1 00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:03,789 Speaker 1: Shortlisted is brought to you by Future Women's Jobs Academy. 2 00:00:04,079 --> 00:00:07,190 Speaker 1: Getting back to work after a career break isn't easy. 3 00:00:07,510 --> 00:00:11,300 Speaker 1: Future Women's Jobs Academy is a free online programme supported 4 00:00:11,300 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: by the Australian government. It's proven to increase confidence and 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:22,850 Speaker 1: connect women with meaningful and flexible jobs. Apply today at jobsacademy.uwomen.com. 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,229 Speaker 1: We'll support you to find the right job and thrive. 7 00:00:29,170 --> 00:00:31,799 Speaker 1: Nothing makes a person go weak at the knees quite 8 00:00:31,799 --> 00:00:36,449 Speaker 1: like a job interview. Enter shortlisted. A podcast by future 9 00:00:36,450 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: women where Helen McCabe and I hold your virtual hand, 10 00:00:40,330 --> 00:00:43,279 Speaker 1: walking with you every step of the way, right to 11 00:00:43,279 --> 00:00:46,810 Speaker 1: the interview door and straight onto the shortlist. 12 00:00:47,770 --> 00:00:51,610 Speaker 1: In this episode, we tackle the daunting prospect of what 13 00:00:51,610 --> 00:00:55,490 Speaker 1: to wear. Now, Helen and I don't normally make it 14 00:00:55,490 --> 00:00:59,450 Speaker 1: our business to tell anyone how to dress. But the 15 00:00:59,450 --> 00:01:02,959 Speaker 1: truth is that professional clothing has changed a lot, particularly 16 00:01:02,959 --> 00:01:05,649 Speaker 1: in the last few years. So let us bring you 17 00:01:05,650 --> 00:01:08,610 Speaker 1: up to date to make sure that your clothes don't 18 00:01:08,610 --> 00:01:10,848 Speaker 1: risk destabilising your confidence. 19 00:01:12,349 --> 00:01:14,519 Speaker 1: I'm so anxious about this episode. 20 00:01:15,129 --> 00:01:17,479 Speaker 2: Explain to everyone why this makes you anxious. 21 00:01:18,089 --> 00:01:22,010 Speaker 1: I feel really uncomfortable telling people what to wear. I 22 00:01:22,010 --> 00:01:23,849 Speaker 1: think it, it, it just comes from that. I, I 23 00:01:23,849 --> 00:01:25,929 Speaker 1: feel like I am entitled to tell myself what to 24 00:01:25,930 --> 00:01:28,809 Speaker 1: wear and occasionally my child. Uh, and even that, I 25 00:01:28,809 --> 00:01:31,639 Speaker 1: don't get a lot of control anymore anyway. Um, I, 26 00:01:31,669 --> 00:01:36,010 Speaker 1: I feel like the most important thing for people going 27 00:01:36,010 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 1: to a job interview and thinking about what to wear 28 00:01:39,129 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: should be them and their opinion and what makes them 29 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:42,099 Speaker 1: feel good. 30 00:01:42,569 --> 00:01:44,940 Speaker 1: And yet at the same time, which is what makes 31 00:01:44,940 --> 00:01:47,500 Speaker 1: this hard to answer, we know that there are a 32 00:01:47,500 --> 00:01:50,580 Speaker 1: level of expectations that people do have about workplace attire 33 00:01:50,580 --> 00:01:53,779 Speaker 1: and what people should wear, and rightly or wrongly, those 34 00:01:53,779 --> 00:01:58,870 Speaker 1: expectations exist. So, maybe Helen, it's worth reflecting on. 35 00:01:59,569 --> 00:02:02,290 Speaker 1: Maybe how it's changed, because you and I have both 36 00:02:02,290 --> 00:02:03,919 Speaker 1: been in the workforce for a while, and I feel 37 00:02:03,919 --> 00:02:07,599 Speaker 1: like what people wear to work has evolved. 38 00:02:07,809 --> 00:02:09,899 Speaker 2: Yeah, so the first point I would make to anyone, 39 00:02:10,089 --> 00:02:12,728 Speaker 2: you know, 40+ who's listening to this is that it 40 00:02:12,729 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 2: has changed a lot, and you're 100% right. Feeling comfortable in, uh, 41 00:02:17,970 --> 00:02:21,429 Speaker 2: the interview is the most important thing. So wearing what 42 00:02:21,429 --> 00:02:24,410 Speaker 2: makes you feel comfortable is point number one. 43 00:02:25,169 --> 00:02:29,059 Speaker 2: But therein lies the problem. Most of us don't know 44 00:02:29,059 --> 00:02:32,009 Speaker 2: what we're going to feel comfortable in, in an interview, 45 00:02:32,339 --> 00:02:35,728 Speaker 2: if we don't think we look appropriate or good. So, 46 00:02:35,899 --> 00:02:39,179 Speaker 2: what is appropriate and, and what is good? And I, 47 00:02:39,258 --> 00:02:42,580 Speaker 2: I despair too that so much focus is on what 48 00:02:42,580 --> 00:02:46,538 Speaker 2: we look like and what we wear, but, hey, ignoring 49 00:02:46,538 --> 00:02:48,979 Speaker 2: it is not very helpful to anyone who's going for 50 00:02:48,979 --> 00:02:50,979 Speaker 2: a job interview. So, we're gonna go 51 00:02:50,979 --> 00:02:54,130 Speaker 1: into it. So, firstly, let's recognise that. 52 00:02:54,850 --> 00:02:59,410 Speaker 1: As you've just said, workplace attire has become different. So 53 00:02:59,410 --> 00:03:01,258 Speaker 1: if you've been out of the workforce for a while, 54 00:03:01,770 --> 00:03:05,448 Speaker 1: going to an office, for example, is far less formal 55 00:03:05,449 --> 00:03:07,929 Speaker 1: than it used to be. There's been a real cultural 56 00:03:07,929 --> 00:03:11,209 Speaker 1: shift to workplace flexibility, and that was happening even before 57 00:03:11,210 --> 00:03:13,839 Speaker 1: the pandemic and the lockdowns and the movement to Zoom. 58 00:03:14,089 --> 00:03:17,130 Speaker 1: I think we were getting more casual and more comfortable 59 00:03:17,410 --> 00:03:20,250 Speaker 1: at work, and that's a really good thing. More recently, 60 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:22,500 Speaker 1: there's been some studies that show that work attire has 61 00:03:22,500 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: relaxed because 40% 62 00:03:23,839 --> 00:03:26,829 Speaker 1: percent of us have moved to remote work during the pandemic. So, 63 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,039 Speaker 1: there's that COVID casual kind of thing, right? So, even 64 00:03:30,038 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: those who work in sectors where previously you were expected 65 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:35,570 Speaker 1: to wear a suit and a tie, if you were 66 00:03:35,570 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: a man, you were expected to wear a suit. If 67 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,710 Speaker 1: you were a woman, you were supposed to wear high heels. Oh, 68 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:41,399 Speaker 1: if you were a woman, there was a set of 69 00:03:41,399 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: really formal expectations. There's a definite shift now to a 70 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,270 Speaker 1: more casual, working from home vibe. I've even observed it 71 00:03:48,270 --> 00:03:49,279 Speaker 1: in my own home. 72 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,119 Speaker 1: With my husband, who is a lawyer, and he would 73 00:03:53,119 --> 00:03:55,639 Speaker 1: have court days and non-court days. And court days are 74 00:03:55,639 --> 00:03:58,639 Speaker 1: days when you dress up and you look formal, and 75 00:03:58,639 --> 00:04:02,039 Speaker 1: even court attire has relaxed to a degree, and he's 76 00:04:02,039 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: wearing things I would never normally see him wear to work. 77 00:04:05,119 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: And I think for women, one of the positives is, 78 00:04:08,559 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: I think that, that kind of, um, spectrum of what 79 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: you can wear and get away with now at work 80 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,239 Speaker 1: is probably even broader and bigger than it used to be. 81 00:04:17,529 --> 00:04:21,489 Speaker 2: One UK study found that within 3 seconds, well-dressed people 82 00:04:21,488 --> 00:04:28,169 Speaker 2: were judged as more confident, successful, flexible, and high earners. Well, 83 00:04:28,329 --> 00:04:30,529 Speaker 1: yeah, exactly. So I've just talked about how important it 84 00:04:30,529 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 1: is to be comfortable and usual and that things have changed, 85 00:04:33,730 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: and yet, we've got to put it on the table 86 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: that people make judgments about you based on what. 87 00:04:38,428 --> 00:04:41,510 Speaker 1: You wear. Helen, there's another university study that we came 88 00:04:41,510 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 1: across that showed that it takes 0.1 of a second 89 00:04:45,170 --> 00:04:49,269 Speaker 1: before you start determining someone's character traits, like trustworthiness and 90 00:04:49,269 --> 00:04:53,329 Speaker 1: likability based on what they wear. And of course, uh, 91 00:04:53,470 --> 00:04:57,140 Speaker 1: I think women experience higher rates of discrimination around what 92 00:04:57,140 --> 00:05:00,390 Speaker 1: they wear than men, and people of colour, again, often 93 00:05:00,390 --> 00:05:02,690 Speaker 1: face bias and discrimination when it comes to 94 00:05:03,029 --> 00:05:05,630 Speaker 1: How they look. So, some of this is just some 95 00:05:05,869 --> 00:05:09,149 Speaker 1: horrible facts, folks, about bias. I think what we need 96 00:05:09,149 --> 00:05:11,019 Speaker 1: to do in a case like this is to acknowledge 97 00:05:11,059 --> 00:05:15,229 Speaker 1: that that bias exists and then to set it aside. So, 98 00:05:15,269 --> 00:05:17,269 Speaker 1: if you're going to a job interview, I would expect 99 00:05:17,269 --> 00:05:20,750 Speaker 1: that you come in looking presentable. So, I don't want 100 00:05:20,750 --> 00:05:22,630 Speaker 1: you in your pyjamas. I don't want you in anything 101 00:05:22,630 --> 00:05:25,470 Speaker 1: that could be mistaken for your pyjamas. Having said that, 102 00:05:25,670 --> 00:05:27,190 Speaker 1: I don't expect you to be wearing a suit. 103 00:05:27,799 --> 00:05:30,089 Speaker 1: Don't expect you to be wearing even a collared shirt. 104 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,679 Speaker 1: You want to look nice and presentable. So if you 105 00:05:32,678 --> 00:05:35,109 Speaker 1: went and had lunch at mum's place or grandma's place, 106 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,078 Speaker 1: they wouldn't raise their eyebrows at you and go, Hm, 107 00:05:38,290 --> 00:05:41,799 Speaker 1: have you brushed your hair, Helen? Beyond that, I don't 108 00:05:41,799 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 1: think it's necessary for you to go out and spend 109 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,238 Speaker 1: a lot of money. I don't think it's necessary for 110 00:05:47,238 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: you to feel like you have to research a particular 111 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: workplace and what they wear. 112 00:05:51,899 --> 00:05:53,690 Speaker 1: I think you just need to make sure that you 113 00:05:53,690 --> 00:05:58,209 Speaker 1: feel really comfortable and confident in your clothes, and that 114 00:05:58,209 --> 00:06:00,450 Speaker 1: it's not something you're gonna fidget with. So when I 115 00:06:00,450 --> 00:06:03,570 Speaker 1: say comfortable, it's not just sort of body positivity kind 116 00:06:03,570 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: of comfortable. Literally comfortable. Don't wear something with a scratchy tag. 117 00:06:07,970 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: Don't wear something where the button pops all of the time. 118 00:06:10,450 --> 00:06:12,250 Speaker 1: Don't wear something where it's so tight around your waist, 119 00:06:12,290 --> 00:06:16,959 Speaker 1: you can't breathe properly. Make sure that you feel genuinely comfortable. 120 00:06:18,079 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 2: I agree, and I think almost anything's on the table. 121 00:06:21,079 --> 00:06:25,070 Speaker 2: I think you can wear, I'd probably rule out denim 122 00:06:25,070 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 2: if I was in a non-tech sector startupy environment. But 123 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,799 Speaker 2: other than that, I think you can wear any kind 124 00:06:32,799 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 2: of pant, any kind of shoe, any kind of blazer, 125 00:06:36,678 --> 00:06:39,799 Speaker 2: any kind of shirt, t-shirt, it's all good. 126 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:45,609 Speaker 2: You can probably dress the way you would normally dress 127 00:06:45,609 --> 00:06:49,459 Speaker 2: and get away with it. If you wear heels, I, 128 00:06:49,579 --> 00:06:54,820 Speaker 2: we were mentoring young women who work in the mining 129 00:06:54,820 --> 00:06:56,549 Speaker 2: sector recently. 130 00:06:56,859 --> 00:06:59,500 Speaker 2: And this amazing young woman in high views came on 131 00:06:59,500 --> 00:07:03,109 Speaker 2: with a full face of amazing makeup and false eyelashes, 132 00:07:03,170 --> 00:07:06,618 Speaker 2: and she said, I just like feeling like a girl, 133 00:07:06,950 --> 00:07:09,260 Speaker 2: and I love my makeup and I love being glamorous. 134 00:07:09,428 --> 00:07:11,829 Speaker 2: Go for it. Like, be who you are, because if 135 00:07:11,829 --> 00:07:13,989 Speaker 2: you get that job, it's gonna be a lot of 136 00:07:13,989 --> 00:07:17,589 Speaker 2: effort to shift from the makeup person to the non-makeup 137 00:07:17,589 --> 00:07:22,660 Speaker 2: person and vice versa. So, uh, my advice is, comfort 138 00:07:22,660 --> 00:07:25,420 Speaker 2: is around representing who you are. 139 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:27,519 Speaker 2: Now, one of the things that a friend of mine 140 00:07:27,519 --> 00:07:29,540 Speaker 2: was asking me the other day, uh, she was going 141 00:07:29,540 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 2: for a job in an artistic setting, and so she 142 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 2: wanted to wear the craziest, most artistic outfit because she 143 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:40,910 Speaker 2: wanted to be remembered. And that made sense to me. 144 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,140 Speaker 2: And I applauded that. And that was who she was anyway. 145 00:07:44,239 --> 00:07:46,850 Speaker 2: So she felt like, you know, that was a good 146 00:07:46,850 --> 00:07:50,119 Speaker 2: fit for her to be in bright colours and big 147 00:07:50,119 --> 00:07:53,359 Speaker 2: earrings and crazy hat. I don't know what she wore, 148 00:07:53,399 --> 00:07:54,679 Speaker 2: but it sounded crazy. 149 00:07:55,269 --> 00:07:58,390 Speaker 2: But she wanted to be remembered. And I think that's 150 00:07:58,390 --> 00:08:02,149 Speaker 2: worth considering. If you're more like me and clothes are 151 00:08:02,149 --> 00:08:05,989 Speaker 2: really to be understated as much as possible, I'm not 152 00:08:05,989 --> 00:08:09,790 Speaker 2: gonna be comfortable at anything that isn't wildly understated. I 153 00:08:09,790 --> 00:08:13,739 Speaker 2: hate being defined by what I'm wearing. So I choose 154 00:08:13,989 --> 00:08:16,279 Speaker 2: to be as understated as possible. 155 00:08:16,429 --> 00:08:17,070 Speaker 1: You try and avoid that. 156 00:08:17,170 --> 00:08:18,109 Speaker 1: If you possibly can. 157 00:08:18,359 --> 00:08:20,070 Speaker 2: But then, look, if you're, if you're actually on stage 158 00:08:20,070 --> 00:08:22,399 Speaker 2: or you're presenting, and, and then there's a different thing. 159 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,279 Speaker 2: It's a bit like, it's a bit like I read 160 00:08:24,279 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 2: once that the Queen always wore bright colours because she 161 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:27,839 Speaker 2: wanted people to be able to see her and because 162 00:08:27,839 --> 00:08:28,119 Speaker 2: she was 163 00:08:28,119 --> 00:08:30,679 Speaker 1: so little. Yeah, you wanna be able to see the queen. 164 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:31,950 Speaker 1: That's why people are there. Yeah. 165 00:08:32,159 --> 00:08:36,989 Speaker 2: So, um, that's why she always wore those fabulously bright colours. 166 00:08:37,119 --> 00:08:39,260 Speaker 2: A Zoom meeting, again, I, I 167 00:08:39,750 --> 00:08:42,650 Speaker 2: I was, was it with you a week ago and 168 00:08:42,650 --> 00:08:44,169 Speaker 2: someone said, I was with somebody else, and I said, 169 00:08:44,369 --> 00:08:45,929 Speaker 2: I said, Oh, you look glamorous today. And I had, 170 00:08:46,010 --> 00:08:47,369 Speaker 2: I actually had to show it. I had the Nike 171 00:08:47,369 --> 00:08:50,929 Speaker 2: tick on the t-shirt underneath the black jacket. Uh, I 172 00:08:50,929 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 2: would keep it just as simple as possible. Clean, simple, uncomplicated. 173 00:08:56,289 --> 00:08:59,849 Speaker 2: I just don't make your clothes a thing. I mean, that's, 174 00:09:00,010 --> 00:09:01,260 Speaker 2: I say that because 175 00:09:02,309 --> 00:09:05,789 Speaker 2: I think that's the majority of jobs, don't make your 176 00:09:05,789 --> 00:09:09,789 Speaker 2: clothes your thing, but there are jobs where the clothes 177 00:09:09,789 --> 00:09:13,819 Speaker 2: are the thing, and that's in the arts and the creative, 178 00:09:13,830 --> 00:09:17,049 Speaker 2: and if you are that person, then be. 179 00:09:17,929 --> 00:09:18,608 Speaker 2: Completely 180 00:09:18,609 --> 00:09:22,799 Speaker 1: be you. Yeah. I think very broadly, folks, what both 181 00:09:22,799 --> 00:09:24,409 Speaker 1: of us are coming back to is the idea that 182 00:09:24,409 --> 00:09:26,919 Speaker 1: you should feel like yourself. And if you are the 183 00:09:26,919 --> 00:09:28,848 Speaker 1: minor who loves your false eyelashes and a face full 184 00:09:28,849 --> 00:09:31,689 Speaker 1: of makeup, wear that. And if you are the understated 185 00:09:31,690 --> 00:09:33,929 Speaker 1: Helen who prefers to be an all black and doesn't 186 00:09:33,929 --> 00:09:36,039 Speaker 1: want to be remembered for your clothes, go with that. 187 00:09:36,179 --> 00:09:38,489 Speaker 1: If you're the artistic type who wants to wear bright 188 00:09:38,489 --> 00:09:40,728 Speaker 1: colours and loud earrings, go with that. 189 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,299 Speaker 1: The general rules of things to avoid are around things like, uh, 190 00:09:45,309 --> 00:09:48,059 Speaker 1: clothes that would restrict your movements or make you fidget 191 00:09:48,059 --> 00:09:51,210 Speaker 1: or make you uncomfortable. Make sure you're not really cold. 192 00:09:51,780 --> 00:09:54,500 Speaker 1: If you're cold, you're gonna feel more nervous. You know, 193 00:09:54,580 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 1: when you're cold, you get goosebumps and you shiver, uh, 194 00:09:56,739 --> 00:09:59,140 Speaker 1: which will make you feel more anxious. So try and 195 00:09:59,140 --> 00:10:01,939 Speaker 1: avoid that. Again, all of this comes back to you 196 00:10:01,940 --> 00:10:03,329 Speaker 1: and how you feel. 197 00:10:03,575 --> 00:10:05,924 Speaker 1: And if it's gonna make you more comfortable to do 198 00:10:05,924 --> 00:10:09,664 Speaker 1: some research on what's expected in that organisation and dress 199 00:10:09,664 --> 00:10:12,645 Speaker 1: accordingly to that organisation, do that. If it's gonna make 200 00:10:12,645 --> 00:10:15,684 Speaker 1: you feel more confident to be able to wear something 201 00:10:15,684 --> 00:10:18,354 Speaker 1: a bit more expensive, and you can afford that, do that. 202 00:10:18,645 --> 00:10:20,565 Speaker 1: If you're completely at a loss and you feel really 203 00:10:20,565 --> 00:10:23,125 Speaker 1: uncomfortable with what you do have available to you, there 204 00:10:23,125 --> 00:10:25,914 Speaker 1: are a bunch of charitable organisations that you can hit up. 205 00:10:26,239 --> 00:10:29,630 Speaker 1: Dress for success or one of them, where corporate wardrobes 206 00:10:29,630 --> 00:10:32,738 Speaker 1: are donated. So if it's something that you do wanna wear, 207 00:10:32,950 --> 00:10:35,530 Speaker 1: and it's not something that's available within your pay packet 208 00:10:35,530 --> 00:10:37,709 Speaker 1: at the moment, then go get some help. There are 209 00:10:37,710 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 1: people out there who can give you a hand. 210 00:10:39,669 --> 00:10:42,830 Speaker 2: I'm just gonna draw on my magazine experience for a 211 00:10:42,830 --> 00:10:43,669 Speaker 2: minute and say, 212 00:10:44,260 --> 00:10:48,179 Speaker 2: A white shirt every time. Really simple. Particularly if you're 213 00:10:48,179 --> 00:10:52,340 Speaker 2: over 40, a white shirt, well ironed, will get you 214 00:10:52,340 --> 00:10:55,580 Speaker 2: through almost every time. Don't go and buy anything, just 215 00:10:55,580 --> 00:10:56,979 Speaker 2: borrow it from the next door neighbour if you don't 216 00:10:56,979 --> 00:10:59,988 Speaker 2: have one. Put it in the nappy sand. Completely agree. You, 217 00:11:00,140 --> 00:11:03,179 Speaker 2: you do not have to purchase anything. There are organisations, 218 00:11:03,299 --> 00:11:05,059 Speaker 2: but you can just wear the simplest. 219 00:11:05,580 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 2: Um, particularly on Zoom. And just to finish, Jan, we 220 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,109 Speaker 2: did touch on how workplaces have changed, and if we've 221 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,239 Speaker 2: used the word corporate dress codes, corporate dress codes can 222 00:11:15,239 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 2: be sneakers now. It's not a, it's not a heel. 223 00:11:18,799 --> 00:11:21,359 Speaker 2: You can literally get away. And again, I'm talking to 224 00:11:21,359 --> 00:11:24,940 Speaker 2: anyone over 40, you don't have to wear a heel. 225 00:11:25,460 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 2: Happy days. 226 00:11:27,950 --> 00:11:32,109 Speaker 1: Shortlisted is produced by Future Women's Jobs Academy. To apply 227 00:11:32,109 --> 00:11:38,108 Speaker 1: to join, head to jobsacademy.uwomen.com or go touwomen.com to become 228 00:11:38,109 --> 00:11:39,949 Speaker 1: a future women member today.