1 00:00:02,580 --> 00:00:06,960 S1: From CurtCo Media. Coming up on the show, 2 00:00:07,470 --> 00:00:10,320 S2: 50000 Western Lowland Gorilla, if you like a little bit 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:14,340 S2: of exercise, everything's on foot. You follow these elephant trails 4 00:00:14,340 --> 00:00:17,610 S2: through these forests and you get to go tracking these 5 00:00:17,610 --> 00:00:19,200 S2: gorillas with nobody else. 6 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,639 S3: That's safari expert Wil Jones. I'm Bruce Wallin, and this 7 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:37,350 S3: is travel that matters. Hey, everybody, and welcome to travel, 8 00:00:37,350 --> 00:00:40,650 S3: that matters. I'm your host, Bruce Wallin, and I've got 9 00:00:40,650 --> 00:00:43,500 S3: a question for you. Do you think it's possible to 10 00:00:43,500 --> 00:00:47,700 S3: do something that's not on Google? I had never really 11 00:00:47,700 --> 00:00:50,010 S3: thought about that question until I caught up with an 12 00:00:50,010 --> 00:00:53,250 S3: old friend of mine. Will Jones a few weeks back. 13 00:00:53,730 --> 00:00:56,460 S3: Will is the founder of safari company Journeys by Design, 14 00:00:56,460 --> 00:00:59,490 S3: and he's one of the most creative and passionate people 15 00:00:59,490 --> 00:01:02,400 S3: I have met in the world of travel. He's constantly 16 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:04,980 S3: looking at new ways to approach African adventures, and he's 17 00:01:04,980 --> 00:01:08,550 S3: currently on a mission to uncover experiences that you can't 18 00:01:08,550 --> 00:01:12,090 S3: find with an internet search. He calls it off Google Travel, 19 00:01:12,090 --> 00:01:15,360 S3: and for will, that means wild adventures that no one 20 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:17,820 S3: else is doing. And yet they're done in a way 21 00:01:17,819 --> 00:01:21,929 S3: that's safe and surprisingly high end luxury journeys by design. 22 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,270 S3: Ashley organized a trip for my family a few years back, 23 00:01:24,270 --> 00:01:27,450 S3: and we went to this extremely remote national park in 24 00:01:27,450 --> 00:01:30,690 S3: Zambia called Leo a plane. There's only one lodge in 25 00:01:30,690 --> 00:01:33,209 S3: the entire park, and we were the only guests there. 26 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:35,640 S3: Now this is a 13 500 square mile park. It's 27 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,880 S3: about three times the size of Los Angeles, and we 28 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:43,770 S3: did not see another tourist the entire time we were there. Now, admittedly, 29 00:01:43,770 --> 00:01:46,710 S3: that's not for everybody. My teenagers, for one, they didn't 30 00:01:46,709 --> 00:01:48,360 S3: really like that part of the trip as much as 31 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,520 S3: they did others when we were staying places where there 32 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,700 S3: are other other people. But I personally loved it. I'll 33 00:01:53,700 --> 00:01:56,370 S3: tell you, we had an experience when we visit a 34 00:01:56,370 --> 00:01:59,340 S3: school there. It was a tiny village about three hours 35 00:01:59,340 --> 00:02:02,370 S3: by car from the camp and we were there. Our 36 00:02:02,370 --> 00:02:05,400 S3: guide told us it was probably the first time these 37 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,250 S3: kids at the school that we visited had ever seen 38 00:02:08,250 --> 00:02:11,670 S3: a foreigner their age. They'd seen adults before, but never 39 00:02:11,669 --> 00:02:14,730 S3: another kid. And it was almost like this whole scenario 40 00:02:14,730 --> 00:02:16,619 S3: had flipped. And they were, you know, they were as 41 00:02:16,620 --> 00:02:19,470 S3: interested in us as we were in them. And to 42 00:02:19,470 --> 00:02:22,710 S3: see the mutual curiosity between my kids and the kids 43 00:02:22,710 --> 00:02:26,820 S3: from this village was incredible. So we're going to talk 44 00:02:26,820 --> 00:02:28,860 S3: to Will about how he pulls off some of these 45 00:02:28,860 --> 00:02:32,400 S3: amazing adventures, as well as the very cool conservation and 46 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,740 S3: community work that comes out of them. But he's also 47 00:02:34,740 --> 00:02:37,830 S3: going to give us his expert recommendations for every type 48 00:02:37,830 --> 00:02:42,210 S3: of safari goer, the best destinations, itineraries, camps, whether it's 49 00:02:42,210 --> 00:02:45,119 S3: your first time on safari or you're a seasoned vet 50 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:49,380 S3: of the sub-Saharan circuit. Well, so great to have you 51 00:02:49,380 --> 00:02:51,090 S3: on travel that matters today, thanks for joining us. 52 00:02:51,450 --> 00:02:52,110 S2: Thanks, Bruce. 53 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,310 S3: OK, I want to start off with the poll of inaccessibility. 54 00:02:56,550 --> 00:02:58,110 S3: You and I had talked a couple of weeks back 55 00:02:58,110 --> 00:03:00,450 S3: and you casually mentioned that your friend is building a 56 00:03:00,450 --> 00:03:03,990 S3: camp right near the pole of inaccessibility. I consider myself 57 00:03:03,990 --> 00:03:07,230 S3: a pretty well-traveled person, but I had no idea what 58 00:03:07,230 --> 00:03:10,860 S3: that was. So tell us what is the pull of 59 00:03:10,860 --> 00:03:13,970 S3: inaccessibility and why on earth is your friend building a 60 00:03:13,980 --> 00:03:14,400 S3: camp there? 61 00:03:15,270 --> 00:03:16,740 S2: I'll be honest with you, I hadn't heard of a 62 00:03:16,740 --> 00:03:20,160 S2: poll of inaccessibility until about two months ago when I 63 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,799 S2: was talking to a friend of mine called at Ghawi, 64 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,550 S2: who's in search of giant tigerfish. So the freshwater fish, 65 00:03:26,550 --> 00:03:29,760 S2: which is a, you know, favorite amongst anglers. But there 66 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,730 S2: is a Goliath tigerfish on the Chunka River and Jenko 67 00:03:32,730 --> 00:03:36,690 S2: National Park and eastern Central African Republic and miles from nowhere. 68 00:03:36,690 --> 00:03:38,010 S2: And I was just talking to him the other day 69 00:03:38,010 --> 00:03:39,840 S2: and he was talking about the fact that he'd built 70 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,930 S2: a camp 90 miles from the pole of inaccessibility. There 71 00:03:42,930 --> 00:03:45,480 S2: is one on each continent, and gosh, it really gets 72 00:03:45,630 --> 00:03:49,470 S2: the juices flowing, doesn't it? It's exciting. It's appealing, it's wild. 73 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,590 S3: And so for the listeners, I have since googled the 74 00:03:52,590 --> 00:03:55,590 S3: Polar Mint accessibility, obviously, and it is the point on 75 00:03:55,590 --> 00:03:59,100 S3: every continent that is the farthest away from any body 76 00:03:59,100 --> 00:04:03,150 S3: of ocean. Correct? Yes. Yes. So in Africa, that is 77 00:04:03,150 --> 00:04:06,060 S3: somewhere in the Central African Republic where there are giant 78 00:04:06,090 --> 00:04:10,080 S3: Goliath tigerfish that this guy wants to go after. So 79 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,020 S3: I think that that's actually a great place to to 80 00:04:13,020 --> 00:04:15,720 S3: transition into your concept of off Google Travel. I would 81 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:17,820 S3: say that that even though I did find, you know, 82 00:04:17,820 --> 00:04:21,450 S3: pull of inaccessibility on Google, it's just this camp is 83 00:04:21,450 --> 00:04:23,820 S3: pretty much off Google Travel. So I love this idea 84 00:04:23,820 --> 00:04:26,910 S3: of traveling differently, of going places that other tourists aren't 85 00:04:26,910 --> 00:04:29,820 S3: going and doing things that other tourists aren't doing. But 86 00:04:29,820 --> 00:04:32,820 S3: with all the information out there about seemingly every destination 87 00:04:32,820 --> 00:04:34,980 S3: on Earth, like is that even possible anymore? 88 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,890 S2: It is possible and it's happening now. We've got a 89 00:04:37,890 --> 00:04:42,090 S2: database of nearly 50 experiences, which are described as being 90 00:04:42,510 --> 00:04:46,349 S2: broadly or entirely off Google. So, yeah, it is possible, 91 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:51,750 S2: but it obviously represents the results of a long journey. 92 00:04:52,020 --> 00:04:55,290 S2: You can't just go and put your pin on a 93 00:04:55,290 --> 00:04:57,660 S2: map and say, This is off Google and I know 94 00:04:57,660 --> 00:05:01,380 S2: where it is and let's go there. It resides broadly 95 00:05:01,380 --> 00:05:04,260 S2: in my head. And I think that's a big part 96 00:05:04,260 --> 00:05:06,510 S2: of the point here is that actually, in order to 97 00:05:06,510 --> 00:05:10,290 S2: access these areas, it's in large part in the hands 98 00:05:10,290 --> 00:05:15,300 S2: of private guides hosts who have relationships that are not 99 00:05:15,300 --> 00:05:20,010 S2: necessarily written down or aren't sort of reflected on a 100 00:05:20,010 --> 00:05:24,630 S2: platform where Google can commoditize it and commercialize it. I 101 00:05:24,630 --> 00:05:28,890 S2: think it's the big opportunity. I think it's also really 102 00:05:28,890 --> 00:05:32,940 S2: important that we go down this route because one for 103 00:05:32,940 --> 00:05:37,680 S2: the spirit of adventure, two for the low impact environmental paradigm, 104 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,820 S2: if you like. But three, because businesses need to stay relevant, 105 00:05:41,820 --> 00:05:43,980 S2: you identify your niche and drill into it. 106 00:05:44,430 --> 00:05:47,159 S3: Yes, I totally agree with you on that. However, sometimes 107 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,099 S3: people just want to go on an amazing safari and 108 00:05:50,100 --> 00:05:52,500 S3: stay in the best camps and see that the big 109 00:05:52,500 --> 00:05:54,970 S3: five and do all that. So how do you do? 110 00:05:54,990 --> 00:05:56,820 S3: Do you know? Tell me a little bit about that. 111 00:05:56,830 --> 00:05:58,470 S3: You know, when you have a client first time safari 112 00:05:58,470 --> 00:06:01,200 S3: go or, you know, they want to just do absolutely 113 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:02,460 S3: right and have the best year possible. 114 00:06:03,060 --> 00:06:05,310 S2: So we would define that as a classic. And with 115 00:06:05,430 --> 00:06:08,720 S2: with rare, it's very difficult to stitch a whole rare 116 00:06:08,730 --> 00:06:11,010 S2: program together by the very nature of where there aren't 117 00:06:11,010 --> 00:06:12,990 S2: that many of them. So it's quite difficult to stitch 118 00:06:12,990 --> 00:06:15,600 S2: a whole rare program together. So we still rely on 119 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,760 S2: your classic. So take, for example, all a national park. 120 00:06:19,770 --> 00:06:22,109 S2: And again, this is a bit and I'll come onto 121 00:06:22,110 --> 00:06:26,099 S2: the classic. But Republic of Congo Italian National Park, some 122 00:06:26,100 --> 00:06:30,390 S2: really lovely camps in there and gaga land go and 123 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:35,140 S2: on vocal access to 50000 western lowland gorilla run by 124 00:06:35,150 --> 00:06:38,400 S2: a company called the Congo Conservation Company. I mean, it's really, 125 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:44,489 S2: really awesome off-grid gorilla focused park wildlife experience. But the 126 00:06:44,490 --> 00:06:48,359 S2: quality of accommodation is fantastic. I would also argue this 127 00:06:48,510 --> 00:06:51,299 S2: luxury is defined more as space and the caliber of 128 00:06:51,300 --> 00:06:54,030 S2: guides that host you, as opposed to the chandelier above 129 00:06:54,029 --> 00:06:57,300 S2: the bathtub. However, for those that do want that soft 130 00:06:57,300 --> 00:07:01,530 S2: adventure and that soft experience into better known sort of 131 00:07:01,529 --> 00:07:06,170 S2: parks and reserves, I mean, Africa is brimming with extraordinary council, 132 00:07:06,180 --> 00:07:09,330 S2: which as you are spoilt for choice, we tend to 133 00:07:09,330 --> 00:07:11,250 S2: do that in a very private fashion. We tend to 134 00:07:11,250 --> 00:07:14,750 S2: book up private camps or using private charter aircraft to 135 00:07:14,970 --> 00:07:21,450 S2: high level of luxury meets specialism meets meets frontier. And 136 00:07:21,450 --> 00:07:25,260 S2: so our job as a an international specialist, if you 137 00:07:25,260 --> 00:07:28,890 S2: like that has no financial interest in any of those 138 00:07:28,890 --> 00:07:32,260 S2: businesses is to choose which ones make sense and deposits 139 00:07:32,310 --> 00:07:35,370 S2: east and southern Africa. You're spoilt for choice and that's 140 00:07:35,370 --> 00:07:37,470 S2: been part of the problem as well is that there's 141 00:07:37,470 --> 00:07:41,130 S2: been so much inward investment into parks and into those 142 00:07:41,130 --> 00:07:44,490 S2: safari lands for want of a better description that actually 143 00:07:44,850 --> 00:07:48,390 S2: you start to lose the edge of the. Wilderness and 144 00:07:48,390 --> 00:07:50,580 S2: the solitude and the frontier that I think a lot 145 00:07:50,580 --> 00:07:54,060 S2: of us travel for and which pushes us into this 146 00:07:54,510 --> 00:07:57,510 S2: rare space, which is why we look at our atrocious, 147 00:07:57,510 --> 00:07:59,730 S2: why we look at Sudan and Chad and the others, 148 00:07:59,730 --> 00:08:03,390 S2: because in 20 years, that's where the next frontier lies. 149 00:08:04,290 --> 00:08:07,380 S3: So you've mentioned, you know, these private maybe buying out 150 00:08:07,380 --> 00:08:08,910 S3: a camp, things like this. I just to put this 151 00:08:08,910 --> 00:08:12,270 S3: in perspective. A lot of your clients are high profile people. 152 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,940 S3: I know you've taken Ralph Lauren on on safari, on 153 00:08:14,940 --> 00:08:17,580 S3: a private safari and other very high profile people who 154 00:08:17,580 --> 00:08:20,790 S3: you may or may not feel comfortable mentioning. Tell me 155 00:08:20,790 --> 00:08:23,210 S3: a little bit how that works about, you know, like 156 00:08:23,310 --> 00:08:26,160 S3: taking Ralph Lauren on safari. You know, is it that mix? 157 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,500 S3: Where where do you go? Do that is at camp buyouts. 158 00:08:28,500 --> 00:08:30,840 S3: And I mean, it just kind of shows how at 159 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:32,520 S3: what level this can be done at. 160 00:08:33,270 --> 00:08:36,329 S2: So like I say, we've got so much choice that 161 00:08:36,330 --> 00:08:39,449 S2: we are in that very privileged position of being able 162 00:08:39,450 --> 00:08:45,089 S2: to curate a journey that has access to diverse culture, 163 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,380 S2: diverse ecosystems that support a whole heap of different types 164 00:08:49,380 --> 00:08:52,740 S2: of wildlife, a whole range of different camps and lodges 165 00:08:52,740 --> 00:08:55,380 S2: that we can that we can pick from the majority 166 00:08:55,380 --> 00:08:59,489 S2: of which are seasonal or permanent camps. But where I 167 00:08:59,490 --> 00:09:03,089 S2: think the real specialism lies and where I think the 168 00:09:03,090 --> 00:09:08,550 S2: true luxury lies is in the fully mobile safari that 169 00:09:08,550 --> 00:09:11,880 S2: is intertwined into all of this. So it's like going on, 170 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,870 S2: you know, your early adventures going into Africa on those 171 00:09:15,870 --> 00:09:17,729 S2: mobile safaris, we will go in and set up a 172 00:09:17,730 --> 00:09:20,670 S2: camp in advance of their arrival. It might take three 173 00:09:20,670 --> 00:09:23,630 S2: days to put that camp together. The client might come in. 174 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,730 S2: We'll spend three days there will then pack that camp 175 00:09:26,730 --> 00:09:28,860 S2: up as they the clients then head off to a 176 00:09:28,860 --> 00:09:32,280 S2: fixed lodge somewhere up in the central highlands of Kenya. 177 00:09:32,490 --> 00:09:35,459 S2: And in that time, that mobile then is repositioned and 178 00:09:35,460 --> 00:09:38,700 S2: is set up again and in another park in another 179 00:09:38,700 --> 00:09:40,950 S2: part of Kenya. I'm just using Kenya as an example 180 00:09:40,950 --> 00:09:43,350 S2: here so that the client then comes out of their 181 00:09:43,500 --> 00:09:46,140 S2: last fixed lodge and into that private mobile camp, and 182 00:09:46,170 --> 00:09:48,870 S2: they meet the same crew and they see the same guides. 183 00:09:48,870 --> 00:09:53,520 S2: And they have that continuity of journey again, relationships with 184 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,819 S2: the staff and with the guides and then being able 185 00:09:56,820 --> 00:10:00,720 S2: to build in complete flexibility, say a private camps, private vehicles. 186 00:10:00,990 --> 00:10:03,329 S2: If you're up at the top end, we've got helicopters 187 00:10:03,330 --> 00:10:06,000 S2: that are on standby. We might book out a whole 188 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,670 S2: ranch and you might just do off ranch activities and 189 00:10:08,670 --> 00:10:11,520 S2: come back home at the end of each day. So 190 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,819 S2: it's about knowledge. It's about your ability to tell a 191 00:10:14,820 --> 00:10:17,610 S2: story over a map. It's about being able to understand 192 00:10:17,610 --> 00:10:20,400 S2: the contours of that land. It's not an itinerary, and 193 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,949 S2: it's about being brave enough to go off plan because 194 00:10:22,950 --> 00:10:24,660 S2: all the best stuff happens off plan. 195 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,660 S3: So I want to go through a few different scenarios 196 00:10:27,660 --> 00:10:30,060 S3: with you, and I want your recommendations on on where 197 00:10:30,059 --> 00:10:32,280 S3: we should go, what we should do. You know where 198 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,760 S3: we should say, first up, OK, here's a person, a couple, 199 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,340 S3: whatever never been on safari. They're looking at this maybe 200 00:10:38,340 --> 00:10:40,920 S3: as a once in a lifetime trip. Where should they 201 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:41,490 S3: go and why? 202 00:10:42,179 --> 00:10:45,810 S2: I think if it's a one off, it's either Botswana 203 00:10:45,809 --> 00:10:49,770 S2: or Tanzania. Why? Because I think if you're going to 204 00:10:49,860 --> 00:10:55,380 S2: zero in on the two epicenter wildlife experiences, and if 205 00:10:55,380 --> 00:10:57,929 S2: you're going once that, you know, it's key that that's 206 00:10:57,929 --> 00:11:01,740 S2: part of the part of the mosaic is your wildebeest 207 00:11:01,860 --> 00:11:05,790 S2: carving on the southern plains of the Serengeti in January February. 208 00:11:05,790 --> 00:11:09,270 S2: So that's the Tanzania one option or is the Okavango 209 00:11:09,270 --> 00:11:13,650 S2: Delta in Botswana, which is equally extraordinary, completely different, but 210 00:11:13,650 --> 00:11:17,790 S2: equally extraordinary. And then, you know, you have Zerafa, you've 211 00:11:17,790 --> 00:11:20,670 S2: got the Great Plains camps there. You've got some really 212 00:11:20,670 --> 00:11:24,059 S2: fantastic premier level camps in the Delta, as you do 213 00:11:24,059 --> 00:11:26,849 S2: in Tanzania. Tanzania has really raised its game in the 214 00:11:26,850 --> 00:11:29,730 S2: last sort of 10 or 15 years. And then with Tanzania, 215 00:11:29,730 --> 00:11:31,380 S2: you've got the East African coast as well. So if 216 00:11:31,380 --> 00:11:33,390 S2: you want to get down to Zanzibar, that's cool. And 217 00:11:33,390 --> 00:11:34,740 S2: that's a that's a fantastic journey. 218 00:11:34,740 --> 00:11:38,130 S3: Tanzania back. OK, so I've done this epic trip. I've 219 00:11:38,130 --> 00:11:41,760 S3: gone to the Serengeti and then skipped over to the, 220 00:11:41,820 --> 00:11:44,850 S3: you know, Zanzibar or whatever on the Tanzanian coast. And 221 00:11:44,850 --> 00:11:46,229 S3: you know, it was supposed to be a once in 222 00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:49,110 S3: a lifetime trip, but now I am completely hooked. Where 223 00:11:49,110 --> 00:11:49,740 S3: do I go next? 224 00:11:50,370 --> 00:11:53,250 S2: I think Kenya, Kenya, to my mind, I think of 225 00:11:53,250 --> 00:11:56,610 S2: all of them. Actually, Kenya is my favourite destination in 226 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,579 S2: the sense that it has the diversity that I don't 227 00:11:59,580 --> 00:12:02,430 S2: think anywhere else offers. And a big piece of that 228 00:12:02,429 --> 00:12:05,970 S2: is northern Kenyan. One third of Kenya's population live in 229 00:12:05,970 --> 00:12:07,800 S2: the top two thirds of that country, and you've got 230 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:12,960 S2: these different nine night logic and osmotic and Semitic cultural 231 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,410 S2: groups up in northern Kenya, the Masai, the Samburu, the 232 00:12:16,410 --> 00:12:19,620 S2: rain delay. And it's wild. You know, there's this is 233 00:12:19,620 --> 00:12:25,230 S2: community landscapes. It's unfenced, they're nomadic. They're rangelands. It's not 234 00:12:25,230 --> 00:12:27,750 S2: to say that it's not without its conflict, and it's 235 00:12:27,750 --> 00:12:33,510 S2: tension occasionally, but very rarely, almost never directed at travellers. 236 00:12:33,510 --> 00:12:36,750 S2: But the cultural mosaic up in northern Kenya, linking in 237 00:12:36,750 --> 00:12:39,480 S2: with some of the private reserves in the central highlands 238 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,300 S2: of Kenya. Linking in with your parks like the Maasai Mara, 239 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,480 S2: that is a really cool adventure in terms of second stage. 240 00:12:46,290 --> 00:12:49,920 S3: And I will say as a. Lately skewed Western perspective, 241 00:12:50,130 --> 00:12:52,170 S3: the first time I ever got off a plane in 242 00:12:52,170 --> 00:12:54,960 S3: the Maasai Mara, I remember looking out and thinking, Oh 243 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:59,010 S3: my God, this is what I always envisioned Africa. It 244 00:12:59,010 --> 00:13:02,190 S3: just it looks like Africa to someone who you know, 245 00:13:02,220 --> 00:13:04,220 S3: grew up watching wildlife shows or what it's just like. 246 00:13:04,230 --> 00:13:06,270 S3: It's the picture that you have in your head from 247 00:13:06,420 --> 00:13:09,059 S3: out of Africa or whatever it is. And it's so 248 00:13:09,059 --> 00:13:12,359 S3: incredibly striking that landscape, but it just makes you feel like, 249 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,390 S3: Oh my God, I have arrived. I'm here. OK, so 250 00:13:15,390 --> 00:13:18,050 S3: we're going to work on Kenya next. Actually, let's switch directions. 251 00:13:18,750 --> 00:13:24,510 S3: Family Safari, you've arranged one for me, multigenerational. I got grandparents. 252 00:13:24,510 --> 00:13:27,210 S3: I got pre-teens, I've got teens, I got the parents. 253 00:13:27,210 --> 00:13:30,959 S3: So what is the best destination for that group? What? 254 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:32,850 S3: Everybody's going to have a fantastic time. 255 00:13:33,300 --> 00:13:36,480 S2: It generally boils down to one of two choices I'd 256 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,720 S2: say either South Africa or Kenya, the South Africa option 257 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:44,640 S2: being a softer landing into Africa. Probably, maybe a bit 258 00:13:44,730 --> 00:13:47,790 S2: more of a first timer where you can combine your 259 00:13:48,150 --> 00:13:56,310 S2: Cape Town, your winelands, your museums, your art galleries, exquisite 260 00:13:56,370 --> 00:14:00,570 S2: cuisine and attention to detail is sort of second to none. 261 00:14:00,570 --> 00:14:02,370 S2: I mean, the South Africans, you've got to take your 262 00:14:02,370 --> 00:14:04,800 S2: hats off to them. They do do it extremely well. 263 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,310 S2: Fantastic wildlife in the Kruger and you've got these private 264 00:14:08,309 --> 00:14:11,550 S2: safari villas, which actually works. And that part of the 265 00:14:11,550 --> 00:14:15,150 S2: reason why choose these two destinations because they've really developed 266 00:14:15,150 --> 00:14:17,990 S2: that family, private family safari villa thing where you can 267 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,310 S2: view the kids can make as much noise as they want, 268 00:14:20,310 --> 00:14:21,720 S2: jumping in and out of the pool. You've got your 269 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,390 S2: own kitchen, your own staff, your own chef, your own vehicles. 270 00:14:24,630 --> 00:14:27,840 S2: It works really, really well. Again, Kenya, a little bit wild, 271 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,570 S2: a little bit edgier, but up in the central highlands 272 00:14:30,570 --> 00:14:33,060 S2: of Kenya, which I just mentioned, there's a brilliant private 273 00:14:33,060 --> 00:14:37,830 S2: ranches with some brilliant private houses like Sierra or Harajuku. 274 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,590 S2: Superb little sort of bases that you can sort of 275 00:14:40,590 --> 00:14:43,650 S2: station yourself out and you have the complete run of 276 00:14:43,650 --> 00:14:46,470 S2: the place. So multigenerational works really well in South Africa 277 00:14:46,470 --> 00:14:46,890 S2: and Kenya. 278 00:14:47,550 --> 00:14:50,010 S3: Yeah, I mean, your point to Cape Town is, you know, 279 00:14:50,010 --> 00:14:53,460 S3: you've got incredible winelands there. You've got an amazing art 280 00:14:53,460 --> 00:14:55,560 S3: scene with the new museum that's opened up there. I mean, 281 00:14:55,560 --> 00:15:00,570 S3: it's incredible destination to complement that safari experience. I feel like, OK, 282 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,870 S3: so we've been to South Africa, we've been to Botswana, Kenya, 283 00:15:03,870 --> 00:15:07,290 S3: Tanzania now you're that seasoned event that we're talking about 284 00:15:07,290 --> 00:15:09,020 S3: and you want to push the envelope a little bit. 285 00:15:09,030 --> 00:15:10,600 S3: What where do I go and why? 286 00:15:11,070 --> 00:15:13,350 S2: If it was a different time, I would be suggesting 287 00:15:13,350 --> 00:15:18,300 S2: Ethiopia right now. I am wary of it because of 288 00:15:18,300 --> 00:15:20,700 S2: the civil unrest up in the north of the country. 289 00:15:20,700 --> 00:15:22,830 S2: Of course, that will settle at some stage, but it's 290 00:15:22,830 --> 00:15:26,280 S2: a complicated situation in Ethiopia, which would mean that I wouldn't. 291 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:31,110 S2: But under normal circumstances, somewhere like Ethiopia, mountainous early form 292 00:15:31,110 --> 00:15:35,250 S2: of Christianity, five of Africa's major river systems flowing out 293 00:15:35,250 --> 00:15:38,850 S2: of the Central Highlands, the highest concentration of islands anywhere 294 00:15:38,850 --> 00:15:43,320 S2: on the African continent. It's extraordinary. We've just been into Eritrea, 295 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,700 S2: which is also equally fascinating. We're doing mobile counts with 296 00:15:48,260 --> 00:15:50,700 S2: the Rashida who are these Red Sea coast traders that 297 00:15:50,700 --> 00:15:54,420 S2: came across from Saudi Arabia got 100 200 years ago. 298 00:15:54,810 --> 00:15:56,640 S2: I don't know any other company in the world that 299 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,220 S2: is doing that. That's another one of our rare off 300 00:15:59,220 --> 00:16:02,700 S2: Google experiences. Republic of Congo. I just mentioned it a 301 00:16:02,700 --> 00:16:07,410 S2: moment ago. Özal fantastic accommodation run by Congo conservation company 302 00:16:07,410 --> 00:16:11,430 S2: the park's amazing 50000 western lowland gorilla. If you like 303 00:16:11,430 --> 00:16:14,640 S2: a little bit of exercise, everything's on foot. You follow 304 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,880 S2: these elephant trails through these forests. You can only get 305 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,430 S2: through the forest because you're following these elephant trails. And 306 00:16:20,430 --> 00:16:23,160 S2: sometimes these elephant trails are like two feet under water 307 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:27,750 S2: and you can be wading through water, trekking, forest elephant 308 00:16:27,750 --> 00:16:31,140 S2: and forest buffalo and seeing some really unusual creatures like 309 00:16:31,140 --> 00:16:34,530 S2: yellow back Dyker. And you get to go tracking these 310 00:16:34,530 --> 00:16:37,350 S2: gorillas with nobody else. It just gives you an indication 311 00:16:37,350 --> 00:16:39,960 S2: of how little visited it is. If you're going to 312 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,770 S2: the mountain gorillas in Rwanda or Uganda, it's very strictly 313 00:16:43,770 --> 00:16:47,820 S2: controlled park permits and maximum number of people in $o. 314 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,840 S2: You immediately get separated. You get to maximum of two 315 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,540 S2: of you heading out with the local picnic push tracker 316 00:16:55,140 --> 00:16:57,870 S2: and you get the whole experience to yourself. It's pretty 317 00:16:57,870 --> 00:16:58,380 S2: mind blowing. 318 00:17:01,110 --> 00:17:02,640 S3: We're going to take a quick break and we'll be 319 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:04,830 S3: right back to talk to Wil Jones about some of 320 00:17:04,830 --> 00:17:08,760 S3: the rewards and risks to this type of off Google Travel. 321 00:17:15,140 --> 00:17:18,890 S1: On medicine, we're still practicing joined Dr. Stephen Takeback and 322 00:17:18,890 --> 00:17:22,459 S1: Bill Kurtis for real conversations with the medical professionals who 323 00:17:22,460 --> 00:17:24,620 S1: have their finger on the pulse of health care in 324 00:17:24,619 --> 00:17:28,760 S1: the modern world. Available on all your favorite podcasting platforms. 325 00:17:29,150 --> 00:17:30,380 S1: Produced by Kurt Coe Media. 326 00:17:34,940 --> 00:17:39,350 S3: What part does conservation, you know, community development investment? What 327 00:17:39,350 --> 00:17:42,260 S3: part do they play and these types of trips and 328 00:17:42,260 --> 00:17:43,910 S3: for journeys by design in general? 329 00:17:44,940 --> 00:17:48,600 S2: I have been committed to the idea of trying to 330 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,540 S2: prove that tourism is not the answer, but it is 331 00:17:51,540 --> 00:17:55,320 S2: extremely well placed for generating, I'd say, the lion's share 332 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:59,520 S2: of potential revenue opportunities back into conservation and development programs, 333 00:17:59,790 --> 00:18:03,000 S2: and it has eventually ended up with us going, you know, 334 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,070 S2: change by design. It's done really well out of Africa 335 00:18:05,070 --> 00:18:09,270 S2: and its assets that we now have a moral obligation 336 00:18:09,270 --> 00:18:11,850 S2: to protect those assets on which that businesses is dependent. 337 00:18:11,850 --> 00:18:15,750 S2: And also the, you know, you ain't got a business 338 00:18:15,750 --> 00:18:18,450 S2: no more. If that asset is so undermined that it 339 00:18:18,450 --> 00:18:21,510 S2: isn't worth visiting or isn't in good condition. So it's 340 00:18:21,510 --> 00:18:24,929 S2: a it's a moral obligation. And I do genuinely believe 341 00:18:24,930 --> 00:18:28,859 S2: that the world, particularly with COVID, has presented an opportunity. 342 00:18:29,190 --> 00:18:32,100 S2: The children of the future are not going to thank 343 00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:36,840 S2: us if we don't start taking this seriously. So our 344 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,419 S2: project is all about making as much money as we 345 00:18:39,420 --> 00:18:42,330 S2: can out of tourism, but redistributing that wealth as of 346 00:18:42,330 --> 00:18:45,540 S2: most as effectively as we can into into those programs 347 00:18:45,540 --> 00:18:46,470 S2: on on the ground. 348 00:18:46,830 --> 00:18:48,720 S3: Can you give me an example? So, for instance, a 349 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,359 S3: couple of years ago, you opened up Lollies Camp. Am 350 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,750 S3: I pronouncing that correctly? Lollies came in Ethiopia. So you know, 351 00:18:54,750 --> 00:18:57,119 S3: this is an area of Ethiopia that is not highly 352 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,760 S3: tourist did give me an example of how opening that 353 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,240 S3: camp is working towards those goals of conservation, of wildlife 354 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,689 S3: conservation or, you know, community development. And then also, you know, 355 00:19:06,690 --> 00:19:08,760 S3: building a sustainable model that's going to be able to grow. 356 00:19:09,390 --> 00:19:14,130 S2: So lawless camp is right down. And suddenly, Ethiopia is 357 00:19:14,130 --> 00:19:16,470 S2: the only camp on the Omo River, where the only 358 00:19:16,470 --> 00:19:18,930 S2: guys that operate a boat on a boat got 200 359 00:19:18,930 --> 00:19:22,560 S2: kilometres a stretch of river. I mean, it's wild. It's 360 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:28,090 S2: a very marginal community. It's an afro Asiatic community called ACARA. 361 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:30,869 S2: There are only about 2000 Qatar in the world. They 362 00:19:30,869 --> 00:19:34,890 S2: practice infanticide. They kill the children depending on particular beliefs, 363 00:19:35,070 --> 00:19:38,340 S2: which is why actually this particular population hasn't grown. But 364 00:19:38,430 --> 00:19:41,220 S2: we are investing in jobs, jobs really being the main 365 00:19:41,220 --> 00:19:44,880 S2: way of redistributing wealth back into local salaries that put 366 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,480 S2: bread on local children's table. So it's an impact investment 367 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,910 S2: that we've made. So we bought a company in Ethiopia, 368 00:19:50,910 --> 00:19:54,300 S2: started a company in Ethiopia. It is run by Ethiopians 369 00:19:54,300 --> 00:19:57,990 S2: for Ethiopians. We have a female Ethiopian country manager running 370 00:19:58,230 --> 00:20:01,500 S2: running that company for. And in the interests of Ethiopians. 371 00:20:01,500 --> 00:20:05,040 S2: And we have four local Ethiopian shareholders, one of whom 372 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:09,160 S2: is a local junior cadre elder called Lully Bula, who 373 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,390 S2: holds the keys to the valley. He is our man. 374 00:20:12,390 --> 00:20:15,449 S2: He opens up all of the doors to all of 375 00:20:15,450 --> 00:20:19,770 S2: the communities. So that is an example of a completely 376 00:20:19,770 --> 00:20:24,330 S2: off Google experience that we know firsthand, and it's all 377 00:20:24,330 --> 00:20:27,950 S2: about redistributing wealth back into those communities. So it's about rare. 378 00:20:28,260 --> 00:20:31,140 S2: It's about the social justice piece we have while philanthropy, 379 00:20:31,140 --> 00:20:34,109 S2: which can take their donations. But we also have and 380 00:20:34,109 --> 00:20:37,020 S2: this is really, really important, is the impact of investment 381 00:20:37,020 --> 00:20:41,970 S2: vehicle as well. It's primarily a trade, not aid model, 382 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,420 S2: but is trade and aid the two interplay really neatly 383 00:20:45,420 --> 00:20:48,540 S2: with each other? But actually, in terms of empowering and 384 00:20:48,540 --> 00:20:52,800 S2: motivating and incentivizing individuals on the ground in Africa, we 385 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,609 S2: think it's trade. It's about a respectful relationship between I 386 00:20:56,609 --> 00:20:58,980 S2: give you this and I expect this in return, not 387 00:20:59,130 --> 00:21:02,940 S2: I'm just going to give you this respectful trade relationship 388 00:21:02,940 --> 00:21:06,600 S2: with our partners on the ground. Is the primary driver 389 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,010 S2: in that model, right? 390 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:12,210 S3: Absolutely. And I mean, but that said, like clearly, philanthropy 391 00:21:12,210 --> 00:21:14,699 S3: plays a big part too. I know it's a priority 392 00:21:14,700 --> 00:21:17,460 S3: for for you guys and what you do for your clients. 393 00:21:17,850 --> 00:21:20,939 S3: I know you work with conservation organisations like African Parks. 394 00:21:20,940 --> 00:21:23,310 S3: They do the Leo, a plane park that I visit 395 00:21:23,310 --> 00:21:26,310 S3: in Zambia. How does that play out on your safaris, 396 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:27,570 S3: the philanthropic side? 397 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:30,300 S2: So I suppose, much like the way that journeys by 398 00:21:30,300 --> 00:21:34,920 S2: design works with our partners on the ground while philanthropy 399 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:39,060 S2: works alongside its conservation partners on the ground too. You 400 00:21:39,060 --> 00:21:44,160 S2: just mentioned African parks just then, you know, fantastic conservation 401 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:48,060 S2: agency primarily based out of South Africa, southern African model 402 00:21:48,060 --> 00:21:51,840 S2: rolling out and doing some really, really interesting work. And 403 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:56,280 S2: it's really interesting because it's the conservation organizations that have 404 00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:00,959 S2: access to landscapes at scale, which is where the real 405 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:05,310 S2: future opportunity of travel and rare and wilderness lies. So 406 00:22:05,310 --> 00:22:10,530 S2: working alongside partners like African Parks or WWF World Wildlife 407 00:22:10,530 --> 00:22:15,000 S2: Fund or FFI Fauna and Flora International, the conservation partners 408 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,109 S2: don't know really how to deliver tourism, and we struggle 409 00:22:19,109 --> 00:22:21,840 S2: to get access to landscapes. So there is this beautiful 410 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:26,490 S2: interplay where we can send families, for example, to Zambia 411 00:22:26,490 --> 00:22:30,480 S2: or Niassa up in northern Mozambique, which FFI is working with, 412 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,930 S2: or Pendlebury, where African parks have just opened something up 413 00:22:33,930 --> 00:22:39,540 S2: in Benin and through the sort of intelligent doorways of opportunity, 414 00:22:39,540 --> 00:22:42,600 S2: if you like, we are suddenly able to open up 415 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,260 S2: a whole new gateway of opportunity. For travellers to go 416 00:22:46,260 --> 00:22:53,070 S2: and mix in with conservation related, culturally related, environmentally related programs, 417 00:22:53,550 --> 00:22:56,609 S2: wildlife pieces, of course, important, but actually particularly when you're 418 00:22:56,609 --> 00:22:59,040 S2: traveling kids, I've often found particular with my own kids. 419 00:22:59,580 --> 00:23:02,389 S2: You know, the memories that they take home, that they 420 00:23:02,390 --> 00:23:05,609 S2: that sticks with them longest are actually the cultural social 421 00:23:05,609 --> 00:23:11,010 S2: interactions with Maasai warriors or local traditional cultures, because so 422 00:23:11,010 --> 00:23:14,669 S2: often they're so diametrically opposed. You know, maybe a kid 423 00:23:14,670 --> 00:23:17,850 S2: coming out of L.A. who assumes that drinking water comes 424 00:23:17,850 --> 00:23:19,889 S2: out of Tatton sort of takes that for granted and 425 00:23:19,890 --> 00:23:22,260 S2: then goes and visits a child, you know, in the 426 00:23:22,260 --> 00:23:25,710 S2: Mausi in the Omo Valley, for example, who is completely 427 00:23:25,710 --> 00:23:30,330 S2: naked and is covered in dust. That's not what they 428 00:23:30,330 --> 00:23:33,600 S2: all are, of course, but there is that really interesting 429 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:38,189 S2: educational element to this. It's inspiring. It inspires you to 430 00:23:38,190 --> 00:23:41,129 S2: come back, it inspires you to get involved. And tourism 431 00:23:41,130 --> 00:23:42,600 S2: is just a mechanism, 432 00:23:42,930 --> 00:23:46,080 S3: and that's clearly something that we experienced in Zambia at 433 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,260 S3: that school. But I also feel that there's a potential 434 00:23:49,260 --> 00:23:52,530 S3: drawback to places that are so remote or, you know, underexplored. 435 00:23:52,530 --> 00:23:55,530 S3: And and that's safety, right? I mean, you know, we've 436 00:23:55,530 --> 00:23:58,919 S3: talked about Central African Republic. And look, that's not a 437 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:00,510 S3: place that many people are going to want to go 438 00:24:00,510 --> 00:24:03,780 S3: on their next vacation and safety is a big, big 439 00:24:03,780 --> 00:24:06,120 S3: part of that. And so these types of trips, these 440 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,629 S3: off Google experiences, clearly there is a higher level of risk. 441 00:24:09,780 --> 00:24:11,250 S3: How do you guys manage that? 442 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,730 S2: So that is definitely one of the challenges. And it 443 00:24:14,730 --> 00:24:17,790 S2: comes with the territory, so to speak, by the very 444 00:24:17,790 --> 00:24:21,720 S2: nature of rare and frontier. What I would say, however, 445 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,889 S2: is that I think once you're actually fully understand fear 446 00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:32,550 S2: and the statistical probability of actually getting caught up in 447 00:24:32,550 --> 00:24:36,690 S2: some sort of, let's say, civil unrest in Germania, capital 448 00:24:36,690 --> 00:24:41,159 S2: of Central African Republic, or, you know, something happening in Massawa, 449 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,420 S2: which is the airport in Eritrea. Relative to your decision 450 00:24:45,420 --> 00:24:48,360 S2: to jump in a vehicle every day relative to your 451 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,790 S2: decision to go on an annual skiing holiday, we are 452 00:24:50,790 --> 00:24:54,330 S2: more likely to come home with some sort of spinal injury. 453 00:24:54,750 --> 00:24:58,980 S2: Getting it into perspective, I think, is very, very liberating, 454 00:24:58,980 --> 00:25:04,080 S2: and fear has such an insipid way of getting ourselves in. 455 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,970 S2: Not without really unpacking that fear. We can prevent ourselves 456 00:25:08,970 --> 00:25:11,459 S2: from doing all sorts of things in life. And so 457 00:25:11,460 --> 00:25:13,980 S2: I think I would encourage people to try and not 458 00:25:13,980 --> 00:25:17,550 S2: hold ourselves hostage to those remote statistics because actually, once 459 00:25:17,550 --> 00:25:21,060 S2: you do the relativity piece, that fear tends to melt 460 00:25:21,060 --> 00:25:22,830 S2: away like a mirage the closer you get to it. 461 00:25:23,730 --> 00:25:26,700 S3: As you know, most people aren't doing that relativity equations 462 00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:29,590 S3: and they're planning a trip. They it's it's just this 463 00:25:29,619 --> 00:25:32,940 S3: for for whatever reason, statistics don't don't play into that decision. 464 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:34,979 S3: I hear what you're saying, but still, you're going to 465 00:25:34,980 --> 00:25:36,449 S3: run into it. I'm sure you do all the time. 466 00:25:36,869 --> 00:25:39,030 S3: You know, these clients are people who are used to 467 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,240 S3: very high luxury, very, you know, the best of everything 468 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,240 S3: all the time, like, are some of these off Google destinations. 469 00:25:45,450 --> 00:25:48,240 S3: Is it possible to do this, these high adventures in 470 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,859 S3: a high luxury way? Or is it kind of a mix? 471 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:51,480 S3: How do you do that? 472 00:25:52,109 --> 00:25:54,840 S2: So we were selling about 100 safaris a year pre-COVID. 473 00:25:55,230 --> 00:25:57,960 S2: We think coming out of COVID and into this sort 474 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,590 S2: of rarer landscape, we will sell half that amount. So 475 00:26:01,590 --> 00:26:05,010 S2: we don't have the same aspirations as before. We're selling 476 00:26:05,010 --> 00:26:08,400 S2: a smaller business model. We're selling fewer trips to fewer 477 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,879 S2: people by design. And it's in that journey. It's a 478 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,820 S2: relationship piece that we have with our clients. So that 479 00:26:14,820 --> 00:26:17,369 S2: may be when we still get new inquiries, of course. 480 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,520 S2: And but the majority of that is repeatedly referred and 481 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,500 S2: we've been going for 20 odd years. So a lot 482 00:26:22,500 --> 00:26:24,810 S2: of the relationships that we have with our clients now 483 00:26:24,810 --> 00:26:28,230 S2: are as relationships and they've maybe travelled with us a 484 00:26:28,230 --> 00:26:32,250 S2: few times. And so eventually they get to this point like, Hey, well, 485 00:26:32,250 --> 00:26:34,590 S2: what do you what do you recommend now? Go, Well, OK, 486 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,230 S2: I think you're ready to go and do one of 487 00:26:37,230 --> 00:26:40,800 S2: these trips and do you trust me? Yes, we trust you. Sure, 488 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,929 S2: we're going to do that together. Yes, we'll go and 489 00:26:42,940 --> 00:26:44,790 S2: do it together. So I think it's about trust. A 490 00:26:44,790 --> 00:26:46,980 S2: lot of it is about trust, and a lot of 491 00:26:46,980 --> 00:26:49,139 S2: it is about being narrow gauge or at it. We're 492 00:26:49,140 --> 00:26:51,419 S2: not trying to scale. We're not looking for growth, for 493 00:26:51,420 --> 00:26:55,469 S2: Christ's sakes, if we grow organically fantastic. But otherwise, I 494 00:26:55,470 --> 00:27:00,120 S2: think the new narrow gauge, environmentally sensitive journey is is 495 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,000 S2: more village ized. It's much smaller scale. 496 00:27:03,810 --> 00:27:06,600 S3: Let me ask you this. You are in the business 497 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,210 S3: of creating moments for your clients, and you have for many, many, 498 00:27:09,210 --> 00:27:11,310 S3: many clients, including myself. What was the last time that 499 00:27:11,310 --> 00:27:12,900 S3: you had a moment on safari? 500 00:27:13,770 --> 00:27:19,020 S2: So I was in Eritrea, if we define safari as 501 00:27:19,020 --> 00:27:24,119 S2: to travel as opposed to necessarily being just wildlife. We 502 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:28,950 S2: were in the Dahuk archipelago with a photographer called Don McCullen, 503 00:27:28,950 --> 00:27:32,220 S2: who's quite a famous war photographer who in his 80s 504 00:27:32,220 --> 00:27:35,010 S2: now he's had a triple heart bypass, and he wanted 505 00:27:35,020 --> 00:27:37,290 S2: to come with me to go and do a trip 506 00:27:37,330 --> 00:27:39,920 S2: into the archipelago, which is in the Red Sea, off 507 00:27:39,930 --> 00:27:45,419 S2: of off Eritrea. And we had found. These two little 508 00:27:45,420 --> 00:27:50,880 S2: islands called Doleful and Dugal, and we took a little 509 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,370 S2: fly cam on the boat and we went and set 510 00:27:53,369 --> 00:27:56,970 S2: the fly counts up on these little beaches and we 511 00:27:56,970 --> 00:28:01,560 S2: had basically run out of fish to eat. But we 512 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:06,380 S2: had some vegetables and we came up to this. We're 513 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,000 S2: out in the sea. We're sort of parked off from 514 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,490 S2: from the beaches, nobody around. We haven't seen anybody. We 515 00:28:11,490 --> 00:28:14,460 S2: didn't see a single of a traveler in the entire 516 00:28:14,460 --> 00:28:16,469 S2: two weeks that we travelled around there. And that was 517 00:28:16,470 --> 00:28:18,480 S2: just this moment. We came up to this fishing boat 518 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,709 S2: and we didn't exchange money. We just exchanged smiles and 519 00:28:22,710 --> 00:28:26,850 S2: a conversation and some bananas in return for two kingfish. 520 00:28:27,510 --> 00:28:29,610 S2: And we went on our way again. We ate that 521 00:28:29,609 --> 00:28:31,980 S2: kingfish on the beach that night in a tiny little 522 00:28:31,980 --> 00:28:34,070 S2: sort of canvas tent that we popped up on the side. 523 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,620 S2: Nothing fancy, but like I say, the luxuries in in 524 00:28:36,630 --> 00:28:39,630 S2: the frontier and the caliber of guys that that host you. 525 00:28:39,990 --> 00:28:42,840 S2: And I always remember, like, when was the last time 526 00:28:42,930 --> 00:28:46,560 S2: we traded like that? It felt like we'd gone back 527 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,860 S2: to some early roots and then wake up the next morning. 528 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,610 S2: And that fishing boat had actually anchored right off the 529 00:28:53,610 --> 00:28:56,430 S2: beach and the guys on the boat were praying towards 530 00:28:56,430 --> 00:28:59,040 S2: Mecca as the Sun was coming up. And it was 531 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:05,100 S2: just an extraordinarily powerful reminder of, I think, humanity and 532 00:29:05,100 --> 00:29:06,930 S2: where we've all come from and where we're going and 533 00:29:06,930 --> 00:29:10,350 S2: what we've lost in this journey towards modernization. And you 534 00:29:10,350 --> 00:29:14,970 S2: come back to the bridge where Homo Sapien effectively branched 535 00:29:14,970 --> 00:29:18,540 S2: out of Africa wasn't the Sinai, but was that bridge 536 00:29:18,540 --> 00:29:23,070 S2: between basically Eritrea and Yemen. And it was like very, 537 00:29:23,070 --> 00:29:27,000 S2: very powerful. I think we've lost our way in some 538 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,120 S2: ways in this journey towards modernization, we've lost a lot 539 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,380 S2: of what the traditional values and benefits of traditional society 540 00:29:34,380 --> 00:29:37,440 S2: taught us. And so that really got me just then. 541 00:29:38,460 --> 00:29:42,600 S3: That's amazing. The simple act like barter, a moment like 542 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,470 S3: that is what sticks with you and what is the fundaments. 543 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,550 S3: Not that it's not that it's not the chandelier in 544 00:29:47,550 --> 00:29:49,710 S3: the in the camp. Like you said, it's not. It's 545 00:29:49,710 --> 00:29:54,090 S3: that and that's what travel is all about. That's fantastic. Yeah. Well, 546 00:29:54,090 --> 00:29:56,600 S3: we will keep on supporting you will and journeys by design. 547 00:29:56,610 --> 00:29:58,260 S3: We wish you the best of luck and thank you 548 00:29:58,260 --> 00:30:00,330 S3: so much for joining us on travel. That matters. 549 00:30:00,650 --> 00:30:02,940 S2: Well, Bruce, thanks very much for having me. Really appreciate 550 00:30:02,940 --> 00:30:03,690 S2: the opportunity. 551 00:30:05,170 --> 00:30:08,650 S3: And now for the wall and wrap up, OK, I'm 552 00:30:08,650 --> 00:30:12,220 S3: slightly obsessed with this whole concept of off Google Travel, 553 00:30:12,700 --> 00:30:15,250 S3: but it's not just in Africa or on safari if 554 00:30:15,250 --> 00:30:18,890 S3: this is really something that can happen just about anywhere. 555 00:30:18,910 --> 00:30:21,160 S3: I mean, couple of years back, I was camping with 556 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,530 S3: my son and a couple of friends in the High 557 00:30:23,530 --> 00:30:26,140 S3: Sierras to set the stage a little bit. There had 558 00:30:26,140 --> 00:30:28,810 S3: been a drought in California for several years, so snow 559 00:30:28,810 --> 00:30:31,990 S3: levels had dropped way down, making certain parts of the 560 00:30:31,990 --> 00:30:35,620 S3: mountains accessible. That hadn't been in many, many years. And 561 00:30:35,740 --> 00:30:39,940 S3: my friend found this lake on some topographic map and 562 00:30:39,940 --> 00:30:42,300 S3: we just decided to go for it. So we started hiking. 563 00:30:42,310 --> 00:30:45,310 S3: We go the trail ends. We keep on going. We 564 00:30:45,310 --> 00:30:48,760 S3: were scaling waterfalls. We were like hacking our way through bushes. 565 00:30:49,510 --> 00:30:51,850 S3: And just when we were ready to quit, you know, 566 00:30:51,850 --> 00:30:54,160 S3: I was the first one ready to quit. I was 567 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,070 S3: done just that. We were about to quit. We come 568 00:30:57,070 --> 00:31:02,530 S3: over this ledge and before us is this magical sparkling 569 00:31:02,530 --> 00:31:05,890 S3: lake in, you know, with peaks rising all around it. 570 00:31:06,430 --> 00:31:08,680 S3: So we walked out of the water. We start, you know, 571 00:31:08,710 --> 00:31:11,710 S3: casting our fishing lines in there and we start catching 572 00:31:11,860 --> 00:31:16,360 S3: trout after trout. And I had this realization. This place 573 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,420 S3: hadn't been fished and who knows how long, like no 574 00:31:19,420 --> 00:31:23,140 S3: one had been to this lake in years. I can't 575 00:31:23,140 --> 00:31:25,390 S3: say that with any kind of authority, but I'm pretty 576 00:31:25,390 --> 00:31:28,420 S3: certain we're the only people crazy enough to go to 577 00:31:28,420 --> 00:31:31,900 S3: this place and this place had been inaccessible. And it 578 00:31:31,900 --> 00:31:34,810 S3: was a sense of like, Wow, we are doing something 579 00:31:34,810 --> 00:31:37,330 S3: that no one else has done. And that sense of 580 00:31:37,330 --> 00:31:40,240 S3: making a little extra effort and doing something that no 581 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,350 S3: one else had done, it was so rewarding and bonding. 582 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,670 S3: It's something my son and I still talk about, and 583 00:31:45,670 --> 00:31:48,970 S3: he cites it as his greatest travel memory ever. Now 584 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,690 S3: that experience our experience, it doesn't compare to some of 585 00:31:52,690 --> 00:31:56,800 S3: the stuff that Will is arranging in Ethiopia or Eritrea 586 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,760 S3: or wherever it is. But that concept, that concept of 587 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,970 S3: off Google Travel, it's something that we can all embrace, 588 00:32:04,300 --> 00:32:09,700 S3: no matter where in the world we are. We'd like 589 00:32:09,700 --> 00:32:11,950 S3: to thank Bill Jones for joining us today on travel. 590 00:32:11,950 --> 00:32:15,850 S3: That matters. For more information on luxury safaris with journeys 591 00:32:15,850 --> 00:32:19,360 S3: by design, please check out our show notes or visit 592 00:32:19,510 --> 00:32:23,469 S3: Ccurt Co dot com. This show is produced for cargo 593 00:32:23,470 --> 00:32:28,150 S3: media by A.J. Moseley and Doris Stone. Music by Joey Salvia. 594 00:32:28,870 --> 00:32:31,150 S3: I'm Bruce Wallen and we'll see you down the road. 595 00:32:37,300 --> 00:32:40,830 S1: Kurt Commedia. Media for your mind.