrible person. And so I think that helps the actors
Tony McNamara: because it's easy for them to find the humanity in their
Tony McNamara: characters. And it gives me more latitude as a writer
Tony McNamara: because there's more range for someone like the Archbishop, is
Tony McNamara: it's easy to make him the bad guy and he
Tony McNamara: sort of is. But he's sort of not. There's a lot
Tony McNamara: of elements to him that aren't bad. So I kind
Tony McNamara: of like that about the characters.
Jenny Curtis: It just looks like a really fun set to be
Jenny Curtis: on. But I did have a question. The constant smashing
Jenny Curtis: of the glasses. Was that hell for your production designer?
Tony McNamara: No, I don't think so. I think there were much worse things for
Tony McNamara: Francesca than the glasses. I mean, I remember in the
Tony McNamara: pilot, we ran out, (inaudible) and someone was off
Tony McNamara: trying to buy real ones.
Jenny Curtis: Oh, God.
Tony McNamara: So we were like, "You can't have real ones." No, I think Francesca had a lot more bigger
Tony McNamara: problems than the glasses.
Jenny Curtis: Like what?
Tony McNamara: Oh no, just the build. I mean, she built that
Tony McNamara: entire palace in a studio in London. I'm like, " Now
Tony McNamara: we're torturing people and we'd need to build that. Now
Tony McNamara: we're doing this." She's an amazing production designer. She just
Tony McNamara: loves it. But it's a big job of that kind of thing.
Jenny Curtis: On The Great, what was the feeling of the first
Jenny Curtis: day on set compared to the feeling of the last
Jenny Curtis: day on set?
Tony McNamara: Well, the sets were finished on the last day, so
Tony McNamara: that was good. So that would be the main feeling. The first day the series was quite
Tony McNamara: chaotic because we were rushing to get in and the
Tony McNamara: sets were being built around as we started shooting. So it
Tony McNamara: was very like crazy chaos. But I remember the first time I
Tony McNamara: was watching Nick and Elle together, I knew they knew
Tony McNamara: each other and they worked together, but I wasn't sure
Tony McNamara: how they'd go with the material together and how the chemistry
Tony McNamara: would be. And they just clicked and I was like, " Oh." After the first
Tony McNamara: day, have seen the actor's work, I was like, " Well, they're
Tony McNamara: all amazing." So that takes some pressure off. Yeah. I
Tony McNamara: was kind of like, by the end of the first few
Tony McNamara: days, I was like, " They all work. Great." And they
Tony McNamara: just felt like an ensemble really, really quickly. Like they
Tony McNamara: just felt like the world of the show didn't take long
Tony McNamara: to bed in. On some shows it does take a
Tony McNamara: while for everyone to find their way into the show. But I
Tony McNamara: think with these guys, they really didn't take long. And
Tony McNamara: that saved us in a lot of ways because we
Tony McNamara: were struggling with set building and a bunch of different
Tony McNamara: things and they just came in and they're always on
Tony McNamara: their game, as they do all the time. They just
Tony McNamara: make life really easy because they're so good.
Jenny Curtis: And then the last day, what was the last scene you shot?
Tony McNamara: The last thing we shot was, I'm pretty sure it was
Tony McNamara: like some kind of scene with all ... it didn't end
Tony McNamara: up in the show. I think because it was the
Tony McNamara: scene we bumped and bumped down the road. And we
Tony McNamara: were like trying to do it in half light in Italy.
Tony McNamara: Everyone really just wanted to finish and go to the
Tony McNamara: disco. Oh, no, the last thing was in the theater
Tony McNamara: actually. I totally remember, because all the actors were in
Tony McNamara: Italy for our final. And then they all came and we're in this
Tony McNamara: amazing 16th century theater, which is in the palace, which
Tony McNamara: we shoot where the coup plotters go all the time.
Tony McNamara: And all the actors and everyone got up in the boxes and watched the
Tony McNamara: final scene. It was great. And then we went to
Tony McNamara: an Italian disco with 400 people crammed into a room
Tony McNamara: for 200, forgetting the fact that there was COVID- 19 northern Italy.
Jenny Curtis: When did you wrap shooting?
Tony McNamara: February 23.
Jenny Curtis: Oh wow.
Tony McNamara: So we left and they shut down northern Italy the day after we left.
Tony McNamara: No one at the time has particularly ... None of the Italian crew
Tony McNamara: were phased. We were like, " I think there's ... I'm sure it'll be fine."
Jenny Curtis: I'm glad you guys are all okay.
Tony McNamara: Yeah. Yeah.
Jenny Curtis: So you had to turn the show around really fast then?
Tony McNamara: Yeah, it was a really quick turn around. We had to
Tony McNamara: post the last two episodes in about seven weeks.
Jenny Curtis: Recently you were picked up for your second season. Congratulations.
Tony McNamara: Thank you.
Jenny Curtis: How did you find out? Did they call you? Do
Jenny Curtis: they email you? What was that moment?
Tony McNamara: Yeah, they call you. And my time difference is weird
Tony McNamara: so I usually wake up and there's an email going, " Call us."
Tony McNamara: So I called and they were like, " Yeah. All right. Let's do it again." It's that
Tony McNamara: thing of you're really waiting for the call and then you start getting dates
Tony McNamara: of when you have to do it by, and then you're like, "That's great. We're
Tony McNamara: shooting when? 10 scripts. Write a script? What? Okay then."
Jenny Curtis: Did they give you dates that you have to do
Jenny Curtis: it by?
Tony McNamara: Yeah, we got shooting dates.
Jenny Curtis: How do you do that during coronavirus time?
Tony McNamara: I don't know. Optimistically. I suppose we just prepare as
Tony McNamara: if I just get the room together and start writing scripts
Tony McNamara: as fast as possible.
Jenny Curtis: Are you going to be able to do an in person room with your writers?
Tony McNamara: Not at the moment. We've done three weeks not in person.
Tony McNamara: I'm not a fan of the Zoom room at all.
Tony McNamara: So I'm toying with a couple of writers who are
Tony McNamara: Sydney based so I might do a couple of weeks
Tony McNamara: with them and Zoom in our American writers. But yeah,
Tony McNamara: it's hard. The Zoom room's really difficult.
Jenny Curtis: It is. Not to draw a weird parallel, but I
Jenny Curtis: feel like screens take our creativity away. But you always
Jenny Curtis: write your first drafts of your script by hand. Is
Jenny Curtis: that true?
Tony McNamara: I certainly do. Got thousands of these. There you go. Episode one.
Jenny Curtis: You must get a lot of hand cramps.
Tony McNamara: Not really. I don't know. I'm just used to it.
Tony McNamara: It's too traumatic staring at a blank screen. Like, " Now it has to be good." Whereas
Tony McNamara: I never even think about it being good if I'm
Tony McNamara: just writing it on scraps of paper.
Jenny Curtis: Is it the overwhelmingness of the screen or is it,
Jenny Curtis: like for me I feel like staring at a screen
Jenny Curtis: zaps my energy and I don't want to make things
Jenny Curtis: anymore. If that makes sense.
Tony McNamara: Something like that.
Jenny Curtis: But there's something romantic about paper.
Tony McNamara: I think it's just easier. It feels like you're really making a decision once you type it up.
Tony McNamara: It's just writer superstition. Like it has to be yellow
Tony McNamara: pads. It's ridiculous. But even before I came to Perth,
Tony McNamara: it was in Sydney in a panic going, " What if they don't have my
Tony McNamara: yellow pads there"
Jenny Curtis: As we wrap up I just want to ask, what
Jenny Curtis: does it mean to you to have a life in storytelling?
Tony McNamara: To me it's like everything. I can't imagine a life without
Tony McNamara: it. I think it's more important than ever in a strange way, storytelling, I
Tony McNamara: think. I think the world's a pretty weird place so I feel
Tony McNamara: like stories help us make sense of it. And there's a lot make
Tony McNamara: sense at the moment. For me personally I don't know how to believe
Tony McNamara: if I cannot write stories. It's like little kids, they're so hungry
Tony McNamara: for stories. They just want you to tell stories to them all
Tony McNamara: the time. So there's something innate in our psychology need to hear stories to
Tony McNamara: help us make sense of things. So I feel like
Tony McNamara: at the moment that's going to become more important, the
Tony McNamara: stories we tell.
Jenny Curtis: Tony McNamara, thank you so much for joining me today.
Jenny Curtis: I love The Great. I am so excited that you're
Jenny Curtis: doing season two and good luck on the Emmy season.
Jenny Curtis: I'm pulling for you.
Tony McNamara: Thanks Jenny.
Jenny Curtis: But thank you for joining us.
Tony McNamara: Thank you very much.
Jenny Curtis: Hollywood Unscripted was created by CurtCo Media. This special episode
Jenny Curtis: of the Stuck at Home series was hosted and produced
Jenny Curtis: by me, Jenny Curtis, with guest Tony McNamara. Co produced and
Jenny Curtis: edited by Jay Whiting. The executive producer of Hollywood Unscripted
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