Automatic Voice: From CurtCo Media.
Dr Curtis Saunders: I certainly do think that there will be more cars that
Dr Curtis Saunders: we'll look back on and we'll say that was the car that really launched
Dr Curtis Saunders: this. It might be more like the propulsion technology, electric
Dr Curtis Saunders: or even self- driving, but there are definitely still shifts
Dr Curtis Saunders: to come in the auto industry in what we drive.
Dr Curtis Saunders: I definitely think that it's going to be an exciting next century of cars.
Automatic Voice: This is Cars That Matter. (music)
Robert Ross: This is Robert Ross and welcome to another episode of Cars That
Robert Ross: Matter. Today we're joined by Dr. Curtis Saunders, Mechanical Engineer
Robert Ross: Researcher at Johns Hopkins University. How are things in Baltimore
Robert Ross: today Curtis?
Dr Curtis Saunders: They're great Robert. It's a beautiful sunny day here.
Robert Ross: And Curtis is here because he's the owner of a
Robert Ross: 1914 Ford Model T. Now I guess I could make
Robert Ross: all kinds of jokes Curtis about how you really need
Robert Ross: a PhD in mechanical engineering to work on one of
Robert Ross: these, but I'm sure it doesn't hurt.
Dr Curtis Saunders: It's true, it's true.
Robert Ross: First, we're going to dig into the history of the
Robert Ross: Ford Model T just to understand a little bit better why it
Robert Ross: was such an important automobile. The Ford Model T is
Robert Ross: often named the car of the century. Obviously it's an important
Robert Ross: car. Why is it important to you?
Dr Curtis Saunders: I should say while I'm a mechanical engineer, I've always
Dr Curtis Saunders: loved history. I've always been a student of history and
Dr Curtis Saunders: history has always been a passion of mine. So the
Dr Curtis Saunders: Model T it's important to me, one of the reasons
Dr Curtis Saunders: is just the impact it had on American history and
Dr Curtis Saunders: just the auto in general. In addition just to manufacturing
Dr Curtis Saunders: in general, the manufacturing methods behind the Model T, some
Dr Curtis Saunders: of the things that Henry Ford really pioneered with the
Dr Curtis Saunders: car, I was just really fascinated how it had in areas
Dr Curtis Saunders: as well as the impact of car itself had in American culture.
Robert Ross: From what I understand, they made about 15 million and
Robert Ross: they had quite a lifespan. The first one came out
Robert Ross: in 1908, is that right?
Dr Curtis Saunders: Yes, that is correct.
Robert Ross: Kind of wrapped things up by 1927 when by that
Robert Ross: time it was almost as much of an antique as it
Robert Ross: is today.
Dr Curtis Saunders: It's amazing how long the car ran and even through
Dr Curtis Saunders: its cycle while the appearance of the car changed a lot
Dr Curtis Saunders: of the underlying mechanical structure while it had some changes it remained
Dr Curtis Saunders: basically the same, the same four cylinder engine, the same two-
Dr Curtis Saunders: speed transmission. The bones of the car really did run
Dr Curtis Saunders: 20 years.
Robert Ross: I remember years and years ago in my former life,
Robert Ross: I worked with the operating engineers at UCLA and we'd have these emergency
Robert Ross: generator rooms. Now UCLA campus was built back in the
Robert Ross: 1920s and we actually had an emergency generator that was
Robert Ross: still powered by a Model T engine. This was back
Robert Ross: in the eighties. Imagine that, that old engine was deemed
Robert Ross: reliable enough and competent enough to be working all those
Robert Ross: decades later and I guess it was really Testament to
Robert Ross: the endurance of that particular design. You talk about Henry
Robert Ross: Ford and how the Model T was really the first
Robert Ross: mass produced car, but I almost get the feeling Henry
Robert Ross: could have been making washing machines or vacuum cleaners. In
Robert Ross: a lot of ways the Model T was a test bed
Robert Ross: for the whole production line process.
Dr Curtis Saunders: You're absolutely right. The moving assembly line process was not
Dr Curtis Saunders: unique to Model T's. It's been applied to so many different
Dr Curtis Saunders: types of products from airplanes, trains, cars, like you said household goods,
Dr Curtis Saunders: washing machines, TVs, just the idea of that type of
Dr Curtis Saunders: process. We take it for granted now, but someone had
Dr Curtis Saunders: to think of it first and there had to be a
Dr Curtis Saunders: pioneer that and the type of industry that really started this whole thing,
Robert Ross: Not only introducing a whole new way of making things,
Robert Ross: it was done so efficiently and relatively inexpensively that it
Robert Ross: gave any American with a halfway decent paying job the
Robert Ross: opportunity to own a car.
Dr Curtis Saunders: In Ford's heyday he was rolling a car off the
Dr Curtis Saunders: assembly line every 90 seconds.
Robert Ross: From what I understand though, maybe you can correct me
Robert Ross: if I'm wrong, the Model T was such a grand
Robert Ross: vision of Henry Ford's that he actually set up manufacturing
Robert Ross: facilities or plants all around the country and even in
Robert Ross: other continents.
Dr Curtis Saunders: He truly believed it was the car for the masses.
Dr Curtis Saunders: I don't think he really viewed it as just something
Dr Curtis Saunders: for a specific region or even a specific country or
Dr Curtis Saunders: specific time. He thought he'd really distilled down the essential
Dr Curtis Saunders: components of a vehicle and that that's what anyone in
Dr Curtis Saunders: the world would want.
Robert Ross: I guess there was more than just one Model T, everything from
Robert Ross: pickup trucks to delivery vans, they made a whole bunch them, didn't they?
Dr Curtis Saunders: Yes, absolutely. There was various types of cars from two
Dr Curtis Saunders: seaters to four seaters to even enclosed cars and open
Dr Curtis Saunders: cars later. And right, they had a whole line of trucks.
Dr Curtis Saunders: You could even buy a Model T rolling chassis and
Dr Curtis Saunders: build your own body for it. If you didn't like
Dr Curtis Saunders: what Ford was offering, you could just build your own.
Dr Curtis Saunders: You're not even limited to cars. Like you said, the
Dr Curtis Saunders: power plant could just buy the Ford engine, the Ford
Dr Curtis Saunders: power plant and just have all sorts of other applications
Robert Ross: That would make a nice margarita blender, wouldn't it? Just
Robert Ross: about the right amount of horsepower to get that ice
Robert Ross: just, just right. Everybody knows what one looks like, but
Robert Ross: I suspect most people don't really understand what it takes
Robert Ross: to make one move. It's got a little engine. What
Robert Ross: is it like a three liter inline four or something like that?
Dr Curtis Saunders: It's a little inline four and it has a two
Dr Curtis Saunders: speed transmission.
Robert Ross: What's the horsepower output on that engine? What do you figure?
Dr Curtis Saunders: It was rated at 22 and a half horsepower.
Robert Ross: Wow, okay.
Dr Curtis Saunders: So there's a lot of lawnmowers today. You can buy it a riding mower from a hardware
Dr Curtis Saunders: store that has more horsepower than this little Model T.
Robert Ross: You look at a car today and you look at it a little Model
Robert Ross: T and it's the difference between chalk and cheese. We take so
Robert Ross: many darn things for granted. The first thing we take
Robert Ross: for granted is just being able to put a key
Robert Ross: in the ignition and start at or these days, walk
Robert Ross: to the car and press a button. Back then you had
Robert Ross: to get out and crank and as I understand it
Robert Ross: wasn't until 1912, the Cadillac introduced an electric starter. When
Robert Ross: did the Model T get a starter motor?
Dr Curtis Saunders: The Model T got an electric start in 1919.
Robert Ross: Other stuff that you don't think about, what if I'm
Robert Ross: driving at night? People had lanterns. Didn't these things have
Robert Ross: acetylene lanterns or something on them?
Dr Curtis Saunders: Yes, acetylene lanterns and then oil side lamps, oil marker lights
Dr Curtis Saunders: for the side. Driving at night wasn't just a matter
Dr Curtis Saunders: of turning your lights on.
Robert Ross: What do you have to do? Take us through the process.
Robert Ross: You've got these acetylene, do you like blow your head
Robert Ross: off like coyote in the roadrunner cartoon or is this
Robert Ross: stuff safe?
Dr Curtis Saunders: It's safe. They had to be careful. It's a flammable gas, but first you
Dr Curtis Saunders: have to generate the acetylene gas. So their cars have a
Dr Curtis Saunders: little acetylene generator on the running board and it's basically
Dr Curtis Saunders: a tank of water and below that is some calcium
Dr Curtis Saunders: carbide rock that you would put in and you have a
Dr Curtis Saunders: little needle valve and the water drips onto the rock.
Robert Ross: Sounds like you're setting up an execution in a gas chamber, [
Robert Ross: inaudible 00:00:06:20].
Dr Curtis Saunders: You had to have a little chemistry experiment right on the running board there.
Robert Ross: That's awesome.
Dr Curtis Saunders: It runs for a while to build up gas pressure
Dr Curtis Saunders: and then the gas is piped to the two headlights
Dr Curtis Saunders: and then at some point when the gas is flowing, you
Dr Curtis Saunders: light a match and that's how you let your headlights. You
Dr Curtis Saunders: can control the valve and the flow of the gas
Dr Curtis Saunders: a little bit to make them slightly brighter and dimmer, but
Dr Curtis Saunders: in general what they are is what they are
Robert Ross: I'm fascinated, that's great. And guess what? We haven't even
Robert Ross: put it in first gear. First of all, I'm confused man.
Robert Ross: There are three pedals in this thing and not like the
Robert Ross: three pedals we have at our manual cars today. How
Robert Ross: do you drive it? Set us behind the wheel and
Robert Ross: take us on a drive.
Dr Curtis Saunders: So when you're sitting in the driver's seat, you'll notice
Dr Curtis Saunders: three pedals. The left one is labeled clutch, the middle
Dr Curtis Saunders: one is reverse and the one on the far right
Dr Curtis Saunders: is brake and then on the steering wheel, there's two
Dr Curtis Saunders: different levers, one on the left and one on the
Dr Curtis Saunders: right. On your dashboard, you do have a key and
Dr Curtis Saunders: on the far side, you have a little needle vial, a
Dr Curtis Saunders: little rod to a needle vial, and these are all things
Dr Curtis Saunders: you need to adjust to get the car started and running.
Robert Ross: I've already crashed, I can't manage that many things. It's like being an octopus on a drum kit. How do you learn this? What do you do first?
Dr Curtis Saunders: The first thing that you do is you turn the key
Dr Curtis Saunders: to on, but that doesn't start the car. That's just
Dr Curtis Saunders: sends the ignition, there's a little battery in the car. So that sends
Dr Curtis Saunders: the spark to the spark plug basically, and then you
Dr Curtis Saunders: put the lever on the far left, that's the spark
Dr Curtis Saunders: that controls the timing sequence when the spark plug fires
Dr Curtis Saunders: to where the piston is in the cylinder. So you
Dr Curtis Saunders: put that all the way up to have it fire
Dr Curtis Saunders: later and that's where people would normally have backfires and
Dr Curtis Saunders: issues with the crank spinning around and breaking their arm
Dr Curtis Saunders: is the ignition will be too far advanced. So you
Dr Curtis Saunders: put the left lever up, which is the spark. You
Dr Curtis Saunders: put the throttle a little bit down. He's on on.
Dr Curtis Saunders: There's a little needle valve on the dashboard. You have
Dr Curtis Saunders: a turn and a half open. That controls the fuel
Dr Curtis Saunders: air mixture and the carburetor. Now you make sure the
Dr Curtis Saunders: parking brake is set to on. These are all things
Dr Curtis Saunders: you need to before for the car will even start.
Robert Ross: So I take it all back. You really do have to be a PhD.
Dr Curtis Saunders: Do not worry about it being stolen, I'll tell you that.
Robert Ross: Well let me ask you, are these things reliable?
Dr Curtis Saunders: Absolutely, they were very reliable. They're just so simple. It's
Dr Curtis Saunders: just a very simple car. There's very few moving parts
Dr Curtis Saunders: and the tolerances are in general a lot laxer than the
Dr Curtis Saunders: modern challenges we have for engines. So even if some
Dr Curtis Saunders: things break on it, in general it can keep running.
Dr Curtis Saunders: Things can be pretty far out of spec for this
Dr Curtis Saunders: car to run. It might not run well, but it
Dr Curtis Saunders: will run.
Robert Ross: It might be blowing a quart of oil every two
Robert Ross: blocks, but-
Dr Curtis Saunders: But it's running.
Robert Ross: What about stopping? Do they have anything for brakes or do you have to be Fred Flinstone?
Dr Curtis Saunders: You basically have to be Fred Flinstone with this car.
Dr Curtis Saunders: It does have a brake. There's just a single drum
Dr Curtis Saunders: on the transmission and you have a band which has
Dr Curtis Saunders: some treated cotton on it. When you push the brake
Dr Curtis Saunders: pedal, it just kind of clamps down on the drum
Dr Curtis Saunders: and then the friction between those is what slows your
Dr Curtis Saunders: car. It does not even, drum brakes on the four
Dr Curtis Saunders: wheels are just brakes. It's just a single drum on
Dr Curtis Saunders: the transmission.
Robert Ross: Cotton like fabric for a brake?
Dr Curtis Saunders: Yes, but Ford actually advertised that as a feature in
Dr Curtis Saunders: the car because the brake drum was inside the transmission.
Dr Curtis Saunders: So he described it as the car would stop the same, whether
Dr Curtis Saunders: it was wet or dry. Other cars had these treated
Dr Curtis Saunders: cotton bands around the drum as well, but it wasn't enclosed in the
Dr Curtis Saunders: transmission. So if it was wet out or grimy, you
Dr Curtis Saunders: might have reduced clamping power, so.
Robert Ross: This is truly awesome, stuff that we don't even think about.
Robert Ross: Let's talk numbers. How fast does it go? How fast
Robert Ross: do you drive this thing?
Dr Curtis Saunders: The 1814s didn't come with the speedometer. That was not a
Dr Curtis Saunders: standard thing. So a lot of my speeds are guessed.
Dr Curtis Saunders: I feel like a GPS on there sometimes though to
Dr Curtis Saunders: get an idea and I'd say mine cruises about 35, 40
Dr Curtis Saunders: miles an hour.
Robert Ross: Sounds perfect.
Dr Curtis Saunders: You can go faster, but the wheels aren't balanced. It
Dr Curtis Saunders: still has its original brake. So it gets harder to
Dr Curtis Saunders: stop and harder to control at the faster speed. So 35 to
Dr Curtis Saunders: 40 is good for cruising. No, it only has two
Dr Curtis Saunders: gears. So it really does not like going uphill. They
Dr Curtis Saunders: really would love a third gear when it goes up a hill.
Robert Ross: Well I guess that's what a passenger's for, to get out and push, huh? How many
Robert Ross: people fit inside that thing?
Dr Curtis Saunders: Mine's a touring cars, so it's a front and rear seat and
Dr Curtis Saunders: it will comfortably fit two in the front, two in
Dr Curtis Saunders: the back. You can squeeze three adults in the back.
Dr Curtis Saunders: You can have people standing on the running boards I
Dr Curtis Saunders: suppose if you wanted to add more, but I would
Dr Curtis Saunders: say four to five comfortably.
Robert Ross: I'm sure that poor little motor is going to be
Robert Ross: straining if you get more than five big frat guys in there?
Dr Curtis Saunders: The car will definitely tell you when you're hauling passengers
Dr Curtis Saunders: versus when you're just taking it out or a drive
Dr Curtis Saunders: by yourself.
Robert Ross: Well they can't weigh much, probably a 1500 pound guard?
Dr Curtis Saunders: They're very light, it's wood and metal. It doesn't have
Dr Curtis Saunders: all the features and all the extra reinforcing that a
Dr Curtis Saunders: modern car would have. It's just a wood carriage body
Dr Curtis Saunders: covered in sheet metal, put on top of a light
Dr Curtis Saunders: duty frame.
Robert Ross: Your car have a name?
Dr Curtis Saunders: It does not actually, because I only have one Model
Dr Curtis Saunders: T I just call it the Model T.
Robert Ross: They used to call them a Tin Lizzie and there
Robert Ross: was a lot of question about where that name came from.
Dr Curtis Saunders: Tin Lizzie, yes.
Robert Ross: What did they do for gasoline back then? Did they have
Robert Ross: gas stations like we have today?
Dr Curtis Saunders: So they did. Early on gasoline was one of the
Dr Curtis Saunders: byproducts that will come about when trying to refine for
Dr Curtis Saunders: kerosene because everyone had kerosene and oil lamps and gas was just
Dr Curtis Saunders: this byproduct that came through their refining process they didn't
Dr Curtis Saunders: really know what to do with. So they're already producing gasoline before
Dr Curtis Saunders: they really had a big market for it.
Robert Ross: No kidding, so it's like all dressed up and nowhere to go.
Robert Ross: We got this stuff, now we have to figure out what we can
Robert Ross: use it for.
Dr Curtis Saunders: Yeah, exactly. When refining first started, people mainly want kerosenes,
Dr Curtis Saunders: they weren't producing it, but you had to build up your gas station infrastructure and you
Dr Curtis Saunders: had the old glass pumps that people see in the
Dr Curtis Saunders: small underground tanks, but that was definitely a major challenge
Dr Curtis Saunders: is you have this car now, but now you need
Dr Curtis Saunders: to build up this infrastructure to fuel it.
Robert Ross: What did they do for electrical system? I know the
Robert Ross: original Model T's didn't have batteries at all and I'm
Robert Ross: sure yours has got an electrical system in it, is that right?
Dr Curtis Saunders: Mine has a 12 volt battery under the rear seat and
Dr Curtis Saunders: that basically just fires the four spake plugs. When you're
Dr Curtis Saunders: starting the car, it switches to battery, but they also had a
Dr Curtis Saunders: magneto. It's an eight or nine volt magneto, which can
Dr Curtis Saunders: generate its own electricity. I start the car on battery
Dr Curtis Saunders: and then once it's running, I switch it over to
Dr Curtis Saunders: magneto and the car is producing its own electricity, but the
Dr Curtis Saunders: entire wiring harness is the wire that goes from the
Dr Curtis Saunders: battery to the ignition switch, the four wires that go
Dr Curtis Saunders: to the spark plugs.
Robert Ross: That is every mechanic's dream. Instead of trying to untangle
Robert Ross: a rat's nest, the stuff. You work on some of
Robert Ross: these old Italian cars and that harness is so snake bit.
Robert Ross: One wire starts out red and it ends up being green.
Dr Curtis Saunders: The wires of course have all been replaced, but I don't think it's given
Dr Curtis Saunders: me any electrical issues. One of the interesting things about
Dr Curtis Saunders: the electrical system on this car is, (inaudible) car is
Dr Curtis Saunders: actually coming full circle with this is each spark has its own
Dr Curtis Saunders: ignition coil. Instead of a single coil with a distributor
Dr Curtis Saunders: which distributes it out. In my case, there's four different ignition coils. Each has its own spark
Dr Curtis Saunders: plug and they sit on the dashboard.
Robert Ross: That's positively modern, it's 21st century.
Dr Curtis Saunders: Yeah, exactly. We now have half of the coil packs, now they're going
Dr Curtis Saunders: back to that for the spark plugs. It come full
Dr Curtis Saunders: circle and actually I had a coil go bad while I
Dr Curtis Saunders: was driving. It was actually when I was on a tour with
Dr Curtis Saunders: a bunch of Model T's. The car just started running rough
Dr Curtis Saunders: and it didn't have the power and one of the club members looked, "
Dr Curtis Saunders: Oh, one of the coils went bad." That happens, just switched
Dr Curtis Saunders: out and put in another one. They said, " You can do
Dr Curtis Saunders: that while driving too, that's happened to us. " Because it's
Dr Curtis Saunders: right there on the dashboards. You just pop the coil
Dr Curtis Saunders: out pop a new one in and they keep going.
Robert Ross: Boy, what a whole different world.
Dr Curtis Saunders: It's just so simple that things can go wrong, but the
Dr Curtis Saunders: car will still run. It's a very forgiving car. I
Dr Curtis Saunders: joke out of all of my cars is the most reliable.
Robert Ross: That's great. We're going to take a short break, but
Robert Ross: we'll be right back.
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Robert Ross: We're back with Curtis Saunders. Curtis, tell us your story
Robert Ross: and tell us about your car.
Automatic Voice: My uncle bought a 1914 Ford Model T in 1968.
Automatic Voice: It didn't run. So we would go and sit in it
Automatic Voice: and play with it. We'd play with the levers and
Automatic Voice: the pedals and the steering wheel. So I really, even from
Automatic Voice: a young age, I grew up playing with this car
Automatic Voice: that sat in the garage. And then when I was
Automatic Voice: in high school, it was summer of 2004, my best
Automatic Voice: friend Pete and I, he kept nagging me to get
Automatic Voice: the car out. "You've got this great car in your garage and
Automatic Voice: your uncle has this car. You really need to get
Automatic Voice: it out and drive it." So I was like, " Oh, you're absolutely right,"
Automatic Voice: and here we are high schoolers and we have learners
Automatic Voice: permits, so we're all excited. We got the car out and then
Automatic Voice: pushed it around the block to a garage where I could
Automatic Voice: work on it. At first, we vacuumed it and cleaned it up
Automatic Voice: and then we had it pushed around the block and
Automatic Voice: in the garage and my uncle got home from work
Automatic Voice: and we were like, " Hey, look at this great thing. We're
Automatic Voice: going to get it running," and he was all excited. He was like, "
Automatic Voice: Oh yeah, that's great." And so we spent a few
Automatic Voice: days working on it and then summer of 2004, it
Automatic Voice: finally fired right up. There's a plume of blue smoke
Automatic Voice: that engulfed us. We had poured oil in the four
Automatic Voice: cylinders to try to keep everything lubricated as we were
Automatic Voice: starting it, but of course all this oil burned off
Automatic Voice: as soon as it started running, so we were just
Automatic Voice: engulfed in this plume of smoke as this thing started.
Robert Ross: What a great science experiment, I love it. You're a
Robert Ross: young guy. For anyone under 60 to have an interest
Robert Ross: in these cars is probably a bit of an anomaly
Robert Ross: and I think that's fascinating, clearly the connection then was
Robert Ross: not just the mechanical one, but maybe something a little
Robert Ross: more personal.
Dr Curtis Saunders: Absolutely. I grew up hearing stories that my uncle told
Dr Curtis Saunders: me when he had done work on it and had
Dr Curtis Saunders: driven it when he was younger. He drove it for
Dr Curtis Saunders: about 10 years from 1968 to the late seventies where it
Dr Curtis Saunders: was parked. So yeah, having this great car in my backyard
Dr Curtis Saunders: and hearing all these fun stories about it from him
Dr Curtis Saunders: and the work he did really peaked my interest and
Dr Curtis Saunders: then getting it running and then he and I would
Dr Curtis Saunders: drive it and work on it and just swap stories about
Dr Curtis Saunders: the projects we were doing,
Robert Ross: Everybody jokes about what Henry Ford told his customers, " You can
Robert Ross: have any color as long as it's black." Am I
Robert Ross: to assume yours is an old black Model T?
Dr Curtis Saunders: It is an old black Model T, yes.
Robert Ross: They look good in that color and let's talk about
Robert Ross: the car itself then and your restoration work. Obviously you
Robert Ross: had to completely recommission this. How have you approached it? Is
Robert Ross: it more of a sympathetic restoration or is it a showroom
Robert Ross: deal or what was your approach?
Dr Curtis Saunders: Out of necessity, when I first started working on it,
Dr Curtis Saunders: I really didn't do bodywork. So doing a complete taking
Dr Curtis Saunders: it apart and repainting was off the table and it was also
Dr Curtis Saunders: the paint was in pretty good shape from when it
Dr Curtis Saunders: was restored. I really approached it as a mechanical restoration
Dr Curtis Saunders: to do what I needed to to get the car
Dr Curtis Saunders: to run safely and reliably, but also keep it mostly
Dr Curtis Saunders: original as I could. So I definitely haven't added a
Dr Curtis Saunders: whole lot of features or upgrades to the car. I
Dr Curtis Saunders: really wanted the car to be the technology it was
Dr Curtis Saunders: in 1914, but at some point you have to make
Dr Curtis Saunders: a guess as to what might've been on it.
Robert Ross: Is there such a thing as original engines in the
Robert Ross: Model T community or I guess the engines don't blow up though?
Dr Curtis Saunders: The engine is original as I can say. The serial
Dr Curtis Saunders: number on the block dates to July of 1914 and
Dr Curtis Saunders: the body also has the components of a 1914. So I
Dr Curtis Saunders: can say it's a 1914, but it's not like a
Dr Curtis Saunders: modern car where you have a VIN on the engine
Dr Curtis Saunders: block which matches the frame. So it really can't go to
Dr Curtis Saunders: that detail, but it is as far as the Model T community goes,
Dr Curtis Saunders: it's a 1914 engine. When I was in high school, the
Dr Curtis Saunders: other hobby I had was actually volunteering at some local
Dr Curtis Saunders: state parks with old forts, like a Seacoast defense fortifications
Dr Curtis Saunders: from the Civil War after World War II and so we
Dr Curtis Saunders: would take the Model T to Portsmouth, New Jersey and
Dr Curtis Saunders: Pennsylvania, New Jersey across the Delaware river. And we have World War
Dr Curtis Saunders: I uniforms. [ Horse shack 00:00:16:50] and World War I would not probably have been
Dr Curtis Saunders: uncommon to see a Model T driving around the fort.
Dr Curtis Saunders: So it was just really popular for people too because it
Dr Curtis Saunders: just gave them another aspect of the history of the
Dr Curtis Saunders: area to see the car running and driving and just
Dr Curtis Saunders: moving all around.
Robert Ross: I have to plug one of my favorite places in
Robert Ross: the world and that's the Henry Ford museum in Dearborn, but especially
Robert Ross: Greenfield village and to visit Greenfield Village and understand what
Robert Ross: Henry Ford and his cohorts, Thomas Edison and all those
Robert Ross: guys, the Wright brothers, all the great inventors of the
Robert Ross: era did. And to be able to actually live it
Robert Ross: in a small town environment that was created in Greenfield
Robert Ross: Village, I would say that it's literally a Disneyland for
Robert Ross: kids and adults who are interested in American history and
Robert Ross: the invention of some of the fundamental machines and concepts
Robert Ross: that built America.
Dr Curtis Saunders: I agree. That's on my bucket list. I have not
Dr Curtis Saunders: been there, but I've read a lot about it. It was
Dr Curtis Saunders: interesting Ford built six brand new Model T's. So at
Dr Curtis Saunders: least several of them are at that village that you
Dr Curtis Saunders: can ride in. Some of the cars they use, they continued
Dr Curtis Saunders: the assembly line and they got subsequent serial numbers after
Dr Curtis Saunders: the last Model T and they built some brand new ones.
Robert Ross: I had no idea.
Dr Curtis Saunders: It's one thing to see the car or learn about history
Dr Curtis Saunders: in a museum or in a book, but it's entirely
Dr Curtis Saunders: different to see it like a working museum that's not
Dr Curtis Saunders: just static where you see everything's coming to life.
Robert Ross: Talk about the community for a minute. As I pointed
Robert Ross: out, you're a pretty young guy to have such an
Robert Ross: old car. I know that Model T's and Model A's
Robert Ross: where all the collectible rage back in the fifties and
Robert Ross: sixties, and you don't see many of them around anymore, where
Robert Ross: are they all lurking and who are the owners?
Dr Curtis Saunders: You're right. There was a big rage back in the fifties, sixties that
Dr Curtis Saunders: really launched a lot of the old car hobbies, but
Dr Curtis Saunders: a lot of them are still around. They're just in garages. They
Dr Curtis Saunders: might be in your neighbor's garage. One of the things
Dr Curtis Saunders: that's become harder with Model T's is as general cars
Dr Curtis Saunders: get faster and roads get bigger, it's less and less
Dr Curtis Saunders: safe to take them on main roads. I have to
Dr Curtis Saunders: be very careful in planning routes. One of the benefits
Dr Curtis Saunders: is I really like road cycling. I can find similar
Dr Curtis Saunders: routes for both of my hobbies and then what's popular
Dr Curtis Saunders: goes with different ages of people. As certain generations get
Dr Curtis Saunders: older, they're attracted to certain cars. I am definitely an
Dr Curtis Saunders: anomaly as a 33 year old really being into Model
Dr Curtis Saunders: T's, but I will tell you though, my experience when
Dr Curtis Saunders: I pull up to traffic lights, the Model T's generally
Dr Curtis Saunders: get more honks and ways than a Firebird or something.
Dr Curtis Saunders: It's just people are just amazed to see it still
Dr Curtis Saunders: on the road.
Robert Ross: What about rallies? Do you close yet together and drive
Robert Ross: these things in mass?
Dr Curtis Saunders: Absolutely. So there's national meets, there's local meets, there's local
Dr Curtis Saunders: clubs where you go to a drive in. There's all sorts of
Dr Curtis Saunders: different levels of communities for people wanting to get involved.
Dr Curtis Saunders: Growing up, I was involved in the Delaware Model T
Dr Curtis Saunders: Club. I went on some club tours with them, which was just
Dr Curtis Saunders: a lot of fun to get a group of Model
Dr Curtis Saunders: T owners together. And then of course, I've gone to
Dr Curtis Saunders: some of the shows, Hershey is the big one in
Dr Curtis Saunders: Pennsylvania, it's not too far away. I've been really happy
Dr Curtis Saunders: with the different Model T communities that I've come across
Dr Curtis Saunders: and the different states I've lived in. When I was
Dr Curtis Saunders: growing up in Delaware, that was a really great way
Dr Curtis Saunders: as a kid to see that there was other cars
Dr Curtis Saunders: out there.And that really got me to the next level
Dr Curtis Saunders: of driving it around a few blocks. The first tour
Dr Curtis Saunders: I did with the club, it really got me more comfortable taking it
Dr Curtis Saunders: on longer drives. I got to see that these guys are just taking
Dr Curtis Saunders: them out, they're not worried.
Robert Ross: I know that the guys at Hagerty, the insurance group who
Robert Ross: publish some great magazines and have a lot of enthusiasts
Robert Ross: in their ranks. They had a program a couple of
Robert Ross: years ago where I guess one of their guys fixed
Robert Ross: and drove a Model T across the country. That was
Robert Ross: very inspiring. What's the furthest you've driven your car?
Dr Curtis Saunders: The furthest I've driven the cars across state lines from
Dr Curtis Saunders: Delaware to Maryland. I have trailered the car. The furthest
Dr Curtis Saunders: the car has been is Canada. When I was in
Dr Curtis Saunders: graduate school at the University of Vermont, I had the
Dr Curtis Saunders: car with me in Burlington and a few of my
Dr Curtis Saunders: grad school friends and I, we got in the car and we drove it
Dr Curtis Saunders: up to Canada, so we crossed the border. So the car has
Dr Curtis Saunders: left the country. That was probably the first time in it's
Dr Curtis Saunders: 100 year history that it left the United States. We
Dr Curtis Saunders: not only drove it across the border, we took it
Dr Curtis Saunders: to a drive through a zoo. So we had the
Dr Curtis Saunders: top down and there was camels, elk, and ostriches that
Dr Curtis Saunders: were coming into the car and you could feed them. So we
Dr Curtis Saunders: had a giant bag of carrots and we were just feeding
Dr Curtis Saunders: these animals just from this Model T and of course
Dr Curtis Saunders: everyone else, and they have windows and there's like things
Dr Curtis Saunders: to protect you from the animals. So they were just
Dr Curtis Saunders: right in our laps and it was the most insane thing to
Dr Curtis Saunders: do with an old car.
Robert Ross: Oh, that's incredible. Those ostrich are pretty formidable, they can get in your face.
Dr Curtis Saunders: They were a little aggressive. The camels loved us. They're just so happy. I was like "One of these camels could
Dr Curtis Saunders: just push this car right over if it wanted to." Like " Is this really a good idea?"
Robert Ross: Curtis, that's great. We're going to take a quick break
Robert Ross: and then we'll be right back.
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Robert Ross: Welcome back to Cars That Matter. I should've known you
Robert Ross: were a guy who didn't have just one car. Tell
Robert Ross: us about some of the other cars in your garage
Robert Ross: or shall I call them antiques?
Dr Curtis Saunders: They're both, you're absolutely right. Once you have one car and you
Dr Curtis Saunders: really get bit by the old car bug, it's hard
Dr Curtis Saunders: to just stop with the one. Once I got the
Dr Curtis Saunders: car running and we started enjoying it, my uncle was
Dr Curtis Saunders: also really bit by the bug. So there's the 1914 Ford Model
Dr Curtis Saunders: T, there is a 1930 Ford Model A.
Robert Ross: Oh, well now the Model A. Okay, stop right there. That was
Robert Ross: essentially its successor, is that right?
Dr Curtis Saunders: Yes, it was.
Robert Ross: And damn near as popular as the T. I know
Robert Ross: the Model A was the staple up to probably up
Robert Ross: to World War II.
Dr Curtis Saunders: You can really see the difference in the technologies, even between those
Dr Curtis Saunders: two cars. It really helps that I have an earlier
Dr Curtis Saunders: brass era Model to use because I have a lot
Dr Curtis Saunders: of brass trim on the crank start and acetylene gas
Dr Curtis Saunders: headlights and then you progress to the Model A, which
Dr Curtis Saunders: is electric starter, electric headlights, electric horn. It's an enclosed
Dr Curtis Saunders: car. It has four wheel drum brakes, it has your standard
Dr Curtis Saunders: transmission, the clutch pedal, brake pedal accelerator with your standard
Dr Curtis Saunders: age three speed in reverse transmission, which is becoming much
Dr Curtis Saunders: close to what you would think of as a moderate car.
Dr Curtis Saunders: The sheet metal is a little more styled.
Robert Ross: It actually had a couple little curves in it if
Robert Ross: you look real hard.
Dr Curtis Saunders: It's true, it's true. We started rounding things over.
Robert Ross: What about the engine? What are those, has similar in line four?
Dr Curtis Saunders: Similar in line four, but we're at 40 horsepower now
Dr Curtis Saunders: and a whole extra gear.
Robert Ross: What color is your A?
Dr Curtis Saunders: It's Navy blue with black fenders and yellow wheels? The
Dr Curtis Saunders: color is straw, so straw wheels.
Robert Ross: You're really styler. That's the Brooks Brothers of Model A's, that was a good look.
Dr Curtis Saunders: Instead of brass trim, which has to be polished, it
Dr Curtis Saunders: is stainless steel, so you don't have to do anything at all.
Robert Ross: Well so far, I'd call you a Ford man. What
Robert Ross: else you got?
Dr Curtis Saunders: Also have a 1931 Buick.
Robert Ross: You jumped ship to GM.
Dr Curtis Saunders: The restoration is still in progress. I was working on
Dr Curtis Saunders: that while I was in graduate school. It was a
Dr Curtis Saunders: nice outlet from research to have a project like that
Dr Curtis Saunders: to work on.
Robert Ross: I'll bet it was, that's nice to have a little bit of a distraction
Robert Ross: there, huh?
Dr Curtis Saunders: Yes and I'm fascinated by the '31 Buick because it has
Dr Curtis Saunders: a straight eight engine, double the number of cylinders, but
Dr Curtis Saunders: they're all in a row, a straight eight.
Robert Ross: Straight eight was an engineering challenge because you got that big long crank and
Robert Ross: you got a lot of temperature challenges, maintaining constant temperatures
Robert Ross: across such a long series of components. Of course you
Robert Ross: get that good looking long hood to go with it.
Dr Curtis Saunders: It's a beautiful car and it's a big enclosed car too. It's a seven passenger
Dr Curtis Saunders: sedan and it'll be done someday.
Robert Ross: I suspect that's not your last car though.
Dr Curtis Saunders: I also have a 1956 Ford Thunderbird. So again, with the Fords.
Robert Ross: That's not only a modern car by comparison, but it's
Robert Ross: also quite a beautiful classic and certainly among the T-
Robert Ross: birds that and the five, six and seven, those are
Robert Ross: the three one you want. Maybe a '63, a lot
Robert Ross: of nice Thunderbirds out there. But certainly the first series
Robert Ross: were the ones that everybody really thinks about.
Dr Curtis Saunders: I just love the look of it. It's a great looking car.
Robert Ross: What are your plans? You got any big drives ahead of you?
Dr Curtis Saunders: The next big drive for the car will be at
Dr Curtis Saunders: my wedding. I'm getting married this October and a Model T
Dr Curtis Saunders: will be our wedding car.
Robert Ross: Congratulations, that's awesome.
Dr Curtis Saunders: Thank you.
Robert Ross: Who needs a Rolls Royce convertible for a wedding limousine
Robert Ross: when you've got a Model T that you actually built
Robert Ross: yourself? That is fantastic. I'm sure your uncle would be thrilled.
Dr Curtis Saunders: It's a great way to remember him and to really just continue to
Dr Curtis Saunders: enjoy the car and have it continue to be a
Dr Curtis Saunders: part of my life moving forward.
Robert Ross: Well then I have to ask, is your fiance into cars?
Dr Curtis Saunders: She loves it. She's driven it too. She thinks it's
Dr Curtis Saunders: awesome. It's easy to teach her to drive it because
Dr Curtis Saunders: she already knew the principle of the clutch and all that.
Robert Ross: That's fantastic. Well, if I ever get back East I
Robert Ross: may look you up and hit you up for a
Robert Ross: driving lesson because I would be thrilled to get behind
Robert Ross: the wheel of something like that. It sounds like so much fun.
Dr Curtis Saunders: Anytime.
Robert Ross: I always like to ask our guests, if you could
Robert Ross: have any three cars, what would you pick?
Dr Curtis Saunders: That's a great question. I think definitely finishing the restorations
Dr Curtis Saunders: is a top priority to really just get to enjoy
Dr Curtis Saunders: them and see that go full circle to finally get
Dr Curtis Saunders: to the part of driving. I really just love all
Dr Curtis Saunders: brass cars. The older, the better. I would love an
Dr Curtis Saunders: old Stanley or Doble steam car.
Robert Ross: Okay, yeah.
Dr Curtis Saunders: Also, the other one is an old brass car called an American Underslung.
Robert Ross: They look like a race, well they were.
Dr Curtis Saunders: I just love the look.
Robert Ross: The best look in the world, huh? That's fantastic. And
Robert Ross: it's especially gratifying to know that the brass flame is
Robert Ross: alive with a whole younger generation of enthusiasts. What advice
Robert Ross: would you give somebody if they thought they wanted to
Robert Ross: do something as out there as go back in time
Robert Ross: and look for a brass era car? Would a Model
Robert Ross: T be a place to start? .
Dr Curtis Saunders: Absolutely. I would say Model T's or Model A's, but
Dr Curtis Saunders: I definitely am partial to the T's. In terms of the
Dr Curtis Saunders: antique cars, they're very available. There's a wealth of information
Dr Curtis Saunders: and aftermarket parts available. If you need to find a
Dr Curtis Saunders: part and you can pretty much buy most things new
Dr Curtis Saunders: for these cars, there's enough of them where it's vendors
Dr Curtis Saunders: can make new parts to them. The information is there. There's different
Dr Curtis Saunders: clubs you can join. There's people that can help you if
Dr Curtis Saunders: you get stuck. And I would just say, don't be
Dr Curtis Saunders: afraid to try. I learned by doing and when I
Dr Curtis Saunders: started I was just a high schooler and I had done
Dr Curtis Saunders: some work on lawn mowers, fine. I didn't know how
Dr Curtis Saunders: to restore a car or how to work on things,
Dr Curtis Saunders: but you take it apart. Sometimes you're smart enough to
Dr Curtis Saunders: take pictures as you go, sometimes you're not. And you
Dr Curtis Saunders: have to go back to figure out how someone else put
Dr Curtis Saunders: it together. But I would just say, don't be afraid
Dr Curtis Saunders: to try.
Robert Ross: That's great. So just pretend it's a giant model kit and start from scratch.
Dr Curtis Saunders: Exactly, if you get stuck there's help along the way.
Robert Ross: Now are you going to get thrown out of the club if
Robert Ross: you decide to paint one something other than black?
Dr Curtis Saunders: You may get some looks, but-
Robert Ross: Well it keeps saying it's easy. You don't have to worry
Robert Ross: about what you're going to wear.
Dr Curtis Saunders: Exactly, it's true. That's one less decision you have to make with
Dr Curtis Saunders: the restoration process.
Robert Ross: So Curtis, let's change our perspective. Let me ask you,
Robert Ross: what do you think about the future of car collecting?
Dr Curtis Saunders: It's a more accessible hobby than many people think. My
Dr Curtis Saunders: Model T, it's not a million dollar car. It's maybe
Dr Curtis Saunders: like $ 14000. Not everyone has $ 14000 laying around to go
Dr Curtis Saunders: buy a car, but I would say that the future
Dr Curtis Saunders: of the hobby, it's more accessible than many people think
Dr Curtis Saunders: there's. Plenty of collector cars, just pick up a Hemmings
Dr Curtis Saunders: or some classified digest and you'll see that there's plenty
Dr Curtis Saunders: that are within range. It's going to be really interesting
Dr Curtis Saunders: for me as a 33 year old is seeing over
Dr Curtis Saunders: the next 20, 30 years, the cars that I remember from
Dr Curtis Saunders: my youth that are going to become collectible much less.
Dr Curtis Saunders: I've heard stories on other people talk about that, but
Dr Curtis Saunders: I will definitely experience that and it'll just be very
Dr Curtis Saunders: interesting to see what will become collectible because there's always
Dr Curtis Saunders: going to be things that are collectible and it's only like a
Dr Curtis Saunders: brass era car isn't as collectible as it once was,
Dr Curtis Saunders: there will certainly be new types of cars that are
Dr Curtis Saunders: discovering and people want to keep after. So I the
Dr Curtis Saunders: future of the hobby is, I'm hoping it sticks around.
Dr Curtis Saunders: I love it. It's been a great experience for me
Dr Curtis Saunders: and I think it'll stick around, that it'll just be fascinating
Dr Curtis Saunders: to see what becomes collectible, but I would just encourage
Dr Curtis Saunders: people. Like I said, it's more accessible than you think, it
Dr Curtis Saunders: doesn't have to be a show winning restoration. If it
Dr Curtis Saunders: looks good from 10 feet away and you enjoy driving
Dr Curtis Saunders: it, all the better. Even if it doesn't look good
Dr Curtis Saunders: from 10 feet away, but you enjoy driving it.
Robert Ross: Probably have more fun that way anyway because we don't have to
Robert Ross: worry about the rock chips.
Dr Curtis Saunders: Exactly.
Robert Ross: It's funny, brand new cars become old cars eventually and
Robert Ross: take it from me time flies and I remember buying
Robert Ross: some new cars that today are treasured classics. So it
Robert Ross: happens quickly. Talking about those future classics, do you think any
Robert Ross: car from the past 100 years will really have the same
Robert Ross: impact and significance as the Ford Model T? Anything else
Robert Ross: you can think of?
Dr Curtis Saunders: It's hard to say for me for sure. I think
Dr Curtis Saunders: that there will, something will have an impact similar to the
Dr Curtis Saunders: Model T. The Model T was just very unique in how it brought the
Dr Curtis Saunders: cars to the country and it gave the working person,
Dr Curtis Saunders: it was the first car they could afford. It really
Dr Curtis Saunders: put the people on wheels. The next big shift would
Dr Curtis Saunders: probably be an electric or some sort of alternative energy car.
Dr Curtis Saunders: Of course we already have cars, we already have Rose,
Dr Curtis Saunders: so it wouldn't be the same type of impact as
Dr Curtis Saunders: the Model T and I certainly do think that there will
Dr Curtis Saunders: be more cars that we'll look back on and we'll say "
Dr Curtis Saunders: That was the car that really launched this movement, this
Dr Curtis Saunders: revolution." Of course Ford new early, early 10 or so
Dr Curtis Saunders: years in, he was really onto something because he was cranking out
Dr Curtis Saunders: a car every 90 seconds. Wasn't immediate, it took a
Dr Curtis Saunders: while for it to really build up and build up. It
Dr Curtis Saunders: might be more like the propulsion technology, electric or even self-
Dr Curtis Saunders: driving, but there are definitely still shifts to come in the
Dr Curtis Saunders: auto industry and what we drive and when we look
Dr Curtis Saunders: back on it we'll be able to say, " This is really what
Dr Curtis Saunders: launched that movement." I definitely think that it's going to be an
Dr Curtis Saunders: exciting next century of cars. As someone who loves driving, I'm like, "Ah,"
Dr Curtis Saunders: but also as someone who sits in DC, Baltimore traffic everyday, I'm like, " Oh, that could be nice, not to have to drive."
Robert Ross: Well that's what the T's for for the weekend and the
Robert Ross: autonomous EV is for the day to day. Maybe it's
Robert Ross: the best of both worlds and I hope we're all
Robert Ross: enjoying both of those.
Dr Curtis Saunders: It will be really fascinating. I'm excited to live through this
Dr Curtis Saunders: change and to really see what's next on the horizon.
Dr Curtis Saunders: It's just an exciting time to be a car guy
Dr Curtis Saunders: and to be interested in cars.
Robert Ross: What a great conversation. Dr. Curtis Saunders, I really want
Robert Ross: to thank you for joining us and taking time out
Robert Ross: of your busy and mechanical engineering research work and to
Robert Ross: talk about something a little more down home, which is
Robert Ross: Model T that obviously has stolen a piece of your heart.
Dr Curtis Saunders: It was a lot of fun coming here today, talking to you about the car. It's been great for me too.
Robert Ross: Well, all the best for you and your upcoming wedding and send us a picture, will you?
Dr Curtis Saunders: Will do.
Robert Ross: Thanks to Curtis Saunders for joining us today on Cars
Robert Ross: That Matter. Come back next time as we continue to
Robert Ross: talk about the passions that drive us and the passions
Robert Ross: we drive. This episode of Cars That Matter was hosted by
Robert Ross: Robert Ross, produced by Chris Border, edited by Chris Porter,
Robert Ross: sound engineering by Michael Kennedy, theme song by Celeste and
Robert Ross: Eric Dick. Additional music and sound by Chris Porter. Please
Robert Ross: like, subscribe and share this podcast. I'm Robert Ross and
Robert Ross: thanks for listening.
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