WEBVTT - 32 - O-T Fagbenle (Maxxx, Black Widow) 0:00:01.010 --> 0:00:02.150 From CurtCo media. 0:00:02.469 --> 0:00:03.140 There's no place like Hollywood. (music) 0:00:03.141 --> 0:00:18.119 Welcome to another stuck at home special of Hollywood Unscripted. 0:00:18.119 --> 0:00:21.069 I'm Jenny Curtis, and today we're virtually catching up with 0:00:21.070 --> 0:00:24.159 actor and creator O. T. Fagbenle. You probably know him 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:26.509 as Luke on the Handmaid's Tale, and if you haven't 0:00:26.509 --> 0:00:29.130 already, you'll soon be getting to know him better as 0:00:29.510 --> 0:00:32.599 Max. O. T., thank you for joining us. 0:00:32.940 --> 0:00:33.930 Oh, thanks for having me. 0:00:34.199 --> 0:00:36.760 So, you're in the middle of traveling right now. You 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:39.839 just traveled to London from Tanzania and today, the day 0:00:39.839 --> 0:00:43.070 of our recording, is the day that Maxxx drops on Hulu. 0:00:43.229 --> 0:00:43.519 Yeah. 0:00:43.559 --> 0:00:45.350 So, I'm sure it's been crazy. 0:00:45.500 --> 0:00:47.629 Yeah, it's been pretty busy. Yeah, yeah. Pretty good. Thoughts 0:00:48.589 --> 0:00:51.409 about press stuff and things and chatting to friends and 0:00:51.409 --> 0:00:53.559 stuff, but really, I've just got back to England from 0:00:53.559 --> 0:00:57.029 Tanzania, so it's a chance to socially distance, see my 0:00:57.029 --> 0:00:59.529 family for the first time, some of my younger siblings, 0:00:59.529 --> 0:01:01.190 so that's really the highlight of my day. 0:01:01.310 --> 0:01:04.970 Oh good. So, jumping into Maxxx, this is a show 0:01:04.970 --> 0:01:10.130 that you wrote, produced, co directed some episodes, are starring in, 0:01:10.130 --> 0:01:13.699 you're basically wearing all of the hats. Tell us about it. 0:01:13.700 --> 0:01:14.869 How did it begin? 0:01:15.030 --> 0:01:17.360 Well, I've been developing stuff for a while and some 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:19.619 shorts and the shorts in the awards circuits and all 0:01:19.619 --> 0:01:21.869 that kind of stuff, and then I basically had an 0:01:21.869 --> 0:01:25.330 opportunity, I pitched this idea to the channel about this 0:01:25.660 --> 0:01:28.229 pop star who is fading and trying to make a comeback, 0:01:28.229 --> 0:01:30.729 this kind of anti hero type thing and they really 0:01:30.770 --> 0:01:32.839 loved. They were like, " Great. Make it." And, I really 0:01:32.839 --> 0:01:36.459 had my executive brother, Luti made this pilot which is 0:01:36.459 --> 0:01:39.339 really like three shorts. They're on YouTube, and they really 0:01:39.339 --> 0:01:41.720 dug that and so they asked me to write some scripts and 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:44.420 so I wrote some scripts and then they commissioned the series. Obviously, 0:01:44.630 --> 0:01:49.051 it's a lot more circuitous than that, but that was the basic rundown of it. 0:01:49.050 --> 0:01:51.970 You were writing the scripts while you were shooting Handmaid's 0:01:51.970 --> 0:01:52.690 Tale, is that correct? 0:01:53.300 --> 0:01:55.940 Yeah, that's right. That's right. It took me a couple of 0:01:55.940 --> 0:01:58.590 years really, to get the six episodes down, start from 0:01:58.590 --> 0:02:01.300 scratch in a new series. And so, yeah, I'd write during Handmaid's. 0:02:01.300 --> 0:02:03.820 Actually after, I think it was the first or second series 0:02:03.820 --> 0:02:06.540 of Handmaid's, I then stayed in Toronto for a summer. 0:02:06.630 --> 0:02:08.960 I wrote there. But, a lot of the writing I did, or at least 0:02:09.109 --> 0:02:12.269 the development I did, I did work with professional improvisors from 0:02:12.269 --> 0:02:15.660 Second City. And so, we had some incredible Canadian actors 0:02:15.889 --> 0:02:19.169 and actresses come in and help me beat out the ideas. 0:02:19.430 --> 0:02:21.109 Are you a member of Second City or did you 0:02:21.109 --> 0:02:23.210 go there with the goal to work with them? 0:02:23.299 --> 0:02:26.609 No, you know what? It's one of those serendipitous things 0:02:26.609 --> 0:02:28.950 where the hotel I was staying at was across the 0:02:28.950 --> 0:02:31.609 road from Second City and I knew I like to work with 0:02:31.609 --> 0:02:34.910 actors and direct my way into writing and so I 0:02:34.910 --> 0:02:37.079 just walked in there and asked to see the principal, 0:02:37.079 --> 0:02:39.220 and I went on from there. 0:02:39.650 --> 0:02:41.609 What kind of work would you do with them while you 0:02:41.609 --> 0:02:44.070 were developing? Would you pitch them a scenario and just 0:02:44.070 --> 0:02:45.340 let them go for it? 0:02:45.620 --> 0:02:48.530 Yeah, so I was working with a script editor called Bruce Peery and 0:02:48.530 --> 0:02:52.130 he and I would sit down and we'd chat out 0:02:52.130 --> 0:02:54.980 our storylines. And so, we'd chat out a storyline, A story, B 0:02:54.980 --> 0:02:57.450 story, C story, these are obviously our main characters. These are our antagonists. 0:02:57.910 --> 0:03:01.660 They'll overlap. And then, I would come out with 16 0:03:01.660 --> 0:03:03.940 scenes. And so, I know what happens in a scene. 0:03:03.940 --> 0:03:07.220 I know that character A comes in wanting X from character 0:03:07.220 --> 0:03:09.899 B and there's going to be a conflict and at end of it, we're going 0:03:09.899 --> 0:03:11.859 to come out with solution C. And so, I would 0:03:11.859 --> 0:03:14.480 go in, I'd pitch the whole episode to the six 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:16.719 or seven actors we'd have there, and then I'd say, " 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:19.620 Right. We're going to start with scene one. You're playing character A, you're playing 0:03:19.620 --> 0:03:22.079 character B. This is what you want. This is what you want. 0:03:22.250 --> 0:03:24.730 Let's improvise it." And so, we'd improvise the scene and 0:03:24.730 --> 0:03:28.320 then I'd be like, " Okay, great, and we're going to make some changes. Character 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:30.280 A, you're going to be drunk, character B, you're going 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:32.820 to be more resistant and I'm going to replace actor 0:03:32.820 --> 0:03:34.760 to play character A with this other actor, and you 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:36.119 come in and let me see your version of it." And, 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:42.130 I would have men playing women, women playing men, black people playing white people, white people playing black people. It was a free for all and 0:03:42.130 --> 0:03:45.570 as it would develop, I would get more and more 0:03:45.570 --> 0:03:47.730 ideas which I'd put in and maybe we'd do each 0:03:47.730 --> 0:03:50.550 scene about three, four times. Anyway, we'd spend a day 0:03:50.750 --> 0:03:53.330 and in a day we'd get to about half an episode 0:03:53.330 --> 0:03:55.510 and then I would sit down in a coffee shop 0:03:55.510 --> 0:03:58.140 and I would just write and listen to the recordings. 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:01.760 And funnily enough, I'd be really interested to go back 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.540 and check it out, but there was very little actually verbatim 0:04:04.540 --> 0:04:08.030 that was taken from the improvisations. There definitely were bits, 0:04:08.030 --> 0:04:10.940 but a lot of times, it helped me flesh out and understand 0:04:11.530 --> 0:04:14.850 the characters understand different ways, unexpected ways that the jokes 0:04:14.850 --> 0:04:16.760 could go. And so, I would build on them and 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:18.969 write on them. But, they were such a valuable part of 0:04:19.339 --> 0:04:20.001 the process for sure. 0:04:20.001 --> 0:04:22.270 And, how long was that part of the process? 0:04:22.729 --> 0:04:24.539 What happened is, I wrote over the summer, and by the 0:04:24.539 --> 0:04:26.700 end of the summer, I had six episodes, so we would do, 0:04:26.700 --> 0:04:29.400 then I would go off and do rewriting and stuff like 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:32.849 that, and we were supposed to go into production that September 0:04:32.849 --> 0:04:37.900 I believe. There's a long story, but basically, we were going 0:04:37.900 --> 0:04:40.939 into pre production. We were casting. We were da, da, da, and the 0:04:40.940 --> 0:04:43.669 channel said, "Look, we want some changes. We're not ready to 0:04:43.669 --> 0:04:46.240 go into production yet." It was a heartbreaker. And, most 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:48.379 of the times when a channel tells you that, that means they 0:04:48.380 --> 0:04:51.740 are not going to make your show anymore. And, they reassured 0:04:51.740 --> 0:04:55.400 us that they were going to make the show and that they 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:59.239 just needed some changes. To be honest, I imagine there 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:01.640 was some politics involved. It wasn't all about the show, 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:06.070 but there were some issues with the show, but they kept 0:05:06.190 --> 0:05:10.479 their word and we retooled and rejigged and tweaked and 0:05:10.479 --> 0:05:14.330 improved and then made it the following year. So, that's probably the reason why 0:05:14.330 --> 0:05:14.969 it took so long to write. 0:05:15.339 --> 0:05:18.539 Were they story changes? Because the show itself can be 0:05:18.610 --> 0:05:21.919 very raunchy at times and really push the comedy. So 0:05:21.919 --> 0:05:24.339 was it that it went too far and you needed to pull back, or 0:05:24.349 --> 0:05:26.270 was it actual story that had to change? 0:05:27.099 --> 0:05:29.529 It's interesting. It's hard for me to see woods in 0:05:29.529 --> 0:05:32.020 the trees and I'd be very curious to read the 0:05:32.020 --> 0:05:35.900 first drafts and the last drafts, something I haven't done in that comparison, because 0:05:36.029 --> 0:05:40.589 from my tastes, they were very incremental changes that we 0:05:40.589 --> 0:05:43.349 actually made by the end of it. To be honest, there 0:05:43.359 --> 0:05:45.250 was some pushback on some fundamental things which I just 0:05:45.250 --> 0:05:47.390 said I wasn't going to do, changes that I just didn't 0:05:47.700 --> 0:05:50.739 believe we should make. To be fair, and kudos to 0:05:50.740 --> 0:05:54.790 all of the commissioners they had some great ideas, but also 0:05:55.010 --> 0:05:57.820 when I said, " Look this is really important to my 0:05:57.820 --> 0:05:59.869 vision of the show, they backed me." It took some 0:05:59.870 --> 0:06:02.339 push, but they backed me and I really appreciated them for 0:06:02.339 --> 0:06:06.060 that. So, I don't know. One of the episodes had quite fundamental plot 0:06:06.060 --> 0:06:10.990 changes and I think there was some development of the characters, 0:06:10.990 --> 0:06:14.229 in particular, Tamsin, the main female lead, I think there 0:06:14.229 --> 0:06:17.700 was some development to do there some rounding out of 0:06:17.700 --> 0:06:20.650 her character. So, those are some of the main ways that it 0:06:20.650 --> 0:06:24.890 improved. But also, a big part of it was also tuning up production wise. We brought on 0:06:24.890 --> 0:06:29.080 Phil Clark, the legendary executive producer. It was funny, because 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:33.140 we had a meeting and they said ... because me and my 0:06:33.140 --> 0:06:36.099 brother has got a long history of making music videos 0:06:36.099 --> 0:06:38.799 and some features, but never really had made television, and I never really 0:06:38.799 --> 0:06:41.150 made television, so there was a lack of experience on our 0:06:41.150 --> 0:06:43.809 team. They basically said, " Look, we need someone on your 0:06:43.810 --> 0:06:45.710 team that can tell us to fuck off, and right 0:06:45.710 --> 0:06:48.099 now, you don't have anyone who's got enough weight to 0:06:48.099 --> 0:06:49.759 tell us to fuck off." And so, we went and 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:51.650 got someone who could tell them to fuck off, who was 0:06:51.650 --> 0:06:54.559 Phil Clark, who never used that phrase, funnily enough. In 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:57.969 fact, almost the opposite. Phil was one of the secrets 0:06:57.969 --> 0:07:00.450 to being successful in the industry is how much shit 0:07:00.450 --> 0:07:04.109 you can eat. How much shit can you take and 0:07:04.109 --> 0:07:07.700 still keep going? And, that was very disheartening, but I think probably very 0:07:07.700 --> 0:07:08.320 good advice. 0:07:08.430 --> 0:07:12.020 Maxxx is about a formerly famous boy band member who 0:07:12.020 --> 0:07:14.500 is trying to make a come back as a solo 0:07:14.500 --> 0:07:19.239 artist and he is basically juggling his need to be 0:07:19.239 --> 0:07:22.960 authentic with his need to be loved and famous. And so, it's a 0:07:23.570 --> 0:07:26.750 really complicated character that must have been just absolutely fun 0:07:26.750 --> 0:07:29.360 to play. I'd love to hear about your process with him. 0:07:29.670 --> 0:07:34.610 Yeah, I guess in some ways, he echoed parts of 0:07:34.610 --> 0:07:41.069 my journey, of my, I guess, ambivalence between going for 0:07:41.070 --> 0:07:43.600 the art, I was a theater actor for many, many 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:46.780 years and very happy to it, and then also the idea 0:07:46.780 --> 0:07:49.470 of being popular and being on TV and stuff like 0:07:49.470 --> 0:07:53.189 that. So, I guess there was some of that autobiographically played out, 0:07:53.250 --> 0:07:56.580 and then also I'd gone through this terrible heartbreak and I was trying 0:07:56.580 --> 0:07:58.600 to recover from that, and so I guess that played out 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.989 a little bit as well. So, I guess developing him 0:08:02.130 --> 0:08:06.400 in some ways was a process of enhancing and over 0:08:06.450 --> 0:08:10.340 blowing and exaggerating lots of parts of myself I despise 0:08:10.679 --> 0:08:14.100 and then an opportunity to play them out. That's on 0:08:14.100 --> 0:08:17.440 a more personal level, but also as they developed, I realized that I 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:22.670 was interested in exploring a broader cultural phenomenon where because 0:08:22.670 --> 0:08:28.110 of social media, it's just some big validation act. We constantly 0:08:28.220 --> 0:08:31.989 put forward not our true selves but our idealized selves 0:08:31.989 --> 0:08:34.939 our presentation of ourselves, our ego, and we put it 0:08:34.939 --> 0:08:37.730 out there and we hope to be liked and then we might 0:08:37.730 --> 0:08:40.340 change what we post, depending on how much validation we 0:08:40.340 --> 0:08:44.449 get. And, it's quite an obscene process that evolves the 0:08:44.449 --> 0:08:47.329 mind in some ways of thinking that. I feel sorry for young people who are 0:08:47.380 --> 0:08:50.449 going up against the brilliant minds of Harvard and Yale, 0:08:50.709 --> 0:08:54.550 it's programming suites, trying to manipulate our fickle minds. So, 0:08:54.550 --> 0:08:56.770 I also wanted to talk about that. Not everyone is a 0:08:56.770 --> 0:08:59.480 pop star, but I think on some level, everyone who's 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:03.420 on social media has some kind of desire to be validated 0:09:03.420 --> 0:09:06.120 by their peers. So, the process of developing Max was a confluence of 0:09:07.220 --> 0:09:08.849 those two things. 0:09:09.209 --> 0:09:12.880 When you were writing him, knowing that you were going to play him, 0:09:13.020 --> 0:09:16.150 did you write with yourself in mind, or were you 0:09:16.150 --> 0:09:20.300 able to separate the two between writing and playing the character? 0:09:21.929 --> 0:09:27.589 My personal process generally as an actor is I don't 0:09:27.589 --> 0:09:31.530 ever see my characters as not me. I feel that they 0:09:31.530 --> 0:09:33.819 are me and I like to believe that there is 0:09:33.819 --> 0:09:36.780 quite a bit of differentiation between the characters I play. 0:09:36.900 --> 0:09:39.600 And so, the way that's achieved is just by leaning 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:42.510 into different parts of it. I once read this psychologist said 0:09:42.510 --> 0:09:44.650 that by the age of three, a human being has 0:09:44.650 --> 0:09:50.410 experienced every emotion, murderous rage, jealousy, love, because all of 0:09:50.410 --> 0:09:53.359 those things are in us in different quantities and so 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:56.709 I just believe that as I write each character and 0:09:56.709 --> 0:09:59.079 as I think about Maxxx, all of the characters are me. 0:09:59.339 --> 0:10:01.800 My son, is me. I was a geeky kid at 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:05.400 school who would get these terribly strong crushes and I 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:10.109 am Camden as well, that is sometimes socially awkward and probably 0:10:10.610 --> 0:10:14.420 unnecessarily verbose. And so, that's how I think about writing. 0:10:14.750 --> 0:10:18.700 If you're tapping into parts of yourself that aren't necessarily 0:10:19.189 --> 0:10:21.800 the comfortable parts of yourself. Are you able to leave 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:23.770 it on set or do you take it home with you? 0:10:24.740 --> 0:10:27.939 I did get accused of being a bit Maxish at various 0:10:27.939 --> 0:10:31.060 points. I guess I do find it hard to entirely 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:34.959 differentiate, and part of my process as an actor, even outside of Max is 0:10:34.959 --> 0:10:37.729 like ... I know some actors who can quick and turn it on. 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:40.569 They're there and they're having a cup of tea and chatting about ... they will 0:10:40.569 --> 0:10:43.699 gossip and they stick their fingers in there, the other character, and they're 0:10:43.699 --> 0:10:48.900 crying. Unfortunately, I don't have that capacity. I have really 0:10:48.900 --> 0:10:52.270 embody and live through. It's boring. I tell you. I 0:10:52.270 --> 0:10:56.309 wish I didn't have to, but over 20 years of being an actor, I've realized 0:10:56.309 --> 0:11:00.579 that that's what produces the best results for me. So, yeah. 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:01.569 So, Max comes home. 0:11:02.319 --> 0:11:07.569 Well, you know what? At the end of the day, I've got to have meaningful conversations with costume designers and 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:10.679 makeup artists and Nick Colette, the other director on it, 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:16.300 and not be a ... so, I'm not entirely Maxish, but there is 0:11:16.300 --> 0:11:17.609 some blurred lines I guess maybe. 0:11:17.829 --> 0:11:20.990 Now, your brother worked on this project with you as 0:11:21.079 --> 0:11:22.420 executive producer, Luti. 0:11:22.730 --> 0:11:23.739 Yeah, yeah, he did. 0:11:24.110 --> 0:11:26.990 What is it like working with family, because I do that 0:11:26.990 --> 0:11:29.439 as well and for me, it's a gift because you 0:11:29.439 --> 0:11:31.969 can support each other like nobody else can, but you 0:11:31.969 --> 0:11:34.089 can also call each other on your shit like nobody 0:11:34.089 --> 0:11:34.640 else can. 0:11:34.719 --> 0:11:37.520 Right. Yeah, I guess it all depends on what kinds of siblings you have. 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:41.510 My brother is one of the most inspirational people I know. He's 0:11:41.829 --> 0:11:46.079 incredible. He so, both supportive, but he dreams big and 0:11:46.079 --> 0:11:48.890 he's got big drive. He was born on the 24th of 0:11:48.890 --> 0:11:53.400 July, he was going 24/7. He doesn't stop and exactly that thing, we 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:56.329 were both desperate not to let each other down and 0:11:56.329 --> 0:11:59.240 to bring out the best in each other and we implicitly 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:03.670 trust the intentions of each other, which is to create the best 0:12:03.670 --> 0:12:07.069 work we can create. And so, yeah, it's one of 0:12:07.069 --> 0:12:09.510 the biggest joys in my life being able to create 0:12:09.510 --> 0:12:10.079 Max with him. 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:16.429 Other people who you worked with on this, one of 0:12:16.429 --> 0:12:20.719 which is Christopher Meloni who plays Don Wild, who is 0:12:20.719 --> 0:12:20.720 just insane. 0:12:20.721 --> 0:12:20.722 Yeah. 0:12:20.722 --> 0:12:25.780 He was so much fun. But also, he was in 0:12:25.780 --> 0:12:28.069 Handmaid's Tale. Is there a connection there or was that just 0:12:28.449 --> 0:12:30.250 a small world that you guys were both in that? 0:12:30.540 --> 0:12:33.429 Yeah. Weirdly enough it's the latter. I never met him 0:12:33.429 --> 0:12:37.010 on Handmaid's. I actually wanted him, asked for him because 0:12:37.010 --> 0:12:39.939 of his work on Happy, which I found so fun 0:12:39.939 --> 0:12:43.819 and unexpected. All his decisions were so interesting to me 0:12:44.010 --> 0:12:46.239 and I thought, " Wow, if we could get him ..." I 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:48.400 really didn't think we could and it was Luti again 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:51.220 with his expansive mindset which is like, we can get him, and 0:12:51.270 --> 0:12:52.800 we sent him the script. He fell in love with 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:54.869 it. And, we were just lucky enough that he was 0:12:54.870 --> 0:12:57.730 just on it, because we didn't have all the bells and 0:12:57.730 --> 0:13:01.199 whistles. We didn't have big trailers. We didn't have trailers. We 0:13:01.199 --> 0:13:05.629 had nothing. He really came and slummed it with us, God bless him. I don't know, I just 0:13:05.630 --> 0:13:07.120 think he's brilliant in this. 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:10.059 Speaking of not having trailers and all the bells and whistles, 0:13:10.059 --> 0:13:12.719 for even the crew, this was really a passion project 0:13:12.719 --> 0:13:16.030 for everybody and you worked as a big collaborative family. 0:13:16.270 --> 0:13:19.929 Yeah. It was tough. There were tears. It was hard. It 0:13:19.929 --> 0:13:23.849 was hard. And to be honest, not everyone who began 0:13:23.849 --> 0:13:25.969 the journey with us ended the journey with us, for 0:13:25.969 --> 0:13:28.270 a number of reasons, but I put some of it 0:13:28.270 --> 0:13:31.479 down to the fact that we were trying to create something which was 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.469 beyond our means. We didn't have all the budget in 0:13:34.469 --> 0:13:36.319 the world and we wanted to create something brilliant. And so, 0:13:36.610 --> 0:13:39.550 we just had an expectation. And I tell you, there were 0:13:39.550 --> 0:13:44.300 a number of opportunities that we gave people including people 0:13:44.300 --> 0:13:47.630 from minority groups and stuff like that to be heads 0:13:47.630 --> 0:13:50.030 of department where they'd never been heads of department before, 0:13:50.030 --> 0:13:52.160 but we believed in them. We believed in their skill and we 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:54.349 believed that their reason for not being head of department 0:13:54.490 --> 0:14:00.040 before this time was the industry creates blocks in their process 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.459 of hiring, naturally discriminates. It doesn't need an individual to 0:14:03.459 --> 0:14:05.599 be racist. It's just the way of the industry. And 0:14:05.630 --> 0:14:07.900 so, we gave a number of people their first go, and 0:14:07.900 --> 0:14:11.260 I tell you, they showed up so hard, so brilliantly, 0:14:11.260 --> 0:14:15.039 they brought a kind of value to the show which 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:19.149 I just ... I'm so grateful for, I'm so thankful for. It 0:14:19.150 --> 0:14:23.150 was just reconfirmation that the benefits of diversity is not 0:14:23.150 --> 0:14:25.869 a tick box exercise. The benefits of diversity isn't that 0:14:26.170 --> 0:14:28.389 everyone gets to feel that they're doing United Colors of 0:14:28.390 --> 0:14:31.990 Benetton. It's that there are brilliant artists here which are 0:14:31.990 --> 0:14:35.870 underused and under utilized and it's to our benefit to 0:14:35.870 --> 0:14:37.010 give them that opportunity. 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:40.700 Did any of them bring something completely surprising that you 0:14:40.700 --> 0:14:41.900 wouldn't have had without them? 0:14:42.260 --> 0:14:45.530 Yeah, well, in particular, there's just one that comes to my 0:14:45.530 --> 0:14:50.320 head, is Joanna, our esteemed costume head. In episode two, 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.259 there's this big industry party, and I've been to some 0:14:53.260 --> 0:14:55.460 weird parties in my life, and I know what it 0:14:55.570 --> 0:14:57.920 feels like. I know what it looks like, and we were 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:00.840 asking for these extras, and the extras we were getting 0:15:00.950 --> 0:15:04.000 just ... I didn't believe them. It was very frustrating. For 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:07.040 weeks and weeks I'd look through these reams of extras 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:08.870 and just be like, " We're not going to have the 0:15:08.870 --> 0:15:11.159 party with this, with a party that's in my head, the 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:13.800 parties I've been to." And so, Joanna came and she 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:17.620 was like, " Well look, I'm part of the scene, whether it's the fetishing or 0:15:17.620 --> 0:15:19.739 the kink scene. I know people who were in there and we 0:15:19.740 --> 0:15:22.780 can both cast them, but they come with costume, because 0:15:22.780 --> 0:15:27.170 that's their lifestyle." And so, we managed through her to 0:15:27.170 --> 0:15:31.120 get half the party through her contacts and people who 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:37.249 are above and beyond. I was walking around that party, hell yeah. This is now 0:15:37.250 --> 0:15:40.720 a party that I'm both intrigued about and scared about. 0:15:41.100 --> 0:15:42.340 And, that's the way I want to feel. 0:15:42.340 --> 0:15:47.500 So, Max is making his comeback, fighting with trying to 0:15:47.500 --> 0:15:51.100 be authentic versus trying to be famous, and it brings 0:15:51.100 --> 0:15:54.760 up two opposing songs. One is a song about sex 0:15:54.760 --> 0:16:02.180 and frozen yogurt and the other is a song that 0:16:02.180 --> 0:16:04.920 has been stuck in my head since watching the show. 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:07.002 You say that thing with me. (crosstalk) . 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:10.500 Sing it girl. 0:16:10.500 --> 0:16:14.840 It doesn't leave my head. Who composed those? How did 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:16.249 you come up with those songs? 0:16:16.250 --> 0:16:20.070 So, Rolling Dice, I first wrote the verse for about 0:16:20.070 --> 0:16:22.090 10 years ago and then when we were trying to 0:16:22.090 --> 0:16:25.379 find a song for this show, I hit up one of 0:16:25.380 --> 0:16:30.359 my writing partners, Marcus Marr, a brilliant guy and I said, " 0:16:30.359 --> 0:16:31.659 Look, this is where I am with the song. I'm having 0:16:31.660 --> 0:16:34.250 problems with the chorus," and so he went out and 0:16:34.250 --> 0:16:36.899 he wrote me chords, and the way he writes the chords, he'd 0:16:36.900 --> 0:16:44.570 be like, (inaudible) like that. And so one day, 0:16:44.820 --> 0:16:47.479 and to have a longer version of the story, I sat down 0:16:47.479 --> 0:16:50.530 at my keyboard and I wrote the lyrics to the chorus. 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:53.300 So, that's how that song came about. And then, the 0:16:53.300 --> 0:16:56.340 other song, the soft serve song, someone came with a 0:16:56.340 --> 0:16:59.110 beat. I listened to 20 beats and I was trying to find something which was 0:16:59.460 --> 0:17:03.310 silly but real, corny but fun and I just fell 0:17:03.310 --> 0:17:05.700 in love with this beat. And so, I just wrote the lyrics 0:17:05.700 --> 0:17:07.609 and chorus and rest of that one day in the 0:17:07.930 --> 0:17:08.280 studio. 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:09.991 But, it was you who wrote the songs? 0:17:09.991 --> 0:17:14.510 Yeah. Yeah. I had the theme tune as well. But again, almost like with 0:17:14.510 --> 0:17:14.900 everything, there were collaborations. 0:17:14.900 --> 0:17:20.080 So, Max plays three instruments, and you had to learn 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:21.291 to play drums and- 0:17:21.291 --> 0:17:23.050 Guitar and bass. 0:17:23.050 --> 0:17:25.040 So, you learned those for the show? 0:17:25.169 --> 0:17:27.830 Yeah, yeah. That was ridiculous, as if I didn't have 0:17:27.830 --> 0:17:30.239 enough on my plate, so yeah, I was doing drumming 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:33.409 lessons in the evenings and guitar lessons. It was stupid. 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:36.279 But, actually I still play guitar a little bit now, so I'm 0:17:36.340 --> 0:17:39.340 really glad that I go to do that and over this 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:42.010 quarantine period with my nephew, I've been teaching him bass, 0:17:42.010 --> 0:17:43.669 so it was worth it and carried on. 0:17:43.669 --> 0:17:45.249 And now, you're going to have to take Max on tour. 0:17:45.369 --> 0:17:49.910 Take Max on to ... no, no, we have been pushing, we're literally pushing me to 0:17:50.310 --> 0:17:52.659 go record that song, the Rolling Dice song so we 0:17:52.659 --> 0:17:52.830 can release it or whatever. 0:17:52.830 --> 0:17:52.850 You should. 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:57.139 (crosstalk) and stuff. Yeah, I guess we should. 0:17:57.139 --> 0:18:01.669 So, Max has some truly cringe worthy moments. Is that 0:18:01.669 --> 0:18:03.720 something you love to play, or is that something that 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:05.640 you had to gear up to play? 0:18:06.190 --> 0:18:09.340 No, I love that. I love it, because I love 0:18:09.340 --> 0:18:12.310 watching it in real life. I'm just like, " Oh my 0:18:12.310 --> 0:18:14.600 God, what a car crash is going on here." And, 0:18:15.350 --> 0:18:18.929 I guess I'm very sympathetic to why people, or why 0:18:18.930 --> 0:18:22.700 I in the past dug yourself a whole and then keep 0:18:22.700 --> 0:18:26.159 digging, trying to redeem it, and I find that very 0:18:26.159 --> 0:18:28.659 amusing to me. And, it comes from a great British 0:18:28.659 --> 0:18:32.850 tradition of that, from Steve Coogan to Ricky Gervais, to 0:18:33.230 --> 0:18:36.269 Fawlty Towers, to Back (inaudible) . I think it's the 0:18:36.270 --> 0:18:39.480 class thing. We're so obsessed with class and social climbing 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:41.780 in England, and I think that's where a lot of 0:18:41.929 --> 0:18:44.680 it comes from, people wanting to be " better than they are." 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:48.209 Going back to the cast. You had mentioned, so he's 0:18:48.210 --> 0:18:51.649 heart broken and desperate to win back his ex, Jourdan 0:18:51.649 --> 0:18:55.070 Dunn, who is played by Jourdan Dunn. How did you meet 0:18:55.070 --> 0:18:56.340 her, get her involved? How did that happen? 0:18:57.590 --> 0:18:59.720 My childhood friend, one of my best friends in the whole 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:03.440 world, a guy called Stephano Moses. He is a very brilliant guy. 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:05.590 He's an associate producer on the show. He was also 0:19:05.590 --> 0:19:08.119 our location manager funnily enough, and he had a connect 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:10.999 to Jourdan, pitched it to her, showed her some of the material, the pilot 0:19:11.050 --> 0:19:12.980 that we shot. She loved it. We met with her 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:15.810 and had tea. I was very nervous she wouldn't be a 0:19:15.810 --> 0:19:18.200 very good actor, but she looked great and we got on 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:22.270 very well, so I wrote quite modestly for her. Then, 0:19:22.270 --> 0:19:24.550 we had our first rehearsal together and that's how we deal a lot with 0:19:24.550 --> 0:19:27.260 improvisation, so I did with her everything I did the Second City 0:19:27.260 --> 0:19:28.919 people. I said, " Hey, look, this is the scene. You're 0:19:28.919 --> 0:19:30.240 going to do this and I'm going to say some 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:32.219 stuff to you and you say some stuff back and let's see what happens." And 0:19:32.220 --> 0:19:34.609 we did it, by the end of the rehearsal, I wrote back 0:19:34.609 --> 0:19:37.570 to my producers Ali, Karen and Luti and I said, " 0:19:37.570 --> 0:19:41.000 We've got a problem because she's so good, we're going 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:43.899 to need more of her in the show." And, we did. We boosted what 0:19:43.899 --> 0:19:44.590 she had to do a lot. 0:19:44.590 --> 0:19:47.039 Was there a lot of improvisation on set? 0:19:47.129 --> 0:19:51.169 Yeah, yeah, there was, particularly with Jourdan. That last scene was pretty 0:19:51.169 --> 0:19:53.729 strictly scripted, at least her part was, I always got off on 0:19:53.730 --> 0:19:56.499 a tangent. But, everything else that we had, and we 0:19:56.500 --> 0:19:58.429 had loads of material that we didn't use to be 0:19:58.429 --> 0:20:02.119 honest, me and her just played around. And, it was a lot of fun and 0:20:02.450 --> 0:20:04.639 we had a great chemistry on set, but generally speaking, 0:20:04.639 --> 0:20:07.050 we'd try and do the script, but there was leeway. 0:20:07.050 --> 0:20:10.590 And Helen Monks, who plays my assistant in it, she's 0:20:10.869 --> 0:20:16.389