1 00:00:01,139 --> 00:00:01,170 Speaker 1: I 2 00:00:01,900 --> 00:00:08,450 Speaker 1: think it's time for this toxic binary zero sum madness stuff. 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,780 Speaker 1: We're not an imperial power where Revolutionary Power Way are 4 00:00:11,780 --> 00:00:14,770 Speaker 1: no longer in a world where you can plot out moves, 5 00:00:14,870 --> 00:00:18,329 Speaker 1: statesman to statesman, like a chessboard. You don't know anything 6 00:00:18,329 --> 00:00:20,549 Speaker 1: about my background where it came from. It doesn't matter 7 00:00:20,550 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: to you because fundamentally, on the mean white man, we 8 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: can't do this to the next generation because America will 9 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:28,580 Speaker 1: cease to exist. 10 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:34,419 Speaker 1: Welcome to the monk debate podcast. I'm your moderator, Roger Griffis. 11 00:00:34,970 --> 00:00:37,980 Speaker 1: Our mission every episode is to provide you with civil 12 00:00:38,060 --> 00:00:41,250 Speaker 1: and substandard debate on the big issues of the day, 13 00:00:41,740 --> 00:00:46,350 Speaker 1: free of spin, focused on facts and animated by smart conversation. 14 00:00:46,930 --> 00:00:48,970 Speaker 1: By the end of each debate, our hope is that 15 00:00:48,979 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: you'll be armed with enough information to make up your 16 00:00:51,810 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: own mind about any given issue on this episode. Way 17 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: debate the motion, be it resolved. Anti Zionism is anti Semitism. 18 00:01:01,410 --> 00:01:06,110 Speaker 1: When people sneakily make claims that they are for the 19 00:01:06,110 --> 00:01:10,660 Speaker 1: Jews but against Israel. That's something that we can't just 20 00:01:10,690 --> 00:01:15,270 Speaker 1: pretend is theoretically sound because we know the consequences that 21 00:01:15,270 --> 00:01:16,910 Speaker 1: too often follow from it. 22 00:01:17,270 --> 00:01:21,169 Speaker 2: Anti Semitism is something very frightening and very disturbing and 23 00:01:21,170 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 2: is coming from both the left and the right. But 24 00:01:24,130 --> 00:01:28,470 Speaker 2: it is not fair to make Palestinians pay the price 25 00:01:28,470 --> 00:01:29,050 Speaker 2: for that. 26 00:01:29,290 --> 00:01:33,259 Speaker 1: It's a debate brewing on college campuses in our domestic politics, 27 00:01:33,270 --> 00:01:36,060 Speaker 1: and it's shaping opinion about the state of Israel on 28 00:01:36,060 --> 00:01:38,610 Speaker 1: the world stage. At the heart of the debate is 29 00:01:38,610 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: the issue of where and when. In fact, if ever 30 00:01:41,780 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: it's okay to question the legitimacy of the Jewish state 31 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,060 Speaker 1: in present day Israel. We're gonna walk this fine line 32 00:01:49,060 --> 00:01:52,750 Speaker 1: with two big thinkers that holds sharply different points of view, 33 00:01:53,340 --> 00:01:57,210 Speaker 1: arguing for the motion, be it resolved. Anti Zionism is 34 00:01:57,210 --> 00:02:01,790 Speaker 1: anti Semitism is New York Times columnist Bret Stephens. His 35 00:02:01,790 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: opponent is Peter Beinhart, contributing editor at the Atlantic and 36 00:02:06,610 --> 00:02:11,230 Speaker 1: author of The Crisis of Zionism. Bret Stephens, Peter Beinhart. 37 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,930 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Monk debate podcast. Thank you. Good to 38 00:02:13,930 --> 00:02:17,450 Speaker 1: be here, Brett. Since you're speaking in favor of today's resolution, 39 00:02:17,460 --> 00:02:21,299 Speaker 1: be it resolved. Anti Zionism is anti Semitism. Let's hear 40 00:02:21,300 --> 00:02:24,050 Speaker 1: your opening statement first start for us. 41 00:02:24,950 --> 00:02:27,250 Speaker 1: I think there's a common misconception 42 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:29,750 Speaker 1: that anti Zionism 43 00:02:30,370 --> 00:02:35,150 Speaker 1: amounts to nothing more than a very strong criticism of Israel, 44 00:02:35,940 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: and I'd like to begin by dispelling that notion. 45 00:02:41,310 --> 00:02:45,750 Speaker 1: People who don't like the Netanyahu government that includes me, 46 00:02:46,310 --> 00:02:49,650 Speaker 1: um, are not anti Zionists. That's part of the normal 47 00:02:49,650 --> 00:02:50,700 Speaker 1: democratic debate. 48 00:02:51,410 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: People who oppose Israel's settlement policies or its policies 49 00:02:57,139 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: visa VI Gaza or anywhere else aren't necessarily anti Zionists. 50 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,740 Speaker 1: There are many patriotic Israelis who feel just the same way. 51 00:03:07,630 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: Anti Zionism is unique because it's view is that the 52 00:03:11,850 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: Zionist enterprise, that is to say, the state of Israel 53 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:16,350 Speaker 1: is misconceived. 54 00:03:16,990 --> 00:03:17,810 Speaker 1: It's wrong. 55 00:03:18,389 --> 00:03:21,450 Speaker 1: And at the end of the day, it isn't simply 56 00:03:21,450 --> 00:03:23,700 Speaker 1: Israeli policy that has to change. 57 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,389 Speaker 1: But it is Israel itself 58 00:03:26,980 --> 00:03:27,850 Speaker 1: that has to go 59 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,850 Speaker 1: now. This is unique when you think about other countries 60 00:03:31,850 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: around the world. Many of us are critics of China's 61 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:41,020 Speaker 1: occupation of Tibet, Russia's occupation of parts of Ukraine. Some 62 00:03:41,020 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: people are aware that Turkey is occupying northern Cyprus in 63 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,150 Speaker 1: violation of international law and putting down settlements there, too. 64 00:03:49,820 --> 00:03:55,060 Speaker 1: But none of those critiques extend to calls that are 65 00:03:55,060 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: now increasingly pervasive around the world, not only for Russia, 66 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,550 Speaker 1: China or Turkey toe change their policies, but for the 67 00:04:02,550 --> 00:04:07,390 Speaker 1: states themselves to disappear, to be eliminated. So even if 68 00:04:07,390 --> 00:04:10,470 Speaker 1: you accept the premise for one second. Roger that. Anti 69 00:04:10,470 --> 00:04:14,140 Speaker 1: Zionism is not anti Semitism. You have to come to 70 00:04:14,140 --> 00:04:16,350 Speaker 1: grips with the 71 00:04:16,940 --> 00:04:21,250 Speaker 1: elimination ist ideology that is at the heart of anti Zionism. 72 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,250 Speaker 1: But anti Zionism is anti Semitism. 73 00:04:25,830 --> 00:04:28,339 Speaker 1: First of all, it's anti Semitism for a reason. I 74 00:04:28,339 --> 00:04:33,549 Speaker 1: just suggested it is. It singles out the Jewish state 75 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:39,710 Speaker 1: for opprobrium and with a prescription that anti Zionists apply 76 00:04:39,710 --> 00:04:43,990 Speaker 1: to no other state. Second point, that's very important is 77 00:04:43,990 --> 00:04:45,349 Speaker 1: that anti Zionism 78 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:50,650 Speaker 1: tens very frequently to traffic in images, 79 00:04:51,230 --> 00:04:52,110 Speaker 1: in tropes 80 00:04:52,630 --> 00:04:57,860 Speaker 1: and in libels that have a long history in an 81 00:04:57,860 --> 00:05:01,589 Speaker 1: anti Semitic tradition stretching back for thousands of years. So, 82 00:05:01,589 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: for example, when you hear that Israel is committing genocide 83 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,820 Speaker 1: in Gaza and it course manifestly is not, you are 84 00:05:09,820 --> 00:05:13,799 Speaker 1: abusing that word that is trafficking in a classic anti 85 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,580 Speaker 1: Semitic trope, suggesting that the Jewish people have a particular 86 00:05:17,580 --> 00:05:20,540 Speaker 1: kind of bloodlust. Or if you say that Israel or 87 00:05:20,540 --> 00:05:23,970 Speaker 1: Israeli leaders have hypnotized the world to get them to 88 00:05:23,970 --> 00:05:28,130 Speaker 1: do their bidding, that again goes back to an old 89 00:05:28,430 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: anti Semitic trump. And finally, anti Semitism is anti Zionism because, 90 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: like all forms of Jew hatred in history, it has 91 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:41,500 Speaker 1: adapted itself almost like a virus to the cultural and 92 00:05:41,500 --> 00:05:45,370 Speaker 1: political fashions of our day. Today, it is very difficult 93 00:05:45,370 --> 00:05:49,029 Speaker 1: for people to be anti Semites to hate Jews for 94 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:53,370 Speaker 1: racial reasons, for the obvious reason that that kind of ideology, 95 00:05:53,990 --> 00:05:57,390 Speaker 1: fortunately, went out of fashion with the destruction of the 96 00:05:57,390 --> 00:06:00,620 Speaker 1: Third Reich. It's unfashionable to hate Jews simply on a 97 00:06:00,620 --> 00:06:05,350 Speaker 1: religious basis. But it has become fashionable to hate Jews, 98 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:10,900 Speaker 1: using the excuse of their statehood, of their nationality and 99 00:06:10,900 --> 00:06:13,770 Speaker 1: of their willingness to defend their borders as the latest 100 00:06:13,770 --> 00:06:19,740 Speaker 1: pretext to single out Jewish people for opprobrium and for 101 00:06:19,740 --> 00:06:23,670 Speaker 1: hatred that is applied to almost no other people. If 102 00:06:23,670 --> 00:06:26,420 Speaker 1: no other people in the world. That is why, in 103 00:06:26,420 --> 00:06:27,130 Speaker 1: a nutshell, 104 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: anti Zionism is indistinguishable from anti Semitism. It is the 105 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,430 Speaker 1: anti Semitism of our day. Bret Stephens. Thank you for 106 00:06:34,430 --> 00:06:36,810 Speaker 1: that opening statement. Pierre Beinhart. I'm gonna turn the microphone 107 00:06:36,810 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: over to you. Let's hear your opening remarks. 108 00:06:39,270 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 2: Sure, I think. First it is useful to try to 109 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 2: define what Zionism, or at least political Zionism is. It's 110 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:47,580 Speaker 2: the idea that there should be a state. That privilege 111 00:06:47,580 --> 00:06:51,370 Speaker 2: is Jews that has a special responsibility to protect and 112 00:06:51,370 --> 00:06:53,299 Speaker 2: represent Jews. You see that in the state of Israel, 113 00:06:53,300 --> 00:06:56,659 Speaker 2: symbols which are religious and with immigration policy, which makes 114 00:06:56,660 --> 00:06:58,990 Speaker 2: it allows the diaspora Jews like myself to come to 115 00:06:58,990 --> 00:07:01,770 Speaker 2: Israel and become a citizen on stay one and makes 116 00:07:01,770 --> 00:07:04,660 Speaker 2: it virtually impossible for a Palestinian to immigrate to Israel 117 00:07:04,670 --> 00:07:07,940 Speaker 2: and become a citizen. Now I am a Zionist because 118 00:07:07,940 --> 00:07:10,500 Speaker 2: as a Jew, I believe in the importance of estate 119 00:07:10,980 --> 00:07:14,679 Speaker 2: that has a special responsibility to Jews. But I also 120 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,380 Speaker 2: think that there are many, many examples of people who 121 00:07:18,450 --> 00:07:21,690 Speaker 2: do not support that Jewish privilege in the state of 122 00:07:21,690 --> 00:07:25,660 Speaker 2: Israel who are not anti Semite. So, for instance, there 123 00:07:25,670 --> 00:07:29,220 Speaker 2: is a component of the Jewish world that opposes Zionism. 124 00:07:29,220 --> 00:07:32,870 Speaker 2: Doesn't get necessarily that much attention. But the PSAT Marcus it, um, 125 00:07:32,870 --> 00:07:34,830 Speaker 2: for instance, who are the largest Pacific group in the 126 00:07:34,830 --> 00:07:38,410 Speaker 2: world they have meetings in in football. Stadiums that are 127 00:07:38,410 --> 00:07:42,010 Speaker 2: larger than the A pack national convention are anti Zionist 128 00:07:42,010 --> 00:07:46,150 Speaker 2: because of their traditional reading of Jewish texts. Jewish Voice 129 00:07:46,150 --> 00:07:49,500 Speaker 2: for Peace on the Left as a Jewish organization that 130 00:07:49,500 --> 00:07:53,860 Speaker 2: believes that its liberal democratic values our intention with the 131 00:07:53,860 --> 00:07:57,250 Speaker 2: idea of a state that privileges Jews even inside Israel proper, 132 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,170 Speaker 2: privileges them over Palestinians. It's to that Most Jews around 133 00:08:01,170 --> 00:08:03,850 Speaker 2: the world are Zionists. But that wasn't always the case. 134 00:08:03,850 --> 00:08:07,050 Speaker 2: And there still is a robust debate about Zionism. Probably 135 00:08:07,050 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 2: if you look at younger American Jews today, you would 136 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,350 Speaker 2: find that there's an even larger number of people who 137 00:08:11,350 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 2: have significant questions about the idea of Zionism, either because 138 00:08:15,690 --> 00:08:19,590 Speaker 2: traditional re Jewish religious texts say that it's incompatible with 139 00:08:19,590 --> 00:08:23,610 Speaker 2: Jewish religious law or because it violates their liberal democratic values. 140 00:08:23,650 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 2: In either case is those people is just simply not 141 00:08:26,670 --> 00:08:27,660 Speaker 2: anti Semites. 142 00:08:28,180 --> 00:08:33,070 Speaker 2: Secondly, you have almost all Palestinians are anti Zionists again 143 00:08:33,070 --> 00:08:37,179 Speaker 2: because they don't support the idea off a state that 144 00:08:37,179 --> 00:08:41,890 Speaker 2: privileges Jews over Palestinians now some of their anti Zionism 145 00:08:41,900 --> 00:08:45,050 Speaker 2: is absolutely Semitic if you look at the Islamic kind 146 00:08:45,050 --> 00:08:48,170 Speaker 2: of domination ist ideology of Hamas. But there are many 147 00:08:48,170 --> 00:08:51,770 Speaker 2: other Palestinians who say very openly and simply that they 148 00:08:51,770 --> 00:08:54,260 Speaker 2: want Israel to not be a Jewish state, but to 149 00:08:54,260 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 2: be a state for all its citizens in which everyone 150 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:58,990 Speaker 2: lives under the same law. There were a number of 151 00:08:58,990 --> 00:09:02,660 Speaker 2: Palestinian members of the Knesset who introduced ah, what's called 152 00:09:02,660 --> 00:09:05,590 Speaker 2: a basic law in Israel last year, saying simply this. 153 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:07,950 Speaker 2: They should not be a state built on principles of 154 00:09:07,950 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 2: privilege for any group. It should be a liberal democracy 155 00:09:11,130 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 2: with equal law provided to everybody. 156 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,950 Speaker 2: Now it's true that there are many ethnically based states 157 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,900 Speaker 2: around the world. But we do not, as a general principle, 158 00:09:21,910 --> 00:09:24,930 Speaker 2: have the idea that every nation that wants its own 159 00:09:24,929 --> 00:09:28,050 Speaker 2: state should have won the Kurds. Don't the Catalans Don't 160 00:09:28,059 --> 00:09:30,870 Speaker 2: the Basques don't the Quebecers don't I don't think we 161 00:09:30,870 --> 00:09:33,340 Speaker 2: would say that people who oppose a Kurdish state are 162 00:09:33,340 --> 00:09:36,429 Speaker 2: anti Semitic, and in fact, there are states that were 163 00:09:36,429 --> 00:09:40,950 Speaker 2: built on ethnic or racial privilege that have been dismantled, right? 164 00:09:40,950 --> 00:09:43,620 Speaker 2: So I do not consider Israel on apartheid state. I 165 00:09:43,620 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 2: think the way that a partisan Africa privileged whites over 166 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,569 Speaker 2: blacks was much more extreme than the way that Israel 167 00:09:49,570 --> 00:09:53,300 Speaker 2: privileges Jews over non Jews. But when that was dismantled 168 00:09:53,340 --> 00:09:56,870 Speaker 2: and the project of national self determination for offer Connors 169 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:01,219 Speaker 2: was ended and Israel became a state for all its citizens, 170 00:10:01,300 --> 00:10:06,260 Speaker 2: that wasn't anti Afrikaner bigotry. And if you say that 171 00:10:06,270 --> 00:10:10,410 Speaker 2: all Palestinians who are anti Zionists are anti Semites, even 172 00:10:10,410 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 2: those who say that all they want is one state 173 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,780 Speaker 2: in which Jews and Palestinians live under unequal law. Then, 174 00:10:17,780 --> 00:10:22,179 Speaker 2: in fact, you are essentially delegitimizing all Palestinian politics. You're 175 00:10:22,179 --> 00:10:26,380 Speaker 2: equating Palestinian politics with bigotry, and I think that's very 176 00:10:26,380 --> 00:10:30,459 Speaker 2: destructive for our appreciation of Palestinian human dignity and, I 177 00:10:30,460 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 2: think undermines the quest for peace. 178 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,330 Speaker 1: Thank you both for those opening statements. Let me quickly 179 00:10:37,330 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: sum up here. Bret Stephens. The gist of your argument 180 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,260 Speaker 1: is that while it's become widely unacceptable to be anti 181 00:10:43,260 --> 00:10:47,970 Speaker 1: Semitic for racial or religious reasons, it has become acceptable 182 00:10:47,970 --> 00:10:52,980 Speaker 1: to criticize Jews for pursuing statehood or for defending their borders. 183 00:10:53,140 --> 00:10:56,410 Speaker 1: Which do you are essential to the very existence of 184 00:10:56,410 --> 00:10:56,949 Speaker 1: Israel 185 00:10:57,530 --> 00:11:01,630 Speaker 1: and Peter Beinhart. You're saying, quite simply, that one can 186 00:11:01,630 --> 00:11:04,070 Speaker 1: disagree with the politics of the state of Israel. You 187 00:11:04,070 --> 00:11:08,470 Speaker 1: can even be anti Zionist and still not be anti Semitic. 188 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,780 Speaker 1: Hence your against the motion, be it resolved. Anti Zionism 189 00:11:12,790 --> 00:11:17,510 Speaker 1: is anti Semitism. Now let's move on to our rebuttals breath. Steven, 190 00:11:17,510 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: I'm gonna pass the microphone back to you to respond 191 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: to a few. The key things that Peter said that 192 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,189 Speaker 1: are at the top of your mind. Well, I know 193 00:11:25,190 --> 00:11:27,980 Speaker 1: this debate is being heard. And obviously, in Canada and 194 00:11:27,990 --> 00:11:30,750 Speaker 1: in the United States and in both countries, 195 00:11:31,300 --> 00:11:36,210 Speaker 1: the idea of a state privileging a particular nation that is, 196 00:11:36,210 --> 00:11:41,410 Speaker 1: to say, a particular culture. Ethnicity, religion, language and so 197 00:11:41,410 --> 00:11:45,750 Speaker 1: on might seem a little strange to our traditions simply 198 00:11:45,750 --> 00:11:48,940 Speaker 1: because the United States was not founded as a nation state. 199 00:11:49,150 --> 00:11:52,630 Speaker 1: But you or many listeners might be surprised to learn 200 00:11:53,020 --> 00:11:56,150 Speaker 1: that around the world, all kinds of states, including states 201 00:11:56,150 --> 00:12:00,660 Speaker 1: that we consider upstanding members of the liberal Democratic order 202 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: do in fact offer certain kinds of privileges to a 203 00:12:07,210 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: given nation that are not offered to others. Let me 204 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: give you a neg. Zampa Ll Denmark, unlike the United States, 205 00:12:14,140 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: has an official language. Danish. You'll be surprised to learn 206 00:12:18,260 --> 00:12:20,820 Speaker 1: Germany for many years. I don't know if it's the 207 00:12:20,820 --> 00:12:24,140 Speaker 1: current policy, but it certainly was the policy. For decades Postwar, 208 00:12:24,140 --> 00:12:31,070 Speaker 1: Germany offered expedited citizenship to German nationals who had been 209 00:12:31,070 --> 00:12:35,340 Speaker 1: living in what became the Soviet Union for not decades. 210 00:12:35,340 --> 00:12:39,410 Speaker 1: But in fact, for centuries they offered citizenship based on 211 00:12:39,420 --> 00:12:44,179 Speaker 1: a kn ancestral claim of nationality and ethnicity. So the 212 00:12:44,179 --> 00:12:48,929 Speaker 1: idea that Zionism, that Jewish Sinus like the Danes, like 213 00:12:48,929 --> 00:12:52,570 Speaker 1: the Germans like many other nation states offer certain kind 214 00:12:52,570 --> 00:12:57,959 Speaker 1: of privileges to the dominant ethnic or religious group is 215 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: not a very strange idea. It's certainly not an outrageous idea. 216 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,670 Speaker 1: I don't hear many people calling for the elimination of Germany, 217 00:13:04,670 --> 00:13:08,860 Speaker 1: much less the elimination of Denmark. Now, a second point 218 00:13:08,860 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 1: that Peter raises. You can always find the odd exception, 219 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,820 Speaker 1: like he mentioned the Satmar Hasidim, who are not Zionists. 220 00:13:18,150 --> 00:13:22,410 Speaker 1: I'm perfectly happy to concede that there are these rare 221 00:13:22,410 --> 00:13:26,620 Speaker 1: exceptions as there are when it comes to any prejudice. 222 00:13:26,620 --> 00:13:29,439 Speaker 1: But that does not mean that we should overlook the 223 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,900 Speaker 1: fact that if you were to draw a Venn diagram 224 00:13:32,340 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: and map anti Zionism over anti Semitism, the overlap would 225 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:43,449 Speaker 1: be absolutely astonishing. So Peter is trying to point to 226 00:13:43,450 --> 00:13:48,430 Speaker 1: a handful of exceptions and say this disproves the rule. 227 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that that's it. All. The case, the 228 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,410 Speaker 1: third point and maybe into some listeners of the most 229 00:13:53,420 --> 00:13:56,099 Speaker 1: powerful point is to say well, there are a lot 230 00:13:56,100 --> 00:13:59,540 Speaker 1: of Palestinians who don't want a state of Israel who 231 00:13:59,540 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: want the destruction of the state of Israel, or at 232 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,250 Speaker 1: least one it substituted with with with a single state 233 00:14:06,540 --> 00:14:09,850 Speaker 1: now for the last 25 for however many years, 234 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:14,980 Speaker 1: well intended people and this includes myself have been working 235 00:14:14,990 --> 00:14:19,300 Speaker 1: and have been hoping for a two state solution precisely 236 00:14:19,300 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: because Zionism is so central to Jewish identity. So when 237 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,380 Speaker 1: there are Palestinians who say we want the destruction of 238 00:14:28,380 --> 00:14:31,070 Speaker 1: the state of Israel rather than the creation of an 239 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: independent Palestinian state, they are in fact participating in that 240 00:14:35,050 --> 00:14:37,570 Speaker 1: anti Semitism, and it should be no surprise, and I'm 241 00:14:37,570 --> 00:14:41,310 Speaker 1: sorry to say this, but anti Semitism not just of 242 00:14:41,310 --> 00:14:45,290 Speaker 1: the postmodern 21st century anti Zionist variety but of the 243 00:14:45,300 --> 00:14:50,580 Speaker 1: old fashioned 19 century kind is alive and well on 244 00:14:50,580 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: Palestinian television, in Palestinian mosques and in Palestinian society. That's 245 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,210 Speaker 1: a reality that a lot of supporters of Palestinian statehood 246 00:14:58,210 --> 00:15:00,570 Speaker 1: want to look away from. But if anyone is being 247 00:15:00,580 --> 00:15:04,210 Speaker 1: honest about Palestinian politics, they have to acknowledge that there 248 00:15:04,210 --> 00:15:09,610 Speaker 1: is far too much rank old fashioned anti Semitism inhabiting 249 00:15:09,620 --> 00:15:12,100 Speaker 1: of Palestinian politics, Palestinian discourse. 250 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,380 Speaker 1: Thanks, Bret Stephens, Peter Beinhart. Let's get your response to 251 00:15:15,380 --> 00:15:17,460 Speaker 1: what you've heard from breakfast. Now I want to 252 00:15:17,460 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 2: start with the idea of the Venn diagram that there's 253 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,890 Speaker 2: an almost exact over level not entirely almost exact between 254 00:15:22,890 --> 00:15:25,010 Speaker 2: the group of people who are Zionist and the group 255 00:15:25,010 --> 00:15:26,790 Speaker 2: of people who are anti Semites. I just think that's 256 00:15:26,790 --> 00:15:29,100 Speaker 2: not empirically the case. First of all, some of the 257 00:15:29,100 --> 00:15:32,790 Speaker 2: most valiantly in obviously anti Semitic leaders in the world today. 258 00:15:32,790 --> 00:15:35,580 Speaker 2: I think of someone like Viktor Orban in Hungary, for instance, 259 00:15:35,580 --> 00:15:37,430 Speaker 2: of the far right leaders in much of Europe and 260 00:15:37,430 --> 00:15:39,350 Speaker 2: to some degree, even Donald Trump, who has a much 261 00:15:39,350 --> 00:15:42,970 Speaker 2: longer history of peddling anti Semitic stereotypes than Ilhan Omar, 262 00:15:42,980 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 2: are very Zionist IQ. In fact, it's not intellectually inconsistent. 263 00:15:47,020 --> 00:15:50,550 Speaker 2: If you like the Polish leaders of the 19 thirties 264 00:15:50,540 --> 00:15:52,890 Speaker 2: who were anti Semitic. If you don't want Jews in 265 00:15:52,890 --> 00:15:55,510 Speaker 2: your country, you might be quite happy about the idea 266 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:57,530 Speaker 2: that they would have a country of their own. And 267 00:15:57,530 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 2: what we know about polling in the United States suggest 268 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,930 Speaker 2: that the Venn diagram actually may not really overlap nearly 269 00:16:02,930 --> 00:16:05,660 Speaker 2: as much as Brett says, because when the Anti Defamation 270 00:16:05,660 --> 00:16:08,300 Speaker 2: League did a study and they asked people to measure 271 00:16:08,300 --> 00:16:11,100 Speaker 2: their anti Semitism, they ask questions like to Jews have 272 00:16:11,100 --> 00:16:13,490 Speaker 2: too much power. Do they only look out for themselves? 273 00:16:13,660 --> 00:16:15,590 Speaker 2: They found that the most anti Semitic people in the 274 00:16:15,590 --> 00:16:20,130 Speaker 2: United States were older and without college degrees. And yet, 275 00:16:20,130 --> 00:16:24,270 Speaker 2: when people study Israel sentiment, hostility to Israel differences, the 276 00:16:24,270 --> 00:16:26,420 Speaker 2: Pew Research Center they find that the people who have 277 00:16:26,420 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 2: the most hostility to Israel tend to be young and 278 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 2: highly educated. So actually, the Venn diagram doesn't necessarily overlap 279 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,970 Speaker 2: nearly as much. I think his bread is suggesting it 280 00:16:36,970 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 2: is certainly true. Bread is absolutely right. There are lots 281 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 2: of countries in the world that have crosses or crescents 282 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,030 Speaker 2: on their flags and that have some form of preferential 283 00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:48,660 Speaker 2: immigration policy. Israel is at an extreme in the sense 284 00:16:48,660 --> 00:16:52,010 Speaker 2: that even though Britain has across on its flag, Britain 285 00:16:52,010 --> 00:16:54,610 Speaker 2: has had a Jewish prime minister. Where is very difficult 286 00:16:54,610 --> 00:16:57,020 Speaker 2: to imagine the state of Israel having, let's say, a 287 00:16:57,020 --> 00:16:59,780 Speaker 2: Palestinian prime minister? But I think the critical point for 288 00:16:59,790 --> 00:17:02,780 Speaker 2: our debate is that if you were a Brit who 289 00:17:02,780 --> 00:17:05,570 Speaker 2: wanted to take that cross off the flag or a 290 00:17:05,570 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 2: German to use Brett's example, who didn't want Germany to 291 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,610 Speaker 2: have on immigration policy that privileged Germans over another group, 292 00:17:12,619 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 2: you might be right. You might be wrong. You wouldn't 293 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,180 Speaker 2: be in a bigot for taking those used. This would 294 00:17:17,180 --> 00:17:20,820 Speaker 2: be on argument about ethnic versus civic nationalism, which is 295 00:17:20,820 --> 00:17:24,090 Speaker 2: an argument that takes place in all different parts of 296 00:17:24,090 --> 00:17:28,370 Speaker 2: the world. There is Palestinian anti Semitism. Bread is entirely 297 00:17:28,420 --> 00:17:31,770 Speaker 2: right about that. But when he used the word destruction 298 00:17:31,780 --> 00:17:34,530 Speaker 2: of the state of Israel, I think what he's conflating 299 00:17:34,770 --> 00:17:37,470 Speaker 2: is the notion that there are that some have, like 300 00:17:37,470 --> 00:17:41,190 Speaker 2: Islamic Jihad, for instance, of a violent war. T destroy 301 00:17:41,190 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 2: Israel and kill Jews, and another group of Palestinians who 302 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,190 Speaker 2: have supporters around the world who want to replace Zionism, 303 00:17:48,190 --> 00:17:51,340 Speaker 2: which is an ethnic nationalism with a civic nationalism that 304 00:17:51,340 --> 00:17:54,210 Speaker 2: they believe would treat all people equally. There are very 305 00:17:54,220 --> 00:17:56,869 Speaker 2: good critiques of this. I am a supporter of the 306 00:17:56,869 --> 00:17:59,350 Speaker 2: two state solution, but I just don't think it makes. 307 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 2: I think it defies logic to say that someone who 308 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 2: wants people to live equally in one state is there 309 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: for a bigot. 310 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,070 Speaker 1: You're listening to the monk debate podcast, Be it resolved. 311 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,350 Speaker 1: Anti Zionism is anti Semitism. 312 00:18:14,940 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying this debate, check out our website monk 313 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: debates dot com for dozens of debates on the big 314 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,420 Speaker 1: issues of the day, Listen to Tony Blair and Christopher 315 00:18:23,420 --> 00:18:26,290 Speaker 1: Hitchens debate whether religion is a force for good in 316 00:18:26,290 --> 00:18:29,780 Speaker 1: the world. Watch freed Zakaria, Neil Ferguson Go head to 317 00:18:29,780 --> 00:18:33,970 Speaker 1: head on the future of geopolitics, read Stephen Fry and 318 00:18:33,970 --> 00:18:39,130 Speaker 1: Jordan Peterson's debate on political correctness. All these debates Frito, Listen, 319 00:18:39,130 --> 00:18:42,090 Speaker 1: watch and read at monk debates dot com. 320 00:18:46,490 --> 00:18:50,530 Speaker 1: So, Brett, what's the rebuttal? That this discussion around anti 321 00:18:50,530 --> 00:18:54,780 Speaker 1: Zionism and labeling people is anti Zionists is cutting off 322 00:18:54,890 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: the kind of legitimate, necessary, sometimes difficult conversations that necessitate 323 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,050 Speaker 1: that are the basis of sustaining some hope for a 324 00:19:04,060 --> 00:19:08,310 Speaker 1: two state solution? You know, just recently in the United States, 325 00:19:09,330 --> 00:19:13,369 Speaker 1: we've had a NAR Gye mint between left and right 326 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,750 Speaker 1: over some horrendous comments that the president made with respect 327 00:19:17,750 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: to four minority Congress women 328 00:19:20,150 --> 00:19:22,530 Speaker 1: in which he said that they should quote, go back 329 00:19:22,780 --> 00:19:25,630 Speaker 1: to the countries that are supposedly their countries of origin. 330 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:33,170 Speaker 1: And obviously, and importantly, Omar has a history of launching 331 00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: vicious anti Semitic 332 00:19:36,340 --> 00:19:37,109 Speaker 1: screens. 333 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,859 Speaker 1: I mean, to me, this is a nakedly bigoted and 334 00:19:43,970 --> 00:19:46,660 Speaker 1: frankly racist comment, and I don't need 335 00:19:47,330 --> 00:19:50,250 Speaker 1: I don't need anyone to tell me otherwise, but I 336 00:19:50,260 --> 00:19:52,379 Speaker 1: found it interesting to listen to some 337 00:19:52,900 --> 00:19:54,619 Speaker 1: conservative commentators 338 00:19:55,190 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 1: either duck the question of the statements, bigotry and racism altogether, 339 00:19:59,690 --> 00:20:03,030 Speaker 1: or actually engage in this kind of fine grained, legalistic 340 00:20:03,030 --> 00:20:07,180 Speaker 1: parsing as to whether it was racist or merely xenophobic. 341 00:20:07,180 --> 00:20:10,770 Speaker 1: We live in an age when we not only see 342 00:20:10,770 --> 00:20:12,730 Speaker 1: and hear, but if you don't mind my saying when 343 00:20:12,730 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: we smell, when we get that whiff of racist bigotry, 344 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,930 Speaker 1: we call it out. And people on the left people 345 00:20:19,940 --> 00:20:23,940 Speaker 1: who typically are on Peter Side of the debate have 346 00:20:23,940 --> 00:20:27,230 Speaker 1: been very vocal in doing so. And I, of course, 347 00:20:27,230 --> 00:20:30,070 Speaker 1: have have joined them in that as a as a 348 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: so called never trump conservative. But I find amazing is 349 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:35,850 Speaker 1: that when we come to a different kind of bigotry, 350 00:20:35,850 --> 00:20:39,659 Speaker 1: which is the bigotry against Jews that all of a sudden, 351 00:20:39,660 --> 00:20:43,360 Speaker 1: my friends who are so attuned to micro aggressions into 352 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,930 Speaker 1: racist dog whistles start to sound a little bit like 353 00:20:46,940 --> 00:20:49,750 Speaker 1: the Mitch McConnells of the world and trying to carefully 354 00:20:49,750 --> 00:20:53,580 Speaker 1: parse exactly what the language was that was used and 355 00:20:53,580 --> 00:20:57,300 Speaker 1: to make excuses for people who are engaging in just 356 00:20:57,300 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: the kinds of stereotypes and tropes and language that those 357 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,340 Speaker 1: of us who understand anti Semitism are unfortunately all too 358 00:21:06,340 --> 00:21:09,010 Speaker 1: familiar with. And I would wish that someone like Peter, 359 00:21:09,020 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 1: who is so honorably thoughtful when it comes to calling 360 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,220 Speaker 1: out racism when he sees it and not allowing Racists 361 00:21:18,550 --> 00:21:23,770 Speaker 1: toe hide behind carefully parsed language, would be equally vocal 362 00:21:23,770 --> 00:21:28,209 Speaker 1: when it comes to not insisting on these exquisitely fine 363 00:21:28,210 --> 00:21:32,580 Speaker 1: grain distinctions between anti Zionism and anti Semitism. 364 00:21:33,490 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: I want to make a final point, which is this. 365 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:37,620 Speaker 1: We are living in an era 366 00:21:38,450 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: of resurgent anti Semitism, and this is not. This is 367 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 1: not a question of anti Semitism or anti Zionism. When 368 00:21:45,900 --> 00:21:49,350 Speaker 1: a program nearly happens in a synagogue in Paris, when 369 00:21:49,350 --> 00:21:53,930 Speaker 1: protesters in Germany call for Jews to go, Palestinian protesters 370 00:21:53,930 --> 00:21:56,790 Speaker 1: or Arab protesters in Germany call for choose to go 371 00:21:56,790 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: to the to the gas. When schools throughout Europe, Jewish 372 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:05,150 Speaker 1: schools are behind armed guards and when a synagogue in 373 00:22:05,150 --> 00:22:10,609 Speaker 1: Pittsburgh and another synagogue in San Diego is victimized by 374 00:22:10,710 --> 00:22:16,730 Speaker 1: anti Semitic, violent, murderous hatred. We're living in a certain Europe, 375 00:22:17,140 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: and that's an era in which we've learned that not 376 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:23,270 Speaker 1: just in Europe but also here in North America. Jews 377 00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:24,609 Speaker 1: aren't entirely safe, 378 00:22:25,140 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: the one place where Jews actually can defend themselves and 379 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,390 Speaker 1: have the sovereign and legal means to do so 380 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,530 Speaker 1: is in the state of Israel, and it behooves anyone 381 00:22:36,530 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: with a sense of the long and violent history of 382 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:41,260 Speaker 1: anti Semitism 383 00:22:41,820 --> 00:22:45,610 Speaker 1: toe understand that. That's why those of us who have 384 00:22:45,609 --> 00:22:51,550 Speaker 1: that sense are so careful to not only denounce anti 385 00:22:51,550 --> 00:22:54,980 Speaker 1: Semitism when we see it, but to understand that the 386 00:22:54,980 --> 00:22:57,889 Speaker 1: long term security of the Jewish people 387 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:03,660 Speaker 1: requires the safety and health of the state of Israel 388 00:23:03,830 --> 00:23:08,709 Speaker 1: and when people sneakily make claims that they are for 389 00:23:08,710 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: the Jews but against Israel, that's something that we can't 390 00:23:12,859 --> 00:23:17,859 Speaker 1: just pretend is theoretically sound because we know the consequences 391 00:23:17,859 --> 00:23:21,129 Speaker 1: that too often follow from it. Thank you, Brad Peter. 392 00:23:21,130 --> 00:23:23,619 Speaker 1: That's the point that I've thought about also in the 393 00:23:23,619 --> 00:23:25,669 Speaker 1: context of this debate, I mean, why isn't it fair 394 00:23:25,670 --> 00:23:29,830 Speaker 1: to take a harder line on anti Zionism to draw clear, 395 00:23:29,830 --> 00:23:35,179 Speaker 1: sharper distinctions? Because we are seeing this wave of rising 396 00:23:35,180 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: anti Semitism, and how can the to not be in 397 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,710 Speaker 1: some way intertwined and linked and feeding off one another? 398 00:23:41,950 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 2: I mean, the two can be intertwined and interlinked if 399 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,810 Speaker 2: you've got a pro Palestinian march that is saying juice 400 00:23:47,810 --> 00:23:49,750 Speaker 2: to go to the gas, then That's clearly both anti 401 00:23:49,750 --> 00:23:52,050 Speaker 2: Zionist and anti Semitic. I'm not saying that people who 402 00:23:52,050 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 2: anti Zionist like Louis Farrakhan, for instance, or Hamas cannot 403 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,859 Speaker 2: also be anti Semitic. I'm simply saying that Zionists could 404 00:23:58,859 --> 00:24:02,010 Speaker 2: be anti Semites to look at Viktor Orban and that 405 00:24:02,020 --> 00:24:05,110 Speaker 2: anti Zionists cannot be anti Semites. You know, Brett might 406 00:24:05,109 --> 00:24:07,300 Speaker 2: not like the folks in Jewish for his for peace, 407 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,940 Speaker 2: but they have 15,000 members, which is almost as big 408 00:24:09,940 --> 00:24:12,500 Speaker 2: as some of the right wing Jewish organizations, and they 409 00:24:12,510 --> 00:24:14,850 Speaker 2: genuinely believe and again they come out of that. There's 410 00:24:14,850 --> 00:24:16,870 Speaker 2: a long tradition going back to the book and a 411 00:24:16,869 --> 00:24:19,940 Speaker 2: tradition of anti Zionist Jews not because they don't care 412 00:24:19,940 --> 00:24:22,540 Speaker 2: about Jewish welfare, but because they don't believe that ethnic 413 00:24:22,540 --> 00:24:26,500 Speaker 2: nationalism is the best way to provide for Jewish security. 414 00:24:26,510 --> 00:24:31,860 Speaker 2: And the problem is that anti Semitism is something very 415 00:24:31,859 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 2: frightening and very disturbing and is coming from both the 416 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,410 Speaker 2: left and the right. But it is not fair to 417 00:24:38,410 --> 00:24:42,270 Speaker 2: make Palestinians pay. The price for that is if to 418 00:24:42,270 --> 00:24:46,250 Speaker 2: suggest that because Jews are frightened because of our history 419 00:24:46,260 --> 00:24:50,180 Speaker 2: and frightened now that therefore we have no concern about 420 00:24:50,180 --> 00:24:54,010 Speaker 2: the rights of Palestinians that they write. Palestinians also have 421 00:24:54,020 --> 00:24:57,950 Speaker 2: basic rights and to deny Palestinians their basic rights is 422 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 2: also ah form of bigotry. I always find it odd 423 00:25:00,890 --> 00:25:03,010 Speaker 2: that so many of the same people who say that 424 00:25:03,010 --> 00:25:06,400 Speaker 2: it is bigoted to depose a Jewish state seem not 425 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,250 Speaker 2: to find it bigoted at all to oppose a Palestinian state, right? 426 00:25:10,250 --> 00:25:15,230 Speaker 2: Many members of Congress oppose a Palestinian state. Are they bigots, too? 427 00:25:16,310 --> 00:25:20,470 Speaker 1: ESO? Earlier this year, at a town hall meeting in 428 00:25:20,470 --> 00:25:23,939 Speaker 1: ST Catharines, Ontario, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau came out 429 00:25:23,940 --> 00:25:28,790 Speaker 1: against the BDS movement, the Boycott, divestment and sanctions movement, 430 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: which is the campaign promoting various boycotts against the state 431 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,109 Speaker 1: of Israel. Here's a clip when you have movements like 432 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,590 Speaker 1: BDs that singles out Israel 433 00:25:39,410 --> 00:25:43,619 Speaker 1: that seeks to delegitimize and in some cases, demonize. When 434 00:25:43,619 --> 00:25:45,730 Speaker 1: you have students on campus 435 00:25:46,540 --> 00:25:50,430 Speaker 1: dealing with things like Israel apartheid weeks, that makes them 436 00:25:50,540 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: fearful of actually attending campus events because of their religion 437 00:25:55,890 --> 00:25:59,609 Speaker 1: in Canada. We have to recognize that there are things 438 00:25:59,700 --> 00:26:03,590 Speaker 1: that aren't acceptable, not because of foreign policy concerns, 439 00:26:04,270 --> 00:26:08,550 Speaker 1: but because of Canadian values. It's not right to discriminate 440 00:26:08,550 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: or to make someone feel unsafe on campus because of 441 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 1: their religion. And unfortunately, the BDS movement is often linked 442 00:26:17,250 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: to those kinds of friends. Peter Beinhart first to you. 443 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: Do you agree with people like Justin Trudeau? Is the 444 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,330 Speaker 1: BDs movement anti Semitic? 445 00:26:25,550 --> 00:26:28,149 Speaker 2: No, I don't think the BDS movement is inherently anti Semitic. 446 00:26:28,150 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 2: They're certainly anti Semites in the BDs movement. As I said, 447 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,820 Speaker 2: there are anti Semites on the pro Israel right, both 448 00:26:34,820 --> 00:26:37,690 Speaker 2: in the U. S and Europe as well. The BDS movement, 449 00:26:37,700 --> 00:26:41,820 Speaker 2: which I oppose, wants to boycott all of Israel until 450 00:26:41,830 --> 00:26:45,820 Speaker 2: Israel leaves the occupied territories until there is the right 451 00:26:45,820 --> 00:26:48,629 Speaker 2: of refugee return. And until there is a quality for 452 00:26:48,630 --> 00:26:52,140 Speaker 2: Palestinian citizens, I have critiques of all of those three points. 453 00:26:52,140 --> 00:26:56,100 Speaker 2: But there's nothing inherently anti Semitic in that view, unless 454 00:26:56,100 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 2: you believe that it is bigoted to oppose Jewish state 455 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 2: in which I don't believe others would say it's bigoted 456 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,100 Speaker 2: because they're singling out Israel. The problem with that argument 457 00:27:05,109 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 2: is that the BDS movement emerges from Palestinian civil society. 458 00:27:08,770 --> 00:27:12,540 Speaker 2: It was a Palestinian call for a boycott modeled on 459 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 2: the call by Black by the A, M, C and 460 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 2: others in black South Africa. People around the world are 461 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 2: responding to that call Most of those people, in my experience, 462 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 2: who supported the BDS movement. They're responding to a particular 463 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 2: boycott call from the Palestinians, and it is not discriminatory 464 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 2: to respond to one particular groups of people's call for 465 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 2: a boycott. I think if there were a similar movement 466 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,610 Speaker 2: that emerged from Tibet or Saudi Arabia, you would see 467 00:27:36,609 --> 00:27:39,100 Speaker 2: that many of those same people, including myself, would be 468 00:27:39,100 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 2: very sympathetic to 469 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 1: it. 470 00:27:40,740 --> 00:27:43,700 Speaker 1: But the problem is that there is no similar movement. 471 00:27:43,930 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: And here's why the BDS movement is anti Semitic because 472 00:27:48,020 --> 00:27:51,460 Speaker 1: the same people who don't think twice about using cell 473 00:27:51,460 --> 00:27:56,609 Speaker 1: phones with components that are made by prison labor in China, 474 00:27:56,830 --> 00:27:59,070 Speaker 1: the same people who wouldn't think twice about taking a 475 00:27:59,070 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: vacation in India. Despite questions about India's position in Kashmir, 476 00:28:05,940 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: the same people who wouldn't think twice about visiting Istanbul 477 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,470 Speaker 1: have alighted on the one state that they wish to 478 00:28:13,470 --> 00:28:17,750 Speaker 1: boycott and divest from, which just by some weird coincidence, 479 00:28:18,070 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 1: happens to be the Jewish state and the origins. I'm 480 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: sorry to say, but the origins of the BDS movement 481 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,619 Speaker 1: do not lie in the American civil rights movement. The 482 00:28:26,619 --> 00:28:29,959 Speaker 1: origins of the BDs movement lie in the longstanding Arab 483 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,910 Speaker 1: boycott of the state of Israel, which began even before 484 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,770 Speaker 1: Israel came into existence, began in the early 19 forties. 485 00:28:38,070 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: That partakes of the kind of odious bigotry that, of course, 486 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: was ubiquitous in Nazi Germany when Jewish businesses were being 487 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: boycotted for obvious and obviously anti Semitic reasons back then. 488 00:28:50,830 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: So if you're gonna tell me that you oppose Israeli 489 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: policy in the West Bank and therefore you're gonna boycott 490 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,590 Speaker 1: Israel just as you are boycotting Chinese goods, Justus, you 491 00:28:59,590 --> 00:29:02,230 Speaker 1: are boycotting Russian goods and so forth and so on. 492 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,650 Speaker 1: Then I'm happy to make an exception for you and 493 00:29:06,650 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: to say that at least you're applying your principles universally. 494 00:29:09,940 --> 00:29:12,550 Speaker 1: But when you have a movement that is singularly focused 495 00:29:12,550 --> 00:29:15,860 Speaker 1: on boycotting the state, that happens to be the Jewish 496 00:29:15,860 --> 00:29:17,830 Speaker 1: one in a way that you're not applying that same 497 00:29:17,830 --> 00:29:23,150 Speaker 1: principle equally, then that's a discriminatory and anti Semitic practice, 498 00:29:23,150 --> 00:29:24,220 Speaker 1: and we should listen. 499 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,730 Speaker 1: People who are the victims of bigotry, whether they are black, 500 00:29:28,730 --> 00:29:31,540 Speaker 1: whether they are gay or whether they are Jews, do 501 00:29:31,540 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: not have the option to be idiots. They do not 502 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,750 Speaker 1: have the option to say, Well, let's constantly give those 503 00:29:38,750 --> 00:29:42,690 Speaker 1: who are persecuting us the benefit of the doubt. On 504 00:29:42,690 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: the contrary, they have an obligation not only to stand 505 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,830 Speaker 1: up for themselves, but they have an obligation to call 506 00:29:48,830 --> 00:29:51,310 Speaker 1: out bigotry as they see it. And at least put 507 00:29:51,310 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: the onus on the BDs er's or on the homophobes 508 00:29:55,850 --> 00:29:59,410 Speaker 1: or on the white nationalist to say, Tell us exactly 509 00:29:59,410 --> 00:30:02,469 Speaker 1: why it is that we shouldn't call out your bigotry. 510 00:30:02,650 --> 00:30:05,910 Speaker 1: If you can provide a convincing explanation, then we might 511 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: be willing to listen to you. But to preemptively simply say, Well, 512 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: the BDS movement 513 00:30:10,930 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: says it's not anti Semitic, and therefore we're going toe 514 00:30:13,670 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: to accept that explanation I think is worse than foolish. 515 00:30:17,290 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: It's naive, and it's an invitation for even more insidious 516 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:21,710 Speaker 1: kinds of bigotry. Look, 517 00:30:21,710 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 2: the BDS movement is a Palestinian movement. It emerged in 518 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 2: 2005 created by a call for Palestinian civil society, by 519 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,090 Speaker 2: the way, after the end of the second intifada, when 520 00:30:30,090 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 2: Palestinians were looking for a nonviolent way off trying to 521 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 2: gain their right. So there's something to me kind of 522 00:30:36,170 --> 00:30:39,710 Speaker 2: bizarre about saying about a Palestinian movement. Why are they 523 00:30:39,710 --> 00:30:44,220 Speaker 2: not focusing equally on Burma? It's a Palestinian movement created 524 00:30:44,220 --> 00:30:47,260 Speaker 2: by Palestinians. Yes, its appeal to people around the world. 525 00:30:47,270 --> 00:30:50,170 Speaker 2: But it was created by Palestinians because they're responding to 526 00:30:50,170 --> 00:30:53,900 Speaker 2: their own basic oppression. Anyone who's spent one day in 527 00:30:53,900 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 2: the West Bank with Palestinians will see the magnitude of 528 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 2: that of that oppression, people who live without their whole 529 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,150 Speaker 2: lives without basic rights. I mean the notion that you 530 00:31:02,150 --> 00:31:06,270 Speaker 2: are a bigot if you focus on one particular unjust 531 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,550 Speaker 2: policy you want oppose because you don't oppose all in 532 00:31:09,550 --> 00:31:12,469 Speaker 2: the world with the same vigor, I just think belies reality. 533 00:31:12,470 --> 00:31:16,220 Speaker 2: In the 19 seventies, the organized American Jewish community boycotted 534 00:31:16,220 --> 00:31:20,930 Speaker 2: the Bolshoi Ballet because Soviets were not allowing Giusto leave 535 00:31:20,940 --> 00:31:22,890 Speaker 2: the Soviet Union. And I think it was a very 536 00:31:22,890 --> 00:31:25,660 Speaker 2: proud moment in American Jewish history. The Sylvian was not 537 00:31:25,660 --> 00:31:27,850 Speaker 2: the worst regime in the world. At that point, there 538 00:31:27,850 --> 00:31:30,260 Speaker 2: was the Camaro Rouge. There was a D Amine. So 539 00:31:30,260 --> 00:31:33,260 Speaker 2: someone have said, Ah, this is bigotry. You're not equally 540 00:31:33,260 --> 00:31:36,690 Speaker 2: focused on what's happening in Cambodia. In Uganda, the point was, 541 00:31:36,690 --> 00:31:39,250 Speaker 2: this was a Jewish movement that was based on trying 542 00:31:39,250 --> 00:31:41,750 Speaker 2: to secure rights for Jews. People have the right to 543 00:31:41,750 --> 00:31:45,700 Speaker 2: try to gain liberation and for themselves. That's what the 544 00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:50,170 Speaker 2: BDS movement, which comes out of Palestinian society is, and 545 00:31:50,170 --> 00:31:52,390 Speaker 2: therefore I just don't think it makes sense to say 546 00:31:52,730 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 2: that it is bigoted because those people are not equally 547 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 2: focused on the 1,000,000 other forms of oppression that exists 548 00:31:58,640 --> 00:31:58,830 Speaker 2: in the 549 00:31:58,830 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: world. 550 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,959 Speaker 1: You're listening to the monk debate podcast, Be it resolved. 551 00:32:03,020 --> 00:32:07,220 Speaker 1: Anti Zionism is anti Semitism. Arguing for the motion is 552 00:32:07,220 --> 00:32:12,390 Speaker 1: New York Times columnist Bret Stephens. Peter Beinhart, contributing editor 553 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,540 Speaker 1: at the Atlantic, is arguing against the resolution. 554 00:32:18,940 --> 00:32:21,620 Speaker 1: One final question brief on this. Before we go into 555 00:32:21,620 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: your closing statements, just short summations each 556 00:32:25,140 --> 00:32:29,100 Speaker 1: Bret, is there something Peters said today that would cause 557 00:32:29,100 --> 00:32:31,850 Speaker 1: you to rethink a piece of your argument? 558 00:32:32,940 --> 00:32:33,390 Speaker 1: No 559 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,770 Speaker 1: Peter saying question to you. Are you set in the 560 00:32:37,780 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: thes beliefs or has Brett unsettled something that you've been 561 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: thinking about in terms of this 562 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 2: deal? I take very seriously. Bretz concern about what it 563 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:53,590 Speaker 2: would mean for Jews to enter into this very uncertain century, 564 00:32:53,590 --> 00:32:56,050 Speaker 2: continue down that path without a Jewish state, and so 565 00:32:56,050 --> 00:32:58,850 Speaker 2: in that regard that is something that worries me a 566 00:32:58,850 --> 00:33:02,250 Speaker 2: great deal, and I fully recognize that anti Zionist and 567 00:33:02,250 --> 00:33:05,060 Speaker 2: the BDS movement are led by people who don't want 568 00:33:05,060 --> 00:33:07,550 Speaker 2: a Jewish state to exist. So I understand that 569 00:33:08,090 --> 00:33:11,070 Speaker 2: fear and concern that Brett has it's simply that I 570 00:33:11,070 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 2: think a lot of this just comes out of all 571 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 2: the time that I spent with Palestinian anti Zionist. I 572 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,500 Speaker 2: just cannot call people in good conscience anti Semites when 573 00:33:19,510 --> 00:33:22,050 Speaker 2: I know from personal experience that they're not. And they 574 00:33:22,050 --> 00:33:24,410 Speaker 2: want the same things for their Children that I want 575 00:33:24,540 --> 00:33:27,970 Speaker 2: for myself, is their anti Semitism among anti Zionism, The 576 00:33:27,970 --> 00:33:30,890 Speaker 2: BDS movement? Yes, I've had Palestinians say to me that 577 00:33:30,890 --> 00:33:34,260 Speaker 2: they've heard and they've heard anti Semitic things in BDs 578 00:33:34,260 --> 00:33:37,730 Speaker 2: movement meetings that does exist. That is something that's very worrying. 579 00:33:37,730 --> 00:33:39,650 Speaker 2: But it's also important for us to remember that some 580 00:33:39,650 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 2: of the most prominent and I think dangerous anti Semites 581 00:33:42,490 --> 00:33:45,180 Speaker 2: in the world today are actually supporters of the state 582 00:33:45,180 --> 00:33:46,260 Speaker 2: of Israel as well. 583 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,570 Speaker 1: So Peter Wilson, closing remarks some up any key points 584 00:33:49,570 --> 00:33:51,430 Speaker 1: you wantto leave us with, I want to 585 00:33:51,430 --> 00:33:53,750 Speaker 2: briefly quote This is the Basic Law that was introduced 586 00:33:53,750 --> 00:33:57,890 Speaker 2: by three Palestinian Israeli members of the Knesset last year, 587 00:33:57,900 --> 00:34:00,260 Speaker 2: and they said we do not deny Israel or its 588 00:34:00,260 --> 00:34:02,340 Speaker 2: right to exist as a home for Jews were simply 589 00:34:02,340 --> 00:34:04,250 Speaker 2: saying that we want to base the existence of the 590 00:34:04,250 --> 00:34:06,500 Speaker 2: state not on the preference of Jews, but on the 591 00:34:06,500 --> 00:34:09,299 Speaker 2: basis of equality. The state should exist in the framework 592 00:34:09,300 --> 00:34:12,660 Speaker 2: of equality and not in the framer of preference and superiority. 593 00:34:12,750 --> 00:34:15,509 Speaker 2: I have my differences with those Palestinian members of the Knesset, 594 00:34:15,620 --> 00:34:19,169 Speaker 2: but I simply don't see how one can call that bigotry. 595 00:34:19,170 --> 00:34:22,490 Speaker 2: And this has very important real world implications because the 596 00:34:22,489 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 2: definition of anti Zionism as anti Semitism which was almost adopted, 597 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,610 Speaker 2: for instance by the University of California system. If you 598 00:34:28,610 --> 00:34:31,589 Speaker 2: say anti Zionism is anti Semitism on and should be 599 00:34:31,590 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 2: bigotry that therefore you know, deserves penalties when it's experienced 600 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,070 Speaker 2: on college campuses, you're basically saying that groups like Students 601 00:34:38,070 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 2: for Justice in Palestine, Theo entire Palestinian political movement basically 602 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,130 Speaker 2: is a form of bigotry and therefore doesn't necessarily have 603 00:34:46,140 --> 00:34:48,910 Speaker 2: the right basic rights to free speech. I think that's 604 00:34:49,230 --> 00:34:52,570 Speaker 2: deeply dangerous and dehumanizing. It's important to remember that we 605 00:34:52,570 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 2: not only live in a time of rising anti Semitism, 606 00:34:54,930 --> 00:34:58,209 Speaker 2: we also live in a time of rising Islamophobia, and 607 00:34:58,210 --> 00:35:00,969 Speaker 2: we live in an age where bigotry against Palestinians is, 608 00:35:00,969 --> 00:35:02,720 Speaker 2: in a way so pervasive that we don't even have 609 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,839 Speaker 2: a name for which is to say that people can 610 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,830 Speaker 2: routinely suggest that Palestinians should live their entire lives under 611 00:35:08,830 --> 00:35:11,300 Speaker 2: military law without basic rights. And we don't even think 612 00:35:11,300 --> 00:35:13,259 Speaker 2: about that. It's a form of bigotry. So if we're 613 00:35:13,260 --> 00:35:16,700 Speaker 2: concerned about bigotry, wanna fight all forms of bigotry? I 614 00:35:16,700 --> 00:35:20,230 Speaker 2: think inflating anti Zionism anti Semitism opens the door to 615 00:35:20,230 --> 00:35:24,490 Speaker 2: a very profound bigotry against Palestinians, which says they don't 616 00:35:24,489 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 2: have the right to live to express political views that 617 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 2: are based on their own experience and their desire for equality. 618 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:32,810 Speaker 2: And I think that's a mistake. 619 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,250 Speaker 1: Thank you, Peter Beinhart, Bret Stephens. You're closing remarks. 620 00:35:37,130 --> 00:35:41,109 Speaker 1: Israel has always been central to Jewish identity, and that 621 00:35:41,110 --> 00:35:44,370 Speaker 1: was true both before there was the state of Israel. 622 00:35:44,380 --> 00:35:48,509 Speaker 1: And in the 71 years that there has been a 623 00:35:48,510 --> 00:35:49,790 Speaker 1: state of Israel. 624 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,760 Speaker 1: We're living in a period in which the evidence of 625 00:35:53,770 --> 00:36:00,040 Speaker 1: rising and murderous anti Semitism is not only frightening, it's undeniable. 626 00:36:00,530 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 1: And so to get behind on ideology 627 00:36:05,130 --> 00:36:10,230 Speaker 1: that is inimical to the way in which the overwhelming 628 00:36:10,230 --> 00:36:11,840 Speaker 1: majority of Jews 629 00:36:12,469 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 1: see themselves and see their national and cultural and religious aspirations, 630 00:36:19,030 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 1: and to argue for the elimination 631 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,879 Speaker 1: of the one state in the world that provides every 632 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 1: Jew around the world with some assurance that there are 633 00:36:31,090 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 1: means for its own self defense strikes me as inherently 634 00:36:36,770 --> 00:36:41,370 Speaker 1: anti Semitic. Anyone who has a sense of moral decency 635 00:36:41,810 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: cares for the rights of all embattled minorities. And I 636 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: look forward to the day in which Palestinian leaders ceased 637 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,799 Speaker 1: to embrace groups like Hamas, which are anti Semitic and 638 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,770 Speaker 1: call for Israel's destruction and embrace the politics that leads 639 00:36:58,780 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 1: to a state in which all Palestinians have democratic representation 640 00:37:04,130 --> 00:37:08,240 Speaker 1: and liberal Democratic rights. While we wait for that to happen, 641 00:37:08,730 --> 00:37:13,780 Speaker 1: we should be avid Zionists because to wish for the 642 00:37:13,780 --> 00:37:19,370 Speaker 1: opposite is effectively leaving the Jewish people to resort to 643 00:37:19,370 --> 00:37:22,660 Speaker 1: the kindness of strangers. And anyone who knows anything about 644 00:37:22,660 --> 00:37:27,290 Speaker 1: Jewish history knows that that provides no long term security 645 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,610 Speaker 1: at all. Well, Bret Stephens, Peter Beinhart Thank you for 646 00:37:30,610 --> 00:37:34,510 Speaker 1: a civil substantive conversation on a difficult, contested issue. I 647 00:37:34,510 --> 00:37:38,500 Speaker 1: think we've moved the conversation forward, and it's thanks to 648 00:37:38,510 --> 00:37:43,020 Speaker 1: your thoughtfulness and your ability to engage with each other much, 649 00:37:43,030 --> 00:37:46,770 Speaker 1: much appreciated. Thank you thank you all the best. Thanks 650 00:37:46,770 --> 00:37:47,190 Speaker 1: a lot. 651 00:37:48,130 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the monk debate Podcast place 652 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,819 Speaker 1: for civil and substandard debate on the big issues of 653 00:37:54,820 --> 00:37:55,290 Speaker 1: the day 654 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 1: To listen to more debates on everything from climate change 655 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,630 Speaker 1: to religion, to geopolitics, to the future of human progress. 656 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,589 Speaker 1: Visit our website Triple W Monk debates dot com. 657 00:38:06,190 --> 00:38:08,830 Speaker 1: You can also find show notes on today's debate, along 658 00:38:08,830 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: with a full transcript. Thank you for helping us bring 659 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,810 Speaker 1: back the art of public debate. One Conversation at a time. 660 00:38:16,230 --> 00:38:17,270 Speaker 1: I'm Roger Griffiths 661 00:38:21,820 --> 00:38:25,049 Speaker 1: Monk Debates are produced by Antica Productions and supported by 662 00:38:25,050 --> 00:38:29,370 Speaker 1: the Monk Foundation. Roger Griffiths and Ricky Gurwitz are the producers, 663 00:38:29,810 --> 00:38:31,790 Speaker 1: the executive producer of Stuart Cox. 664 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: Be sure to download and subscribe wherever you get your 665 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,470 Speaker 1: podcasts and if you like us, feel free to give 666 00:38:38,469 --> 00:38:40,820 Speaker 1: us a rating. Thanks again for listening