1 00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:03,690 Speaker 1: Shortlisted is brought to you by Future Women's Jobs Academy. 2 00:00:04,079 --> 00:00:07,190 Speaker 1: Getting back to work after a career break isn't easy. 3 00:00:07,510 --> 00:00:11,319 Speaker 1: Future Women's Jobs Academy is a free online programme supported 4 00:00:11,319 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: by the Australian government. It's proven to increase confidence and 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:22,870 Speaker 1: connect women with meaningful and flexible jobs. Apply today at jobsacademy.uwomemen.com. 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,229 Speaker 1: We'll support you to find the right job and thrive. 7 00:00:29,100 --> 00:00:31,739 Speaker 1: Nothing makes a person go weak at the knees quite 8 00:00:31,739 --> 00:00:36,470 Speaker 1: like a job interview. Enter shortlisted. A podcast by future 9 00:00:36,470 --> 00:00:40,060 Speaker 1: women where Helen McCabe and I hold your virtual hand, 10 00:00:40,348 --> 00:00:43,270 Speaker 1: walking with you every step of the way, right to 11 00:00:43,270 --> 00:00:46,830 Speaker 1: the interview door and straight onto the shortlist. 12 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:52,110 Speaker 1: In this episode, we explore another common interview question. What 13 00:00:52,110 --> 00:00:55,950 Speaker 1: are your salary expectations? Let's talk about what you're worth, 14 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,959 Speaker 1: what your potential employer can afford to pay, how to 15 00:00:59,959 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: answer this question, and what to do when they don't 16 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,050 Speaker 1: bring up salary at 17 00:01:06,779 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 2: Let's just get to some facts around salary negotiation. What 18 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 2: do we know about it? 19 00:01:13,459 --> 00:01:16,919 Speaker 1: I think we know a few things about salary negotiation. Firstly, 20 00:01:17,250 --> 00:01:20,449 Speaker 1: it is how pay is set in a lot of 21 00:01:20,449 --> 00:01:24,129 Speaker 1: Australian workplaces. There are some workplaces where your pay is 22 00:01:24,129 --> 00:01:27,889 Speaker 1: governed by an award rate or a collective agreement, and 23 00:01:27,889 --> 00:01:30,768 Speaker 1: even within that, you will tend to have some scope 24 00:01:30,769 --> 00:01:34,209 Speaker 1: to negotiate. Perhaps you'll have scope to negotiate within a band. 25 00:01:34,620 --> 00:01:38,989 Speaker 1: And in other organisations around different workforces, ABS data shows 26 00:01:38,989 --> 00:01:43,269 Speaker 1: that around 38, 40% have salaries that are set entirely 27 00:01:43,269 --> 00:01:47,470 Speaker 1: by individual employer agreements. So you are negotiating one on 28 00:01:47,470 --> 00:01:50,849 Speaker 1: one with the person who is interviewing you. So, I 29 00:01:50,849 --> 00:01:54,430 Speaker 1: think negotiation skills are important no matter what. It's not 30 00:01:54,430 --> 00:01:57,150 Speaker 1: enough to say, I'm working in a, in a workforce 31 00:01:57,150 --> 00:01:59,709 Speaker 1: or in an industry where the award sets the rate. 32 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: Well, sure, but maybe for your level of experience, you 33 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:07,319 Speaker 1: could be paid anywhere from 45,000 to 58,000. That's a 34 00:02:07,319 --> 00:02:10,029 Speaker 1: really big difference, and your ability to negotiate within that 35 00:02:10,029 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: band is totally relevant. 36 00:02:12,550 --> 00:02:17,509 Speaker 2: And we also know that it's now increasingly common for 37 00:02:17,508 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 2: organisations to have bands themselves, like private sector organisations that 38 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,630 Speaker 2: work with some bands, and in some cases, and pretty rare, 39 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 2: but in some cases, they're made public. So a little. 40 00:02:28,163 --> 00:02:30,585 Speaker 2: A bit of research, and you could kind of discover 41 00:02:30,585 --> 00:02:33,875 Speaker 2: roughly what the bands are in your organisation. Is that 42 00:02:33,875 --> 00:02:34,115 Speaker 2: fair to 43 00:02:34,115 --> 00:02:36,315 Speaker 1: say? Yeah, I think so. But one thing I'd like 44 00:02:36,315 --> 00:02:38,335 Speaker 1: to know from you, as someone who employs a lot 45 00:02:38,335 --> 00:02:41,705 Speaker 1: of people, is when do you bring this up? And like, 46 00:02:41,714 --> 00:02:43,785 Speaker 1: at what point do you actually get to say, 47 00:02:44,649 --> 00:02:47,889 Speaker 1: What am I going to get paid? Because sometimes in 48 00:02:47,889 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: a job interview they say, what are your salary expectations, 49 00:02:51,449 --> 00:02:55,250 Speaker 1: but my experience has been, usually you go through a 50 00:02:55,250 --> 00:02:58,830 Speaker 1: series of processes from the resume to a couple of interviews, 51 00:02:58,889 --> 00:03:00,888 Speaker 1: and no one talks about money till the last minute. 52 00:03:01,339 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 2: Yes, and I think that's a failing on everyone's behalf. 53 00:03:03,820 --> 00:03:06,779 Speaker 2: So I do think what I'd like people to take 54 00:03:06,779 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 2: away from this podcast is that it is perfectly legitimate 55 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:12,500 Speaker 2: to have an idea about what you want to be 56 00:03:12,500 --> 00:03:15,139 Speaker 2: paid in that role. It might not be what you 57 00:03:15,139 --> 00:03:17,970 Speaker 2: want to be paid, but if you're going for the job, 58 00:03:18,139 --> 00:03:21,418 Speaker 2: you should have an idea about what you think that 59 00:03:21,419 --> 00:03:23,539 Speaker 2: salary will be. And I think it's perfect. 60 00:03:23,949 --> 00:03:26,399 Speaker 2: reasonable to be upfront about that. Pretty early on in 61 00:03:26,399 --> 00:03:31,070 Speaker 2: the process. I also think it's beholden on organisations to 62 00:03:31,070 --> 00:03:33,710 Speaker 2: be a little more transparent about it. And I would 63 00:03:33,710 --> 00:03:37,309 Speaker 2: worry if I'm into round 3 of an interview, and 64 00:03:37,309 --> 00:03:41,550 Speaker 2: there's still no indication about what that salary might be. Now, 65 00:03:41,630 --> 00:03:43,990 Speaker 2: that's for two reasons. One, you're a busy person, you 66 00:03:43,990 --> 00:03:46,070 Speaker 2: may not have a job, but you're a busy person. 67 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:47,759 Speaker 2: You've got a lot of other things going on in 68 00:03:47,759 --> 00:03:52,039 Speaker 2: your life, and particularly if you've got caring responsibilities, going 69 00:03:52,039 --> 00:03:59,070 Speaker 2: through emotionally difficult job applications and interviews is just time 70 00:03:59,070 --> 00:04:01,639 Speaker 2: you don't have if the job is not going to 71 00:04:01,639 --> 00:04:06,039 Speaker 2: satisfy you in terms of the salary that you need. So, uh, Jam, 72 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,470 Speaker 2: I think it's pretty reasonable to do a bit of research. 73 00:04:09,339 --> 00:04:12,539 Speaker 2: Get a sense from the recruiter or anything you can 74 00:04:12,539 --> 00:04:15,660 Speaker 2: find online about what the role is and what other 75 00:04:15,660 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 2: companies pay in that role. And then it's pretty reasonable 76 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,940 Speaker 2: to say upfront, you know, I am expecting that this salary, 77 00:04:21,970 --> 00:04:23,579 Speaker 2: or can you give me some indication of what the 78 00:04:23,579 --> 00:04:26,170 Speaker 2: salary band is? Would you agree with that? 79 00:04:26,339 --> 00:04:28,380 Speaker 1: I think so as well, because on top of you 80 00:04:28,380 --> 00:04:30,339 Speaker 1: being busy, the employer's busy. 81 00:04:30,738 --> 00:04:34,140 Speaker 1: And there's nothing more frustrating as an employer than having 82 00:04:34,390 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 1: 34 conversations with someone and then they give you a 83 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,799 Speaker 1: dollar figure that's $80,000 more than you can afford, and 84 00:04:39,799 --> 00:04:41,070 Speaker 1: you're like, well this is not even, 85 00:04:41,619 --> 00:04:43,970 Speaker 1: In the same stratosphere. This is not something we can 86 00:04:43,970 --> 00:04:48,529 Speaker 1: negotiate to. This is just, we can't meet what you want. 87 00:04:48,890 --> 00:04:50,140 Speaker 1: And I think if there's a bit of a gap, 88 00:04:50,250 --> 00:04:52,459 Speaker 1: there's always the potential that you can come together and 89 00:04:52,459 --> 00:04:54,959 Speaker 1: you can negotiate to something that works for both of you. 90 00:04:55,089 --> 00:04:57,649 Speaker 1: But if there's a huge gap between what you're expecting 91 00:04:57,649 --> 00:05:00,010 Speaker 1: and what that employer's willing to pay, better to find 92 00:05:00,010 --> 00:05:01,928 Speaker 1: that early and better to find that out. 93 00:05:02,510 --> 00:05:04,390 Speaker 1: Early for everyone's sake. I 94 00:05:04,390 --> 00:05:06,470 Speaker 2: completely agree. So it's really just about what we've been 95 00:05:06,470 --> 00:05:10,738 Speaker 2: saying throughout this entire series. It's about being authentic, being respectful, 96 00:05:11,220 --> 00:05:13,500 Speaker 2: understanding they've got a role that they need to feel, 97 00:05:13,549 --> 00:05:16,070 Speaker 2: and they've got expectations around what the skill set and 98 00:05:16,070 --> 00:05:18,390 Speaker 2: the type of person that they want for that role, uh, 99 00:05:18,470 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 2: and making sure that the role is right for you. 100 00:05:20,945 --> 00:05:25,695 Speaker 2: And for them. So, don't be too nervous about asking 101 00:05:25,975 --> 00:05:28,493 Speaker 2: where that role fits in the salary bands. You don't 102 00:05:28,494 --> 00:05:30,255 Speaker 2: have to even ask exactly what it is. You can 103 00:05:30,255 --> 00:05:32,934 Speaker 2: ask where, whereabouts that they're thinking of paying. 104 00:05:33,053 --> 00:05:35,265 Speaker 1: So, can you give me an actual sentence that I 105 00:05:35,265 --> 00:05:37,484 Speaker 1: can practise? So I am interviewing you for a job, 106 00:05:37,535 --> 00:05:39,404 Speaker 1: and I say, Do you have any other questions? 107 00:05:40,053 --> 00:05:44,605 Speaker 2: Yes, Jamila, I'm interested to know approximately what this role 108 00:05:44,605 --> 00:05:45,255 Speaker 2: would pay. 109 00:05:45,850 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, perfect. So you just go, you just say it, right? 110 00:05:49,119 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, just be really straightforward. I mean, just to know 111 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 2: roughly what this, this role will pay. One of the 112 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:55,269 Speaker 2: points I want to make is that if you are 113 00:05:55,559 --> 00:05:59,579 Speaker 2: in the 40, 50, 60 age bracket, um, I do 114 00:05:59,579 --> 00:06:05,750 Speaker 2: think there's room for a misunderstanding. So, some employers might 115 00:06:05,750 --> 00:06:09,209 Speaker 2: think you've got so much experience, you're gonna expect 150,000. 116 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,488 Speaker 2: And therefore they might not hire you. Some employers might 117 00:06:13,488 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 2: think you're really desperate because you're over 50 and you'll 118 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 2: just take anything and you're like, well, actually, no, I've got, 119 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,709 Speaker 2: You know, childcare to, to pay if I take this role, 120 00:06:21,850 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 2: so I need a certain number to make this worthwhile. 121 00:06:24,250 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 2: So I think in the context of being a woman 122 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:33,410 Speaker 2: over 40, then getting rid of that misunderstanding around what 123 00:06:33,410 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 2: your expectation is and what your employer's expectation is pretty 124 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 2: important and to do that early. 125 00:06:38,369 --> 00:06:42,010 Speaker 1: And I suspect that probably applies at different points in 126 00:06:42,010 --> 00:06:42,570 Speaker 1: your trajectory. 127 00:06:42,670 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: Through your career as well, right? For example, if you're 128 00:06:45,420 --> 00:06:48,739 Speaker 1: shifting industries, or you're embarking on a new career, no 129 00:06:48,738 --> 00:06:51,980 Speaker 1: matter what age you're at, you're probably not worth as 130 00:06:51,980 --> 00:06:55,019 Speaker 1: much in that new industry as you were in your 131 00:06:55,019 --> 00:06:58,220 Speaker 1: previous one, unless you can really prove there's some transferable 132 00:06:58,220 --> 00:07:00,690 Speaker 1: skills there. Perhaps you're not going all the way back 133 00:07:00,690 --> 00:07:02,940 Speaker 1: to the beginning, a 22 year old straight out of 134 00:07:02,940 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: university or an 18-year-old straight out of high school, but 135 00:07:06,630 --> 00:07:10,578 Speaker 1: You can't necessarily expect to move sideways, uh, when you're 136 00:07:10,579 --> 00:07:12,739 Speaker 1: going into a new industry, cause you've got some things 137 00:07:12,739 --> 00:07:13,459 Speaker 1: to learn. 138 00:07:13,910 --> 00:07:18,149 Speaker 2: That's right. It's quite a complex calculation to make. So, uh, OK, 139 00:07:18,350 --> 00:07:21,739 Speaker 2: I'm 50, and I'm not an expert in project management, 140 00:07:21,869 --> 00:07:23,989 Speaker 2: but I run a household and I'm pretty damn organised 141 00:07:23,989 --> 00:07:25,109 Speaker 2: and I know I can do the job. 142 00:07:25,410 --> 00:07:27,929 Speaker 2: But I probably need to prove it because it's not 143 00:07:28,179 --> 00:07:32,170 Speaker 2: clear in my CV. So I'm prepared to take a role, 144 00:07:32,540 --> 00:07:34,959 Speaker 2: let's say, for round numbers on $100,000 a year, but 145 00:07:34,959 --> 00:07:39,130 Speaker 2: I kind of know that in this organisation, in this sector, 146 00:07:39,380 --> 00:07:42,380 Speaker 2: that's a $150,000 role, I'm prepared to have a go 147 00:07:42,380 --> 00:07:43,980 Speaker 2: at it. And, you know, I've got a 6 month 148 00:07:43,980 --> 00:07:47,570 Speaker 2: probation period, so I can have a go at proving 149 00:07:47,899 --> 00:07:51,730 Speaker 2: that I'm worth the extra $50,000. And you can set, 150 00:07:51,779 --> 00:07:53,100 Speaker 2: and there's a couple of tricks to this, you can 151 00:07:53,100 --> 00:07:54,260 Speaker 2: actually ask for a pay review. 152 00:07:54,755 --> 00:07:56,994 Speaker 2: In that context, you go, I'm prepared to take the 153 00:07:56,994 --> 00:08:00,154 Speaker 2: lesser salary, but I'm looking for a pay review in 154 00:08:00,154 --> 00:08:03,795 Speaker 2: 3 to 6 months, or I'm prepared to take the salary, 155 00:08:03,875 --> 00:08:06,075 Speaker 2: but would it be all right if I took Friday 156 00:08:06,075 --> 00:08:11,644 Speaker 2: afternoons off because, you know, I'm into ballet on Friday afternoons, 157 00:08:11,654 --> 00:08:14,475 Speaker 2: and my friends and I go away for the weekend 158 00:08:14,475 --> 00:08:17,274 Speaker 2: or whatever it is. So you can kind of negotiate 159 00:08:17,274 --> 00:08:20,394 Speaker 2: a little bit around things that might give you more time, 160 00:08:20,475 --> 00:08:23,274 Speaker 2: which might be as valuable to you as the extra salary. 161 00:08:23,839 --> 00:08:26,239 Speaker 2: But I think the point that you're making, Jamila, is 162 00:08:26,239 --> 00:08:30,510 Speaker 2: that all of us in our careers have taken salary 163 00:08:30,839 --> 00:08:33,030 Speaker 2: cuts from time to time. Have you done that? Yes, 164 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:35,530 Speaker 2: definitely have done that on a couple of occasions, in 165 00:08:35,530 --> 00:08:38,950 Speaker 1: fact. And why did you do it? What motivated you 166 00:08:38,950 --> 00:08:40,089 Speaker 1: to take less money? 167 00:08:40,479 --> 00:08:43,909 Speaker 2: Well, I, I knew I didn't have expertise in that field, 168 00:08:44,239 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 2: and I needed to prove myself. The most dramatic was 169 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:49,250 Speaker 2: going from 170 00:08:49,900 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 2: Television news reporting to print reporting. So I went from 171 00:08:55,099 --> 00:08:58,140 Speaker 2: a young television reporter and I wanted to be a, 172 00:08:58,179 --> 00:09:03,140 Speaker 2: a newspaper reporter. And, uh, I thought that skill was greatly, 173 00:09:03,729 --> 00:09:06,900 Speaker 2: you know, harder and more prestigious than being a television reporter. 174 00:09:06,909 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 2: So I was prepared to do anything to get, um, 175 00:09:09,380 --> 00:09:13,469 Speaker 2: taken seriously, um, by a newspaper company. So I took 176 00:09:13,469 --> 00:09:14,359 Speaker 2: a significant pay cut. 177 00:09:15,890 --> 00:09:19,049 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've done the same thing a couple of times. One, 178 00:09:19,159 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: changing industries again, moving from politics to media, in my case, 179 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:24,150 Speaker 1: took a whopping great pay cut. 180 00:09:24,539 --> 00:09:27,659 Speaker 1: Uh, because young political staffers are paid a lot of money, 181 00:09:27,739 --> 00:09:29,789 Speaker 1: and that just wasn't something I was going to be 182 00:09:29,789 --> 00:09:32,429 Speaker 1: able to attract, moving into the media that generally doesn't 183 00:09:32,429 --> 00:09:36,190 Speaker 1: have the same cash for junior roles. And it was 184 00:09:36,190 --> 00:09:37,989 Speaker 1: a bit of a shock to the system, because I 185 00:09:37,989 --> 00:09:40,099 Speaker 1: had a sense in my head of what I was worth, 186 00:09:40,429 --> 00:09:42,820 Speaker 1: but I think I probably had a slightly inflated sense 187 00:09:42,820 --> 00:09:44,669 Speaker 1: of what I was worth, and I had to weigh 188 00:09:44,669 --> 00:09:47,270 Speaker 1: up how much I wanted that change, how much I 189 00:09:47,270 --> 00:09:49,829 Speaker 1: wanted that new job. And I think that's something you've 190 00:09:49,830 --> 00:09:52,270 Speaker 1: got to go through when you're thinking about salary is 191 00:09:52,270 --> 00:09:53,739 Speaker 1: what is most important to you. 192 00:09:54,049 --> 00:09:55,710 Speaker 1: The other time I've taken a pay cut is after 193 00:09:55,710 --> 00:09:58,150 Speaker 1: I had my son, and I moved out of the 194 00:09:58,150 --> 00:10:00,739 Speaker 1: workforce for a while and came back into a different role. 195 00:10:01,150 --> 00:10:04,510 Speaker 1: I decided that flexibility, uh, being able to work part time, 196 00:10:04,669 --> 00:10:08,900 Speaker 1: being able to work from home, and having slightly less 197 00:10:08,900 --> 00:10:12,229 Speaker 1: responsibility in terms of hours was worth it for me 198 00:10:12,229 --> 00:10:13,950 Speaker 1: at that point in my life. I didn't think it 199 00:10:13,950 --> 00:10:15,949 Speaker 1: was gonna be worth it forever, but at that point 200 00:10:15,950 --> 00:10:18,468 Speaker 1: in my life, that extra time was worth more than 201 00:10:18,469 --> 00:10:19,109 Speaker 1: extra money. 202 00:10:20,070 --> 00:10:22,710 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I guess what we're saying to anyone that's 203 00:10:22,710 --> 00:10:26,229 Speaker 2: going into a um a job interview and having salary negotiations, 204 00:10:26,349 --> 00:10:29,030 Speaker 2: these are things you have to weigh up and meet 205 00:10:29,030 --> 00:10:31,739 Speaker 2: your employer halfway if the money's not there. 206 00:10:32,229 --> 00:10:35,830 Speaker 2: And I think it's perfectly legitimate to say, all right, 207 00:10:36,109 --> 00:10:39,750 Speaker 2: you're 2000 to $30,000 less, um, I, I, and particularly 208 00:10:39,750 --> 00:10:42,900 Speaker 2: if you've done your research and you know you're being underpaid, 209 00:10:43,390 --> 00:10:46,579 Speaker 2: find ways to make up the difference that work for you, 210 00:10:46,789 --> 00:10:50,010 Speaker 2: or to build in a salary review, or be. 211 00:10:50,114 --> 00:10:53,784 Speaker 2: Confident that you are going to get new skills, that 212 00:10:53,784 --> 00:10:56,544 Speaker 2: you will then be able to argue for, you know, the, 213 00:10:56,664 --> 00:11:00,025 Speaker 2: the salary that you're entitled to, or get out of 214 00:11:00,025 --> 00:11:03,385 Speaker 2: there and take those skills to the next employer that's 215 00:11:03,385 --> 00:11:06,065 Speaker 2: going to pay you what you think you deserve to 216 00:11:06,065 --> 00:11:10,424 Speaker 2: be paid. It is a delicate process, but if you 217 00:11:10,424 --> 00:11:13,625 Speaker 2: do it well, uh, you can usually be pretty proud 218 00:11:13,625 --> 00:11:15,135 Speaker 2: of yourself at the end of it. 219 00:11:15,344 --> 00:11:17,224 Speaker 1: There are going to be a lot of people listening 220 00:11:17,224 --> 00:11:18,224 Speaker 1: who are thinking, 221 00:11:18,820 --> 00:11:21,940 Speaker 1: I'm not even negotiating for a big salary or anything 222 00:11:21,940 --> 00:11:24,580 Speaker 1: like that, I'm not negotiating at all. Whatever they offer 223 00:11:24,580 --> 00:11:26,820 Speaker 1: me is what I'm going to take, even if it's 224 00:11:26,820 --> 00:11:30,580 Speaker 1: surprisingly low. How do we encourage the people who are 225 00:11:30,580 --> 00:11:32,700 Speaker 1: listening to think about, 226 00:11:33,979 --> 00:11:37,619 Speaker 1: That negotiating question and we hate the word empower here, 227 00:11:37,750 --> 00:11:39,738 Speaker 1: but I can't think of a better one, and empower 228 00:11:39,739 --> 00:11:41,229 Speaker 1: those women to negotiate. 229 00:11:42,929 --> 00:11:45,369 Speaker 2: Well, there's a couple of things in your favour. If 230 00:11:45,369 --> 00:11:48,359 Speaker 2: they've gone through the process of choosing you, 231 00:11:49,229 --> 00:11:52,869 Speaker 2: To not move forward with the hiring of you will 232 00:11:52,869 --> 00:11:56,709 Speaker 2: cost them time and money. So you do have some 233 00:11:56,710 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 2: power in the process, because it's just really time-consuming, choosing 234 00:12:01,750 --> 00:12:05,270 Speaker 2: new staff and onboarding. So, don't think you have no 235 00:12:05,270 --> 00:12:08,070 Speaker 2: power at all. I just want you to remember that. 236 00:12:08,229 --> 00:12:11,630 Speaker 2: And also, that occurs when you are thinking about walking 237 00:12:11,630 --> 00:12:14,309 Speaker 2: away from a role. It's much easier to keep good 238 00:12:14,309 --> 00:12:18,030 Speaker 2: stuff than it is to let someone go over a 239 00:12:18,030 --> 00:12:18,669 Speaker 2: small pay rise. 240 00:12:19,229 --> 00:12:22,020 Speaker 2: So, bear that in mind as well, once you're in 241 00:12:22,020 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 2: the job. But if you've got no negotiating power, then 242 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,700 Speaker 2: an absolutely none, and you just need the work, you've 243 00:12:28,700 --> 00:12:33,140 Speaker 2: got childcare costs, or a mortgage, or electricity bills, and 244 00:12:33,140 --> 00:12:36,500 Speaker 2: you just want this job. There is absolutely nothing wrong 245 00:12:36,500 --> 00:12:39,900 Speaker 2: with just taking the job and saying, thank you very much. 246 00:12:40,390 --> 00:12:42,109 Speaker 2: This is a job I needed, and I'm gonna work 247 00:12:42,109 --> 00:12:45,390 Speaker 2: very hard in it. That's a perfectly legitimate response. And 248 00:12:45,390 --> 00:12:48,030 Speaker 2: in fact, as an employer, you spend a lot of 249 00:12:48,030 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 2: time worried about the salaries and the people that you 250 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,750 Speaker 2: hire and being able to keep them in jobs. And 251 00:12:53,750 --> 00:12:56,739 Speaker 2: it's lovely to have an employee just say, Thank you, 252 00:12:57,030 --> 00:13:00,330 Speaker 2: I'm gonna work really hard for you. And hopefully, when 253 00:13:00,510 --> 00:13:03,109 Speaker 2: the business is able to offer pay rises, you're the 254 00:13:03,109 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 2: one that stands out as someone who is just prepared 255 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:06,809 Speaker 2: to get in and do the work. So, 256 00:13:07,250 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 2: Don't go home feeling like I haven't won one for, 257 00:13:11,250 --> 00:13:13,809 Speaker 2: you know, the sisterhood today by arguing for an extra 258 00:13:13,809 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 2: $10,000 because not every conversation has to be negotiation. Yes, 259 00:13:19,169 --> 00:13:20,968 Speaker 2: thank you very much. I'm gonna work really hard in 260 00:13:20,969 --> 00:13:22,848 Speaker 2: this job. It's a pretty good response as well. 261 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: Can I disagree? Of course. I mean, I, I'm not 262 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: saying that that never holds. I think that absolutely holds 263 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,309 Speaker 1: a lot of the time, and I think that loyalty 264 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: and showing an employer that you're not just in it 265 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,150 Speaker 1: for the money is actually a really important part of 266 00:13:38,150 --> 00:13:39,919 Speaker 1: getting hired and being a good employee. 267 00:13:40,539 --> 00:13:43,260 Speaker 1: The only reason I feel uncomfortable about it is that 268 00:13:43,260 --> 00:13:46,239 Speaker 1: the data shows that women are less likely to negotiate 269 00:13:46,239 --> 00:13:49,260 Speaker 1: at all. And so that makes me nervous. A lot 270 00:13:49,260 --> 00:13:51,539 Speaker 1: of the studies show, for example, that women are less 271 00:13:51,539 --> 00:13:55,090 Speaker 1: likely to initiate salary negotiations in the first place than men, 272 00:13:55,460 --> 00:13:59,599 Speaker 1: and that can lead to lower salary outcomes. Women are 273 00:13:59,599 --> 00:14:01,939 Speaker 1: less likely to negotiate on salary, and when they do 274 00:14:01,940 --> 00:14:04,218 Speaker 1: negotiate on salary, they're less likely to get what they 275 00:14:04,219 --> 00:14:05,098 Speaker 1: ask for than men. 276 00:14:05,409 --> 00:14:07,570 Speaker 1: And that is a contributor to the gender pay gap, 277 00:14:07,690 --> 00:14:10,409 Speaker 1: both the not asking and the when you ask not 278 00:14:10,409 --> 00:14:13,130 Speaker 1: necessarily being entertained in the same way as men. So 279 00:14:13,130 --> 00:14:14,689 Speaker 1: for me, that sort of says, 280 00:14:15,030 --> 00:14:18,569 Speaker 1: At a global level, we've got some work to do 281 00:14:18,570 --> 00:14:20,140 Speaker 1: to make sure that men and women are more equal 282 00:14:20,140 --> 00:14:24,140 Speaker 1: in workplaces around negotiations. But at an individual level, I 283 00:14:24,140 --> 00:14:28,140 Speaker 1: really encourage negotiation as a skill for you to practise 284 00:14:28,140 --> 00:14:31,020 Speaker 1: and develop. I'd echo what Helen says, that if it 285 00:14:31,020 --> 00:14:33,099 Speaker 1: doesn't come off, if you don't win that negotiation, you 286 00:14:33,099 --> 00:14:36,130 Speaker 1: haven't messed up. I think going through the process, though, 287 00:14:36,539 --> 00:14:40,419 Speaker 1: is good for you. It's good practise because negotiation is 288 00:14:40,419 --> 00:14:42,419 Speaker 1: a hireable skill like any other. 289 00:14:43,210 --> 00:14:46,369 Speaker 2: So, the premise of your question was, what if I've 290 00:14:46,369 --> 00:14:49,469 Speaker 2: got no negotiating position at all? 291 00:14:50,359 --> 00:14:52,719 Speaker 2: No, no, I answered the question on the basis that 292 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,229 Speaker 2: I've got no negotiating room. 293 00:14:56,130 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 2: So I'm going to throw it back at you. Let's 294 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,590 Speaker 2: say I'm going for a job working in teaching. 295 00:15:03,700 --> 00:15:07,140 Speaker 2: And I just want the job. It's around the corner 296 00:15:07,140 --> 00:15:11,619 Speaker 2: from me, it's flexible, but I know the pay's rubbish, 297 00:15:11,780 --> 00:15:14,260 Speaker 2: but I can live with that. What do you do 298 00:15:14,260 --> 00:15:15,369 Speaker 2: in that circumstance? 299 00:15:16,260 --> 00:15:18,559 Speaker 1: I think when you're talking about a profession like teaching, 300 00:15:18,679 --> 00:15:24,119 Speaker 1: you're particularly restricted, right? Because everything is set by a 301 00:15:24,330 --> 00:15:27,849 Speaker 1: negotiated contract with the whole workforce, not with you. So 302 00:15:27,849 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: you don't have that same negotiating power as an individual. 303 00:15:31,179 --> 00:15:33,809 Speaker 1: So I would say, if you don't have negotiating power 304 00:15:33,809 --> 00:15:37,119 Speaker 1: on money, try to negotiate on something else. Yep. 305 00:15:37,369 --> 00:15:40,770 Speaker 2: OK. So, I want our listeners to go away with 306 00:15:40,770 --> 00:15:44,369 Speaker 2: some clear, definitive outtakes from what we're saying. 307 00:15:45,059 --> 00:15:49,049 Speaker 2: It's OK to not win the negotiation. That's OK. Don't 308 00:15:49,049 --> 00:15:51,770 Speaker 2: feel like you've failed. It's OK to ask for what 309 00:15:51,770 --> 00:15:54,719 Speaker 2: you want, and it's OK to ask early in the piece. 310 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,289 Speaker 2: If you're kind of anxious that, I don't know this 311 00:15:57,289 --> 00:16:00,159 Speaker 2: job's gonna pay me enough, and these interviews are getting tedious, 312 00:16:00,450 --> 00:16:04,570 Speaker 2: it's OK to ask politely. If you're in a role 313 00:16:04,570 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 2: which is very hard to negotiate on an actual salary, 314 00:16:08,570 --> 00:16:10,690 Speaker 2: look for other things. Just see what else you can 315 00:16:10,690 --> 00:16:12,770 Speaker 2: do that will make your life a bit. 316 00:16:13,289 --> 00:16:16,489 Speaker 2: Easier or better, um, in that role. Are they the 317 00:16:16,489 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 2: key outtakes? 318 00:16:17,530 --> 00:16:19,969 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's about right. Um, the one other 319 00:16:19,969 --> 00:16:24,409 Speaker 1: thing I think I'd say is that you should try 320 00:16:24,409 --> 00:16:28,919 Speaker 1: and reframe the idea of pay negotiation as a conversation, 321 00:16:29,049 --> 00:16:31,539 Speaker 1: not a confrontational process. Like, it doesn't have to be 322 00:16:31,539 --> 00:16:34,489 Speaker 1: an us versus them sort of feeling when you're negotiating pay. 323 00:16:34,609 --> 00:16:37,849 Speaker 1: It's just a conversation. You're asking a question. As long 324 00:16:37,849 --> 00:16:40,450 Speaker 1: as you recognise that it's possible the answer to that 325 00:16:40,450 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: question is going to be no. 326 00:16:42,260 --> 00:16:44,619 Speaker 1: I think you can have a good chat, it doesn't 327 00:16:44,619 --> 00:16:46,140 Speaker 1: have to be an angry thing. That's 328 00:16:46,140 --> 00:16:48,570 Speaker 2: right, and play the no in out in your head. 329 00:16:49,299 --> 00:16:52,299 Speaker 2: Play what it feels like to be told no. So 330 00:16:52,299 --> 00:16:54,929 Speaker 2: no Jamila, I can't afford that pay rise right now, 331 00:16:55,179 --> 00:16:56,380 Speaker 2: how do you feel about that? 332 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: And know what your response is going to be, right? 333 00:16:59,359 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: Like if you were buying a house, if you and 334 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: I were going out to buy a house today, and 335 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:04,959 Speaker 1: we knew we'd be negotiating, or we'd be part of 336 00:17:04,959 --> 00:17:08,079 Speaker 1: an auction, we would have an amount that was our, 337 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:10,910 Speaker 1: we will not go any further, we will not bid more. 338 00:17:11,079 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 1: And in the same way, I think you should have 339 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,478 Speaker 1: with a salary, an amount that you're not willing to 340 00:17:14,479 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: go below. You should have some flexibility, you should be 341 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: negotiating and asking for what you want, or even ambitiously 342 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: more than what you hope to get, but, 343 00:17:23,270 --> 00:17:25,540 Speaker 1: You should have a number in your head where you're like, 344 00:17:25,589 --> 00:17:27,899 Speaker 1: at that point, this job's not worth it for me. 345 00:17:28,069 --> 00:17:30,510 Speaker 1: But until I get to that point, I, I do 346 00:17:30,510 --> 00:17:31,329 Speaker 1: still want this job. 347 00:17:31,550 --> 00:17:33,250 Speaker 2: Really good advice, and I'm gonna just tell one other 348 00:17:33,250 --> 00:17:35,629 Speaker 2: story that when I was in a job negotiation that 349 00:17:35,630 --> 00:17:41,069 Speaker 2: was quite a, uh, high intensity one, I got an 350 00:17:41,069 --> 00:17:44,669 Speaker 2: email about the job, um, it was a contract. 351 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 2: And I was really upset by the email and the number. 352 00:17:51,849 --> 00:17:56,969 Speaker 2: And I rang a male friend at the time who 353 00:17:56,969 --> 00:18:00,729 Speaker 2: was a master negotiator. He's well known, is really good 354 00:18:00,729 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 2: at doing contracts and negotiating contracts. A lawyer, of course. 355 00:18:04,849 --> 00:18:07,770 Speaker 2: So I asked for his advice, and, um, I'll never 356 00:18:07,770 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 2: forget it. His advice was, 357 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:14,069 Speaker 2: Take the emotion out of it. That's just a starting point. Like, 358 00:18:14,319 --> 00:18:16,790 Speaker 2: why are you so upset about this? That is their 359 00:18:16,790 --> 00:18:19,948 Speaker 2: first offer. They do not expect you to accept that. 360 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 2: They're hoping you might be, uh, going to accept it, 361 00:18:22,839 --> 00:18:25,150 Speaker 2: but they fully expect you to come back with a counteroffer. 362 00:18:25,239 --> 00:18:25,629 Speaker 2: But you, 363 00:18:25,670 --> 00:18:28,310 Speaker 1: you saw it as like a judgement of your personal worth. 364 00:18:28,599 --> 00:18:30,369 Speaker 1: This is what I am worth in their eyes. And 365 00:18:30,369 --> 00:18:30,589 Speaker 1: how 366 00:18:30,589 --> 00:18:34,479 Speaker 2: dare they insult me? And of course he was 100% right. 367 00:18:34,949 --> 00:18:39,810 Speaker 2: So, something I learned in that process was strip the 368 00:18:39,810 --> 00:18:43,599 Speaker 2: emotion out. Don't don't see this as a personal thing. 369 00:18:43,930 --> 00:18:47,609 Speaker 2: Everyone is just playing a part, and you'll get to 370 00:18:47,609 --> 00:18:52,530 Speaker 2: a midpoint. So, I'll say an extra, you know, 30% 371 00:18:52,530 --> 00:18:55,239 Speaker 2: on top of what they offered, and we'll get to 15%. 372 00:18:55,530 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 2: And everyone sort of feels like they've had a win. Now, 373 00:18:58,410 --> 00:19:01,010 Speaker 2: I mentioned that in a situation where you really do 374 00:19:01,010 --> 00:19:01,810 Speaker 2: have some 375 00:19:01,859 --> 00:19:05,839 Speaker 2: Negotiating power. But even then, you know, an employer will 376 00:19:05,839 --> 00:19:08,849 Speaker 2: eventually walk away if you're not good at it or 377 00:19:08,849 --> 00:19:12,689 Speaker 2: cautious and you don't take into consideration what their levers 378 00:19:12,689 --> 00:19:15,530 Speaker 2: are and what the pressure is on them. So, you 379 00:19:15,530 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 2: do need to do a little bit of research about 380 00:19:18,650 --> 00:19:22,089 Speaker 2: the person and the organisation that you're working in to 381 00:19:22,089 --> 00:19:25,689 Speaker 2: better understand the pressure that they're under. Cause sometimes you're 382 00:19:25,689 --> 00:19:27,930 Speaker 2: not aware of that as an employee. You can't quite 383 00:19:27,930 --> 00:19:28,729 Speaker 2: see the full picture. 384 00:19:30,910 --> 00:19:35,030 Speaker 1: Shortlisted is produced by Future Women's Jobs Academy. To apply 385 00:19:35,030 --> 00:19:40,989 Speaker 1: to join, head to jobsacademy.uwomen.com or go to Futurewomen.com to 386 00:19:40,989 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 1: become a future women member today.