1 00:00:02,590 --> 00:00:03,850 UU: From critical media. 2 00:00:05,430 --> 00:00:09,260 S1: In my opinion, the DNA of all the chiefs ever 3 00:00:09,260 --> 00:00:12,080 S1: built what I even see one on the road today 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,020 S1: go back to those first three in those hands on 5 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:18,350 S1: individuals that ban them at will at Ford that put 6 00:00:18,350 --> 00:00:23,780 S1: that ruggedness, put that exceptionalism, put that versatility into the 7 00:00:23,780 --> 00:00:26,900 S1: Jeep DNA. That was the voice of Paul Bruno, our 8 00:00:26,900 --> 00:00:34,040 S1: guest today on cars that matter. This is cars that matter. 9 00:00:47,740 --> 00:00:50,750 S1: This is Robert Ross with another episode of Cars that Matter. 10 00:00:50,770 --> 00:00:53,920 S1: Welcome to our show and welcome Paul Bruno. It's great 11 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:56,270 S1: to have you on the show. Oh, great to be here, Robert. 12 00:00:56,290 --> 00:00:59,560 S1: And I'm looking forward to talking early history with you. Well, Paul, 13 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:01,540 S1: I'm not going to embarrass you, but the fact of 14 00:01:01,540 --> 00:01:04,150 S1: the matter is, you're kind of recognized as the preeminent 15 00:01:04,150 --> 00:01:07,030 S1: expert on the history and the origin of the Jeep. 16 00:01:07,030 --> 00:01:09,940 S1: You have dug deep. And in fact, your recent book, 17 00:01:09,940 --> 00:01:13,300 S1: just out 10, 20, 20, is called The Original Jeeps 18 00:01:13,300 --> 00:01:16,720 S1: commemorating the birth of an icon. Nineteen forty to nineteen 19 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,110 S1: forty one. Congratulations on that. But this isn't your first 20 00:01:20,110 --> 00:01:23,080 S1: Jeep rodeo either. Your other book called The First Jeep 21 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:25,510 S1: was published in twenty fourteen. So I get the feeling 22 00:01:25,510 --> 00:01:28,119 S1: that there's something that somebody needs to know about this 23 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,910 S1: particular vehicle. You're going to have the answer, the name 24 00:01:30,910 --> 00:01:33,490 S1: of the show, Cars that Matter. We talk about cars 25 00:01:33,490 --> 00:01:36,190 S1: that the kind of change the automotive landscape. But as 26 00:01:36,190 --> 00:01:38,289 S1: I got into your book, I learned that the car 27 00:01:38,290 --> 00:01:40,480 S1: we're going to talk about today really probably helped to 28 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:44,980 S1: change the course of history more than any vehicle ever made. 29 00:01:44,980 --> 00:01:48,910 S1: Model T Fords, Volkswagen Beetles. I don't care because the Jeep, 30 00:01:48,910 --> 00:01:51,760 S1: as we call the various iterations of them, that car 31 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,850 S1: that was born in 1940 was instrumental in helping to 32 00:01:54,850 --> 00:01:57,460 S1: win World War Two. Without it and the heroes who 33 00:01:57,460 --> 00:02:00,250 S1: use them, the world would be goosestepping today. And that's 34 00:02:00,250 --> 00:02:03,520 S1: not an understatement. I think it's difficult for younger generations 35 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,330 S1: to really imagine what was at stake back then. You 36 00:02:06,370 --> 00:02:08,679 S1: go back to nineteen forty four, I think of my dad. 37 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,260 S1: He was nineteen years old, blown off the deck of 38 00:02:11,260 --> 00:02:13,840 S1: an aircraft carrier in the late Gulf, which was the 39 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,900 S1: largest naval battle in human history. Later on, when the 40 00:02:16,900 --> 00:02:20,170 S1: American forces occupied Japan, he was there. The only thing 41 00:02:20,169 --> 00:02:22,840 S1: he had that really kind of a lifeline for survival 42 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,540 S1: was a forty five automatic without any live ammo in 43 00:02:25,540 --> 00:02:27,400 S1: it and a jeep. So that's a great way to 44 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:31,900 S1: talk about a car that really, really made an impact. 45 00:02:31,930 --> 00:02:34,150 S1: What got you interested in these things? Well, it all 46 00:02:34,150 --> 00:02:37,210 S1: started back in nineteen ninety nine I believe or not. 47 00:02:37,210 --> 00:02:39,730 S1: So I've been at this for 20 years and at 48 00:02:39,730 --> 00:02:43,300 S1: that time I was beginning to write screenplays. Believe it 49 00:02:43,300 --> 00:02:45,910 S1: or not, I live an exceptionally exciting life. So I 50 00:02:45,910 --> 00:02:49,240 S1: was watching the History Channel shock, nothing better. And they 51 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,180 S1: had on the big rigs of combat jeep. And just 52 00:02:52,180 --> 00:02:55,150 S1: before a commercial break, they said the first jeep was 53 00:02:55,150 --> 00:03:00,220 S1: created in 1940 by a bankrupt car company in Butler, Pennsylvania, 54 00:03:00,220 --> 00:03:03,190 S1: and the astonishingly short timeframe of forty nine days. And 55 00:03:03,190 --> 00:03:05,980 S1: I'm like, what is that all about? So I watched 56 00:03:05,980 --> 00:03:09,550 S1: after obviously the commercial break and found out that was 57 00:03:09,550 --> 00:03:12,130 S1: basically the case. And I said that would make a 58 00:03:12,130 --> 00:03:16,660 S1: great screenplay. And it's true, these guys had nothing bankrupt 59 00:03:16,690 --> 00:03:20,170 S1: given this impossible task. All sorts of conflict, all sorts 60 00:03:20,169 --> 00:03:23,020 S1: of things to overcome the world hanging in the balance 61 00:03:23,020 --> 00:03:26,169 S1: and May, June, July 1940 with the Battle of Britain. 62 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,420 S1: So that's how I started pursuing it and I started 63 00:03:28,419 --> 00:03:31,869 S1: researching it. I worked on the screenplay for about 12 64 00:03:31,870 --> 00:03:33,910 S1: years to two eleven. We were never able to get 65 00:03:33,910 --> 00:03:37,150 S1: the movie made, despite a lot of efforts around 211. 66 00:03:37,150 --> 00:03:40,570 S1: I decided I really wanted this story to get out there. 67 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,060 S1: So we decided when to say we it's my late 68 00:03:43,060 --> 00:03:45,010 S1: wife and I that we would write a book. And 69 00:03:45,010 --> 00:03:47,890 S1: that ended up being the first book Project Management in history. 70 00:03:47,890 --> 00:03:50,230 S1: In the first Geep, you said, I've really gone in 71 00:03:50,230 --> 00:03:53,110 S1: deep into it. The key that way, the both books 72 00:03:53,110 --> 00:03:57,610 S1: possible was a court case, the Federal Trade Commission versus 73 00:03:57,610 --> 00:04:01,360 S1: Willis Overland Motors Inc. That was actually done during the war, 74 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:05,920 S1: where it's literally an ultimate deposit of early history. When 75 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,200 S1: I was able to find that in the archives and 76 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,290 S1: all the materials that was there, the story was there 77 00:04:11,290 --> 00:04:14,740 S1: to be told. And we told the first one just 78 00:04:14,740 --> 00:04:17,410 S1: the ban BRC in the first book. And then for 79 00:04:17,410 --> 00:04:20,470 S1: the 80th anniversary, we decided to change it from a 80 00:04:20,470 --> 00:04:24,730 S1: project management book into a history book and add Willis 81 00:04:24,730 --> 00:04:27,520 S1: and Ford to the mix, plus the competition between the 82 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:31,240 S1: three throwout made forty one, because the first three jeeps, 83 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:33,729 S1: the ones I mentioned, the BRC, the Willis and the 84 00:04:33,730 --> 00:04:36,400 S1: Ford were all built in nineteen forty. The more I 85 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,790 S1: found out about the story, the more amazing it becomes. 86 00:04:39,790 --> 00:04:42,580 S1: So you really have a Ph.D. in Jeep. And for 87 00:04:42,580 --> 00:04:45,760 S1: those of us who have barely graduated from kindergarten, let's 88 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:47,560 S1: go back to the beginning for a minute and kind 89 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:49,630 S1: of set the stage. I was reading your book, some 90 00:04:49,630 --> 00:04:51,700 S1: amazing stuff. And by the way, the first chapter is 91 00:04:51,700 --> 00:04:55,450 S1: really a great primer on the history of American politics. 92 00:04:55,450 --> 00:04:58,390 S1: From Woodrow Wilson to the beginning of the war, World 93 00:04:58,390 --> 00:05:00,790 S1: War Two, it really set the stage and got me 94 00:05:00,790 --> 00:05:03,790 S1: to understand that America was a very pacifist nation. They 95 00:05:03,790 --> 00:05:06,729 S1: had very little military infrastructure. And I guess by the 96 00:05:06,730 --> 00:05:11,020 S1: time 1940 rolls around, the Germans are fine tuning their blitzkrieg, 97 00:05:11,020 --> 00:05:14,230 S1: their lightning war. The US Army was still practically using 98 00:05:14,230 --> 00:05:17,409 S1: mules and carts to haul stuff around. I couldn't even 99 00:05:17,410 --> 00:05:21,220 S1: believe that. Yeah, that's absolutely correct. And your synopsis of 100 00:05:21,220 --> 00:05:24,670 S1: the interwar years is spot on. You had the decade 101 00:05:24,670 --> 00:05:27,370 S1: of the nineteen twenties where you didn't really have a 102 00:05:27,370 --> 00:05:30,580 S1: major threat to world peace. So they called it the 103 00:05:30,580 --> 00:05:33,159 S1: peace decade. We talk a little bit about that. Then 104 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,099 S1: in the nineteen thirties you just had this slight thing 105 00:05:36,100 --> 00:05:40,240 S1: going on called the Great Depression. That's right. But seriously, 106 00:05:40,270 --> 00:05:42,310 S1: there was no money. They were spending the money on 107 00:05:42,310 --> 00:05:46,060 S1: the New Deal, on domestic programs. The army was starved. 108 00:05:46,180 --> 00:05:48,970 S1: So by the time he got to thirty eight, thirty nine, 109 00:05:48,970 --> 00:05:52,270 S1: the American military was ranked like 19th in the world 110 00:05:52,270 --> 00:05:55,390 S1: behind Bulgaria and meanwhile the clouds of war were gathering 111 00:05:55,390 --> 00:05:58,540 S1: fast in Europe. The writing was on the wall. Swastikas 112 00:05:58,540 --> 00:06:01,239 S1: were everywhere. And of course, then the Japanese bombed us 113 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,090 S1: on December eight, nineteen forty one. And I guess they 114 00:06:04,089 --> 00:06:06,790 S1: recognized the need for a cheap rate before that happened 115 00:06:06,790 --> 00:06:09,760 S1: in the late thirties, especially in infantry. And we document 116 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:11,740 S1: this in the book. They did a lot of testing 117 00:06:11,740 --> 00:06:14,890 S1: on vehicles. They came up with a Mormon Harington four 118 00:06:14,890 --> 00:06:18,100 S1: by four for what the infantry was looking for. But 119 00:06:18,100 --> 00:06:22,060 S1: through some challenges in the procurement process, to put it nicely, 120 00:06:22,060 --> 00:06:24,400 S1: they didn't get what they wanted. You also needed a 121 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,400 S1: vehicle that could be used across the using arms, had 122 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,180 S1: that level of versatility, not only infantry, but Calvary Field 123 00:06:31,180 --> 00:06:34,960 S1: Artillery ordnance. And so by May of 1940, the middle 124 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,950 S1: of the month, two weeks into Hitler's blitzkrieg, into the 125 00:06:37,950 --> 00:06:42,010 S1: low countries of France, they had a meeting at Camp Holabird, Maryland, 126 00:06:42,010 --> 00:06:45,400 S1: with all the using arms, looking at a vehicle that 127 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:49,089 S1: could replace the mule and the horse for transporting small 128 00:06:49,089 --> 00:06:52,240 S1: payloads and troops. And they needed something between the motorcycle 129 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,580 S1: and sidecar and a half ton truck. And at that 130 00:06:54,580 --> 00:06:59,950 S1: meeting May twenty first nineteen forty, they had nothing, zip, nada, 131 00:06:59,950 --> 00:07:03,880 S1: nothing on the drawing board, nothing in concept, and that's 132 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,360 S1: where they stood. Then the miracle started to happen. You 133 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,480 S1: mentioned three companies and I got a jeep. Initially I 134 00:07:10,570 --> 00:07:12,760 S1: thought it was a jeep. But apparently you're talking about 135 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,060 S1: everything from Bantam to Ford to Willis. So one of 136 00:07:16,090 --> 00:07:18,850 S1: the guys at that main meeting in the infantry goes 137 00:07:18,850 --> 00:07:22,060 S1: back to his office and the American Bantam Car Company, 138 00:07:22,060 --> 00:07:25,270 S1: which would build the first jeep there, representative. And the 139 00:07:25,270 --> 00:07:28,000 S1: gentleman's name was Colonel O.S.S. He goes back to his 140 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,580 S1: office and the banner representative is sitting in his window 141 00:07:30,580 --> 00:07:32,860 S1: waiting for him. And he comes in. And the short 142 00:07:32,860 --> 00:07:35,530 S1: version of the conversation is the gentleman was named by 143 00:07:35,530 --> 00:07:38,470 S1: Charles Payne, the Bantam representative. He says, I'm looking for 144 00:07:38,470 --> 00:07:41,020 S1: Robert Howay of the Howre machine gun carry, which is 145 00:07:41,020 --> 00:07:43,570 S1: documented in the book. We need to talk about vehicles. 146 00:07:43,570 --> 00:07:46,170 S1: We think we can build one for you and says 147 00:07:46,180 --> 00:07:48,489 S1: I'm the guy that you need to talk to. And 148 00:07:48,490 --> 00:07:51,490 S1: so they came up in two weeks with a general 149 00:07:51,490 --> 00:07:55,750 S1: characteristics they needed for a vehicle that would be infantries need, 150 00:07:55,750 --> 00:07:59,560 S1: which was needed away about thirteen hundred pounds, low silhouette, 151 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,210 S1: carry three people, be able to mount a machine gun, 152 00:08:02,230 --> 00:08:06,220 S1: so on and so forth. The memo was dated June six, 1940, 153 00:08:06,370 --> 00:08:10,210 S1: exactly four years to the day before D-Day. That's an 154 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:12,489 S1: a day I think you said your dad was in 155 00:08:12,490 --> 00:08:15,160 S1: the late Gulf. So in two weeks they came up 156 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:17,980 S1: with the general characteristics for a vehicle and then the 157 00:08:17,980 --> 00:08:20,730 S1: story continued from there. Let's put this in perspective for 158 00:08:20,740 --> 00:08:23,200 S1: a guy my age. I mean, I remember when Studebaker 159 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,360 S1: was around, but that's about it. I certainly don't remember 160 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,820 S1: any bantams. What the heck was a bantam? The American 161 00:08:27,820 --> 00:08:32,199 S1: Bantam Car Company was the successor to a company called 162 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,780 S1: the American Auston Car Company from England. Right. But they 163 00:08:34,780 --> 00:08:38,320 S1: had an American arm, is that correct? Yeah, little tiny cars, tiny, 164 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,439 S1: tiny cars. And they built these tiny cars, the Austin 165 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,920 S1: seven in the twenties and was very successful in Europe. 166 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,170 S1: And Sir Herbert Austin in the late twenties wanted to 167 00:08:47,170 --> 00:08:49,120 S1: bring it to America. Well, of course he brings it 168 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,600 S1: right at beginning of the Depression. American Austin goes bankrupt. 169 00:08:52,630 --> 00:08:55,750 S1: Four years later, the company's bought by an exceptional gentleman 170 00:08:55,750 --> 00:08:59,770 S1: named Roy Evans for Reconstitutes, the company in nineteen thirty 171 00:08:59,770 --> 00:09:02,510 S1: five thirty six. They try to sell small cars late 172 00:09:02,510 --> 00:09:05,170 S1: in the Depression. There's no market for it. So in 173 00:09:05,170 --> 00:09:08,920 S1: the spring of 1940, the America Bantam Car Company, which 174 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:13,780 S1: was the premier small car company in the country, is completely, utterly, 175 00:09:13,780 --> 00:09:17,290 S1: totally bankrupt. They have nothing. And their only last shot 176 00:09:17,290 --> 00:09:20,410 S1: to stay in existence is to get a government contract. 177 00:09:20,410 --> 00:09:22,990 S1: They were doing the Hail Mary pass before they invented 178 00:09:22,990 --> 00:09:25,900 S1: that in the seventies and football. So clearly the Bantam 179 00:09:25,900 --> 00:09:29,620 S1: Car Company had experience building lightweight cars. And we talk 180 00:09:29,620 --> 00:09:32,920 S1: about this jeep being up. You say fifteen hundred pound vehicle. 181 00:09:32,950 --> 00:09:35,560 S1: That was one of the bugaboos in the whole procurement 182 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:37,809 S1: and I was a project manager. So, Robert, this is 183 00:09:37,809 --> 00:09:40,510 S1: a requirement you don't want to have developed this way. 184 00:09:40,540 --> 00:09:43,570 S1: The Army decided we need something between this motorcycle and 185 00:09:43,570 --> 00:09:46,030 S1: sidecar and a half ton truck. So that's five hundred 186 00:09:46,030 --> 00:09:48,640 S1: pounds to twelve pounds. So this vehicle's just going to 187 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,300 S1: magically way without talking to anyone that would actually build it. 188 00:09:52,330 --> 00:09:54,729 S1: It's gonna have to weigh thirteen hundred pounds. Nobody could 189 00:09:54,730 --> 00:09:57,880 S1: build a vehicle for thirteen hundred pounds. No, that's unthinkable. 190 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,160 S1: I mean unless it's a load of Super seven or something. 191 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,069 S1: The Nazis were building their Kubel Fagin's, those tin cans 192 00:10:03,070 --> 00:10:06,010 S1: and those things weigh two thousand pounds apiece. Exactly. So 193 00:10:06,010 --> 00:10:08,890 S1: the weight requirement was a real issue for all the 194 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:12,790 S1: three manufacturers throughout the procurement. But what happened was they 195 00:10:12,790 --> 00:10:15,189 S1: put a thing on the June six memo for armoured 196 00:10:15,190 --> 00:10:17,440 S1: face shielding. And why did they do that? Oh, Seth 197 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,620 S1: basically says, I was upset at the quartermaster and I 198 00:10:20,620 --> 00:10:22,840 S1: didn't want the quartermaster to procure this vehicle, which is 199 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,689 S1: what the quartermaster does. So by putting that requirement in, 200 00:10:25,780 --> 00:10:27,640 S1: it would go to the Ordnance Committee. So I went 201 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,300 S1: over to ordnance in mid-June, an order that said, you know, 202 00:10:30,340 --> 00:10:32,920 S1: we have absolutely no clue how to procure or build 203 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,199 S1: a vehicle. Let's go visit Badam and see what they 204 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,059 S1: say to do. And that's what happened. They went to 205 00:10:37,059 --> 00:10:40,059 S1: ban them. And it's documented in the book those two days. 206 00:10:40,059 --> 00:10:42,910 S1: And I just figured that the change is eighty years later, 207 00:10:42,970 --> 00:10:44,939 S1: I'm really upset at the quartermaster because they didn't give 208 00:10:44,970 --> 00:10:46,720 S1: us one of the last. So we'll see if we 209 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,460 S1: could shove this over on your dad to see how 210 00:10:48,460 --> 00:10:50,980 S1: that goes. What a great story. So it sounds like 211 00:10:50,980 --> 00:10:53,950 S1: Bantam actually made a miracle happen, what you had there 212 00:10:53,950 --> 00:10:57,189 S1: and you also had it, Willis and Ford is 1940 213 00:10:57,190 --> 00:10:59,920 S1: was kind of the end of the initial time of 214 00:10:59,950 --> 00:11:02,199 S1: the car industry. So you look at the car industry 215 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,210 S1: and we do a lot of history of that, both 216 00:11:04,210 --> 00:11:07,480 S1: for Barnum and Willis. These people that started say nineteen 217 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:11,650 S1: hundred to nineteen forty, they were hands on experts built 218 00:11:11,650 --> 00:11:15,979 S1: them themselves into the details of actually building the vehicles. 219 00:11:15,980 --> 00:11:18,400 S1: They did some office and design it and then have 220 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,400 S1: someone else build it. They built them. So Barnham, you 221 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:26,980 S1: had these exceptional individuals that had cars in their blood 222 00:11:26,980 --> 00:11:29,170 S1: and the same at Willis and the same at Ford, 223 00:11:29,170 --> 00:11:31,420 S1: and that's why they were able to pull off the miracle. 224 00:11:31,420 --> 00:11:34,030 S1: The forty nine days that was called with Barnum, they 225 00:11:34,030 --> 00:11:37,179 S1: basically had built it, reverse engineering it where they actually 226 00:11:37,179 --> 00:11:39,250 S1: built the parts, put it together, and then they would 227 00:11:39,250 --> 00:11:41,800 S1: do the blueprints and the forty nine day requirement from 228 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,020 S1: the army. That was another well thought out one which 229 00:11:44,020 --> 00:11:45,660 S1: was like how long do we think we need. Let's 230 00:11:45,700 --> 00:11:48,490 S1: just doing a forty nine days and Barnham, they built 231 00:11:48,490 --> 00:11:51,880 S1: their vehicle in forty nine days and delivered it on 232 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:53,929 S1: the forty ninth day with a half an hour to spare. 233 00:11:53,980 --> 00:11:56,679 S1: This is a great movie. It's more exciting than Tucker 234 00:11:56,710 --> 00:11:58,690 S1: or any of those others. I hope to heck a 235 00:11:58,690 --> 00:12:01,209 S1: Hollywood producer is listening to this because you got a 236 00:12:01,210 --> 00:12:03,910 S1: blockbuster there. Forty nine days to build a car. So 237 00:12:03,910 --> 00:12:07,240 S1: that's what Bantam was doing. But again, I'm confused because 238 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,240 S1: there were some other names that you dropped, Ford and Willis. 239 00:12:10,270 --> 00:12:14,110 S1: What happened with Willis was Willis struggle during the Depression. 240 00:12:14,110 --> 00:12:17,020 S1: So they were conveniently not bankrupt in nineteen forty, but 241 00:12:17,050 --> 00:12:20,080 S1: they were still not where they were. The glory days 242 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,870 S1: back in the 20s and they really wanted to get 243 00:12:22,870 --> 00:12:26,020 S1: in on this cheap stuff. So what happened was the 244 00:12:26,020 --> 00:12:30,640 S1: army developed the specifications working with Barnham from mid-June to 245 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:34,960 S1: early July, Bantam thought they would get a negotiated contract. No, 246 00:12:34,990 --> 00:12:37,030 S1: they went out and sent the bid to one hundred 247 00:12:37,030 --> 00:12:40,330 S1: and thirty five companies. Only four came to the bid 248 00:12:40,330 --> 00:12:43,750 S1: in July. Twenty second nineteen forty one was Willis. It 249 00:12:43,750 --> 00:12:47,290 S1: was Banham. And then Ford and Chrysler. Ford and Chrysler said, 250 00:12:47,290 --> 00:12:49,720 S1: we can't even build this. Seventy five. We can't build 251 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:51,820 S1: this in forty nine days. We're not even going to bid. 252 00:12:51,820 --> 00:12:54,550 S1: Willis put in a time material bid. The guy comes 253 00:12:54,550 --> 00:12:57,970 S1: out and Bantams bid was perfect. They had a drawing 254 00:12:57,970 --> 00:13:02,170 S1: and I actually held Banon's bid proposal in my hand. Butler, Pennsylvania. 255 00:13:02,170 --> 00:13:04,630 S1: Da da da da. It's all major laws. Who was 256 00:13:04,630 --> 00:13:07,780 S1: the head of procuring vehicles at Camp Holabird, Maryland, which 257 00:13:07,780 --> 00:13:10,630 S1: was the primary depot at the time? It's outside of Baltimore. 258 00:13:10,660 --> 00:13:13,060 S1: It's no longer in existence. It comes out and says, well, 259 00:13:13,059 --> 00:13:15,760 S1: Barnum and Willis Willis has a little bit in the 260 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,730 S1: band of People Turn White and possible. And then he says, 261 00:13:18,730 --> 00:13:21,550 S1: But Willis can't build it in. Forty nine days are 262 00:13:21,550 --> 00:13:24,179 S1: saying with seventy five days, Barnum says they can do 263 00:13:24,190 --> 00:13:27,400 S1: in a forty nine days. So with penalty Willis is disqualified. 264 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,559 S1: Now I tell you I don't think Barnum didn't know 265 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:30,940 S1: if they could do it in forty nine days, but 266 00:13:30,970 --> 00:13:32,959 S1: they were bankrupt. What did they have to lose. So 267 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,130 S1: so sure you needed forty nine days. Thumbs up. We'll 268 00:13:36,130 --> 00:13:38,530 S1: get it to you. No problem. But it at forty 269 00:13:38,530 --> 00:13:42,040 S1: eight and twenty three hours and a half. So what 270 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,689 S1: happened with Willis was they lose the bid short version, 271 00:13:45,700 --> 00:13:49,059 S1: the army contacts and they cut this deal on the 272 00:13:49,059 --> 00:13:52,470 S1: side unbeknownst to Barnham Willis, if you want to build 273 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,449 S1: a vehicle at your own expense and your own risk, we, 274 00:13:55,450 --> 00:13:58,000 S1: the Army are wonderful human beings. We will take a 275 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,700 S1: look at it and consider it. So Willis did that 276 00:14:00,700 --> 00:14:03,970 S1: to their credit, these guys just marvel at the quality 277 00:14:03,970 --> 00:14:07,300 S1: of individuals that were abandoned. Willis Ford sold. Willis built 278 00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:11,709 S1: their vehicle. They spent thirty five thousand dollars of nineteen 279 00:14:11,710 --> 00:14:14,410 S1: forty money. And I looked that off recently. That's like 280 00:14:14,410 --> 00:14:17,770 S1: six hundred and forty thousand dollars today. That's real money. 281 00:14:17,770 --> 00:14:21,220 S1: So Willis got their vehicle in then Ford looking at 282 00:14:21,220 --> 00:14:23,950 S1: an early October of nineteen forty. They're like the ban 283 00:14:23,950 --> 00:14:26,980 S1: of vehicle is in but Barnham small. We don't know 284 00:14:26,980 --> 00:14:29,979 S1: how they may do. I was in government. I know 285 00:14:29,980 --> 00:14:31,870 S1: you can have a little bit of a bias toward 286 00:14:31,870 --> 00:14:34,660 S1: bigger firms, less risk, that type of thing. So the 287 00:14:34,660 --> 00:14:38,170 S1: quartermaster calls up Ford in October of nineteen forty. They 288 00:14:38,170 --> 00:14:40,960 S1: come down on October 4th. Nineteen forty, have a meeting. 289 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:42,910 S1: And the quartermaster, you know, Ford, if you want to 290 00:14:42,910 --> 00:14:46,330 S1: build a vehicle and submit it to our specs and 291 00:14:46,330 --> 00:14:48,340 S1: the things we're doing, we will take a look at 292 00:14:48,340 --> 00:14:50,290 S1: it and give you a shot at it. So that's 293 00:14:50,290 --> 00:14:52,090 S1: how Ford came in and they were able to build 294 00:14:52,090 --> 00:14:54,609 S1: their vehicle about seven weeks also. But they had a 295 00:14:54,610 --> 00:14:57,670 S1: lot of lessons learned from Bannermen Willis that was kind 296 00:14:57,670 --> 00:14:59,080 S1: of shared with them. I'm not going to say it 297 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,450 S1: was inappropriate. It's just the stuff was there. And plus 298 00:15:01,450 --> 00:15:03,970 S1: they were Ford. They had some economies of scale that 299 00:15:03,970 --> 00:15:06,960 S1: would allow them to leverage that short time frame and 300 00:15:06,970 --> 00:15:09,010 S1: the size of the company and the team that they 301 00:15:09,010 --> 00:15:10,900 S1: had to work with. So they had a good team, 302 00:15:10,900 --> 00:15:14,500 S1: a lot of resources. So Banham delivered on September twenty 303 00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:18,910 S1: third nineteen forty Willis delivered on November 13th, nineteen forty 304 00:15:18,910 --> 00:15:21,880 S1: and Ford delivered on November twenty third nineteen forty. So 305 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,239 S1: those first three original jeeps which are documented in the 306 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,970 S1: book all came in nineteen forty. So that's why we 307 00:15:27,970 --> 00:15:30,640 S1: really wanted to put the story out there for the 308 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,910 S1: 80th anniversary. Tell us about the weight so nobody can 309 00:15:33,910 --> 00:15:36,850 S1: meet the weight. Right. Would ban them. They hire this 310 00:15:36,850 --> 00:15:40,330 S1: engineer because they have no staff. He comes to Butler, 311 00:15:40,330 --> 00:15:43,600 S1: draws up all the plans in like eighteen hours and 312 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:45,540 S1: then they fill out the forms and he puts a. 313 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:49,400 S1: Hundred pounds in the weight, they go down to Camp Holabird, Maryland, 314 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,250 S1: on Sunday, July twenty first and meet with Charles Payne, 315 00:15:52,250 --> 00:15:54,740 S1: who I mentioned earlier. He looks at the form and 316 00:15:54,740 --> 00:15:58,370 S1: he goes crazy. He goes, You can't put an eighteen 317 00:15:58,370 --> 00:16:01,790 S1: hundred pounds for the weight because you'll be disqualified. This 318 00:16:01,790 --> 00:16:05,170 S1: is a government procurement. You've got to check the check boxes, Robert. 319 00:16:05,180 --> 00:16:08,960 S1: They literally call up a stenographer three, 30 in the morning. 320 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,960 S1: They retype all the forms. And 20 years later, Carl 321 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,090 S1: Probst is recounting this and he says, We put in 322 00:16:14,090 --> 00:16:16,729 S1: twelve hundred and seventy three pounds for the weight. I 323 00:16:16,730 --> 00:16:19,610 S1: go to the archives and to 13 I find their 324 00:16:19,610 --> 00:16:22,460 S1: bid proposal. I look at the weight box and it 325 00:16:22,460 --> 00:16:25,100 S1: says twelve hundred and seventy three pounds. And I know 326 00:16:25,100 --> 00:16:28,190 S1: exactly where that number came from. It was a moment 327 00:16:28,190 --> 00:16:31,610 S1: as a historian going, this is the exact document and 328 00:16:31,610 --> 00:16:33,560 S1: he put in twelve hundred seventy three passes. We don't 329 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:35,480 S1: want to be too close to thirteen hundred because that 330 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,150 S1: might not look that was a great story. I know 331 00:16:38,150 --> 00:16:40,580 S1: you're right, you can't make this stuff up. Incredible. What 332 00:16:40,580 --> 00:16:42,890 S1: are these things actually end up weighing? Did the US 333 00:16:42,890 --> 00:16:45,650 S1: government care what they weighed in the run? They did. 334 00:16:45,650 --> 00:16:49,100 S1: After a lot of going back and forth in the 335 00:16:49,100 --> 00:16:52,370 S1: testing and in February of forty one, I think they 336 00:16:52,370 --> 00:16:56,330 S1: came up with twenty one hundred and sixty pounds. Officially, 337 00:16:56,330 --> 00:17:00,920 S1: Willis came in at twenty one fifty nine and 11 ounces. 338 00:17:01,970 --> 00:17:04,220 S1: Well they were right on the edge. I used to 339 00:17:04,220 --> 00:17:06,620 S1: say if you wanted to disqualify Willis, just put your 340 00:17:06,619 --> 00:17:09,050 S1: foot on the scale under way in the man. They'd 341 00:17:09,050 --> 00:17:10,820 S1: be fine. But I got to tell you this story. 342 00:17:10,850 --> 00:17:13,820 S1: They're testing the bantam in October of nineteen forty in 343 00:17:13,820 --> 00:17:16,700 S1: these generals come out, Calvary General and an infantry general, 344 00:17:16,700 --> 00:17:18,200 S1: and they go, we want to go out in his vehicle. 345 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,960 S1: So they go out, they get stock while their stock 346 00:17:20,980 --> 00:17:23,720 S1: sitting there waiting for someone to pull them out. They go, 347 00:17:23,750 --> 00:17:27,200 S1: how much is this way? And Karl Propst and Charles 348 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,719 S1: Payne were there. So Charles Payne tried to start working 349 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:31,639 S1: around the way to say, well, we're going to get 350 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,189 S1: it the way a little bit lighter. And Probst is saying, well, 351 00:17:34,190 --> 00:17:36,199 S1: it weighs this and that. And the generals go, you 352 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,119 S1: know what? If the two of us could lift the 353 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,520 S1: back of this out of where we're stock, the weight's good. 354 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,109 S1: They go behind it. The two of them lift that 355 00:17:42,109 --> 00:17:44,000 S1: vehicle out of where they were stock and they go, 356 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,040 S1: you know what? Thumbs up. It's all good weights. Good. 357 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,700 S1: Another one of those exceptionally scientific ways to decide something 358 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:55,480 S1: like that story, a story about it. Make this stuff up. 359 00:17:55,490 --> 00:17:57,830 S1: Like you say, this is really one for the ages. 360 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,020 S1: We're going to take a short break, but we'll be 361 00:18:00,020 --> 00:18:00,620 S1: right back. 362 00:18:03,660 --> 00:18:07,649 S2: Welcome to Life Done better listen to the weekly episodes 363 00:18:07,650 --> 00:18:11,280 S2: where supermodel and health coach Jill Deong talks to some 364 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,980 S2: of the world's most inspiring women in health and wellness. 365 00:18:15,570 --> 00:18:19,290 S2: It's the place for all the unicorns who strive to 366 00:18:19,290 --> 00:18:23,580 S2: create a life on their own terms. Join us to explore, 367 00:18:23,580 --> 00:18:29,670 S2: discover and create a life done better together. Listen, unsubscribe 368 00:18:29,790 --> 00:18:33,270 S2: from Cutco Media media for your mind. 369 00:18:35,970 --> 00:18:38,700 S1: Welcome back to the cars that matter. So, Paul, I 370 00:18:38,700 --> 00:18:40,590 S1: did a little bit of research on my own, I 371 00:18:40,590 --> 00:18:43,020 S1: got so interested in some of these things after reading 372 00:18:43,020 --> 00:18:45,479 S1: your book. And it's amazing how you connect the dots. 373 00:18:45,510 --> 00:18:48,330 S1: We talk about Six Degrees of separation. We just recently 374 00:18:48,330 --> 00:18:50,370 S1: had a guest on our show who's the director of 375 00:18:50,369 --> 00:18:53,609 S1: the Historic Vehicle Association. And lo and behold, in the 376 00:18:53,609 --> 00:18:58,649 S1: National Historic Vehicle Register is the very first Ford Pilot model, 377 00:18:59,340 --> 00:19:02,700 S1: number one pygmy. I guess that's down in the US 378 00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:07,139 S1: Veterans Memorial Museum in Huntsville, Alabama. What a remarkable artifact 379 00:19:07,140 --> 00:19:09,450 S1: that thing is. Yeah, I think the Ford sold the 380 00:19:09,450 --> 00:19:12,180 S1: thing off in the 80s to somebody and they realized 381 00:19:12,180 --> 00:19:14,790 S1: what they had. The Willis prototype was lost to history, 382 00:19:14,790 --> 00:19:17,250 S1: as far as I know. But the Barnham prototype that 383 00:19:17,250 --> 00:19:20,820 S1: was also lost to history but the seventh Bantam ever 384 00:19:20,820 --> 00:19:24,060 S1: built was called the BRC 60. That's actually at the 385 00:19:24,060 --> 00:19:27,899 S1: Smithsonian in Butler, Pennsylvania, is just north of Pittsburgh and 386 00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:31,620 S1: they call it Gramps. So you have the two oldest jeeps. 387 00:19:31,619 --> 00:19:35,160 S1: The oldest first jeep is the Ford Pygmy. Absolutely. And 388 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,430 S1: then you have Gramps and Pittsburgh also. And so that's 389 00:19:38,430 --> 00:19:41,730 S1: like amazing that you use the absolutely correct term artifacts 390 00:19:41,730 --> 00:19:43,969 S1: that you have for that. Now, one of the things 391 00:19:43,980 --> 00:19:47,369 S1: I find interesting was I found the list. What happened 392 00:19:47,369 --> 00:19:50,159 S1: is Bantam got a contract to build 70 if their 393 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,790 S1: pilot model was accepted. Their pilot model is accepted in 394 00:19:53,790 --> 00:19:57,540 S1: October of 94 and they started building their vehicles. Gramps 395 00:19:57,540 --> 00:19:59,970 S1: number seven on the list of when it was completed, 396 00:19:59,970 --> 00:20:03,840 S1: December 7th, 1940, literally a year to the day before 397 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,450 S1: Pearl Harbor. That's amazing. These things. I mean, they look 398 00:20:06,450 --> 00:20:10,110 S1: like old, basically, Popeye spinach can they're so tinny and 399 00:20:10,109 --> 00:20:12,630 S1: primitive looking now when you look at them. And they 400 00:20:12,630 --> 00:20:15,030 S1: did the job and looking at the little pygmy, the 401 00:20:15,030 --> 00:20:17,280 S1: Ford pygmy, that's the one that has the kind of 402 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,280 S1: iconic grill that we see even on Jeeps today. It 403 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,430 S1: was sort of those vertical slats with the little headlights 404 00:20:23,430 --> 00:20:26,580 S1: poking out from either side. Talk about an industrial design 405 00:20:26,580 --> 00:20:29,670 S1: that's had some longevity. The Barnum and the Willis, they 406 00:20:29,670 --> 00:20:33,060 S1: used a rounded hood early on Barnham because they base 407 00:20:33,060 --> 00:20:36,090 S1: their design a little bit on what was called the 408 00:20:36,090 --> 00:20:39,780 S1: Barnham Roadster. And then Ford came up with the flat hood, 409 00:20:39,780 --> 00:20:42,149 S1: as you mentioned, with the slats and the army really 410 00:20:42,150 --> 00:20:44,460 S1: like that. So moving forward. And that was one of 411 00:20:44,460 --> 00:20:47,340 S1: the things you had all three of the Jeeps document 412 00:20:47,369 --> 00:20:49,710 S1: in the book. They kind of were very similar because 413 00:20:49,710 --> 00:20:52,050 S1: they were built to the same specs, which because I 414 00:20:52,050 --> 00:20:54,629 S1: like to geek out on this stuff, is four seventy five. 415 00:20:54,630 --> 00:20:57,330 S1: We actually have that speck in the book and concept drawings, 416 00:20:57,330 --> 00:21:00,239 S1: zero eight three seven zero Dash Z, which is in 417 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,310 S1: the book, and I got to hold that in my hand. 418 00:21:02,340 --> 00:21:04,770 S1: So they built them to those specs. So there was 419 00:21:04,770 --> 00:21:07,800 S1: a lot of similarities, but there also were differences. And 420 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,010 S1: then after the first three were in the vehicle evolved 421 00:21:11,010 --> 00:21:14,580 S1: over nineteen forty one to eventually the will assembly and 422 00:21:14,580 --> 00:21:17,429 S1: the Army, to their credit, took the very best of 423 00:21:17,430 --> 00:21:20,220 S1: all three, so on and so forth as the vehicle 424 00:21:20,220 --> 00:21:23,250 S1: evolved and the testing went on and feedback was given 425 00:21:23,250 --> 00:21:26,280 S1: from all the different using arms. But Bantam they got 426 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,400 S1: it so right on the first time though their pilot 427 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,939 S1: was universally loved from the beginning, again, a testament, the 428 00:21:32,940 --> 00:21:35,460 S1: talent of people have been on the four individuals, but 429 00:21:35,460 --> 00:21:39,480 S1: also Willis's and Ford. If I can mention one other thing, Willis, 430 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,389 S1: to their credit, Del Maru's, their vice president in charge 431 00:21:42,390 --> 00:21:44,820 S1: of engineering. They had an engine called the Go Devil. 432 00:21:44,850 --> 00:21:46,920 S1: That's right. They had a great engine in that that 433 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,020 S1: was the heart of the machine. So they said right 434 00:21:49,020 --> 00:21:51,300 S1: in his testimony in the court case, I mentioned that 435 00:21:51,300 --> 00:21:53,580 S1: I knew you could never have enough power in a 436 00:21:53,580 --> 00:21:57,330 S1: military vehicle. The problem was that engine was much heavier 437 00:21:57,330 --> 00:21:59,580 S1: than the engines that bannermen Ford were using because they 438 00:21:59,580 --> 00:22:02,490 S1: were trying to at least ostensibly meet the weight requirement. 439 00:22:02,609 --> 00:22:05,580 S1: I use that word loosely, but they got it done. 440 00:22:05,580 --> 00:22:07,830 S1: And that was the big difference with the Willis. They 441 00:22:07,830 --> 00:22:11,460 S1: had a sixty horsepower engine and versus a forty horsepower 442 00:22:11,460 --> 00:22:15,060 S1: engine for Barnum and Ford. And when the wilesmith, which 443 00:22:15,060 --> 00:22:18,030 S1: was their second generation, came out, they got the weight 444 00:22:18,030 --> 00:22:19,860 S1: at a good place. They had that engine in it. 445 00:22:19,859 --> 00:22:22,169 S1: They had a really good competitor. But I found in 446 00:22:22,170 --> 00:22:25,859 S1: the archives Del Maru's talking about how they got the 447 00:22:25,859 --> 00:22:30,449 S1: go devel engine improved and made better for putting in 448 00:22:30,450 --> 00:22:33,570 S1: their jeeps. And that engine was used in every Willa's 449 00:22:33,570 --> 00:22:36,390 S1: jeep from the quad to the fifteen hundred EMS to 450 00:22:36,390 --> 00:22:39,720 S1: the three hundred and thirty thousand and these that were built. 451 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:41,639 S1: So I just I like to say geek out on it, 452 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,270 S1: but that is great information. The guy that fine tuned 453 00:22:45,270 --> 00:22:48,389 S1: the engine that won the war right in our book, 454 00:22:48,390 --> 00:22:52,649 S1: the big question is what eventually got made and who 455 00:22:52,650 --> 00:22:56,160 S1: made it spot on. Robert, great question. So what happened 456 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,280 S1: was by the spring of nineteen forty one, you had 457 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,940 S1: Baynham stirred iteration of their vehicle called the Bercy Forty. 458 00:23:02,940 --> 00:23:05,790 S1: You had the Willis Wilesmith and the Ford was called 459 00:23:05,790 --> 00:23:08,550 S1: the general purpose. The they did a lot of testing 460 00:23:08,550 --> 00:23:11,010 S1: in early spring of forty one into the summer. In 461 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,880 S1: the summer of nineteen forty one, the army decided we're 462 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,030 S1: going to go out winner take all sole source contract. 463 00:23:18,030 --> 00:23:23,190 S1: Sixteen thousand jeeps, all three bid. Willis had the best entry, 464 00:23:23,190 --> 00:23:26,610 S1: lowest price and Willis won the contract. There's some stories 465 00:23:26,609 --> 00:23:28,560 S1: behind that. What would I like to say to people 466 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,619 S1: is as I looked through the documents and read the 467 00:23:31,619 --> 00:23:35,260 S1: raw primary material in the summer of nineteen. Four to 468 00:23:35,260 --> 00:23:38,800 S1: the Army's like, you know what, pool gets 70 of these, 469 00:23:38,859 --> 00:23:41,980 S1: let's go for 70. Wow, that's a lot. And then 470 00:23:41,980 --> 00:23:45,160 S1: the next version, they give fifteen hundred contracts to all 471 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,730 S1: the forty five hundred within a series of months from 472 00:23:48,730 --> 00:23:52,270 S1: winter of 1940 to July of nineteen forty one, you 473 00:23:52,270 --> 00:23:55,900 S1: just see the army at dawning on them the magnitude 474 00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:57,820 S1: of the conflict they were going to get into. I 475 00:23:57,820 --> 00:24:01,389 S1: think it was June 20th or twenty first nineteen forty 476 00:24:01,390 --> 00:24:05,230 S1: one Operation Barbarossa. So about a month later they evolved 477 00:24:05,230 --> 00:24:09,880 S1: from seventy a year later to sixteen thousand, eventually would 478 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,900 S1: build 600000 plus jeeps for the war. So that's another 479 00:24:13,900 --> 00:24:16,480 S1: amazing thing you see in the story. The change in 480 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,510 S1: thinking that they really didn't understand in nineteen four to 481 00:24:19,510 --> 00:24:21,929 S1: the magnitude of what was coming. And that's not a criticism, 482 00:24:21,940 --> 00:24:23,580 S1: it's just a fact. I read in your book though 483 00:24:23,580 --> 00:24:25,119 S1: it sounds like Bantam got a little bit of a 484 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,130 S1: consolation prize. Fantome was able to build trailers for the war. 485 00:24:29,170 --> 00:24:32,889 S1: What happened was Willis won the contract. Bannon was basically 486 00:24:32,890 --> 00:24:34,960 S1: frozen out. And this is another one of the stories 487 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,870 S1: I love by October, November of nineteen forty one. This 488 00:24:37,869 --> 00:24:39,760 S1: is not document in the book, but it's talked about 489 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,100 S1: a little bit in the epilogue. The Army realizes we're 490 00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:44,770 S1: going to need even more of these than Willis can build. 491 00:24:44,770 --> 00:24:47,770 S1: And also they were worried about sabotage and other things 492 00:24:47,770 --> 00:24:50,890 S1: and bombings, which never happened. But there was actually sabotage 493 00:24:50,890 --> 00:24:53,830 S1: in World War One at a New Jersey manufacturing plant. 494 00:24:53,830 --> 00:24:56,260 S1: Speaking of your esoteric history, Robert, so that was still 495 00:24:56,260 --> 00:24:57,850 S1: in their mind. So they said we're going to need 496 00:24:57,850 --> 00:25:00,550 S1: a second supplier of this. So they go to Willis 497 00:25:00,550 --> 00:25:03,430 S1: and say, you know what, Willis? We think Ford should 498 00:25:03,430 --> 00:25:05,979 S1: build these and they should build your model because we 499 00:25:05,980 --> 00:25:08,560 S1: want to stay standard under license. How what do you 500 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,080 S1: think of that? And shockingly, Willis said, you know, that 501 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,290 S1: sounds like a good idea to us. Right? It's like 502 00:25:14,290 --> 00:25:16,389 S1: a Godfather offer. You know, we're going to make an 503 00:25:16,390 --> 00:25:19,900 S1: offer you can't refuse. So that's how Ford was able 504 00:25:19,900 --> 00:25:22,420 S1: to get in on the building for the war. And 505 00:25:22,420 --> 00:25:27,400 S1: Ford renamed their general purpose, W. General-Purpose Willis. And they built, like, 506 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,260 S1: I think it was two hundred seventy seven thousand. But 507 00:25:29,260 --> 00:25:31,840 S1: I just love that story. That is really amazing. Is 508 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,350 S1: that Ford Caldas, the general purpose, the Jeep where the 509 00:25:35,350 --> 00:25:38,050 S1: name Jeep come from, I don't think anybody can ever 510 00:25:38,050 --> 00:25:42,150 S1: really know. There's theories. It was Yujin, the Jeep, there's theories. 511 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,919 S1: It was from Jeep, from general purpose. But what I 512 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:49,210 S1: found out later on was in the interwar years, the 513 00:25:49,210 --> 00:25:51,970 S1: people would call a lot of different vehicles that would 514 00:25:51,970 --> 00:25:56,140 S1: come in to the depot, jeeps, new vehicles, experimental vehicles 515 00:25:56,140 --> 00:25:58,300 S1: for I don't know why, for whatever reason. My best 516 00:25:58,300 --> 00:26:00,670 S1: theory is we documented this from the court case. They 517 00:26:00,670 --> 00:26:03,010 S1: spent a lot of time and this was during the 518 00:26:03,010 --> 00:26:05,770 S1: war just a few years after everything happened, trying to 519 00:26:05,770 --> 00:26:08,320 S1: find out where the Jeep name came from. And all 520 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,770 S1: they could conclude was we don't really know because there's 521 00:26:11,770 --> 00:26:15,400 S1: conflicts in the stories, but that they probably started calling 522 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,490 S1: these things cheap. Originally, they were calling them the Barnum, 523 00:26:18,490 --> 00:26:21,040 S1: the Willis, the Ford. They were known as a quarter ton, 524 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,489 S1: four by four truck. So they probably start calling them 525 00:26:24,490 --> 00:26:27,669 S1: Jeeps in the fall and winter of 1940 and then 526 00:26:27,670 --> 00:26:30,550 S1: in the nineteen forty one and the name just stuck 527 00:26:30,550 --> 00:26:32,560 S1: to the quarter tons as they call them, even though 528 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,389 S1: they never really weighed a quarter ton. That's how they 529 00:26:34,390 --> 00:26:37,300 S1: became known as Jeep. That's our best guess. If they 530 00:26:37,300 --> 00:26:40,600 S1: couldn't figure out with all these people they deposed for 531 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,360 S1: the court case exactly where it came from, I could 532 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,369 S1: live with that. But that's the best that we have 533 00:26:45,369 --> 00:26:47,380 S1: at this point. It's sort of like the argument about 534 00:26:47,410 --> 00:26:50,040 S1: where did Uncle Sam come from? Where'd that name come from? 535 00:26:50,050 --> 00:26:51,909 S1: Where do they call the old guy with the top 536 00:26:51,910 --> 00:26:53,980 S1: hat and the beard? Uncle Sam? These are one of 537 00:26:53,980 --> 00:26:56,530 S1: the great mysteries. Paul, we have to take a quick break, 538 00:26:56,530 --> 00:26:57,970 S1: but we'll be back in just a moment, 539 00:27:00,609 --> 00:27:04,480 S3: a moment of your time. A new podcast from Kerkow Media, 540 00:27:05,170 --> 00:27:08,460 S3: currently twenty one years old. And today, like magic, we 541 00:27:08,490 --> 00:27:11,260 S3: defended from her fingertips down to the plan to take 542 00:27:11,260 --> 00:27:13,840 S1: care of yourself because the world needs you and 543 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,030 S3: your every do gooder that asked about me was ready 544 00:27:16,030 --> 00:27:18,550 S3: to spit on my dream. Fingers who are facing you 545 00:27:18,550 --> 00:27:20,979 S3: can feel like your purpose in your worth is 546 00:27:21,100 --> 00:27:23,830 S1: really being going to stop me from playing the piano. 547 00:27:23,830 --> 00:27:26,650 S3: She buys walkie talkies, wonders to whom she should give 548 00:27:26,650 --> 00:27:27,310 S3: the second half. 549 00:27:27,369 --> 00:27:30,250 S1: Don't love humans. We never did. We never will. We 550 00:27:30,250 --> 00:27:32,950 S1: just find beauty of rock climbing is that you can 551 00:27:32,950 --> 00:27:35,000 S1: only focus on what's right and right. 552 00:27:35,380 --> 00:27:39,399 S3: And so our American life begins. We may need to 553 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:44,530 S3: stay apart, but let's create together available on our podcast platforms. 554 00:27:44,710 --> 00:27:47,889 S3: Submit your piece by Kerkow Dotcom, slash a moment of 555 00:27:47,890 --> 00:27:48,340 S3: your time. 556 00:27:52,060 --> 00:27:54,820 S1: We're back with Paul Bruno. Your book touches on this 557 00:27:54,820 --> 00:27:58,090 S1: very critical point in the genesis of this vehicle, but 558 00:27:58,090 --> 00:28:01,020 S1: can you help our listeners understand what happened after the war? 559 00:28:01,030 --> 00:28:03,100 S1: Where did the Jeep go from there? And how did 560 00:28:03,100 --> 00:28:06,010 S1: it eventually become a jeep with the Jeep name on 561 00:28:06,010 --> 00:28:08,080 S1: the front? So what happened at the end of the war? 562 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,210 S1: Ford said, you know what? We don't want to build 563 00:28:10,210 --> 00:28:13,119 S1: any more jeeps. So they just stopped. Willis wanted to 564 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,940 S1: carry on the Jeep and they did. And they tried 565 00:28:15,940 --> 00:28:19,840 S1: to sell Jeeps after the war with varying success. And 566 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:21,550 S1: what's happened to the Jeep brand and this is in 567 00:28:21,550 --> 00:28:24,100 S1: the epilogue of the book, it seems like every 10 568 00:28:24,100 --> 00:28:26,500 S1: years has been bought by a new company around the 569 00:28:26,500 --> 00:28:30,450 S1: mid 50s. Kaiser bought out Willis in the early 60s. 570 00:28:30,460 --> 00:28:34,050 S1: They changed the name from Willis Jeep, the Kaiser Jeep. 571 00:28:34,060 --> 00:28:35,859 S1: So the Willis name went out, I think it was 572 00:28:35,859 --> 00:28:40,150 S1: around 1970, American Motors Corp., famous as the two of 573 00:28:40,150 --> 00:28:42,400 S1: us older people would know for the Pasir put a 574 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,280 S1: little more glass on the Pacer. Oh, and by the way, 575 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,380 S1: we got a gremlin out of the deal, too. So 576 00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:49,210 S1: there was a whole lot of crap there. I mean, 577 00:28:49,290 --> 00:28:52,270 S1: it's like American Motors on the Jeep. Are you kidding me? 578 00:28:52,300 --> 00:28:55,870 S1: So then Chrysler decided to buy the Jeep brand from 579 00:28:55,870 --> 00:28:58,719 S1: American Motors when they ran into trouble in the late 80s. 580 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,240 S1: I think, boy is the smartest thing that company ever 581 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,580 S1: did because it's the only thing keeping them afloat today. 582 00:29:03,610 --> 00:29:07,510 S1: Exactly 10 years later, Daimler buys Chrysler two thousand seven 583 00:29:07,510 --> 00:29:11,590 S1: a Chrysler. Daimler has some issues. They turn into FCA 584 00:29:11,590 --> 00:29:15,270 S1: and then Mussad scheduled 10 years later, FCA merges with Peugeot. 585 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,469 S1: The key to me for the story, though, is you 586 00:29:17,470 --> 00:29:19,390 S1: look at the first three Jeeps on the cover of 587 00:29:19,390 --> 00:29:22,990 S1: the book and in my opinion, the DNA of all 588 00:29:22,990 --> 00:29:25,720 S1: the Jeeps ever built. What I even see one on 589 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,600 S1: the road today go back to those first three in 590 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,600 S1: those hands on individuals that ban them at will, as 591 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:36,520 S1: at Ford that put that ruggedness, put that exceptionalism, put 592 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,930 S1: that versatility into the Jeep DNA. And that's what's carried 593 00:29:40,930 --> 00:29:43,810 S1: down through all the corporate changes, all the other changes. 594 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,460 S1: They were really the first some people say SUV. It 595 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,360 S1: was four wheel drive, which was very revolutionary at the time. 596 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,190 S1: That's right. There's a lot of stuff in the book, 597 00:29:51,190 --> 00:29:54,580 S1: literary detail of how they developed the axles from a 598 00:29:54,580 --> 00:29:58,750 S1: company called Spizer Manufacturing, which was coincidentally in Toledo along 599 00:29:58,750 --> 00:30:01,060 S1: with Willis, if that became what we now know is 600 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,630 S1: the rear end. So that's to me is the real 601 00:30:04,660 --> 00:30:08,770 S1: legacy is how well these were built that 80 years later, 602 00:30:08,770 --> 00:30:11,290 S1: you still see them on the road, still being built new. 603 00:30:11,290 --> 00:30:15,070 S1: But more importantly, the vehicle lasted 40 years and service 604 00:30:15,070 --> 00:30:18,460 S1: almost 50 years to the late 80s. And military equipment 605 00:30:18,460 --> 00:30:22,750 S1: goes obsolete very quickly. Have a fifty year service life. 606 00:30:22,750 --> 00:30:25,660 S1: That Jeep was so well built and did what it 607 00:30:25,660 --> 00:30:28,540 S1: was supposed to do so well, which you mentioned earlier, 608 00:30:28,540 --> 00:30:31,720 S1: is a real testament to all the people and early history. 609 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,270 S1: And it's a real privilege to me, very humbling to 610 00:30:34,270 --> 00:30:36,820 S1: tell their story. I wanted to do a little research 611 00:30:36,820 --> 00:30:39,850 S1: and looked up something that the greatest journalist, the war 612 00:30:39,850 --> 00:30:42,970 S1: correspondent Ernie Pyle, who was actually killed in action. But 613 00:30:42,970 --> 00:30:46,210 S1: he was the greatest American war correspondent by far. He 614 00:30:46,210 --> 00:30:49,180 S1: wrote at the time, Good Lord, I don't think we 615 00:30:49,180 --> 00:30:52,690 S1: could continue the war without the Jeep. It does everything. 616 00:30:52,690 --> 00:30:55,030 S1: And I have to give credit. A friend of mine, Steve, 617 00:30:55,030 --> 00:30:58,630 S1: he found this book, D-Day, through the German Eyes and 618 00:30:58,630 --> 00:31:01,210 S1: in the book. And we put this as the ending 619 00:31:01,210 --> 00:31:04,660 S1: to our book, The Original Jeeps. This soldier said, when 620 00:31:04,660 --> 00:31:09,070 S1: we saw the allies come on shore, completely mechanized. And 621 00:31:09,070 --> 00:31:12,280 S1: that was very much due to the Jeep. And we, 622 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:17,500 S1: the vaunted German Vermaak, was still using horses and had veterinarians. 623 00:31:17,500 --> 00:31:20,740 S1: We knew we were facing a mighty opponent. And that's 624 00:31:20,830 --> 00:31:24,250 S1: just another one of those testaments to what the Jeep 625 00:31:24,250 --> 00:31:27,310 S1: meant to warfare in World War Two in modern warfare, 626 00:31:27,310 --> 00:31:29,650 S1: that we ended the book on that. And you probably 627 00:31:29,650 --> 00:31:32,050 S1: can't make a better movie either. I'm telling you, man, 628 00:31:32,050 --> 00:31:34,209 S1: you've got to get this thing made because it is 629 00:31:34,210 --> 00:31:37,930 S1: a fascinating story. Just the way I'm wired, I read 630 00:31:37,930 --> 00:31:41,440 S1: the documents and I can feel the people in them. 631 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,450 S1: So when I found in the archives, when I found 632 00:31:43,450 --> 00:31:46,150 S1: the court case and they had deposed all these people, 633 00:31:46,150 --> 00:31:49,600 S1: I realized that you had the people just a few 634 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,530 S1: years after all the events telling exactly what happened. Now, 635 00:31:53,530 --> 00:31:56,200 S1: as an historian, oral history, which just is what would 636 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,620 S1: be usually you have you never get that exactly again. 637 00:31:59,620 --> 00:32:02,410 S1: As a historian with oral history, you have two problems. One, 638 00:32:02,410 --> 00:32:04,840 S1: it could be done long after the event. So people's 639 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,320 S1: memories are not as good. And then, shockingly, this never happens, 640 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,920 S1: except when it does, people might embellish their role and 641 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,350 S1: what they do and so on and so forth. But 642 00:32:14,380 --> 00:32:16,540 S1: they were in a court case, so they were being 643 00:32:16,540 --> 00:32:19,360 S1: deposed under oath. So they had to tell the truth 644 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,450 S1: of what happened only a few years afterwards. This is 645 00:32:22,450 --> 00:32:25,630 S1: exceptionally rare. So what I realized was my job is 646 00:32:25,630 --> 00:32:27,760 S1: to allow the people that did it to tell their 647 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,240 S1: story and just tie the pieces together. The narrative now 648 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,810 S1: in the court case, and it's like 4000 pages of documents. 649 00:32:34,810 --> 00:32:36,940 S1: So I read it all. It came alive for me 650 00:32:36,940 --> 00:32:39,580 S1: while reading what these people did, but it wasn't an order. 651 00:32:39,580 --> 00:32:41,650 S1: So what we did with the books is we were 652 00:32:41,650 --> 00:32:44,440 S1: able to take all the pieces almost like a puzzle 653 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,530 S1: and put it in order, allowing the people who did 654 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,530 S1: the work, who lived the story to tell their story. 655 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,920 S1: The early history, and that was an exceptionally humbling privilege 656 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:55,780 S1: to be able to do that. Let's give a little 657 00:32:55,780 --> 00:32:57,850 S1: bit of a fanfare to the two books that are 658 00:32:57,850 --> 00:33:00,690 S1: available and tell us where our listeners can obtain those 659 00:33:00,700 --> 00:33:02,950 S1: in the first place. Have people go to, as we 660 00:33:02,950 --> 00:33:05,680 S1: have a Facebook page called The Original Jeeps? And I 661 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,070 S1: found it fascinating that you mentioned that your dad served 662 00:33:09,070 --> 00:33:11,080 S1: in World War Two. One of the things we're doing 663 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,020 S1: out there at the original page, which is an homage 664 00:33:14,020 --> 00:33:16,630 S1: to early history, but I had a couple uncles that 665 00:33:16,630 --> 00:33:20,530 S1: served in the war and my cousin Nick and my 666 00:33:20,530 --> 00:33:24,430 S1: cousin Gene got very close to were the children of Myanmar. 667 00:33:24,430 --> 00:33:27,370 S1: Jamal Kalinich. My Uncle Nick served be twenty four out 668 00:33:27,370 --> 00:33:30,610 S1: of Italy and my cousin shared some of the stories 669 00:33:30,610 --> 00:33:33,220 S1: that his dad told them. And we're sharing those family 670 00:33:33,220 --> 00:33:36,700 S1: stories out on our Facebook page. So we're really trying 671 00:33:36,700 --> 00:33:38,740 S1: to encourage people like you. If you ever went out 672 00:33:38,740 --> 00:33:41,530 S1: to our Facebook page Original Geeves and wanted to post 673 00:33:41,530 --> 00:33:44,290 S1: a little bit about your dad's service, that little golf 674 00:33:44,290 --> 00:33:47,380 S1: story sounded fascinating. They can do that at the original 675 00:33:47,730 --> 00:33:51,640 S1: Facebook page. My aunt served in the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps. 676 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,160 S1: So we've got a couple of wackos out there, too. 677 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,830 S1: So that will give people, including yourself, a little bit 678 00:33:56,830 --> 00:33:59,610 S1: of template that you can go by to post your stories. 679 00:33:59,650 --> 00:34:04,330 S1: The book is available in paperback only at Amazon.com. However, 680 00:34:04,330 --> 00:34:07,090 S1: for your listeners and anyone to listen to any podcast 681 00:34:07,090 --> 00:34:10,089 S1: that I've done for the same price as Amazon. Twenty 682 00:34:10,090 --> 00:34:13,930 S1: dollars plus shipping, you can get an autographed copy signed 683 00:34:13,930 --> 00:34:16,480 S1: by me, which, you know, in my humble opinion, what 684 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,759 S1: could be better than that? Nothing is better than a 685 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:23,650 S1: dedication by the author, right. They can go to despatcher magazine, 686 00:34:23,650 --> 00:34:29,529 S1: dotcom books, despatcher magazine, dotcom books, order there. I get 687 00:34:29,530 --> 00:34:31,989 S1: the information, I sign it and send it to the 688 00:34:31,989 --> 00:34:34,660 S1: people and it's really, really good. So same price as 689 00:34:34,660 --> 00:34:38,200 S1: Amazon plus shipping. And then lastly, we have a website, 690 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:43,000 S1: original Jeeps, Dotcom, with loads of early history things people 691 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,219 S1: can find out there a little bit more and get 692 00:34:45,219 --> 00:34:47,560 S1: a primer of what we've talked about here today at 693 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,799 S1: original Jeeps dot com. Paul, we're having this conversation over 694 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,140 S1: Zoom and of course, our listeners are going to be 695 00:34:53,140 --> 00:34:55,930 S1: enjoying the audio tracks. But I see in your background, 696 00:34:55,930 --> 00:34:58,990 S1: you've got a very interesting image. Can you tell us 697 00:34:58,989 --> 00:35:01,350 S1: what that is? Well, I appreciate you asking about that. 698 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,120 S1: That is a photograph that I downloaded from the American 699 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,120 S1: Battlefield Trust, which I'm on their mailing lists and support 700 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,840 S1: what they do. The image you're seeing is actually from a.. 701 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,870 S1: To Maryland. It's called Burnside's Bridge from the Battle of 702 00:35:13,870 --> 00:35:17,980 S1: Antietam on September 17th, 1862. And I've actually visited there. 703 00:35:17,980 --> 00:35:19,540 S1: I used to live on the East Coast. I was 704 00:35:19,540 --> 00:35:22,180 S1: born and raised in Albany, New York, a place called Colonie, 705 00:35:22,180 --> 00:35:25,840 S1: literally 20 miles south of one of the ten great 706 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:30,040 S1: battles in all of history, the Battle of Saratoga and 1777. 707 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,440 S1: And I used to visit those battlefields and I have 708 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,530 S1: visited a lot of battlefields and I love them. The 709 00:35:35,530 --> 00:35:39,669 S1: nature is wonderful. The history is overwhelming. When you visit them, 710 00:35:39,670 --> 00:35:42,100 S1: it just permeates you. You just feel it. It's a 711 00:35:42,100 --> 00:35:45,759 S1: whole different feeling. Exactly. So the American Battlefield Trust originally 712 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,120 S1: was dedicated to preserving civil war history. Then they expanded 713 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,480 S1: to Revolutionary War in the War of 1812. And so 714 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,670 S1: when I came up with a Zoome background that seemed 715 00:35:54,670 --> 00:35:57,339 S1: to be given my interest of military history that I 716 00:35:57,340 --> 00:36:00,940 S1: visited many of these battlefields seemed like an appropriate some 717 00:36:00,940 --> 00:36:04,600 S1: background for me. That certainly ties in perfectly with your 718 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,060 S1: interest in World War Two history and the way that 719 00:36:07,060 --> 00:36:09,550 S1: came to life with the first Jeeps. Pick up a 720 00:36:09,550 --> 00:36:12,250 S1: copy of the original Jeeps commemorating the birth of an 721 00:36:12,250 --> 00:36:16,300 S1: icon nineteen forty to nineteen forty one by Paul Bruto. Paul, 722 00:36:16,300 --> 00:36:18,100 S1: thanks for joining us. It was an honor and a 723 00:36:18,100 --> 00:36:21,520 S1: privilege to be with you, Robert and I thoroughly enjoyed it. 724 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,560 S1: I don't deserve to have this much fun, but I 725 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,910 S1: appreciate you. Let me have it come back next time 726 00:36:27,910 --> 00:36:30,160 S1: as we continue to talk about the passions that drive 727 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:46,000 S1: us and the passions we drive. This episode of Cars 728 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,180 S1: That Matter was hosted by Robert Ross, produced by Chris Border, 729 00:36:49,390 --> 00:36:53,230 S1: edited by Chris Porter, theme song by Celeste Anorectic, Additional 730 00:36:53,230 --> 00:36:56,620 S1: Music and Sound by Chris Porter. Please, like subscribe and 731 00:36:56,620 --> 00:36:59,970 S1: share this podcast. I'm Robert Ross and thanks for listening. 732 00:37:02,890 --> 00:37:06,469 S3: Kurt Media. Media, for your mind.