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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Mumma out Loud. It is Monday, the sixteenth

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Speaker 3: of June. I'm Jesse Stevens, I'm mea Friedman.

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Speaker 2: And I'm m Van m filling in for Holly And

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Speaker 2: on the.

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Speaker 1: Show today, everyone's talking about the only survivor of last

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Speaker 1: week's Air India one seven to one crash. So should

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Speaker 1: we all be booking seat eleven A on our next flight?

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Speaker 1: One of the worst trolls on the Internet has finally

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Speaker 1: had their identity revealed, but not before making millions of

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Speaker 1: dollars from hate and will we be able to resist

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Speaker 1: taking the drama bait that Sabrina Carpenter is serving with

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Speaker 1: her new album cover where she's on her knees having

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Speaker 1: her hair pulled. No, we're going in, but.

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Speaker 3: First, in case you missed it, you might be wondering

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Speaker 3: why No King's protests erupted all over the US over

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Speaker 3: the weekend and what that has to do with a

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Speaker 3: very awkward military parade held in Washington.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was one of those things where I read

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Speaker 1: No King's protests, and I thought that they were connected

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Speaker 1: to last week's la riots, and I sort of no

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Speaker 1: one really explained what no kings meant.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, so let's start at the beginning. Basically, President

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump finally held a military parade, which he's wanted

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Speaker 3: to do for ages. Talked about that at the beginning

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Speaker 3: of his first term, that it's something he wanted to do.

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Speaker 1: They do it in North Korea, and he's a big

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Speaker 1: fan of Kim Jong Russia.

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Speaker 3: Putin also loves the military parade.

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Speaker 2: Aren't military is quite busy?

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Speaker 3: You would think that they have better things to do.

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Speaker 3: So the celebration of the US Army's two hundred and

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Speaker 3: fiftieth anniversary just coincidentally coincided with Trump's seventy ninth birthday.

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Speaker 3: And at the estimated cost of forty five million US

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Speaker 3: dollars that's about sixty nine million Australian dollars, this is

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Speaker 3: at a time when the American economy is under a

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Speaker 3: lot of scrutiny, and it's just a lot of spending.

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Speaker 3: He had tanks and soldiers parade down the streets of Washington.

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Speaker 3: So the event happened over the weekend, and he said.

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Speaker 4: Time and again, America's enemies have learned that if you

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Speaker 4: threatened the American people, our soldiers are coming for you,

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Speaker 4: your defeat will be certain, your demise will be final,

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Speaker 4: and your downfall will be total and complete.

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Speaker 3: He then threatened America's enemies, and he walked up the

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Speaker 3: stage to chance of USA USA.

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Speaker 2: So with this parade, I'm confused on who it was

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Speaker 2: actually four because it felt like a big celebration of America.

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Speaker 2: But yet it also felt like I was trying to

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Speaker 2: tell the rest of the world something.

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Speaker 3: That's such a good point. It felt like a show,

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Speaker 3: like a point was being made about the strength of

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Speaker 3: the American military, which historically does it tasting. The last

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Speaker 3: time something like this happened was in the early nineties

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Speaker 3: and it was to signify the end of the Gulf War.

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Speaker 3: It was just unclear why you would just have this

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Speaker 3: military show.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Trump loves these displays of authoritarianism, and it's

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Speaker 1: like from his gold toilet to it's king behavior. It's

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Speaker 1: king behavior, it's giving king behavior.

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Speaker 3: It's really hard with reports, right because obviously there's inherent

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Speaker 3: bias on both sides. But I tried to look objectively,

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Speaker 3: and it does seem like the parade was set up

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Speaker 3: for a lot of spectators and that there were sort

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Speaker 3: of maybe ten thousand.

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Speaker 2: It looked like the tek toks were so cringe like

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Speaker 2: you could just see the tanks going down the street

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Speaker 2: and it's complete silence.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it did seem a little bit awkward. And to

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Speaker 3: contrast with that, it did seem like they anticipated a

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Speaker 3: certain amount of spectators and that many people didn't show up,

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Speaker 3: which brings us to the protests. Literally millions of people

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Speaker 3: in the US turned out to No King's protests all

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Speaker 3: over the country, opposing not just the military parade, but

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Speaker 3: Trump's totalitarian approach to his presidencies and the excesses. And

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Speaker 3: also it's called No Kings because in seventeen seventy six,

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Speaker 3: as Hamilton fans will know, America decided that they were

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Speaker 3: separate from the monarchy, unlike Australia, unlike Canada. They said,

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Speaker 3: we do not want a king like independence and democracy

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Speaker 3: and freedom is foundational to the US. So for someone

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Speaker 3: to come in and behave like a king is so

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Speaker 3: anti American in a way that clearly has riled a

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Speaker 3: lot of Americans.

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Speaker 1: Are well, it used to be. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: it still is, and I mean I just kept thinking

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Speaker 1: Trump will be stoked at the idea that he's a king.

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Speaker 3: Yeah right, even the yeah, oh you think I'm a king.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like, yeah, I'm king. And funnily enough, the

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Speaker 1: Trooping of the Color, which is the big parade in

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Speaker 1: the UK that is overseen by the actual king being

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Speaker 1: Charles Now, I mean probably the footage that you saw

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Speaker 1: of that was Louis pulling faces because he is MVP

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Speaker 1: of the royal family. So the no King's protests had

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with the ice raids and the immigration protests,

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Speaker 1: so they in LA last week.

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Speaker 3: They are somewhat related because a lot of the people

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Speaker 3: who showed up are also going the immigration policies are

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Speaker 3: and overreach. They're saying that's not something that and there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of questions about that, like the bill, and

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Speaker 3: so people went in solidarity for what's happening all over

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Speaker 3: the US. But literally millions in all of these capital

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Speaker 3: cities went and protested, and Trump kind of warned that

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Speaker 3: anyone who protested in Washington would face the full extent

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Speaker 3: of the law and blah blah blah. But it felt

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Speaker 3: significant because there is so much unrest globally, and it

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Speaker 3: was like the US was saying, we are putting our

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Speaker 3: foot down. These were the biggest protests against Trump ever,

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Speaker 3: and they were saying, we want to defend out democracy.

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Speaker 1: The last time we saw such big protests across the

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Speaker 1: US and in fact across the world was after he

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Speaker 1: was first elected in twenty sixteen. Do you remember the

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Speaker 1: Women's March when everyone was wearing those pink pussy hats.

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Speaker 1: I went on a Sydney version of one. There were

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Speaker 1: that helped a lot. I'm glad I did that. I

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Speaker 1: think that there's something Protests don't necessarily make actual change,

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Speaker 1: but if you've ever been to one, there's something very

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Speaker 1: cathartic about feeling that you are actually doing something, even

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Speaker 1: if it's not going to change anything. And I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, me marching down a street with my daughter

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Speaker 1: and my mum and thousands of other women in Sydney

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Speaker 1: certainly wasn't going to change the election of Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: or in fact the reelection of Donald Trump. But there's

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Speaker 1: something about being with like minded people that I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I like a protest. It was also a peaceful protest.

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Speaker 3: It was also enormously symbolic because this military one was

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Speaker 3: happening at a time where citizens were saying, look at

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Speaker 3: how many people turned up to this this kind of

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Speaker 3: maga event, and this is how many people are opposing it,

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Speaker 3: even though most recent there was a poll done recently

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Speaker 3: and most Americans are in support of the immigration policies,

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Speaker 3: like they look unpopular because of how unpopular they are

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Speaker 3: in California, but most Americans are just like, yeah, we

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Speaker 3: need to crack down on immigration.

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Speaker 1: Popstars Sabrina Carpenter, who I once heard described as that

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Speaker 1: former child star who wears no pants and likes to

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Speaker 1: get raded, released what may or may not be the

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Speaker 1: cover of her new album on the weekend, and if

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Speaker 1: you're a woman on the internet, you are legally obliged

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Speaker 1: to have an opinion about it. So here we are, Okay.

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Speaker 1: The photo is of her if you haven't seen it,

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Speaker 1: in a short black dress and heels, kneeling on all

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Speaker 1: fours with a man standing in front of her. You

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Speaker 1: can't see his face.

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Speaker 3: Could be a woman en trousers.

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Speaker 1: Oh, could be this person who looks like a man

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Speaker 1: in suit pants is pulling her hair as if they're pulling.

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Speaker 1: He's got a fist full of hair, fistful of hair

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Speaker 1: and it's like he's pulling her up while she looks

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Speaker 1: at the camera hornly.

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Speaker 3: Kind of like a dog on alish.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And then the next photo is of an actual

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Speaker 1: dog with a dog tag saying Man's best Friend, which

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Speaker 1: is the name of her album I think Anyway. She

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Speaker 1: also released her first single from the album called Manchild,

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Speaker 1: which sounds like this colon. Now that film clip is

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Speaker 1: all about her hitchhiking and some like denim underpants with

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Speaker 1: all these unsuitable guys and look Serena Carpenter. Her brand

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Speaker 1: is all sort of about sassy girlishness, a bit like

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Speaker 1: pollypocket meets brat dolls.

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Speaker 3: Yep, sexy baby.

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Speaker 1: Sexy baby, and what she does is actually some very

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Speaker 1: funny things with her lyrics. She uses humor a lot

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Speaker 1: in her music. So my favorite lyrics from Manchild is

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Speaker 1: why so sexy? If so dumb? And how survived the

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Speaker 1: earth so long? If I'm not there, it won't get done.

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Speaker 1: I choose to blame your mum.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 1: The question, of course, is when is a photo about

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Speaker 1: female submission subversive and ironic and when is it just

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Speaker 1: a bit yuck? Some people are shouting don't kink shame.

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Speaker 1: Let the girl be submissive if she wants to be.

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Speaker 1: Some are shouting, this looks like domestic violence, glamour porn.

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Speaker 1: Others are shouting, wait until the whole album and cover

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Speaker 1: art comes out, don't judge too soon. And of course,

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Speaker 1: just like when any woman does a controversial thing, some

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Speaker 1: people are calling it the death of feminism. So are

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Speaker 1: we all just falling for rage bait? I'm so tired. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it is rage bait, and talk us through.

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Speaker 2: I made the mistake of publicly talking about this a

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Speaker 2: bit too early on, and I got a lot of.

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Speaker 1: Hate for it.

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Speaker 3: What position did you take?

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Speaker 2: I took the position of I've been a huge, huge

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Speaker 2: Sabrina Carpenter fan. I've loved everything she does. She even

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Speaker 2: does like sex positions on her stage when she's performing.

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Speaker 3: Still a big fan of that.

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Speaker 2: When I saw this artwork, it deeply upset me, and

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Speaker 2: I was trying to figure out what about it made

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Speaker 2: me so upset, And I think it's quite straightforward to me.

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Speaker 2: I think her doing that position I would be fine with.

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Speaker 2: It's the man in the photo that has made me

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Speaker 2: really upset, and I think it's gone from her constantly

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Speaker 2: saying like being female in power and having all of

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Speaker 2: these songs that are pretty much like, don't deal with

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Speaker 2: shitty men, You're better than that. And it would always

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Speaker 2: contrast with what she was wearing and the look she

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Speaker 2: put out there, and I'd still get it, Like, I

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Speaker 2: still thought it was quite empowering. But then this album

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Speaker 2: cover is not empowering to me. It just feels degrading.

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Speaker 3: Here's my question, because the criticism is pandering to the

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Speaker 3: male gaze and she's on all fours. Have you ever

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Speaker 3: met a male Sabrina Carpenter fan who's not a queer man,

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Speaker 3: like if she's really pandering to the straight male gaze,

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Speaker 3: because I don't know any of them who listened to

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Speaker 3: her music, like Sabrina Carpenter and her team know who

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Speaker 3: her audience is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's we have internalized the male gaze so

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Speaker 1: much as women that that's not a new thing. So

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Speaker 1: you know, Britney Spears didn't have a lot of straight

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Speaker 1: male fans, but she would wear a little sexy school

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Speaker 1: girl uniform. It's been that way since the dawn of time,

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Speaker 1: that as straight women, we've internalized what the male gaze

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Speaker 1: is like the Kardashians. Men don't buy the Kardashians products,

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Speaker 1: but they are very male gaze coded. So this is

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Speaker 1: to me very male gaze coded. But some people say, well,

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Speaker 1: what about if submission is your thing?

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Speaker 3: To that, I say, I don't think there is anything

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Speaker 3: submissive about Sabrina Carpenter. If you watch her shows on stage,

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Speaker 3: as you say, am, it's about sex positions. Her lyrics

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Speaker 3: are about.

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Speaker 1: Her being in control, her.

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Speaker 3: Being in control, and even this, I think there's more

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Speaker 3: to it. I think it's a bit of a cop

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Speaker 3: out when celebrities are like, this is only one bit,

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Speaker 3: and it's like, no, this does stand alone as a

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Speaker 3: cultural tech.

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Speaker 2: I think we can criticize this without hearing the whole album.

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Speaker 3: I completely agree. And if we do discover that it

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Speaker 3: zooms out and that that man has the face of

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Speaker 3: Sabrina Carpenter, you still bait at us, ye, like you did. Well,

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Speaker 3: it's clickbait, right, yeah, that's exactly what they're doing. But

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Speaker 3: I know that she's on on fours and stuff. But

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Speaker 3: the name of the album being man Best Friend, which

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Speaker 3: is a dog, which is a bitch? Like is she

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Speaker 3: playing with bitch? And is she playing with and a

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Speaker 3: lot of the lyrics as well. Is she kind of

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Speaker 3: meant to be severing a lot of what we think

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Speaker 3: about the submissive woman. And I can see that being

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Speaker 3: playful and fun in the same way. I was watching

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Speaker 3: the Alex Cooper documentary and like when she talks about

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Speaker 3: blowjobs on.

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Speaker 1: Stage, the gluck gluck nine thousand, exactly.

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Speaker 3: She's not pandering to the male gaze. Just because women

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Speaker 3: are doing something sexual or talking about sex doesn't mean

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Speaker 3: they're trying to get railed, as the Internet says.

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Speaker 1: Sorr when the Internet was talking about being railed. Being

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Speaker 1: railed is not a negative thing. Being railed doesn't imply

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Speaker 1: necessarily a lack of consent, to my understanding. It's more

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Speaker 1: that she's very sex positive, so hence they're doing the

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Speaker 1: sex positions in her concerts. And that's been one of

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Speaker 1: these things that hopefully this there's a long history of

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Speaker 1: child stars trying to shock their fans out of seeing

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Speaker 1: them in a different way.

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Speaker 3: The Disney Star sort of one eighty.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and maybe this is going to be the death

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Speaker 1: knell in women saying, or mothers particularly saying, I took

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Speaker 1: my child to the Sabrina Carpenter concert or the you

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Speaker 1: know chapel rone concert or whatever, and she swore and

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Speaker 1: I don't like that. And it's like when we started

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Speaker 1: seeing it was kind of around Taylor Swift that we

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Speaker 1: started seeing female pop stars as something for little girls.

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Speaker 1: And probably that's not a good thing.

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Speaker 2: But I still think she has some sort of responsibility

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Speaker 2: here because she is selling tickets to young girls.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's not like she's not a wiggle. If

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Speaker 1: people want to bring their young girls and the people

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Speaker 1: that buy tickets for young girls are their mothers, that's

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Speaker 1: up to the parents. She's not parenting a generation of children.

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Speaker 3: Do you think though, that this image as well, there's

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Speaker 3: Sabrina Carpenter aesthetic, which is the blonde, the short, the

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Speaker 3: very made up, has become almost like Maga coded. And

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking this with Sidney Sweeney too, is that in

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Speaker 3: Trump's America, when women's rights are being wound back and

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Speaker 3: when women do feel like they are being pushed into

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Speaker 3: an oppressed, submissive position, that this isn't funny anymore, that

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Speaker 3: this isn't fair.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. Her lyrics don't say that. So in

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Speaker 1: some ways her appearance is a trojan horse because she

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Speaker 1: looks this way, but then she subverts your expectations because

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Speaker 1: she doesn't sing about being a trad wife, not.

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Speaker 3: Unlike Dolly Putton. Yes, like the same thing where it's

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Speaker 3: kind of the boobs, and but then it's like, do

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Speaker 3: we just I mean the thing about don't judge an

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Speaker 3: album by its cover or whatever. Again, this was released

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Speaker 3: as a cultural text and maybe the discussion and if

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Speaker 3: this is even a trojan horse to just get us

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Speaker 3: all to listen to her music, which is presenting a

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Speaker 3: different image than I get that, but I do think

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Speaker 3: this is being read differently in an America that feels

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Speaker 3: under threat.

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Speaker 2: Coming back to saying straight men aren't fans of Sbrina Carpet,

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Speaker 2: I agree. I don't think a lot of them are,

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Speaker 2: but they still follow her. Every guy I've dated has

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Speaker 2: followed Sabrina Carpenter on Instagram. Interesting and I do not

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Speaker 2: suggest anyone go down this rabbit hole, but I went

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Speaker 2: down a full reddit rabbit hole that was connected to

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Speaker 2: a Twitter account that was connected to another subreddit. Of

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Speaker 2: these men who just get the privilege of looking at

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Speaker 2: this image and making comments like can't wait to add

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Speaker 2: this to the wank bank. Oh, I was going to say,

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Speaker 2: and do you think these men care that we're having

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Speaker 2: this discussion on whether this is female empowerment or not.

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Speaker 2: They just get permission to look at a photo like that,

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Speaker 2: and they also get permission from the women around them

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Speaker 2: to say, this is empowering. You can do that.

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Speaker 1: Bitches love it when you pull their hair, and some do.

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Speaker 2: And I think that is where the harmful aspect of

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Speaker 2: it comes from.

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Speaker 1: This is where I struggle. It's not her responsibility. Where

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Speaker 1: is it written that pop stars have to be role models?

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Speaker 1: Who said that to Mick Jagger? Who said that to

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Speaker 1: the Beatles? Like, no one expects that of men.

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Speaker 3: But in a time I see what I'm saying, in

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Speaker 3: a time when it does feel like women's rights and

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Speaker 3: autonomy are under threat. If I saw this on a

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Speaker 3: billboard in the US right now, how would I feel?

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Speaker 3: I would feel like, oh God, that's not helping. Like

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Speaker 3: it doesn't feel in a world of Billie Eilish's and

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Speaker 3: Chapel Roan's and even.

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Speaker 2: The case that's happening with Sean Combs where alleged we're

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Speaker 2: seeing footage of him dragging Cassie by the hair to

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Speaker 2: allegedly assault her. It's just not the time, It's.

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Speaker 1: Not countercultural, its cultural?

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Speaker 3: Yeah right in a moment, one of Australia's most famous

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Speaker 3: influencers hired a private investigator, and I'm going to tell

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Speaker 3: you what she discovered. Two somewhat related stories this week,

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Speaker 3: emerging from the bowels of the internet, which is where

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Speaker 3: I hang out after ten pm and a dodgy curry.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The first is that Australian influencer Indie Clinton, she's got

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Speaker 3: more than two million followers on TikTok. She hired a

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Speaker 3: private investigator to identify her online trolls. What you need

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Speaker 3: to know about Indie Clinton is that she is a

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Speaker 3: content creator. She has three little kids. She had a

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Speaker 3: first kid at twenty two, and she posts a lot

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Speaker 3: about the chaos and the mess and the reality of

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Speaker 3: having little kids. That's kind of her shtick. Do you

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Speaker 3: remember we spoke about Clinton a few months ago when

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Speaker 3: it came to she'd had a nose job. I think

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Speaker 3: she was saying it was for health reasons, and she

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Speaker 3: received a lot of backlash and after that, trolling intensified

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Speaker 3: and she just went, I'm going to find out who

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Speaker 3: these people are who are having a go at me.

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Speaker 3: So over the weekend, she shared a video holding a

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Speaker 3: sixty four page DOSSI are full of information, apparently, including

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Speaker 3: their Australian business numbers, where they gave birth, their tattoo designs,

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Speaker 3: and even the name of their gynecologist.

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Speaker 5: Many of you are mothers, which I think is most

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Speaker 5: surprising to me because I'm like, oh my god, I

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Speaker 5: literally know every detail, down to your abn and down

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Speaker 5: to where you gave birth at hospital. Another beautiful troll

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Speaker 5: of mine, you regret your evil eyes tatoo you got

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Speaker 5: when you were eighteen. You know what I regret a

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Speaker 5: tatoo I got when I was eighteen two. I have

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Speaker 5: a moon, but I feel like with an evil eye,

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Speaker 5: it's meant to look after you. But I guess if

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Speaker 5: you're trolling, it's not going to do that.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's all. It's good research, but it's also like,

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Speaker 3: isn't health information privileged?

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Speaker 1: I just kind of went on, I've just been the

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Speaker 1: name of their gynecologists, not like their records, presumably, although I.

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Speaker 3: Don't think that anyone should know whether or not I

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Speaker 3: went to the gynocologist in the last week. I feel

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Speaker 3: like that's weird. Anyway. She discovered that most of her

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Speaker 3: trolls were mothers. Doesn't surprise anyone. No, that surprised me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So the reason this didn't surprise me at all

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Speaker 1: is that so often when you look at trolls, and

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Speaker 1: when we say trolls, we don't mean just someone who

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Speaker 1: leaves one nasty comment. It's someone who has a pattern

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Speaker 1: of you know, online storkreuse behavior almost or obsessive behavior

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Speaker 1: about particular individuals, and it invariably turns out that that

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Speaker 1: person has similarities with the person that they're trolling. I'll

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Speaker 1: give you another example, Probably the most famous case of

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Speaker 1: this is Lindy West two in twenty fifteen. She's a

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Speaker 1: body positive activist, feminist author. She gets trolled a huge amount,

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Speaker 1: and back then, Achille, back then, she was pretty used

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Speaker 1: to it. You know, there were people who called her

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Speaker 1: all sorts of names every single day. But then her

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Speaker 1: father died and there was this person who opened a

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Speaker 1: fake account under her father's name on Twitter and was

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Speaker 1: posting about the location six feet under you know, ashamed

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Speaker 1: of my fat pig of a daughter, like horrible, horrible things.

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Speaker 1: And Lindy, the instruction that you're always given, the advice

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Speaker 1: you're always given, is don't feed the trolls. Don't retweet them,

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Speaker 1: don't mention them, don't reply to them. Just block them,

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Speaker 1: report them, block them, report them. And she chose to

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Speaker 1: speak about this, and she wrote about it and how

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Speaker 1: deeply hurt she'd been by this particular troll. And one

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Speaker 1: day he wrote to her and he just said, it's me.

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Speaker 1: I'm the person, and this is my real name. I've

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Speaker 1: emailed you from three different email accounts. I'm ashamed of

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Speaker 1: what I did. The reason that I've done it is

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Speaker 1: because you seem really happy with your elf and your weight,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not. He was overweight, he hated himself. And

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Speaker 1: she ended up interviewing him on an episode of This

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Speaker 1: American Life and again and again. And I know a

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Speaker 1: number of people who found their trolls, who found out

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Speaker 1: who they were, and they always tend to be someone

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Speaker 1: within their sphere. So, for example, if Indy Clinton makes

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Speaker 1: content about motherhood, it's another mother. If it's someone who

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Speaker 1: makes content about beauty, it might be a beauty journalist

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Speaker 1: or someone who wants to be a beauty influencer. They're

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Speaker 1: within that realm.

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Speaker 4: Yep.

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Speaker 3: And look, Indy Clinton has said that while she won't

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Speaker 3: be sharing the names of any of these trolls. She

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Speaker 3: wants them to know that they are not anonymous, which

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Speaker 3: brings us to another massive story out of the UK

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Speaker 3: this week regarding a site called Tattle. We've agonized for

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Speaker 3: years about whether or not to talk about Tattle on

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Speaker 3: this show because we know that when we say that word,

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Speaker 3: it sends people there, and we do not want people

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Speaker 3: going to this like disgust sewer, cruel sewer of the internet,

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Speaker 3: because basically it is this forum where people bitch about influencers.

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Speaker 1: And anyone in the public eye, but mostly women.

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Speaker 3: Yes, mostly women. And we're going to get in a

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Speaker 3: sect to the difference between saying I don't agree with

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Speaker 3: what she did and what happens on Tattle. But anyway,

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Speaker 3: an Irish couple recently sued Tattle and uncovered the creator,

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Speaker 3: who is a plant based recipe influencer, an author named

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Speaker 3: Sebastian Bond, a man. It's a man and influencer in fact,

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Speaker 3: and an influencer. There was a fine that went with it,

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Speaker 3: but basically we've learned that this man has made a

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Speaker 3: lot of money off adds on Tattle because he just

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Speaker 3: went this is a place for hate on the Internet. Great,

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Speaker 3: I can monetize it well. Tattle says that it's a

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Speaker 3: place for commentary and critiques of people who choose to

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Speaker 3: monetize their personal life as a business and release it

431
00:21:58,262 --> 00:22:01,581
Speaker 3: into the public domain. In reality, what happens is that

432
00:22:01,621 --> 00:22:06,821
Speaker 3: people get defamed, bullied, and even doxed. So they're threatened, threatened,

433
00:22:06,942 --> 00:22:10,141
Speaker 3: their address gets leaked, the school of their children gets leaked,

434
00:22:10,542 --> 00:22:13,701
Speaker 3: and what that means, Like, it doesn't sound like that

435
00:22:13,742 --> 00:22:15,941
Speaker 3: bigger thing, but if you think about how many people

436
00:22:15,942 --> 00:22:19,141
Speaker 3: hate Indy Clinton and then someone puts her address on

437
00:22:19,182 --> 00:22:23,462
Speaker 3: the Internet, that actually puts her in real danger. And

438
00:22:23,942 --> 00:22:26,462
Speaker 3: I have had a look there for stories that I

439
00:22:26,502 --> 00:22:29,181
Speaker 3: wrote on the site. I haven't touched it since, but

440
00:22:29,302 --> 00:22:32,222
Speaker 3: what has shocked me is that it might start off

441
00:22:32,222 --> 00:22:34,662
Speaker 3: as something that maybe is a vale critique, and then

442
00:22:34,702 --> 00:22:38,702
Speaker 3: it goes down into fifty pages on how this person

443
00:22:38,901 --> 00:22:41,222
Speaker 3: is a terrible mother and her children should be taken

444
00:22:41,222 --> 00:22:43,702
Speaker 3: from her. Like it, it is so much about motherhood

445
00:22:43,702 --> 00:22:46,782
Speaker 3: as well, which I think comes back to an appearance

446
00:22:46,901 --> 00:22:50,942
Speaker 3: and appearance exactly right, em what do these two stories

447
00:22:51,262 --> 00:22:54,302
Speaker 3: teach us? Do they really teach us that the Internet

448
00:22:54,502 --> 00:22:56,302
Speaker 3: isn't an anonymous place after all?

449
00:22:56,462 --> 00:22:58,742
Speaker 2: I kind of hope so, like when I heard about

450
00:22:58,821 --> 00:23:03,341
Speaker 2: the Indie Clinton story, it made me quite hopeful for

451
00:23:03,462 --> 00:23:07,102
Speaker 2: not just trolls, but just like any form of anonymous comment.

452
00:23:07,302 --> 00:23:09,861
Speaker 2: I find that anonymous comments, especially when you're in the

453
00:23:09,861 --> 00:23:13,101
Speaker 2: public eye, such a cowardly thing to do. And I

454
00:23:13,262 --> 00:23:15,141
Speaker 2: make it a point that if someone critiques me and

455
00:23:15,182 --> 00:23:18,021
Speaker 2: it's constructive critiques and they have their name on it,

456
00:23:18,061 --> 00:23:18,901
Speaker 2: I will always reply.

457
00:23:19,462 --> 00:23:23,381
Speaker 1: I will always what's the difference between a constructive critique

458
00:23:23,422 --> 00:23:24,381
Speaker 1: and someone a troll?

459
00:23:25,141 --> 00:23:27,581
Speaker 2: A troll would be someone who's just like for example,

460
00:23:27,702 --> 00:23:31,382
Speaker 2: when I talked about the spreena Carpeenter stuff, someone commented, Oh,

461
00:23:31,502 --> 00:23:33,141
Speaker 2: you just hate women and you're such a prude, you're

462
00:23:33,141 --> 00:23:35,781
Speaker 2: fucking bitch. Yeah, right, and then I go into their

463
00:23:35,782 --> 00:23:39,302
Speaker 2: profile and it's like no profile picture, like fake name

464
00:23:39,782 --> 00:23:41,782
Speaker 2: versus a critique. Was like, I really heard what you

465
00:23:41,821 --> 00:23:43,582
Speaker 2: said on that, this is what I think. I think

466
00:23:43,621 --> 00:23:46,741
Speaker 2: you're wrong, And I'm like, Okaya.

467
00:23:46,061 --> 00:23:48,861
Speaker 3: Faith, you're less. I got myse' nice, get your set.

468
00:23:48,861 --> 00:23:52,182
Speaker 2: It didn't call me ugly, you're very respectful. It was nice.

469
00:23:52,222 --> 00:23:55,821
Speaker 2: But the tattle thing I made the mistake of going

470
00:23:55,861 --> 00:23:57,821
Speaker 2: on title when I was very young, like I was

471
00:23:57,821 --> 00:24:00,302
Speaker 2: probably twenty one, and I just went down this hole

472
00:24:00,422 --> 00:24:04,461
Speaker 2: because it's actually so wild how people can just be

473
00:24:04,581 --> 00:24:06,341
Speaker 2: like it's so easy to see how people can be

474
00:24:06,422 --> 00:24:08,141
Speaker 2: on their twenty four to seven.

475
00:24:08,061 --> 00:24:11,061
Speaker 3: Every single day. It's a community.

476
00:24:11,141 --> 00:24:12,702
Speaker 1: These people who hate themselves.

477
00:24:12,942 --> 00:24:15,582
Speaker 2: People are not just so sad. And it doesn't even

478
00:24:15,621 --> 00:24:18,661
Speaker 2: make it like there's nothing constructive about it. You'll just

479
00:24:18,702 --> 00:24:20,461
Speaker 2: get like a title, for example, You'll just see a

480
00:24:20,502 --> 00:24:23,341
Speaker 2: title saying Emily Vernon, and then underneath will be just

481
00:24:23,341 --> 00:24:25,782
Speaker 2: like thread after thread after threads. It'll be like Emily Venum,

482
00:24:25,901 --> 00:24:30,462
Speaker 2: looks Emily Venamma Emily, And it's just like, how.

483
00:24:30,341 --> 00:24:32,502
Speaker 3: Is it kind of started setting that that if you

484
00:24:33,022 --> 00:24:36,022
Speaker 3: read it, I don't know how you would go on

485
00:24:36,542 --> 00:24:38,502
Speaker 3: without those things imprinted in your brain.

486
00:24:38,581 --> 00:24:41,621
Speaker 1: I mean, the real world impact. People sort of throw

487
00:24:41,661 --> 00:24:45,181
Speaker 1: around the ideas of mental health, but the Internet for

488
00:24:45,222 --> 00:24:48,542
Speaker 1: a lot of us is our workplace, and I don't know,

489
00:24:48,621 --> 00:24:52,221
Speaker 1: we're not programmed to be able to deal with knowing

490
00:24:52,302 --> 00:24:56,182
Speaker 1: what everybody thinks about you. It's a very modern dilemma

491
00:24:56,341 --> 00:25:00,222
Speaker 1: that biology hasn't caught up with yet. I know. Lee

492
00:25:00,302 --> 00:25:02,902
Speaker 1: Campbell wrote about it on her Stories on the Weekend.

493
00:25:03,581 --> 00:25:06,502
Speaker 1: She also has had lawyers involved to find people who

494
00:25:06,581 --> 00:25:09,181
Speaker 1: had harassed her through tattle, and she's got all of

495
00:25:09,182 --> 00:25:12,222
Speaker 1: their d She sent cease and desist letters to them.

496
00:25:12,262 --> 00:25:14,621
Speaker 1: She's also chosen not to make their names public. But

497
00:25:15,141 --> 00:25:17,781
Speaker 1: just be aware if you visit these sites and you

498
00:25:17,861 --> 00:25:21,502
Speaker 1: comment on them alone, if you own them, it is

499
00:25:21,542 --> 00:25:24,662
Speaker 1: coming for you. You know, you won't be protected by

500
00:25:24,702 --> 00:25:25,821
Speaker 1: anonymity anymore.

501
00:25:26,101 --> 00:25:29,621
Speaker 3: You know. What is interesting, though, is that the worst

502
00:25:30,061 --> 00:25:33,222
Speaker 3: trolling I have seen and received is from people who

503
00:25:33,462 --> 00:25:36,261
Speaker 3: didn't even try to be anonymous. So it's like the

504
00:25:36,422 --> 00:25:41,462
Speaker 3: tattle of it all seeps into Internet speak and seeps

505
00:25:41,502 --> 00:25:45,381
Speaker 3: into how we all treat each other, like there are

506
00:25:45,422 --> 00:25:47,782
Speaker 3: people with real Often I get a message and I

507
00:25:47,821 --> 00:25:49,941
Speaker 3: think that can't possibly be from a real person. You

508
00:25:49,982 --> 00:25:51,781
Speaker 3: look at it and it is their real account, And

509
00:25:51,821 --> 00:25:53,341
Speaker 3: what can any of us do. I'm not going to

510
00:25:53,422 --> 00:25:57,101
Speaker 3: sue anyone, probably for defamation, no matter how many hundreds

511
00:25:57,101 --> 00:25:59,222
Speaker 3: of thousands of people they pose something to. The only

512
00:25:59,262 --> 00:26:00,621
Speaker 3: thing you can do is kind of ignore it.

513
00:26:00,861 --> 00:26:03,462
Speaker 1: But that's not true. You can actually see them, you can,

514
00:26:03,502 --> 00:26:05,022
Speaker 1: and more and more people are choosing to do that.

515
00:26:05,182 --> 00:26:08,542
Speaker 3: Yeah, but anonymity isn't the only problem here. It's the discourse,

516
00:26:08,581 --> 00:26:11,341
Speaker 3: it's the tone, it's the way that you go people

517
00:26:11,381 --> 00:26:13,262
Speaker 3: on the Internet. I think TikTok's made even way.

518
00:26:13,141 --> 00:26:18,182
Speaker 1: Don't you think. Also we've turned cruelty into performance.

519
00:26:17,901 --> 00:26:18,982
Speaker 3: So into content.

520
00:26:19,182 --> 00:26:22,341
Speaker 1: People have always thought awful things, right Like, I'm not

521
00:26:22,502 --> 00:26:24,502
Speaker 1: saying I think awful things. I'll look at someone, or

522
00:26:24,581 --> 00:26:26,502
Speaker 1: i'll see someone, or I'll flick past something and I'll

523
00:26:26,502 --> 00:26:29,421
Speaker 1: have an uncharitable thought. Not all the time, sometimes I

524
00:26:29,502 --> 00:26:33,182
Speaker 1: will stays in my head. The difference is the Internet,

525
00:26:33,262 --> 00:26:35,781
Speaker 1: and anonymity on the Internet has allowed us, you know,

526
00:26:35,782 --> 00:26:39,262
Speaker 1: both anonymously and under our names, to perform that cruelty

527
00:26:39,621 --> 00:26:44,661
Speaker 1: for collaps for likes, for engagement, for validation, for something

528
00:26:44,702 --> 00:26:48,061
Speaker 1: to do, for the little hit you get from people

529
00:26:48,141 --> 00:26:48,821
Speaker 1: agreeing with you.

530
00:26:49,262 --> 00:26:52,101
Speaker 3: What's difficult, too, is that what starts as valid criticism

531
00:26:52,141 --> 00:26:55,342
Speaker 3: because there is part of the tattle ethos that I think,

532
00:26:55,341 --> 00:26:57,581
Speaker 3: all right, so if someone is a public figure, I

533
00:26:57,702 --> 00:26:59,502
Speaker 3: do believe I mean, of course we believe it. We

534
00:26:59,542 --> 00:27:02,222
Speaker 3: sit here and we just talked about Sabrina Carpenter's album cover,

535
00:27:02,302 --> 00:27:04,661
Speaker 3: and we have an understanding of what we think is

536
00:27:05,381 --> 00:27:07,902
Speaker 3: helpful or fair discourse. And you play the idea rather

537
00:27:07,942 --> 00:27:11,061
Speaker 3: than the person as much as you can, so you

538
00:27:11,182 --> 00:27:15,142
Speaker 3: go criticisms allowed. It's a democracy. But what's difficult when

539
00:27:15,141 --> 00:27:17,502
Speaker 3: it comes to the subject of women is that it

540
00:27:17,542 --> 00:27:22,141
Speaker 3: will inevitably quickly just turn. It just turns, and you

541
00:27:22,262 --> 00:27:26,742
Speaker 3: watch it turn into this incredibly personal sexist The irony

542
00:27:26,782 --> 00:27:28,941
Speaker 3: that this was created by a man and upheld by

543
00:27:28,942 --> 00:27:33,861
Speaker 3: women is so sad that the patriarchy is embedded in

544
00:27:33,901 --> 00:27:35,501
Speaker 3: all of this, because what do we do. We call

545
00:27:35,542 --> 00:27:38,701
Speaker 3: women ugly, we call them bad mothers, We undermine them

546
00:27:38,742 --> 00:27:40,622
Speaker 3: in a way that we don't men. Go and try

547
00:27:40,621 --> 00:27:42,181
Speaker 3: and find the threat about a man, you can't.

548
00:27:43,302 --> 00:27:46,302
Speaker 2: The one person I was thinking about all weekend is

549
00:27:46,341 --> 00:27:49,901
Speaker 2: a man named vishuas Kumar Ramesh, who was the sole

550
00:27:49,982 --> 00:27:53,302
Speaker 2: survivor of a plane crash that happened in Ahmadabad, India

551
00:27:53,381 --> 00:27:54,101
Speaker 2: on Thursday.

552
00:27:54,502 --> 00:27:57,101
Speaker 1: Did you see the footage of him? It was surreal,

553
00:27:57,341 --> 00:27:59,982
Speaker 1: just like walking through the streets he.

554
00:27:59,982 --> 00:28:01,982
Speaker 2: Walked out of the crash.

555
00:28:02,022 --> 00:28:02,702
Speaker 1: I read.

556
00:28:03,262 --> 00:28:05,502
Speaker 3: I came in this morning and was speaking to you

557
00:28:05,542 --> 00:28:08,341
Speaker 3: about it, and like I read every story about this

558
00:28:08,581 --> 00:28:10,542
Speaker 3: over the weekend.

559
00:28:09,742 --> 00:28:11,941
Speaker 1: Not one because I'm scared of flying. Shout out to

560
00:28:11,982 --> 00:28:14,941
Speaker 1: all the out louders who were scared of flying. I

561
00:28:14,982 --> 00:28:17,022
Speaker 1: don't know whether you should be cheered by this story.

562
00:28:17,061 --> 00:28:19,102
Speaker 1: Probably not because it involves a plane crash and it's

563
00:28:19,141 --> 00:28:22,542
Speaker 1: tragic because everybody else on the plane died. But anyway,

564
00:28:22,702 --> 00:28:23,662
Speaker 1: tell us about this guy.

565
00:28:23,782 --> 00:28:26,982
Speaker 2: The one question I had about his survival was how

566
00:28:27,821 --> 00:28:29,341
Speaker 2: So what we know is that it was an Air

567
00:28:29,422 --> 00:28:31,982
Speaker 2: India flight that was bound for London and it crashed

568
00:28:31,982 --> 00:28:34,341
Speaker 2: into a hostile block shortly after take off, like and

569
00:28:34,422 --> 00:28:35,861
Speaker 2: it was like a seconds.

570
00:28:36,101 --> 00:28:38,262
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a medical hostile yeah, so it was

571
00:28:38,302 --> 00:28:40,461
Speaker 3: people training to be doctors and stuff.

572
00:28:40,182 --> 00:28:42,661
Speaker 2: And it killed two hundred and forty one passengers and

573
00:28:42,742 --> 00:28:45,102
Speaker 2: crew on board, as well as people on the ground.

574
00:28:45,142 --> 00:28:47,142
Speaker 2: So far, it's been reported that the total number of

575
00:28:47,182 --> 00:28:50,462
Speaker 2: debts is two hundred and ninety. It's a bit close

576
00:28:50,502 --> 00:28:53,262
Speaker 2: to home because the exact same aircraft had actually flown

577
00:28:53,342 --> 00:28:58,261
Speaker 2: out from Melbourne to Deli just four days before the crash. So,

578
00:28:58,622 --> 00:29:01,262
Speaker 2: as we said, Rameshtans just survived the crash, but he

579
00:29:01,382 --> 00:29:04,622
Speaker 2: was actually reported walking out of it, and there's video

580
00:29:04,622 --> 00:29:07,582
Speaker 2: footage of that as well. And I feel like when

581
00:29:07,582 --> 00:29:10,822
Speaker 2: one of these things happen, it's so traed and so shocking.

582
00:29:11,502 --> 00:29:14,942
Speaker 2: But all everyone wants to know is how did he survive?

583
00:29:15,062 --> 00:29:15,942
Speaker 1: What seat was he in?

584
00:29:16,622 --> 00:29:19,302
Speaker 2: That's the thing. So I looked this up and I

585
00:29:19,422 --> 00:29:20,902
Speaker 2: used to do a lot of work in SEO, and

586
00:29:20,982 --> 00:29:24,661
Speaker 2: I saw that the search term eleven A seat was

587
00:29:24,822 --> 00:29:27,662
Speaker 2: trending like crazy the day after the crash happened, because

588
00:29:27,702 --> 00:29:30,661
Speaker 2: that's the seat that Ramesh was sitting in. So he

589
00:29:30,982 --> 00:29:34,822
Speaker 2: was seated in eleven A, which is the emergency exit seat,

590
00:29:35,022 --> 00:29:38,502
Speaker 2: and he reported that he was able to push open

591
00:29:38,542 --> 00:29:40,862
Speaker 2: the door, kick open the door and walk out of

592
00:29:41,022 --> 00:29:44,382
Speaker 2: the plane. So he said, when the door broke and

593
00:29:44,422 --> 00:29:46,582
Speaker 2: I saw there was some space, I tried to get

594
00:29:46,622 --> 00:29:48,701
Speaker 2: out of there and I did. No one could have

595
00:29:48,702 --> 00:29:51,181
Speaker 2: gotten out from the opposite side, which was towards the

596
00:29:51,222 --> 00:29:54,462
Speaker 2: wall because it had crashed there. I managed to unbuckle myself,

597
00:29:54,661 --> 00:29:57,622
Speaker 2: use my legs to push through that opening and crawled out.

598
00:29:58,142 --> 00:30:02,422
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. That is because afterwards he was interviewed

599
00:30:02,462 --> 00:30:04,142
Speaker 3: and he sort of didn't even know what happen.

600
00:30:04,182 --> 00:30:06,062
Speaker 2: It was like in his hospital bed and yeah, people

601
00:30:06,422 --> 00:30:11,142
Speaker 2: with microphones rather as yeah. So everyone's asking should I

602
00:30:11,262 --> 00:30:14,181
Speaker 2: now be booking eleven A on every plane I go

603
00:30:14,262 --> 00:30:17,421
Speaker 2: to from my holidays And the answer is no. So

604
00:30:18,782 --> 00:30:20,862
Speaker 2: it was only the safest seat. And I have to

605
00:30:20,902 --> 00:30:22,502
Speaker 2: talk about my dad here because my dad and I

606
00:30:22,542 --> 00:30:24,462
Speaker 2: talked about this a lot because he's an ex pilot

607
00:30:24,661 --> 00:30:26,822
Speaker 2: and he has a lot of friends who fly for India.

608
00:30:27,502 --> 00:30:30,942
Speaker 2: And the thing with plane crashes is that it takes

609
00:30:31,142 --> 00:30:34,262
Speaker 2: so much investigative work that goes into it after a

610
00:30:34,262 --> 00:30:36,462
Speaker 2: plane crash, because we're in twenty twenty five and it's

611
00:30:36,462 --> 00:30:38,782
Speaker 2: still very much one of those situations where it shouldn't

612
00:30:38,822 --> 00:30:39,382
Speaker 2: be happening.

613
00:30:39,742 --> 00:30:42,102
Speaker 3: It's so and we should say it is so. So

614
00:30:42,342 --> 00:30:43,582
Speaker 3: rest plane was.

615
00:30:43,822 --> 00:30:46,102
Speaker 2: Absolutely rare, and they put so much work into it,

616
00:30:46,142 --> 00:30:48,702
Speaker 2: so we'd only get like an initial report three months

617
00:30:48,742 --> 00:30:50,981
Speaker 2: after and then we'll get like a final report like

618
00:30:51,022 --> 00:30:52,782
Speaker 2: one to two years after, because that's how.

619
00:30:52,742 --> 00:30:54,421
Speaker 1: Much work goes. It's speculation.

620
00:30:54,582 --> 00:30:57,702
Speaker 2: It's speculation. I think right now they discovered one out

621
00:30:57,742 --> 00:31:00,661
Speaker 2: of the two black boxes in the plane, and the

622
00:31:00,702 --> 00:31:03,102
Speaker 2: black boss just has all the logs so they can

623
00:31:03,142 --> 00:31:05,981
Speaker 2: see what went down as well as like radio communication.

624
00:31:06,102 --> 00:31:07,422
Speaker 1: So what does your dad think happened?

625
00:31:08,022 --> 00:31:10,382
Speaker 2: So the thing my dad, he doesn't want to speculate

626
00:31:10,422 --> 00:31:13,221
Speaker 2: because he says the reason why plane crashes are so

627
00:31:13,382 --> 00:31:15,461
Speaker 2: rare because every time a plane crash happens, they do

628
00:31:15,582 --> 00:31:18,062
Speaker 2: everything they can to make sure it doesn't happen again,

629
00:31:18,382 --> 00:31:22,742
Speaker 2: which makes each plane crash quite unique. So it's actually

630
00:31:22,782 --> 00:31:25,981
Speaker 2: quite problematic that this trend of seats eleven a is

631
00:31:26,022 --> 00:31:28,302
Speaker 2: trending because it's actually not true, like that is not

632
00:31:28,422 --> 00:31:29,542
Speaker 2: the safest seat.

633
00:31:29,661 --> 00:31:32,421
Speaker 1: It happens to be safest seat in that particular plane

634
00:31:32,582 --> 00:31:35,582
Speaker 1: on that particular day in the way that particular crash happened.

635
00:31:35,661 --> 00:31:38,142
Speaker 2: Like everything has to be so unique that it can't

636
00:31:38,182 --> 00:31:41,302
Speaker 2: be replicated. There have been studies, though, so to put

637
00:31:41,342 --> 00:31:45,142
Speaker 2: everyone's mind at ease. So a twenty fifteen time analysis

638
00:31:45,142 --> 00:31:48,262
Speaker 2: found that sitting within five rows of an exit row

639
00:31:48,742 --> 00:31:51,502
Speaker 2: you have more chances of surviving. There was also a

640
00:31:51,582 --> 00:31:55,422
Speaker 2: National Transportation Safety Board study that studied twenty crashes since

641
00:31:55,542 --> 00:31:58,701
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy one, and they said that the rear third

642
00:31:58,782 --> 00:32:01,422
Speaker 2: of the plane, particularly the middle seat, has the lowest

643
00:32:01,462 --> 00:32:05,221
Speaker 2: fatality rates. My dad was like, everyone needs when you

644
00:32:05,222 --> 00:32:08,382
Speaker 2: sit on a plane, everyone needs to put their devices

645
00:32:08,422 --> 00:32:11,262
Speaker 2: down and listen to this safety instructions. That is the

646
00:32:11,302 --> 00:32:12,782
Speaker 2: only es anymore.

647
00:32:12,902 --> 00:32:13,302
Speaker 1: My dad.

648
00:32:13,302 --> 00:32:15,582
Speaker 2: You should see him on flights. He looks at people,

649
00:32:15,661 --> 00:32:17,982
Speaker 2: he taps people on the shoulders and put your phone down,

650
00:32:18,142 --> 00:32:20,542
Speaker 2: watch the safety flight. No one does it anymore. And

651
00:32:20,582 --> 00:32:23,462
Speaker 2: when you're in that circumstance of going through a plane crash,

652
00:32:23,622 --> 00:32:24,982
Speaker 2: you don't remember it. Even if you went on a

653
00:32:25,022 --> 00:32:27,662
Speaker 2: flight yesterday, You'll only remember what you saw just twenty

654
00:32:27,702 --> 00:32:30,062
Speaker 2: seconds before it happened, which is exactly what happened. This

655
00:32:30,102 --> 00:32:31,902
Speaker 2: was plane crashed eleven seconds after I took off.

656
00:32:32,342 --> 00:32:32,862
Speaker 3: Wow.

657
00:32:33,502 --> 00:32:36,822
Speaker 1: After the break a change of pace arise to David.

658
00:32:36,982 --> 00:32:40,142
Speaker 1: We have some scarrelous gossip about why David Beckham finally

659
00:32:40,182 --> 00:32:42,742
Speaker 1: got a knighthood and what this means in the context

660
00:32:43,062 --> 00:32:44,102
Speaker 1: of his family drama.

661
00:32:45,022 --> 00:32:48,982
Speaker 3: What unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

662
00:32:49,022 --> 00:32:53,221
Speaker 3: and Thursday exclusively for Mum and Maya subscribers. Follow the

663
00:32:53,262 --> 00:32:55,142
Speaker 3: link in the show notes to get us in your

664
00:32:55,182 --> 00:32:57,981
Speaker 3: ears five days a week, and a huge thank you

665
00:32:58,142 --> 00:33:00,542
Speaker 3: to all our current subscribers.

666
00:33:04,342 --> 00:33:07,382
Speaker 1: Finally, that photo of a night that David Beckham has

667
00:33:07,382 --> 00:33:10,342
Speaker 1: had on his vision board for years has off. I'm

668
00:33:10,342 --> 00:33:13,822
Speaker 1: a crowd, I feel really emotional. Well, he's done more

669
00:33:13,862 --> 00:33:17,342
Speaker 1: than manifested because on the weekend it was announced that

670
00:33:17,382 --> 00:33:20,941
Speaker 1: he's officially going to be Sir David Beckham and Victoria

671
00:33:21,262 --> 00:33:23,462
Speaker 1: will officially be Lady Posh.

672
00:33:23,502 --> 00:33:26,142
Speaker 3: And the first thing a lot of people will think

673
00:33:26,222 --> 00:33:28,582
Speaker 3: when they hear this news is how is that man

674
00:33:28,622 --> 00:33:29,502
Speaker 3: already not a Knight?

675
00:33:30,022 --> 00:33:30,222
Speaker 5: Right?

676
00:33:30,302 --> 00:33:32,902
Speaker 3: He seems like night material He's he is, Sir David

677
00:33:32,942 --> 00:33:34,102
Speaker 3: Beckham already.

678
00:33:33,862 --> 00:33:37,062
Speaker 1: Well not technically, but this will be a recognition of

679
00:33:37,102 --> 00:33:40,662
Speaker 1: services to sport and to charity something something football. Now

680
00:33:40,661 --> 00:33:42,342
Speaker 1: the ceremony is going to be in a few months.

681
00:33:42,661 --> 00:33:45,462
Speaker 1: Wasn't on the weekend, but good news, Jesse. You're right.

682
00:33:45,582 --> 00:33:48,142
Speaker 1: Recipients are entitled to use their new title as soon

683
00:33:48,142 --> 00:33:48,982
Speaker 1: as it's announced.

684
00:33:49,382 --> 00:33:51,782
Speaker 3: Can I tell you this is one of my Roman empires?

685
00:33:51,822 --> 00:33:53,982
Speaker 3: Is how badly David Beckham has always wanted a knighthood.

686
00:33:54,142 --> 00:33:57,582
Speaker 3: So twenty thirteen he did a kicker and intercept that

687
00:33:57,661 --> 00:33:59,702
Speaker 3: was a big deal. No one cares he bent it

688
00:33:59,742 --> 00:34:02,582
Speaker 3: like hevented like Beckham did. Yeap, And he's in an

689
00:34:02,622 --> 00:34:05,742
Speaker 3: interview with Jonathan Ross on ITV and Jonathan Ross says

690
00:34:05,782 --> 00:34:08,142
Speaker 3: a lot of people said, you deserve a knighthood for

691
00:34:08,222 --> 00:34:10,462
Speaker 3: that kick? Yeah, tis donna highest do Honnor. Don't you

692
00:34:10,462 --> 00:34:13,222
Speaker 3: think you deserve the knighthood? And he was like, oh,

693
00:34:14,222 --> 00:34:17,301
Speaker 3: stop it, I don't deserve that. I'm happy that I've

694
00:34:17,342 --> 00:34:20,142
Speaker 3: got my order of something something England. He has something

695
00:34:20,181 --> 00:34:24,542
Speaker 3: else anyway, emails revealed that that question was asked because

696
00:34:24,622 --> 00:34:27,742
Speaker 3: David Beckham's people asked Donathan Ross to ask that question

697
00:34:27,781 --> 00:34:30,502
Speaker 3: and Jonathan Ross, can you please also say you think

698
00:34:30,502 --> 00:34:32,942
Speaker 3: he should have one? No, that's so good, he.

699
00:34:33,221 --> 00:34:34,422
Speaker 1: Emails from David's people.

700
00:34:34,661 --> 00:34:37,382
Speaker 3: Yeah, then what happens is he doesn't get one. And

701
00:34:37,422 --> 00:34:40,542
Speaker 3: then in twenty fourteen he doesn't get one and leaked

702
00:34:40,582 --> 00:34:43,661
Speaker 3: messages within his PR team and this was, look, we

703
00:34:43,701 --> 00:34:46,022
Speaker 3: should say, this is scaraliscossip. We're not proud of how

704
00:34:46,062 --> 00:34:48,142
Speaker 3: we know this, but it was. It was leaked, and

705
00:34:48,382 --> 00:34:50,142
Speaker 3: we didn't read it on tatle that we did not

706
00:34:50,181 --> 00:34:52,341
Speaker 3: read it on tattle. He's in the script chat with

707
00:34:52,382 --> 00:34:54,821
Speaker 3: his PR team and he describes the honors committee as

708
00:34:54,862 --> 00:34:58,701
Speaker 3: a bunch of cunts and he said that it's an

709
00:34:58,701 --> 00:35:00,942
Speaker 3: effing joke. And then this is my favorite part, is

710
00:35:00,942 --> 00:35:03,502
Speaker 3: that he then starts going after other people that got

711
00:35:03,502 --> 00:35:06,502
Speaker 3: a knighthood, such as a woman named Catherine Jenkins, who

712
00:35:06,542 --> 00:35:09,181
Speaker 3: he said was just honored because she was singing at

713
00:35:09,181 --> 00:35:11,422
Speaker 3: the rug Bee. She's an opera singer. He was actually

714
00:35:11,462 --> 00:35:13,062
Speaker 3: kind of a big deal, but he got quite petty.

715
00:35:13,942 --> 00:35:17,182
Speaker 3: And then the back and forth goes with his people

716
00:35:17,582 --> 00:35:18,942
Speaker 3: like at this point. I don't even know how we

717
00:35:18,982 --> 00:35:22,142
Speaker 3: know this, but they're like, look, David, our recommendation is

718
00:35:22,422 --> 00:35:24,301
Speaker 3: we could send out a petty comment because at that

719
00:35:24,342 --> 00:35:26,221
Speaker 3: point he wanted them to make a statement about how

720
00:35:26,261 --> 00:35:28,502
Speaker 3: unfair it was, and they're like, we reckon, just like

721
00:35:28,701 --> 00:35:31,941
Speaker 3: stay with the unisef like, let's just keep So there's

722
00:35:31,982 --> 00:35:34,342
Speaker 3: this kind of joke that he's like, I've got to

723
00:35:34,342 --> 00:35:36,862
Speaker 3: do more fucking charity work to get this editing knighthood.

724
00:35:36,982 --> 00:35:39,062
Speaker 1: And he had to go and stand in line to

725
00:35:39,422 --> 00:35:40,102
Speaker 1: visit the queen.

726
00:35:40,142 --> 00:35:40,701
Speaker 3: Yeah, she was lying.

727
00:35:41,142 --> 00:35:41,862
Speaker 2: He still didn't get it.

728
00:35:41,902 --> 00:35:44,261
Speaker 3: Then he still didn't get it. He has played the

729
00:35:44,302 --> 00:35:46,781
Speaker 3: long game, and there is something so relatable to me

730
00:35:47,261 --> 00:35:50,261
Speaker 3: about how desperately this man wants a knighthood. He's finally

731
00:35:50,302 --> 00:35:52,462
Speaker 3: got it. I think he had to do beck he

732
00:35:52,462 --> 00:35:55,062
Speaker 3: had to do the doco. I reckon. The doco was

733
00:35:55,102 --> 00:35:57,142
Speaker 3: the last kind of I'm going to do the best

734
00:35:57,142 --> 00:35:59,462
Speaker 3: doc I've ever made about me and my career, just

735
00:35:59,502 --> 00:36:01,701
Speaker 3: to remind you all, because I think there was one

736
00:36:01,701 --> 00:36:03,341
Speaker 3: person on that panel that had it in for him,

737
00:36:03,502 --> 00:36:04,862
Speaker 3: and maybe that person has retired.

738
00:36:04,902 --> 00:36:07,862
Speaker 1: And also he's done great service to bees.

739
00:36:08,342 --> 00:36:10,781
Speaker 3: That is so true. He makes money now exactly right,

740
00:36:10,862 --> 00:36:14,821
Speaker 3: exactly great service to Instagram. Yeah, m, you recently won

741
00:36:14,862 --> 00:36:18,102
Speaker 3: an award? Oh yeah, how much did you fight for that?

742
00:36:18,142 --> 00:36:21,422
Speaker 1: Did you like celebrating this? You received an award on

743
00:36:21,462 --> 00:36:24,622
Speaker 1: Friday night, the next of the Best Award for Audio Talent? Yes,

744
00:36:24,741 --> 00:36:25,821
Speaker 1: are you guys jealous?

745
00:36:25,502 --> 00:36:29,821
Speaker 3: And actually, as someone who only loses, we never got that.

746
00:36:29,942 --> 00:36:33,901
Speaker 3: My group texts look exactly like, this is a fucking joke.

747
00:36:34,302 --> 00:36:36,142
Speaker 3: And then if I was in that, I would go

748
00:36:36,261 --> 00:36:38,821
Speaker 3: and vernon what she done? What goes? Has a little

749
00:36:38,862 --> 00:36:39,701
Speaker 3: chat on a podcast?

750
00:36:39,862 --> 00:36:41,302
Speaker 1: Would she write a letter to exactly?

751
00:36:41,382 --> 00:36:44,341
Speaker 2: I do have some advice for David Beckham because there's

752
00:36:44,382 --> 00:36:46,021
Speaker 2: quite a lot of strategy that goes in into winning

753
00:36:46,022 --> 00:36:49,021
Speaker 2: an award. With this award, I had to nominate myself. Okay,

754
00:36:49,462 --> 00:36:51,461
Speaker 2: it's always a little bit awkward, but it's always good

755
00:36:51,462 --> 00:36:56,261
Speaker 2: to have someone say, hey, you should nominate yourself. So

756
00:36:56,462 --> 00:36:58,702
Speaker 2: I have someone on record saying you should nominate yourself.

757
00:36:58,741 --> 00:37:01,022
Speaker 2: So I've been telling everyone this person nominated me.

758
00:37:03,382 --> 00:37:03,901
Speaker 3: I had to do it.

759
00:37:06,462 --> 00:37:08,542
Speaker 2: And then you have to go through this whole application.

760
00:37:08,622 --> 00:37:10,342
Speaker 2: You have to make a sizzle on yourself. It's just

761
00:37:10,582 --> 00:37:13,181
Speaker 2: like videos of yourself, like looking really good at your job,

762
00:37:13,942 --> 00:37:15,741
Speaker 2: so he probably had to do that. He did all

763
00:37:15,741 --> 00:37:19,181
Speaker 2: his like strikes and stuff. Yeah, his documentary, so I'm

764
00:37:19,181 --> 00:37:20,301
Speaker 2: sure he would have had a great one.

765
00:37:20,382 --> 00:37:23,221
Speaker 1: I write a good reference for someone who's nominated for awards.

766
00:37:23,261 --> 00:37:24,821
Speaker 1: I never get any, but I write a lot of

767
00:37:24,862 --> 00:37:26,701
Speaker 1: good references those who do.

768
00:37:26,982 --> 00:37:29,382
Speaker 3: You didn't ask, can you nominate me for something?

769
00:37:29,542 --> 00:37:32,902
Speaker 1: Yeah? Sure? Tell me what to nominate you for? Not

770
00:37:33,022 --> 00:37:34,902
Speaker 1: new Talent, your knighthood?

771
00:37:35,062 --> 00:37:35,261
Speaker 4: Yeah?

772
00:37:35,342 --> 00:37:37,341
Speaker 3: Can I alloud us? Just look up an award that

773
00:37:37,422 --> 00:37:40,742
Speaker 3: I might win somewhere, because I really love winning an award.

774
00:37:41,022 --> 00:37:43,261
Speaker 1: You know, I was looking up who's also a sir?

775
00:37:43,942 --> 00:37:47,981
Speaker 1: Sir Paul McCartney, Sir Elton John, Dame Judy Dench, Dave

776
00:37:48,022 --> 00:37:51,781
Speaker 1: Maggie Smith, Dame Edna Everage, Sir Donald Bradman, except I

777
00:37:51,781 --> 00:37:55,022
Speaker 1: think maybe day Medna Average damed herself. But some people

778
00:37:55,022 --> 00:37:59,142
Speaker 1: have rejected them for reasons of I guess politics. David

779
00:37:59,142 --> 00:38:03,422
Speaker 1: Bowie said no, Stephen Hawking said no. George Harrison another Beatle,

780
00:38:03,542 --> 00:38:06,462
Speaker 1: said no, but he said no. I love this so

781
00:38:06,622 --> 00:38:11,022
Speaker 1: micro petty because Paul McCartney got one, he's mad about that.

782
00:38:11,422 --> 00:38:14,861
Speaker 1: And Nigella Lawson declined an obe, which isn't quite the

783
00:38:14,862 --> 00:38:18,421
Speaker 1: same as a knighthood. She said, I'm not saving lives,

784
00:38:18,462 --> 00:38:19,461
Speaker 1: I'm just doing what I love.

785
00:38:21,221 --> 00:38:22,982
Speaker 3: I'd like to get nominated and wing just so I

786
00:38:22,982 --> 00:38:23,422
Speaker 3: can say that.

787
00:38:25,342 --> 00:38:27,221
Speaker 2: So do you know what he actually gets now that

788
00:38:27,302 --> 00:38:30,221
Speaker 2: he's a night Glory. He gets coat of arms.

789
00:38:30,462 --> 00:38:32,422
Speaker 3: Oh wow, that's excited.

790
00:38:32,422 --> 00:38:34,582
Speaker 2: I don't know what that means really. But he also

791
00:38:34,701 --> 00:38:37,062
Speaker 2: can get married if he wants to get married again,

792
00:38:37,862 --> 00:38:40,622
Speaker 2: renew his vows in the same place that Charles and

793
00:38:40,661 --> 00:38:41,781
Speaker 2: Diana got married.

794
00:38:41,542 --> 00:38:49,222
Speaker 1: And Paul's ten years of petitioning just for those two things.

795
00:38:50,661 --> 00:38:54,902
Speaker 2: If you have physically active friends or if you're active yourself,

796
00:38:55,102 --> 00:38:57,741
Speaker 2: you would have heard about the app Strava. Have you

797
00:38:57,741 --> 00:39:00,381
Speaker 2: guys had a bed? So it's a fitness tracker as

798
00:39:00,422 --> 00:39:02,222
Speaker 2: well as a social media app.

799
00:39:02,422 --> 00:39:02,982
Speaker 1: What do you mean?

800
00:39:03,422 --> 00:39:05,782
Speaker 2: So when you go on your runs? This is mainly

801
00:39:05,781 --> 00:39:07,942
Speaker 2: for runners. So when you go on your runs, you

802
00:39:07,942 --> 00:39:11,382
Speaker 2: can log in the Strava app, like what your pace was,

803
00:39:11,542 --> 00:39:13,861
Speaker 2: what your root was, what your heart rate was, and

804
00:39:13,862 --> 00:39:15,542
Speaker 2: then people can like it and comment on it.

805
00:39:15,622 --> 00:39:17,502
Speaker 3: Some people do a root that looks like a penis.

806
00:39:17,822 --> 00:39:18,102
Speaker 5: Yeah.

807
00:39:18,622 --> 00:39:20,301
Speaker 2: I saw a guy who did a root that like

808
00:39:20,342 --> 00:39:23,262
Speaker 2: spelled out will you marry me? For his running.

809
00:39:23,422 --> 00:39:26,182
Speaker 1: Do you win anything or do you get points?

810
00:39:26,261 --> 00:39:26,822
Speaker 3: You get anything?

811
00:39:28,661 --> 00:39:29,382
Speaker 1: That's what I want to know.

812
00:39:30,181 --> 00:39:31,942
Speaker 3: Social media like Instagram.

813
00:39:32,902 --> 00:39:36,382
Speaker 2: So there's a twenty six year old developer named Arthur

814
00:39:36,582 --> 00:39:40,102
Speaker 2: Bafard and he created a website. I think he's a

815
00:39:40,102 --> 00:39:43,062
Speaker 2: professional piss taker because he created a website called fake

816
00:39:43,102 --> 00:39:46,622
Speaker 2: My Run and it literally does exactly that. It lets

817
00:39:46,622 --> 00:39:50,781
Speaker 2: you generate completely fake but very believable running data, so

818
00:39:50,862 --> 00:39:53,942
Speaker 2: everything that Strava has, and lets you upload it into Strava,

819
00:39:54,022 --> 00:39:56,301
Speaker 2: so you can essentially fake runs that you've gone on.

820
00:39:57,102 --> 00:39:58,661
Speaker 1: I like this very much.

821
00:39:58,862 --> 00:40:01,901
Speaker 2: He said it was satire and a response to how

822
00:40:01,942 --> 00:40:06,181
Speaker 2: performative fitness tracking has become. And he's also said it's

823
00:40:06,221 --> 00:40:10,102
Speaker 2: come after the rise in Strava mules, which is what

824
00:40:10,261 --> 00:40:14,102
Speaker 2: people pay other people to do their runs for no way. Yeah,

825
00:40:14,582 --> 00:40:16,462
Speaker 2: so there are some guys who are getting like a

826
00:40:16,502 --> 00:40:18,902
Speaker 2: dollar per run or a dollar per kilometer.

827
00:40:19,382 --> 00:40:20,542
Speaker 3: And simply not enough.

828
00:40:20,661 --> 00:40:22,462
Speaker 2: It's so good, and then they just go on these

829
00:40:22,542 --> 00:40:24,701
Speaker 2: runs and then they log it through this other person's ass.

830
00:40:24,701 --> 00:40:27,062
Speaker 1: So it's not the fitness thing, it's the flex of it. Yeah,

831
00:40:27,062 --> 00:40:29,022
Speaker 1: it's like, look at all the runs I've done.

832
00:40:28,942 --> 00:40:29,902
Speaker 2: Outsourcing your runs.

833
00:40:29,942 --> 00:40:30,861
Speaker 1: That's fantastic.

834
00:40:31,502 --> 00:40:33,662
Speaker 2: I reckon I could get you to outsource my runs

835
00:40:33,661 --> 00:40:34,542
Speaker 2: because you run.

836
00:40:34,701 --> 00:40:36,142
Speaker 1: Only on a treadmill and.

837
00:40:37,701 --> 00:40:39,342
Speaker 3: Is there that much clout in a run?

838
00:40:39,462 --> 00:40:41,341
Speaker 2: You know, people who run are better than us.

839
00:40:41,582 --> 00:40:43,301
Speaker 3: Yeah. I felt like when I was dating on a

840
00:40:43,342 --> 00:40:44,862
Speaker 3: dating app, it was all you had to do was

841
00:40:44,862 --> 00:40:46,261
Speaker 3: a selfie and new interactive way.

842
00:40:46,302 --> 00:40:48,421
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you really have to do it because these

843
00:40:48,422 --> 00:40:50,341
Speaker 2: Strava meals are saying a lot of their clients are

844
00:40:50,382 --> 00:40:52,261
Speaker 2: just one offs, like they just won one good run

845
00:40:52,741 --> 00:40:55,982
Speaker 2: just to log it. Could just to show they can

846
00:40:56,102 --> 00:40:57,381
Speaker 2: do it even they can't.

847
00:40:58,102 --> 00:40:59,221
Speaker 3: Could you not just go for drive?

848
00:40:59,542 --> 00:41:03,022
Speaker 2: I remember, like years ago, like the og run influencer.

849
00:41:03,261 --> 00:41:06,381
Speaker 2: She was this Irish influencer who completely faked runs by

850
00:41:06,422 --> 00:41:08,901
Speaker 2: just driving because she would drive one kilometer, get out,

851
00:41:08,982 --> 00:41:10,942
Speaker 2: take a photo, and then try it the next kilometer.

852
00:41:11,181 --> 00:41:12,782
Speaker 2: It's smart, just very smart strategy.

853
00:41:13,221 --> 00:41:15,862
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for joining us today, out louders

854
00:41:15,862 --> 00:41:18,022
Speaker 3: for listening to today's show, and our fabulous team for

855
00:41:18,062 --> 00:41:21,661
Speaker 3: putting this show together. Mother and Mia Studios are styled

856
00:41:21,701 --> 00:41:24,501
Speaker 3: with furniture from Fenton and Fenton. You can visit Fenton

857
00:41:24,542 --> 00:41:27,062
Speaker 3: and Fenton dot com dot au and we will be

858
00:41:27,142 --> 00:41:32,142
Speaker 3: back in your ears tomorrow Bye BYEYA shout out to.

859
00:41:32,142 --> 00:41:35,342
Speaker 1: Any MoMA mia subscribers listening. If you love the show

860
00:41:35,582 --> 00:41:38,221
Speaker 1: and want to support us as well, subscribing to MoMA

861
00:41:38,302 --> 00:41:40,462
Speaker 1: mia is the very best way to do so. There

862
00:41:40,542 --> 00:41:42,262
Speaker 1: is a link in the episode description