1 00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:03,789 Speaker 1: Shortlisted is brought to you by Future Women's Jobs Academy. 2 00:00:04,079 --> 00:00:07,190 Speaker 1: Getting back to work after a career break isn't easy. 3 00:00:07,510 --> 00:00:11,319 Speaker 1: Future Women's Jobs Academy is a free online programme supported 4 00:00:11,319 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: by the Australian government. It's proven to increase confidence and 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:22,870 Speaker 1: connect women with meaningful and flexible jobs. Apply today at jobsacademy.uwomen.com. 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,229 Speaker 1: We'll support you to find the right job and thrive. 7 00:00:29,170 --> 00:00:31,770 Speaker 1: Nothing makes a person go weak at the knees quite 8 00:00:31,770 --> 00:00:36,449 Speaker 1: like a job interview. Enter shortlisted. A podcast by future 9 00:00:36,450 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: women where Helen McCabe and I hold your virtual hand, 10 00:00:40,330 --> 00:00:43,279 Speaker 1: walking with you every step of the way, right to 11 00:00:43,279 --> 00:00:46,810 Speaker 1: the interview door and straight onto the shortlist. 12 00:00:47,610 --> 00:00:51,290 Speaker 1: In this episode, we will help you master the uncomfortable 13 00:00:51,290 --> 00:00:57,119 Speaker 1: art of selling yourself. We're taught from childhood that modesty 14 00:00:57,119 --> 00:01:00,759 Speaker 1: is a virtue, but job interviews are not the place 15 00:01:00,759 --> 00:01:04,970 Speaker 1: to talk down your achievements. Let's learn how to take 16 00:01:04,970 --> 00:01:08,300 Speaker 1: credit for your wins, speak to your strengths, show off 17 00:01:08,300 --> 00:01:11,180 Speaker 1: your talents, and demonstrate your potential. 18 00:01:12,669 --> 00:01:15,389 Speaker 2: I think this is possibly one of the hardest things 19 00:01:15,389 --> 00:01:19,510 Speaker 2: for even quite confident women to do. How do you 20 00:01:19,510 --> 00:01:20,779 Speaker 2: feel about selling yourself? 21 00:01:21,599 --> 00:01:22,279 Speaker 1: I 22 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,550 Speaker 1: Feel if you asked me straight out, could you sell 23 00:01:26,550 --> 00:01:29,489 Speaker 1: yourself in a job interview now, I would feel really uncomfortable. 24 00:01:29,599 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: I would feel uncomfortable doing it on the spot like 25 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: a trained performing seal or something like that. I would 26 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,110 Speaker 1: struggle to know how to describe, 27 00:01:39,620 --> 00:01:42,179 Speaker 1: Who I am and my skill set and what I 28 00:01:42,180 --> 00:01:45,260 Speaker 1: would bring to an organisation without any preparation. Having said that, 29 00:01:45,379 --> 00:01:48,449 Speaker 1: I feel like generally, without being put on the spot, 30 00:01:48,540 --> 00:01:50,459 Speaker 1: I probably can do it quite well. Like, I think 31 00:01:50,459 --> 00:01:53,739 Speaker 1: in conversations, I'm quite good at pointing to what I'm 32 00:01:53,739 --> 00:01:56,739 Speaker 1: better at, and I'm generally a confident person, but there 33 00:01:56,739 --> 00:01:58,690 Speaker 1: is something about being put on the spot like that 34 00:01:58,699 --> 00:02:00,300 Speaker 1: that makes me feel icky. 35 00:02:01,629 --> 00:02:05,919 Speaker 2: Yes, and your natural tendency, or most people's natural tendency 36 00:02:05,919 --> 00:02:09,859 Speaker 2: is to rely on their CV, which may not be 37 00:02:10,020 --> 00:02:13,910 Speaker 2: the right call, particularly when you're applying or going for 38 00:02:13,910 --> 00:02:17,750 Speaker 2: a job where you've had a career break. So, first 39 00:02:17,750 --> 00:02:22,389 Speaker 2: things first, studies show that women, as you know, are 40 00:02:22,389 --> 00:02:27,619 Speaker 2: far less likely to promote themselves until they are overqualified 41 00:02:27,619 --> 00:02:29,229 Speaker 2: or over-prepared. 42 00:02:29,779 --> 00:02:35,479 Speaker 2: Or worse, they undersell their achievements and abilities. You wrote 43 00:02:35,479 --> 00:02:40,050 Speaker 2: an entire book about this phenomenon called Not Just Lucky, 44 00:02:40,500 --> 00:02:42,809 Speaker 2: but let's break it down. We know women are far 45 00:02:42,809 --> 00:02:47,050 Speaker 2: less likely to promote themselves. That's been something that almost 46 00:02:47,050 --> 00:02:51,500 Speaker 2: every employer talks to us about. It's a common theme. 47 00:02:51,779 --> 00:02:56,300 Speaker 2: Is that being better understood now, or do you think, 48 00:02:56,889 --> 00:02:59,649 Speaker 2: A woman going into an interview today still needs to 49 00:02:59,649 --> 00:03:07,210 Speaker 2: be aware that she should not undersell herself because it 50 00:03:07,210 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 2: won't get picked up. 51 00:03:09,169 --> 00:03:13,300 Speaker 1: I think the idea that women are socialised as girls 52 00:03:13,300 --> 00:03:16,580 Speaker 1: and as adult women to be modest in order to 53 00:03:16,580 --> 00:03:19,978 Speaker 1: be likeable, uh, to be nice and make everyone else comfortable, 54 00:03:20,059 --> 00:03:23,259 Speaker 1: which means not necessarily being confident and asserting yourself and 55 00:03:23,258 --> 00:03:24,059 Speaker 1: your skill set. 56 00:03:24,589 --> 00:03:26,589 Speaker 1: I think we are becoming more aware of that being 57 00:03:26,589 --> 00:03:28,550 Speaker 1: a problem, but I don't think that plays out in 58 00:03:28,550 --> 00:03:31,449 Speaker 1: a job interview context. I think in a job interview context, 59 00:03:31,490 --> 00:03:34,508 Speaker 1: most of the time, there's just employers sitting across from 60 00:03:34,508 --> 00:03:37,229 Speaker 1: you at the table and expecting you to sell yourself. 61 00:03:37,309 --> 00:03:40,100 Speaker 1: And if you can't do that, you're going to struggle. 62 00:03:40,350 --> 00:03:46,259 Speaker 1: And it makes me enormously frustrated, because I think women, 63 00:03:46,889 --> 00:03:50,649 Speaker 1: Underestimate their abilities because of how they are raised. It's 64 00:03:50,649 --> 00:03:53,289 Speaker 1: not your fault, you're not doing anything wrong when you 65 00:03:53,289 --> 00:03:55,449 Speaker 1: do that. That is how the world has taught you 66 00:03:55,449 --> 00:03:58,610 Speaker 1: to behave, and then we punish you through the career 67 00:03:58,610 --> 00:04:02,979 Speaker 1: system and through employment and through job interviews for doing 68 00:04:02,979 --> 00:04:06,369 Speaker 1: exactly what you've been raised to do. Unfortunately, 69 00:04:06,820 --> 00:04:08,759 Speaker 1: In the short term, there's not a lot we can 70 00:04:08,759 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: do about that other than push through. In the longer term, 71 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: I think there's work for us to do around sexism 72 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,399 Speaker 1: and expectations of how women behave and whether or not 73 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:22,589 Speaker 1: people who overly self-promote are even doing the best thing. 74 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,609 Speaker 1: But in the near term, in terms of that job 75 00:04:25,609 --> 00:04:29,670 Speaker 1: interview you've got coming up in a day or a week, unfortunately, 76 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,708 Speaker 1: we've gotta find a way to push through the uncomfortableness 77 00:04:33,709 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: of not wanting to self-promote. 78 00:04:35,750 --> 00:04:39,410 Speaker 1: And find a way for you to feel confident, saying 79 00:04:39,410 --> 00:04:41,809 Speaker 1: who you are and why you would be valuable to 80 00:04:41,809 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: an organisation. 81 00:04:43,290 --> 00:04:47,570 Speaker 2: So to be super clear, you will not be marked 82 00:04:47,570 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 2: up if you, 83 00:04:50,928 --> 00:04:55,049 Speaker 2: down your achievements in an interview. You might be marked 84 00:04:55,049 --> 00:04:59,289 Speaker 2: up in some other environment at some other point in time, 85 00:04:59,369 --> 00:05:02,169 Speaker 2: even though Jamila wrote a whole book to stop you 86 00:05:02,170 --> 00:05:06,488 Speaker 2: from doing that, but you will not benefit from playing 87 00:05:06,488 --> 00:05:08,670 Speaker 2: down your achievements in the job interview. 88 00:05:09,130 --> 00:05:10,529 Speaker 1: Full stop. Exactly. 89 00:05:10,899 --> 00:05:15,709 Speaker 1: And if you are concerned that perhaps this is just 90 00:05:15,709 --> 00:05:19,019 Speaker 1: a you thing and not an every one thing, think again, 91 00:05:19,269 --> 00:05:22,950 Speaker 1: because there are numerous studies have shown again and again 92 00:05:22,950 --> 00:05:25,149 Speaker 1: and again that when women are asked to estimate their 93 00:05:25,149 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: own abilities at a new task, and men are asked 94 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:28,119 Speaker 1: to estate. 95 00:05:28,570 --> 00:05:33,220 Speaker 1: Women routinely underestimate themselves. Uh, women will even routinely underestimate 96 00:05:33,220 --> 00:05:37,429 Speaker 1: themselves after they've completed the task and completed it well. Uh, 97 00:05:37,500 --> 00:05:39,779 Speaker 1: if you are someone who doesn't suffer from that, if 98 00:05:39,779 --> 00:05:41,859 Speaker 1: you are someone who is a really confident person and 99 00:05:41,859 --> 00:05:45,019 Speaker 1: really good at selling yourself, brilliant, come on this podcast 100 00:05:45,019 --> 00:05:48,099 Speaker 1: next time. But for the vast majority of you who 101 00:05:48,100 --> 00:05:50,500 Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable about self-promotion, 102 00:05:50,910 --> 00:05:53,589 Speaker 1: This episode is for you, I suspect. And probably worth 103 00:05:53,589 --> 00:05:57,179 Speaker 1: pointing out, Helen, that women who face multiple barriers to 104 00:05:57,178 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 1: success in workplaces, uh, women of colour, indigenous women, older women, 105 00:06:01,269 --> 00:06:05,220 Speaker 1: women with disabilities tend to feel this doubly so or more. 106 00:06:05,428 --> 00:06:07,109 Speaker 1: It's even harder to sell yourself. 107 00:06:07,470 --> 00:06:09,899 Speaker 1: If that's been your experience of life, because you've been 108 00:06:09,899 --> 00:06:11,109 Speaker 1: expected not to. OK, 109 00:06:11,269 --> 00:06:13,390 Speaker 2: so we've got the message. This is not the time 110 00:06:13,390 --> 00:06:15,790 Speaker 2: to play down your achievements. No, it's the time to 111 00:06:15,790 --> 00:06:18,549 Speaker 2: talk them up. And in fact, Jan, you know, how 112 00:06:18,549 --> 00:06:23,589 Speaker 2: do you feel about maybe overstating your achievements? 113 00:06:24,890 --> 00:06:26,049 Speaker 1: I think you should be careful about that. 114 00:06:26,980 --> 00:06:29,570 Speaker 1: It's just the opposite of everything I just said. But 115 00:06:30,100 --> 00:06:34,140 Speaker 1: I think you want to present your achievements in the 116 00:06:34,140 --> 00:06:38,399 Speaker 1: best possible light. I think it's the same way as 117 00:06:38,399 --> 00:06:40,769 Speaker 1: how you get dressed for an interview. You wanna look 118 00:06:40,769 --> 00:06:43,140 Speaker 1: like the best possible version of you, but you wanna 119 00:06:43,140 --> 00:06:45,540 Speaker 1: look like you. You wanna look like the hair and 120 00:06:45,540 --> 00:06:48,018 Speaker 1: makeup you usually wear. You wanna wear the clothes you 121 00:06:48,019 --> 00:06:51,220 Speaker 1: usually wear. Still be you, but show it in the 122 00:06:51,220 --> 00:06:54,459 Speaker 1: best possible light. Don't stray into the territory of 123 00:06:55,100 --> 00:06:58,260 Speaker 1: Well, lying. Don't, don't stray into the territory of suggesting 124 00:06:58,260 --> 00:07:01,500 Speaker 1: that you can do something or you have experience doing 125 00:07:01,500 --> 00:07:04,859 Speaker 1: something that you don't. That is not helpful, that is 126 00:07:04,859 --> 00:07:07,899 Speaker 1: not useful, and you will get found out. And if anything, 127 00:07:07,940 --> 00:07:10,260 Speaker 1: I think it undermines your confidence in an interview further 128 00:07:10,260 --> 00:07:11,809 Speaker 1: because you still have to be scared about something else, 129 00:07:11,910 --> 00:07:14,089 Speaker 1: which is that someone's gonna catch you on your lie. 130 00:07:14,299 --> 00:07:16,970 Speaker 2: Yes, but there is always a circumstance where you could, 131 00:07:17,540 --> 00:07:21,420 Speaker 2: Present it in in a more positive light or a 132 00:07:21,420 --> 00:07:25,339 Speaker 2: more negative light. Yes. And so what we're saying is 133 00:07:25,739 --> 00:07:29,179 Speaker 2: don't choose the negative, choose the positive. Like if you've 134 00:07:29,179 --> 00:07:31,179 Speaker 2: got a choice between, well, I don't know, there was 135 00:07:31,179 --> 00:07:33,380 Speaker 2: someone else around and he did it and she did it, 136 00:07:33,420 --> 00:07:36,470 Speaker 2: and you know, I was, no, no, no, you did it, 137 00:07:36,859 --> 00:07:40,019 Speaker 2: don't kind of er into the side of being too 138 00:07:40,019 --> 00:07:44,579 Speaker 2: cautious on how you present your achievements. But be generous, 139 00:07:44,589 --> 00:07:46,179 Speaker 2: that's right, that's it's a delicate balance, but. 140 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,700 Speaker 2: It's worth highlighting. Right. So, 141 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: let's go to a few tips, because I think this 142 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,309 Speaker 1: is a really hard thing to nail. So, first tip 143 00:07:55,309 --> 00:07:58,739 Speaker 1: is to accept that this feels awkward and this feels unnatural. 144 00:07:58,950 --> 00:08:02,029 Speaker 1: But to build the confidence that you need to perform 145 00:08:02,029 --> 00:08:04,940 Speaker 1: in a job interview, you gotta do some practise in 146 00:08:05,170 --> 00:08:08,829 Speaker 1: speaking about yourself in that really positive light Helen just mentioned. 147 00:08:08,950 --> 00:08:11,029 Speaker 1: So the first one is, be bold. 148 00:08:11,679 --> 00:08:15,799 Speaker 1: Being bold doesn't mean bragging, but it means saying that 149 00:08:15,799 --> 00:08:18,239 Speaker 1: you're good at what you're good at and owning the 150 00:08:18,239 --> 00:08:22,549 Speaker 1: things that you have achieved. Try to use descriptive language 151 00:08:22,839 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: that includes words like strong. You weren't just a leader, 152 00:08:25,959 --> 00:08:28,359 Speaker 1: you were a strong leader. You weren't just someone who 153 00:08:28,359 --> 00:08:31,399 Speaker 1: was knowledgeable, you were an expert. You weren't someone who 154 00:08:31,399 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: did a lot of that particular thing, because you got 155 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,689 Speaker 1: stuck there. You became a specialist. You are highly capable. 156 00:08:38,044 --> 00:08:42,255 Speaker 1: You are successful. These kind of words really add a 157 00:08:42,255 --> 00:08:45,895 Speaker 1: levity to your achievements, and I have no doubt that 158 00:08:45,895 --> 00:08:48,694 Speaker 1: they are words that match your due, that you are 159 00:08:48,695 --> 00:08:51,015 Speaker 1: as good as that. The number of times, Helen, I 160 00:08:51,015 --> 00:08:55,853 Speaker 1: have worked with particularly younger employees or employees who have 161 00:08:55,854 --> 00:08:58,934 Speaker 1: come back after having children or a career break, and 162 00:08:58,934 --> 00:09:01,135 Speaker 1: there is a tendency to say, Oh, no, look, I, 163 00:09:01,255 --> 00:09:03,335 Speaker 1: I've done a bit of that, and you look back 164 00:09:03,335 --> 00:09:04,164 Speaker 1: at their history. 165 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:06,919 Speaker 1: And that's all they've done for the last 2 years, 166 00:09:07,049 --> 00:09:08,729 Speaker 1: and it's like no mate, that is, that is a 167 00:09:08,729 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: level of specialty that almost no one else will have. 168 00:09:12,210 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: So own that specialty, own what you've done. 169 00:09:16,030 --> 00:09:22,549 Speaker 2: Use words like lead, managed, facilitated, rather than helped or 170 00:09:22,549 --> 00:09:28,570 Speaker 2: worked on. Avoid language that undermines, downplays or minimises your skills. 171 00:09:29,229 --> 00:09:30,770 Speaker 2: Words like just, 172 00:09:30,950 --> 00:09:31,150 Speaker 1: yeah. 173 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:33,909 Speaker 1: And we can, we can all, like, just is such 174 00:09:33,909 --> 00:09:37,630 Speaker 1: a small inconsequential word, but put it in front of 175 00:09:37,630 --> 00:09:40,630 Speaker 1: other words, and it becomes really powerful in not a 176 00:09:40,630 --> 00:09:43,989 Speaker 1: good way. So, imagine the number of people you've met 177 00:09:43,989 --> 00:09:46,419 Speaker 1: in your life who have said, Oh, I'm just a mom. 178 00:09:46,710 --> 00:09:49,309 Speaker 1: And they are an incredible parent who is juggling all 179 00:09:49,309 --> 00:09:52,820 Speaker 1: sorts of things and are literally raising a human being. 180 00:09:53,070 --> 00:09:54,780 Speaker 1: That's not a word that needs 181 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:59,210 Speaker 1: Just, right? I'll be there in just a minute. That, 182 00:09:59,419 --> 00:10:03,330 Speaker 1: that deserves a just, but you're not just a receptionist. 183 00:10:03,500 --> 00:10:07,059 Speaker 1: You are not just a teacher. You are not just 184 00:10:07,059 --> 00:10:12,010 Speaker 1: a APS Level 6. You are who you are. Just 185 00:10:12,010 --> 00:10:14,579 Speaker 1: cut the just out. Just cut the just out, because 186 00:10:14,580 --> 00:10:18,140 Speaker 1: whatever you do is valuable and important, and if you 187 00:10:18,140 --> 00:10:20,700 Speaker 1: use minimising language like that, that is how you will 188 00:10:20,700 --> 00:10:21,409 Speaker 1: be perceived. 189 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:28,919 Speaker 2: Be authentic. Avoid too many buzzwords or generic phrases and responses. 190 00:10:29,119 --> 00:10:30,969 Speaker 2: Don't use the words, and I, I banged on it 191 00:10:30,969 --> 00:10:35,189 Speaker 2: a bit in earlier podcasts around the same words that 192 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,359 Speaker 2: every other woman's gonna use in terms of their sort 193 00:10:37,359 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 2: of leadership skills, the, you know, the collaborative, the empathetic, 194 00:10:40,719 --> 00:10:43,079 Speaker 2: they're good things, don't get me wrong, but try to 195 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,630 Speaker 2: use words that better describe you and who you are, 196 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,718 Speaker 2: rather than the words that you think you should say. 197 00:10:50,150 --> 00:10:52,190 Speaker 2: Because you'll stand out. Everyone else will use those words, 198 00:10:52,309 --> 00:10:55,909 Speaker 2: so choose words that are more accurately reflect you. When 199 00:10:55,909 --> 00:11:01,309 Speaker 2: preparing responses, tailor your answers to really show what you 200 00:11:01,309 --> 00:11:03,989 Speaker 2: bring to the table, which is kind of saying what 201 00:11:03,989 --> 00:11:06,190 Speaker 2: I just said around just using the same words as 202 00:11:06,190 --> 00:11:06,979 Speaker 2: everybody else. 203 00:11:07,469 --> 00:11:10,020 Speaker 1: I think a really good example of that, Helen, is, 204 00:11:10,580 --> 00:11:13,179 Speaker 1: One thing I hear so often is that, oh, I've 205 00:11:13,179 --> 00:11:16,419 Speaker 1: got really good communication skills. And don't get me wrong, 206 00:11:16,510 --> 00:11:18,968 Speaker 1: I am, I am often looking for someone with great 207 00:11:18,969 --> 00:11:21,419 Speaker 1: communication skills. Like, that is something I, I look for 208 00:11:21,419 --> 00:11:25,250 Speaker 1: as an employer. But give me something more specific than that, 209 00:11:25,260 --> 00:11:28,340 Speaker 1: because communication's a really broad term. So talk to me 210 00:11:28,340 --> 00:11:32,669 Speaker 1: about the fact that you are someone who writes really quality, 211 00:11:32,780 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: plain English, accessible, clear, 212 00:11:35,969 --> 00:11:38,570 Speaker 1: Copy. Like, you are someone who writes in a way 213 00:11:38,570 --> 00:11:41,609 Speaker 1: that everyone can understand, that brings people to the table 214 00:11:41,609 --> 00:11:44,770 Speaker 1: that doesn't make them feel excluded. Or are you someone 215 00:11:44,770 --> 00:11:47,609 Speaker 1: who presents really beautifully? Are you someone who is good 216 00:11:47,609 --> 00:11:50,449 Speaker 1: at bringing a room with you? Are you someone who 217 00:11:50,450 --> 00:11:54,409 Speaker 1: speaks publicly with impact and influence, and you have a 218 00:11:54,409 --> 00:11:58,330 Speaker 1: beautiful mix of humour and authority? Tell me that. Don't 219 00:11:58,330 --> 00:12:00,489 Speaker 1: just tell me that you've got great communication skills. 220 00:12:01,219 --> 00:12:03,719 Speaker 2: People skills. I've got great people skills. What does that mean? 221 00:12:03,859 --> 00:12:05,210 Speaker 2: What does that mean? 222 00:12:05,539 --> 00:12:08,340 Speaker 1: Don't understand, don't understand. Like, does that mean that you 223 00:12:08,340 --> 00:12:11,109 Speaker 1: have worked with people before? Great, most of us have. 224 00:12:11,409 --> 00:12:11,979 Speaker 1: Most of us have. 225 00:12:12,099 --> 00:12:15,689 Speaker 2: My other one is, I really like writing. Yeah. I mean, 226 00:12:15,739 --> 00:12:20,419 Speaker 2: it raises the same question, right? Do you like writing fiction, non-fiction, uh, 227 00:12:20,539 --> 00:12:27,260 Speaker 2: press releases, bios, Instagram, reports, yeah, and actually lots of 228 00:12:27,260 --> 00:12:28,830 Speaker 2: people really like writing. Yeah. 229 00:12:29,380 --> 00:12:31,739 Speaker 1: So, uh, don't be afraid of showing who you are. 230 00:12:31,789 --> 00:12:33,299 Speaker 1: And I think there might be a fear, Helen, that 231 00:12:33,299 --> 00:12:36,890 Speaker 1: when you start to get too technical or intricate or 232 00:12:36,890 --> 00:12:39,219 Speaker 1: specific in this space, that you're then ruling out the 233 00:12:39,219 --> 00:12:41,419 Speaker 1: rest of it, right? You don't have to be so 234 00:12:41,419 --> 00:12:45,608 Speaker 1: broad that you're not interesting. Be specific about who you are. 235 00:12:45,900 --> 00:12:48,579 Speaker 1: Prove that those skills are transferable, but 236 00:12:49,099 --> 00:12:52,089 Speaker 1: Be someone who says what you are good at doing, 237 00:12:52,179 --> 00:12:55,210 Speaker 1: and don't be afraid of saying what you're good at. 238 00:12:55,789 --> 00:12:59,500 Speaker 1: For example, I am someone who loves to write. Like, 239 00:12:59,539 --> 00:13:01,579 Speaker 1: that is something I love to do, but I am 240 00:13:01,580 --> 00:13:04,820 Speaker 1: a good, persuasive and opinion writer. And I can apply 241 00:13:04,820 --> 00:13:06,699 Speaker 1: that in a lot of different contexts. I can write 242 00:13:06,700 --> 00:13:08,940 Speaker 1: you an opinion piece for the newspaper. I can help 243 00:13:08,940 --> 00:13:11,260 Speaker 1: write you a very persuasive tender document. 244 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,108 Speaker 1: But if you told me to write an evidence-led scientific report, 245 00:13:15,229 --> 00:13:17,630 Speaker 1: I am not your person. If you told me to 246 00:13:17,630 --> 00:13:21,590 Speaker 1: write a creative response or a story, I am not 247 00:13:21,590 --> 00:13:24,250 Speaker 1: your person. That is not where my skill set is. 248 00:13:24,669 --> 00:13:27,030 Speaker 1: But by being a little bit more specific, rather than 249 00:13:27,030 --> 00:13:30,150 Speaker 1: doing Helen's most hated, I like to write, at least 250 00:13:30,150 --> 00:13:31,989 Speaker 1: I'm telling her more about myself as well as what 251 00:13:31,989 --> 00:13:32,619 Speaker 1: I'm good at. 252 00:13:32,830 --> 00:13:35,030 Speaker 2: And look, and that illustrates that you are actually good 253 00:13:35,030 --> 00:13:35,590 Speaker 2: at writing. 254 00:13:36,099 --> 00:13:38,968 Speaker 2: And that you do have great communication skills. If you say, 255 00:13:39,119 --> 00:13:42,140 Speaker 2: you know, I'm really great at hosting events and public speaking, 256 00:13:42,429 --> 00:13:44,989 Speaker 2: that's quite specific and quite helpful. But if you just 257 00:13:44,989 --> 00:13:49,710 Speaker 2: say communication skills, I am immediately thinking, no, you're not, 258 00:13:49,989 --> 00:13:53,500 Speaker 2: because you don't know actually what that you can't elaborate, 259 00:13:53,549 --> 00:13:56,510 Speaker 1: yes. There is another bias, Helen, that I think is 260 00:13:56,510 --> 00:13:59,270 Speaker 1: worth us touching on, and that is that. 261 00:13:59,820 --> 00:14:02,390 Speaker 1: You've mentioned, I think, a little bit in passing throughout 262 00:14:02,390 --> 00:14:04,799 Speaker 1: this podcast, the idea that women tend to use words 263 00:14:04,799 --> 00:14:08,359 Speaker 1: like collaborative, or good at working in a team, or 264 00:14:08,359 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: being empathetic. Those are what we call soft skills, and 265 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: I hate that that's what they're called. We should get 266 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 1: a new name. But for the sake of everyone understanding, 267 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,239 Speaker 1: they're often called soft skills, whereas men tend to be 268 00:14:19,239 --> 00:14:24,059 Speaker 1: associated with harder skills, more technical skills. And I think 269 00:14:24,059 --> 00:14:24,989 Speaker 1: a lot of us sort of 270 00:14:25,159 --> 00:14:28,619 Speaker 1: Play into that narrative, right? So we play into us being, oh, 271 00:14:28,700 --> 00:14:31,219 Speaker 1: I'm so, I'm not good at numbers. I'm allergic to Excel, 272 00:14:31,340 --> 00:14:34,289 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. Um, if that's you, that's fine. 273 00:14:34,539 --> 00:14:36,789 Speaker 1: No need to say it today, in the job interview. 274 00:14:36,940 --> 00:14:39,719 Speaker 1: Let's leave that later for a dinner party. Don't be 275 00:14:39,719 --> 00:14:43,489 Speaker 1: afraid of talking to your technical skills and also speaking 276 00:14:43,489 --> 00:14:47,210 Speaker 1: about your so-called soft skills in a hard way. You 277 00:14:47,210 --> 00:14:49,020 Speaker 1: don't have to pretend you don't have those skills, cause 278 00:14:49,020 --> 00:14:50,309 Speaker 1: those skills are critical. 279 00:14:50,690 --> 00:14:52,739 Speaker 1: But I can tell you now, there aren't many men 280 00:14:52,739 --> 00:14:55,690 Speaker 1: who are going into an interview and saying, I'm highly empathetic. 281 00:14:55,900 --> 00:14:59,140 Speaker 1: They are going in and saying, I am so good 282 00:14:59,140 --> 00:15:02,340 Speaker 1: at managing a team because I understand people, and I 283 00:15:02,340 --> 00:15:04,950 Speaker 1: have an innate skill of meeting people where they're at 284 00:15:04,950 --> 00:15:08,020 Speaker 1: and being able to bring them with me towards a goal. Like, 285 00:15:08,179 --> 00:15:10,979 Speaker 1: that's people and interpersonal skills, right? That's exactly what we 286 00:15:10,979 --> 00:15:13,780 Speaker 1: were talking about before, but it's just expressed in a 287 00:15:14,059 --> 00:15:16,210 Speaker 1: more useful kind of way. 288 00:15:16,700 --> 00:15:18,570 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're visionary, usually, those men. 289 00:15:18,739 --> 00:15:19,690 Speaker 1: Oh, so visionary. 290 00:15:20,809 --> 00:15:24,030 Speaker 2: Um, absolutely. I, the mix of the soft and the 291 00:15:24,030 --> 00:15:28,309 Speaker 2: hard skills is the perfect mix. So being clear about 292 00:15:28,309 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 2: what your soft skills are and articulating them, but also 293 00:15:32,070 --> 00:15:34,619 Speaker 2: definitely leaning into your hard skills, cause it's the combination 294 00:15:34,619 --> 00:15:37,739 Speaker 2: of the two that is the wow factor in an 295 00:15:37,739 --> 00:15:41,469 Speaker 1: interview. Chances are you probably have an understanding of the 296 00:15:41,469 --> 00:15:45,349 Speaker 1: actual technical, technical skills associated with your role, and I'm 297 00:15:45,349 --> 00:15:47,190 Speaker 1: not gonna go too hard into trying to, 298 00:15:47,530 --> 00:15:50,049 Speaker 1: Enunciate them because I will mess it up for professions 299 00:15:50,049 --> 00:15:53,609 Speaker 1: I don't understand, but if you're a lawyer who has 300 00:15:53,609 --> 00:15:54,719 Speaker 1: a background in 301 00:15:55,070 --> 00:15:58,349 Speaker 1: Mergers and acquisitions, be able to talk to your technical 302 00:15:58,349 --> 00:16:01,460 Speaker 1: skill and ability. If you are a scientist who has 303 00:16:01,460 --> 00:16:05,070 Speaker 1: had a particular research capability in whatever lab, speak to 304 00:16:05,070 --> 00:16:08,940 Speaker 1: that proficiency. If you are a mechanic, speak to that proficiency. 305 00:16:09,150 --> 00:16:12,099 Speaker 1: Do not be afraid of pushing really hard on your 306 00:16:12,099 --> 00:16:15,590 Speaker 1: technical competencies, and that's not just saying I got this 307 00:16:15,590 --> 00:16:17,789 Speaker 1: degree or I got this qualification, but being able to 308 00:16:17,789 --> 00:16:19,989 Speaker 1: speak to how you've used that in practise. 309 00:16:20,849 --> 00:16:23,900 Speaker 2: Can I just raise, um, one thing to be wary about, 310 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:28,030 Speaker 2: and that is too much management speak. Uh, and particularly 311 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,229 Speaker 2: in a CV and online, and then in the interview. So, 312 00:16:32,479 --> 00:16:35,710 Speaker 2: we're talking about being confident in the interview and leaning 313 00:16:35,710 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 2: into your proficiency and not shying away from it. But 314 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 2: equally be a little cautious around overselling, because the world 315 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:47,119 Speaker 2: is a very small place now. 316 00:16:47,630 --> 00:16:53,479 Speaker 2: And even a LinkedIn post can raise question marks around 317 00:16:53,479 --> 00:16:57,090 Speaker 2: whether you've actually completed or done what you said in 318 00:16:57,090 --> 00:17:00,359 Speaker 2: that interview. So, you leave a big footprint in this 319 00:17:00,359 --> 00:17:05,239 Speaker 2: world today, so just be cautious around how you do, 320 00:17:05,609 --> 00:17:10,170 Speaker 2: articulate your skill set and your CV because someone will 321 00:17:10,170 --> 00:17:15,209 Speaker 2: twig if there's any inconsistency in any of your written. 322 00:17:15,829 --> 00:17:17,859 Speaker 2: Um, you know what I'm trying to say, um, 323 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:19,869 Speaker 1: don't lie, folks, just don't lie. 324 00:17:20,079 --> 00:17:22,199 Speaker 2: Well, I, I'm trying to say, I'm trying to actually 325 00:17:22,199 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 2: say two things. I'm trying to say, 326 00:17:25,579 --> 00:17:32,300 Speaker 2: Don't lie, but also don't use tricky language to try 327 00:17:32,300 --> 00:17:38,050 Speaker 2: to oversell as well, causes tricky management language can trigger 328 00:17:38,420 --> 00:17:39,260 Speaker 2: red flags. 329 00:17:39,380 --> 00:17:41,819 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that's true. Am I making sense? Yeah, 330 00:17:41,900 --> 00:17:44,660 Speaker 1: I remember interviewing a guy once who talked about synergies 331 00:17:44,660 --> 00:17:46,780 Speaker 1: and ideation, and I was sitting there going, 332 00:17:47,250 --> 00:17:49,429 Speaker 1: I don't know what you do, or why you're good 333 00:17:49,430 --> 00:17:52,189 Speaker 1: at anything. I don't understand what these words mean in 334 00:17:52,189 --> 00:17:55,420 Speaker 2: this context. Yeah, and I saw a, a CV where 335 00:17:55,709 --> 00:17:58,180 Speaker 2: an MBA was on the CV but in the fine 336 00:17:58,180 --> 00:17:59,420 Speaker 2: print had been deferred. 337 00:17:59,430 --> 00:18:01,099 Speaker 1: Yeah. So not completed, 338 00:18:01,469 --> 00:18:05,260 Speaker 2: so not completed now, or not even started, it was accepted, 339 00:18:05,390 --> 00:18:09,389 Speaker 2: so that kind of thing can be clever, but if 340 00:18:09,390 --> 00:18:11,420 Speaker 2: it gets caught out is, 341 00:18:12,170 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: Don't try to be too 342 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,790 Speaker 2: tricky potentially really damaging when it shouldn't have been, 343 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 1: yeah. 344 00:18:18,619 --> 00:18:21,739 Speaker 1: I think that is excellent advice and it is a 345 00:18:21,739 --> 00:18:24,949 Speaker 1: really fine line between selling yourself and getting to territory 346 00:18:24,949 --> 00:18:29,859 Speaker 1: where you are going dangerously close to an untruth. So 347 00:18:29,859 --> 00:18:32,489 Speaker 1: be cautious about how you express things. 348 00:18:33,099 --> 00:18:36,260 Speaker 1: Helen, I want to talk about value propositions. When you're 349 00:18:36,260 --> 00:18:38,698 Speaker 1: in an interview and you get that first question, and 350 00:18:38,699 --> 00:18:41,170 Speaker 1: there are 100 different versions of it, but it's always 351 00:18:41,420 --> 00:18:44,218 Speaker 1: a version of Tell me about yourself, or introduce yourself, or, 352 00:18:44,380 --> 00:18:46,140 Speaker 1: Here is the kickoff question where you get to say 353 00:18:46,140 --> 00:18:48,939 Speaker 1: who you are. Don't waste it. Don't use that as 354 00:18:48,939 --> 00:18:51,969 Speaker 1: a warm up till you get to the real questions. 355 00:18:52,260 --> 00:18:56,050 Speaker 1: Use it as an opportunity to start practising with selling yourself. 356 00:18:56,140 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: And this is something you can actually 357 00:18:57,959 --> 00:19:01,469 Speaker 1: prepare for really distinctly. Like, you can have a spiel 358 00:19:01,469 --> 00:19:03,619 Speaker 1: that you have given time and time and time again, 359 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,099 Speaker 1: that can be your first answer to the first question 360 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,198 Speaker 1: in a job interview. Aim for something that's around a 361 00:19:09,199 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: minute long, don't go on a whole lot. Take some 362 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:17,089 Speaker 1: time to prepare and rehearse, and have a narrative that 363 00:19:17,089 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: says who you are today, professionally and what you're passionate about. 364 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 1: The kinds of things you've done in your past that 365 00:19:25,410 --> 00:19:28,410 Speaker 1: make you relevant for this job today, and what you're 366 00:19:28,410 --> 00:19:31,260 Speaker 1: hoping to achieve into the future and how that fits 367 00:19:31,260 --> 00:19:34,010 Speaker 1: with the organisation that you're going for a job in. So, 368 00:19:34,050 --> 00:19:36,329 Speaker 1: think about it as the present, who you are now, 369 00:19:36,489 --> 00:19:39,250 Speaker 1: the past, what you've done to get here, and the future, 370 00:19:39,260 --> 00:19:40,849 Speaker 1: who you're going to be for them and how you'll 371 00:19:40,849 --> 00:19:43,688 Speaker 1: deliver for them. If you've got a short, sharp version 372 00:19:43,689 --> 00:19:46,239 Speaker 1: of that, that's a really lovely way to start an interview. 373 00:19:47,099 --> 00:19:49,020 Speaker 2: OK, this is super unfair, but could you do it 374 00:19:49,020 --> 00:19:49,420 Speaker 2: right now? 375 00:19:51,619 --> 00:19:55,540 Speaker 1: OK, yes. See this is why you have to prepare. 376 00:19:56,810 --> 00:19:59,819 Speaker 2: I we're all, we all have self doubt. No, no, 377 00:20:00,369 --> 00:20:01,689 Speaker 2: could you do it quickly? 378 00:20:02,140 --> 00:20:02,689 Speaker 1: Uh. 379 00:20:03,859 --> 00:20:06,630 Speaker 1: Maybe. What's, what job am I going for? No, 380 00:20:06,890 --> 00:20:08,819 Speaker 2: here's the question, tell me about yourself. 381 00:20:09,130 --> 00:20:10,650 Speaker 1: But I don't know what job I'm going for. No, 382 00:20:11,569 --> 00:20:13,089 Speaker 2: you're not going for a job, you're just telling me 383 00:20:13,089 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 2: about yourself. OK. You're overthinking it as always. 384 00:20:17,130 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 1: I am. 385 00:20:18,780 --> 00:20:20,819 Speaker 1: My name's Jamila, and at the moment, I'm working with 386 00:20:20,819 --> 00:20:25,579 Speaker 1: an organisation called Future Women, where I am doing work 387 00:20:25,579 --> 00:20:28,209 Speaker 1: over a really broad number of areas that I love. 388 00:20:28,420 --> 00:20:32,300 Speaker 1: I am leading teams, I am involved in the creative 389 00:20:32,300 --> 00:20:37,060 Speaker 1: content-making process, and in some of the strategic business decisions. Previously, 390 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,979 Speaker 1: I've worked in government and the media, as well as 391 00:20:39,979 --> 00:20:42,739 Speaker 1: taking some time off to have my son write some 392 00:20:42,739 --> 00:20:46,060 Speaker 1: books and do some work that was more public facing. 393 00:20:46,689 --> 00:20:48,659 Speaker 1: And into the future, I want to be able to 394 00:20:48,660 --> 00:20:51,469 Speaker 1: answer this question a whole lot better than I am now, Helen, 395 00:20:51,619 --> 00:20:54,099 Speaker 1: so that I can impress you and earn lots of money. 396 00:20:54,579 --> 00:20:55,479 Speaker 2: That was pretty good. 397 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:57,319 Speaker 2: That was pretty good. I was looking 398 00:20:57,319 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: to the 399 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,079 Speaker 2: producers because I was actually gonna ask the producers to 400 00:21:01,079 --> 00:21:02,599 Speaker 2: do it too. I was gonna see whether they could 401 00:21:02,599 --> 00:21:05,079 Speaker 2: do it. No, it's look, the point we're doing is 402 00:21:05,079 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 2: this is hard, right? It's hard, um, and Jamila is 403 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,400 Speaker 2: a communications expert. Like when she says, you know, we 404 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,599 Speaker 2: don't ask about are you good at communicating, she's like the, 405 00:21:13,609 --> 00:21:14,959 Speaker 2: the best in the business and. 406 00:21:15,459 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 2: That broad, those broad phrase actually applies to Jamilaris. So 407 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 2: that's how hard it is. 408 00:21:21,729 --> 00:21:23,699 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I, I think that really comes back to 409 00:21:23,699 --> 00:21:26,060 Speaker 1: that idea that you've gotta practise that, because you can't, 410 00:21:26,069 --> 00:21:28,729 Speaker 1: it is not something you can do well off the cuff. 411 00:21:29,089 --> 00:21:31,369 Speaker 1: Or you start kind of jabbering on. Like I was 412 00:21:31,369 --> 00:21:32,770 Speaker 1: about to say, and I have a husband and a 413 00:21:32,770 --> 00:21:36,420 Speaker 1: son and a really cute puppy. Like, yes, great, fun 414 00:21:36,420 --> 00:21:38,530 Speaker 1: knowledge about me, not for that moment. 415 00:21:39,380 --> 00:21:41,290 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I reckon you can get it right down 416 00:21:41,290 --> 00:21:44,099 Speaker 2: to about 20 seconds if you try hard. So, I'm 417 00:21:44,099 --> 00:21:47,599 Speaker 2: Helen McCabe. I'm the founder and managing director of Future Women. 418 00:21:47,770 --> 00:21:50,250 Speaker 2: I've had many media jobs, the most famous of which 419 00:21:50,250 --> 00:21:53,130 Speaker 2: was editor in chief of Women's Weekly, and I am 420 00:21:53,130 --> 00:21:57,410 Speaker 2: here to build a successful business to assist women in 421 00:21:57,410 --> 00:21:59,929 Speaker 2: whatever part of their working life they need assistance in. 422 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:00,329 Speaker 2: That was 423 00:22:00,329 --> 00:22:01,930 Speaker 1: good. Were you thinking of that while I was talking? 424 00:22:02,329 --> 00:22:04,290 Speaker 1: You got longer. Yes. I 425 00:22:04,290 --> 00:22:08,129 Speaker 2: cheated. But that's how, that's, that's the kind of thing 426 00:22:08,130 --> 00:22:08,770 Speaker 2: you need to get to. 427 00:22:09,060 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. And that, by the way, neither of those were perfect. 428 00:22:12,250 --> 00:22:14,569 Speaker 1: Yeah, and narrow it, you know, narrow it down, tighten 429 00:22:14,569 --> 00:22:16,448 Speaker 1: it up, practise with people. And that's what I want 430 00:22:16,449 --> 00:22:17,969 Speaker 1: to leave you with on this one, folks, is you 431 00:22:17,969 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: have to get comfortable with the uncomfortable feeling of selling yourself, 432 00:22:22,050 --> 00:22:23,688 Speaker 1: and the only way you're gonna get comfortable is if 433 00:22:23,689 --> 00:22:24,229 Speaker 1: you keep 434 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,790 Speaker 1: Doing it. So sell yourself to the dog, sell yourself 435 00:22:26,790 --> 00:22:29,379 Speaker 1: to your partner, sell yourself to your kids, to your friends, 436 00:22:29,550 --> 00:22:31,750 Speaker 1: to anyone who will listen to you. Sell yourself to 437 00:22:31,750 --> 00:22:34,629 Speaker 1: the guy that delivers the box at the front door, right? 438 00:22:34,910 --> 00:22:37,790 Speaker 1: practise that, practise what you're going to say, and practise 439 00:22:37,790 --> 00:22:39,389 Speaker 1: being able to say it succinctly. 440 00:22:39,709 --> 00:22:43,890 Speaker 1: And being able to reel off both your technical skills 441 00:22:43,890 --> 00:22:47,910 Speaker 1: and also your softer skills, but with a powerful way 442 00:22:47,910 --> 00:22:48,599 Speaker 1: of describing 443 00:22:48,599 --> 00:22:51,550 Speaker 2: them. And I think if you take nothing else away 444 00:22:51,550 --> 00:22:55,030 Speaker 2: from this podcast series, take that away, get good at that. 445 00:22:56,979 --> 00:23:01,140 Speaker 1: Shortlisted is produced by Future Women's Jobs Academy. To apply 446 00:23:01,140 --> 00:23:07,060 Speaker 1: to join, head to jobsacademy.uwomen.com or go to Futurewomen.com to 447 00:23:07,060 --> 00:23:09,010 Speaker 1: become a future women member today.