Speaker 1: So much.
Speaker 2: You're listening to a MoMA Maya podcast. Mamma Mayer acknowledges
Speaker 2: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
Speaker 2: is recorded.
Speaker 3: On Hello, no filter listeners. This is Naima Brown, the
Speaker 3: executive producer of this show and also of But Are
Speaker 3: You Happy? And I am very excited to bring you
Speaker 3: the first episode of the new season of But Are
Speaker 3: You Happy? Hosted by a Shawne Dante and doctor Anastasia Heronus.
Speaker 3: Ashawnee and Anastasia will be bringing you the self development
Speaker 3: and mental health conversations that we know you want that
Speaker 3: you've asked us for about everything from worry spirals anxiety,
Speaker 3: to why you keep dating the wrong person, to how
Speaker 3: to spot the narcissist in your life so many more topics.
Speaker 3: We know you're gonna like it. Enjoy this first episode
Speaker 3: and please like and follow But Are You Happy wherever
Speaker 3: you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 4: Due to circumstances that were completely in my control and
Speaker 4: actually pretty predictable based on my past behavior, I will
Speaker 4: be spiraling for the next week or so.
Speaker 2: Anyone needs anything, I'm God, poor mother Mia.
Speaker 1: I'm your host, as Shani Dante. Welcome to But Are
Speaker 1: You happy because no another personality quiz won't fix you.
Speaker 5: And I'm doctor Anastagia Hernis a clinical psychologist passionate about
Speaker 5: happiness and mental health. Now, do you ever get stuck
Speaker 5: thinking about a hypothetical situation that isn't really happening and
Speaker 5: asking yourself a bunch of questions that make you more
Speaker 5: and more stressed. You've probably found yourself in a stress spiral.
Speaker 1: If you've listened to this show before, my voice may
Speaker 1: not be familiar. I'm a mental wellbeing and self development leader.
Speaker 1: I'm Australian fore Lunkan, and I'm constantly on a journey
Speaker 1: of learning more about my.
Speaker 2: Culture and my passion.
Speaker 1: And you could say purpose in life right now is
Speaker 1: all around empowering teenage girls and young women.
Speaker 5: And I'm an academic and author. Most recently i published
Speaker 5: a book called The Dopamine Brain. So my whole career
Speaker 5: focus really is about how to help people develop new
Speaker 5: habits to optimize their mental health.
Speaker 1: We're going to be shifting gears to bring you what
Speaker 1: you told us you wanted conversations with an expert about
Speaker 1: the things that you are thinking about, working on, struggling through,
Speaker 1: or really just curious about and that's where you Doctor
Speaker 1: Anastasia heronus, you come into the equation.
Speaker 5: We're going to be covering so many relevant topics like
Speaker 5: how to stop dating the wrong person, how to say
Speaker 5: no to the people we love, and how to actually
Speaker 5: quieten down that voice in our head when it's being
Speaker 5: really mean to us.
Speaker 1: In each episode, you'll be getting all of Doctor Anastasia's
Speaker 1: wisdom and knowledge, along with her clear takeaways specific guidance
Speaker 1: for how you can apply this information to your lives.
Speaker 2: Right now, as you may.
Speaker 1: Have guessed, we're kicking this season off with the topic
Speaker 1: that we know so many of us can struggle with,
Speaker 1: including myself, anxiety, worry and getting called in those stress spirals.
Speaker 5: Now, this is something so many of my clients have
Speaker 5: been dealing with lately, and you might be.
Speaker 1: Two, All right, let's jump in, okay, on the staga,
Speaker 1: How do we actually know if we're anxious?
Speaker 2: How does it show up?
Speaker 5: Anxiety is a massive topic. There's so much for us
Speaker 5: to talk about here, and it really does exist on
Speaker 5: a spectrum of experiences. It's one of the most common
Speaker 5: things actually that a lot of my clients are facing
Speaker 5: at the moment. And if we put this kind of
Speaker 5: in the context of Aussies around the country. About three
Speaker 5: million Australians actually live with anxiety. It's about one in
Speaker 5: four of us will experience problematic anxiety at some point
Speaker 5: in our lives.
Speaker 1: That's a wild stat and just goes to show how
Speaker 1: common it is. And we'd love to kind of unpack
Speaker 1: anxiety because I feel like it does get.
Speaker 2: A really bad rap. Yeah, it's so common.
Speaker 5: Yes, anxiety gets a bad rap. It doesn't feel good, right,
Speaker 5: And none of us like to feel anxious, and so
Speaker 5: it's sort of classified broadly as one of these bad emotions,
Speaker 5: an emotion that we want to get rid of. We
Speaker 5: don't want to feel anxious, so how do we get
Speaker 5: rid of it? But actually, anxiety, along with every other emotion,
Speaker 5: serves a really important function all emotions. It's important for
Speaker 5: us to think about them as sources of information. They're
Speaker 5: like data points. They give us information about ourselves, about
Speaker 5: the world, about the environment around us. So I think
Speaker 5: it's crucial for us to be able to lean into
Speaker 5: the information that an emotion actually gives us. Now, if
Speaker 5: we circle back to anxiety specifically, the function of anxiety
Speaker 5: is to essentially be the body's smoke detector and smoke alarm, right,
Speaker 5: So anxiety is giving us the message that there might
Speaker 5: be some sort of danger or threat in the environment
Speaker 5: that we need to be aware of and perhaps then
Speaker 5: do something to protect ourselves.
Speaker 1: It's really great that you're unpacking this because I feel
Speaker 1: like what I'm hearing is anxiety can actually be helpful
Speaker 1: as well at times, which is very different to I
Speaker 1: would say what we naturally have our definition of anxiety.
Speaker 2: We want to shame it.
Speaker 1: There's a stigma around it, we don't want to talk
Speaker 1: about it, we want to push it away. Yet what
Speaker 1: I'm hearing is it is actually giving us more information about,
Speaker 1: you know, the context of the situation that might be playing out.
Speaker 1: So in saying that, like, how do you differentiate between
Speaker 1: when anxiety is helpful and unhelpful?
Speaker 5: Anxiety will always show up in all of us throughout
Speaker 5: our life, so we can't get rid of it completely.
Speaker 5: So I think this question about helpful versus unhelpful anxiety
Speaker 5: is really important. Unhelpful anxiety is when we experience anxiety
Speaker 5: that's out of context. So let me explain what I
Speaker 5: mean by that. If we experience anxiety in a situation
Speaker 5: that doesn't warrant us to be anxious. That's going to
Speaker 5: be unhelpful for us. So if we're sitting in the
Speaker 5: podcast studio right now talking and all of a sudden,
Speaker 5: a big grizzly bear runs through the studio, we're going
Speaker 5: to feel anxious, Right, normal natural emotion. We want to
Speaker 5: feel anxious in that situation because anxiety is going to
Speaker 5: prompt us to get up and run out of this place. Right.
Speaker 5: Helpful anxiety so unhelpful. Anxiety sends us a message which
Speaker 5: makes us overestimate the likelihood things are going to go wrong.
Speaker 5: So I think this is a great episode for us
Speaker 5: to be starting with and talking about. But to answer
Speaker 5: your question, how does anxiety show up? I'm actually going
Speaker 5: to use a client of mine. We're going to call
Speaker 5: her Catherine for not actually her name, but to be anonymous,
Speaker 5: we'll call her Catherine. She had to do a lot
Speaker 5: of public speaking for her work and in her role,
Speaker 5: but would get this crippling, overwhelming fear of getting on
Speaker 5: stage and making a full of herself and saying the
Speaker 5: wrong thing. Now, there was no history of her ever
Speaker 5: really doing that. She was generally pretty fine with her
Speaker 5: public speaking, and even if she did kind of get
Speaker 5: on stage and say something a little wrong. It wasn't
Speaker 5: kind of the end of the world. So anxiety makes
Speaker 5: us overestimate that things will go wrong, But it does
Speaker 5: another thing. It also makes us underestimate our ability to
Speaker 5: cope if things do go wrong, because I don't have
Speaker 5: a magic wand to say that Catherine will never get
Speaker 5: on stage and never make a full of herself. Right,
Speaker 5: there is a world in which that could happen. So
Speaker 5: there is a chance. It's probably a small chance, but
Speaker 5: there is a chance. But anxiety makes us underestimate our
Speaker 5: ability to cope if that happens. So if Catherine got
Speaker 5: on stage and completely forgot what she was meant to
Speaker 5: be saying in her presentation, it would feel pretty crappy,
Speaker 5: like it wouldn't be a nice experience for her. The
Speaker 5: crowd would probably be like, oh, she's forgot what she's
Speaker 5: meant to say. But in reality, it's a situation she
Speaker 5: could cope with. She'd just walk off, take a breath,
Speaker 5: grab her notes, come back on the stage, keep going.
Speaker 5: Probably no one ever thinks about it again. So that's
Speaker 5: an example of where anxiety can be unhelpful for us,
Speaker 5: because all it was doing was making Catherine feel completely
Speaker 5: overwhelmed and stressed when she didn't really need to.
Speaker 1: I really love this too, because it kind of ties
Speaker 1: back to your statistic that you've named before and how
Speaker 1: common it is. But also what I'm hearing is that
Speaker 1: even though it's common, anxiety can show up in different ways.
Speaker 1: So I like that you're kind of giving us the
Speaker 1: listeners different ideas of what that could potentially look like.
Speaker 5: Yes, And the reason it is so common is because
Speaker 5: from a biological prehistoric perspective, anxiety was crucial for the
Speaker 5: survival of the species, if we remember, it serves evolutionary
Speaker 5: function to protect us. It's just that nowadays we live
Speaker 5: in a world, in a society, especially if you live
Speaker 5: in here in Australia, where we don't need to be
Speaker 5: as alert for threats and dangers. But emotions exist in
Speaker 5: a very primal part of the brain, so we feel
Speaker 5: those emotional experiences much more and that anxiety much more
Speaker 5: than actually need to given how our life and society
Speaker 5: functions these days.
Speaker 1: So what about a stress spiral, Like, what exactly is
Speaker 1: a stress spirl?
Speaker 2: And how can you tell if you're caughting one?
Speaker 5: I love this because a stress spiral is not necessarily
Speaker 5: a clinical technical term that I would use, but it
Speaker 5: is definitely a term that many of my clients will
Speaker 5: use right in sort of pop culture, and when people
Speaker 5: colloquially talk about anxiety, they will talk about being in
Speaker 5: a stress spiral. And so I guess what people are
Speaker 5: getting at is this idea of getting deeper and deeper
Speaker 5: in an experience. Stress Again, a normal natural emotion that
Speaker 5: will all experience at some point in time when we're
Speaker 5: feeling overwhelmed with some sort of pressure. But what can
Speaker 5: happen is we can get caught further and further in
Speaker 5: that experience, which ultimately makes it more and more intense.
Speaker 1: So does that mean in a way with stress spirals?
Speaker 1: Because you mentioned and I hear it all the time.
Speaker 1: It is thrown around a lot in pop culture. So
Speaker 1: what isn't a stress viral?
Speaker 5: Then that's a good alternative question. What isn't a stress viral?
Speaker 5: What isn't a stress viral is when we experience stress
Speaker 5: in a way that meets the expectation of a situation.
Speaker 5: So if I have an impending deadline for work on
Speaker 5: Friday and it's now Thursday and I haven't got it
Speaker 5: almost done, stress is going to naturally come about, and
Speaker 5: stress can actually be a really useful thing in that situation.
Speaker 5: Because I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but
Speaker 5: a little bit of healthy stress helps us get things done.
Speaker 2: Very true can confirm.
Speaker 5: So healthy stress actually motivates us to meet the deadline,
Speaker 5: to get done what we need to do. Unhealthy stress
Speaker 5: debilitates us.
Speaker 1: It's really interesting because I'm hearing some common themes. Even
Speaker 1: with anxiety. What we're hearing is it's helpful and unhelpful.
Speaker 1: But also with stress, it's helpful and also unhelpful.
Speaker 5: So and that goes with all emotions. All emotions can
Speaker 5: be helpful when they fit the context and when we
Speaker 5: experience them in a way that feels manageable. But if
Speaker 5: we experience them too intensely or too much or for
Speaker 5: too long, they can become really debilitating in our lives.
Speaker 1: So is there a difference between anxiety in the body
Speaker 1: as we feel it versus thinking anxious thoughts.
Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely, they're absolutely related. They're connected. So our thoughts,
Speaker 5: our thoughts are very powerful. They certainly influence how we feel.
Speaker 5: So if I'm worrying, if I'm going through that anxious
Speaker 5: thinking process, I'm more likely to feel anxiety in the body.
Speaker 5: But one of the things I interestingly find in the
Speaker 5: work that I do with clients is that people tend
Speaker 5: to fall into one of two categories. Some people will
Speaker 5: come into the therapy room and they'll be able to
Speaker 5: describe to me in great detail the physical experience of anxiety.
Speaker 5: So they'll tell me that get anxious, and they'll say,
Speaker 5: I feel my heart racing, I get sweaty, I feel dizzy,
Speaker 5: I feel like I'm going to faint, my legs feel wobbly,
Speaker 5: and I feel like I can't stand up anymore. So
Speaker 5: they can give me all the details about what it
Speaker 5: physically feels like in their body. Other people can come
Speaker 5: in the room and tell me great details about what
Speaker 5: they're thinking, their thought processes, and the things that they're
Speaker 5: worrying about. And ultimately, what we want to help people
Speaker 5: do is have an awareness of both the thought processes
Speaker 5: that can be quite anxious in nature and the physical
Speaker 5: experience of anxiety in the body.
Speaker 1: So what about a panic attack, What exactly is that.
Speaker 5: A panic attack is different to anxiety. We could sort
Speaker 5: of summarize it as a much more intense experience of
Speaker 5: anxiety in and of itself. So a panic attack tends
Speaker 5: to last not more than ten minutes on average. And
Speaker 5: when people experience a panic attack, they have this overwhelming
Speaker 5: physical experience of those anxious sensations, so really intense heart racing, sweating,
Speaker 5: feeling shaky, feeling like they're going to faint. And often
Speaker 5: people actually describe it as a feeling where they think
Speaker 5: they're having a heart attack or they think they might
Speaker 5: be dying. Like it's actually quite a scary experience for
Speaker 5: those who do have panic attacks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like panic attacks. It's something I feel.
Speaker 1: I hear all the time with people who've experienced personally
Speaker 1: or observed someone else that they love going through one,
Speaker 1: and it can be quite confronting in a way.
Speaker 5: And the thing is, often these panic attacks can feel
Speaker 5: like they come out of nowhere. There isn't always a
Speaker 5: clear trigger, So it's not necessarily like, you know, Catherine
Speaker 5: about to go on stage, worrying about is she going
Speaker 5: to make a fool out of herself Pete. Someone might
Speaker 5: literally just be sitting in the office and all of
Speaker 5: a sudden they get this onslaught of anxious symptoms and
Speaker 5: they have a panic attack. Sometimes the trigger can be
Speaker 5: outside in the environment. But actually sometimes it can be
Speaker 5: an internal sensation. So for example, if I've had a
Speaker 5: couple of cups of coffee today, maybe a few too
Speaker 5: many cups of coffee, well, my heart might be racing
Speaker 5: a little bit faster than it usually would, and that's
Speaker 5: because of the stimulant from the caffeine. But someone who's
Speaker 5: prone to panic attacks might be sitting in the office
Speaker 5: and goof, my heart's racing. Heart racing equals anxiousness and anxiety.
Speaker 5: What's happening in my life right now that I'm anxious about?
Speaker 5: And so then they'll start spiraling down that rabbit hole,
Speaker 5: whereas it's actually just a physical sensation that they've picked
Speaker 5: up on and honed in on a bit too much.
Speaker 1: So does that mean because what I'm hearing panic attacks,
Speaker 1: it's definitely a really big it's a body sensation.
Speaker 2: It's quite sounds quite severe.
Speaker 1: So then what's the difference between just feeling anxiety in
Speaker 1: your body versus I'm having a panic attack.
Speaker 5: I think it comes back to the usefulness of the experience.
Speaker 5: So when someone has a panic attack, it's for those
Speaker 5: ten or so minutes it's debilitating. It feels like they
Speaker 5: cannot function. People might often have to actually leave the
Speaker 5: room and excuse themselves, whereas anxiety in and of itself
Speaker 5: might be uncomfortable, but we can still function in the world.
Speaker 5: It can motivate us to take an action that's helpful
Speaker 5: for us.
Speaker 1: So it's a bit like there's a bit of a spectrum,
Speaker 1: but if it's anxiety in the body, there's somewhat more
Speaker 1: control around how you can move through it.
Speaker 5: Yes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you've told us a bit about Catherine with
Speaker 1: her fear of public speaking. What are some of the
Speaker 1: other themes you're noticing in your clinical work.
Speaker 5: Anxiety shows up in so many different ways for people.
Speaker 5: But actually, interestingly, one of the recent themes I've seen
Speaker 5: is this anxiousness and worry about big picture kind of
Speaker 5: global events, So things like worrying about wars, worrying about
Speaker 5: climate change, worrying about politics and how politics are going
Speaker 5: to influence the future. And often in these cases they're
Speaker 5: issues that are so big that one person, you know,
Speaker 5: can't necessarily change them. So there's this theme of anxiety
Speaker 5: coming through the clinic room where people are feeling really
Speaker 5: quite overwhelmed and sometimes also a little bit hopeless, kind
Speaker 5: of at the state of affairs in the world at
Speaker 5: the moment. So that's one thing I've seen more of,
Speaker 5: particularly with climate change. Young people are really worried about
Speaker 5: and wanting to talk about climate change at the moment.
Speaker 5: But another one is cost of living. Things have become
Speaker 5: so expensive at the moment. We're certainly in a cost
Speaker 5: of living crisis, and that can range from people worrying
Speaker 5: about how they're going to, you know, afford to buy
Speaker 5: a house one day in the future if that's one
Speaker 5: of their goals, all the way down to do I
Speaker 5: have enough money to buy groceries this week?
Speaker 1: I mean, the cost of living example is so relatable
Speaker 1: and I think even for me personally. Once I left
Speaker 1: high school, I went straight into university and then went
Speaker 1: down that traditional path, but then I decided to get
Speaker 1: into the startup world, so I started the flourish journey,
Speaker 1: which I'm so incredibly proud of.
Speaker 2: But in saying that, you.
Speaker 1: Know, startup life, you don't really have a very stable income,
Speaker 1: which means you can't really secure alone for a home,
Speaker 1: And to be honest, when you're in your early twenties,
Speaker 1: you don't really.
Speaker 2: Think about those things.
Speaker 1: You think that, oh, that's a ten year problem. But
Speaker 1: fast forward, you know, I'm thirty three now. It feels
Speaker 1: like society tells you, oh, you need to have a
Speaker 1: house and have all the things set up.
Speaker 2: By thirty and that weighs on me.
Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like I am behind, even
Speaker 1: though it's so easy to look at the highlight reels
Speaker 1: on Instagram and know that it is the highlight reels,
Speaker 1: but you still get sucked into it. So it's definitely
Speaker 1: something that weighs on me. I'm not sure if that's
Speaker 1: something you can relate to as well.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, this idea of kind of financially where we should
Speaker 5: be at any point in our life and how much
Speaker 5: we should have saved or what we should have done
Speaker 5: with that money, is you know, something I can relate
Speaker 5: to as well. But as I said, like a lot
Speaker 5: of people, a lot of younger people are kind of
Speaker 5: thinking about this and worrying about it as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of shame around
Speaker 1: talking about money, right, and so often we feel like
Speaker 1: we're alone in it, or we feel like we're the
Speaker 1: poorest friend out of everyone.
Speaker 5: And the starts speak to the opposite, right, So so
Speaker 5: many people are actually struggling financially. And I was actually
Speaker 5: looking at a report that came out last year from
Speaker 5: Mission Australia and it surveyed almost twenty thousand people and
Speaker 5: a particularly young cohort. Right, So these were fifteen to
Speaker 5: nineteen year olds, and what they found is that fifty
Speaker 5: five percent, so more than half, were significantly worried about
Speaker 5: and had anxiety about their financial security. And I was
Speaker 5: just blown away when I read that, because I was like,
Speaker 5: fifteen to nineteen year olds, like we should be worried about.
Speaker 5: Fifteen is like you know, the fight that you've had
Speaker 5: with your friends at school, and like you're going to
Speaker 5: sit with at lunch and maybe studying for tests, not
Speaker 5: financial security for your future.
Speaker 1: After this short break, duck down a stage is going
Speaker 1: to teach you the five minute method to help you
Speaker 1: break out of an anxiety spiral and stop an anxiety attack.
Speaker 2: In its tracks.
Speaker 1: At Asasia, I want to ask you for two techniques today. First,
Speaker 1: I want you to tell us what we can do
Speaker 1: for ourselves where we find ourselves spirally, and what should
Speaker 1: we do for someone else.
Speaker 2: Let's start with ourselves.
Speaker 5: So the technique and the strategies that I'm going to
Speaker 5: give you today are based on a type of therapy
Speaker 5: called cognitive behavior therapy or CBT for short, and it
Speaker 5: has the evidence behind it. It's sort of the gold
Speaker 5: standard therapeutic approach that we would use for someone who
Speaker 5: is experiencing anxiety. It's what I used with Catherine when
Speaker 5: she was worried about getting on stage and doing her
Speaker 5: public speaking. So what I first recommends to people, and
Speaker 5: this is going to sound really basic, but bear with me,
Speaker 5: is stop as a first step, just stop, take a moment,
Speaker 5: take a breath, take a pause. For us to be
Speaker 5: able to do kind of anything effective for ourselves, we
Speaker 5: first need to be able to just stop and take
Speaker 5: a breath and ground ourselves in the moment.
Speaker 1: It's really interesting because it can sound really basic, but
Speaker 1: also it can be really hard when you're in it
Speaker 1: so deeply.
Speaker 2: It's hard to stop.
Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely, And so I say to people, just like physically, stop,
Speaker 5: don't take another step, don't say another word, you know, metaphorically,
Speaker 5: even if you're sort of in a situation where you
Speaker 5: are in a meeting at work or something, imagine yourself stopping,
Speaker 5: but just kind of take that moment, take that pause,
Speaker 5: take that breath, because once we've done that we're in
Speaker 5: a better position to help ourselves through the next few steps.
Speaker 5: So once we've stopped, we want to take a moment
Speaker 5: to think about our thinking, reflect on our thoughts, actually
Speaker 5: notice what our brain and our mind is telling us.
Speaker 5: We were saying earlier that the mind is so powerful,
Speaker 5: our thoughts are so powerful, and they certainly influence us
Speaker 5: to feel particular ways. But not everything that we think, well,
Speaker 5: not everything that we tell ourselves is actually true. We
Speaker 5: all engage in unhelpful patterns of thinking. We might catastrophize,
Speaker 5: we might be quite black and white now thinking, we
Speaker 5: might just jump to conclusions. We do all these sort
Speaker 5: of thought patterns quite naturally, but they can actually be
Speaker 5: really unhelpful for us. So if I circle back to Catherine,
Speaker 5: as I was saying, she would be very fearful of
Speaker 5: getting on stage, and her brain would be telling her,
Speaker 5: you're going to make a full of yourself. You're going
Speaker 5: to stuff up, you're going to forget what you have
Speaker 5: to talk about, and then you'll have to run off
Speaker 5: stage and everyone will be talking about it for the
Speaker 5: next two weeks at work. So she was telling herself
Speaker 5: all these unhelpful things that probably weren't actually going to happen,
Speaker 5: weren't very true and weren't based on any kind of
Speaker 5: history of that actually happening to her. So it's really
Speaker 5: important for us to be able to identify what is
Speaker 5: my brain actually telling me so that I can then
Speaker 5: examine A is it true? And B is it helpful?
Speaker 1: I really like that moment of pause, and essentially we're
Speaker 1: kind of zooming out to see what are we thinking
Speaker 1: and if it is helpful or not helpful.
Speaker 2: And I find even journaling.
Speaker 1: Journaling is such a great way to actually put it
Speaker 1: down on paper and then getting to the bottom of it.
Speaker 1: I know, for me, there's been times where I just
Speaker 1: look at the things that I'm actually thinking about and
Speaker 1: I can't help but kind of giggle to myself, being like,
Speaker 1: this is actually ridiculous.
Speaker 2: I would never say this.
Speaker 1: To anyone else, but you know, we're all our own
Speaker 1: worst in a critic.
Speaker 5: So I love the journaling because actually seeing those words
Speaker 5: that we're internally saying to ourselves on paper, we put
Speaker 5: that distance between ourselves and the thoughts, and so we
Speaker 5: can see it with a bit more clarity. So once
Speaker 5: we've stopped, we've reflected on our thoughts, we've identified that
Speaker 5: maybe they're not that true or that helpful for the
Speaker 5: situation that we're in. I then encourage people to ask themselves,
Speaker 5: what about this situation is in your control and what's
Speaker 5: out of your control? Because once we can identify what
Speaker 5: is within our control, we can make active steps to
Speaker 5: have agency over that and change the thing that's in
Speaker 5: our control. Sometimes we get stuck being so anxious about
Speaker 5: things that are ultimately out of our control that we
Speaker 5: can't change, and that's really where worry becomes quite unhelpful
Speaker 5: for us. So if we can focus on what's in
Speaker 5: our control, we can take steps to action that and
Speaker 5: create some change for ourselves.
Speaker 1: So what happens if you're too deep in the spiral
Speaker 1: and you know the strategies you've just mentioned doesn't actually work.
Speaker 5: What do we do?
Speaker 2: Then?
Speaker 5: This is great because it's all well and good for
Speaker 5: us to be able to think about our thinking. Yeah,
Speaker 5: but if we're in a state of panic and distress
Speaker 5: and complete overwhelm, that's actually a really hard thing to do.
Speaker 5: So if we're at that eight, nine to ten out
Speaker 5: of ten level of anxiety, I actually recommend that people
Speaker 5: instead utilize the senses. Right, So there's two different ways
Speaker 5: we can do this. One is going down a pathway
Speaker 5: of what we call self soothing. So this is using
Speaker 5: the senses in a way that's really comforting and nice
Speaker 5: and kind to help bring down that level of stress
Speaker 5: and anxiety to a level that feels more manageable. So
Speaker 5: if we think across the senses, these might be things
Speaker 5: like lighting a scented candle, smelling some incense, eating something
Speaker 5: that tastes really lovely or nostalgic, you know, sipping on
Speaker 5: a hot cup of tea or oha. So utilizing the
Speaker 5: sensors in a way that's calming for the body. Tend
Speaker 5: to have sensory preferences. So for me, I love touch.
Speaker 5: If I don't feel good, my go to is it
Speaker 5: doesn't matter how hot it is, put on a jumper.
Speaker 5: I find it, like, you know, having a bit of
Speaker 5: a hug put on the jumper, it's really comforting. Get
Speaker 5: under the dona, anything that sort of is touching my
Speaker 5: skin is really calming and soothing for me. I don't know,
Speaker 5: a Shane, if you've got sensory preferences.
Speaker 1: I feel like, I mean outside of the matcha as well,
Speaker 1: like food taste is really good, but also the senses,
Speaker 1: so dim lighting, it's just so calming and it feels
Speaker 1: like I'm in a spa, but I'm at home with
Speaker 1: my fairy lights on.
Speaker 5: So yes, So the self soothing can be really effective
Speaker 5: when we can't think our way out of anxiety, but
Speaker 5: we want to physically do something to help regulate our anxiety.
Speaker 5: Self soothing is great. The other option that utilizes the
Speaker 5: sensors is a more intense version of using the sensors,
Speaker 5: and this provides a bit of a shock to the system.
Speaker 5: So if there is one strategy I could give someone
Speaker 5: to help manage their anxiety when it's at that ten
Speaker 5: out of ten peak, it's utilizing cold cold water, really
Speaker 5: frozen ice packs from the freezer, a bag of frozen peas,
Speaker 5: whatever you've got that's cold. It is incredibly effective on
Speaker 5: a physiological level for reregulating our body. One of the
Speaker 5: things we try to do is actually mimic what we
Speaker 5: call the deep dive reflex. So this is something that
Speaker 5: all mammals actually have, and it's ultimately this idea that
Speaker 5: if you jumped into a swimming pool full of cold water,
Speaker 5: you would naturally hold your breath. Your blood pressure changes,
Speaker 5: your heart rate changes, and this all happens because your
Speaker 5: body wants to conserve energy, and we can mimic this
Speaker 5: to our advantage. So I encourage people, if they're feeling
Speaker 5: really overwhelmed, jump in a cold shower. It doesn't feel pleasant,
Speaker 5: it takes a bit of bit it gots to get
Speaker 5: in there sometimes unless you someone who regularly does cold plunges.
Speaker 5: But it can be hard but incredibly effective. If you
Speaker 5: imagine yourself ten out of ten anxiety, you know, hot, flush,
Speaker 5: heart racing, sweating, dizzy, and you jumped in a cold
Speaker 5: swimming pool or a cold shower, you would pretty quickly
Speaker 5: physically feel a fair bit better. Doesn't solve the problem
Speaker 5: of what's causing the anxiety, but physically it helps reregulate
Speaker 5: us so that we're in a better position to be
Speaker 5: able to manage the anxious situation that we're faced with.
Speaker 5: If you can't jump in the cold shower, I say,
Speaker 5: get the ice packs out of the freezer, bag of
Speaker 5: frozen peas, whatever you've got that's cold in the freezer,
Speaker 5: and put it over your head and temples and around
Speaker 5: the eyes. This is the really kind of effective place
Speaker 5: we want to place the frozen object. But also if
Speaker 5: you're out and about and you don't have a freezer
Speaker 5: bag or a cold shower handy, get into woolies, go
Speaker 5: into the freezer, open that door and feel the blast
Speaker 5: of the cold. So if you're in the car, turn
Speaker 5: on the air con blast it into your face. Your
Speaker 5: face is really effective for trying to regulate with the cold.
Speaker 5: So it's my go to tip.
Speaker 1: Wow, you know, I'm so surprised that cold actually helps
Speaker 1: because I know how much it can make me stress,
Speaker 1: Like I assumed that it would spike my cortisol levels.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm just glad that there's two options here.
Speaker 1: I'm going to take the soothing route, not sure.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure about the cold therapy.
Speaker 5: But the stress is probably more before you're actually is
Speaker 5: my thoughts. That's the anxiety.
Speaker 2: Okay, cool, it's all clear. We're getting the breakthroughs here.
Speaker 2: This is great.
Speaker 1: So what if none of the techniques that you've talked
Speaker 1: about still isn't working and someone's stealing really deep emotional pain,
Speaker 1: like is that when they should seek a psychologist or
Speaker 1: a professional to get medication.
Speaker 5: Potentially, if people feel like therapy and these kinds of
Speaker 5: strategies aren't working for them. That's definitely a situation where
Speaker 5: we would encourage someone to go talk to either a
Speaker 5: GP or a psychiatrist. Both can prescribe medications to be
Speaker 5: able to talk through what the different options are. There
Speaker 5: are so many different medications when it comes to managing
Speaker 5: anxiety and our mental health that it is really important
Speaker 5: to see a professional to talk through what the different
Speaker 5: options are. But what I would say is that medication
Speaker 5: can be incredibly helpful, but is best when it's done
Speaker 5: in conjunction with therapy because often what we find is
Speaker 5: that if people just go on medication for a period
Speaker 5: of time, when they eventually decide to come off it,
Speaker 5: if they haven't addressed what the underlying concerns and issues are,
Speaker 5: they're probably very quickly going to go back to feeling anxious.
Speaker 5: So the therapy and the medication hand in hand can
Speaker 5: be a fantastic combination for people.
Speaker 1: So you've just shared with us some really great techniques
Speaker 1: around how to manage anxiety and panic attacks for ourselves,
Speaker 1: But what about someone else?
Speaker 5: If we're trying to help someone else who is feeling
Speaker 5: anxious and overwhelmed, the first thing I would recommend is
Speaker 5: don't panic yourself don't take on that other person's anxiety
Speaker 5: and panic and feel anxious or panicky yourself. Stay calm
Speaker 5: and stay with them. What I mean by stay with
Speaker 5: them is yes, physically stay with them, but emotionally, stay
Speaker 5: with them. Attune to what they're feeling, Listen to them,
Speaker 5: hear them, validate them. Everyone wants to feel heard in life,
Speaker 5: and so often it's the case that if someone's worried
Speaker 5: about something, we want to jump in with a fix totally.
Speaker 5: We want to say don't worry, everything will be fine,
Speaker 5: and probably never in the history of someone feeling anxious
Speaker 5: as that actually helps. Like if you say don't worry,
Speaker 5: everything's going to be okay, the person doesn't walk away
Speaker 5: being like, ah, okay, great, right. If we feel overwhelmed
Speaker 5: and anxious, we want to feel heard. We want to
Speaker 5: feel understood. So that's sometimes the biggest thing that we
Speaker 5: can give people, being there with them physically, but emotionally
Speaker 5: being with them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so it's so hard to do sometimes, I feel,
Speaker 1: especially with women, we're so empathetic and when someone we
Speaker 1: love that is struggling, it's easy to just subconsciously.
Speaker 2: Take that on.
Speaker 1: And I really like that you're helping us to separate ourselves,
Speaker 1: being like, it has nothing to do about you or
Speaker 1: how you showed up. It's purely what does that person need.
Speaker 5: Right now, really focusing on that person and being there
Speaker 5: for them, attuning to them. So once we've done that,
Speaker 5: the next thing is moving into helping them through it. Right,
Speaker 5: But we don't want to assume that we know what
Speaker 5: that person wants or needs right ask them, ask them
Speaker 5: if there's anything that they know that's helpful for them
Speaker 5: in these moments. They might be able to say to you, yeah,
Speaker 5: you know what, I just need you to talk to
Speaker 5: me about something else. Just distract me, tell me what
Speaker 5: you've been watching on TV lately, Like, let's just have
Speaker 5: a conversation about something else to get me through this.
Speaker 5: So people are often well resourced at knowing what they need,
Speaker 5: and that's where we can jump in and help give
Speaker 5: that to them. If, however, someone doesn't know what they
Speaker 5: need in that moment, if we ask them and they're
Speaker 5: not able to tell us, that's where we can offer
Speaker 5: some suggestions and some solutions. And sometimes the simplest one
Speaker 5: is actually us helping someone get out of the space
Speaker 5: that they're in and just going outside taking a break,
Speaker 5: grabbing a cup of coffee, moving, moving the body, and
Speaker 5: moving out of their physical surroundings and space in that moment.
Speaker 1: Okay, Anastasia, Because I'm someone that is always about having
Speaker 1: a growth by set. Next time I'm going to woolies
Speaker 1: or calls, I've got to go into the freezer aisle,
Speaker 1: grab those frozen peas and stuck up by freezer just
Speaker 1: for you.
Speaker 2: I'll report back on how it goes.
Speaker 1: After this short break, Anastasia is going to solve the
Speaker 1: personal problem that one of you, our listeners sent us.
Speaker 2: Stay with us, Berb Hereb, Bierb.
Speaker 3: I'm having a serious crisis.
Speaker 5: BRB having a crisis.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: I am really excited to debut this segment, which will
Speaker 1: be bringing you in every episode of But are you happy?
Speaker 1: This is where we respond to the dilemmas or questions
Speaker 1: that you our listeners, have sent us, and Anastasia will
Speaker 1: provide her best advice. Our first dilemma comes from Sydney.
Speaker 4: So I'm in my late twenties and I feel like
Speaker 4: every conversation I have with my friends lately is honestly
Speaker 4: such a drainer, because all they ever want to talk
Speaker 4: about is whether or not they're going to buy property,
Speaker 4: whether or not to pro create, or whether or not
Speaker 4: to get married, And honestly, I just don't really care
Speaker 4: about any of those things. But for whatever reason, there's
Speaker 4: still this weird pressure when you get to your late
Speaker 4: twenties where you feel like you're in the paniciars, and
Speaker 4: you do need to make all of these big decisions
Speaker 4: that are going to set you up for like the next.
Speaker 5: Time ten years or more.
Speaker 4: Maybe what can I do to feel like I can
Speaker 4: live the fun life that I want to live, but
Speaker 4: also set myself up the future.
Speaker 5: And not feel stressed about what's around the corner. You
Speaker 5: are not alone in this. I've heard many people share
Speaker 5: similar stories about things that they're worrying about. This idea
Speaker 5: of how do I have the life I want now?
Speaker 5: How do I have the fun that I want now
Speaker 5: and set myself up for the future as well? And
Speaker 5: I wish I could waive the magic wand and give
Speaker 5: a really short, simple solution to this, but unfortunately it's
Speaker 5: not that simple. It's all about balance, right, and as humans,
Speaker 5: we have a tendency to want to find a single
Speaker 5: answer to a problem. But in reality, I don't think
Speaker 5: there is a simple answer here. Life is complex. We
Speaker 5: are complex, and so it's always about how do we
Speaker 5: find balance between the fun and the enjoyment in the
Speaker 5: short term with balancing those long term goals that we
Speaker 5: might have. Now, if you're worried about making decisions that
Speaker 5: you might regret in the future, I'd encourage you to
Speaker 5: reflect on what your values are. So we all have values,
Speaker 5: we might not always be aware of them, so it's
Speaker 5: important to take some time out to actually reflect on
Speaker 5: what our values are. But essentially, values are the things
Speaker 5: that are most important to us in life. We can
Speaker 5: think of them as like a compass, a compass that
Speaker 5: directs us down a particular path in life, and from
Speaker 5: those values we can set goals and tasks and activities
Speaker 5: for ourselves that feel really meaningful and values aligned. The
Speaker 5: research tells us that when people live their life in
Speaker 5: alignment with their values, they have greater overall life satisfaction
Speaker 5: and contentment. So being able to reflect on those values
Speaker 5: can be a really key part of helping us make
Speaker 5: decisions for ourselves. And having that clarity around value can
Speaker 5: help us with making decisions about some of these things
Speaker 5: that feel really big in life. You know, should I
Speaker 5: have kids, should I buy a house, what should I
Speaker 5: be planning for in my thirties, etc. Having a knowledge
Speaker 5: of our values can help us make those decisions that
Speaker 5: can sometimes feel really overwhelming, and also help us reflect
Speaker 5: on are those values my own or I think what
Speaker 5: society has told me, you know, should be important to me,
Speaker 5: because that will influence our decision making as well. Is
Speaker 5: it that society has told me that owning a home,
Speaker 5: or having kids, or being at this point in my
Speaker 5: career should be important to me? Or is that actually
Speaker 5: what my values are?
Speaker 1: I really love it because it's essentially doing your values
Speaker 1: is getting to know yourself even more, which is important And.
Speaker 5: For any of the listeners out there, if you haven't
Speaker 5: ever done this values reflection, have a go, get out
Speaker 5: a pen and a paper, sit down at a desk
Speaker 5: and just write out a list of the things that
Speaker 5: are important to you. Write single words, right, So these
Speaker 5: are things like family, health, adventure, creativity, honesty. Right, So
Speaker 5: there's single words. It's not like I value having a
Speaker 5: coffee in the morning. What is it that the coffee
Speaker 5: in the morning gives me? It's my moment of peace,
Speaker 5: a value piece. I value enjoyment in life, you know,
Speaker 5: what is it that that thing gives me? What's the
Speaker 5: value underneath it? Write them out.
Speaker 1: I really love that process because it's helping us to
Speaker 1: look at, Okay, what are the things that I essentially
Speaker 1: love doing and what are the things that.
Speaker 2: I hate doing?
Speaker 1: And then underneath that is where we'll discover our values.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, And then for any of the listeners who want
Speaker 5: to take it one step further, I'm giving a lot
Speaker 5: of homework here, but reflect on am I actually living
Speaker 5: my life aligned with these values? So, for example, if
Speaker 5: I have the value of creativity, Okay, it's all well
Speaker 5: and good to know that I value creativity, But am
Speaker 5: I doing anything creative in my life? Because having the
Speaker 5: value doesn't necessarily mean that we're living out the value.
Speaker 5: So if you can identify any mismatch, that's a really
Speaker 5: great place where you can make some positive, healthy changes
Speaker 5: for yourself.
Speaker 1: So if we have clarity around our values, would that
Speaker 1: reduce our anxiety?
Speaker 5: It absolutely can. If we know what our values are,
Speaker 5: we feel better equipped to make decisions in life. And
Speaker 5: so often, you know, anxiety can come from that feeling
Speaker 5: of being overwhelmed, like Courtney was, with what she should
Speaker 5: do in life and how she should live life. So
Speaker 5: knowing our values can absolutely help us reduce anxiety and
Speaker 5: feel more kind of satisfaction and contentment in life.
Speaker 2: All right, everyone, let's get into our homework.
Speaker 1: Let's get our values done Atastasia, we have covered a
Speaker 1: lot of ground in today's episode.
Speaker 2: Can you give us a recap?
Speaker 1: We want the post it note on the bathroom mirror reminders, please.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, okay. First up, anxiety serves a necessary function in
Speaker 5: the brain and body. Second, sometimes anxiety can get a
Speaker 5: bit too intense or a situation doesn't warrant us to
Speaker 5: be anxious. Third, if that's the case, we can mentally
Speaker 5: talk ourselves through the situation by challenging those catastrophic thoughts.
Speaker 5: And finally, if it feels too physically overwhelming, soothe yourself
Speaker 5: using the sensors or jump in that cold shower.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Anastasia.
Speaker 1: Guys, Next week we will be tackling the right way
Speaker 1: to say no to people you love and really dig
Speaker 1: into the ways that we can help ourselves deal with
Speaker 1: toxic family dynamics and relationships. In the meantime, if you
Speaker 1: have any burning questions or want to share your story
Speaker 1: with us, please get in contact with us we would
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. There are a few ways
Speaker 1: to get in touch. Follow the links in the show.
Speaker 5: Notes, and remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast
Speaker 5: isn't a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we
Speaker 5: present here should always take into account your personal medical history.
Speaker 5: The executive producer of But Are You Happy is Naima Brown.
Speaker 2: Tarlie Blackman is our senior producer.
Speaker 5: Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 2: I'm a Shany Dante, and I'm.
Speaker 5: Doctor Anatheja Haronus. If this conversation brought up any difficult
Speaker 5: feelings for you, we have links for more resources in
Speaker 5: the show notes around the topics we discussed today. You
Speaker 5: can also reach out to organizations like Beyond Blue or
Speaker 5: Lifeline if you're wanting more immediate support.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.