WEBVTT - 29 - Bruce Miller (The Handmaid's Tale) 0:00:01.150 --> 0:00:02.270 From CurtCo Media. 0:00:02.449 --> 0:00:02.981 There's no place like Hollywood. 0:00:02.981 --> 0:00:18.800 Welcome to another special edition of Hollywood Unscripted: Stuck at 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:21.230 Home. I'm Jenny Curtis and today we are talking to 0:00:21.230 --> 0:00:24.689 the showrunner of Hulu's dystopian drama, The Handmaid's Tale, Bruce 0:00:24.689 --> 0:00:26.911 Miller. Bruce, thank you for joining us. 0:00:26.911 --> 0:00:28.390 It's my pleasure to be here. 0:00:28.660 --> 0:00:30.720 Now, things have started to open up a bit which 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:32.570 is an issue all on its own, but we do 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:34.949 like to check in a bit, how are you doing? 0:00:34.949 --> 0:00:37.450 How did quarantine treat you or how is it treating you? 0:00:37.500 --> 0:00:39.900 It's treating me very well. Thank you. I feel very 0:00:39.900 --> 0:00:44.129 lucky. All my children are home, some with girlfriends and 0:00:44.129 --> 0:00:46.650 so it's a very, very, very busy house and I 0:00:46.650 --> 0:00:51.289 just feel incredibly lucky. And mostly, we've been working pretty 0:00:51.390 --> 0:00:53.589 much the same as we always do just via Zoom, 0:00:53.589 --> 0:00:55.410 the writers. We've worked together for a long time, so it was a 0:00:56.130 --> 0:00:59.810 fairly easy transition, but exactly your question, which is everybody's 0:00:59.810 --> 0:01:02.219 also dealing with real life and that's probably a bigger issue. 0:01:02.340 --> 0:01:04.640 Before we get into what you guys are working on, 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:08.399 let's start at the very beginning. So, when did you start 0:01:08.399 --> 0:01:10.259 writing? When did you know you wanted to be in 0:01:10.259 --> 0:01:11.100 the industry? 0:01:11.259 --> 0:01:14.139 Well, my dad is tangentially in the industry. He's on 0:01:14.140 --> 0:01:17.810 the technical side, and so I always grew up knowing 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:21.060 a lot about how movies were made physically, but not 0:01:21.060 --> 0:01:23.619 really much about the kind of story side of things 0:01:23.619 --> 0:01:27.029 because he sold lighting equipment to directors of photography and 0:01:27.030 --> 0:01:29.620 so you don't need many writers when you're in that 0:01:29.690 --> 0:01:31.809 house, but I always wrote. I think the time I 0:01:31.810 --> 0:01:34.620 knew when I really was stuck being a writer was 0:01:34.899 --> 0:01:36.789 I was in college and I took writing classes every 0:01:36.789 --> 0:01:38.889 semester. And then there was a semester, I didn't take one, 0:01:39.209 --> 0:01:41.600 and I was like, "Oh, well." It felt like I wasn't 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:44.810 in school. I wasn't doing any work, so then I was like, " Okay, 0:01:44.810 --> 0:01:47.820 I'm screwed." I basically have to either be in a 0:01:47.820 --> 0:01:51.390 writing class or be a writer forever and this seemed cheaper. 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:55.740 So, did you major in writing at school? 0:01:55.820 --> 0:01:58.059 I wrote a lot in college. They had a program 0:01:58.059 --> 0:02:00.590 in fiction. They didn't have any program in television writing 0:02:00.590 --> 0:02:03.690 or screenwriting at that point, so I wrote a lot 0:02:03.690 --> 0:02:06.010 of fiction when I was in college and in high 0:02:06.010 --> 0:02:09.690 school and I didn't really write, although I was much 0:02:09.690 --> 0:02:11.919 more of a movie fan and a TV fan than 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:14.869 I was a book fan, I'm fairly to very dyslexic, 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:18.139 so I read incredibly slowly. So I'm very thinly read, 0:02:18.820 --> 0:02:23.040 not widely read, but movies, they're telling you the story, 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:24.560 so that was always easier for me to kind of 0:02:24.870 --> 0:02:28.090 dissect, but I wrote when I was in college. I 0:02:28.090 --> 0:02:30.540 wrote a screenplay. I wrote my first screenplay when I 0:02:30.540 --> 0:02:32.899 was like a senior in college and that actually got 0:02:32.900 --> 0:02:35.439 me every job I got for like 12 years. 0:02:35.650 --> 0:02:35.970 Oh, wow. 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:38.929 Was that people had read and I'm shocked as anybody 0:02:38.930 --> 0:02:39.570 else, but that's- 0:02:40.269 --> 0:02:41.190 Did that get made? 0:02:41.540 --> 0:02:43.210 Oh, no, never. You know the future world. 0:02:44.310 --> 0:02:46.839 So, then you've got your foot in the door, you've 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:50.620 worked on some major shows. Many of them though, you 0:02:50.620 --> 0:02:52.709 were a producer on, but you would come in either 0:02:52.750 --> 0:02:55.269 after the show had started or leave before the show 0:02:55.269 --> 0:02:57.329 was finished. So, is that because you were kind of 0:02:57.329 --> 0:03:00.450 searching for something or is that kind of the nature of the game 0:03:00.450 --> 0:03:02.549 to do a few seasons of a show and then 0:03:02.549 --> 0:03:03.100 move on? 0:03:03.429 --> 0:03:04.869 It was the nature of my game and I think 0:03:04.870 --> 0:03:08.030 everybody's game is really different. That was just because they didn't 0:03:08.030 --> 0:03:11.220 succeed anywhere. I mean, people were very nice and I 0:03:11.329 --> 0:03:13.899 got jobs and I think I contributed, but I didn't really 0:03:13.899 --> 0:03:17.040 kind of become an integral part of a staff until 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:19.249 I found the right fit. It's just a function of 0:03:19.359 --> 0:03:21.870 the image of kind of a writer sitting at home 0:03:21.870 --> 0:03:23.609 and they bring them projects and they look at them, 0:03:23.609 --> 0:03:25.269 and then they decide what they're going to do. People 0:03:25.269 --> 0:03:27.169 have mortgages and kids in school, and I was a 0:03:27.169 --> 0:03:29.629 working writer and I took jobs, and when those jobs 0:03:29.630 --> 0:03:31.580 went away, I got other jobs, but mostly I got 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:34.169 fired. I mean, not in a mean way, but like 0:03:34.209 --> 0:03:36.940 not working out way, and it took me a long 0:03:36.940 --> 0:03:39.860 time. I think I'm more suited to the job I have now 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:40.960 than that job that I had before. 0:03:41.990 --> 0:03:45.080 So, having been fired, has there ever been a time 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:46.790 where you were kind of standing on the ledge of 0:03:46.790 --> 0:03:49.220 quitting or did you always press forward after that? 0:03:49.220 --> 0:03:50.240 Quitting what I'm doing? 0:03:50.390 --> 0:03:50.700 Yeah. 0:03:51.540 --> 0:03:54.950 Yeah. I mean, I think that, I went through very long periods 0:03:54.970 --> 0:03:57.369 of time where after making money for years and years 0:03:57.369 --> 0:04:01.580 steadily, I would have months and months or a year 0:04:01.580 --> 0:04:04.119 of where I wasn't working and that's terrifying, especially when 0:04:04.119 --> 0:04:06.590 you do have a mortgage and children in school. I'm 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:09.850 incredibly lucky, like most people who have skin my color, 0:04:09.850 --> 0:04:11.580 that I'd never had to worry about being on the 0:04:11.580 --> 0:04:14.610 street because my parents had money and not a ton, 0:04:14.610 --> 0:04:16.330 but they had enough that I wouldn't be living on 0:04:16.330 --> 0:04:18.740 the street, so I never really felt scared that way. 0:04:18.979 --> 0:04:21.930 So I had a way of staying in for longer, 0:04:21.930 --> 0:04:24.630 kind of keeping my foot in the pool, but it's 0:04:24.630 --> 0:04:26.320 kind of one of those things that you don't really 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:28.059 have a choice at a certain point because it's what 0:04:28.060 --> 0:04:30.099 you are more than what you do. So, you could 0:04:30.099 --> 0:04:31.920 go get another job and you're still going to be a writer. 0:04:32.150 --> 0:04:35.330 But yes, I went through periods where I definitely was like, " 0:04:35.330 --> 0:04:37.219 Okay, what am I going to do instead of this 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:40.630 because this isn't working out." And everybody goes through those 0:04:40.630 --> 0:04:42.909 things. I've been doing this a long time. I came 0:04:42.909 --> 0:04:44.440 out to L. A. to be a writer like two 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:48.819 weeks after college. It just takes... patience is the rarest 0:04:48.820 --> 0:04:51.960 of all commodities in Hollywood, so just be patient and 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:55.080 you will achieve much more than if you are scattered. 0:04:55.450 --> 0:04:58.469 Your early projects from what I can tell, you did a lot of 0:04:58.469 --> 0:05:01.539 TV movies and films and a lot of them seem 0:05:01.539 --> 0:05:04.900 to be very female focused or dealing with assault or 0:05:04.900 --> 0:05:07.380 women who were strong. Is this kind of what you've 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:09.040 been passionate about since the beginning? 0:05:09.140 --> 0:05:12.229 Yes. I don't know if it's passionate. It just is 0:05:12.229 --> 0:05:16.300 my... I feel very comfortable and I'm fascinated by strong 0:05:16.300 --> 0:05:19.020 women. I have three very strong sisters. I grew up 0:05:19.020 --> 0:05:21.839 in a house without boys. It was me and my three sisters 0:05:21.979 --> 0:05:24.909 and my mom, so I think that they're really responsible 0:05:24.919 --> 0:05:27.140 for the fact that I'm much more comfortable kind of 0:05:27.490 --> 0:05:31.710 talking, thinking, exploring the issues of women and their lives than 0:05:31.710 --> 0:05:35.380 some people just because I happen to not just know them 0:05:35.380 --> 0:05:37.400 but grow up with them and they're all very, very 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:40.429 different and they're very, very intelligent. But it is funny when you look 0:05:40.430 --> 0:05:42.360 back on all this stuff, because I really do think that 0:05:42.419 --> 0:05:47.370 writing strong, realistic grounded female characters is something I've always 0:05:47.370 --> 0:05:49.729 loved to do. And I don't really notice until like, 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:51.719 you just say you look back over your work and you're like, " 0:05:51.719 --> 0:05:55.289 Ha." But I've also been indulged a lot by women 0:05:55.289 --> 0:05:57.500 in my life help very kindly explaining what I'm doing 0:05:57.500 --> 0:06:00.080 wrong when I write about women and so I have learned 0:06:00.570 --> 0:06:03.169 along the way everybody from Yahlin Chang who worked with 0:06:03.169 --> 0:06:06.869 me on ER and D. Johnson did Rina Mamoon and then kind 0:06:06.870 --> 0:06:10.330 of now, just you have to be open to really 0:06:10.330 --> 0:06:14.370 failing big and have people around you who will gently say, " 0:06:14.589 --> 0:06:17.580 You failed big," and not be insulted, but say, " Hey, 0:06:17.580 --> 0:06:17.940 swing again." 0:06:18.430 --> 0:06:20.890 Do you have any examples of lessons you had to 0:06:20.890 --> 0:06:21.650 learn that way? 0:06:21.729 --> 0:06:25.260 Well, God, like every single day. I mean, one of the biggest 0:06:25.260 --> 0:06:28.549 things on this show was in Season One, we had a story about 0:06:28.549 --> 0:06:32.439 female genital mutilation. A character was a lesbian and she 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:35.219 was having relations with someone and they had didn't want that, 0:06:35.219 --> 0:06:37.810 so they did it to take away her sexual desire 0:06:37.990 --> 0:06:39.900 and when I came up with the idea, and I 0:06:39.900 --> 0:06:42.760 brought it up to the room, it was withering in 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:45.460 terms of the discussion, not necessarily " Don't do it," but 0:06:45.549 --> 0:06:47.510 we worked on it for a long time and I think 0:06:47.510 --> 0:06:49.940 everybody spoke very honestly about what it means and all 0:06:49.940 --> 0:06:52.229 sorts of stuff, and also a lot about how graphic 0:06:52.229 --> 0:06:53.890 it was and whether we show it or not or 0:06:53.890 --> 0:06:55.580 what do we show. We ended up showing nothing. We 0:06:55.580 --> 0:06:58.760 don't even say it in the episode. But the result of that 0:06:58.930 --> 0:07:01.859 was really when we sent it to Hulu and MGM, 0:07:01.859 --> 0:07:04.630 they were like, " Okay." No one bunked and that was 0:07:04.630 --> 0:07:07.229 because it had been assaulted by the women in my 0:07:07.229 --> 0:07:10.440 office. The idea had been pounded and I think that 0:07:10.489 --> 0:07:12.750 in the end, the only thing that would have allowed 0:07:12.750 --> 0:07:15.810 it to stand up is having it be rewritten and 0:07:15.810 --> 0:07:19.519 refocused and challenged by the smart women I have worked with. 0:07:19.870 --> 0:07:23.190 You have a writer's room that's majority female. I think 0:07:23.190 --> 0:07:25.620 you've seven out of 10 writers are female. 0:07:25.690 --> 0:07:28.110 That sounds right, but they do 10 out of 10 of the work, 0:07:28.110 --> 0:07:29.001 so it counts (inaudible) 0:07:29.850 --> 0:07:33.770 What is that atmosphere like though, because Gilead is a heavy place, 0:07:33.770 --> 0:07:36.660 so I imagine the writers room must be very heavy 0:07:36.660 --> 0:07:37.340 at times? 0:07:37.750 --> 0:07:41.810 Almost never. It is the most remarkable thing that you've 0:07:41.810 --> 0:07:45.560 ever seen. One of our consultants, a UN employee, sometimes 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:48.989 when she's in town uses an office in our offices 0:07:48.989 --> 0:07:51.439 and consults with us about the UN and she says 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:54.830 it's just shocking if anybody knew the peals of laughter 0:07:54.830 --> 0:07:57.550 coming out of the writers' room. It seemed so incongruous, 0:07:57.550 --> 0:07:59.330 but I actually think it's a function of how heavy 0:07:59.330 --> 0:08:04.009 the material is. The room is supportive and funny and 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:07.249 knows how to kind of defuse tensions, but also, you have 0:08:07.250 --> 0:08:10.879 to be very comfortable in a room, not just talking about 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:14.489 yourself, but having those things challenged and interrogated, not a 0:08:14.489 --> 0:08:16.929 bad way, but it only does you a certain amount 0:08:16.929 --> 0:08:19.160 of good for someone to tell you a story for 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:21.269 you to understand that you have to be able to ask them questions 0:08:21.270 --> 0:08:25.730 about it. A lot of these stories are sexual assault stories, sexual harassment stories, 0:08:25.730 --> 0:08:28.559 just terrible things that happen to people's lives, problems with 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:30.420 their husband or whatever, and you have to know you're 0:08:30.420 --> 0:08:32.670 surrounded by people who are not asking you questions for 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:36.189 prurient reasons. That they want to know because they are 0:08:36.189 --> 0:08:38.990 curious, because they are writers, because they need to know 0:08:38.990 --> 0:08:41.140 for the show, and you never feel like they're poking 0:08:41.140 --> 0:08:44.560 into your personal life. And that's a level of comfort 0:08:44.610 --> 0:08:47.599 that I think allows people to not feel like when 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:50.010 you're talking about all this terrible stuff that you can't 0:08:50.010 --> 0:08:51.800 make a joke. And the set is the same way, 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:54.439 by the way, Lizzie sets an example, Elizabeth moss has 0:08:54.439 --> 0:08:57.650 an example and everybody follows. It's shocking how much of 0:08:57.650 --> 0:09:01.050 a seventh grade giggle fest. And so, we're very lucky 0:09:01.050 --> 0:09:03.079 in that way that we have a very heavy show 0:09:03.079 --> 0:09:06.020 and quite a wonderful, joyous working environment. 0:09:06.179 --> 0:09:06.481 I think that's important. 0:09:06.481 --> 0:09:06.551 Mm-hmm (affirmative). 0:09:07.750 --> 0:09:10.750 To discuss The Handmaid's Tale, again, starting at the beginning, 0:09:10.750 --> 0:09:11.689 how did it come into being? 0:09:11.970 --> 0:09:14.589 I had read the book when I was in college, actually, strangely 0:09:14.589 --> 0:09:16.810 enough in a new fiction class, which tells you how 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:20.410 long ago, that was like a really long time and I loved 0:09:20.410 --> 0:09:22.099 it as a book. It was really one of those 0:09:22.100 --> 0:09:23.969 books that taught me a writing style that I wanted 0:09:23.970 --> 0:09:26.809 to emulate. And so, as I said before, I'm very 0:09:26.809 --> 0:09:29.290 dyslexic, so I tend to read the same books over 0:09:29.290 --> 0:09:30.809 and over again. So, I read the book a bunch 0:09:30.809 --> 0:09:32.449 of times over the years, and I always loved it 0:09:32.449 --> 0:09:34.160 and every time I read it, I thought, this is 0:09:35.579 --> 0:09:37.500 the time where it's the most prescient, this is the 0:09:37.500 --> 0:09:40.410 time where every time you read it, you're like, " Aha." Margaret Atwood 0:09:40.410 --> 0:09:42.559 really put her finger on it. She's so smart and 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:44.269 such a witch that she can put her finger on 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:46.910 any time period because I'm sure she travels to those 0:09:46.910 --> 0:09:49.360 times and I heard they were making a TV series 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:51.650 out of it. This is very early on in my career and 0:09:51.650 --> 0:09:54.509 Ilene Chaiken had the rights and she was making it at Showtime, 0:09:54.510 --> 0:09:56.740 and I was a fan. I was just, " Oh, Ilene 0:09:56.740 --> 0:09:58.989 Chaiken. I can't wait." I mean, she's a spectacular writer 0:09:58.990 --> 0:10:00.969 and showrunner. I was on all ready to sit down and 0:10:01.030 --> 0:10:03.410 watch Showtime with my popcorn, but it never kind of 0:10:03.490 --> 0:10:06.650 came back. It never appeared, and so I would check 0:10:06.650 --> 0:10:09.109 every year with my agents and have those agents look 0:10:09.110 --> 0:10:12.390 around, see where it is. And kismet, I was out 0:10:12.390 --> 0:10:15.609 of work when they were looking for a showrunner. Showtime 0:10:15.610 --> 0:10:19.330 had sold it to, Ilene Chaiken, who was doing Empire quite 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:21.449 handily and didn't have time to do it, so there 0:10:21.449 --> 0:10:23.470 was an opportunity, but they were looking for a woman, 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:25.920 and I was completely on their side, except I wanted 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:27.220 the job, so I didn't know what to do with 0:10:27.220 --> 0:10:31.530 that situation. It's like, " I 100% agree with you, but 0:10:31.530 --> 0:10:34.339 in this case I would really like it." So, I 0:10:34.339 --> 0:10:36.640 waited and waited and waited patiently and I know they 0:10:36.780 --> 0:10:38.709 spoke to a lot of people and then they very 0:10:38.709 --> 0:10:42.679 kindly invited me into pitch and it was very nice 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:44.280 and thoughtful of them to do it. So I went 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:46.500 in and I pitched what I thought of the story and 0:10:46.500 --> 0:10:48.920 it kind of went very easily and comfortably by then, I 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:52.030 think because I was a long time thinker about this 0:10:52.030 --> 0:10:55.709 book, not a short- timer. I had really thought about 0:10:55.709 --> 0:10:57.620 what kind of show this would make just because it 0:10:57.689 --> 0:11:00.309 was always one of those things that even reading, I 0:11:00.309 --> 0:11:02.500 was like, " Oh, my God. It tickles such a visual 0:11:02.530 --> 0:11:05.109 funny bone in me." So, I had thought about it 0:11:05.150 --> 0:11:07.260 a lot. The thing you don't get when you're called 0:11:07.260 --> 0:11:10.719 into adapter project is time and I like to have 0:11:10.719 --> 0:11:13.879 much more time than most people. I mean, the time 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:15.599 that I had to think about Handmaid's Tale was just 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:18.250 about right for me, so like 30 years is probably 0:11:18.429 --> 0:11:19.500 a good solid number. 0:11:19.650 --> 0:11:22.219 So, then being a fan of the book for that 0:11:22.219 --> 0:11:24.540 long, what was it like to meet Margaret Atwood? 0:11:24.610 --> 0:11:27.510 Terrifying. Not only that, I have to meet her, but 0:11:27.510 --> 0:11:30.469 before I met her, you can imagine this. They sent 0:11:30.469 --> 0:11:32.609 the first two episodes that I had written to her 0:11:32.790 --> 0:11:36.020 to see what she thought. That was a nice weekend. I 0:11:36.020 --> 0:11:38.519 didn't go to the bathroom that weekend. Well, can you imagine? 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:41.670 I mean, it's like, " Margaret Atwood, here read this." And 0:11:41.670 --> 0:11:43.790 so it was awful, I mean, it was terrifying for 0:11:43.790 --> 0:11:46.000 me. She really liked them. She had a question about 0:11:46.719 --> 0:11:50.760 what carpet muncher meant because that was in the second episode. So 0:11:51.069 --> 0:11:53.309 luckily, she Googled that I didn't have to explain, although 0:11:53.309 --> 0:11:54.359 I did save that email. 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:55.219 Frame it. 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:58.040 Forever for Margaret Atwood, yeah. And then I went up 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:01.480 to Toronto and I met her and she has gone out of her way 0:12:01.550 --> 0:12:05.100 to treat me like a writer, like a colleague, and 0:12:05.100 --> 0:12:07.790 that has been the secret to the success of the 0:12:07.790 --> 0:12:11.219 show, and I really count her as my friend. She's 0:12:11.339 --> 0:12:14.459 lovely and funny and smart and a pleasure and we 0:12:14.459 --> 0:12:16.469 get to see each other a lot. So, she's very 0:12:16.469 --> 0:12:18.270 involved in the show. I mean, I'd love her to 0:12:18.270 --> 0:12:20.439 be more involved, but the three of us are not 0:12:20.439 --> 0:12:22.370 nearly as busy as she is, like all of us 0:12:22.370 --> 0:12:25.400 put together. So, I'm always trying to squeeze more time 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:27.160 out of her, but we get a good chance to 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:29.279 talk a couple of times a season, a really long 0:12:29.610 --> 0:12:33.619 chat. And so, I feel like she is not only 0:12:33.620 --> 0:12:35.559 kind of the mother of the project, but kind of 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:36.891 the ongoing caregiver of the project. 0:12:36.891 --> 0:12:39.879 Last year, she released The Testaments 0:12:40.550 --> 0:12:40.579 Yes. 0:12:40.579 --> 0:12:43.740 And that's the sequel to Handmaid's Tale. And so, you both 0:12:43.740 --> 0:12:46.270 had to kind of work together as to not contradict 0:12:46.270 --> 0:12:47.329 each other. Is that correct? 0:12:48.209 --> 0:12:52.360 Yes, which, even hearing that out loud is so shocking 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:56.410 to me that there was any time I was in any 0:12:56.410 --> 0:12:59.449 way could be defined as collaborating with Margaret Atwood. So, 0:12:59.610 --> 0:13:03.040 she I was writing and we would talk and it was 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:05.859 very funny to because it was very general things, like she'd call and go, " 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:10.569 Okay, don't kill this person." And I'd be like, " Okay," and then, because in TV, we 0:13:10.569 --> 0:13:12.910 do a lot more of that stuff casually, like I'll 0:13:12.910 --> 0:13:14.339 make a change in a script and then just in 0:13:14.339 --> 0:13:16.490 the office, I'll say that the next three people, right, " Oh, 0:13:16.490 --> 0:13:18.469 by the way, I killed this person, so you can't 0:13:18.469 --> 0:13:21.290 use them," or something. It's all done very casually and 0:13:21.290 --> 0:13:23.329 you work together to kind of make sure everything flows. 0:13:23.540 --> 0:13:26.450 Margaret had never worked with anybody before, but she had 0:13:26.610 --> 0:13:28.879 worked with our writing staff a lot, so she knew 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:31.349 kind of how things changed and worked and how they 0:13:31.349 --> 0:13:33.429 bounced around, so I think that that was fun for 0:13:33.429 --> 0:13:35.369 her. She could bounce it off me, like it was the writing 0:13:35.370 --> 0:13:38.260 staff. She had written Episode One, I had written Episode 0:13:38.260 --> 0:13:40.129 Two in the middle, and she was writing Episode Three. 0:13:40.339 --> 0:13:43.439 So in that way, it was a very comfortable relationship for 0:13:43.439 --> 0:13:46.920 me, shockingly comfortable. I mean, I just never expected it 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:50.360 to be that comfortable and she had very few requests. She 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:51.959 was a big fan of the show. She liked where 0:13:51.959 --> 0:13:54.279 we were going with the show. She was happy to kind of 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:58.050 fit her puzzle piece into mine, but honestly, when you're 0:13:58.050 --> 0:14:01.500 adapting a classic like Handmaid's Tale, most of the time the 0:14:01.500 --> 0:14:05.420 author is long gone and certainly they're not writing books 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:09.630 that cover the same ground again. Basically, she's saying you 0:14:09.630 --> 0:14:12.150 started here and now, I want you to end here because I'm 0:14:12.150 --> 0:14:15.069 going to pick up the ball, and so it's hilarious. 0:14:15.130 --> 0:14:17.510 It just makes it so much harder, and it was 0:14:17.510 --> 0:14:19.210 so hard to begin with and I was so terrified 0:14:19.210 --> 0:14:21.109 of screwing it up, and then she's like, " Oh, here's 0:14:21.110 --> 0:14:23.830 something where you could screw up." But we've been very lucky 0:14:23.830 --> 0:14:25.520 on the show. I think the people who liked the 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:27.340 book like the show, which was really what I was 0:14:27.340 --> 0:14:30.610 trying to do, because that was me. They're not uncomfortable 0:14:30.610 --> 0:14:33.360 with the fact that there are differences in those two universes. 0:14:33.410 --> 0:14:36.050 It's not canon once a novel and it's certainly a 0:14:36.050 --> 0:14:39.030 novelist that deserves to build her own world and I'm 0:14:39.030 --> 0:14:41.350 building what I hope is a nice little set of 0:14:41.370 --> 0:14:44.530 DVDs to sit on the shelf between the two books, 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.900 so they add something. But you are kind of doing 0:14:48.020 --> 0:14:51.009 Oliver Twist, The Series and Oliver Twist is going to 0:14:51.010 --> 0:14:52.491 be around long after your series is gone. 0:14:52.491 --> 0:14:55.470 At the end of Season One that's the complete book of the 0:14:55.470 --> 0:14:58.040 Handmaid's Tale and then you kind of depart into your 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.520 story and Margaret has said that the characters really should 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:03.880 have been killed by now, in that world. They're getting 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:06.479 more outspoken, they're growing a lot, but also that that's 0:15:06.479 --> 0:15:09.090 not really possible in TV because you need your characters 0:15:09.090 --> 0:15:11.160 to stay alive, so that you can tell a story. 0:15:11.300 --> 0:15:13.920 So, how do you navigate that in keeping true to 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:16.810 the world you're building, but also making sure your characters 0:15:16.810 --> 0:15:17.400 are growing? 0:15:17.590 --> 0:15:20.990 It's very difficult that Margaret's write in one way, but in 0:15:20.990 --> 0:15:23.100 the other way. I think a lot of times especially 0:15:23.100 --> 0:15:28.519 this book has a particular construct that allows you to 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:32.030 believe exactly what I'm selling, which is this is a 0:15:32.030 --> 0:15:35.810 story told in retrospect, so you know she survived, by 0:15:35.810 --> 0:15:39.280 definition because The Handmaid's Tale exists. The Handmaid lasted long enough 0:15:39.530 --> 0:15:43.050 to tell that tale. So yes, but with the construct 0:15:43.050 --> 0:15:45.070 of the show the fact that it is a story 0:15:45.070 --> 0:15:48.040 told in retrospect, a collection of tapes that someone found, 0:15:48.150 --> 0:15:50.920 the fact is, we know she lives until that point. 0:15:50.990 --> 0:15:53.520 So, in terms of off- read the conceit of the 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:56.000 show, and I'm not going to break that is, this is 0:15:56.100 --> 0:15:58.620 her story. She lived to tell it and she's not 0:15:58.620 --> 0:16:00.410 going to die before she gets to tell it. It 0:16:00.410 --> 0:16:03.359 may be unlikely that you live, but almost all stories 0:16:03.359 --> 0:16:05.979 that come out of a situation like that, that are 0:16:05.979 --> 0:16:08.200 as singular and notable as this would be the story 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:11.100 of someone who did something unusual and survived. That wouldn't 0:16:11.100 --> 0:16:13.690 be the normal story, so she's right, they would be 0:16:13.690 --> 0:16:15.600 killed. We're trying to stay true to the world. What 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.260 I tried to do is make sure that more often 0:16:18.260 --> 0:16:20.509 than not, I just do it. If someone should get 0:16:20.510 --> 0:16:22.920 punished, they're punished. I mean, everybody is protected by their 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:26.580 fertility more at times than others because fertility rates are 0:16:26.580 --> 0:16:29.440 going up and down. But I have to get some 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.129 buy in from the audience in order to continue and 0:16:32.130 --> 0:16:34.930 not pass the baton to another group of actors, and 0:16:34.930 --> 0:16:37.270 I would rather not do that. I feel like the 0:16:37.270 --> 0:16:39.560 big thing in TV is you're very connected to these 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:42.280 people. You know there's a difference between TV and movies. 0:16:42.300 --> 0:16:44.619 TVs in your house. You're bringing those people in your 0:16:44.620 --> 0:16:47.100 house, it's very different. I think it's harder to change 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:49.520 your point of view and your guide in the TV 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:52.450 show. You can have a movie with a horrible antihero, who 0:16:52.450 --> 0:16:54.410 you don't want to spend more than two hours with. 0:16:54.740 --> 0:16:57.790 But June Osborne's been holding your hand for years, you 0:16:57.790 --> 0:17:01.710 have to kind of make some concessions, so that she retains her 0:17:01.710 --> 0:17:02.730 position as your guide. 0:17:05.250 --> 0:17:06.650 Yeah. I think we all like inviting Elisabeth Moss into our house. 0:17:06.740 --> 0:17:09.070 I certainly like it. She's delightful. 0:17:09.220 --> 0:17:11.300 How did you find her? How did she come on 0:17:11.300 --> 0:17:14.640 board and Has she affected the development of June? 0:17:15.210 --> 0:17:18.820 To answer the end first, absolutely 100% in a zillion ways 0:17:18.820 --> 0:17:21.100 and I'll talk about them, but of course, it's the 0:17:21.100 --> 0:17:23.820 great benefit of television, which is in a movie, you 0:17:23.820 --> 0:17:25.729 write a script you give it to someone else and 0:17:25.730 --> 0:17:28.419 then you see it, you go, " Wow. Okay, they didn't 0:17:28.419 --> 0:17:31.909 really have chemistry," but in TV, you watch the day's 0:17:31.909 --> 0:17:33.689 work and you go, " Whoa, those two people have chemistry, 0:17:33.690 --> 0:17:38.000 let's get together. And for Lizzie, Lizzie is a spectacular 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:40.639 professional. She's been doing it a very long time. She 0:17:40.639 --> 0:17:42.880 could not be a better number one on the call, 0:17:43.139 --> 0:17:46.700 in terms of professionalism and welcoming other actors. She's also an EP 0:17:47.300 --> 0:17:50.260 on the show and does that job in total, in 0:17:50.260 --> 0:17:52.669 full. She's done it from the beginning and she didn't 0:17:52.669 --> 0:17:55.389 want it to be a title and I wanted to 0:17:55.389 --> 0:17:58.139 help and we work very well together. So, I think 0:17:58.389 --> 0:18:02.930