1 00:00:10,405 --> 00:00:13,125 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mom and me a podcast. 2 00:00:13,925 --> 00:00:16,885 Speaker 2: Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:16,885 --> 00:00:20,765 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. Hey there, Before we 4 00:00:20,805 --> 00:00:24,245 Speaker 2: start today's episode, I just want to say that you 5 00:00:24,365 --> 00:00:27,165 Speaker 2: are going to be hearing from some wonderful Mma Mea 6 00:00:27,245 --> 00:00:29,765 Speaker 2: voices over the next few weeks as I work on 7 00:00:29,845 --> 00:00:34,405 Speaker 2: another project. Hollywayen Wright, Claire Stevens, a Nama Brown, who 8 00:00:34,445 --> 00:00:36,845 Speaker 2: is the executive producer of this show, are all going 9 00:00:36,885 --> 00:00:39,245 Speaker 2: to be sitting in my chair for a few weeks 10 00:00:39,725 --> 00:00:42,805 Speaker 2: and doing the same wonderful interviews that you know and 11 00:00:42,845 --> 00:00:45,685 Speaker 2: love from No Filter. There are some great conversations coming 12 00:00:45,685 --> 00:00:49,405 Speaker 2: your way about red and green flags in relationships, sex 13 00:00:49,445 --> 00:00:53,965 Speaker 2: and porn, addiction, escaping from a religious cult, narcissism, sobriety, 14 00:00:54,445 --> 00:00:57,885 Speaker 2: and more. You'll be hearing from me soon. Enjoy. 15 00:00:59,565 --> 00:01:03,525 Speaker 3: When I was single and trying to feed those addictions, 16 00:01:03,525 --> 00:01:08,125 Speaker 3: it was incredibly isolating. I mean I spent a lot 17 00:01:08,165 --> 00:01:11,085 Speaker 3: of time on people away so that I could spend 18 00:01:11,165 --> 00:01:14,525 Speaker 3: more time at home feeding the addictions. I mean, watching 19 00:01:14,605 --> 00:01:16,645 Speaker 3: porn can take up the whole day. 20 00:01:25,005 --> 00:01:28,085 Speaker 1: For Mamma Mia, this is No Filter and I'm Naima Brown. 21 00:01:28,365 --> 00:01:30,965 Speaker 1: Sitting in for mea and today we're going to be 22 00:01:31,005 --> 00:01:35,205 Speaker 1: talking about sex and porn and shame and self discovery 23 00:01:35,405 --> 00:01:40,165 Speaker 1: with a really incredible, very brave woman. Erica Garza was 24 00:01:40,205 --> 00:01:43,005 Speaker 1: only a teenager in nineteen ninety five when the infamous 25 00:01:43,045 --> 00:01:46,125 Speaker 1: pam and Tommy Lee's sex tape exploded into the world. 26 00:01:46,805 --> 00:01:50,045 Speaker 1: For anyone who doesn't know, that's Pamela Anderson of Baywatch 27 00:01:50,125 --> 00:01:53,045 Speaker 1: and Tommy Lee, the rock star drummer from Motley Crue. 28 00:01:53,245 --> 00:01:55,485 Speaker 1: They were married at the time, and it's worth mentioning 29 00:01:55,525 --> 00:01:58,765 Speaker 1: that they didn't release this tape themselves. It was stolen, 30 00:01:58,845 --> 00:02:01,485 Speaker 1: there was a big lawsuit. It's a very interesting story 31 00:02:01,525 --> 00:02:04,965 Speaker 1: in its own right, but nevertheless, it did leak and 32 00:02:05,045 --> 00:02:09,005 Speaker 1: it was a massive cultural moment. I was sixteen and 33 00:02:09,045 --> 00:02:11,525 Speaker 1: I remember it well. I never actually saw it, to 34 00:02:11,565 --> 00:02:14,525 Speaker 1: be honest, but there was no escaping knowing about it 35 00:02:14,605 --> 00:02:17,045 Speaker 1: because it was kind of the first sex tape that 36 00:02:17,125 --> 00:02:21,205 Speaker 1: went viral when the Internet was still very young. For Erica, 37 00:02:21,485 --> 00:02:25,245 Speaker 1: the tape became an obsession, one of many obsessions she 38 00:02:25,325 --> 00:02:29,445 Speaker 1: had with various pornographic clips and videos and images. This 39 00:02:29,525 --> 00:02:33,725 Speaker 1: obsession would become an addiction, as would sex and interestingly 40 00:02:33,965 --> 00:02:37,765 Speaker 1: and importantly shame. Erica has written a memoir about her 41 00:02:37,845 --> 00:02:41,525 Speaker 1: journey with sex and porn addiction called Fittingly Getting Off, 42 00:02:41,885 --> 00:02:45,085 Speaker 1: and the conversation you're about to hear will definitely challenge 43 00:02:45,165 --> 00:02:48,085 Speaker 1: not only what you think sex and porn addiction looks like, 44 00:02:48,525 --> 00:02:52,645 Speaker 1: but also what recovery looks like. Spoiler alert. For Erica, 45 00:02:52,685 --> 00:02:55,605 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean giving up sex or porn. I started 46 00:02:55,605 --> 00:02:59,125 Speaker 1: this conversation by asking Erica about why we're so much 47 00:02:59,125 --> 00:03:02,405 Speaker 1: more accepting as a culture of men who experience sex 48 00:03:02,445 --> 00:03:04,845 Speaker 1: and porn addiction. We treat it just like its kind 49 00:03:04,885 --> 00:03:08,325 Speaker 1: of normal boys will be boys' behavior, but we still 50 00:03:08,365 --> 00:03:11,685 Speaker 1: attach so much taboo around the stories of women who 51 00:03:11,765 --> 00:03:14,845 Speaker 1: experience the same thing. Why Here's Erica. 52 00:03:15,485 --> 00:03:18,125 Speaker 3: After I started writing about this stuff and coming out 53 00:03:18,165 --> 00:03:21,725 Speaker 3: into public and sharing it, I received so much email 54 00:03:21,925 --> 00:03:25,645 Speaker 3: from men and women that were saying the same things. 55 00:03:25,725 --> 00:03:27,885 Speaker 3: And I started going to like sex and love addicts, 56 00:03:27,925 --> 00:03:30,725 Speaker 3: anonymous meetings and same thing men and women in the room. 57 00:03:30,765 --> 00:03:33,005 Speaker 3: There was usually more men, but men and women were 58 00:03:33,045 --> 00:03:36,045 Speaker 3: saying the same things as far as how the addiction began, 59 00:03:36,485 --> 00:03:38,925 Speaker 3: how it progressed, so there were a lot of similarities. 60 00:03:39,285 --> 00:03:41,525 Speaker 3: The only thing is that I think women aren't talking 61 00:03:41,525 --> 00:03:45,165 Speaker 3: about it enough. And if you don't see or hear 62 00:03:45,285 --> 00:03:47,845 Speaker 3: other people talking about these things, it's hard to be 63 00:03:47,885 --> 00:03:50,645 Speaker 3: the first person to stand up. What is your family 64 00:03:50,685 --> 00:03:53,725 Speaker 3: going to say? What are people going to think at work? 65 00:03:54,165 --> 00:03:56,005 Speaker 3: What are people going to say in the comments? I mean, 66 00:03:56,005 --> 00:03:59,285 Speaker 3: there's a lot of hate and jokes that would come 67 00:03:59,365 --> 00:04:01,725 Speaker 3: up around women that I don't think would come up 68 00:04:01,765 --> 00:04:04,045 Speaker 3: with men. Like you said, they would just say high five. 69 00:04:04,245 --> 00:04:09,565 Speaker 3: You know, he's just this lithario whatever done wan doesn't 70 00:04:09,605 --> 00:04:11,885 Speaker 3: work the same. And I think that even if we're 71 00:04:11,925 --> 00:04:14,805 Speaker 3: just talking about sex, not even sex addiction, it's the 72 00:04:14,845 --> 00:04:18,725 Speaker 3: same idea, this idea that women are somehow not as sexual. 73 00:04:19,285 --> 00:04:21,445 Speaker 3: Men are always trying to get sex from women, and 74 00:04:21,485 --> 00:04:23,165 Speaker 3: women are always trying to say, well, I have a 75 00:04:23,205 --> 00:04:26,245 Speaker 3: headache or whatever, and it's just not the case. And 76 00:04:26,285 --> 00:04:29,805 Speaker 3: I think that this idea that women are not sexual 77 00:04:29,885 --> 00:04:32,965 Speaker 3: or women can't become sex addicts will change the more 78 00:04:33,005 --> 00:04:35,725 Speaker 3: that we decide to talk about it. And I'm hoping 79 00:04:35,765 --> 00:04:38,045 Speaker 3: that by sharing my story and making sure I'm not 80 00:04:38,165 --> 00:04:41,085 Speaker 3: blurred and any kind of interviews that I do, whenever 81 00:04:41,685 --> 00:04:43,565 Speaker 3: I talk about this stuff, I make sure that I 82 00:04:43,605 --> 00:04:47,125 Speaker 3: say my name, I say I'm a normal person. I'm married, 83 00:04:47,205 --> 00:04:49,405 Speaker 3: I have a child. You know, I try to break 84 00:04:49,445 --> 00:04:52,725 Speaker 3: through these these ideas of what they think a sex 85 00:04:52,765 --> 00:04:55,525 Speaker 3: addict is supposed to look like. I've gotten so many 86 00:04:55,645 --> 00:04:58,965 Speaker 3: questions like, well, were you sexually abused as a child? 87 00:04:59,005 --> 00:05:02,085 Speaker 3: Were you sexually assaulted? And men don't get the same question. 88 00:05:02,245 --> 00:05:05,765 Speaker 3: And there's this idea that women something bad has to 89 00:05:05,845 --> 00:05:08,645 Speaker 3: happen to them for them to go down this path, 90 00:05:08,685 --> 00:05:10,205 Speaker 3: and it's just not the case. 91 00:05:10,485 --> 00:05:12,245 Speaker 1: Which is exactly where I kind of want to go 92 00:05:12,285 --> 00:05:16,205 Speaker 1: to next with you. That creates that shame, that embedded 93 00:05:16,245 --> 00:05:19,605 Speaker 1: shame into women as sexual beings right from the beginning, 94 00:05:19,965 --> 00:05:22,445 Speaker 1: And I want to read something that you wrote. What 95 00:05:22,485 --> 00:05:25,125 Speaker 1: I got was an elaborate mix of shame and sexual 96 00:05:25,165 --> 00:05:27,645 Speaker 1: excitement I had come to depend on since I was 97 00:05:27,685 --> 00:05:30,765 Speaker 1: twelve years old, and my methods of getting this only 98 00:05:30,805 --> 00:05:33,965 Speaker 1: became darker and more intense, so that it reached havoc 99 00:05:34,045 --> 00:05:36,285 Speaker 1: on all aspects of my life until I became a 100 00:05:36,325 --> 00:05:40,365 Speaker 1: shell of a person, isolated on a path to certain destruction. 101 00:05:41,765 --> 00:05:43,445 Speaker 1: And I want to hone it on and start at 102 00:05:43,485 --> 00:05:45,805 Speaker 1: that timeline now for you at twelve years old, because 103 00:05:46,205 --> 00:05:49,045 Speaker 1: to read your memoir, it becomes very clear that shame 104 00:05:49,165 --> 00:05:53,645 Speaker 1: came first. Shame came before the sex addiction, the love addiction, 105 00:05:53,845 --> 00:05:56,605 Speaker 1: the porn addiction. Talk to me about twelve year old 106 00:05:56,765 --> 00:05:59,725 Speaker 1: Erica and what you were exposed to and thinking about 107 00:05:59,765 --> 00:06:00,325 Speaker 1: at that time. 108 00:06:01,845 --> 00:06:06,845 Speaker 3: I grew up in a Catholic Latino household in I 109 00:06:06,885 --> 00:06:09,325 Speaker 3: was born in eighty two from the nineties. I was twelve, 110 00:06:10,085 --> 00:06:13,525 Speaker 3: and in that environment, nobody ever talked about sex. I 111 00:06:13,525 --> 00:06:16,525 Speaker 3: also went to Catholic school, so at school and at home, 112 00:06:16,685 --> 00:06:18,845 Speaker 3: nobody talked about sex, except to say that it was 113 00:06:18,885 --> 00:06:23,405 Speaker 3: something bad, something dirty, or something that only happens between 114 00:06:23,405 --> 00:06:26,045 Speaker 3: a man and a woman to make babies. It did 115 00:06:26,085 --> 00:06:28,485 Speaker 3: not happen between a girl and her water faucet, as 116 00:06:28,525 --> 00:06:32,005 Speaker 3: I discovered in the bathtub at twelve. And when I 117 00:06:32,045 --> 00:06:36,205 Speaker 3: made that discovery, I remember thinking that it was like 118 00:06:36,285 --> 00:06:39,085 Speaker 3: I found the secret that I wasn't supposed to find, 119 00:06:39,205 --> 00:06:43,885 Speaker 3: and it was exciting and gratifying, and I wanted to 120 00:06:43,925 --> 00:06:45,445 Speaker 3: do it more and more. And I don't think there's 121 00:06:45,485 --> 00:06:49,605 Speaker 3: anything addictive about that or abnormal about that, totally normal stuff, 122 00:06:49,805 --> 00:06:53,965 Speaker 3: sexual explorations. But after I would have the orgasm, there 123 00:06:53,965 --> 00:06:57,925 Speaker 3: would be this overwhelming shame and guilt and fear that 124 00:06:58,005 --> 00:07:01,885 Speaker 3: people would find out what I was doing. And I've 125 00:07:01,925 --> 00:07:05,365 Speaker 3: always said that I think shame has driven my addiction, 126 00:07:05,805 --> 00:07:10,325 Speaker 3: and I often wonder if I had just known about 127 00:07:10,365 --> 00:07:12,885 Speaker 3: sex and known that what I was doing was totally 128 00:07:12,965 --> 00:07:16,925 Speaker 3: normal and other kids were doing it, that I probably 129 00:07:16,965 --> 00:07:21,085 Speaker 3: wouldn't have gone down that path. And around twelve years old, 130 00:07:21,085 --> 00:07:23,565 Speaker 3: that same year that I started masturbating, I was also 131 00:07:23,645 --> 00:07:26,965 Speaker 3: diagnosed with scoliosis, which is a curvature of the spine, 132 00:07:27,045 --> 00:07:29,165 Speaker 3: and I had to wear this backbrace to school that 133 00:07:29,205 --> 00:07:31,765 Speaker 3: I couldn't hide under my clothes. It was very obvious, 134 00:07:32,285 --> 00:07:37,165 Speaker 3: and I turned inward became really shy, socially anxious, withdrawn 135 00:07:37,925 --> 00:07:40,165 Speaker 3: and then I started getting bullied at school, which just 136 00:07:40,205 --> 00:07:43,005 Speaker 3: made it all the more worse. And what I think 137 00:07:43,125 --> 00:07:50,445 Speaker 3: shifted my normal sexual explorations into something problematic was that 138 00:07:50,605 --> 00:07:53,165 Speaker 3: I found that masturbation was a nice escape from that. 139 00:07:53,285 --> 00:07:55,965 Speaker 3: When I would masturbate, I would get a break from 140 00:07:56,005 --> 00:07:57,765 Speaker 3: all that I could just tune into my body. It 141 00:07:57,805 --> 00:08:01,125 Speaker 3: was almost like mindfulness, like meditation. I could just tune 142 00:08:01,165 --> 00:08:04,245 Speaker 3: into my body and everything else shut off. But unlike mindfulness, 143 00:08:04,325 --> 00:08:07,405 Speaker 3: where afterward you're calm and relaxed and you have more 144 00:08:07,445 --> 00:08:10,685 Speaker 3: focus and clarity. I would be filmed with that shame again. 145 00:08:10,765 --> 00:08:14,525 Speaker 3: I would feel so much guilt, and I didn't know 146 00:08:14,565 --> 00:08:18,005 Speaker 3: how to separate those two feelings, and that would carry 147 00:08:18,005 --> 00:08:20,445 Speaker 3: over into my sex life, into the kind of poor 148 00:08:20,485 --> 00:08:23,285 Speaker 3: and I watched later. I didn't know how to feel 149 00:08:23,365 --> 00:08:28,605 Speaker 3: sexual pleasure without feeling sexual shame. They were very much intertwined. 150 00:08:29,125 --> 00:08:33,445 Speaker 1: And where do you think that knowledge that shame was? 151 00:08:33,885 --> 00:08:38,925 Speaker 1: In that instance? The correct response came from you talk 152 00:08:38,965 --> 00:08:41,805 Speaker 1: about growing up in a you know, a conservative Catholic 153 00:08:42,325 --> 00:08:46,045 Speaker 1: family and environment, but you also talk about not having 154 00:08:46,325 --> 00:08:49,445 Speaker 1: sex education and not knowing much about your body. And 155 00:08:49,485 --> 00:08:52,485 Speaker 1: so where did the message come that this pleasure is 156 00:08:52,525 --> 00:08:55,805 Speaker 1: inherently shameful, or that this feeling or this act is 157 00:08:55,845 --> 00:08:56,885 Speaker 1: inherently shameful. 158 00:08:57,645 --> 00:09:00,325 Speaker 3: I think I picked up on little clues along the way. 159 00:09:00,725 --> 00:09:04,165 Speaker 3: Whenever somebody was being intimate on TV, it would be like, oh, 160 00:09:04,205 --> 00:09:07,045 Speaker 3: shut your eyes, look the other way, no discussion about 161 00:09:07,085 --> 00:09:09,525 Speaker 3: it afterwards. So of course that's like, what's going on? 162 00:09:09,565 --> 00:09:11,965 Speaker 3: You know, I want to know? And becomes way more interesting. 163 00:09:12,525 --> 00:09:15,045 Speaker 3: And then I remember this time. My mom hates when 164 00:09:15,045 --> 00:09:18,565 Speaker 3: I tell this story, but I remember this time driving 165 00:09:18,605 --> 00:09:20,925 Speaker 3: in our neighborhood and there was a lot of teenage 166 00:09:20,925 --> 00:09:24,765 Speaker 3: pregnancy in my neighborhood and my mom pointing to one 167 00:09:24,765 --> 00:09:27,285 Speaker 3: of these like sixteen year old pregnant girls in saying 168 00:09:28,045 --> 00:09:30,605 Speaker 3: don't ever let that happen to you, and then pointing 169 00:09:30,645 --> 00:09:33,125 Speaker 3: to my crotch and saying, don't let anybody ever touch 170 00:09:33,165 --> 00:09:37,085 Speaker 3: you down there. And that just been so humiliating, so scary. 171 00:09:37,845 --> 00:09:40,445 Speaker 3: And you know, my mom had she was a young mom. 172 00:09:40,485 --> 00:09:43,125 Speaker 3: She had my brother when she was eighteen, and I 173 00:09:43,165 --> 00:09:47,005 Speaker 3: think that she probably had those same messages from her parents. 174 00:09:47,765 --> 00:09:50,125 Speaker 3: And if I wasn't getting those messages, then it was 175 00:09:50,165 --> 00:09:53,405 Speaker 3: just silence. And so when something is not talked about, 176 00:09:53,605 --> 00:09:56,325 Speaker 3: that also sends the message that it's too bad to 177 00:09:56,365 --> 00:09:57,605 Speaker 3: talk about to dirty. 178 00:09:58,285 --> 00:10:02,245 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not a big leap from those messages, those conversations, 179 00:10:02,285 --> 00:10:04,045 Speaker 1: those moments to shame. 180 00:10:04,045 --> 00:10:05,165 Speaker 3: Is it right? 181 00:10:05,365 --> 00:10:10,005 Speaker 1: Yeah, As a fellow teenager of the nineties, I did 182 00:10:10,045 --> 00:10:13,365 Speaker 1: have to laugh when I was reading your memoir about 183 00:10:13,445 --> 00:10:17,285 Speaker 1: the softcore on cable TV at night. That was a 184 00:10:17,325 --> 00:10:20,725 Speaker 1: real moment, you know, before the Internet, before all of 185 00:10:20,765 --> 00:10:23,685 Speaker 1: the things that came footing into your life later. But 186 00:10:23,885 --> 00:10:27,725 Speaker 1: you know, at twelve, where did you find I suppose 187 00:10:27,765 --> 00:10:30,485 Speaker 1: what we would just generally refer to as porn. You know, 188 00:10:30,525 --> 00:10:33,805 Speaker 1: where did you find these visual aids? 189 00:10:34,245 --> 00:10:36,885 Speaker 3: Well, it's exactly that I found it on late night 190 00:10:36,965 --> 00:10:39,925 Speaker 3: cable TV. First, Shannon Tweed was the actress from the 191 00:10:39,965 --> 00:10:44,245 Speaker 3: nineties that I will never forget. And then the Internet 192 00:10:44,285 --> 00:10:47,125 Speaker 3: started coming out. We got our computer, first computer in 193 00:10:47,165 --> 00:10:50,645 Speaker 3: the living room. I think it was like ninety six 194 00:10:50,845 --> 00:10:53,765 Speaker 3: or something like that. It was dial up internet, you know, 195 00:10:54,005 --> 00:10:56,365 Speaker 3: so we have that whole like static sound. And it 196 00:10:56,445 --> 00:10:58,965 Speaker 3: started off just with cybersex. So I moved from cable 197 00:10:59,005 --> 00:11:02,685 Speaker 3: TV to cybersex. And then suddenly there were pictures that 198 00:11:02,685 --> 00:11:05,485 Speaker 3: I could download, and those took forever to download, and 199 00:11:05,525 --> 00:11:07,925 Speaker 3: that was kind of part of it, this like anticipation 200 00:11:08,165 --> 00:11:10,765 Speaker 3: of what I was going to see, and because the 201 00:11:10,805 --> 00:11:13,245 Speaker 3: computer was in the living room, also having like this 202 00:11:13,325 --> 00:11:15,965 Speaker 3: fear that somebody would come and find me, so this 203 00:11:16,045 --> 00:11:19,525 Speaker 3: like adrenaline rush was part of it. And then holding 204 00:11:19,565 --> 00:11:21,685 Speaker 3: those images in my head until I was alone in 205 00:11:21,685 --> 00:11:24,205 Speaker 3: the bathroom or in my room, so that just kind 206 00:11:24,205 --> 00:11:28,445 Speaker 3: of furthered the anticipation. And then you know, as technology 207 00:11:28,485 --> 00:11:34,445 Speaker 3: became more sophisticated and porn became more accessible, speeds were faster. 208 00:11:34,605 --> 00:11:38,525 Speaker 3: I can suddenly have streaming videos. I had my own laptop. 209 00:11:38,605 --> 00:11:41,685 Speaker 3: Now I could take it into my room. And just 210 00:11:41,765 --> 00:11:45,005 Speaker 3: as you know, the Internet was becoming a more accessible, 211 00:11:45,045 --> 00:11:48,005 Speaker 3: porn was becoming more accessible, my problems were also getting 212 00:11:48,005 --> 00:11:52,285 Speaker 3: a little more complicated. And so I really trained my 213 00:11:52,405 --> 00:11:56,325 Speaker 3: mind to look at porn as a crutch, as an 214 00:11:56,405 --> 00:11:59,765 Speaker 3: escape route. And later, when I started getting attention from 215 00:11:59,845 --> 00:12:03,045 Speaker 3: boys in high school, then that just kind of played 216 00:12:03,045 --> 00:12:05,245 Speaker 3: into that I treated boys the same way that I 217 00:12:05,245 --> 00:12:08,165 Speaker 3: would treat porn as just like an escape route, something 218 00:12:08,205 --> 00:12:10,085 Speaker 3: that was going to take me away from these feelings. 219 00:12:11,205 --> 00:12:13,645 Speaker 1: It's interesting you talk about that, you know, the waiting 220 00:12:13,725 --> 00:12:16,845 Speaker 1: for an image to download, or the fear that someone 221 00:12:16,925 --> 00:12:19,965 Speaker 1: might stumble in and catch you, and those kinds of things. 222 00:12:20,045 --> 00:12:25,165 Speaker 1: And again going back to that feedback loop of pleasure, shame, pleasure, shame, 223 00:12:25,725 --> 00:12:27,885 Speaker 1: because you're right about something I'd never thought about before, 224 00:12:27,925 --> 00:12:31,645 Speaker 1: which is this idea of shame addiction as well, that 225 00:12:31,285 --> 00:12:35,805 Speaker 1: that rush of shame, just like any other rush, became 226 00:12:35,885 --> 00:12:38,885 Speaker 1: something that you were seeking out as well. Tell me 227 00:12:38,925 --> 00:12:40,485 Speaker 1: a little bit about that feeling. 228 00:12:41,445 --> 00:12:44,485 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do 229 00:12:44,685 --> 00:12:49,045 Speaker 3: with adrenaline, This feeling that I'm doing something wrong, this 230 00:12:49,085 --> 00:12:52,725 Speaker 3: feeling that I might get caught and I whop. Sure 231 00:12:52,765 --> 00:12:54,925 Speaker 3: we'll get into this later. But I still watch porn now. 232 00:12:55,005 --> 00:12:58,605 Speaker 3: So I don't have any sort of ideas about porn 233 00:12:58,685 --> 00:13:00,765 Speaker 3: being bad, and you know, I'm anti porn or whatever. 234 00:13:00,805 --> 00:13:02,485 Speaker 3: I think that you can use it in a healthy way. 235 00:13:02,885 --> 00:13:05,525 Speaker 3: But I can tell the difference between watching it from 236 00:13:05,565 --> 00:13:08,525 Speaker 3: a place of shame, which is filled with this like dark, 237 00:13:08,765 --> 00:13:12,645 Speaker 3: heavy adrenaline fuel feeling, and when I'm watching it for 238 00:13:12,725 --> 00:13:15,445 Speaker 3: pleasure because I simply want to, not because I need to. 239 00:13:16,125 --> 00:13:19,485 Speaker 3: And that's a really subtle difference, but something that I 240 00:13:19,525 --> 00:13:22,005 Speaker 3: had to learn along the way. And another dealing with 241 00:13:22,045 --> 00:13:24,605 Speaker 3: the shame is that I would start to look for 242 00:13:24,725 --> 00:13:27,525 Speaker 3: clips that would give me that dose of shame and pleasure. 243 00:13:27,565 --> 00:13:29,645 Speaker 3: So I would look for like clips that were degrading 244 00:13:29,645 --> 00:13:33,365 Speaker 3: to women, clips where I felt like, yeah, like women 245 00:13:33,405 --> 00:13:38,605 Speaker 3: were getting hurt or you know, slapped around, told terrible things. 246 00:13:39,085 --> 00:13:40,805 Speaker 3: And then I would look for men who would treat 247 00:13:40,845 --> 00:13:42,965 Speaker 3: me that same way. And it was all to get 248 00:13:43,005 --> 00:13:46,005 Speaker 3: that same adrenaline rush that like I'm better than this, 249 00:13:46,205 --> 00:13:49,085 Speaker 3: but this is all I deserve, you know, Like I shouldn't. 250 00:13:49,285 --> 00:13:51,165 Speaker 3: I should be going for somebody who treats me, well, 251 00:13:51,165 --> 00:13:53,885 Speaker 3: I shouldn't be watching this kind of porn, but I 252 00:13:53,925 --> 00:13:56,445 Speaker 3: would do it, and it would give me that double 253 00:13:56,485 --> 00:13:59,365 Speaker 3: dose that shame and pleasure at the same time, because 254 00:13:59,365 --> 00:14:01,445 Speaker 3: I didn't know how to separate those two things. 255 00:14:01,885 --> 00:14:06,245 Speaker 1: And so this process, this habit, this experience that began 256 00:14:06,325 --> 00:14:10,845 Speaker 1: at twelve, it carries through, you know, through your your 257 00:14:11,005 --> 00:14:14,085 Speaker 1: high school years, your teen years, and you're right about 258 00:14:14,125 --> 00:14:17,685 Speaker 1: wondering whether or not your parents suspected anything, but you 259 00:14:17,685 --> 00:14:20,885 Speaker 1: don't think that ultimately they did or what do you 260 00:14:20,925 --> 00:14:23,365 Speaker 1: think that they knew about what was happening in your 261 00:14:23,405 --> 00:14:24,165 Speaker 1: life at that time. 262 00:14:24,725 --> 00:14:26,965 Speaker 3: I think they were too busy to even think about 263 00:14:27,005 --> 00:14:33,245 Speaker 3: it and probably weren't as knowledgeable about how these things work, 264 00:14:33,285 --> 00:14:35,885 Speaker 3: how addictions work, and sex addiction. I mean, nobody was 265 00:14:35,925 --> 00:14:38,405 Speaker 3: even really talking about it then. Porn addiction that wasn't 266 00:14:38,565 --> 00:14:41,085 Speaker 3: that wasn't really a thing because it was also new, 267 00:14:41,245 --> 00:14:43,805 Speaker 3: so they wouldn't have known. I think what they know now, 268 00:14:43,845 --> 00:14:46,645 Speaker 3: well now they know because of my book, But they 269 00:14:46,765 --> 00:14:49,725 Speaker 3: like to make jokes now about like, oh, now we 270 00:14:49,845 --> 00:14:52,445 Speaker 3: know what you were doing behind closed doors when we 271 00:14:52,445 --> 00:14:55,125 Speaker 3: were having like family parties. It's like a big joke 272 00:14:55,205 --> 00:14:57,885 Speaker 3: with my family and like whatever, I'll be light about 273 00:14:57,885 --> 00:15:01,205 Speaker 3: it too because it makes it less awkward. But yeah, 274 00:15:01,285 --> 00:15:03,525 Speaker 3: I really think that they just didn't know or they 275 00:15:04,325 --> 00:15:05,285 Speaker 3: were just too busy. 276 00:15:06,005 --> 00:15:08,165 Speaker 1: And it never occurred to you to kind of compare 277 00:15:08,245 --> 00:15:12,085 Speaker 1: notes with your peers with friends. You know, you must 278 00:15:12,085 --> 00:15:17,125 Speaker 1: have wondered whether the other kids your age had stumbled 279 00:15:17,205 --> 00:15:19,485 Speaker 1: upon what you stumbled upon, whether it was the faucet 280 00:15:19,485 --> 00:15:22,805 Speaker 1: in the bathtub or you know, the slowly downloading images 281 00:15:23,245 --> 00:15:26,525 Speaker 1: in the early Internet, but you never you never asked 282 00:15:27,045 --> 00:15:27,365 Speaker 1: why not. 283 00:15:27,565 --> 00:15:30,125 Speaker 3: No, it was terrified of people finding that out, even 284 00:15:30,245 --> 00:15:33,245 Speaker 3: like finding the right words to bring up that conversation 285 00:15:33,525 --> 00:15:37,765 Speaker 3: just seemed like the furthest thing from normal, and everyone 286 00:15:37,805 --> 00:15:40,805 Speaker 3: would label me as weird. I mean, I didn't want 287 00:15:40,845 --> 00:15:43,485 Speaker 3: to be that person because I felt so ashamed of it, 288 00:15:43,685 --> 00:15:46,245 Speaker 3: you know, Like I said, I was diagnosed with scoliosis, 289 00:15:46,565 --> 00:15:49,605 Speaker 3: and I remember as part of like before I got 290 00:15:49,645 --> 00:15:51,205 Speaker 3: my back brace, they had to do all these X 291 00:15:51,325 --> 00:15:53,565 Speaker 3: rays and I remember the feeling of being in the 292 00:15:53,565 --> 00:15:56,445 Speaker 3: hospital gown and the X ray technician being in the 293 00:15:56,485 --> 00:15:58,645 Speaker 3: other room looking at my X ray sheets and thinking 294 00:15:58,725 --> 00:16:00,165 Speaker 3: they were going to be able to tell that I'd 295 00:16:00,205 --> 00:16:04,805 Speaker 3: masturbated just by looking at those pictures and also thinking 296 00:16:04,925 --> 00:16:08,085 Speaker 3: that I got scoliosis because I masturbated in the bathtub. 297 00:16:08,165 --> 00:16:09,845 Speaker 3: I thought like the way that I had my body 298 00:16:09,845 --> 00:16:12,445 Speaker 3: in the bathtub, and I thought my parents were going 299 00:16:12,525 --> 00:16:15,365 Speaker 3: to find out all their church friends, Like it was 300 00:16:15,405 --> 00:16:18,725 Speaker 3: just this horrible thought. So yeah, the idea of bringing 301 00:16:18,765 --> 00:16:21,205 Speaker 3: it up to anyone was mortified. 302 00:16:21,405 --> 00:16:25,325 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, that's beyond shame, that's terror. That's real, 303 00:16:25,445 --> 00:16:30,805 Speaker 1: like existential fear. Tell me about those first chat rooms 304 00:16:31,205 --> 00:16:34,485 Speaker 1: that you joined and how that changed and started to 305 00:16:34,565 --> 00:16:37,085 Speaker 1: kind of guide you to the next level of this 306 00:16:37,205 --> 00:16:37,965 Speaker 1: experience for you. 307 00:16:39,125 --> 00:16:41,445 Speaker 3: So I was a really lonely kid, like I said, 308 00:16:41,485 --> 00:16:43,885 Speaker 3: when I got my back brace, I started getting bullied, 309 00:16:43,965 --> 00:16:47,725 Speaker 3: and so I was really introverted, socially anxious. And when 310 00:16:47,765 --> 00:16:50,165 Speaker 3: I would go online, it was much easier to talk 311 00:16:50,165 --> 00:16:52,445 Speaker 3: to people. I could think about what I was going 312 00:16:52,485 --> 00:16:55,925 Speaker 3: to say, I could backspace edit, so all of that 313 00:16:56,005 --> 00:16:58,445 Speaker 3: was really easy. And then when I started to find 314 00:16:58,805 --> 00:17:00,805 Speaker 3: you know, people that would ask me, you know it 315 00:17:00,845 --> 00:17:02,965 Speaker 3: was it would always start off like asl I'm sure 316 00:17:03,645 --> 00:17:06,165 Speaker 3: you know that the age sex location. It would start 317 00:17:06,205 --> 00:17:08,285 Speaker 3: off like that, And so I became really familiar with 318 00:17:08,365 --> 00:17:12,605 Speaker 3: the lingo that was just some exciting way to connect 319 00:17:12,685 --> 00:17:16,725 Speaker 3: with somebody, but also kind of feed into those sexual 320 00:17:16,765 --> 00:17:19,565 Speaker 3: feelings and explore a little bit and learn something. I 321 00:17:19,565 --> 00:17:21,565 Speaker 3: felt like I was actually learning something that was going 322 00:17:21,645 --> 00:17:22,765 Speaker 3: to be valuable later on. 323 00:17:23,605 --> 00:17:27,525 Speaker 1: Did you have a sense of how dangerous and manipulative 324 00:17:27,565 --> 00:17:30,005 Speaker 1: those spaces could be at that time? 325 00:17:30,365 --> 00:17:34,405 Speaker 3: Not? No. I would always say that I was sixteen, 326 00:17:34,485 --> 00:17:37,645 Speaker 3: even though I was twelve and thirteen, and sixteen is 327 00:17:37,685 --> 00:17:39,725 Speaker 3: still really young. But I would think, like that makes 328 00:17:39,725 --> 00:17:43,245 Speaker 3: me seem older, and it didn't seem to matter to 329 00:17:43,285 --> 00:17:45,165 Speaker 3: the people I was talking to. Who I mean they 330 00:17:45,205 --> 00:17:47,445 Speaker 3: said they were They could have been kids too, who knows. 331 00:17:47,525 --> 00:17:49,685 Speaker 3: I mean, they could have been like three teens, but 332 00:17:49,765 --> 00:17:52,885 Speaker 3: they would sometimes say they're like forty or thirty or whatever, 333 00:17:52,965 --> 00:17:55,285 Speaker 3: And it didn't matter to me. And I had no 334 00:17:55,365 --> 00:17:58,005 Speaker 3: idea that it was something that was dangerous. We never 335 00:17:58,045 --> 00:18:01,445 Speaker 3: exchanged any sort of like phone number or address or anything, thankfully, 336 00:18:01,845 --> 00:18:04,765 Speaker 3: but now, like as a parent and knowing what I know, 337 00:18:05,005 --> 00:18:08,445 Speaker 3: like watching enough like crime documentaries, like yeah, that's really 338 00:18:08,485 --> 00:18:11,485 Speaker 3: scary stuff. But I wouldn't have known then. It was 339 00:18:11,525 --> 00:18:13,725 Speaker 3: all just so new at the time, the Internet. We 340 00:18:13,725 --> 00:18:15,205 Speaker 3: were just learning this stuff as we went. 341 00:18:21,005 --> 00:18:23,445 Speaker 1: After this short break. What happens when the Pam and 342 00:18:23,485 --> 00:18:26,885 Speaker 1: Tommy Lee sex tape drops like a grenade into Erica's world? 343 00:18:27,245 --> 00:18:29,685 Speaker 1: And how did her porn addiction also turn into a 344 00:18:29,725 --> 00:18:37,085 Speaker 1: sex addiction as she got older? And then fast forward, 345 00:18:37,205 --> 00:18:39,925 Speaker 1: I think you're about fifteen sixteen, maybe around this time 346 00:18:40,005 --> 00:18:44,005 Speaker 1: where the cultural phenomena that had a massive impact on 347 00:18:44,085 --> 00:18:47,245 Speaker 1: all of us, that was the Pam and Tommy Lee 348 00:18:47,405 --> 00:18:52,445 Speaker 1: sex tape drops explodes into the world, really explodes into 349 00:18:52,485 --> 00:18:56,525 Speaker 1: your world. Tell me about how that the visuals and 350 00:18:56,605 --> 00:19:00,365 Speaker 1: the experience of that sex tape impacted you. 351 00:19:01,125 --> 00:19:03,165 Speaker 3: Well, I definitely got to see a lot more than 352 00:19:03,165 --> 00:19:06,245 Speaker 3: I saw on Cinemax. Late at night, I found the 353 00:19:06,245 --> 00:19:08,885 Speaker 3: tape in my brother's room, his girlfriend at the time. 354 00:19:08,885 --> 00:19:10,925 Speaker 3: I would hate out with her. She would hang out 355 00:19:10,925 --> 00:19:12,445 Speaker 3: with me more than she hung out with him. But 356 00:19:12,925 --> 00:19:13,765 Speaker 3: so was she. 357 00:19:14,205 --> 00:19:16,605 Speaker 1: Well, you and she had a really interesting experience together 358 00:19:17,045 --> 00:19:18,365 Speaker 1: around that tape, didn't you. 359 00:19:18,565 --> 00:19:22,125 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yes, So, so he was somewhere and she decided 360 00:19:22,165 --> 00:19:24,565 Speaker 3: to watch it with me in my room and then 361 00:19:24,565 --> 00:19:27,085 Speaker 3: she decided to sleep, And so watching the tape, obviously 362 00:19:27,165 --> 00:19:30,205 Speaker 3: it was like thrilling that remember, that adrenaline rush was there, 363 00:19:30,245 --> 00:19:34,205 Speaker 3: but it also wasn't so I wasn't too ashamed because 364 00:19:34,245 --> 00:19:36,605 Speaker 3: somebody was watching it with me, so it made it 365 00:19:36,685 --> 00:19:39,325 Speaker 3: less bad, Like whoa, Okay, she's a girl, I'm a girl, 366 00:19:39,365 --> 00:19:41,885 Speaker 3: Like we're sharing this, it's not so weird. But she 367 00:19:42,045 --> 00:19:44,805 Speaker 3: was more like giggling about how like funny it was, 368 00:19:44,925 --> 00:19:47,085 Speaker 3: and I was like getting turned on. I'm like, okay, 369 00:19:47,165 --> 00:19:50,445 Speaker 3: keep it cool, you know, don't masturbate here, like save 370 00:19:50,525 --> 00:19:53,005 Speaker 3: it for later. And then that night she decided to 371 00:19:53,005 --> 00:19:55,885 Speaker 3: sleep over that night and my parents, me and the 372 00:19:56,005 --> 00:19:58,725 Speaker 3: good Catholic parents they were, they wouldn't let my brother 373 00:19:58,805 --> 00:20:00,685 Speaker 3: and her sleep in the same room, and so she 374 00:20:00,725 --> 00:20:04,245 Speaker 3: would sleep in my bed. We'd slept together before like that, 375 00:20:04,525 --> 00:20:06,725 Speaker 3: and it didn't seem like a big deal. But something 376 00:20:06,725 --> 00:20:09,605 Speaker 3: about the tape being on my mind and obviously on 377 00:20:09,645 --> 00:20:12,205 Speaker 3: her mind because she told me to kiss her or 378 00:20:12,285 --> 00:20:14,245 Speaker 3: she she kissed me first, sorry, and then she told 379 00:20:14,285 --> 00:20:16,925 Speaker 3: me to kiss her back, and I mean that was 380 00:20:16,965 --> 00:20:18,805 Speaker 3: like my first kiss and it wasn't really like no 381 00:20:18,885 --> 00:20:21,045 Speaker 3: tongue or anything. It was like a peck, but still 382 00:20:21,165 --> 00:20:24,445 Speaker 3: like mouth to mouth kiss my brother's girlfriend. Sexy tape 383 00:20:24,485 --> 00:20:28,165 Speaker 3: on my mind. It was it was exciting and I 384 00:20:28,285 --> 00:20:31,925 Speaker 3: liked it, but but yeah, I think my reaction to 385 00:20:32,005 --> 00:20:33,525 Speaker 3: it was just kind of weird, like I didn't know 386 00:20:33,565 --> 00:20:35,845 Speaker 3: what to say. I said something really stupid. I forget 387 00:20:35,885 --> 00:20:38,285 Speaker 3: what I just turned around and we never talked about 388 00:20:38,285 --> 00:20:42,405 Speaker 3: it again or anything like that. But yeah, very much 389 00:20:42,445 --> 00:20:44,165 Speaker 3: inspired by Pam and Tommy. 390 00:20:44,485 --> 00:20:47,285 Speaker 1: Well and I do you know, fast forward to your acknowledgments. 391 00:20:47,405 --> 00:20:49,805 Speaker 1: I loved that you thank them and your acknowledgments, you know, 392 00:20:50,365 --> 00:20:53,005 Speaker 1: for what they brought, what they brought to your life. 393 00:20:53,405 --> 00:20:57,165 Speaker 1: But so interesting because you know, those kind of early experiences, 394 00:20:57,205 --> 00:21:00,645 Speaker 1: those experimenting that we do in our you know, in 395 00:21:00,645 --> 00:21:03,405 Speaker 1: our teen years, very normal, but you know again, because 396 00:21:03,445 --> 00:21:06,725 Speaker 1: you had this deep well of kind of hidden shame 397 00:21:07,445 --> 00:21:10,245 Speaker 1: that started to intersect with a few other I would 398 00:21:10,285 --> 00:21:12,525 Speaker 1: say kind of maybe obsessions correct me if I'm wrong. 399 00:21:12,565 --> 00:21:16,925 Speaker 1: In your life at that time. One was discovering your sexuality, 400 00:21:17,485 --> 00:21:20,605 Speaker 1: a kind of desire to really understand yourself better and 401 00:21:20,605 --> 00:21:23,045 Speaker 1: where your desires were coming from and what they meaned, 402 00:21:23,445 --> 00:21:26,645 Speaker 1: and to desire a real obsession to lose your virginity. 403 00:21:27,045 --> 00:21:29,845 Speaker 1: That became almost a kind of quest the eer on, 404 00:21:30,605 --> 00:21:34,485 Speaker 1: but so informed by the porn that you've been watching 405 00:21:34,525 --> 00:21:37,245 Speaker 1: and the experiences you'd had up to that point, tell 406 00:21:37,285 --> 00:21:40,565 Speaker 1: me about how you were kind of weaving together all 407 00:21:40,605 --> 00:21:43,445 Speaker 1: of these different parts of your psyche at this time 408 00:21:43,485 --> 00:21:46,925 Speaker 1: and such a young and so about sixteen seventeen. 409 00:21:46,485 --> 00:21:50,405 Speaker 3: Now, yeah, I mean I didn't kiss a boy until 410 00:21:50,405 --> 00:21:54,005 Speaker 3: I was sixteen, and then I lost my brisin after 411 00:21:54,045 --> 00:21:57,765 Speaker 3: that happened. I remember feeling when that happened, like, oh, 412 00:21:57,805 --> 00:22:00,085 Speaker 3: somebody finally likes me, because I had spent so many 413 00:22:00,165 --> 00:22:03,885 Speaker 3: years feeling so disgusting and weird and deformed because of 414 00:22:03,885 --> 00:22:07,165 Speaker 3: my back, and so anytime a boy gave me any 415 00:22:07,245 --> 00:22:09,525 Speaker 3: sort of attention, I mean, it made me feel top 416 00:22:09,565 --> 00:22:12,965 Speaker 3: of the world. I felt special, I felt pretty, And 417 00:22:13,045 --> 00:22:15,965 Speaker 3: so when a boy kissed me finally, I was like, Okay, 418 00:22:16,165 --> 00:22:19,285 Speaker 3: check that off my list. But now the next thing 419 00:22:19,365 --> 00:22:22,725 Speaker 3: has to happen. And I had saved up so much knowledge. 420 00:22:22,765 --> 00:22:24,885 Speaker 3: I felt like I was just going to be this, like, 421 00:22:25,765 --> 00:22:28,525 Speaker 3: you know, this powerful woman in bed, like all the 422 00:22:28,565 --> 00:22:31,845 Speaker 3: porn stars I'd seen. I'd learned so much, and so 423 00:22:32,165 --> 00:22:35,085 Speaker 3: I feel like I was willing to give it to 424 00:22:35,125 --> 00:22:38,285 Speaker 3: anybody who was going to give me that opportunity. And 425 00:22:38,605 --> 00:22:41,125 Speaker 3: that happened. I got like a job and as a 426 00:22:41,125 --> 00:22:44,005 Speaker 3: waitress in the local restaurant, and a guy who was 427 00:22:44,845 --> 00:22:47,165 Speaker 3: twenty six. I think I was sixteen and he was 428 00:22:47,285 --> 00:22:50,605 Speaker 3: twenty six. Yeah, Like he came around in his like 429 00:22:51,045 --> 00:22:56,525 Speaker 3: fancy convertible BMW and took me out, and we took 430 00:22:56,565 --> 00:22:58,645 Speaker 3: me to motels most of the time. I don't even 431 00:22:58,725 --> 00:23:01,205 Speaker 3: really remember going on dates. Really was like go to 432 00:23:01,245 --> 00:23:04,645 Speaker 3: the motel And yeah, I very much saw it as 433 00:23:05,045 --> 00:23:08,445 Speaker 3: this check mark that I needed on a list of 434 00:23:08,485 --> 00:23:12,125 Speaker 3: things to do that obviously I was curious about, but 435 00:23:12,325 --> 00:23:14,645 Speaker 3: also I thought it would give me. It would it 436 00:23:14,685 --> 00:23:16,645 Speaker 3: would make me into a different person, It would make 437 00:23:16,725 --> 00:23:21,725 Speaker 3: me more valuable. Is being wanted like that, And of 438 00:23:21,765 --> 00:23:23,885 Speaker 3: course that feeling doesn't last long. 439 00:23:24,725 --> 00:23:27,885 Speaker 1: And it really seemed to mark a shift for you 440 00:23:27,965 --> 00:23:30,845 Speaker 1: from you know, what had up to that point been 441 00:23:30,925 --> 00:23:36,445 Speaker 1: this very cerebral kind of private shame and porn addiction 442 00:23:37,005 --> 00:23:40,765 Speaker 1: loop into what would become sex and love addiction. Right 443 00:23:40,805 --> 00:23:44,725 Speaker 1: when it when it left the virtual spaces and now 444 00:23:44,765 --> 00:23:47,085 Speaker 1: it was in the real world. You were having sex, 445 00:23:47,125 --> 00:23:50,965 Speaker 1: You were a sexual woman. How did that that kind 446 00:23:51,005 --> 00:23:53,285 Speaker 1: of jump across to the other side of the road 447 00:23:54,165 --> 00:23:54,805 Speaker 1: change you? 448 00:23:56,365 --> 00:24:00,765 Speaker 3: So, I first want to say I never stopped watching porn, 449 00:24:00,805 --> 00:24:05,205 Speaker 3: so that was always part of the experience, but boys 450 00:24:05,245 --> 00:24:08,365 Speaker 3: and men being wanted like that, that just became another addiction. 451 00:24:08,765 --> 00:24:11,085 Speaker 3: When you hate you as much as I hated myself, 452 00:24:11,925 --> 00:24:15,245 Speaker 3: I felt like I needed that proof that somebody liked 453 00:24:15,325 --> 00:24:20,045 Speaker 3: me and thought I was worthwhile. And a lot of 454 00:24:20,085 --> 00:24:22,325 Speaker 3: times I would look for people after that relationship, and 455 00:24:22,365 --> 00:24:24,005 Speaker 3: then I was in my twenties and steven, so I'd 456 00:24:24,045 --> 00:24:26,485 Speaker 3: meet these guys and I would treat them the way 457 00:24:26,485 --> 00:24:28,565 Speaker 3: that I looked at porn. I would try to find 458 00:24:28,605 --> 00:24:31,205 Speaker 3: somebody who would, you know, say degrading things to me, 459 00:24:31,245 --> 00:24:33,165 Speaker 3: and sometimes have to like urge them, like here's what 460 00:24:33,205 --> 00:24:35,045 Speaker 3: I want you to say to me, so I can 461 00:24:35,085 --> 00:24:38,525 Speaker 3: feel this. And it was always this feeling of like 462 00:24:39,365 --> 00:24:44,325 Speaker 3: I'm just this slot, this trashy pore that they want 463 00:24:44,365 --> 00:24:47,685 Speaker 3: to use. And I liked this feeling of being used. 464 00:24:47,725 --> 00:24:49,285 Speaker 3: I don't know if I liked the feeling. I mean, 465 00:24:49,325 --> 00:24:51,525 Speaker 3: it would give me that an adrenaline feeling, but it 466 00:24:51,565 --> 00:24:53,925 Speaker 3: was also this like that's all I thought I really 467 00:24:53,925 --> 00:24:56,165 Speaker 3: deserved was just to be used like that. So I would, 468 00:24:56,605 --> 00:24:59,205 Speaker 3: you know, sleep with guys who I knew wouldn't take 469 00:24:59,205 --> 00:25:01,045 Speaker 3: me out of dates. They would just come and have 470 00:25:01,125 --> 00:25:02,805 Speaker 3: sex with me and then leave and probably go on 471 00:25:02,885 --> 00:25:06,045 Speaker 3: dates with other girls, and that feeling of being used 472 00:25:06,325 --> 00:25:08,885 Speaker 3: felt very much like the shame and pleasure that I 473 00:25:08,885 --> 00:25:10,805 Speaker 3: would get out of the porn scenes that I watched. 474 00:25:10,845 --> 00:25:12,765 Speaker 3: It was almost like I was trying to recreate what 475 00:25:12,845 --> 00:25:15,925 Speaker 3: I had seen in my real life experiences to get 476 00:25:15,925 --> 00:25:17,445 Speaker 3: that shame and pleasure all the time. 477 00:25:18,605 --> 00:25:21,005 Speaker 1: And it's so interesting, Erica, because and I know that 478 00:25:21,045 --> 00:25:24,765 Speaker 1: this is something that you discovered, you know, on the 479 00:25:24,805 --> 00:25:27,365 Speaker 1: other side of this journey when you when you began 480 00:25:27,445 --> 00:25:31,325 Speaker 1: to heal. But going back to that, that idea of 481 00:25:31,445 --> 00:25:34,925 Speaker 1: the assumptions that people have around why women might find 482 00:25:34,925 --> 00:25:38,405 Speaker 1: themselves addicted to sex, addicted to love, addicted to porn, 483 00:25:38,765 --> 00:25:41,165 Speaker 1: and the assumption that the that there must be some 484 00:25:41,285 --> 00:25:46,005 Speaker 1: kind of abuse or some kind of core trauma that 485 00:25:46,045 --> 00:25:49,405 Speaker 1: sets you on this path. Because you you write about 486 00:25:49,445 --> 00:25:53,045 Speaker 1: coming from a very loving family. You for a while 487 00:25:54,005 --> 00:25:57,045 Speaker 1: interrogated whether or not there was something that might have 488 00:25:57,125 --> 00:25:59,725 Speaker 1: happened to you that you had just kind of tucked away, 489 00:26:00,285 --> 00:26:02,525 Speaker 1: you know, in the recesses of your mind. But that 490 00:26:02,605 --> 00:26:04,325 Speaker 1: wasn't really your experience. 491 00:26:04,005 --> 00:26:04,205 Speaker 3: Was it. 492 00:26:04,245 --> 00:26:08,845 Speaker 1: So you know, where where did this idea that all 493 00:26:08,885 --> 00:26:12,605 Speaker 1: you deserve was to be treated poorly come from? 494 00:26:13,525 --> 00:26:15,645 Speaker 3: I think it all started with that back brace and 495 00:26:15,685 --> 00:26:19,365 Speaker 3: getting bullied at school. It may seem like something so 496 00:26:19,525 --> 00:26:23,845 Speaker 3: small and insignificant compared to things like sexual assault, sexual abuse, 497 00:26:24,725 --> 00:26:27,005 Speaker 3: and I mean, so many people who have read my 498 00:26:27,005 --> 00:26:29,605 Speaker 3: stuff and heard about my story will always come at 499 00:26:29,645 --> 00:26:32,325 Speaker 3: me with like, oh, you're just a spoiled little brat. 500 00:26:32,485 --> 00:26:36,045 Speaker 3: You had everything you ever wanted as a kid, nothing 501 00:26:36,045 --> 00:26:39,045 Speaker 3: bad happened to you. All this kind of stuff. But 502 00:26:39,645 --> 00:26:43,125 Speaker 3: trauma is not a competition. So I mean, if something 503 00:26:44,165 --> 00:26:47,725 Speaker 3: hurt me and made me feel like I was less 504 00:26:47,725 --> 00:26:51,005 Speaker 3: worthy as a human being, less valuable, that's valid. I 505 00:26:51,005 --> 00:26:54,485 Speaker 3: can say that that is traumatic because it was. And 506 00:26:54,525 --> 00:26:57,485 Speaker 3: it's really important for me to push that message because 507 00:26:57,525 --> 00:27:00,965 Speaker 3: the messages I was getting was, like I said before, 508 00:27:01,045 --> 00:27:03,325 Speaker 3: it was like something terrible must have happened. You must 509 00:27:03,325 --> 00:27:06,525 Speaker 3: have had this abusive childhood, and it made me think 510 00:27:06,565 --> 00:27:09,045 Speaker 3: that maybe I did, Maybe I had had these repressed 511 00:27:09,045 --> 00:27:12,725 Speaker 3: memory because I wasn't seeing that story reflected back to me. 512 00:27:12,805 --> 00:27:15,805 Speaker 3: So it was really important for me to communicate that 513 00:27:16,005 --> 00:27:19,565 Speaker 3: addiction can come out of ordinary trauma. And my trauma 514 00:27:19,725 --> 00:27:23,565 Speaker 3: was really ordinary. Yeah. I had a loving family who 515 00:27:23,565 --> 00:27:27,125 Speaker 3: provided for me. We took vacations, I went to college, 516 00:27:27,365 --> 00:27:29,765 Speaker 3: I got a job, like all the normal things you're 517 00:27:29,765 --> 00:27:32,685 Speaker 3: supposed to do in your life. I mean I had that. 518 00:27:32,885 --> 00:27:34,565 Speaker 3: From the outside. If you were to look at my life, 519 00:27:34,565 --> 00:27:36,845 Speaker 3: it's like, well, well what happened, Like what's your problem? 520 00:27:37,565 --> 00:27:40,445 Speaker 3: But that really hurt me as a child, and I 521 00:27:40,645 --> 00:27:42,485 Speaker 3: never dealt with it at the time, and I never 522 00:27:42,605 --> 00:27:46,085 Speaker 3: learned the coping skills to deal with it effectively. And 523 00:27:46,125 --> 00:27:49,125 Speaker 3: so I carried that tool, the only thing I had, 524 00:27:49,165 --> 00:27:52,805 Speaker 3: which was born and then sex with me as my 525 00:27:52,925 --> 00:27:55,525 Speaker 3: escape route, as my tool, as my way to self soothe, 526 00:27:55,565 --> 00:27:59,245 Speaker 3: because I didn't have another tool to use. And it 527 00:27:59,285 --> 00:28:02,525 Speaker 3: would take many, many years until I was an adult 528 00:28:02,605 --> 00:28:04,845 Speaker 3: and able to go to therapy and able to talk 529 00:28:04,885 --> 00:28:07,485 Speaker 3: about what was going on and face myself and read 530 00:28:07,485 --> 00:28:09,205 Speaker 3: self help books and all the stuff you have to do, 531 00:28:09,605 --> 00:28:12,805 Speaker 3: all the work to say, okay, well that was real. 532 00:28:14,045 --> 00:28:16,365 Speaker 1: And as you say, you carried it forward. You carried 533 00:28:16,405 --> 00:28:21,005 Speaker 1: it forward into your twenties, your early adult life, and 534 00:28:22,005 --> 00:28:24,125 Speaker 1: you go to unis or to have more experiences, and 535 00:28:24,165 --> 00:28:27,205 Speaker 1: you write about the fact that drugs and alcohol intersected 536 00:28:27,245 --> 00:28:29,725 Speaker 1: with your life at this time, and that you really 537 00:28:29,765 --> 00:28:34,405 Speaker 1: had these deeply worn habitual grooves, you know, the poor 538 00:28:34,445 --> 00:28:39,205 Speaker 1: and masturbation, drinking, casual sex. Was there a particular moment 539 00:28:39,325 --> 00:28:42,245 Speaker 1: or encounter that made you stop and think, this is 540 00:28:42,285 --> 00:28:45,325 Speaker 1: an addiction, this is a problem, or I don't have 541 00:28:45,405 --> 00:28:46,165 Speaker 1: control of this. 542 00:28:48,325 --> 00:28:51,525 Speaker 3: So with something like sex addiction, it's really hard to 543 00:28:51,565 --> 00:28:54,325 Speaker 3: reach a bottom. A lot of people ask me like, 544 00:28:54,405 --> 00:28:56,805 Speaker 3: what was the changing, Like what was the moment that 545 00:28:57,125 --> 00:29:03,565 Speaker 3: you shifted and you know it started to change. I 546 00:29:03,605 --> 00:29:05,245 Speaker 3: feel like it was more like a voice in my 547 00:29:05,325 --> 00:29:07,885 Speaker 3: head that got louder and louder over time, instead of 548 00:29:07,925 --> 00:29:11,685 Speaker 3: one specific moment. I could reach into my memories and 549 00:29:11,805 --> 00:29:16,285 Speaker 3: think of several things that you know, would awaken that 550 00:29:16,365 --> 00:29:18,445 Speaker 3: voice in my head. But then I would hush it 551 00:29:18,725 --> 00:29:21,885 Speaker 3: and go and do something else destructive, like sleeping with 552 00:29:22,805 --> 00:29:25,205 Speaker 3: my high school teachers. That was one thing that I 553 00:29:25,205 --> 00:29:27,045 Speaker 3: put in the book. I mean I was graduated. It 554 00:29:27,045 --> 00:29:29,045 Speaker 3: wasn't while I was in high school, but that was 555 00:29:29,085 --> 00:29:31,325 Speaker 3: one thing that I did that I felt weird about 556 00:29:31,325 --> 00:29:34,085 Speaker 3: after when I was looking in Hawaii, Like I said, 557 00:29:34,125 --> 00:29:35,965 Speaker 3: these guys would come over and have sex with me 558 00:29:36,045 --> 00:29:38,765 Speaker 3: and then leave. Another thing that made me feel like this, 559 00:29:39,005 --> 00:29:42,245 Speaker 3: you know, something's wrong here, something's going on. And then 560 00:29:42,805 --> 00:29:45,885 Speaker 3: I think it was more ending up at the same 561 00:29:45,925 --> 00:29:49,085 Speaker 3: place in relationships over and over again, and making the 562 00:29:49,125 --> 00:29:54,325 Speaker 3: same mistakes over and over again, and thinking okay, like 563 00:29:54,365 --> 00:29:57,805 Speaker 3: feeling empty and wanting that emptiness to go away, and 564 00:29:57,885 --> 00:30:01,445 Speaker 3: knowing that it wasn't serving me anymore. And so the 565 00:30:01,485 --> 00:30:03,565 Speaker 3: shift for me happened when I was thirty. So I 566 00:30:03,685 --> 00:30:06,605 Speaker 3: was like, I saw the decade ahead of me and thought, Okay, 567 00:30:06,645 --> 00:30:08,725 Speaker 3: I'm going to make this decade better than the last. 568 00:30:08,805 --> 00:30:12,405 Speaker 3: What needs to change? And I just feel like, sometimes 569 00:30:12,445 --> 00:30:15,005 Speaker 3: you have to be at that point in your life 570 00:30:15,005 --> 00:30:17,365 Speaker 3: where you're ready, And I was ready at that point, 571 00:30:17,525 --> 00:30:19,765 Speaker 3: or I decided to be ready to like, Okay, let 572 00:30:20,325 --> 00:30:22,565 Speaker 3: let's do some reflection and figure out what's going on. 573 00:30:22,925 --> 00:30:25,525 Speaker 3: And in order to do that, it took you know, 574 00:30:25,565 --> 00:30:28,325 Speaker 3: all the work, all the therapy and sex and love 575 00:30:28,325 --> 00:30:30,965 Speaker 3: addicts anonymous meetings where I was able to finally face 576 00:30:31,005 --> 00:30:32,365 Speaker 3: those things. 577 00:30:33,125 --> 00:30:36,605 Speaker 1: Before you got there, you write really eloquently about this 578 00:30:36,725 --> 00:30:41,525 Speaker 1: kind of being torn between these two realities, which is 579 00:30:41,565 --> 00:30:45,565 Speaker 1: that sometimes your approach to sex and sexuality and porn, 580 00:30:46,805 --> 00:30:50,685 Speaker 1: your relationship to those things, could feel very liberating. Whether 581 00:30:50,725 --> 00:30:53,285 Speaker 1: there were moments that felt like you were in control 582 00:30:53,405 --> 00:30:56,045 Speaker 1: or that you were making a choice and that kind 583 00:30:56,085 --> 00:30:59,685 Speaker 1: of oscillating between that idea of this like currency as 584 00:30:59,725 --> 00:31:01,765 Speaker 1: like I'm the cool girl, I'm cool with sex, I'm 585 00:31:01,765 --> 00:31:04,805 Speaker 1: cool with porn, you know, to those moments of going, oh, 586 00:31:04,845 --> 00:31:07,525 Speaker 1: actually this is harming me and just swinging between those 587 00:31:07,565 --> 00:31:13,885 Speaker 1: two realities or those two experiences. Tell me how these 588 00:31:13,885 --> 00:31:16,245 Speaker 1: addictions showed up in your life as something that you 589 00:31:16,325 --> 00:31:18,885 Speaker 1: had to manage and integrate into your day to day. 590 00:31:18,925 --> 00:31:21,245 Speaker 1: You were in UNI, as you say, you were working, 591 00:31:21,285 --> 00:31:24,045 Speaker 1: you were studying. What did it feel like to have 592 00:31:24,125 --> 00:31:27,205 Speaker 1: to kind of manage these addictions or to feed these 593 00:31:27,245 --> 00:31:30,845 Speaker 1: addictions whilst you were also living your life and reaching 594 00:31:30,885 --> 00:31:31,765 Speaker 1: other goals. 595 00:31:32,205 --> 00:31:34,685 Speaker 3: Well, when I was in a relationship, it was very 596 00:31:34,725 --> 00:31:37,045 Speaker 3: easy to feed those addictions because I had somebody who 597 00:31:37,125 --> 00:31:38,965 Speaker 3: was there that I could have sex with all the time. 598 00:31:39,045 --> 00:31:41,205 Speaker 3: And it was even better if it was somebody who 599 00:31:41,245 --> 00:31:43,325 Speaker 3: wanted to watch porn with me, because we could do both. 600 00:31:43,405 --> 00:31:45,725 Speaker 3: You two of my favorite things that would take me 601 00:31:46,005 --> 00:31:47,525 Speaker 3: like put me back into my body and get me 602 00:31:47,565 --> 00:31:51,725 Speaker 3: out of my head. When I was single and trying 603 00:31:51,765 --> 00:31:54,885 Speaker 3: to feed those addictions, it was incredibly isolating. I mean 604 00:31:55,045 --> 00:31:59,645 Speaker 3: I spent a lot of time pushing people away so 605 00:31:59,685 --> 00:32:02,885 Speaker 3: that I could spend more time at home feeding the addictions. 606 00:32:02,965 --> 00:32:05,765 Speaker 3: I mean, watching porn can take up the whole day 607 00:32:05,845 --> 00:32:07,645 Speaker 3: if you're trying to find the perfect clip and then 608 00:32:07,685 --> 00:32:09,325 Speaker 3: you found it and then you try to top it 609 00:32:09,405 --> 00:32:12,045 Speaker 3: with another clip, or if you're pursuing somebody to have 610 00:32:12,165 --> 00:32:15,885 Speaker 3: sex with, and you know, I would have this whole 611 00:32:15,965 --> 00:32:20,085 Speaker 3: ritual of like grooming my body, going out, flirting with 612 00:32:20,125 --> 00:32:24,165 Speaker 3: someone just the right way, and then you know, having 613 00:32:24,165 --> 00:32:28,405 Speaker 3: sex with them. It was all part of this, Like, yeah, 614 00:32:28,405 --> 00:32:30,325 Speaker 3: it was all just this way to try and escape, 615 00:32:30,525 --> 00:32:33,645 Speaker 3: and I feel like I managed it by sort of 616 00:32:33,645 --> 00:32:37,165 Speaker 3: pushing everything else away. I would often neglect schoolwork, I 617 00:32:37,205 --> 00:32:39,805 Speaker 3: would neglect my job. I feel like I could have, 618 00:32:40,125 --> 00:32:42,565 Speaker 3: you know, written a lot more than I did. And 619 00:32:42,805 --> 00:32:45,805 Speaker 3: definitely friendships. I think friendships is what suffered the most. 620 00:32:45,885 --> 00:32:49,725 Speaker 3: I had a lot of difficulty making platonic friends because 621 00:32:49,725 --> 00:32:51,885 Speaker 3: it was much easier to flirt with somebody then I 622 00:32:51,925 --> 00:32:55,045 Speaker 3: have a conversation, a friendly conversation, much easier to have 623 00:32:55,085 --> 00:32:59,925 Speaker 3: sex with someone than actually become emotionally intimate. Those things 624 00:32:59,965 --> 00:33:02,365 Speaker 3: were just so much easier. And then yeah, I would 625 00:33:02,405 --> 00:33:04,005 Speaker 3: play it off like I'm just a cool girl. I'm 626 00:33:04,045 --> 00:33:05,965 Speaker 3: a cool girl who watches porn. I'm a cool girl 627 00:33:06,005 --> 00:33:07,725 Speaker 3: who lets you come and have sex with me and 628 00:33:07,805 --> 00:33:09,445 Speaker 3: leave like I'm not going to make a big deal. Well, 629 00:33:10,085 --> 00:33:14,045 Speaker 3: I liked that idea of not being this dramatic, clingy girl, 630 00:33:14,285 --> 00:33:17,045 Speaker 3: and I would be kind of stuck between those feelings 631 00:33:17,045 --> 00:33:19,925 Speaker 3: of like wanting them to stay so that I could feel, 632 00:33:20,405 --> 00:33:22,205 Speaker 3: you know, wanted for a little bit longer, but then 633 00:33:22,245 --> 00:33:24,485 Speaker 3: also wanting them to leave because if they stayed, then 634 00:33:24,565 --> 00:33:26,925 Speaker 3: they were going to see that I was actually this disgusting, 635 00:33:26,965 --> 00:33:31,565 Speaker 3: broken person and not knowing how to find that midpoint 636 00:33:31,965 --> 00:33:34,965 Speaker 3: and be way too scared of any sort of intimacy. 637 00:33:36,205 --> 00:33:39,645 Speaker 1: You talk about how you could lose a day looking 638 00:33:39,685 --> 00:33:42,005 Speaker 1: for that perfect clip. You know, it's very interesting, isn't 639 00:33:42,045 --> 00:33:45,005 Speaker 1: it How any addiction follows these patterns, right, It's like 640 00:33:45,045 --> 00:33:47,765 Speaker 1: a drug addict could spend a day trying to get 641 00:33:47,765 --> 00:33:50,925 Speaker 1: that hit or trying to find that their source. What 642 00:33:51,205 --> 00:33:53,365 Speaker 1: was a perfect clip for you at that time? 643 00:33:54,125 --> 00:33:57,205 Speaker 3: Oh god, it was changing all the time because mine 644 00:33:57,285 --> 00:33:59,925 Speaker 3: is that part of it in a way, like yeah, 645 00:34:00,925 --> 00:34:02,645 Speaker 3: only work once, you know, like. 646 00:34:02,685 --> 00:34:05,205 Speaker 1: Is it that thing of like Okay, tell me how 647 00:34:05,205 --> 00:34:06,125 Speaker 1: that really worked for you? 648 00:34:06,285 --> 00:34:10,605 Speaker 3: I mean well sometimes, yeah, sometimes only work once sometimes 649 00:34:10,685 --> 00:34:13,125 Speaker 3: I mean I really liked it, and we'll come back 650 00:34:13,125 --> 00:34:16,285 Speaker 3: to it. But yeah, that's absolutely part of it. Is 651 00:34:16,725 --> 00:34:19,325 Speaker 3: just like a you know, a drug addict will need 652 00:34:19,325 --> 00:34:22,325 Speaker 3: a little bit more in order to you know, get 653 00:34:22,365 --> 00:34:25,205 Speaker 3: that high, and an alcoholic and they start to hold 654 00:34:25,245 --> 00:34:26,765 Speaker 3: her liquor and they need a little more to get 655 00:34:26,765 --> 00:34:28,845 Speaker 3: the buzz. I mean, it's the same thing. So I 656 00:34:28,845 --> 00:34:31,085 Speaker 3: would watch more and more, but then also, yeah, try 657 00:34:31,125 --> 00:34:33,925 Speaker 3: to top whatever I had watched with something that was 658 00:34:34,005 --> 00:34:37,365 Speaker 3: just a little more degrading, a little more sicker, And 659 00:34:37,445 --> 00:34:40,565 Speaker 3: I really found those fetishes. I don't want to say 660 00:34:40,725 --> 00:34:44,205 Speaker 3: the categories change from the very beginning when it was 661 00:34:44,245 --> 00:34:47,925 Speaker 3: all just like, oh, cheerleaders with their teachers or something, 662 00:34:47,965 --> 00:34:49,605 Speaker 3: which is like, oh, I was a teenager. So it 663 00:34:49,645 --> 00:34:53,445 Speaker 3: was like, you know, relating cliche porn in a way. Yeah, yeah, 664 00:34:54,085 --> 00:34:56,725 Speaker 3: like vanilla porn. And then all of a sudden, it 665 00:34:56,845 --> 00:35:00,405 Speaker 3: was like a hundred guys, you know, taking some woman 666 00:35:00,565 --> 00:35:04,485 Speaker 3: into a warehouse and doing wells of degrading things to her. 667 00:35:05,045 --> 00:35:08,565 Speaker 3: And it's scary because once you get to that point, 668 00:35:08,645 --> 00:35:13,125 Speaker 3: I mean, it becomes very limited what you find like stimulating. 669 00:35:13,405 --> 00:35:15,965 Speaker 3: After a while, I would just feel numb, numb, numb 670 00:35:16,085 --> 00:35:18,285 Speaker 3: until I found that one that gave me that feeling, 671 00:35:18,365 --> 00:35:21,165 Speaker 3: and then feel sickened with myself afterward, and then yeah, 672 00:35:21,165 --> 00:35:22,925 Speaker 3: I have to find something sick aroun until I was 673 00:35:22,965 --> 00:35:27,005 Speaker 3: exhausted or you know, had to be somewhere for work 674 00:35:27,125 --> 00:35:30,525 Speaker 3: or something, or I was sore. I would often like 675 00:35:30,645 --> 00:35:33,885 Speaker 3: end up physically sore because I had masturbated so much. 676 00:35:36,165 --> 00:35:40,125 Speaker 1: So you're getting older, You're accumulating more of these traumatic 677 00:35:40,205 --> 00:35:43,405 Speaker 1: experiences like you just described. It's getting harder and harder 678 00:35:43,445 --> 00:35:47,165 Speaker 1: for you to, I suppose tell yourself that you have 679 00:35:47,285 --> 00:35:50,725 Speaker 1: control over these elements of your life. Tell me about 680 00:35:50,765 --> 00:35:52,645 Speaker 1: Elliott and that relationship. 681 00:35:53,325 --> 00:35:56,325 Speaker 3: So Elliott was somebody I met when I was living 682 00:35:56,405 --> 00:36:01,525 Speaker 3: in Hawaii. He lived in New York, and at that 683 00:36:01,645 --> 00:36:05,325 Speaker 3: time in Hawaii, I was feeling I was just like 684 00:36:05,525 --> 00:36:07,485 Speaker 3: seeing these guys like on a merry go round, Like 685 00:36:07,525 --> 00:36:10,565 Speaker 3: I would just like have these guys on a rotation 686 00:36:11,125 --> 00:36:13,565 Speaker 3: of like guys who would make me feel really used, 687 00:36:14,205 --> 00:36:15,805 Speaker 3: and in a way I was using them as well, 688 00:36:15,805 --> 00:36:18,405 Speaker 3: but I wouldn't have admitted it then. And then I 689 00:36:18,445 --> 00:36:20,925 Speaker 3: saw Elliot as a ticket out of that. I thought, oh, 690 00:36:21,005 --> 00:36:22,885 Speaker 3: this like in today. He was a lot older than me, 691 00:36:22,925 --> 00:36:26,325 Speaker 3: as well, he's like thirteen years older, had this important job, 692 00:36:26,685 --> 00:36:28,885 Speaker 3: lived in a really cool city very far away from 693 00:36:28,925 --> 00:36:31,245 Speaker 3: where I was, so I saw him as a ticket 694 00:36:31,325 --> 00:36:34,805 Speaker 3: out of that and thinking like a clean slate, I 695 00:36:34,845 --> 00:36:36,325 Speaker 3: went to New York with him, and then I ended 696 00:36:36,405 --> 00:36:40,805 Speaker 3: up feeling really intimidated and all those feelings of like 697 00:36:40,885 --> 00:36:45,325 Speaker 3: insecurity and low self esteem just came rushing back. I 698 00:36:45,365 --> 00:36:49,045 Speaker 3: didn't have a job because I moved, and yeah, just 699 00:36:49,085 --> 00:36:53,365 Speaker 3: feeling really intimidated and threatened. And then he asked me 700 00:36:53,405 --> 00:36:55,485 Speaker 3: to marry him, and I remember thinking like, oh god, 701 00:36:55,525 --> 00:36:57,765 Speaker 3: why is he into me? Like I have no idea 702 00:36:57,805 --> 00:37:00,525 Speaker 3: he's this important man, and thinking that the only thing 703 00:37:00,565 --> 00:37:02,645 Speaker 3: I had to offer him was sex. So I better 704 00:37:02,685 --> 00:37:06,685 Speaker 3: at least, you know, be awesome in bed. And he 705 00:37:06,765 --> 00:37:09,805 Speaker 3: was recovering alcoholic and so he was able to see 706 00:37:10,005 --> 00:37:12,845 Speaker 3: early on, I think, And it just got worse over 707 00:37:12,885 --> 00:37:16,285 Speaker 3: time that I was using sex as a coping tool 708 00:37:16,445 --> 00:37:18,765 Speaker 3: for all of those feelings of insecurity. I didn't know 709 00:37:18,765 --> 00:37:20,005 Speaker 3: how else to connect with him. 710 00:37:20,445 --> 00:37:23,045 Speaker 1: He was the first parson to suggest to you that 711 00:37:23,125 --> 00:37:25,765 Speaker 1: you were a sex addict. To use that language. 712 00:37:26,125 --> 00:37:29,205 Speaker 3: He did, Yes, he said it. He said it to me. 713 00:37:29,405 --> 00:37:33,125 Speaker 3: But he also said it in not a very kind way. 714 00:37:33,165 --> 00:37:35,085 Speaker 3: It was like, during a fight while he was out 715 00:37:35,125 --> 00:37:37,645 Speaker 3: the door, you're a sex addict, you know, do something 716 00:37:37,685 --> 00:37:41,525 Speaker 3: about it. So we broke up shortly after that because 717 00:37:41,525 --> 00:37:43,605 Speaker 3: it was much easier to break up than to actually 718 00:37:44,125 --> 00:37:46,325 Speaker 3: face the idea that I might be a sex addict. 719 00:37:46,885 --> 00:37:48,805 Speaker 3: But that stuck with me for a long time. Was like, 720 00:37:48,885 --> 00:37:51,365 Speaker 3: oh maybe I am. You know, I'd always felt like 721 00:37:51,405 --> 00:37:54,765 Speaker 3: I had an issue, you know, with sex, and felt 722 00:37:54,845 --> 00:37:57,165 Speaker 3: all that shame and felt bad about it. But to 723 00:37:57,245 --> 00:38:00,685 Speaker 3: have an actual name for it and to have somebody 724 00:38:00,765 --> 00:38:03,805 Speaker 3: who had his own addiction call it out and me, 725 00:38:04,125 --> 00:38:07,045 Speaker 3: it was very confronting. But I wasn't ready to face 726 00:38:07,085 --> 00:38:09,725 Speaker 3: it just then, so it was it was still be 727 00:38:09,845 --> 00:38:13,845 Speaker 3: several years before I was ready to actually go into 728 00:38:13,885 --> 00:38:16,365 Speaker 3: a meeting and say to other people, Hey, I think 729 00:38:16,405 --> 00:38:17,525 Speaker 3: I might be a sex addict. 730 00:38:23,485 --> 00:38:26,485 Speaker 1: When we come back the low point that finally drove 731 00:38:26,645 --> 00:38:29,405 Speaker 1: Erica to get the help she needed, and what recovery 732 00:38:29,405 --> 00:38:37,445 Speaker 1: looks like today, stay with us. Around this time. You 733 00:38:37,485 --> 00:38:41,245 Speaker 1: write about, you know, exposing yourself to a lot of 734 00:38:41,725 --> 00:38:45,645 Speaker 1: healing modalities, getting into yoga, getting into the teachings of 735 00:38:45,725 --> 00:38:49,645 Speaker 1: certain people that offered you something to help you see 736 00:38:49,685 --> 00:38:52,565 Speaker 1: yourself and see your life in a different way. But 737 00:38:52,605 --> 00:38:55,285 Speaker 1: that didn't mean that that was that you stopped these 738 00:38:55,325 --> 00:38:58,245 Speaker 1: behaviors that day, right, that you got better the first 739 00:38:58,325 --> 00:38:59,365 Speaker 1: day you went to yoga. 740 00:38:59,605 --> 00:38:59,805 Speaker 2: Right. 741 00:39:00,365 --> 00:39:03,485 Speaker 1: It was years of kind of integrating these things that 742 00:39:03,525 --> 00:39:05,925 Speaker 1: you were. You know, you were still exposing yourself to 743 00:39:06,085 --> 00:39:09,085 Speaker 1: these deeply worn kind of neural pathways that you'd created 744 00:39:09,085 --> 00:39:14,205 Speaker 1: from twelve years old, whilst you know, exploring a healthier, 745 00:39:14,325 --> 00:39:16,485 Speaker 1: newer way to live, different way to live. But it 746 00:39:16,485 --> 00:39:18,805 Speaker 1: would take a long time for that new thing to 747 00:39:19,005 --> 00:39:20,925 Speaker 1: be stronger than the old thing, didn't it. 748 00:39:21,045 --> 00:39:23,285 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I mean sex. When you were addicted to 749 00:39:23,325 --> 00:39:26,085 Speaker 3: something like sex, it's not something that you could just stop. 750 00:39:26,125 --> 00:39:29,245 Speaker 3: I mean, I guess some people will go abstinate, But 751 00:39:29,365 --> 00:39:31,365 Speaker 3: it was something I still very much wanted to do 752 00:39:31,405 --> 00:39:33,925 Speaker 3: and wanted to integrate into my life in a healthy way. 753 00:39:34,885 --> 00:39:37,165 Speaker 3: So I had to find a way to you know, 754 00:39:37,325 --> 00:39:40,645 Speaker 3: do both things. And it takes a lot of experimentation, 755 00:39:40,845 --> 00:39:44,165 Speaker 3: exploration to find a way to have balance with both 756 00:39:44,245 --> 00:39:46,885 Speaker 3: those things. And I often tell people who ask me, like, 757 00:39:46,885 --> 00:39:48,325 Speaker 3: what should I do? I think I might be a 758 00:39:48,445 --> 00:39:52,165 Speaker 3: sex addict. Is like, okay, meetings are a great place 759 00:39:52,205 --> 00:39:54,205 Speaker 3: to start because you get to see other people who 760 00:39:54,285 --> 00:39:57,285 Speaker 3: are like you and say those things allowed that you 761 00:39:57,325 --> 00:39:59,285 Speaker 3: may not have said to anybody else. But you don't 762 00:39:59,285 --> 00:40:01,965 Speaker 3: have to stop at meetings like if that's not your thing, 763 00:40:02,205 --> 00:40:04,685 Speaker 3: like be willing to try lots of other things. And 764 00:40:04,765 --> 00:40:08,045 Speaker 3: like the thing about yoga, it sounds very cheesy, I'm 765 00:40:08,085 --> 00:40:10,165 Speaker 3: sure like a yoga sa me, Like I know a 766 00:40:10,165 --> 00:40:12,365 Speaker 3: lot of maximums are like in my book that way, 767 00:40:12,445 --> 00:40:14,325 Speaker 3: like e Price you ready pray love and moved to 768 00:40:14,365 --> 00:40:16,925 Speaker 3: bali and did yoga, and it's just like it really 769 00:40:16,965 --> 00:40:20,325 Speaker 3: minimizes the fact that doing something like yoga, I also 770 00:40:20,365 --> 00:40:23,845 Speaker 3: did kickboxing, Like those things put me in my body 771 00:40:24,205 --> 00:40:26,165 Speaker 3: and gave me something else to do with my body, 772 00:40:26,245 --> 00:40:29,965 Speaker 3: gave me another outlet and that was a nice replacement 773 00:40:30,205 --> 00:40:32,685 Speaker 3: for you know, instead of going to porn, I can 774 00:40:32,765 --> 00:40:35,485 Speaker 3: go and stretch out in yoga, and that just that's 775 00:40:35,565 --> 00:40:38,125 Speaker 3: how you know, a lot of times, how you can 776 00:40:38,205 --> 00:40:42,805 Speaker 3: replace addictive behavior is our how to stop addictive behaviors 777 00:40:42,805 --> 00:40:45,445 Speaker 3: by replacing it with something healthier. And so I think 778 00:40:45,485 --> 00:40:47,125 Speaker 3: you have to try a lot of things to find 779 00:40:47,165 --> 00:40:51,005 Speaker 3: what combination works for you. And obviously therapy and writing 780 00:40:51,045 --> 00:40:52,965 Speaker 3: about it was a big thing for me, and then 781 00:40:53,365 --> 00:40:55,525 Speaker 3: not just writing about it, but writing about it and 782 00:40:55,525 --> 00:40:58,005 Speaker 3: then sending it out into the world, publishing it and 783 00:40:58,165 --> 00:41:01,605 Speaker 3: exposing myself that way. Those were all like practices for 784 00:41:01,725 --> 00:41:04,125 Speaker 3: me to just get real about what was going on, 785 00:41:04,205 --> 00:41:06,245 Speaker 3: to say to other people, what's going on. And once 786 00:41:06,285 --> 00:41:09,005 Speaker 3: you voice these things, and they have a little less 787 00:41:09,045 --> 00:41:11,605 Speaker 3: power over you because now they're out in the open. 788 00:41:11,685 --> 00:41:14,885 Speaker 3: And the worst thing for me seemed like being found out, 789 00:41:14,925 --> 00:41:16,925 Speaker 3: like I didn't want anybody to find out was doing that. 790 00:41:16,965 --> 00:41:18,365 Speaker 3: And then once I put it out there and made 791 00:41:18,405 --> 00:41:23,285 Speaker 3: the choice, then you know that fear was gone. You 792 00:41:23,325 --> 00:41:23,525 Speaker 3: know it. 793 00:41:23,685 --> 00:41:26,285 Speaker 1: But there was a gap for you, wasn't there between 794 00:41:27,365 --> 00:41:30,645 Speaker 1: kind of going right, Okay, I'm probably an addict. These 795 00:41:30,685 --> 00:41:33,205 Speaker 1: things are a problem. They're not really serving me in 796 00:41:33,285 --> 00:41:37,045 Speaker 1: my life. Before you were ready to go to meetings, 797 00:41:37,485 --> 00:41:43,725 Speaker 1: tell me about the low point, the point where you said, okay, 798 00:41:44,045 --> 00:41:44,885 Speaker 1: it's now or never. 799 00:41:46,285 --> 00:41:48,805 Speaker 3: When I was living in New York, after it broke 800 00:41:48,845 --> 00:41:50,365 Speaker 3: off with the guy I was engaged too, I got 801 00:41:50,405 --> 00:41:52,405 Speaker 3: into another relationship right away, and that was also a 802 00:41:52,405 --> 00:41:55,045 Speaker 3: pattern of mine. It was just like relationship to relationship, 803 00:41:55,485 --> 00:41:58,365 Speaker 3: and then between those relationships lots of casual sex and 804 00:41:58,405 --> 00:42:01,165 Speaker 3: then pouring that whole time. Those are my little patterns. 805 00:42:01,165 --> 00:42:04,285 Speaker 3: And so I jumped into another relationship right away, and 806 00:42:04,325 --> 00:42:08,485 Speaker 3: this person was very present, very loving, very kind, and 807 00:42:08,565 --> 00:42:10,805 Speaker 3: I didn't know how to do with that kind of relationship. 808 00:42:10,845 --> 00:42:13,405 Speaker 3: I really, I mean, we spent three years together and 809 00:42:13,485 --> 00:42:15,445 Speaker 3: I felt like this might be the person I'm going 810 00:42:15,525 --> 00:42:18,165 Speaker 3: to marry. But anytime I felt like we were getting 811 00:42:18,205 --> 00:42:21,925 Speaker 3: a little bit too close or he'd find out something 812 00:42:21,965 --> 00:42:24,005 Speaker 3: new about me, then I'd push him away. And so 813 00:42:24,045 --> 00:42:26,125 Speaker 3: then I ended up destroying that relationship, as I had 814 00:42:26,165 --> 00:42:31,045 Speaker 3: done so many times before with relationships. And my thirtieth 815 00:42:31,125 --> 00:42:33,805 Speaker 3: birthday was coming up, and I remember being in this 816 00:42:33,885 --> 00:42:36,605 Speaker 3: place of just feeling like, oh, here we are again, 817 00:42:36,725 --> 00:42:40,245 Speaker 3: same place I ruined another relationship, and I could see 818 00:42:40,245 --> 00:42:41,685 Speaker 3: how it was all going to play out. You know, 819 00:42:41,725 --> 00:42:44,085 Speaker 3: I'm going to just go back to sleeping with guys 820 00:42:44,085 --> 00:42:46,525 Speaker 3: who just make me feel used. I'll probably jump into 821 00:42:46,525 --> 00:42:50,885 Speaker 3: another relationship and it just seems so exhausting and pointless 822 00:42:51,325 --> 00:42:54,325 Speaker 3: that I knew something had to change. And I know 823 00:42:54,405 --> 00:42:57,325 Speaker 3: that's not really like a low point, like I said, 824 00:42:57,365 --> 00:42:59,925 Speaker 3: with sex addiction, it's hard to find a bottom. It 825 00:43:00,005 --> 00:43:03,645 Speaker 3: was more like, Okay, enough's enough. I want something better 826 00:43:03,645 --> 00:43:04,445 Speaker 3: for my life. 827 00:43:04,525 --> 00:43:06,125 Speaker 1: I think that makes a lot of sense. You know, 828 00:43:06,245 --> 00:43:11,605 Speaker 1: sometimes a low point really is tigue at the idea 829 00:43:12,885 --> 00:43:15,845 Speaker 1: of knowing what's coming is just more of the same. 830 00:43:16,005 --> 00:43:19,045 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, And you know, I think it is possible 831 00:43:19,165 --> 00:43:21,405 Speaker 3: to have people, you know, they spend a lot of 832 00:43:21,405 --> 00:43:24,005 Speaker 3: money on prostitutes or you know, they can they can 833 00:43:24,085 --> 00:43:26,445 Speaker 3: go into financial ruin. They could you know, cheat on 834 00:43:26,485 --> 00:43:31,245 Speaker 3: their partner and ruin marriages and lose their job and 835 00:43:31,325 --> 00:43:33,325 Speaker 3: they're you know, using corn it work. I mean, there's 836 00:43:33,325 --> 00:43:36,485 Speaker 3: all sorts of really really huge things that can happen. 837 00:43:37,005 --> 00:43:39,525 Speaker 3: But for me, yeah, I mean, it's that ordinary, going 838 00:43:39,525 --> 00:43:42,845 Speaker 3: back to the ordinary trauma. It was pretty much a 839 00:43:42,925 --> 00:43:45,765 Speaker 3: boring story of just being on this like hamster wheel 840 00:43:45,925 --> 00:43:49,765 Speaker 3: and wanting to get off because that's not as dramatic, 841 00:43:50,165 --> 00:43:53,005 Speaker 3: but it's still real and valid, Like my life is 842 00:43:53,045 --> 00:43:56,005 Speaker 3: still a waste, like slipping through my fingers. I'm still 843 00:43:56,005 --> 00:43:59,845 Speaker 3: not making real connections with people. I'm living this very dull, sad, 844 00:44:00,125 --> 00:44:05,325 Speaker 3: lonely life. And I wanted something different, and so thirty 845 00:44:05,445 --> 00:44:07,525 Speaker 3: just seemed like the great place to do it. And 846 00:44:07,565 --> 00:44:10,365 Speaker 3: so I went to Bali. Yes, I did eat, pray, love. 847 00:44:10,285 --> 00:44:12,925 Speaker 1: And so that you ate, prayed and loved. 848 00:44:13,725 --> 00:44:16,765 Speaker 3: Yes, I did. Yeah, I read you pay love, and 849 00:44:16,805 --> 00:44:19,125 Speaker 3: I said, I want to do that. And so I 850 00:44:19,245 --> 00:44:21,125 Speaker 3: was working remotely at the time so I could take 851 00:44:21,125 --> 00:44:24,725 Speaker 3: my job and went to bali and was committed to 852 00:44:24,845 --> 00:44:27,365 Speaker 3: not being in a relationship. I'm just gonna do yoga 853 00:44:27,605 --> 00:44:32,285 Speaker 3: like Elizabeth Gilbert and Rye and be healthy. And for 854 00:44:32,325 --> 00:44:34,885 Speaker 3: about a month that is what I did. I was like, 855 00:44:35,485 --> 00:44:38,725 Speaker 3: you know, did lots of meditation, reiki and all sorts 856 00:44:38,765 --> 00:44:42,685 Speaker 3: of really cool New age things. But then I met 857 00:44:43,365 --> 00:44:45,565 Speaker 3: I met a guy who was there who was also 858 00:44:45,645 --> 00:44:49,285 Speaker 3: dealing with addiction, and there for the very same reasons. 859 00:44:49,445 --> 00:44:52,045 Speaker 3: He was there trying to get clean, trying to change 860 00:44:52,045 --> 00:44:54,525 Speaker 3: his life. So we were both sort of in this 861 00:44:54,645 --> 00:44:58,205 Speaker 3: same sort of space of wanting to change and being 862 00:44:58,245 --> 00:45:01,045 Speaker 3: ready for change. And that person is now my husband. 863 00:45:01,205 --> 00:45:05,325 Speaker 3: So we connected right away, and I made the choice 864 00:45:05,365 --> 00:45:08,645 Speaker 3: to just be honest and authentic from the start, and 865 00:45:08,805 --> 00:45:10,925 Speaker 3: that took a lot lot of different things along the way, 866 00:45:11,005 --> 00:45:12,805 Speaker 3: which one of them was admitting that I was a 867 00:45:12,845 --> 00:45:14,965 Speaker 3: sex addict. And he's the first person that I told 868 00:45:15,565 --> 00:45:17,845 Speaker 3: that I thought I might be a sex addict. Toe 869 00:45:18,245 --> 00:45:21,325 Speaker 3: instead of running away, he wanted in and know more, 870 00:45:21,925 --> 00:45:24,405 Speaker 3: and that just seems so shocking, like, oh, wait, you 871 00:45:24,445 --> 00:45:26,685 Speaker 3: don't want to run away from me, I haven't scared you. 872 00:45:26,965 --> 00:45:29,285 Speaker 3: I was like, no, it actually brought us closer together. 873 00:45:29,805 --> 00:45:32,085 Speaker 3: And I loved the way that that felt, and it 874 00:45:32,125 --> 00:45:34,165 Speaker 3: really felt like, Okay, this is something I need to 875 00:45:34,205 --> 00:45:38,365 Speaker 3: be doing. This feels right. I feel this sense of relief. 876 00:45:38,925 --> 00:45:42,285 Speaker 3: And so I kept finding different ways to expose myself 877 00:45:42,445 --> 00:45:46,085 Speaker 3: and keep saying that aloud. And saying it aloud helped 878 00:45:46,085 --> 00:45:49,605 Speaker 3: me get a grasp on how it started, how it 879 00:45:49,645 --> 00:45:52,005 Speaker 3: got worse, just have that sort of reflection that I 880 00:45:52,085 --> 00:45:54,645 Speaker 3: needed in order to know what to do next. 881 00:45:55,205 --> 00:45:58,445 Speaker 1: In diluting that shame, right, Like, every time you tell 882 00:45:58,485 --> 00:46:02,925 Speaker 1: your story, did it feel like shame and its ability 883 00:46:02,965 --> 00:46:04,925 Speaker 1: to kind of sink its claws into you got a 884 00:46:04,965 --> 00:46:06,245 Speaker 1: little less strong? 885 00:46:07,045 --> 00:46:10,325 Speaker 3: Yeah, sharing my story and then also just researching it, 886 00:46:10,525 --> 00:46:13,245 Speaker 3: just finding out and like going to meetings and hearing 887 00:46:13,285 --> 00:46:14,605 Speaker 3: other people talk about it. 888 00:46:15,165 --> 00:46:19,965 Speaker 1: And so what does sex and Love Addiction Anonymous teach 889 00:46:20,245 --> 00:46:24,765 Speaker 1: as a recovery process and what does your recovery look like? 890 00:46:26,245 --> 00:46:29,645 Speaker 3: So at the very beginning of my recovery, I thought 891 00:46:29,685 --> 00:46:32,405 Speaker 3: it had to look a certain way. I thought that okay, 892 00:46:32,525 --> 00:46:37,805 Speaker 3: recovery means monogamy. Recovery means like taking a really long break, 893 00:46:38,085 --> 00:46:40,605 Speaker 3: if not monogamy, then taking a really long break from 894 00:46:40,685 --> 00:46:46,405 Speaker 3: sex and spending time alone reflecting or monogamy. No porn ever, again, 895 00:46:47,205 --> 00:46:49,965 Speaker 3: stay away from things that might trigger me. I had 896 00:46:49,965 --> 00:46:52,605 Speaker 3: this really fixed idea of what recovery was supposed to 897 00:46:52,685 --> 00:46:55,885 Speaker 3: look like, and the thing is, it looks different for everyone. 898 00:46:56,245 --> 00:46:59,405 Speaker 3: And after a bit of time, I realized that that 899 00:47:00,285 --> 00:47:02,965 Speaker 3: wasn't really serving me, that I didn't feel as authentic, 900 00:47:03,405 --> 00:47:06,205 Speaker 3: and I started to ask those big questions of you know, 901 00:47:06,725 --> 00:47:11,365 Speaker 3: had I felt okay with exploring my sexuality as that 902 00:47:11,405 --> 00:47:14,245 Speaker 3: twelve year old girl. Had I not felt that shame? 903 00:47:15,245 --> 00:47:18,885 Speaker 3: Would this all be different? Would I not have had 904 00:47:18,885 --> 00:47:21,925 Speaker 3: an addiction? Would I've just been this sexually empowered person. 905 00:47:22,525 --> 00:47:24,725 Speaker 3: And I don't think having a lot of sex makes 906 00:47:24,805 --> 00:47:27,165 Speaker 3: you an addict. I don't even think watching porn every 907 00:47:27,245 --> 00:47:29,325 Speaker 3: day makes you an addict. It's how you use those 908 00:47:29,325 --> 00:47:31,485 Speaker 3: things and how you feel about those things when you 909 00:47:31,565 --> 00:47:34,205 Speaker 3: use them. To me, that's what set me down the 910 00:47:34,245 --> 00:47:37,845 Speaker 3: destructive path. And I feel like I still want to 911 00:47:37,845 --> 00:47:40,925 Speaker 3: be a sexually empowered person. My husband and I watch 912 00:47:41,005 --> 00:47:45,005 Speaker 3: porn sometimes. My husband and I we experiment with non 913 00:47:45,045 --> 00:47:50,525 Speaker 3: monogamy sometimes, and those things I don't use them as 914 00:47:50,605 --> 00:47:54,245 Speaker 3: escape routes anymore because I have healthier methods. You know. 915 00:47:54,525 --> 00:47:56,685 Speaker 3: I realized that I could still be this sexually empowered 916 00:47:56,685 --> 00:47:59,245 Speaker 3: person without blowing up my life, without line of people, 917 00:47:59,285 --> 00:48:04,205 Speaker 3: without cheating. If I'm just honest, I'm and I say, 918 00:48:04,245 --> 00:48:06,805 Speaker 3: what's really going on? I don't use an escape route. 919 00:48:07,165 --> 00:48:09,725 Speaker 1: And it sounds it's so interesting to me. Tell me 920 00:48:09,725 --> 00:48:12,445 Speaker 1: a little bit more about you know that it sounds 921 00:48:12,485 --> 00:48:18,805 Speaker 1: like the missing ingredient from addiction to an empowered, deliberate 922 00:48:19,845 --> 00:48:24,965 Speaker 1: life where you explore desire and sexuality and pleasure and 923 00:48:25,045 --> 00:48:27,365 Speaker 1: a healthy way like you're describing now with you and 924 00:48:27,405 --> 00:48:31,885 Speaker 1: your husband, is shame. The missing link? Is it that 925 00:48:33,205 --> 00:48:36,285 Speaker 1: it was it shame that turned those behaviors into addiction? 926 00:48:36,885 --> 00:48:40,445 Speaker 3: I think absolutely, yes, one hundred percent. I think my 927 00:48:40,525 --> 00:48:43,685 Speaker 3: addiction was less about sex and much more about shame. 928 00:48:45,285 --> 00:48:48,605 Speaker 3: I think if I had just felt okay with masturbating, 929 00:48:48,725 --> 00:48:50,965 Speaker 3: knew that this is what people do with my body 930 00:48:51,045 --> 00:48:53,525 Speaker 3: is mine, I could explore it however I want. You? 931 00:48:53,565 --> 00:48:55,565 Speaker 3: Which are the messages I try to give my daughter? 932 00:48:56,205 --> 00:48:59,485 Speaker 3: You know, like your body is yours, you know, take 933 00:48:59,485 --> 00:49:02,325 Speaker 3: care of it, but nothing you can do is ever 934 00:49:02,405 --> 00:49:06,485 Speaker 3: going to be bad about your body. And if I'd 935 00:49:06,485 --> 00:49:09,485 Speaker 3: gotten those messages, those you know, sex positive messages, I 936 00:49:09,525 --> 00:49:13,165 Speaker 3: don't think that I would have used sex that way. Yeah, 937 00:49:13,205 --> 00:49:16,805 Speaker 3: it would have been this this you know thing that 938 00:49:16,845 --> 00:49:18,605 Speaker 3: I might have done a long time of, like when 939 00:49:18,645 --> 00:49:20,165 Speaker 3: I was like twelve, I'd wanted to do it all 940 00:49:20,205 --> 00:49:23,885 Speaker 3: the time as a kid, just discovering it for the 941 00:49:23,885 --> 00:49:25,485 Speaker 3: first time. But I don't think I would have used 942 00:49:25,525 --> 00:49:28,685 Speaker 3: it as a crutch because so much of that was 943 00:49:28,725 --> 00:49:31,485 Speaker 3: like trying to get away from that shame. And you know, 944 00:49:31,485 --> 00:49:32,885 Speaker 3: like I said, I would have the orgasm and then 945 00:49:32,885 --> 00:49:35,165 Speaker 3: I would fill all that rushing back again and the 946 00:49:35,205 --> 00:49:37,605 Speaker 3: only way to escape it was to reach again for it. 947 00:49:37,645 --> 00:49:39,405 Speaker 3: But if I didn't have that, I don't think I 948 00:49:39,445 --> 00:49:42,085 Speaker 3: would have needed to so desperately cover it up again 949 00:49:42,565 --> 00:49:44,965 Speaker 3: with another orgasm. I think it really set off the 950 00:49:45,045 --> 00:49:46,525 Speaker 3: chain effect. 951 00:49:46,125 --> 00:49:48,165 Speaker 1: When you're not coming from a place of shame and 952 00:49:48,205 --> 00:49:51,965 Speaker 1: you're coming from a place of healed wholeness, which sounds 953 00:49:52,045 --> 00:49:53,125 Speaker 1: like is really where you are? 954 00:49:53,165 --> 00:49:53,445 Speaker 3: Now? 955 00:49:54,165 --> 00:49:55,525 Speaker 1: What kind of porn do you like now? 956 00:49:57,325 --> 00:49:59,205 Speaker 3: Well, it really depends what kind of mood I've been, 957 00:49:59,245 --> 00:50:02,365 Speaker 3: and sometimes, I mean I find the whole thing really boring, 958 00:50:02,405 --> 00:50:04,765 Speaker 3: which is a really weird place to be. Like, sometimes 959 00:50:04,765 --> 00:50:06,325 Speaker 3: I'm really in the mood. Sometimes I'll watch it with 960 00:50:06,365 --> 00:50:09,885 Speaker 3: my husband and yeah, I mean it changes all the time. 961 00:50:10,045 --> 00:50:12,125 Speaker 3: But I don't go and like search for the perfect clip. 962 00:50:12,165 --> 00:50:14,845 Speaker 3: I also just don't have time to like spend all 963 00:50:14,925 --> 00:50:16,285 Speaker 3: day looking for the perfect clip. 964 00:50:16,525 --> 00:50:19,725 Speaker 1: But motherhood makes you know, any addiction a little bit 965 00:50:19,765 --> 00:50:22,165 Speaker 1: more complicated that you don't have all that time to 966 00:50:22,165 --> 00:50:24,285 Speaker 1: to seek it out. But I suppose what I'm asking is, 967 00:50:24,725 --> 00:50:27,925 Speaker 1: you know, whilst there was a time when you were 968 00:50:27,965 --> 00:50:30,085 Speaker 1: in the in the kind of depths of your addiction 969 00:50:30,205 --> 00:50:33,205 Speaker 1: where it was a form of self harm, you would 970 00:50:33,325 --> 00:50:37,085 Speaker 1: look for those clips that validated that sense of unworthiness 971 00:50:37,085 --> 00:50:39,765 Speaker 1: in you. You would look, as you say, for clips 972 00:50:39,805 --> 00:50:43,885 Speaker 1: that kind of brutalized women to a certain degree. Yeah, 973 00:50:44,085 --> 00:50:46,405 Speaker 1: do different things, to use the title of your memoir, 974 00:50:46,605 --> 00:50:49,045 Speaker 1: get you off now in that sense? 975 00:50:51,045 --> 00:50:56,005 Speaker 3: Well, I think that those clips that I would go 976 00:50:56,085 --> 00:51:00,205 Speaker 3: for the reason that they became so extreme after a while, 977 00:51:00,685 --> 00:51:02,965 Speaker 3: so dark, like they would be taken to weird places 978 00:51:02,965 --> 00:51:05,525 Speaker 3: that don't really get me off now, is because I 979 00:51:05,605 --> 00:51:07,885 Speaker 3: was just watching so much of it, and now because 980 00:51:07,885 --> 00:51:10,565 Speaker 3: I don't watch so much of it stimulate, Like I'm 981 00:51:10,605 --> 00:51:15,805 Speaker 3: more sensitive to stimulation, so I'm not always looking for 982 00:51:15,845 --> 00:51:18,205 Speaker 3: this thing to top it and top it and give 983 00:51:18,245 --> 00:51:21,045 Speaker 3: me that feeling. And also I'm not really searching for 984 00:51:21,085 --> 00:51:24,765 Speaker 3: that adrenaline feeling anymore, this feeling of like, oh I'm bad, 985 00:51:24,805 --> 00:51:27,445 Speaker 3: I'm going to be found out, like nobody's going to 986 00:51:27,485 --> 00:51:29,325 Speaker 3: find me out, like I have a lock on my door, 987 00:51:29,405 --> 00:51:32,645 Speaker 3: you know, Like I don't. I'm not after that feeling anymore. 988 00:51:33,405 --> 00:51:36,325 Speaker 3: I'm more after just I don't know, like like it 989 00:51:36,405 --> 00:51:37,925 Speaker 3: changes all the time. It's hard to describe. 990 00:51:37,925 --> 00:51:40,205 Speaker 1: I understand there is Yeah, none of us have you know, 991 00:51:40,205 --> 00:51:41,965 Speaker 1: none none of us want the same thing every day. 992 00:51:41,965 --> 00:51:43,765 Speaker 1: That would be very boring, right, And none of us 993 00:51:43,765 --> 00:51:46,965 Speaker 1: are stimulated by the same things every day. It sounds 994 00:51:47,005 --> 00:51:52,845 Speaker 1: like your your brain's ability to have a stimulating experience 995 00:51:52,885 --> 00:51:56,845 Speaker 1: has almost been recalibrated. Yeah, so that you don't have 996 00:51:56,925 --> 00:52:00,085 Speaker 1: to keep seeking that next, bigger. 997 00:51:59,725 --> 00:52:03,005 Speaker 3: Thing, right. And I also just want to make clear too, 998 00:52:03,245 --> 00:52:07,205 Speaker 3: like those kind of like rough degradation that that isn't 999 00:52:07,285 --> 00:52:10,445 Speaker 3: necessarily like I'm not trying to like label that is bad. 1000 00:52:10,685 --> 00:52:12,485 Speaker 3: I don't want to kink, shame anyone. Some people are 1001 00:52:12,485 --> 00:52:15,525 Speaker 3: really into like BDSM and that sort of thing, and 1002 00:52:15,765 --> 00:52:18,765 Speaker 3: that's perfectly fine if that's what you're into. Doesn't mean 1003 00:52:18,765 --> 00:52:21,085 Speaker 3: that you're an addict or something's wrong with you. But 1004 00:52:21,165 --> 00:52:24,725 Speaker 3: for me, I felt like it was always just trying 1005 00:52:24,725 --> 00:52:27,765 Speaker 3: to top things with more extreme, more extreme, more extreme. 1006 00:52:28,445 --> 00:52:31,645 Speaker 3: And now I just I don't really have that search anymore, 1007 00:52:31,805 --> 00:52:33,565 Speaker 3: or that desire to search like that. 1008 00:52:34,165 --> 00:52:37,965 Speaker 1: In your recovery with a husband who can relate because 1009 00:52:38,005 --> 00:52:43,485 Speaker 1: he's also experienced a similar addiction, have there been moments 1010 00:52:43,605 --> 00:52:46,325 Speaker 1: in times over the years where one or the other 1011 00:52:46,365 --> 00:52:49,245 Speaker 1: of you has fallen off that proverbial wagon. 1012 00:52:52,005 --> 00:52:56,805 Speaker 3: No, we are pretty good about recognizing when we're feeling triggered, 1013 00:52:57,245 --> 00:53:02,005 Speaker 3: and you know, we might make those decisions that could 1014 00:53:02,045 --> 00:53:05,005 Speaker 3: be destructive, and we've gotten really good at talking to 1015 00:53:05,045 --> 00:53:07,965 Speaker 3: each other. I mean, of course we feel we feel 1016 00:53:08,005 --> 00:53:11,685 Speaker 3: triggered sometimes part of you know, being an addict and 1017 00:53:11,725 --> 00:53:15,125 Speaker 3: having that sort of past. But I mean as far 1018 00:53:15,165 --> 00:53:17,365 Speaker 3: as falling off the wagon, I like, to me, that 1019 00:53:17,445 --> 00:53:22,525 Speaker 3: kind of suggests like like there's really destructive, like like 1020 00:53:22,685 --> 00:53:25,245 Speaker 3: falling out, like things blow up in your life. 1021 00:53:25,245 --> 00:53:28,285 Speaker 1: And I we have antiquated language even in and even 1022 00:53:28,485 --> 00:53:30,405 Speaker 1: like for me to afraid of the mission in that way, 1023 00:53:30,525 --> 00:53:32,205 Speaker 1: is that like did the nineties call and want my 1024 00:53:32,285 --> 00:53:34,725 Speaker 1: question back? Like, what's a better what's a better way 1025 00:53:34,725 --> 00:53:35,685 Speaker 1: to ask that question? 1026 00:53:36,405 --> 00:53:39,325 Speaker 3: I don't know, No, I think that's the best word 1027 00:53:39,365 --> 00:53:41,805 Speaker 3: for it. But I guess we all have different ideas 1028 00:53:41,805 --> 00:53:45,285 Speaker 3: of what falling off the wagon means. And you know, 1029 00:53:45,485 --> 00:53:49,205 Speaker 3: like with with sex addiction, like in a relationship where 1030 00:53:49,205 --> 00:53:52,325 Speaker 3: we have sex, it's it's hard to fall off the wagon. 1031 00:53:52,445 --> 00:53:54,685 Speaker 3: Like I haven't cheated, I don't cheat on my husband, 1032 00:53:54,765 --> 00:53:57,605 Speaker 3: I don't lie to my husband. I haven't like spent 1033 00:53:57,725 --> 00:54:01,085 Speaker 3: days in bed binging on poorn secretly. You know, those 1034 00:54:01,165 --> 00:54:03,925 Speaker 3: kind of things would would seem to me like maybe 1035 00:54:03,925 --> 00:54:06,965 Speaker 3: falling off the wagon. I haven't, but I have felt triggered, 1036 00:54:07,445 --> 00:54:10,765 Speaker 3: and when I do feel triggered, luckily, I have ways 1037 00:54:10,805 --> 00:54:13,685 Speaker 3: to deal with those triggers and healthier ways so that 1038 00:54:13,765 --> 00:54:14,885 Speaker 3: I don't blow up my life. 1039 00:54:15,405 --> 00:54:18,165 Speaker 1: So yeah, and I'm fairly curious to know, because I 1040 00:54:18,165 --> 00:54:20,965 Speaker 1: you know, we're living in a time where a lot 1041 00:54:21,005 --> 00:54:23,605 Speaker 1: of people, in a lot of different ways are rethinking 1042 00:54:23,805 --> 00:54:27,245 Speaker 1: what relationships look like, what families look like, what boundaries 1043 00:54:27,285 --> 00:54:32,045 Speaker 1: and parameters around marriage or commitment looks like. And you 1044 00:54:32,085 --> 00:54:35,205 Speaker 1: know what a few years ago would have been quite taboo. 1045 00:54:35,645 --> 00:54:39,245 Speaker 1: You know, these ideas of consensual non monogamy is now 1046 00:54:39,245 --> 00:54:41,965 Speaker 1: becoming a little bit more mainstream. We have better frameworks 1047 00:54:41,965 --> 00:54:45,085 Speaker 1: for understanding these things. I'm curious to know. You know, 1048 00:54:45,085 --> 00:54:47,205 Speaker 1: I'm not asking for you to tell me the personal 1049 00:54:47,205 --> 00:54:50,365 Speaker 1: details of your marriage, but I'm curious to know how 1050 00:54:50,445 --> 00:54:55,685 Speaker 1: non monogamy is another bead on the chain of your healing, 1051 00:54:56,285 --> 00:55:00,525 Speaker 1: and how opening up your marriage to non monogamy has 1052 00:55:00,605 --> 00:55:03,605 Speaker 1: helped you to stay in a place of sexual health 1053 00:55:03,685 --> 00:55:04,405 Speaker 1: and well being. 1054 00:55:05,365 --> 00:55:08,565 Speaker 3: I think it's reclaiming that empowerment that I wish I 1055 00:55:08,605 --> 00:55:11,525 Speaker 3: had felt way back when I first made these discoveries 1056 00:55:11,645 --> 00:55:14,325 Speaker 3: with my body. I think it's letting go of the shame. 1057 00:55:14,405 --> 00:55:17,285 Speaker 3: It's another step in that direction of saying this feels 1058 00:55:17,285 --> 00:55:20,445 Speaker 3: good to me, this feels healthy, This doesn't feel destructive. 1059 00:55:20,485 --> 00:55:22,925 Speaker 3: This is something I want to do, and I want 1060 00:55:22,925 --> 00:55:24,645 Speaker 3: to do it with my husband too. I mean that 1061 00:55:24,685 --> 00:55:27,365 Speaker 3: may evolve over time how we approach this thing, but 1062 00:55:27,445 --> 00:55:30,485 Speaker 3: for now, we only approach this together, and it takes 1063 00:55:30,525 --> 00:55:34,125 Speaker 3: a lot of conversation, a lot of boundary setting, and 1064 00:55:34,165 --> 00:55:36,565 Speaker 3: I think that's also really important when it comes to 1065 00:55:36,925 --> 00:55:41,605 Speaker 3: healing is being able to have these authentic and challenging conversations. 1066 00:55:42,165 --> 00:55:45,485 Speaker 3: But yeah, it's really just saying I want to continue 1067 00:55:45,485 --> 00:55:49,605 Speaker 3: being a sexually empowered person and experimental and it's okay 1068 00:55:49,605 --> 00:55:52,245 Speaker 3: to be that even if you had an addictive past. 1069 00:55:52,725 --> 00:55:54,845 Speaker 3: I get to define what this recovery looks like. 1070 00:55:56,005 --> 00:55:59,765 Speaker 1: Erica, you mentioned earlier the advice that you give when 1071 00:55:59,805 --> 00:56:02,365 Speaker 1: someone reaches out to you and says, I wonder if 1072 00:56:02,405 --> 00:56:06,325 Speaker 1: I have a sex addiction of porn addiction. What is 1073 00:56:06,365 --> 00:56:10,405 Speaker 1: the advice that you give if someone wonders if they're 1074 00:56:10,485 --> 00:56:13,165 Speaker 1: loved one, if their partner, if someone in their life 1075 00:56:13,405 --> 00:56:17,645 Speaker 1: is struggling with these addictions. Because sometimes people can make 1076 00:56:17,725 --> 00:56:20,445 Speaker 1: things worse even with the best of intentions, Right, how 1077 00:56:21,125 --> 00:56:24,485 Speaker 1: do you advise we approach someone in our life if 1078 00:56:24,525 --> 00:56:27,085 Speaker 1: we're worried that they're struggling with something like this. 1079 00:56:27,765 --> 00:56:31,845 Speaker 3: I think maybe talking to a therapist first before you 1080 00:56:31,925 --> 00:56:34,885 Speaker 3: even approach the person, because you don't know what everyone's 1081 00:56:34,965 --> 00:56:36,885 Speaker 3: dynamic is a little bit different. You don't know if 1082 00:56:36,885 --> 00:56:39,485 Speaker 3: that person is going to react in a defensive way, 1083 00:56:39,525 --> 00:56:41,525 Speaker 3: if they're not ready to face those problems. You don't 1084 00:56:41,525 --> 00:56:43,885 Speaker 3: know if they actually even have an addiction unless you 1085 00:56:43,965 --> 00:56:47,285 Speaker 3: have a thoroughly researched addiction. So I think the first 1086 00:56:47,325 --> 00:56:50,085 Speaker 3: step is for you yourself to go to a therapist 1087 00:56:50,205 --> 00:56:53,005 Speaker 3: and talk about your partner and what's been going on. 1088 00:56:53,605 --> 00:56:56,125 Speaker 3: And they should probably have a pretty good like based 1089 00:56:56,165 --> 00:56:57,885 Speaker 3: on what they know about your history and what you've 1090 00:56:57,885 --> 00:57:00,125 Speaker 3: told them about your relationship, they'll have a pretty good 1091 00:57:00,365 --> 00:57:03,285 Speaker 3: recommendation on where you go from there. I think bringing 1092 00:57:03,365 --> 00:57:06,805 Speaker 3: up those conversations with your partner can be really delicate, 1093 00:57:07,045 --> 00:57:09,205 Speaker 3: and there's a lot of ideas about you know, sex 1094 00:57:09,645 --> 00:57:12,005 Speaker 3: being these like cheating maniacs. There's a lot of you 1095 00:57:12,045 --> 00:57:13,685 Speaker 3: know it has been in the news, like the Harvey 1096 00:57:13,765 --> 00:57:17,445 Speaker 3: Weinsteins of the world. And I don't think that most 1097 00:57:17,485 --> 00:57:20,005 Speaker 3: sex addicts are out to hurt other people and cheat 1098 00:57:20,085 --> 00:57:22,845 Speaker 3: on their partners. I think they're more likely to hurt 1099 00:57:22,885 --> 00:57:25,925 Speaker 3: themselves than hurt the people around them, and so I 1100 00:57:25,965 --> 00:57:28,285 Speaker 3: think to be gentle with them and to find a 1101 00:57:28,325 --> 00:57:31,445 Speaker 3: way with your therapist to approach them with care and 1102 00:57:31,525 --> 00:57:34,685 Speaker 3: kindness and empathy is the best way forward. Not to 1103 00:57:34,725 --> 00:57:36,445 Speaker 3: go at them with any kind of accusation. 1104 00:57:38,405 --> 00:57:45,485 Speaker 1: I think that's really good advice before this conversation and 1105 00:57:45,565 --> 00:57:48,485 Speaker 1: before reading Erica's book. I had never actually heard of 1106 00:57:48,525 --> 00:57:52,165 Speaker 1: the concept of shame addiction, had you. I didn't actually 1107 00:57:52,205 --> 00:57:54,205 Speaker 1: know that shame is something that we could be addicted to, 1108 00:57:54,365 --> 00:57:57,365 Speaker 1: and now that I do, it kind of illuminates a 1109 00:57:57,405 --> 00:57:59,565 Speaker 1: lot of things for me. There's so many stories I've 1110 00:57:59,565 --> 00:58:02,805 Speaker 1: heard a lot of them here on this podcast, with 1111 00:58:02,925 --> 00:58:06,245 Speaker 1: people who have struggled with so many things, various addictions, 1112 00:58:06,325 --> 00:58:10,245 Speaker 1: various behaviors. To think that maybe they were seeking shame 1113 00:58:10,645 --> 00:58:13,765 Speaker 1: in some way brings a lot of things just into 1114 00:58:13,765 --> 00:58:17,125 Speaker 1: sharper focus for me. I also really love how sex 1115 00:58:17,205 --> 00:58:20,445 Speaker 1: positive and sexually adventurous Erica still is, and that she 1116 00:58:20,525 --> 00:58:23,885 Speaker 1: and her husband are exploring things like consensual non monogamy. 1117 00:58:24,565 --> 00:58:27,005 Speaker 1: I think it reminds us that recovery doesn't look the 1118 00:58:27,005 --> 00:58:29,765 Speaker 1: same for everyone, and it really comes down to how 1119 00:58:29,805 --> 00:58:31,605 Speaker 1: we feel about ourselves at the end of the day, 1120 00:58:31,645 --> 00:58:35,765 Speaker 1: whether we respect and value ourselves. So interesting to think 1121 00:58:35,805 --> 00:58:38,285 Speaker 1: that the same behavior could be bad for us if 1122 00:58:38,285 --> 00:58:40,605 Speaker 1: we were doing it from a place of shame and 1123 00:58:40,645 --> 00:58:43,885 Speaker 1: self loathing, and good for us if we're doing it 1124 00:58:43,925 --> 00:58:46,885 Speaker 1: from a place of you know, self love and care 1125 00:58:47,845 --> 00:58:49,685 Speaker 1: Erica is a busy mom, but she did tell me 1126 00:58:49,725 --> 00:58:52,605 Speaker 1: that she might write another book about non monogamy and 1127 00:58:52,725 --> 00:58:55,405 Speaker 1: what she's learning from opening her marriage, and if she does, 1128 00:58:55,525 --> 00:58:58,245 Speaker 1: I promise we'll bring her back onto No Filter or 1129 00:58:58,325 --> 00:59:02,005 Speaker 1: should that be an amazing story. As always, we've popped 1130 00:59:02,045 --> 00:59:03,845 Speaker 1: all the links that you need in our show notes, 1131 00:59:03,885 --> 00:59:06,445 Speaker 1: including how to get your hands on Erica's book and 1132 00:59:06,525 --> 00:59:10,165 Speaker 1: some resources that she's sent through in case this triggered 1133 00:59:10,205 --> 00:59:12,205 Speaker 1: anything for you, or you feel like you might need 1134 00:59:12,245 --> 00:59:15,725 Speaker 1: a little bit of guidance and support. Mia Friedman is 1135 00:59:15,765 --> 00:59:18,165 Speaker 1: a host and creator of No Filter. It was fun. 1136 00:59:18,485 --> 00:59:21,005 Speaker 1: It's not a little daunting to step into her very 1137 00:59:21,005 --> 00:59:24,485 Speaker 1: pool shoes today. The executive producer of No Filter is 1138 00:59:24,525 --> 00:59:27,005 Speaker 1: me Naima Brown, And like I said in the intro, 1139 00:59:27,245 --> 00:59:29,565 Speaker 1: if you don't know about the pam and Tommy Lee story, 1140 00:59:29,685 --> 00:59:32,605 Speaker 1: I really recommend you watch Netflix documentary Pamela. 1141 00:59:32,685 --> 00:59:34,485 Speaker 3: It tells the whole story. It's so great. 1142 00:59:35,085 --> 00:59:38,405 Speaker 1: Audio production and sound design is my Tom Lyon and 1143 00:59:38,445 --> 00:59:41,525 Speaker 1: he loves these taboo smashing stories as much as I do. 1144 00:59:42,325 --> 00:59:45,485 Speaker 1: More stories equals less shame, and less shame is good 1145 00:59:45,565 --> 00:59:47,485 Speaker 1: for all of us. Thanks for listening.