UU: From critical media.
S1: In my opinion, the DNA of all the chiefs ever
S1: built what I even see one on the road today
S1: go back to those first three in those hands on
S1: individuals that ban them at will at Ford that put
S1: that ruggedness, put that exceptionalism, put that versatility into the
S1: Jeep DNA. That was the voice of Paul Bruno, our
S1: guest today on cars that matter. This is cars that matter.
S1: This is Robert Ross with another episode of Cars that Matter.
S1: Welcome to our show and welcome Paul Bruno. It's great
S1: to have you on the show. Oh, great to be here, Robert.
S1: And I'm looking forward to talking early history with you. Well, Paul,
S1: I'm not going to embarrass you, but the fact of
S1: the matter is, you're kind of recognized as the preeminent
S1: expert on the history and the origin of the Jeep.
S1: You have dug deep. And in fact, your recent book,
S1: just out 10, 20, 20, is called The Original Jeeps
S1: commemorating the birth of an icon. Nineteen forty to nineteen
S1: forty one. Congratulations on that. But this isn't your first
S1: Jeep rodeo either. Your other book called The First Jeep
S1: was published in twenty fourteen. So I get the feeling
S1: that there's something that somebody needs to know about this
S1: particular vehicle. You're going to have the answer, the name
S1: of the show, Cars that Matter. We talk about cars
S1: that the kind of change the automotive landscape. But as
S1: I got into your book, I learned that the car
S1: we're going to talk about today really probably helped to
S1: change the course of history more than any vehicle ever made.
S1: Model T Fords, Volkswagen Beetles. I don't care because the Jeep,
S1: as we call the various iterations of them, that car
S1: that was born in 1940 was instrumental in helping to
S1: win World War Two. Without it and the heroes who
S1: use them, the world would be goosestepping today. And that's
S1: not an understatement. I think it's difficult for younger generations
S1: to really imagine what was at stake back then. You
S1: go back to nineteen forty four, I think of my dad.
S1: He was nineteen years old, blown off the deck of
S1: an aircraft carrier in the late Gulf, which was the
S1: largest naval battle in human history. Later on, when the
S1: American forces occupied Japan, he was there. The only thing
S1: he had that really kind of a lifeline for survival
S1: was a forty five automatic without any live ammo in
S1: it and a jeep. So that's a great way to
S1: talk about a car that really, really made an impact.
S1: What got you interested in these things? Well, it all
S1: started back in nineteen ninety nine I believe or not.
S1: So I've been at this for 20 years and at
S1: that time I was beginning to write screenplays. Believe it
S1: or not, I live an exceptionally exciting life. So I
S1: was watching the History Channel shock, nothing better. And they
S1: had on the big rigs of combat jeep. And just
S1: before a commercial break, they said the first jeep was
S1: created in 1940 by a bankrupt car company in Butler, Pennsylvania,
S1: and the astonishingly short timeframe of forty nine days. And
S1: I'm like, what is that all about? So I watched
S1: after obviously the commercial break and found out that was
S1: basically the case. And I said that would make a
S1: great screenplay. And it's true, these guys had nothing bankrupt
S1: given this impossible task. All sorts of conflict, all sorts
S1: of things to overcome the world hanging in the balance
S1: and May, June, July 1940 with the Battle of Britain.
S1: So that's how I started pursuing it and I started
S1: researching it. I worked on the screenplay for about 12
S1: years to two eleven. We were never able to get
S1: the movie made, despite a lot of efforts around 211.
S1: I decided I really wanted this story to get out there.
S1: So we decided when to say we it's my late
S1: wife and I that we would write a book. And
S1: that ended up being the first book Project Management in history.
S1: In the first Geep, you said, I've really gone in
S1: deep into it. The key that way, the both books
S1: possible was a court case, the Federal Trade Commission versus
S1: Willis Overland Motors Inc. That was actually done during the war,
S1: where it's literally an ultimate deposit of early history. When
S1: I was able to find that in the archives and
S1: all the materials that was there, the story was there
S1: to be told. And we told the first one just
S1: the ban BRC in the first book. And then for
S1: the 80th anniversary, we decided to change it from a
S1: project management book into a history book and add Willis
S1: and Ford to the mix, plus the competition between the
S1: three throwout made forty one, because the first three jeeps,
S1: the ones I mentioned, the BRC, the Willis and the
S1: Ford were all built in nineteen forty. The more I
S1: found out about the story, the more amazing it becomes.
S1: So you really have a Ph.D. in Jeep. And for
S1: those of us who have barely graduated from kindergarten, let's
S1: go back to the beginning for a minute and kind
S1: of set the stage. I was reading your book, some
S1: amazing stuff. And by the way, the first chapter is
S1: really a great primer on the history of American politics.
S1: From Woodrow Wilson to the beginning of the war, World
S1: War Two, it really set the stage and got me
S1: to understand that America was a very pacifist nation. They
S1: had very little military infrastructure. And I guess by the
S1: time 1940 rolls around, the Germans are fine tuning their blitzkrieg,
S1: their lightning war. The US Army was still practically using
S1: mules and carts to haul stuff around. I couldn't even
S1: believe that. Yeah, that's absolutely correct. And your synopsis of
S1: the interwar years is spot on. You had the decade
S1: of the nineteen twenties where you didn't really have a
S1: major threat to world peace. So they called it the
S1: peace decade. We talk a little bit about that. Then
S1: in the nineteen thirties you just had this slight thing
S1: going on called the Great Depression. That's right. But seriously,
S1: there was no money. They were spending the money on
S1: the New Deal, on domestic programs. The army was starved.
S1: So by the time he got to thirty eight, thirty nine,
S1: the American military was ranked like 19th in the world
S1: behind Bulgaria and meanwhile the clouds of war were gathering
S1: fast in Europe. The writing was on the wall. Swastikas
S1: were everywhere. And of course, then the Japanese bombed us
S1: on December eight, nineteen forty one. And I guess they
S1: recognized the need for a cheap rate before that happened
S1: in the late thirties, especially in infantry. And we document
S1: this in the book. They did a lot of testing
S1: on vehicles. They came up with a Mormon Harington four
S1: by four for what the infantry was looking for. But
S1: through some challenges in the procurement process, to put it nicely,
S1: they didn't get what they wanted. You also needed a
S1: vehicle that could be used across the using arms, had
S1: that level of versatility, not only infantry, but Calvary Field
S1: Artillery ordnance. And so by May of 1940, the middle
S1: of the month, two weeks into Hitler's blitzkrieg, into the
S1: low countries of France, they had a meeting at Camp Holabird, Maryland,
S1: with all the using arms, looking at a vehicle that
S1: could replace the mule and the horse for transporting small
S1: payloads and troops. And they needed something between the motorcycle
S1: and sidecar and a half ton truck. And at that
S1: meeting May twenty first nineteen forty, they had nothing, zip, nada,
S1: nothing on the drawing board, nothing in concept, and that's
S1: where they stood. Then the miracle started to happen. You
S1: mentioned three companies and I got a jeep. Initially I
S1: thought it was a jeep. But apparently you're talking about
S1: everything from Bantam to Ford to Willis. So one of
S1: the guys at that main meeting in the infantry goes
S1: back to his office and the American Bantam Car Company,
S1: which would build the first jeep there, representative. And the
S1: gentleman's name was Colonel O.S.S. He goes back to his
S1: office and the banner representative is sitting in his window
S1: waiting for him. And he comes in. And the short
S1: version of the conversation is the gentleman was named by
S1: Charles Payne, the Bantam representative. He says, I'm looking for
S1: Robert Howay of the Howre machine gun carry, which is
S1: documented in the book. We need to talk about vehicles.
S1: We think we can build one for you and says
S1: I'm the guy that you need to talk to. And
S1: so they came up in two weeks with a general
S1: characteristics they needed for a vehicle that would be infantries need,
S1: which was needed away about thirteen hundred pounds, low silhouette,
S1: carry three people, be able to mount a machine gun,
S1: so on and so forth. The memo was dated June six, 1940,
S1: exactly four years to the day before D-Day. That's an
S1: a day I think you said your dad was in
S1: the late Gulf. So in two weeks they came up
S1: with the general characteristics for a vehicle and then the
S1: story continued from there. Let's put this in perspective for
S1: a guy my age. I mean, I remember when Studebaker
S1: was around, but that's about it. I certainly don't remember
S1: any bantams. What the heck was a bantam? The American
S1: Bantam Car Company was the successor to a company called
S1: the American Auston Car Company from England. Right. But they
S1: had an American arm, is that correct? Yeah, little tiny cars, tiny,
S1: tiny cars. And they built these tiny cars, the Austin
S1: seven in the twenties and was very successful in Europe.
S1: And Sir Herbert Austin in the late twenties wanted to
S1: bring it to America. Well, of course he brings it
S1: right at beginning of the Depression. American Austin goes bankrupt.
S1: Four years later, the company's bought by an exceptional gentleman
S1: named Roy Evans for Reconstitutes, the company in nineteen thirty
S1: five thirty six. They try to sell small cars late
S1: in the Depression. There's no market for it. So in
S1: the spring of 1940, the America Bantam Car Company, which
S1: was the premier small car company in the country, is completely, utterly,
S1: totally bankrupt. They have nothing. And their only last shot
S1: to stay in existence is to get a government contract.
S1: They were doing the Hail Mary pass before they invented
S1: that in the seventies and football. So clearly the Bantam
S1: Car Company had experience building lightweight cars. And we talk
S1: about this jeep being up. You say fifteen hundred pound vehicle.
S1: That was one of the bugaboos in the whole procurement
S1: and I was a project manager. So, Robert, this is
S1: a requirement you don't want to have developed this way.
S1: The Army decided we need something between this motorcycle and
S1: sidecar and a half ton truck. So that's five hundred
S1: pounds to twelve pounds. So this vehicle's just going to
S1: magically way without talking to anyone that would actually build it.
S1: It's gonna have to weigh thirteen hundred pounds. Nobody could
S1: build a vehicle for thirteen hundred pounds. No, that's unthinkable.
S1: I mean unless it's a load of Super seven or something.
S1: The Nazis were building their Kubel Fagin's, those tin cans
S1: and those things weigh two thousand pounds apiece. Exactly. So
S1: the weight requirement was a real issue for all the
S1: three manufacturers throughout the procurement. But what happened was they
S1: put a thing on the June six memo for armoured
S1: face shielding. And why did they do that? Oh, Seth
S1: basically says, I was upset at the quartermaster and I
S1: didn't want the quartermaster to procure this vehicle, which is
S1: what the quartermaster does. So by putting that requirement in,
S1: it would go to the Ordnance Committee. So I went
S1: over to ordnance in mid-June, an order that said, you know,
S1: we have absolutely no clue how to procure or build
S1: a vehicle. Let's go visit Badam and see what they
S1: say to do. And that's what happened. They went to
S1: ban them. And it's documented in the book those two days.
S1: And I just figured that the change is eighty years later,
S1: I'm really upset at the quartermaster because they didn't give
S1: us one of the last. So we'll see if we
S1: could shove this over on your dad to see how
S1: that goes. What a great story. So it sounds like
S1: Bantam actually made a miracle happen, what you had there
S1: and you also had it, Willis and Ford is 1940
S1: was kind of the end of the initial time of
S1: the car industry. So you look at the car industry
S1: and we do a lot of history of that, both
S1: for Barnum and Willis. These people that started say nineteen
S1: hundred to nineteen forty, they were hands on experts built
S1: them themselves into the details of actually building the vehicles.
S1: They did some office and design it and then have
S1: someone else build it. They built them. So Barnham, you
S1: had these exceptional individuals that had cars in their blood
S1: and the same at Willis and the same at Ford,
S1: and that's why they were able to pull off the miracle.
S1: The forty nine days that was called with Barnum, they
S1: basically had built it, reverse engineering it where they actually
S1: built the parts, put it together, and then they would
S1: do the blueprints and the forty nine day requirement from
S1: the army. That was another well thought out one which
S1: was like how long do we think we need. Let's
S1: just doing a forty nine days and Barnham, they built
S1: their vehicle in forty nine days and delivered it on
S1: the forty ninth day with a half an hour to spare.
S1: This is a great movie. It's more exciting than Tucker
S1: or any of those others. I hope to heck a
S1: Hollywood producer is listening to this because you got a
S1: blockbuster there. Forty nine days to build a car. So
S1: that's what Bantam was doing. But again, I'm confused because
S1: there were some other names that you dropped, Ford and Willis.
S1: What happened with Willis was Willis struggle during the Depression.
S1: So they were conveniently not bankrupt in nineteen forty, but
S1: they were still not where they were. The glory days
S1: back in the 20s and they really wanted to get
S1: in on this cheap stuff. So what happened was the
S1: army developed the specifications working with Barnham from mid-June to
S1: early July, Bantam thought they would get a negotiated contract. No,
S1: they went out and sent the bid to one hundred
S1: and thirty five companies. Only four came to the bid
S1: in July. Twenty second nineteen forty one was Willis. It
S1: was Banham. And then Ford and Chrysler. Ford and Chrysler said,
S1: we can't even build this. Seventy five. We can't build
S1: this in forty nine days. We're not even going to bid.
S1: Willis put in a time material bid. The guy comes
S1: out and Bantams bid was perfect. They had a drawing
S1: and I actually held Banon's bid proposal in my hand. Butler, Pennsylvania.
S1: Da da da da. It's all major laws. Who was
S1: the head of procuring vehicles at Camp Holabird, Maryland, which
S1: was the primary depot at the time? It's outside of Baltimore.
S1: It's no longer in existence. It comes out and says, well,
S1: Barnum and Willis Willis has a little bit in the
S1: band of People Turn White and possible. And then he says,
S1: But Willis can't build it in. Forty nine days are
S1: saying with seventy five days, Barnum says they can do
S1: in a forty nine days. So with penalty Willis is disqualified.
S1: Now I tell you I don't think Barnum didn't know
S1: if they could do it in forty nine days, but
S1: they were bankrupt. What did they have to lose. So
S1: so sure you needed forty nine days. Thumbs up. We'll
S1: get it to you. No problem. But it at forty
S1: eight and twenty three hours and a half. So what
S1: happened with Willis was they lose the bid short version,
S1: the army contacts and they cut this deal on the
S1: side unbeknownst to Barnham Willis, if you want to build
S1: a vehicle at your own expense and your own risk, we,
S1: the Army are wonderful human beings. We will take a
S1: look at it and consider it. So Willis did that
S1: to their credit, these guys just marvel at the quality
S1: of individuals that were abandoned. Willis Ford sold. Willis built
S1: their vehicle. They spent thirty five thousand dollars of nineteen
S1: forty money. And I looked that off recently. That's like
S1: six hundred and forty thousand dollars today. That's real money.
S1: So Willis got their vehicle in then Ford looking at
S1: an early October of nineteen forty. They're like the ban
S1: of vehicle is in but Barnham small. We don't know
S1: how they may do. I was in government. I know
S1: you can have a little bit of a bias toward
S1: bigger firms, less risk, that type of thing. So the
S1: quartermaster calls up Ford in October of nineteen forty. They
S1: come down on October 4th. Nineteen forty, have a meeting.
S1: And the quartermaster, you know, Ford, if you want to
S1: build a vehicle and submit it to our specs and
S1: the things we're doing, we will take a look at
S1: it and give you a shot at it. So that's
S1: how Ford came in and they were able to build
S1: their vehicle about seven weeks also. But they had a
S1: lot of lessons learned from Bannermen Willis that was kind
S1: of shared with them. I'm not going to say it
S1: was inappropriate. It's just the stuff was there. And plus
S1: they were Ford. They had some economies of scale that
S1: would allow them to leverage that short time frame and
S1: the size of the company and the team that they
S1: had to work with. So they had a good team,
S1: a lot of resources. So Banham delivered on September twenty
S1: third nineteen forty Willis delivered on November 13th, nineteen forty
S1: and Ford delivered on November twenty third nineteen forty. So
S1: those first three original jeeps which are documented in the
S1: book all came in nineteen forty. So that's why we
S1: really wanted to put the story out there for the
S1: 80th anniversary. Tell us about the weight so nobody can
S1: meet the weight. Right. Would ban them. They hire this
S1: engineer because they have no staff. He comes to Butler,
S1: draws up all the plans in like eighteen hours and
S1: then they fill out the forms and he puts a.
S1: Hundred pounds in the weight, they go down to Camp Holabird, Maryland,
S1: on Sunday, July twenty first and meet with Charles Payne,
S1: who I mentioned earlier. He looks at the form and
S1: he goes crazy. He goes, You can't put an eighteen
S1: hundred pounds for the weight because you'll be disqualified. This
S1: is a government procurement. You've got to check the check boxes, Robert.
S1: They literally call up a stenographer three, 30 in the morning.
S1: They retype all the forms. And 20 years later, Carl
S1: Probst is recounting this and he says, We put in
S1: twelve hundred and seventy three pounds for the weight. I
S1: go to the archives and to 13 I find their
S1: bid proposal. I look at the weight box and it
S1: says twelve hundred and seventy three pounds. And I know
S1: exactly where that number came from. It was a moment
S1: as a historian going, this is the exact document and
S1: he put in twelve hundred seventy three passes. We don't
S1: want to be too close to thirteen hundred because that
S1: might not look that was a great story. I know
S1: you're right, you can't make this stuff up. Incredible. What
S1: are these things actually end up weighing? Did the US
S1: government care what they weighed in the run? They did.
S1: After a lot of going back and forth in the
S1: testing and in February of forty one, I think they
S1: came up with twenty one hundred and sixty pounds. Officially,
S1: Willis came in at twenty one fifty nine and 11 ounces.
S1: Well they were right on the edge. I used to
S1: say if you wanted to disqualify Willis, just put your
S1: foot on the scale under way in the man. They'd
S1: be fine. But I got to tell you this story.
S1: They're testing the bantam in October of nineteen forty in
S1: these generals come out, Calvary General and an infantry general,
S1: and they go, we want to go out in his vehicle.
S1: So they go out, they get stock while their stock
S1: sitting there waiting for someone to pull them out. They go,
S1: how much is this way? And Karl Propst and Charles
S1: Payne were there. So Charles Payne tried to start working
S1: around the way to say, well, we're going to get
S1: it the way a little bit lighter. And Probst is saying, well,
S1: it weighs this and that. And the generals go, you
S1: know what? If the two of us could lift the
S1: back of this out of where we're stock, the weight's good.
S1: They go behind it. The two of them lift that
S1: vehicle out of where they were stock and they go,
S1: you know what? Thumbs up. It's all good weights. Good.
S1: Another one of those exceptionally scientific ways to decide something
S1: like that story, a story about it. Make this stuff up.
S1: Like you say, this is really one for the ages.
S1: We're going to take a short break, but we'll be
S1: right back.
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S1: Welcome back to the cars that matter. So, Paul, I
S1: did a little bit of research on my own, I
S1: got so interested in some of these things after reading
S1: your book. And it's amazing how you connect the dots.
S1: We talk about Six Degrees of separation. We just recently
S1: had a guest on our show who's the director of
S1: the Historic Vehicle Association. And lo and behold, in the
S1: National Historic Vehicle Register is the very first Ford Pilot model,
S1: number one pygmy. I guess that's down in the US
S1: Veterans Memorial Museum in Huntsville, Alabama. What a remarkable artifact
S1: that thing is. Yeah, I think the Ford sold the
S1: thing off in the 80s to somebody and they realized
S1: what they had. The Willis prototype was lost to history,
S1: as far as I know. But the Barnham prototype that
S1: was also lost to history but the seventh Bantam ever
S1: built was called the BRC 60. That's actually at the
S1: Smithsonian in Butler, Pennsylvania, is just north of Pittsburgh and
S1: they call it Gramps. So you have the two oldest jeeps.
S1: The oldest first jeep is the Ford Pygmy. Absolutely. And
S1: then you have Gramps and Pittsburgh also. And so that's
S1: like amazing that you use the absolutely correct term artifacts
S1: that you have for that. Now, one of the things
S1: I find interesting was I found the list. What happened
S1: is Bantam got a contract to build 70 if their
S1: pilot model was accepted. Their pilot model is accepted in
S1: October of 94 and they started building their vehicles. Gramps
S1: number seven on the list of when it was completed,
S1: December 7th, 1940, literally a year to the day before
S1: Pearl Harbor. That's amazing. These things. I mean, they look
S1: like old, basically, Popeye spinach can they're so tinny and
S1: primitive looking now when you look at them. And they
S1: did the job and looking at the little pygmy, the
S1: Ford pygmy, that's the one that has the kind of
S1: iconic grill that we see even on Jeeps today. It
S1: was sort of those vertical slats with the little headlights
S1: poking out from either side. Talk about an industrial design
S1: that's had some longevity. The Barnum and the Willis, they
S1: used a rounded hood early on Barnham because they base
S1: their design a little bit on what was called the
S1: Barnham Roadster. And then Ford came up with the flat hood,
S1: as you mentioned, with the slats and the army really
S1: like that. So moving forward. And that was one of
S1: the things you had all three of the Jeeps document
S1: in the book. They kind of were very similar because
S1: they were built to the same specs, which because I
S1: like to geek out on this stuff, is four seventy five.
S1: We actually have that speck in the book and concept drawings,
S1: zero eight three seven zero Dash Z, which is in
S1: the book, and I got to hold that in my hand.
S1: So they built them to those specs. So there was
S1: a lot of similarities, but there also were differences. And
S1: then after the first three were in the vehicle evolved
S1: over nineteen forty one to eventually the will assembly and
S1: the Army, to their credit, took the very best of
S1: all three, so on and so forth as the vehicle
S1: evolved and the testing went on and feedback was given
S1: from all the different using arms. But Bantam they got
S1: it so right on the first time though their pilot
S1: was universally loved from the beginning, again, a testament, the
S1: talent of people have been on the four individuals, but
S1: also Willis's and Ford. If I can mention one other thing, Willis,
S1: to their credit, Del Maru's, their vice president in charge
S1: of engineering. They had an engine called the Go Devil.
S1: That's right. They had a great engine in that that
S1: was the heart of the machine. So they said right
S1: in his testimony in the court case, I mentioned that
S1: I knew you could never have enough power in a
S1: military vehicle. The problem was that engine was much heavier
S1: than the engines that bannermen Ford were using because they
S1: were trying to at least ostensibly meet the weight requirement.
S1: I use that word loosely, but they got it done.
S1: And that was the big difference with the Willis. They
S1: had a sixty horsepower engine and versus a forty horsepower
S1: engine for Barnum and Ford. And when the wilesmith, which
S1: was their second generation, came out, they got the weight
S1: at a good place. They had that engine in it.
S1: They had a really good competitor. But I found in
S1: the archives Del Maru's talking about how they got the
S1: go devel engine improved and made better for putting in
S1: their jeeps. And that engine was used in every Willa's
S1: jeep from the quad to the fifteen hundred EMS to
S1: the three hundred and thirty thousand and these that were built.
S1: So I just I like to say geek out on it,
S1: but that is great information. The guy that fine tuned
S1: the engine that won the war right in our book,
S1: the big question is what eventually got made and who
S1: made it spot on. Robert, great question. So what happened
S1: was by the spring of nineteen forty one, you had
S1: Baynham stirred iteration of their vehicle called the Bercy Forty.
S1: You had the Willis Wilesmith and the Ford was called
S1: the general purpose. The they did a lot of testing
S1: in early spring of forty one into the summer. In
S1: the summer of nineteen forty one, the army decided we're
S1: going to go out winner take all sole source contract.
S1: Sixteen thousand jeeps, all three bid. Willis had the best entry,
S1: lowest price and Willis won the contract. There's some stories
S1: behind that. What would I like to say to people
S1: is as I looked through the documents and read the
S1: raw primary material in the summer of nineteen. Four to
S1: the Army's like, you know what, pool gets 70 of these,
S1: let's go for 70. Wow, that's a lot. And then
S1: the next version, they give fifteen hundred contracts to all
S1: the forty five hundred within a series of months from
S1: winter of 1940 to July of nineteen forty one, you
S1: just see the army at dawning on them the magnitude
S1: of the conflict they were going to get into. I
S1: think it was June 20th or twenty first nineteen forty
S1: one Operation Barbarossa. So about a month later they evolved
S1: from seventy a year later to sixteen thousand, eventually would
S1: build 600000 plus jeeps for the war. So that's another
S1: amazing thing you see in the story. The change in
S1: thinking that they really didn't understand in nineteen four to
S1: the magnitude of what was coming. And that's not a criticism,
S1: it's just a fact. I read in your book though
S1: it sounds like Bantam got a little bit of a
S1: consolation prize. Fantome was able to build trailers for the war.
S1: What happened was Willis won the contract. Bannon was basically
S1: frozen out. And this is another one of the stories
S1: I love by October, November of nineteen forty one. This
S1: is not document in the book, but it's talked about
S1: a little bit in the epilogue. The Army realizes we're
S1: going to need even more of these than Willis can build.
S1: And also they were worried about sabotage and other things
S1: and bombings, which never happened. But there was actually sabotage
S1: in World War One at a New Jersey manufacturing plant.
S1: Speaking of your esoteric history, Robert, so that was still
S1: in their mind. So they said we're going to need
S1: a second supplier of this. So they go to Willis
S1: and say, you know what, Willis? We think Ford should
S1: build these and they should build your model because we
S1: want to stay standard under license. How what do you
S1: think of that? And shockingly, Willis said, you know, that
S1: sounds like a good idea to us. Right? It's like
S1: a Godfather offer. You know, we're going to make an
S1: offer you can't refuse. So that's how Ford was able
S1: to get in on the building for the war. And
S1: Ford renamed their general purpose, W. General-Purpose Willis. And they built, like,
S1: I think it was two hundred seventy seven thousand. But
S1: I just love that story. That is really amazing. Is
S1: that Ford Caldas, the general purpose, the Jeep where the
S1: name Jeep come from, I don't think anybody can ever
S1: really know. There's theories. It was Yujin, the Jeep, there's theories.
S1: It was from Jeep, from general purpose. But what I
S1: found out later on was in the interwar years, the
S1: people would call a lot of different vehicles that would
S1: come in to the depot, jeeps, new vehicles, experimental vehicles
S1: for I don't know why, for whatever reason. My best
S1: theory is we documented this from the court case. They
S1: spent a lot of time and this was during the
S1: war just a few years after everything happened, trying to
S1: find out where the Jeep name came from. And all
S1: they could conclude was we don't really know because there's
S1: conflicts in the stories, but that they probably started calling
S1: these things cheap. Originally, they were calling them the Barnum,
S1: the Willis, the Ford. They were known as a quarter ton,
S1: four by four truck. So they probably start calling them
S1: Jeeps in the fall and winter of 1940 and then
S1: in the nineteen forty one and the name just stuck
S1: to the quarter tons as they call them, even though
S1: they never really weighed a quarter ton. That's how they
S1: became known as Jeep. That's our best guess. If they
S1: couldn't figure out with all these people they deposed for
S1: the court case exactly where it came from, I could
S1: live with that. But that's the best that we have
S1: at this point. It's sort of like the argument about
S1: where did Uncle Sam come from? Where'd that name come from?
S1: Where do they call the old guy with the top
S1: hat and the beard? Uncle Sam? These are one of
S1: the great mysteries. Paul, we have to take a quick break,
S1: but we'll be back in just a moment,
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S1: We're back with Paul Bruno. Your book touches on this
S1: very critical point in the genesis of this vehicle, but
S1: can you help our listeners understand what happened after the war?
S1: Where did the Jeep go from there? And how did
S1: it eventually become a jeep with the Jeep name on
S1: the front? So what happened at the end of the war?
S1: Ford said, you know what? We don't want to build
S1: any more jeeps. So they just stopped. Willis wanted to
S1: carry on the Jeep and they did. And they tried
S1: to sell Jeeps after the war with varying success. And
S1: what's happened to the Jeep brand and this is in
S1: the epilogue of the book, it seems like every 10
S1: years has been bought by a new company around the
S1: mid 50s. Kaiser bought out Willis in the early 60s.
S1: They changed the name from Willis Jeep, the Kaiser Jeep.
S1: So the Willis name went out, I think it was
S1: around 1970, American Motors Corp., famous as the two of
S1: us older people would know for the Pasir put a
S1: little more glass on the Pacer. Oh, and by the way,
S1: we got a gremlin out of the deal, too. So
S1: there was a whole lot of crap there. I mean,
S1: it's like American Motors on the Jeep. Are you kidding me?
S1: So then Chrysler decided to buy the Jeep brand from
S1: American Motors when they ran into trouble in the late 80s.
S1: I think, boy is the smartest thing that company ever
S1: did because it's the only thing keeping them afloat today.
S1: Exactly 10 years later, Daimler buys Chrysler two thousand seven
S1: a Chrysler. Daimler has some issues. They turn into FCA
S1: and then Mussad scheduled 10 years later, FCA merges with Peugeot.
S1: The key to me for the story, though, is you
S1: look at the first three Jeeps on the cover of
S1: the book and in my opinion, the DNA of all
S1: the Jeeps ever built. What I even see one on
S1: the road today go back to those first three in
S1: those hands on individuals that ban them at will, as
S1: at Ford that put that ruggedness, put that exceptionalism, put
S1: that versatility into the Jeep DNA. And that's what's carried
S1: down through all the corporate changes, all the other changes.
S1: They were really the first some people say SUV. It
S1: was four wheel drive, which was very revolutionary at the time.
S1: That's right. There's a lot of stuff in the book,
S1: literary detail of how they developed the axles from a
S1: company called Spizer Manufacturing, which was coincidentally in Toledo along
S1: with Willis, if that became what we now know is
S1: the rear end. So that's to me is the real
S1: legacy is how well these were built that 80 years later,
S1: you still see them on the road, still being built new.
S1: But more importantly, the vehicle lasted 40 years and service
S1: almost 50 years to the late 80s. And military equipment
S1: goes obsolete very quickly. Have a fifty year service life.
S1: That Jeep was so well built and did what it
S1: was supposed to do so well, which you mentioned earlier,
S1: is a real testament to all the people and early history.
S1: And it's a real privilege to me, very humbling to
S1: tell their story. I wanted to do a little research
S1: and looked up something that the greatest journalist, the war
S1: correspondent Ernie Pyle, who was actually killed in action. But
S1: he was the greatest American war correspondent by far. He
S1: wrote at the time, Good Lord, I don't think we
S1: could continue the war without the Jeep. It does everything.
S1: And I have to give credit. A friend of mine, Steve,
S1: he found this book, D-Day, through the German Eyes and
S1: in the book. And we put this as the ending
S1: to our book, The Original Jeeps. This soldier said, when
S1: we saw the allies come on shore, completely mechanized. And
S1: that was very much due to the Jeep. And we,
S1: the vaunted German Vermaak, was still using horses and had veterinarians.
S1: We knew we were facing a mighty opponent. And that's
S1: just another one of those testaments to what the Jeep
S1: meant to warfare in World War Two in modern warfare,
S1: that we ended the book on that. And you probably
S1: can't make a better movie either. I'm telling you, man,
S1: you've got to get this thing made because it is
S1: a fascinating story. Just the way I'm wired, I read
S1: the documents and I can feel the people in them.
S1: So when I found in the archives, when I found
S1: the court case and they had deposed all these people,
S1: I realized that you had the people just a few
S1: years after all the events telling exactly what happened. Now,
S1: as an historian, oral history, which just is what would
S1: be usually you have you never get that exactly again.
S1: As a historian with oral history, you have two problems. One,
S1: it could be done long after the event. So people's
S1: memories are not as good. And then, shockingly, this never happens,
S1: except when it does, people might embellish their role and
S1: what they do and so on and so forth. But
S1: they were in a court case, so they were being
S1: deposed under oath. So they had to tell the truth
S1: of what happened only a few years afterwards. This is
S1: exceptionally rare. So what I realized was my job is
S1: to allow the people that did it to tell their
S1: story and just tie the pieces together. The narrative now
S1: in the court case, and it's like 4000 pages of documents.
S1: So I read it all. It came alive for me
S1: while reading what these people did, but it wasn't an order.
S1: So what we did with the books is we were
S1: able to take all the pieces almost like a puzzle
S1: and put it in order, allowing the people who did
S1: the work, who lived the story to tell their story.
S1: The early history, and that was an exceptionally humbling privilege
S1: to be able to do that. Let's give a little
S1: bit of a fanfare to the two books that are
S1: available and tell us where our listeners can obtain those
S1: in the first place. Have people go to, as we
S1: have a Facebook page called The Original Jeeps? And I
S1: found it fascinating that you mentioned that your dad served
S1: in World War Two. One of the things we're doing
S1: out there at the original page, which is an homage
S1: to early history, but I had a couple uncles that
S1: served in the war and my cousin Nick and my
S1: cousin Gene got very close to were the children of Myanmar.
S1: Jamal Kalinich. My Uncle Nick served be twenty four out
S1: of Italy and my cousin shared some of the stories
S1: that his dad told them. And we're sharing those family
S1: stories out on our Facebook page. So we're really trying
S1: to encourage people like you. If you ever went out
S1: to our Facebook page Original Geeves and wanted to post
S1: a little bit about your dad's service, that little golf
S1: story sounded fascinating. They can do that at the original
S1: Facebook page. My aunt served in the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps.
S1: So we've got a couple of wackos out there, too.
S1: So that will give people, including yourself, a little bit
S1: of template that you can go by to post your stories.
S1: The book is available in paperback only at Amazon.com. However,
S1: for your listeners and anyone to listen to any podcast
S1: that I've done for the same price as Amazon. Twenty
S1: dollars plus shipping, you can get an autographed copy signed
S1: by me, which, you know, in my humble opinion, what
S1: could be better than that? Nothing is better than a
S1: dedication by the author, right. They can go to despatcher magazine,
S1: dotcom books, despatcher magazine, dotcom books, order there. I get
S1: the information, I sign it and send it to the
S1: people and it's really, really good. So same price as
S1: Amazon plus shipping. And then lastly, we have a website,
S1: original Jeeps, Dotcom, with loads of early history things people
S1: can find out there a little bit more and get
S1: a primer of what we've talked about here today at
S1: original Jeeps dot com. Paul, we're having this conversation over
S1: Zoom and of course, our listeners are going to be
S1: enjoying the audio tracks. But I see in your background,
S1: you've got a very interesting image. Can you tell us
S1: what that is? Well, I appreciate you asking about that.
S1: That is a photograph that I downloaded from the American
S1: Battlefield Trust, which I'm on their mailing lists and support
S1: what they do. The image you're seeing is actually from a..
S1: To Maryland. It's called Burnside's Bridge from the Battle of
S1: Antietam on September 17th, 1862. And I've actually visited there.
S1: I used to live on the East Coast. I was
S1: born and raised in Albany, New York, a place called Colonie,
S1: literally 20 miles south of one of the ten great
S1: battles in all of history, the Battle of Saratoga and 1777.
S1: And I used to visit those battlefields and I have
S1: visited a lot of battlefields and I love them. The
S1: nature is wonderful. The history is overwhelming. When you visit them,
S1: it just permeates you. You just feel it. It's a
S1: whole different feeling. Exactly. So the American Battlefield Trust originally
S1: was dedicated to preserving civil war history. Then they expanded
S1: to Revolutionary War in the War of 1812. And so
S1: when I came up with a Zoome background that seemed
S1: to be given my interest of military history that I
S1: visited many of these battlefields seemed like an appropriate some
S1: background for me. That certainly ties in perfectly with your
S1: interest in World War Two history and the way that
S1: came to life with the first Jeeps. Pick up a
S1: copy of the original Jeeps commemorating the birth of an
S1: icon nineteen forty to nineteen forty one by Paul Bruto. Paul,
S1: thanks for joining us. It was an honor and a
S1: privilege to be with you, Robert and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
S1: I don't deserve to have this much fun, but I
S1: appreciate you. Let me have it come back next time
S1: as we continue to talk about the passions that drive
S1: us and the passions we drive. This episode of Cars
S1: That Matter was hosted by Robert Ross, produced by Chris Border,
S1: edited by Chris Porter, theme song by Celeste Anorectic, Additional
S1: Music and Sound by Chris Porter. Please, like subscribe and
S1: share this podcast. I'm Robert Ross and thanks for listening.
S3: Kurt Media. Media, for your mind.