Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. My concern is that
Speaker 2: Megan Markl becomes the boy who cried jam.
Speaker 3: No. That is a real concern.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you can't just keep sending people jam and
Speaker 2: expecting them to spreuk it. You've already used.
Speaker 1: She didn't mention dog treats either.
Speaker 2: I think it's going to be dog treats. I reckon
Speaker 2: it's going to be scented candles. I think we're going
Speaker 2: to have a tetowel and a fancy class. Welcome to
Speaker 2: MoMA mea out loud what women are actually talking about?
Speaker 2: On Wednesday, the nineteenth of February. I am Jesse.
Speaker 1: Stevens, I'm mea Friedman, and Holly.
Speaker 2: Is away this week, which means Amelia Lester, you are
Speaker 2: here again. Hello on the show today. A moment's silence
Speaker 2: for Megan Markles American Riviera Orchard We hardly knew, an announcement,
Speaker 2: an Instagram reel and a new brand. Did Meghan pull
Speaker 2: off an epic relaunch? May I do not answer it? Plus?
Speaker 1: Is it a did you don't know?
Speaker 2: There's no suspense. Plus is Elon Musk using his kids
Speaker 2: as props? And if so why? And open marriages are out.
Speaker 2: Affairs are in the essay making people rethink non monogamy.
Speaker 2: But first, Amelia, in.
Speaker 3: Case you missed it, America is divorcing Europe on Valentine's Day,
Speaker 3: no less. Donald Trump's vice president J. D. Vance gave
Speaker 3: this speech in Germany, which left European leaders, who were
Speaker 3: normally a pretty blase brunch, open mouthed, slack jawed, not applauding.
Speaker 1: You came in having read this to our early morning
Speaker 1: planning meeting a little bit shaky.
Speaker 3: I was literally shaky.
Speaker 1: Little unsettled. I'm sort of blithely ignorant of Well, I've.
Speaker 2: Seen the headlines, but can you tell me why? Because
Speaker 2: they were literally in shock after they heard his speech.
Speaker 3: Yes, they were in shock. So what did he say? Well,
Speaker 3: for one, he said, everyone needs to relax about Nazis.
Speaker 3: Let's listen to a grab now.
Speaker 4: Again. We don't have to agree with everything or anything
Speaker 4: that people say, but when people represent, when political leaders
Speaker 4: represent an important constituency, it is incumbent upon us to
Speaker 4: at least participate in dialogue with them.
Speaker 1: An important constituency.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not what is the Nazis.
Speaker 1: So this is really the next level of Trump's. Some
Speaker 1: of them are very nice people.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So you have to know the context for this,
Speaker 3: which is at the weekend before this speech, Vance met
Speaker 3: with representatives of Germany's AfD party. This is a far
Speaker 3: right party which some describe as neo Nazi, and for
Speaker 3: good reason, its leaders have been convicted for using Nazi
Speaker 3: slogans a political rallies, and they've also said that not
Speaker 3: all SS leaders were bad guys.
Speaker 1: Is it the German election?
Speaker 3: Yes, iminently to day is the German election, and the
Speaker 3: AfD is actually second in the polls. It looks like
Speaker 3: it's going to have its strongest showing ever. But what's
Speaker 3: interesting is how Germany responded. So the German Chancellor Olf
Speaker 3: Schultz got up afterwards and he gave this speech. He said, basically,
Speaker 3: not on my watch. He said that Germany has committed
Speaker 3: to never again returning to fascism and the Holocaust, and
Speaker 3: that the laws that Germany has restricting hate speech that
Speaker 3: Vance was referring to ensure that that commitment is upheld.
Speaker 3: He said that they're not going to work with the AAFD.
Speaker 3: There's some talk about whether or not the AfD is
Speaker 3: going to be part of the government coalition, after all,
Speaker 3: they are tracking second in the polls. But all the
Speaker 3: other mainstream parties in Germany have said no, they're not
Speaker 3: going to work with the AfD, and Schultz, in response
Speaker 3: to Vance, said, I'm holding the line. We are going
Speaker 3: to make sure that Nazis do not end up in
Speaker 3: the German parliament again. Now do you see why I
Speaker 3: was shaky on Monday?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the.
Speaker 3: Problem is Vance is forty by the way, he's really young.
Speaker 3: So a lot of the European leaders there was reporting
Speaker 3: afterwards that part of what shocked them is that Trump
Speaker 3: is an old man and you can likely write him
Speaker 3: off as he's a little kookie. He's going to leave
Speaker 3: the world stage.
Speaker 1: He also doesn't believe in anything other than Trump, like
Speaker 1: he has no real ideology, which is just I'm going
Speaker 1: to be really populars so everyone loves me because I'm
Speaker 1: the biggest, strongest.
Speaker 2: Can I ask what JD. Vance is doing in Germany? Like,
Speaker 2: what does he have to do with any of this?
Speaker 3: Oh, he was in Germany because there's this thing called
Speaker 3: the Munich Security Conference, which is where European leaders get
Speaker 3: together to talk about how to help Ukraine and other
Speaker 3: security issues, none of which Vance talked about in the speech.
Speaker 1: And this is the kind of stuff that Trump wouldn't
Speaker 1: want to do because he would think that it would
Speaker 1: be boring. Yes, so do you think this is how
Speaker 1: it's going to go?
Speaker 3: The diet coach are smaller in Europe, so that would
Speaker 3: be another reason why he doesn't want to travel there.
Speaker 3: The other thing is that Elon Musk went to an
Speaker 3: AfD rally. I don't know if you saw that via
Speaker 3: video link.
Speaker 2: Right, Okay, kats out of the bag.
Speaker 5: I'm shocked we've kept this a secret for so long.
Speaker 5: In two weeks, my show is coming out, which I'm
Speaker 5: so excited for, and also my business, which I think
Speaker 5: there's been a lot of curiosity about. Last year, I
Speaker 5: had thought, you know what American Revier. That sounds like
Speaker 5: such a great name. It's my neighborhood. It's a nickname
Speaker 5: for Santa Barbara, but it limited me to things that
Speaker 5: were just manufactured.
Speaker 2: And grown in this area.
Speaker 5: Then Netflix came on, not just as my partner in
Speaker 5: the show, but as my partner in my business, which
Speaker 5: was huge.
Speaker 1: So I thought about it.
Speaker 5: And I've been waiting for a moment to share a
Speaker 5: name that I'd secured in twenty twenty two, and this
Speaker 5: is the moment. And it's called as Ever.
Speaker 2: As Ever essentially means.
Speaker 5: As it's always been. And if you followed me since
Speaker 5: twenty fourteen with the Tig, you know I've always loved
Speaker 5: cooking and crafting and gardening. This is what I do
Speaker 5: and I haven't been able to share it with you
Speaker 5: in the same way for the past few years, but
Speaker 5: now I can, so as things are starting to trickle
Speaker 5: out there, I wanted you to hear it from me first.
Speaker 1: Of course, there will be fruit preserves.
Speaker 5: I think we're all clear at this point that jam
Speaker 5: is my jam, but there's so many more products that
Speaker 5: I just love that I use in my home, and
Speaker 5: now it's time to share it with you, so I
Speaker 5: can't wait for you to see it.
Speaker 2: Thanks guys, if you have been waiting for pots of
Speaker 2: Jam by American Riviera Orchard, we have terrible news because
Speaker 2: Megan Markle yesterday announced a new identity for her lifestyle brand,
Speaker 2: now called as Ever.
Speaker 1: She shouldn't need me labels, she is going to need
Speaker 1: new like.
Speaker 3: Pour Out some strawberry jam from American revera orchard.
Speaker 2: If you have a Google alert set for American Riviera orchard,
Speaker 2: which mayor does, you'll know that the trademark was rejected
Speaker 2: last year as one cannot have exclusive rights to the
Speaker 2: name of a place. An American reviewer an orchard or
Speaker 2: an orchard. American Riviera is a commonly used place name
Speaker 2: to describe Santa Barbara, where she lives with Harry. There
Speaker 2: were other issues, apparently the o in the logo didn't
Speaker 2: look enough like a letter, and something about other food
Speaker 2: companies saying the name was too similar to theirs, which
Speaker 2: I don't think is that uncommon. Interestingly, American commentator and
Speaker 2: Royal reporter Kinsey Schofield said in October last year. She
Speaker 2: said that there were rumors that Netflix has said, allow
Speaker 2: us to manage the retail strategy if you can't find
Speaker 2: a CEO or somebody willing to work with you. They
Speaker 2: said this to Megan, and Netflix saw an opportunity there.
Speaker 2: And it's just interesting because that's exactly what has happened.
Speaker 1: Netflix so true, I'd forgotten about it.
Speaker 2: Has come on board as a partner. Meya. Meghan says
Speaker 2: the original name meant she was limited to things that
Speaker 2: she would have to manufacture and grow in the American
Speaker 2: riviera orchard. Do you buy it?
Speaker 1: I think it's great spin. I think it's really good spin.
Speaker 1: I think what I took away from this video is
Speaker 1: that Megan is picking up her influencing exactly where she
Speaker 1: left off around twenty fifteen twenty sixteen when she shut
Speaker 1: down the TIG and when social media and influencing really changed.
Speaker 1: And none of this is a disc at all because
Speaker 1: I know that I'm sort of the one on the
Speaker 1: show that's considered to be anti Meghan. I'm not at all.
Speaker 1: But my observation as to why people often or why
Speaker 1: people in the last few weeks have found this stuff
Speaker 1: it sort of feels a little bit out of step,
Speaker 1: and some people say it doesn't feel authentic or it
Speaker 1: feels fake. The more modern way to do it in
Speaker 1: the TikTok era is to be like a little bit
Speaker 1: like Ryan Reynolds at Saturday Night Live. I don't know
Speaker 1: if you've seen the fiftieth Birthday celebrations and he was
Speaker 1: in the audience. It's like Lively and Tina Fay and
Speaker 1: Amy Poehler were like, hey, Ryan, Reynolds in the audience
Speaker 1: and they're like, hey, Ryan, how you doing, And he's like,
Speaker 1: why what have you heard.
Speaker 2: Which, to be clear, is just as manufactured.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, totally, But it's not pretending that everything that
Speaker 1: everybody knows it's not gaslighting, and it's owning it and
Speaker 1: being honest about like he was making funny, is it.
Speaker 2: Gas lighting or is it someone don't we get to
Speaker 2: tell our own stories about copyright issues? Well, like what
Speaker 2: out of basic human right?
Speaker 1: She can do whatever she wants. But I'm just saying
Speaker 1: that if I was advising her, it would be just go, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, you might have heard a few copyright issues.
Speaker 1: Turns out American Riviera very popular. Luckily, back in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty two, I reserved another name because thinking about the
Speaker 1: name for a and can be quite hard. So on
Speaker 1: my short list was as ever, and here's why it's
Speaker 1: actually going to be even better.
Speaker 3: Also, to me his point, there were so many edits
Speaker 3: in that. So she kept in the start where Harry,
Speaker 3: of course says I've turned the camera on away, which is.
Speaker 2: Weird because it's selfimotes. So it's like, why would.
Speaker 1: Which was that was all very calculous and That's what
Speaker 1: I mean. People see through those tricks. Now. Ten years
Speaker 1: ago they would have been seen to be charming, or
Speaker 1: people wouldn't have picked up on them. But we've moved
Speaker 1: on and influencing his moved on, and because of TikTok
Speaker 1: and the desire for authenticity, we've also moved past the
Speaker 1: faux authenticity. They're oh so grateful. Oh my god, you guys,
Speaker 1: can you believe Netflix? You know, like all that feels disingenuous,
Speaker 1: Whereas I think the criticism of Meganofen is that she
Speaker 1: just can't have a laugh at herself.
Speaker 2: She said, Jam is her jam. That was very funny.
Speaker 2: Did you make that was funny?
Speaker 3: So, first of all, I want to make an observation
Speaker 3: about the name as Ever. I had a boss once
Speaker 3: who was a real famous, good writer, and this boss
Speaker 3: advised me to always sign my emails as Ever because
Speaker 3: he explained to me that whether you mean to diss
Speaker 3: someone or to say I still hate you, or to
Speaker 3: say you still annoy me, as Ever is the ultimate
Speaker 3: way to just be authentic to yourself but still appear
Speaker 3: polite to everyone you write to.
Speaker 1: It's a great name. I think it's so much better
Speaker 1: than America.
Speaker 2: Like as ever, fuck you yes exactly.
Speaker 3: The second thing I noticed about this name change is
Speaker 3: that there was some reporting by Puck recently about how
Speaker 3: Flamingo a state which is actually started by an Australian
Speaker 3: man named Richard Christensen and which I believe is sold
Speaker 3: in Mecca here in Australia, which spaced out of LA
Speaker 3: There was some reporting that Megan had asked to work
Speaker 3: with Richard on jams and to sort of collaborate, and
Speaker 3: that he had said that he didn't want to do that.
Speaker 3: So that's why she went off to start her own company.
Speaker 1: Is He a beauty brand?
Speaker 3: It started with soaps and candles right and now has
Speaker 3: moved into, among other things, jams, rose, et cetera. It's
Speaker 3: sort of a lifestyle.
Speaker 1: Brand, which I assume and not sold a Meca unlesson's
Speaker 1: been a while, and stuff in in Mecca.
Speaker 3: And so I think that by changing it to as Eva,
Speaker 3: she's we know that Megan's hyper sensitive to what people
Speaker 3: are saying about her online. I'm sure she tracks that's
Speaker 3: understandable in her course, and didn't like the idea that
Speaker 3: she was being reported as kind of a copycat or
Speaker 3: someone who was spurned from a collaboration, so started her
Speaker 3: own thing as ever is moving it away from that
Speaker 3: idea of a lifestyle brand rooted in place that he does,
Speaker 3: and it's more making it into more of a generic
Speaker 3: influencer brand.
Speaker 1: To any better. And it also says classic, right. I
Speaker 1: think her style is generally very classic. You know, she's
Speaker 1: in her white shirt, her simple necklace, her blue jeans.
Speaker 1: I think that is really true to her. Giving how
Speaker 1: she debuted on the World Stages. She remembers she went
Speaker 1: to that event with Harry wearing blue jeans and a
Speaker 1: white shirt, and that's her classic signature.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to give her a bit.
Speaker 2: More credit because people are saying I've seen the word
Speaker 2: gas lighting thrown around, which is, we know what happened,
Speaker 2: we know what happened with a copyright, and you're pretending
Speaker 2: like it didn't. I think this is a case of
Speaker 2: two things can be true, like, yes, there was the
Speaker 2: whole copyright issue, but she also might have looked at
Speaker 2: all the back and forth and gone, this isn't worth it.
Speaker 1: I can't say a very long name.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she rethought it, which I had this yesterday. I
Speaker 2: wrote a tagline for a podcast and we worked out
Speaker 2: that there was something incredibly wrong with it, and I
Speaker 2: was like, great, so we pivot.
Speaker 1: Oh no, totally. But my point is to take people
Speaker 1: along with you. What people expect now is pulling back
Speaker 1: the curtain, but in a real way, not going you know. So,
Speaker 1: here's why I changed it. And you're right, that could
Speaker 1: have been part of the reason that she changed it.
Speaker 1: But everybody knows about the track.
Speaker 2: I think we've heard story A and she's like, I'm
Speaker 2: just gonna throw story bas out there. This is my
Speaker 2: concern because she did. Let's not forget that she did
Speaker 2: send the jams out already. She sent the American reviewer.
Speaker 1: Richard Tigue and had them and she on bacon.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and is she going to be My concern is
Speaker 2: that Megan Mirkal becomes the boy who cried Jen No.
Speaker 2: That is a real yeah, because you can't just keep
Speaker 2: sending people jam and expecting them to spruk it. You've
Speaker 2: already used.
Speaker 1: She didn't mention dog treats either.
Speaker 2: I think it's going to be dog treats. I reckon
Speaker 2: it's going to be scented candles. I think we're going
Speaker 2: to have a tetwel and a fancy bas.
Speaker 1: We're not far away from learning what it is. I
Speaker 1: was slightly surprised about the Netflix connection, even though very
Speaker 1: good research.
Speaker 2: So Netflix is launching. I did some reading on it.
Speaker 2: It's like an Amazon storefront, like it's launching a shop.
Speaker 1: You were like, shoppable.
Speaker 2: That's really clever.
Speaker 1: So it'll also get all the affiliate links.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Smart. And you know she said word has been leaking out.
Speaker 1: I hadn't heard any words, so I think props to
Speaker 1: her for getting ahead of the new song.
Speaker 3: Apparently a news outlet was going to publish that she
Speaker 3: changed the name, so she was kind of forced into
Speaker 3: it a little bit.
Speaker 2: I liked the euphemism of the century, which was there's
Speaker 2: been a lot of curiosity about my.
Speaker 3: Business, a lot of people asking.
Speaker 2: A lot of asking, like are they asking or are
Speaker 2: they smearing you? In every publication in the entire world.
Speaker 3: But me, I think you're onto something with the idea
Speaker 3: that social media changed in the intervening years when she
Speaker 3: was off it, and it's sort of like, you know
Speaker 3: how people say that your persona is crystallized at the
Speaker 3: time you became famous. At the time she became famous,
Speaker 3: we were doing Instagram grids and CPR shots of a
Speaker 3: vocado toast and latte art.
Speaker 1: That was what we were doing, yes, and putting little
Speaker 1: flowers in ice school.
Speaker 3: Maybe it's some matchra if we were adventurous, but that
Speaker 3: was the vibe back then, and you could call this
Speaker 3: kind of like Instagram grid pr It feels like we've
Speaker 3: moved on to something much looser, and she's trying the
Speaker 3: loose with the Harry kicking off the video, but then
Speaker 3: you got the editing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that doesn't want We've also done not just looser,
Speaker 1: but also even Gwyneth Paltrow, who started with look at
Speaker 1: my expensive things, she has to sell these candle smells
Speaker 1: like a vagina.
Speaker 3: She now sells skincaret Target Yeah, and.
Speaker 1: Steaming vaginas because it wasn't enough for her to just
Speaker 1: be fancy.
Speaker 3: She doesn't sell steaming vaginas, I don't think.
Speaker 1: But hot steaming vaginas.
Speaker 2: That is a gap in the mine.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Come in a moment, why Elon Musk is suddenly covered
Speaker 2: in kids and the woman who regrets her open marriage
Speaker 2: and says she should have just had an affair instead.
Speaker 2: We discuss after the breaking.
Speaker 3: Every day is take your kids to work day at
Speaker 3: the White House. These days, you've probably seen the pictures
Speaker 3: of Elon Musks striding through the corridors of power in
Speaker 3: Washington with a four year old on his shoulders.
Speaker 1: I have seen that. And also you've been sending me
Speaker 1: links about a conservative influencer who's having his like twenty
Speaker 1: to fifteen.
Speaker 3: I'm obsessed and you're ignoring my lengths and that's hurtful.
Speaker 3: So now I'm going to sit here and explain the
Speaker 3: story to you, okay, while you have no choice in
Speaker 3: the matter. So the kid that Elon is carrying around
Speaker 3: on his shoulders is named Actually, I think we better
Speaker 3: hear from Elon himself on the name.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just X, the letter X and then
Speaker 2: the AE is pronounced ash. Yeah. Twelve is my contribution.
Speaker 6: Oh y twelve Archangel twelve, the precursor to the s
Speaker 6: R seventy one, coolest plain ever.
Speaker 1: So some people shouldn't be about to make more children
Speaker 1: more visually.
Speaker 3: I only just realized that when he was jumping around
Speaker 3: with Trump on stage during the election campaign, that was
Speaker 3: to create the X shape with his jump. Did you
Speaker 3: realize that now? And it took our entire production staff
Speaker 3: here to nut out their names and ages today and
Speaker 3: we're still not quite sure we've got them straight. Just
Speaker 3: this week, there's been another child announced. Ashley Saint Clair,
Speaker 3: who was a twenty six year old conservative influencer and author,
Speaker 3: said she had masks Baby earlier this year and that
Speaker 3: he has now ghosted her. This is what is no
Speaker 3: one in the business as a leopard face eating situation.
Speaker 2: I've never heard that.
Speaker 3: It means you might think leopards are glorious creatures and
Speaker 3: very dignified and elegant and beautiful, but one day, one day,
Speaker 3: they're going to eat your face.
Speaker 1: And I'll get you close you and they're going to
Speaker 1: eat your face.
Speaker 3: So Ashley and Elon are now squabbling on X the
Speaker 3: social media platform, not the child. Moving back to ex
Speaker 3: achild Ex, a child is in the White House acting
Speaker 3: in all sorts of age appropriate ways, and he also
Speaker 3: appears to have been doing things that a lot of
Speaker 3: world leaders might like to do, like he did appear
Speaker 3: to tell Donald Trump to shush your mouth, and he
Speaker 3: also wiped his snot on Trump's desk.
Speaker 1: So I like him.
Speaker 2: I like him.
Speaker 3: Ex is being a normal kid. That's not up for discussion.
Speaker 3: What I want to talk about today is the adults
Speaker 3: behavior in this Why is Musk doing this and how
Speaker 3: should we feel about it? In The Guardian, Awa Madawi
Speaker 3: had some theories about what she called Musk's pr strategy,
Speaker 3: and she wrote she didn't find it cute. She said,
Speaker 3: having a kid on your shoulders makes you seem less
Speaker 3: like a robber baron with a weird breeding fetish and
Speaker 3: more like a fun dad. But this is what I
Speaker 3: want to bring to you. Could it be a good
Speaker 3: thing to normalize children in all areas of life and
Speaker 3: to highlight look, dads also have to juggle work with parenting.
Speaker 3: And didn't we all celebrate Jacinda when she became the
Speaker 3: first world leader to attend the you in General Assembly
Speaker 3: with a baby?
Speaker 2: Remember how to Sindra Ardun was an elected official. I
Speaker 2: know that was a totally different point. Oh yeah, that yeah.
Speaker 2: That he has referred to X his child. This is
Speaker 2: a quote from Musk as a cuteness prop He's used
Speaker 2: that term. What riles me because I've seen these images
Speaker 2: and I've had to assess my own emotional reaction because
Speaker 2: part of me is thinking the White House government jobs
Speaker 2: for people who still have their jobs are full of
Speaker 2: working parents and they don't get to walk around with
Speaker 2: their kids on their shoulders, and in fact, that's not
Speaker 2: what most of childcare looks like parenting or parenting. I
Speaker 2: remembered that when Elon Musk took over Twitter now X
Speaker 2: he cut paid parentally from twenty weeks to fourteen days,
Speaker 2: and that captured it.
Speaker 3: Today are bringing receipts.
Speaker 2: I'm bringing receipts. That's what I just went. You are
Speaker 2: a business owner. You're telling me that on the floor
Speaker 2: of Tesla, you're gonna let your worker bring in their
Speaker 2: sick kid or if childcare falls through, you have any
Speaker 2: empathy for that? That to me to come in with
Speaker 2: your kids. Firstly, it's a prop and secondly it's taunting Grimes,
Speaker 2: Like I think that the context of his relationship with
Speaker 2: Grimes the mother of this child, he has more legal
Speaker 2: resources than anyone who's ever lived, and he's keeping Grimes
Speaker 2: from that child because he has this relationship. He's sort
Speaker 2: of admitted X is his favorite, like he's prodigy.
Speaker 1: Really yep, so does Grimes not see X?
Speaker 2: No, So he's kept Grimes from his child. They're like
Speaker 2: fighting in court and he says, oh, X mostly lives
Speaker 2: with me. Grimes has said, I want to see my
Speaker 2: own child and has said, I don't want my child
Speaker 2: in public like that, Like I feel deeply uncomfortable with
Speaker 2: his face being publicized. So I think it's taunting her
Speaker 2: on purpose.
Speaker 1: That's extraordinary. I didn't know that. I know that he
Speaker 1: keeps having all of these children with these women, and
Speaker 1: supposedly always by IVF because he doesn't always have romantic
Speaker 1: relationships with them. Even in the case of this conservative
Speaker 1: influencer Ashley Sinclair, she didn't.
Speaker 3: Well, we don't be his girlfriend. No, she didn't claim
Speaker 3: to be his girlfriend. It's interesting, Jesse, I think you're
Speaker 3: onto something with the idea of taunting Grimes because also
Speaker 3: this week he took his twins, Strider and as you were,
Speaker 3: who were three years old, and he had those children
Speaker 3: with chevon Zillis, who seems to be the only woman
Speaker 3: who is now actually seeking out Musk's company. He took
Speaker 3: her and those twins to meet with Indian Prime Minister
Speaker 3: Miranda Modi and the kids were playing on the floor
Speaker 3: as the Indian Prime Minister spoke with an unelected official
Speaker 3: who overstated his student visa in the US, and Chavonne
Speaker 3: was there, and it was really quite a contrast to
Speaker 3: what happened with grime.
Speaker 1: Why is he meeting with what? I mean, I guess
Speaker 1: he's a force onto his own right, But is he
Speaker 1: representing the US government in those meetings or we just
Speaker 1: don't know.
Speaker 3: We just don't know.
Speaker 2: Okay, apparently it had something to do with business stealings,
Speaker 2: but I also think there's something very revealing about business stealings.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so, yeah, they could hope.
Speaker 2: So yeah.
Speaker 3: I like that.
Speaker 2: You just you know, when you have a meeting in
Speaker 2: the Oval office and you're like, I might just have
Speaker 2: it there. Oh and here's my son. But the other
Speaker 2: thing that's very revealing is what his eldest children think
Speaker 2: of him, and they don't want anything to do with
Speaker 2: being in the public eye with him.
Speaker 3: And similar to Brad Pitt's kids.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which I just think that tells you something. Vivian
Speaker 2: Jenna Wilson, who is Elon Musk's daughter, she transitioned. She
Speaker 2: identifies as trans Elon Musk has spoken about her story
Speaker 2: in a way that she has expressed is incredibly hurtful.
Speaker 2: He has politicized it. He's sat there with you know,
Speaker 2: right wing pundits and dead named her. Whatever your politics,
Speaker 2: that's your flesh and blood.
Speaker 1: He has to weaponize the story of his own child.
Speaker 3: Also this week released a video where she explained how
Speaker 3: she learned of the existence of another sibling of hers
Speaker 3: on Reddit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they all find out, and that's what she says,
Speaker 2: is that she talks about a really you know, dire
Speaker 2: childhood and also you learn about siblings in the head lines.
Speaker 1: We've spoken about Brian Johnson on this show before, the
Speaker 1: guy who's trying to buio hack his whole body and
Speaker 1: live forever. This whole thing with having lots and lots.
Speaker 2: Of children pronatalism.
Speaker 1: Can you explain that.
Speaker 2: The thing with the tech bros seems to be almost
Speaker 2: a eugenic The world needs more elands.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So this is a movement that started in Silicon
Speaker 3: Valley a few years ago, and basically its proponents are
Speaker 3: convinced that low birth rates are the greatest danger to civilization.
Speaker 3: Forget climate change, we need more vehicles.
Speaker 2: Which it has a grain of truth to it, though
Speaker 2: our declining birth rate taxes is an issue.
Speaker 3: And in particular self appointed smart people need to have
Speaker 3: more children to ensure the survival of the human race.
Speaker 3: Mask actually said it a summit last year. If people
Speaker 3: don't have more children, civilization is going to crumble mark
Speaker 3: my words. So I think there's something a little sinister
Speaker 3: in this too.
Speaker 1: Well. Also is very different when you're in l on
Speaker 1: Musk and you can have lots of children versus someone
Speaker 1: who has no health insurance, yeah, and can't pay chi
Speaker 1: and can't pay for charter.
Speaker 3: Or apparently he's not helping allegedly not helping Ashley out
Speaker 3: with any of her childcare expenses.
Speaker 1: I wonder if there's a like a process like a submissions,
Speaker 1: if there's just an email address that you apply to
Speaker 1: just for some of his sperm, and if anyone vets it,
Speaker 1: or it's just pretty much like if you want it,
Speaker 1: here you go.
Speaker 2: Apparently we're not wearing Apple watches on our wrists anymore,
Speaker 2: and Amelia clearly didn't get the memo. So The New
Speaker 2: York Times published a story this month with the headline
Speaker 2: an ankle monitor, No, that's my Apple Watch. The reason
Speaker 2: is that apparently it improves step tracking. I've found this
Speaker 2: with pushing a pram. It doesn't get my steps in
Speaker 2: and your hand. Yeah, I think treadmill desks and that
Speaker 2: kind of stuff, you're not getting steps. In certain professions.
Speaker 2: You can't wear a watch like a nurse like a surgeon.
Speaker 1: But you can tuck it like a hand model.
Speaker 2: In exactly, you can put it on your ankle. Tattoos
Speaker 2: mess up with the heart rate sensor, and a lot
Speaker 2: of people have press tattoos. Yeah, and final reason is
Speaker 2: personal style. I have a friend who tells me that
Speaker 2: my Apple watch makes me look like a spy kid.
Speaker 2: And she said that her greatest fear kept drop at
Speaker 2: night was the idea of me walking down the aisle
Speaker 2: with my Apple Watch on because she knew I wanted.
Speaker 3: It's not true, you are a bit of a spy kid.
Speaker 2: I really like it. And to this day, I don't
Speaker 2: know wedding day, how many steps. I don't know if
Speaker 2: it was a good day, if it was a bad day. Now, Amelia,
Speaker 2: will you be moving your watch to your ankle?
Speaker 3: No, I won't be. Despite the fact that Mia has
Speaker 3: issued a fashion edict that I need to get a
Speaker 3: new wristband.
Speaker 1: Like the color of a dead body.
Speaker 3: The color of a dead body.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's made of I don't know, plastic.
Speaker 2: I think it's the color maybe of a brain.
Speaker 1: Could be she's doing it a little secret flex. I
Speaker 1: funnily enough, just moved to a cassio old fashioned digital watch.
Speaker 2: Have you considered wearing that on your ankle?
Speaker 1: No, but I might now that I'm not using my
Speaker 1: Apple Watch on my wrists so much anymore, maybe I'll
Speaker 1: strap it to my ankle. A little bit tricky to
Speaker 1: look at the time or to use Siri.
Speaker 3: It's true, maybe look. The whole reason they have this
Speaker 3: is mostly for the whole time telling element.
Speaker 1: So I wonder if the double advantage is that you
Speaker 1: become a little bit more bendy because you constantly.
Speaker 2: I want a strap that says this is not an
Speaker 2: angle monitor, because it does look that's exactly.
Speaker 1: And I like people to think that I was maybe
Speaker 1: an escaped prisoner evading home detention at loud As. I
Speaker 1: know it's only February, but who needs a little break
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Speaker 2: Draw is on the fourth of March. Teaes and seasupply.
Speaker 1: After the break. Why twenty twenty five is the year
Speaker 1: of the Open Marriage.
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively from Muma Maya. Subscribers follow the link
Speaker 2: in the show notes to get us in your ears
Speaker 2: five days a week and a huge thank you to
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers.
Speaker 1: Just like barrel leg jeans, open marriages appear to be
Speaker 1: having a moment. Nearly one in three unmarried Americans report
Speaker 1: having been in a consensually non monogamous relationship at some point,
Speaker 1: so consensual non monogamy or an open marriage or polyamory
Speaker 1: is distinct from cheating, which usually happens secret where only
Speaker 1: one person knows about it. In Australia, there was a
Speaker 1: survey in twenty twenty three of fifty thousand people, and
Speaker 1: that revealed about one point four of them were currently
Speaker 1: in an open relationship, so it's definitely growing. And dating
Speaker 1: apps like Field say that they have seen up to
Speaker 1: a five hundred percent increase in users, including terms like
Speaker 1: ethically non monogamous, or polyamorous or open in their profiles,
Speaker 1: and OkCupid has also reported similar growth. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of gossip about high profile figures in the media and
Speaker 1: Hollywood about who is in an open relationship that we
Speaker 1: cannot repeat here. But the question is is it a
Speaker 1: good idea? Well maybe for some, but not for everybody.
Speaker 1: There was an essay in the Cut this week called
Speaker 1: I Opened my marriage Maybe I should have tried an
Speaker 1: affair instead, by a writer called Haley Moltech, and she
Speaker 1: wrote about her experience. She got married to her high
Speaker 1: school sweetheart. She'd been dating this guy since they was
Speaker 1: boy sixteen, and a few months into their marriage in
Speaker 1: that first year, they opened it up. And writing about
Speaker 1: how she explored her motivation to do this, she wrote,
Speaker 1: there was a real desire at the beginning of my
Speaker 1: attempts at an open marriage. That desire fit perfectly over
Speaker 1: what I was too afraid to admit that I wanted
Speaker 1: a feeling more than I wanted anything else, that I
Speaker 1: wanted it so badly, but somehow not badly enough to
Speaker 1: do anything smart or kind for everyone involved and leave
Speaker 1: my marriage. I thought that was so interesting, And then
Speaker 1: she sort of talks more about is it infidelity to
Speaker 1: have a flicker of desire for another person or to
Speaker 1: foster an unexpected crush. Did I want the right to
Speaker 1: act on every impulse or did I only want to
Speaker 1: retain the right to a realm of feeling that remained
Speaker 1: my own. If what we need is a secret, then
Speaker 1: there's no form of communication that will help. If what
Speaker 1: we need is freedom, then there is no form of
Speaker 1: forever we can trust. Amelia, why do you think there
Speaker 1: is this movement now to open marriages? What's different about
Speaker 1: this point in time stick of the partners they might
Speaker 1: have been within the pandemic.
Speaker 3: I do think there's been a real seed change. Obviously,
Speaker 3: non monogamous relationships have always existed. But I kept thinking
Speaker 3: about do you remember that iconic scene and when Harry
Speaker 3: met Sally, which is, by the way, twenty five years old. Now,
Speaker 3: Carrie Fisher's character is in bed with her husband, and
Speaker 3: both of them have fielded calls from Meg Ryan and
Speaker 3: Billy Crystal about how awful dating is. And Carrie Fisher
Speaker 3: turns to her husband and she says, tell me, I'll
Speaker 3: never have to be out there again. And her husband says,
Speaker 3: You'll never have to be out there again, and he
Speaker 3: puts an arm around her. And the whole point is
Speaker 3: dating is awful. The whole point of getting someone is
Speaker 3: that you don't have to keep dating. And what's interesting
Speaker 3: about that article is I thought it was a wonderfully
Speaker 3: written article and it really gave me an insight into
Speaker 3: why people do this. But they had been together since
Speaker 3: high school, and I wonder if there's some element in
Speaker 3: relationships which have been going for so long from such
Speaker 3: a young age, where it's only natural that you might
Speaker 3: get to the point where you need a bit of
Speaker 3: novelty and things.
Speaker 1: And exploring other versions of yourself, because something that people
Speaker 1: talk about in long term relationships is that you don't
Speaker 1: always like what you see when you look at yourself
Speaker 1: through that person's eyes because of the drudgery and the
Speaker 1: history of everything you've been together, which in some ways
Speaker 1: is intimacy. But as Esther Perel says that familiarity can
Speaker 1: breed out desire. So I think that as awful as
Speaker 1: you say dating is, I think what can be attractive
Speaker 1: about it to people who've been in long term relationships
Speaker 1: is that excitement.
Speaker 3: Yeah, breed out desire is a perfect explanation for the
Speaker 3: look my husband gave me this morning when I asked
Speaker 3: him to clean the kitchen on my way out the door.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you see too much of someone. And I think
Speaker 2: sometimes it's actually the desire to have a secret. And
Speaker 2: that's what I was thinking reading this, is that if
Speaker 2: you have an open marriage, that it isn't scratched, because
Speaker 2: then you have to have all these awkward conversation She
Speaker 2: writes about the language, the corny and embarrassing language that
Speaker 2: you have to use, that's all about boundary setting and
Speaker 2: the rules and all that, which isn't very sexy. So
Speaker 2: I think that for a lot of people it doesn't work.
Speaker 2: And I've always thought, I think this is sort of
Speaker 2: what the writer was talking about, that if you have
Speaker 2: an open marriage, or if you have an affair, then
Speaker 2: you often fall into a state of something called limerence
Speaker 2: with someone. So if I was in an open marriage
Speaker 2: and I went and met someone in an ideal world,
Speaker 2: I could keep this kind of world spinning, and that's
Speaker 2: all great, And then I go and dip out of
Speaker 2: this when it suits me. That's not how desire works.
Speaker 2: Like Limerens. This thing that you get in the really
Speaker 2: early stages of a relationship with someone, the butterflies that
Speaker 2: can't sleep, the obsession, las satuation. The last has to
Speaker 2: take like it has to take from something. And if
Speaker 2: that's what you're after, I think it's like it is
Speaker 2: like a finite pie.
Speaker 1: Here's what Esther Parrel, the relationships expert and guru, said
Speaker 1: about why modern relationships and modern monogamy is just not
Speaker 1: the answer for everybody anymore.
Speaker 5: So.
Speaker 6: Reconciling our need for security and our need for adventure
Speaker 6: into one relationship, or what we today like to call
Speaker 6: a passionate marriage, used to be a contradiction. In terms,
Speaker 6: marriage was an economic institution in which you were given
Speaker 6: a partnership for life in terms of children and social
Speaker 6: status and succession and companionship. But now we want our
Speaker 6: partner to still give us all these things. But in addition,
Speaker 6: I want you to be my best friend and my
Speaker 6: trusted confidant and my passionate lover to boot and we
Speaker 6: live twice as long. So we come to one person
Speaker 6: and we basically are asking them to give us what
Speaker 6: wants an entire village used to provide.
Speaker 1: Is this idea of why open marriages are becoming more
Speaker 1: popular just because for some people they're accepting that they
Speaker 1: can't get everything from one person and it's healthy.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I thought that this Esther Perel remark was really
Speaker 3: interesting because I think often the knock on an open
Speaker 3: marriage is that it is a way of essentially ending
Speaker 3: the marriage. It's sort of like a stop gap on
Speaker 3: the way to accepting the inevitable that the marriage has
Speaker 3: run its course. But what I think Parrel is saying
Speaker 3: is that it doesn't have to be like that. In fact,
Speaker 3: it can be a way to ensure the relationships survival
Speaker 3: by taking the pressure off your romantic partner now that
Speaker 3: we expect them to be everything. It's a way of
Speaker 3: turning outwoods rather than caving in on each other. And
Speaker 3: I don't think it's a coincidence that we're seeing this
Speaker 3: profusion of open marriages at a time when childcare has
Speaker 3: become reduced to often just what the nuclear family can offer.
Speaker 3: So you are running a daycare and a nonprofit daycare
Speaker 3: in addition to trying to keep some kind of romantic
Speaker 3: spark alive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Esther Perel also says that there are two
Speaker 2: different times of relationships. One focuses on exclusiveness that's really
Speaker 2: critical to some people's sense of what makes a romantic relationship,
Speaker 2: and the other is uniqueness. And if you believe that
Speaker 2: you have something unique with that partner, then it doesn't
Speaker 2: matter if there are other partners involved too. But I
Speaker 2: also thought, you know, the writer said non monogamy works
Speaker 2: just about as well as monogamy does, which is not
Speaker 2: very Whether or not she opened her marriage, would this
Speaker 2: relationship have ended. Probably, It's hard to tell whether any
Speaker 2: of this works because relationships end every day for all
Speaker 2: different types of reasons.
Speaker 3: And also, I don't think that it's a coincidence either
Speaker 3: that what I've been hearing from people anecdotally in my
Speaker 3: circles is that they're opening their marriages at the time
Speaker 3: that they have little kids. And to me, at first,
Speaker 3: that was really confusing because they thought that there's no
Speaker 3: time or energy at that point. But maybe that's exactly
Speaker 3: why they're doing it then, because there are so many
Speaker 3: demands on their time and they're feeling so stretched in
Speaker 3: their relationship that they need to outsource.
Speaker 1: And are you feeling sexy when you've got little kids
Speaker 1: or is that the whole point that you see yourself
Speaker 1: in your partner's eyes as a mother? Yeah, and obviously
Speaker 1: you know your children are a lot of you. So
Speaker 1: to me, that was my strongest time of identity as
Speaker 1: a mother and my biggest what do you call it
Speaker 1: mattressence when I went from being a woman to being
Speaker 1: a mother. And do you think that people are opening
Speaker 1: up their marriages at that point because by being with
Speaker 1: someone outside of that family, Yes.
Speaker 2: They don't have to be the mother.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't have to be the mother, you know,
Speaker 1: you get to be just the sexy woman again.
Speaker 3: But I was intrigued by the legitimatics of it, because
Speaker 3: you know, you've got to account for every minute of
Speaker 3: your time when you have little kids. And so I've
Speaker 3: been asking how people do it, and then apparently the
Speaker 3: most common way of handling it in a heterosexual couple
Speaker 3: where they have children is that one partner does one
Speaker 3: week with the kids and then the other goes off
Speaker 3: for their sort of fantasy life and the enactment of
Speaker 3: that for a week and then they swap back again.
Speaker 1: We know that the divorce rates going up and up.
Speaker 2: I thought it wasn't well.
Speaker 3: Interestingly, the marriage rate, which I didn't realize this, has
Speaker 3: been declining for five decades. There was this little bump
Speaker 3: after COVID, but now it's still going down again. People
Speaker 3: I think disenchanted with the whole idea, and also life
Speaker 3: expectancy is esther for all points that has gone up
Speaker 3: at the same time.
Speaker 1: What's interesting is that the demographics where this is most popular,
Speaker 1: unsurprisingly is young people and in queer communities. So Dad Savage,
Speaker 1: who's a very well known sex and relationship agony uncle,
Speaker 1: I guess he has for many decades been very open
Speaker 1: about the fact that he's in a monogamish relationship is
Speaker 1: how he calls it, and he talks about how in
Speaker 1: the gay community that's actually quite common in the male
Speaker 1: gay community, and in queer communities that's also become more
Speaker 1: common than perhaps among straight people.
Speaker 2: I think queer communities have had this incredible freedom to
Speaker 2: make their own rules, and straight people are learning a.
Speaker 1: Lot from them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a big thank you to all of you. The
Speaker 2: out louders for listening to today's show and our fabulous
Speaker 2: team for putting this show together. We will be back
Speaker 2: in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 1: But before we go, if you can't get enough of
Speaker 1: Apple Side of Vinegar and Jesse, you said that it's
Speaker 1: now number three on Netflix globally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's going off all around the world. It's been
Speaker 2: really interesting to watch the US process this story. But
Speaker 2: it's number one in Highland, number one in New Zealand.
Speaker 1: You told me another fun fact about one of the
Speaker 1: stars of the show.
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Okay, you know Lucy. I haven't told
Speaker 2: you this yet a million you know. Oh, you haven't
Speaker 2: watched the show. But Lucy, who made much to you,
Speaker 2: stars as woman who's living with cancer and doing the
Speaker 2: traditional therapies. She is the girlfriend of Dev Patel. Oh wow,
Speaker 2: I didn't think.
Speaker 1: I know, the wife of one of the journalist and
Speaker 1: she's Ozzy and Ozzie is with that and they've been
Speaker 1: together for almost ten years, A long time.
Speaker 2: I love it.
Speaker 1: Anyway, where was I? So we can't get enough of
Speaker 1: this show and the Bell Gibson story, So we have
Speaker 1: unpacked the actual story. We've spoken a lot on the
Speaker 1: show about and aspects of this story, but in terms
Speaker 1: of our review of the show itself and our recap,
Speaker 1: we've recorded a whole subscriber episode and it includes the
Speaker 1: scenes that we love the most, the actors, the script
Speaker 1: to all of it. We will put a link to
Speaker 1: that episode in the show notes and we'll see you tomorrow.
Speaker 2: Bye bye. Shout out to any Mum and mea subscribers listening.
Speaker 2: If you love the show and you want to support us,
Speaker 2: subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very best way to
Speaker 2: do so. There's a link in the episode description.