1 00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: Shortlisted is brought to you by Future Women's Jobs Academy. 2 00:00:04,079 --> 00:00:07,269 Speaker 1: Getting back to work after a career break isn't easy. 3 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,319 Speaker 1: Future Women's Jobs Academy is a free online programme supported 4 00:00:11,319 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: by the Australian government. It's proven to increase confidence and 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: connect women with meaningful and flexible jobs. Apply today at jobsacademy.uwomen.com. 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,209 Speaker 1: We'll support you to find the right job and thrive. 7 00:00:29,170 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: Nothing makes a person go weak at the knees quite 8 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:36,449 Speaker 1: like a job interview. Enter shortlisted. A podcast by future 9 00:00:36,450 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: women where Helen McCabe and I hold your virtual hand, 10 00:00:40,330 --> 00:00:43,279 Speaker 1: walking with you every step of the way, right to 11 00:00:43,279 --> 00:00:48,319 Speaker 1: the interview door and straight onto the shortlist. In this episode, 12 00:00:48,409 --> 00:00:50,970 Speaker 1: we kick off a series of episodes that teach you 13 00:00:50,970 --> 00:00:55,369 Speaker 1: how to bring up and address potentially tricky interview subjects, 14 00:00:55,610 --> 00:00:56,970 Speaker 1: beginning with flexible work. 15 00:00:57,750 --> 00:01:01,740 Speaker 1: How do you ask to work part-time or from home, 16 00:01:01,909 --> 00:01:05,779 Speaker 1: or to leave at 3 p.m. on Wednesdays without jeopardising 17 00:01:05,779 --> 00:01:09,830 Speaker 1: your chances of getting the gig. Let's explore what might 18 00:01:09,830 --> 00:01:11,949 Speaker 1: work for you and how to ask for it. 19 00:01:13,339 --> 00:01:16,929 Speaker 2: You don't get what you don't ask for, but how 20 00:01:16,930 --> 00:01:20,470 Speaker 2: do you approach the F word, flexible work without jeopardising 21 00:01:20,470 --> 00:01:23,599 Speaker 2: your chances of landing the job? Do you do it 22 00:01:23,599 --> 00:01:25,269 Speaker 2: up front or wait? 23 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:27,839 Speaker 1: OK, OK, that's a big question. We're gonna go through 24 00:01:27,839 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: some things and lay some groundwork before we get to that. 25 00:01:31,260 --> 00:01:34,849 Speaker 1: Firstly, I think it's really important to say that there 26 00:01:34,849 --> 00:01:38,970 Speaker 1: are a whole bunch of flexible work arrangements available. Flexible 27 00:01:38,970 --> 00:01:41,128 Speaker 1: work is not a one size fits all. That's the 28 00:01:41,129 --> 00:01:44,220 Speaker 1: whole idea of it being flexible. Flexibility isn't just about 29 00:01:44,220 --> 00:01:46,739 Speaker 1: working part time or working from home, and it's not 30 00:01:46,739 --> 00:01:50,279 Speaker 1: just for people who work in offices. Um, the number 31 00:01:50,279 --> 00:01:52,889 Speaker 1: of times through our work in Jobs Academy that people 32 00:01:52,889 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: have said to me, Oh, but I'm a, 33 00:01:56,510 --> 00:02:01,110 Speaker 1: Teacher, I'm a lab researcher, I'm a minor. I do 34 00:02:01,110 --> 00:02:04,500 Speaker 1: some kind of work that isn't flexible or can't be flexible. 35 00:02:04,629 --> 00:02:07,510 Speaker 1: It's not true. All work can be flexible if we 36 00:02:07,510 --> 00:02:10,820 Speaker 1: want it to be enough. Um, there's a whole bunch 37 00:02:10,820 --> 00:02:13,070 Speaker 1: of flexible work arrangements that you may want to think 38 00:02:13,070 --> 00:02:15,750 Speaker 1: about and you may want to request. And the Workplace 39 00:02:15,750 --> 00:02:18,630 Speaker 1: Gender Equality Agency has a list on their website of 40 00:02:18,630 --> 00:02:20,948 Speaker 1: all the various types, if you want to have a look. Uh, 41 00:02:21,070 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: they talk about everything from 42 00:02:22,647 --> 00:02:26,947 Speaker 1: Flexible hours in terms of starting early, finishing late, break times. 43 00:02:27,197 --> 00:02:30,597 Speaker 1: They talk about compressed working weeks. So, working 5 days 44 00:02:30,597 --> 00:02:34,185 Speaker 1: and 4 days, for example. They talk about rosters and 45 00:02:34,186 --> 00:02:38,037 Speaker 1: shift swapping for people who are working in shifts. They 46 00:02:38,037 --> 00:02:41,746 Speaker 1: talk about time in lie and flex time, job sharing, uh, 47 00:02:41,837 --> 00:02:45,557 Speaker 1: purchase leave, flexible careers, working from home, or hybrid arrangements, 48 00:02:45,677 --> 00:02:48,316 Speaker 1: as well as part-time work. So, the first thing I'd 49 00:02:48,317 --> 00:02:49,046 Speaker 1: say to people is 50 00:02:49,203 --> 00:02:51,833 Speaker 1: when you're thinking about what flexibility looks like for you 51 00:02:51,833 --> 00:02:54,764 Speaker 1: and the kind of flexibility you want, is that your 52 00:02:54,764 --> 00:03:00,473 Speaker 1: vision is almost certainly quite limited in what flexibility is possible. 53 00:03:00,723 --> 00:03:04,763 Speaker 1: So I would broaden your view, because just because flexibility 54 00:03:04,764 --> 00:03:07,884 Speaker 1: type A isn't a possibility for that employer doesn't mean 55 00:03:07,883 --> 00:03:12,203 Speaker 1: flexibility type B is. So we need to be flexible 56 00:03:12,203 --> 00:03:13,893 Speaker 1: in our approach to flexible work, Helen. 57 00:03:14,123 --> 00:03:15,444 Speaker 2: Absolutely. So that's the work. 58 00:03:15,541 --> 00:03:18,641 Speaker 2: Place gender equality agency that we've talked a bit about. 59 00:03:18,770 --> 00:03:21,930 Speaker 2: It's a really great resource to just go to if 60 00:03:21,930 --> 00:03:27,011 Speaker 2: you're considering any of these issues. In data in 2021, 61 00:03:27,050 --> 00:03:31,451 Speaker 2: it found that 78% of Australian organisations in the private 62 00:03:31,451 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 2: sector have a flexible working policy or strategy in place, 63 00:03:36,850 --> 00:03:40,210 Speaker 2: and that's more than ever before. So, if you're looking 64 00:03:40,210 --> 00:03:41,850 Speaker 2: for negotiating flexible work, 65 00:03:42,220 --> 00:03:46,179 Speaker 2: The conditions are pretty good. Now, they're not fantastic. 66 00:03:46,339 --> 00:03:48,339 Speaker 1: They're comparatively good. They're pretty 67 00:03:48,339 --> 00:03:51,860 Speaker 2: good. So, we want you to go into those negotiations 68 00:03:51,860 --> 00:03:54,979 Speaker 2: feeling quite confident. And just to go back to the 69 00:03:54,979 --> 00:03:59,509 Speaker 2: point we made an earlier episode about negotiating pay rises, 70 00:03:59,820 --> 00:04:01,740 Speaker 2: this is really good to think about. 71 00:04:02,044 --> 00:04:05,125 Speaker 2: If you're worried about your pay rise, that's not coming through, 72 00:04:05,365 --> 00:04:08,125 Speaker 2: why not think about flexible work and looking at the 73 00:04:08,125 --> 00:04:10,324 Speaker 2: sorts of things that would make your week a little 74 00:04:10,324 --> 00:04:15,324 Speaker 2: easier or better for your family. In 2014, just 57% 75 00:04:15,324 --> 00:04:19,325 Speaker 2: of organisations had a policy around flexible work, so that's 76 00:04:19,325 --> 00:04:21,325 Speaker 2: how big it's grown. 77 00:04:21,769 --> 00:04:26,049 Speaker 2: But the bias still persists. So let's talk a bit 78 00:04:26,049 --> 00:04:30,409 Speaker 2: about the problem of getting to the point of negotiating 79 00:04:30,410 --> 00:04:31,359 Speaker 2: a flexible role. 80 00:04:31,730 --> 00:04:35,049 Speaker 1: Yeah, so we've talked about flexibility at work, perhaps more 81 00:04:35,049 --> 00:04:38,308 Speaker 1: than ever, over the last couple of years during the pandemic. 82 00:04:38,649 --> 00:04:42,049 Speaker 1: And while it's true, what Helen says, that workplaces have 83 00:04:42,049 --> 00:04:44,290 Speaker 1: come a long way, research shows that there is still 84 00:04:44,290 --> 00:04:49,649 Speaker 1: a disconnect between the prevalence of flexible working and employees' 85 00:04:49,649 --> 00:04:51,409 Speaker 1: experience of working flexibly. 86 00:04:51,769 --> 00:04:54,980 Speaker 1: So a lot of employees who have been granted flexible 87 00:04:54,980 --> 00:04:58,769 Speaker 1: work still feel like when they're actually doing the job, 88 00:04:59,100 --> 00:05:02,488 Speaker 1: that doesn't manifest in reality, that it's not as flexible 89 00:05:02,488 --> 00:05:04,769 Speaker 1: as they were told it would be at the interview point. 90 00:05:05,059 --> 00:05:08,419 Speaker 1: So there are also studies that show that Australian employers 91 00:05:08,420 --> 00:05:12,140 Speaker 1: recognise the benefits of flexible work. In fact, 41% of 92 00:05:12,140 --> 00:05:17,059 Speaker 1: them say it boosts employee engagement and satisfaction, and 27% 93 00:05:17,059 --> 00:05:20,700 Speaker 1: say it helps in attraction and retention of talent. 94 00:05:21,019 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: But at the same time, a lot of employers also 95 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: say that they're concerned over the impact that flexible work 96 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 1: can have on things like employee productivity. And I think 97 00:05:31,359 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: there are still some really old school myths, Helen, about 98 00:05:35,290 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: particularly things like working at home. 99 00:05:37,149 --> 00:05:39,618 Speaker 1: That people will be out of sight and out of mind, 100 00:05:39,829 --> 00:05:43,029 Speaker 1: and that those employees will slack off, or they'll be 101 00:05:43,029 --> 00:05:45,618 Speaker 1: doing the laundry, or they won't be getting the job done, 102 00:05:45,869 --> 00:05:48,350 Speaker 1: as opposed to recognising the benefits, which means that that 103 00:05:48,350 --> 00:05:50,470 Speaker 1: employee can work more rather than spending their time on 104 00:05:50,470 --> 00:05:52,190 Speaker 1: a useless commute, right? 105 00:05:52,940 --> 00:05:54,929 Speaker 2: And one of the things that I think we've learned 106 00:05:55,238 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 2: through working in the jobs academy is that sometimes organisations 107 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 2: talk a big game and flexible work, and, and the 108 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 2: reality is quite the reverse, particularly in the context of 109 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,518 Speaker 2: new employees. You can get flexible work in that company 110 00:06:09,519 --> 00:06:09,729 Speaker 2: if you 111 00:06:09,774 --> 00:06:12,005 Speaker 2: You've been there for a long time, and you've established 112 00:06:12,005 --> 00:06:16,285 Speaker 2: your credentials, no problem. They will let you do whatever 113 00:06:16,285 --> 00:06:19,005 Speaker 2: you want. But if you're new to the job, sometimes 114 00:06:19,005 --> 00:06:22,924 Speaker 2: there is still strong resistance to flexible work. So, I'm 115 00:06:22,924 --> 00:06:26,604 Speaker 2: in an interview. Should I ask about flexible work upfront? 116 00:06:28,049 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: Great question. And as always, my answer is, it depends. Firstly, 117 00:06:33,010 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: I would say that I think you need to do 118 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,089 Speaker 1: your research. So you need to gauge before you come 119 00:06:38,089 --> 00:06:42,089 Speaker 1: to the interview, how open this organisation or industry is 120 00:06:42,089 --> 00:06:45,450 Speaker 1: to flexible work. And that'll help inform how you approach 121 00:06:45,450 --> 00:06:46,329 Speaker 1: this conversation. 122 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,070 Speaker 1: It's not necessarily gonna inform whether you have this conversation 123 00:06:49,070 --> 00:06:51,950 Speaker 1: at all. Flexible work might be essential for you in 124 00:06:51,950 --> 00:06:54,308 Speaker 1: taking a job, but it will help you figure out 125 00:06:54,309 --> 00:06:57,190 Speaker 1: how to approach it. So, go look for things like 126 00:06:57,190 --> 00:07:00,470 Speaker 1: annual reports on their website. They will have policies about 127 00:07:00,470 --> 00:07:04,269 Speaker 1: flexible work. If they have more than 100 employees, you 128 00:07:04,269 --> 00:07:08,049 Speaker 1: can also search their legal name on the Wugeia Data Explorer, 129 00:07:08,149 --> 00:07:10,470 Speaker 1: and it will actually tell things about, like, whether they 130 00:07:10,470 --> 00:07:12,950 Speaker 1: have a flex policy, and if so, what types of 131 00:07:12,950 --> 00:07:14,709 Speaker 1: flexible work are in. 132 00:07:14,822 --> 00:07:18,372 Speaker 1: Included. And I would say, before you go about asking 133 00:07:18,372 --> 00:07:21,092 Speaker 1: in an interview, you should also ask yourself a couple 134 00:07:21,092 --> 00:07:24,602 Speaker 1: of questions. Ask yourself if this is a deal breaker. 135 00:07:24,812 --> 00:07:28,613 Speaker 1: Is flexible work something that must happen for you? If 136 00:07:28,613 --> 00:07:31,092 Speaker 1: that's the case, I would talk about it upfront in 137 00:07:31,092 --> 00:07:33,692 Speaker 1: the first interview, because there's no point going through the 138 00:07:33,692 --> 00:07:36,703 Speaker 1: dance of 3 interviews if at the final hurdle, you're 139 00:07:36,703 --> 00:07:39,572 Speaker 1: going to say, but I can only work 9 till 140 00:07:39,572 --> 00:07:42,333 Speaker 1: 3 p.m. 3 days a week. And the employer says, Well, 141 00:07:42,412 --> 00:07:42,893 Speaker 1: that doesn't work. 142 00:07:43,045 --> 00:07:45,385 Speaker 1: For us. You may as well have that conversation early 143 00:07:45,385 --> 00:07:48,436 Speaker 1: and not waste their time or yours, and give yourself 144 00:07:48,436 --> 00:07:51,795 Speaker 1: the best opportunity. Having said that, if you've got an 145 00:07:51,795 --> 00:07:54,305 Speaker 1: employer who's looking for you at 5 days a week, 146 00:07:54,476 --> 00:07:58,226 Speaker 1: and you are pretty sure you've got a good handle 147 00:07:58,226 --> 00:08:01,055 Speaker 1: on this relationship, that they really want you and that 148 00:08:01,055 --> 00:08:04,305 Speaker 1: they're chasing you as an employee, there's nothing wrong with 149 00:08:04,305 --> 00:08:06,955 Speaker 1: giving them a couple of interviews to really fall in 150 00:08:06,955 --> 00:08:09,726 Speaker 1: love with you before saying, actually, I'd like to do 151 00:08:09,726 --> 00:08:11,115 Speaker 1: my 5 day working week in 4. 152 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:16,519 Speaker 2: Absolutely. So, 3 strategies for negotiating flexible work, asking, bending, 153 00:08:16,559 --> 00:08:20,910 Speaker 2: and shaping. So, Jamila's just outlined shaping. If the role 154 00:08:20,910 --> 00:08:24,239 Speaker 2: that you're applying for is advertised as flexible, you can 155 00:08:24,239 --> 00:08:28,239 Speaker 2: begin having conversations with your recruiter or the employer to 156 00:08:28,239 --> 00:08:30,279 Speaker 2: discuss it at the end of the interview. And so 157 00:08:30,279 --> 00:08:31,399 Speaker 2: at the end of the interview, when they say, have 158 00:08:31,399 --> 00:08:33,839 Speaker 2: you got any other questions, you can say, I noticed 159 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,239 Speaker 2: the role was advertised as flexible. I'd like to know 160 00:08:36,239 --> 00:08:37,919 Speaker 2: a bit more about it. Perfectly legitimate. 161 00:08:38,549 --> 00:08:41,868 Speaker 2: Bending when there is no clear policy permitting a specific 162 00:08:41,869 --> 00:08:44,908 Speaker 2: type of flex that you're after, or they don't explicitly 163 00:08:44,908 --> 00:08:48,549 Speaker 2: advertise the role as flexible, hold off on having this 164 00:08:48,549 --> 00:08:51,598 Speaker 2: conversation until further along in the interview process. Then when 165 00:08:51,598 --> 00:08:54,708 Speaker 2: you've gained some bargaining power and you're getting to the 166 00:08:54,708 --> 00:08:57,749 Speaker 2: point of contract negotiations, you can then say, Oh, I'm 167 00:08:57,749 --> 00:08:58,879 Speaker 2: just interested to know. 168 00:08:59,340 --> 00:09:03,250 Speaker 2: What is your company's policy on flexible work? And you 169 00:09:03,250 --> 00:09:06,489 Speaker 2: might be able to say, I'm only asking because, you know, 170 00:09:06,570 --> 00:09:08,669 Speaker 2: I might be wanting to take on some more study, 171 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,159 Speaker 2: or I have caring responsibilities with the next door neighbour, 172 00:09:13,409 --> 00:09:16,049 Speaker 2: which is intermittent, so I'm just interested to know for 173 00:09:16,049 --> 00:09:20,169 Speaker 2: the future. Perfectly reasonable. Shaping, Jamilla. 174 00:09:21,020 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: So this is where you attempt to change the organization's 175 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,770 Speaker 1: policy to incorporate flexible work conditions, not just for yourself 176 00:09:27,770 --> 00:09:32,079 Speaker 1: but for the whole workplace. So, I would suggest that 177 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: probably not the best idea to raise implementing flexible work 178 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: across the organisation during the recruitment process. You just don't 179 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:40,030 Speaker 1: have sufficient 180 00:09:40,864 --> 00:09:43,814 Speaker 1: bargaining power to make that happen. I think that's something 181 00:09:43,815 --> 00:09:48,094 Speaker 1: that's best done once you're inside that organisation. And of course, 182 00:09:48,145 --> 00:09:51,905 Speaker 1: there are organisations like employee representative groups and unions where 183 00:09:51,905 --> 00:09:56,233 Speaker 1: you can work with them to push an agenda around 184 00:09:56,234 --> 00:09:59,104 Speaker 1: flexible work and all power to you. So you should. 185 00:10:00,219 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 2: What if the role was advertised as full-time or office-based, 186 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,309 Speaker 2: but you need to work part-time or from home? 187 00:10:07,169 --> 00:10:09,010 Speaker 2: Should you even apply for that job? I think 188 00:10:09,010 --> 00:10:11,609 Speaker 1: you should. I think you should definitely apply anyway. And 189 00:10:11,609 --> 00:10:12,890 Speaker 1: I don't know if I would have said that a 190 00:10:12,890 --> 00:10:15,729 Speaker 1: decade ago, but I would definitely say that now in 191 00:10:15,729 --> 00:10:19,409 Speaker 1: this post-COVID world that we're living in, not quite post-COVID, 192 00:10:19,450 --> 00:10:23,849 Speaker 1: but post lockdowns, hopefully. In that instance, I'd recommend taking 193 00:10:23,849 --> 00:10:27,819 Speaker 1: that bending approach that Helen just spoke about. So, wait 194 00:10:27,820 --> 00:10:30,559 Speaker 1: till you've got a little bit of bargaining power before 195 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:34,900 Speaker 1: you discuss your particular needs. Once they offer you the role, 196 00:10:35,130 --> 00:10:36,488 Speaker 1: that's the time to have that. 197 00:10:36,604 --> 00:10:38,395 Speaker 1: Conversation. It's not the first thing to bring up when 198 00:10:38,395 --> 00:10:41,195 Speaker 1: you come into the interview. It's not like, Hi, Helen McCabe, 199 00:10:41,315 --> 00:10:43,395 Speaker 1: tell us about yourself, and you say, Hi, I'm Helen. 200 00:10:43,474 --> 00:10:45,593 Speaker 1: I can only work part-time and from home 3 days 201 00:10:45,594 --> 00:10:47,505 Speaker 1: a week. That's not the time to bring it up. 202 00:10:48,034 --> 00:10:50,353 Speaker 1: Wait till they've fallen in love with you, and then 203 00:10:50,354 --> 00:10:51,674 Speaker 1: start to have that conversation. 204 00:10:52,169 --> 00:10:53,848 Speaker 1: At the same time, though, I think you should always 205 00:10:53,849 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: give your employer a little bit of space as well. 206 00:10:56,770 --> 00:10:59,830 Speaker 1: So don't demand an immediate answer, if you can help it, 207 00:10:59,849 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: because no one likes feeling trapped or put on the spot. 208 00:11:03,010 --> 00:11:05,089 Speaker 1: I often think it's a good thing to bring up 209 00:11:05,090 --> 00:11:07,969 Speaker 1: towards the end, not right at the end, but towards 210 00:11:07,969 --> 00:11:10,650 Speaker 1: the end of the final interview, where you're really going 211 00:11:10,650 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 1: down to the nitty gritty and the contract's on the table, 212 00:11:13,489 --> 00:11:15,750 Speaker 1: and you say, before we get to the 213 00:11:15,799 --> 00:11:18,270 Speaker 1: Signing on the dotted line point of this conversation, I 214 00:11:18,270 --> 00:11:21,549 Speaker 1: just want to have a conversation about flexible work and 215 00:11:21,549 --> 00:11:23,590 Speaker 1: whether or not there might be some possibilities for me 216 00:11:23,590 --> 00:11:25,750 Speaker 1: to do some of my days at home. Could we 217 00:11:25,750 --> 00:11:28,669 Speaker 1: make a time to speak about that next week? And 218 00:11:28,669 --> 00:11:31,229 Speaker 1: that way, the person conducting the interview, if they have to, 219 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:33,030 Speaker 1: can go and talk to some other people, see if 220 00:11:33,030 --> 00:11:35,669 Speaker 1: it's viable, and come back with an answer, rather than 221 00:11:35,669 --> 00:11:37,789 Speaker 1: forcing them to make a call on the spot, because 222 00:11:37,789 --> 00:11:39,539 Speaker 1: I actually think they're more likely to say no. 223 00:11:39,950 --> 00:11:41,569 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's a whole heap of other things to 224 00:11:41,570 --> 00:11:43,299 Speaker 2: consider in this instance. So, 225 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:48,429 Speaker 2: Starting a new job from home will potentially be difficult 226 00:11:48,429 --> 00:11:52,799 Speaker 2: for your career advancement in that organisation anyway. So, think about, 227 00:11:53,450 --> 00:11:55,559 Speaker 2: do you need to work from home now, or is 228 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,919 Speaker 2: this something that you would like to work towards once 229 00:11:58,919 --> 00:12:03,159 Speaker 2: you've established yourself in the organisation? Because in my experience, 230 00:12:03,429 --> 00:12:07,559 Speaker 2: organisations are all moving to some form of working from home. 231 00:12:08,099 --> 00:12:10,659 Speaker 2: Some are slower than others, but the ones that are 232 00:12:10,900 --> 00:12:13,940 Speaker 2: super slow at it are getting there. So it might 233 00:12:13,940 --> 00:12:18,609 Speaker 2: be worth just evaluating it as you go through the process. 234 00:12:18,979 --> 00:12:21,979 Speaker 2: This is an organisation that might, you know, within 6 months, 235 00:12:22,210 --> 00:12:23,140 Speaker 2: completely embrace work. 236 00:12:23,390 --> 00:12:25,510 Speaker 2: From home a couple of days a week, so just 237 00:12:25,510 --> 00:12:27,630 Speaker 2: bear that in mind, but again, Jamila, to go back 238 00:12:27,630 --> 00:12:30,030 Speaker 2: to the original point I made, there is a lot 239 00:12:30,030 --> 00:12:32,909 Speaker 2: of concern at the moment that women who work from 240 00:12:32,909 --> 00:12:38,510 Speaker 2: home will suffer in terms of their advancement and their salary. 241 00:12:39,340 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 2: Because they're not seen if they're working from home. 242 00:12:41,789 --> 00:12:44,530 Speaker 1: So, yeah, you don't get that kind of interaction with 243 00:12:44,530 --> 00:12:47,770 Speaker 1: senior team members that happens not through a formal meeting, 244 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,609 Speaker 1: but through walking past someone while you're getting a coffee 245 00:12:50,609 --> 00:12:53,580 Speaker 1: in the kitchen or standing at a photocopier and you 246 00:12:53,580 --> 00:12:56,130 Speaker 1: strike up a conversation or in the lift. You don't 247 00:12:56,130 --> 00:12:58,609 Speaker 1: get that on Zoom. That's not possible. And you don't 248 00:12:58,609 --> 00:13:01,169 Speaker 1: get that visibility, that line of sight to senior people 249 00:13:01,169 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 1: in the organisation either. 250 00:13:02,929 --> 00:13:06,090 Speaker 2: So it's just something else to consider when you're thinking 251 00:13:06,090 --> 00:13:06,729 Speaker 2: about that. 252 00:13:07,179 --> 00:13:11,020 Speaker 2: Now, what if the interviewer asks about your flexible work 253 00:13:11,020 --> 00:13:11,819 Speaker 2: needs early 254 00:13:11,820 --> 00:13:12,250 Speaker 1: on? 255 00:13:12,750 --> 00:13:15,409 Speaker 1: I think that sounds like a great interviewer. Firstly, uh, 256 00:13:15,419 --> 00:13:17,099 Speaker 1: it sounds like a kind of organisation you want to 257 00:13:17,099 --> 00:13:19,460 Speaker 1: work for, so well done. I think you should be honest. 258 00:13:19,539 --> 00:13:22,179 Speaker 1: I think if you are directly asked that question, use 259 00:13:22,179 --> 00:13:26,219 Speaker 1: that as an opportunity to have a conversation around their 260 00:13:26,219 --> 00:13:29,219 Speaker 1: policies and their practise in this space, and it will 261 00:13:29,219 --> 00:13:31,380 Speaker 1: help you weigh up whether or not they're the right 262 00:13:31,380 --> 00:13:34,179 Speaker 1: employer for you. I also think it's still worth doing 263 00:13:34,179 --> 00:13:37,179 Speaker 1: your research before the interview to know how open to 264 00:13:37,179 --> 00:13:39,619 Speaker 1: flexibility they are going to be. 265 00:13:40,020 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: And I think you yourself, to the extent that is 266 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:47,030 Speaker 1: possible for your own life, should also be open to flexibility. So, 267 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: maybe you don't have to be entirely set on which 268 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,039 Speaker 1: days you do from home and which days you do 269 00:13:52,039 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: in the office. Maybe, as Helen mentioned before, you could 270 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,369 Speaker 1: spend a bit more time in the office early on 271 00:13:57,719 --> 00:14:00,239 Speaker 1: while with an intention to move to flexible work down 272 00:14:00,239 --> 00:14:02,409 Speaker 1: the track, but while you're settling in, you're spending more 273 00:14:02,409 --> 00:14:07,359 Speaker 1: time around your colleagues. Or perhaps you could start early 274 00:14:07,359 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: some days, but not every day. 275 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,070 Speaker 1: Usually there is some kind of give in everyone's schedule, 276 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,349 Speaker 1: and if there is absolutely none in yours, that is OK, 277 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: but make sure that you're really clear about that from 278 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:20,179 Speaker 1: the beginning. 279 00:14:20,679 --> 00:14:23,900 Speaker 2: One extra point to that is, there's often, in my experience, 280 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 2: a bit of a difference between the recruiter or the 281 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:32,270 Speaker 2: HR people and culture representative in the first phase. They 282 00:14:32,270 --> 00:14:36,130 Speaker 2: are more likely to be on the company message around 283 00:14:36,130 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 2: flexible work and working from home. 284 00:14:38,380 --> 00:14:41,330 Speaker 2: When you go from that phase of the interview to 285 00:14:41,739 --> 00:14:44,369 Speaker 2: the boss of the team that you'll be working in, 286 00:14:44,799 --> 00:14:49,890 Speaker 2: he or she might have a slightly different understanding or preference. 287 00:14:50,179 --> 00:14:52,979 Speaker 2: It's a nuance, just be aware of that. So if 288 00:14:52,979 --> 00:14:54,940 Speaker 2: you get a really strong answer from the head of 289 00:14:54,940 --> 00:14:57,859 Speaker 2: people and culture, or the head of the recruitment company that, yeah, yeah, 290 00:14:57,979 --> 00:14:59,900 Speaker 2: this company's amazing, flexible work, great. 291 00:15:01,039 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 2: Just be aware that then when you meet the person 292 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,700 Speaker 2: whose team you're joining, they will have a certain amount 293 00:15:07,700 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 2: of carriage about who they hire and the sorts of 294 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 2: practises that their team, 295 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:16,359 Speaker 2: Adhere to, particularly in super big organisations, and it might 296 00:15:16,359 --> 00:15:19,359 Speaker 2: be at odds with what you got told. So be 297 00:15:19,359 --> 00:15:26,229 Speaker 2: alive to any differences or nuance or shifting in that space, 298 00:15:26,239 --> 00:15:27,929 Speaker 2: because that can be uncomfortable. 299 00:15:28,679 --> 00:15:30,559 Speaker 1: And finally, if you're having a conversation. 300 00:15:31,114 --> 00:15:34,864 Speaker 1: With a potential employer, and they seem a little bit hesitant, 301 00:15:34,914 --> 00:15:38,515 Speaker 1: but not entirely. Suggest that you try it. Uh, suggest 302 00:15:38,515 --> 00:15:41,275 Speaker 1: that you do a trial period. Um, if they are 303 00:15:41,275 --> 00:15:43,275 Speaker 1: sort of sitting there going, Oh, you're brand new, I 304 00:15:43,275 --> 00:15:45,434 Speaker 1: don't know much about you. I'm just not confident that 305 00:15:45,434 --> 00:15:47,544 Speaker 1: the work's gonna get done, and they're not saying that, 306 00:15:47,594 --> 00:15:50,234 Speaker 1: but you can tell they're thinking it. Say, could we 307 00:15:50,234 --> 00:15:52,275 Speaker 1: try it out for the 1st 2 months? And if 308 00:15:52,275 --> 00:15:54,075 Speaker 1: it doesn't work, I'm happy to come into the office 309 00:15:54,075 --> 00:15:56,914 Speaker 1: full time. Because you know you, back yourself and know 310 00:15:56,914 --> 00:15:58,755 Speaker 1: that you can prove that you can do it your way. 311 00:15:59,390 --> 00:16:02,710 Speaker 2: Great. So, in summary, Jamila, tips for having the conversation. 312 00:16:03,299 --> 00:16:07,179 Speaker 1: Be clear, be confident, and be prepared to compromise. Even 313 00:16:07,179 --> 00:16:10,809 Speaker 1: if you feel like flexibility is something that you must have, 314 00:16:11,059 --> 00:16:14,979 Speaker 1: there are different options within the banner of flexibility. So 315 00:16:14,979 --> 00:16:18,020 Speaker 1: be open to move yourself, as well as recognising that 316 00:16:18,020 --> 00:16:19,700 Speaker 1: you're asking them to move too. 317 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: Be really clear about how you're going to manage your 318 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:27,679 Speaker 1: workload within that flexibility. So, this employer ultimately wants the 319 00:16:27,679 --> 00:16:30,159 Speaker 1: job to get done. They want the tasks allocated to 320 00:16:30,159 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: get finished and to get finished on time and get 321 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,239 Speaker 1: finished effectively and efficiently. So you've got to be able 322 00:16:35,239 --> 00:16:38,229 Speaker 1: to prove and make the case that you can do that. And, 323 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: as mentioned, consider a trial period if maybe it doesn't 324 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: feel like you're convincing them. 325 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 2: And always put yourself in the shoes of your employer, 326 00:16:46,369 --> 00:16:49,849 Speaker 2: because that will help convince your employer that you are 327 00:16:49,849 --> 00:16:52,119 Speaker 2: part of the team and are interested in, 328 00:16:52,950 --> 00:16:55,979 Speaker 2: Pursuing the goals that they have, as well as your 329 00:16:55,979 --> 00:16:59,940 Speaker 1: own. Yeah, it's a negotiation, and any negotiation is not 330 00:16:59,940 --> 00:17:03,020 Speaker 1: you versus them. It's a collaboration as well. You're working 331 00:17:03,020 --> 00:17:04,899 Speaker 1: together to get to an outcome that works for everyone. 332 00:17:05,060 --> 00:17:06,649 Speaker 1: So it doesn't have to be you versus them. 333 00:17:06,900 --> 00:17:08,579 Speaker 2: And no now doesn't mean no in the future. 334 00:17:11,300 --> 00:17:15,419 Speaker 1: Shortlisted is produced by Future Women's Jobs Academy. To apply 335 00:17:15,420 --> 00:17:21,379 Speaker 1: to join, head to jobsacademy.uwomen.com or go to Futurewomen.com to 336 00:17:21,380 --> 00:17:23,329 Speaker 1: become a future women member today.