1 00:00:10,622 --> 00:00:13,382 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mama Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:17,182 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and warders 3 00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:18,822 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:22,942 --> 00:00:23,622 Speaker 3: He as an askar. 5 00:00:24,462 --> 00:00:28,982 Speaker 2: How does this play out in your life? Jesse Ascar, 6 00:00:29,062 --> 00:00:34,902 Speaker 2: and I I'm such a guesser. Hello, and welcome to 7 00:00:34,982 --> 00:00:37,781 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia. Out loud, it's what women are actually talking 8 00:00:37,822 --> 00:00:40,102 Speaker 2: about on Wednesday, the twelfth of February. 9 00:00:40,262 --> 00:00:43,582 Speaker 3: I'm Polly Waynwright, I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens. 10 00:00:43,702 --> 00:00:46,982 Speaker 2: On today's show, Team Mama Bear have come to the 11 00:00:46,982 --> 00:00:49,662 Speaker 2: defense of a woman who burst into an Adelaide school 12 00:00:49,662 --> 00:00:52,982 Speaker 2: classroom and threatened to kill her daughter's bully, and that 13 00:00:53,102 --> 00:00:56,862 Speaker 2: team is very much winning in the court of public opinion. Also, 14 00:00:57,222 --> 00:01:00,102 Speaker 2: did you come from an ask family or a guest family? 15 00:01:00,182 --> 00:01:03,062 Speaker 2: And why? The answer will probably ruin your Valentine's Day? 16 00:01:03,542 --> 00:01:06,941 Speaker 2: And revenge is so hot right now, it's dancing on 17 00:01:06,982 --> 00:01:08,822 Speaker 2: the stage at the Super Bowl and it's dripping from 18 00:01:08,902 --> 00:01:12,222 Speaker 2: Taylor's thigh. Welcome to the Gloves Off Era, but first, 19 00:01:12,382 --> 00:01:13,022 Speaker 2: Jesse Stein. 20 00:01:13,462 --> 00:01:16,222 Speaker 3: In case you missed it, Sam Kerr has been found 21 00:01:16,502 --> 00:01:20,622 Speaker 3: not guilty of racially aggravated harassment by a London Court. 22 00:01:21,222 --> 00:01:23,622 Speaker 3: So Kerr, who is the captain of the Matildas and 23 00:01:23,822 --> 00:01:28,822 Speaker 3: an international football star, was today found not guilty. Here's 24 00:01:29,222 --> 00:01:32,622 Speaker 3: what we know about what actually happened. So in twenty 25 00:01:32,662 --> 00:01:36,662 Speaker 3: twenty three, Kerr and her fiance Kirsty Mules, were on 26 00:01:36,702 --> 00:01:40,581 Speaker 3: their way home after celebrating Kerr's hat trick for Chelsea 27 00:01:40,782 --> 00:01:41,102 Speaker 3: the team. 28 00:01:41,182 --> 00:01:43,542 Speaker 2: She hat trick, sorry, scoring three goals in one game. 29 00:01:43,702 --> 00:01:47,702 Speaker 1: Oh so she's good, but he scored in soccer even 30 00:01:47,742 --> 00:01:48,102 Speaker 1: I know that. 31 00:01:48,182 --> 00:01:50,102 Speaker 3: Yeah, And then she was like I'm going to celebrate 32 00:01:50,182 --> 00:01:53,582 Speaker 3: fair And then Kerr appears to have vomited in the 33 00:01:53,622 --> 00:01:56,382 Speaker 3: taxi or out of the window on the way home, 34 00:01:56,462 --> 00:01:59,302 Speaker 3: and when the taxi driver demanded she pay for the cleaner, 35 00:01:59,462 --> 00:02:03,462 Speaker 3: and altercation ensued. So Kerr says they were then locked 36 00:02:03,502 --> 00:02:06,142 Speaker 3: in the taxi and she and her fiance feared that 37 00:02:06,182 --> 00:02:09,462 Speaker 3: they'd been kidnapped and reported that the cab driver was 38 00:02:09,822 --> 00:02:10,902 Speaker 3: driving erratically. 39 00:02:11,022 --> 00:02:13,142 Speaker 1: So he claims that he was taking them to the 40 00:02:13,181 --> 00:02:13,822 Speaker 1: police station. 41 00:02:14,142 --> 00:02:16,782 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, exactly right, So he took them both to 42 00:02:17,022 --> 00:02:18,302 Speaker 3: a local police station. 43 00:02:18,422 --> 00:02:20,181 Speaker 1: But they were scared. They thought they were being kidnapped. 44 00:02:20,302 --> 00:02:22,222 Speaker 3: Yes, And I think because there's kind of like the 45 00:02:22,302 --> 00:02:25,262 Speaker 3: Perspex thing between them. Sometimes you can't hear what's going on, 46 00:02:26,022 --> 00:02:28,382 Speaker 3: so he could have called the police and they maybe 47 00:02:28,382 --> 00:02:31,022 Speaker 3: didn't hear it. He took them to a local police station, 48 00:02:31,262 --> 00:02:34,781 Speaker 3: where police noticed a broken window and damage to the 49 00:02:34,982 --> 00:02:39,462 Speaker 3: plastic guard that's inside the taxi. Kerr and Mules claimed 50 00:02:39,502 --> 00:02:43,262 Speaker 3: the damage was due to their trying to escape because 51 00:02:43,302 --> 00:02:47,142 Speaker 3: they were scared. They kept referencing Sarah Everett, who was 52 00:02:47,181 --> 00:02:50,462 Speaker 3: a UK woman who was killed. So they say they 53 00:02:50,462 --> 00:02:52,582 Speaker 3: were really scared in that in that instance. 54 00:02:52,262 --> 00:02:54,182 Speaker 1: I think she was killed by a police officer. 55 00:02:54,382 --> 00:02:56,862 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, So they were saying that that's sort of 56 00:02:56,902 --> 00:03:00,222 Speaker 3: where their fear was coming from. And here's the exchange 57 00:03:00,382 --> 00:03:02,262 Speaker 3: between Kerr and the officers. 58 00:03:02,742 --> 00:03:04,462 Speaker 1: Did you stay on the phone long enough to even 59 00:03:04,502 --> 00:03:07,982 Speaker 1: speak someone? That's the thing, okay, but they wouldn't do that. 60 00:03:08,022 --> 00:03:12,782 Speaker 2: Though they wouldn't do that, You should have spoken to the. 61 00:03:15,822 --> 00:03:25,982 Speaker 1: Honestly, you have stupid and white Okay. So I'm going 62 00:03:26,142 --> 00:03:31,422 Speaker 1: over this. This is the world problem. Wait on the call, 63 00:03:31,902 --> 00:03:32,902 Speaker 1: Wait on the call. 64 00:03:33,342 --> 00:03:36,622 Speaker 2: Wait all right, I'll go over at the moment. 65 00:03:36,622 --> 00:03:39,502 Speaker 1: Then at three seventeen, you're under rest of criminal damage 66 00:03:39,542 --> 00:03:42,462 Speaker 1: because there's an allegation that you've smashed that taxi window. 67 00:03:42,662 --> 00:03:45,342 Speaker 4: You're also under rest for racially aggravated public order for 68 00:03:45,382 --> 00:03:46,462 Speaker 4: the comments that you've said. 69 00:03:46,942 --> 00:03:51,022 Speaker 3: The reason So look, it might be worth noting that 70 00:03:51,142 --> 00:03:54,022 Speaker 3: when the police officer says they wouldn't have hung up, 71 00:03:54,022 --> 00:03:55,862 Speaker 3: they actually did. In the court they were able to 72 00:03:55,902 --> 00:03:58,182 Speaker 3: look at what happened, and the police that her called 73 00:03:58,222 --> 00:03:59,982 Speaker 3: were meant to be calling her back. So what she 74 00:04:00,062 --> 00:04:00,822 Speaker 3: was saying was true. 75 00:04:00,902 --> 00:04:02,382 Speaker 1: I can't believe this ever went to court. 76 00:04:02,542 --> 00:04:06,942 Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, because last year when this broke, people were horrified. 77 00:04:06,982 --> 00:04:09,382 Speaker 3: They just heard that this was racially aggravated harassment. And 78 00:04:09,382 --> 00:04:12,102 Speaker 3: we went, this is a captain of the Matildas and 79 00:04:12,102 --> 00:04:15,622 Speaker 3: we were surprised because Sam Kerr has some Indian heritage, 80 00:04:15,982 --> 00:04:18,741 Speaker 3: and so we went what she said, and then pretty 81 00:04:18,741 --> 00:04:21,782 Speaker 3: soon after it came out that she'd called an officer 82 00:04:21,902 --> 00:04:25,782 Speaker 3: effing stupid and white. And then this other conversation popped up, 83 00:04:25,821 --> 00:04:28,981 Speaker 3: which is I didn't think that it was racist to 84 00:04:29,022 --> 00:04:31,582 Speaker 3: call someone white. I thought that racism was about power. 85 00:04:32,061 --> 00:04:35,702 Speaker 3: But in the courts, apparently it doesn't discriminate. You can 86 00:04:35,702 --> 00:04:39,182 Speaker 3: be racist towards, you know, people of any ancestry. That's 87 00:04:39,222 --> 00:04:43,622 Speaker 3: what the law says. She has since apologized for expressing 88 00:04:43,782 --> 00:04:47,502 Speaker 3: herself poorly. But as it stands, the case is over. 89 00:04:47,782 --> 00:04:50,541 Speaker 2: It's ridiculous. I'm just calling it. It's ridiculous. 90 00:04:50,541 --> 00:04:52,462 Speaker 3: And why do you think this did go to court, Holly, 91 00:04:52,501 --> 00:04:54,541 Speaker 3: Because a lot of people are going how did this 92 00:04:54,821 --> 00:04:55,621 Speaker 3: get this farst? 93 00:04:55,621 --> 00:04:58,101 Speaker 2: It seemed to be going to court because one particular 94 00:04:58,142 --> 00:05:01,421 Speaker 2: officer who was in that room clearly pushed it very hard. 95 00:05:01,662 --> 00:05:05,141 Speaker 2: So initially prosecutors thought that this insult had called no 96 00:05:05,262 --> 00:05:07,621 Speaker 2: alarm or distress as they call it, and refused to 97 00:05:07,662 --> 00:05:09,301 Speaker 2: take the case to trial. This is why it's taking 98 00:05:09,301 --> 00:05:12,421 Speaker 2: so right. But then it was pushed very hard by 99 00:05:12,421 --> 00:05:16,382 Speaker 2: the officer involved for whatever reasons can't speculate, but it 100 00:05:16,462 --> 00:05:19,782 Speaker 2: resulted in an eight day trial that has cost UK 101 00:05:19,902 --> 00:05:23,501 Speaker 2: taxpayers hundreds of thousands of pounds to put on to 102 00:05:23,582 --> 00:05:26,862 Speaker 2: get us to this place where Sam Kerr, who I'm 103 00:05:26,861 --> 00:05:29,301 Speaker 2: sure and she said so herself, is not proud of 104 00:05:29,462 --> 00:05:32,261 Speaker 2: what happened that night and it kind of has put 105 00:05:32,262 --> 00:05:35,582 Speaker 2: a smear on her reputation that wasn't there before. Is 106 00:05:35,621 --> 00:05:37,581 Speaker 2: now every time her name's mentioned, this case will be 107 00:05:37,621 --> 00:05:40,262 Speaker 2: mentioned alongside it. And it just seems ridiculous when you 108 00:05:40,301 --> 00:05:42,022 Speaker 2: think about the cases that don't make it to trial. 109 00:05:42,181 --> 00:05:44,262 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know if it will actually, because I 110 00:05:44,342 --> 00:05:47,821 Speaker 1: just think most people, once they learned what the case 111 00:05:47,941 --> 00:05:50,821 Speaker 1: was about, sort of shrugged and moved on. 112 00:05:51,222 --> 00:05:53,141 Speaker 3: You think that. But we have an out louder who 113 00:05:53,262 --> 00:05:55,421 Speaker 3: lives in the UK, and she said she was shocked 114 00:05:55,462 --> 00:05:57,421 Speaker 3: by the coverage and I was even I went on 115 00:05:57,462 --> 00:06:01,462 Speaker 3: Twitter and had a look around. People are furious. There 116 00:06:01,501 --> 00:06:04,861 Speaker 3: is a subcus people who are furious and they're like, oh, 117 00:06:04,941 --> 00:06:06,902 Speaker 3: so you can't be racist against white people, Like it's 118 00:06:06,902 --> 00:06:08,902 Speaker 3: really stirred up a lot of. 119 00:06:09,541 --> 00:06:12,621 Speaker 2: Well, it's just a you know how scandal just sticks 120 00:06:13,022 --> 00:06:14,782 Speaker 2: every time her name's mentioned. It's just that thing. I 121 00:06:14,861 --> 00:06:17,541 Speaker 2: wasn't there that court case, wasn't there with that racism 122 00:06:17,582 --> 00:06:21,942 Speaker 2: thing around her, and it just muddies her reputation. Every 123 00:06:21,981 --> 00:06:25,142 Speaker 2: morning this week, I've woken up with bluebirds singing and 124 00:06:25,222 --> 00:06:27,222 Speaker 2: reached for my drug of choice and look for the 125 00:06:27,222 --> 00:06:30,222 Speaker 2: little treat that I know will brighten my day. Meghan 126 00:06:30,821 --> 00:06:34,181 Speaker 2: Duchess of absent jam and Flowery Ice Cubes is back 127 00:06:34,222 --> 00:06:37,062 Speaker 2: on Instagram and now she's posting stories. 128 00:06:37,501 --> 00:06:39,462 Speaker 3: Tell me about the stories. I only followed her last 129 00:06:39,501 --> 00:06:41,662 Speaker 3: night because I realized it in order for our friendship 130 00:06:41,702 --> 00:06:43,181 Speaker 3: to continue. I needed to follow mates. 131 00:06:43,462 --> 00:06:45,861 Speaker 2: So exciting to me to open my phone and see 132 00:06:45,981 --> 00:06:48,582 Speaker 2: Meghan with the little like red ring around it. 133 00:06:48,741 --> 00:06:52,181 Speaker 1: There's something new she's posting. She like a proper influence. 134 00:06:52,181 --> 00:06:54,541 Speaker 2: It's like a proper influencer. Meghan and that guy she's 135 00:06:54,541 --> 00:06:57,342 Speaker 2: married to. They're at the Invictus Games in Canada right 136 00:06:57,421 --> 00:07:00,621 Speaker 2: and she's been documenting the whole thing, which is a 137 00:07:00,621 --> 00:07:03,262 Speaker 2: big departure because for a long time, ever since the 138 00:07:03,342 --> 00:07:05,702 Speaker 2: ring went on the finger, really, Meghan has not been 139 00:07:05,741 --> 00:07:07,622 Speaker 2: allowed to be on social media, and she's threatened to 140 00:07:07,621 --> 00:07:10,822 Speaker 2: come back several times. Remember when was that infamous New 141 00:07:10,902 --> 00:07:13,862 Speaker 2: York magazine profile where she said, guess what, I'm coming 142 00:07:13,902 --> 00:07:14,702 Speaker 2: back to Instagram. 143 00:07:15,182 --> 00:07:19,542 Speaker 1: On the second she and Harry chose to remove themselves, 144 00:07:19,582 --> 00:07:21,742 Speaker 1: and they did so in a pretty flouncy way where 145 00:07:21,742 --> 00:07:24,862 Speaker 1: they said, we think social media is a terrible thing. 146 00:07:24,982 --> 00:07:27,182 Speaker 1: We are leaving. We are just going to give access 147 00:07:27,582 --> 00:07:31,022 Speaker 1: to these journalists that we choose, which is absolutely their prerogative. 148 00:07:31,022 --> 00:07:32,662 Speaker 1: They're not the first and they won't be the last 149 00:07:32,662 --> 00:07:33,342 Speaker 1: people to do that. 150 00:07:33,342 --> 00:07:34,821 Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying. It's a big departure. 151 00:07:34,902 --> 00:07:37,662 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'm glad it's not that she wasn't allowed to. 152 00:07:38,302 --> 00:07:40,422 Speaker 1: They just made that decision. They haven't been. 153 00:07:40,342 --> 00:07:43,102 Speaker 2: One of the row five years, but while she was royal, 154 00:07:43,142 --> 00:07:43,941 Speaker 2: she wasn't allowed to. 155 00:07:44,062 --> 00:07:44,742 Speaker 1: I understand that. 156 00:07:44,821 --> 00:07:47,462 Speaker 3: But she's also everyone who's deleted Instagram for a week 157 00:07:47,902 --> 00:07:48,342 Speaker 3: on back on. 158 00:07:48,542 --> 00:07:51,222 Speaker 2: But my view on why she's decided to obviously there's 159 00:07:51,262 --> 00:07:53,662 Speaker 2: the very pragmatic fact that in two weeks time her 160 00:07:53,702 --> 00:07:57,542 Speaker 2: new TV show with Love Megan can't wait, it's coming 161 00:07:57,542 --> 00:08:00,381 Speaker 2: out and she needs to build promo. Also, the Invictors Games, 162 00:08:00,582 --> 00:08:04,142 Speaker 2: big big pillar for them, great cause, awesome event that 163 00:08:04,182 --> 00:08:07,821 Speaker 2: Harry invented created. It's kind of like the Olympics, but 164 00:08:07,941 --> 00:08:10,662 Speaker 2: for veterans, injured veterans, and it goes around the world, 165 00:08:10,662 --> 00:08:14,182 Speaker 2: and so it's great. But also I think she's gonna 166 00:08:14,262 --> 00:08:16,941 Speaker 2: let them era. I think she's understood she's never gonna 167 00:08:16,941 --> 00:08:19,022 Speaker 2: win the war of what people are going to say 168 00:08:19,022 --> 00:08:21,141 Speaker 2: about her, and so she just needs to do what 169 00:08:21,182 --> 00:08:23,622 Speaker 2: she wants to do. So she came back posted about 170 00:08:23,622 --> 00:08:26,062 Speaker 2: getting Billie Eilist T shirts for someone who lost everything 171 00:08:26,062 --> 00:08:28,862 Speaker 2: in the fire. Everyone went, that's ridiculous, how self serving? 172 00:08:29,142 --> 00:08:31,182 Speaker 2: And did she take it down, did she go quiet? 173 00:08:31,222 --> 00:08:33,422 Speaker 2: Did she decide not to post anymore. No, she said, 174 00:08:33,502 --> 00:08:34,382 Speaker 2: I'm pushing on. 175 00:08:34,622 --> 00:08:36,782 Speaker 1: Yeah. I actually think this is a really smart move 176 00:08:36,862 --> 00:08:40,542 Speaker 1: strategically because I think one of the problems with people 177 00:08:40,902 --> 00:08:43,462 Speaker 1: who don't speak much in the public eye or who 178 00:08:43,942 --> 00:08:46,022 Speaker 1: you know, Jennifer Anderson had this problem before she got 179 00:08:46,062 --> 00:08:50,342 Speaker 1: on social media. You rely on people interpreting your actions 180 00:08:50,422 --> 00:08:53,782 Speaker 1: and your words, and she's had a few really bad profiles, 181 00:08:53,782 --> 00:08:56,022 Speaker 1: a couple that she participated in, some that were right 182 00:08:56,102 --> 00:08:58,542 Speaker 1: around and if you don't have an outlet to put 183 00:08:58,582 --> 00:09:01,622 Speaker 1: forward your own story in a way that's a lot 184 00:09:01,702 --> 00:09:06,422 Speaker 1: more low key than giving an interview, making a television program, 185 00:09:06,462 --> 00:09:09,902 Speaker 1: making an announcement. I think this is really smart because 186 00:09:09,902 --> 00:09:13,142 Speaker 1: I think it sort of acclimatizes people and it's a 187 00:09:13,142 --> 00:09:14,942 Speaker 1: bit of a flood the zone. It's like, if there's 188 00:09:14,942 --> 00:09:18,222 Speaker 1: just stories of Megan every day, she stops becoming this 189 00:09:18,382 --> 00:09:20,782 Speaker 1: figure and starts to become more human. 190 00:09:21,102 --> 00:09:23,382 Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, I think whatever she posts is just going 191 00:09:23,422 --> 00:09:27,462 Speaker 3: to be interpreted with the most incredible amount of bad faith. 192 00:09:27,782 --> 00:09:29,822 Speaker 3: I think we saw that with the you know, silly 193 00:09:29,822 --> 00:09:32,222 Speaker 3: Billy Eilish video and the way that people perceived that. 194 00:09:32,662 --> 00:09:34,582 Speaker 3: But what I'm finding really funny when I went on 195 00:09:34,662 --> 00:09:37,902 Speaker 3: last night and I see her posting. Is that I've 196 00:09:38,182 --> 00:09:41,142 Speaker 3: become so used to the Instagram behavior of if you're 197 00:09:41,342 --> 00:09:45,142 Speaker 3: posting your holding the phone. But she's got a as 198 00:09:45,182 --> 00:09:48,382 Speaker 3: clearly an assistant or something, and so she appears in 199 00:09:48,422 --> 00:09:52,422 Speaker 3: all of it, which feels very retro like. It does 200 00:09:52,582 --> 00:09:54,542 Speaker 3: feel like she dipped out of Instagram. And then, as 201 00:09:54,582 --> 00:09:59,702 Speaker 3: you've said before me as she's come back with twenty fifteen, fine, because. 202 00:09:59,542 --> 00:10:00,782 Speaker 2: Let's be honest, we want to see her. 203 00:10:00,982 --> 00:10:04,342 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that it's still it's about the 204 00:10:04,382 --> 00:10:07,502 Speaker 1: perception of her versus What I like about social is 205 00:10:07,542 --> 00:10:10,502 Speaker 1: that it's the person's window into the world world, and 206 00:10:10,542 --> 00:10:13,742 Speaker 1: even if that cameras turned back on themselves, it's sort 207 00:10:13,742 --> 00:10:15,862 Speaker 1: of in their control. So look, she is a bit 208 00:10:15,902 --> 00:10:19,222 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen still, but sure she'll, you know, catch up. 209 00:10:20,222 --> 00:10:23,302 Speaker 1: Last week at a strawt, mother entered an Adelaide classroom 210 00:10:23,502 --> 00:10:26,022 Speaker 1: to confront the year eight student that she believes to 211 00:10:26,102 --> 00:10:30,142 Speaker 1: be her daughter's bully. She screamed, she swore, and she 212 00:10:30,262 --> 00:10:32,662 Speaker 1: threatened to slit the throat of the teenager in front 213 00:10:32,702 --> 00:10:35,702 Speaker 1: of other students and their teacher, who tried to remove 214 00:10:35,742 --> 00:10:39,261 Speaker 1: her from the classroom. Now, the incident was captured on 215 00:10:39,382 --> 00:10:42,422 Speaker 1: video by one of those students who witnessed it, and 216 00:10:42,462 --> 00:10:45,942 Speaker 1: it went viral after being obtained by seven YEWS. Here's 217 00:10:45,982 --> 00:11:09,862 Speaker 1: a little bit of that video. Yeah, it's very hard 218 00:11:09,862 --> 00:11:11,822 Speaker 1: to listen to that. It was hard to watch it, 219 00:11:11,862 --> 00:11:15,782 Speaker 1: but I found myself really sympathizing with that woman. I 220 00:11:15,822 --> 00:11:17,822 Speaker 1: just want to get a little bit of her perspective, 221 00:11:18,542 --> 00:11:21,302 Speaker 1: because she was approached afterwards by Channel seven to comment 222 00:11:21,382 --> 00:11:24,142 Speaker 1: on her behavior, and she acknowledged that it had crossed 223 00:11:24,142 --> 00:11:26,942 Speaker 1: the line, but explained that it was a breaking point. 224 00:11:27,062 --> 00:11:28,142 Speaker 1: Here is what she said. 225 00:11:28,422 --> 00:11:31,862 Speaker 4: I don't want my daughter to be another statistic. I 226 00:11:31,902 --> 00:11:35,302 Speaker 4: don't want to have to bury my child. She was crying. 227 00:11:35,382 --> 00:11:37,862 Speaker 4: She was devastated that this child had told her to 228 00:11:37,862 --> 00:11:40,542 Speaker 4: go and hang herself. I did everything in my power 229 00:11:40,582 --> 00:11:43,262 Speaker 4: as a parent, and so did my husband to make 230 00:11:43,302 --> 00:11:45,742 Speaker 4: sure that our daughter was safe. I have stayed at 231 00:11:45,742 --> 00:11:48,022 Speaker 4: time and time again to the school. We are begging, 232 00:11:48,062 --> 00:11:52,382 Speaker 4: We begged for help, we begged. What everybody has seen 233 00:11:52,422 --> 00:11:55,222 Speaker 4: of me is not who I am as a mother 234 00:11:55,822 --> 00:11:56,622 Speaker 4: or as a person. 235 00:11:56,862 --> 00:11:58,702 Speaker 1: I thought it was really important to play both of 236 00:11:58,742 --> 00:12:02,022 Speaker 1: those because if you just saw the first one, you 237 00:12:02,102 --> 00:12:04,462 Speaker 1: might take a certain view and it would be easy too, 238 00:12:04,702 --> 00:12:06,902 Speaker 1: that she was unhinged, that she was crazy, that she 239 00:12:06,982 --> 00:12:10,862 Speaker 1: might have been a particular type of perer. When you 240 00:12:10,942 --> 00:12:13,462 Speaker 1: hear her the second time, you can hear the fear, 241 00:12:13,542 --> 00:12:16,702 Speaker 1: the anguish, the distress in her voice. Now, the public 242 00:12:16,742 --> 00:12:19,982 Speaker 1: response has been mixed. Some, including the South Australian premiere 243 00:12:20,062 --> 00:12:24,582 Speaker 1: Pete Malinowskis, have condemned the mother and South Australian Police 244 00:12:24,662 --> 00:12:27,542 Speaker 1: are now investigating the incident, but others have come out 245 00:12:27,582 --> 00:12:30,222 Speaker 1: in support with sentiment kind of along the lines of 246 00:12:30,302 --> 00:12:34,142 Speaker 1: I'd rather attend court than my child's funeral. Now, this 247 00:12:34,302 --> 00:12:36,982 Speaker 1: is obviously a hugely emotional issue and one that so 248 00:12:37,062 --> 00:12:40,102 Speaker 1: many people will relate to in different ways as parents 249 00:12:40,742 --> 00:12:43,342 Speaker 1: and as people who were bullied as kids, and also 250 00:12:43,422 --> 00:12:45,862 Speaker 1: as educators who are being expected to deal with these 251 00:12:45,902 --> 00:12:49,702 Speaker 1: kinds of issues around bullying all the time thanks to 252 00:12:49,782 --> 00:12:52,862 Speaker 1: technology which has really changed things and the fact that 253 00:12:52,982 --> 00:12:55,142 Speaker 1: bullying is no longer just something that happens in and 254 00:12:55,182 --> 00:12:55,902 Speaker 1: around school. 255 00:12:56,422 --> 00:12:59,102 Speaker 3: Yeah, so, you know, my whole family are teachers, and 256 00:12:59,342 --> 00:13:02,302 Speaker 3: my mum has got to work on a Monday and 257 00:13:02,382 --> 00:13:06,622 Speaker 3: had a parent show up with multiple pages printed out 258 00:13:06,662 --> 00:13:10,502 Speaker 3: of a conversation that occurred over the weekend between their 259 00:13:10,582 --> 00:13:15,382 Speaker 3: child and a bully and said, deal with that. And teachers, 260 00:13:15,782 --> 00:13:18,502 Speaker 3: you know, they then have to go and teach their class, 261 00:13:18,542 --> 00:13:21,622 Speaker 3: and they also have classes with thirty kids in them. 262 00:13:21,742 --> 00:13:26,942 Speaker 3: And I think what I'm finding really difficult watching this 263 00:13:27,022 --> 00:13:29,942 Speaker 3: conversation unfold is that a lot of the sentiment is 264 00:13:30,142 --> 00:13:32,862 Speaker 3: schools need to do something, governments need to do something, 265 00:13:33,342 --> 00:13:36,622 Speaker 3: teachers need to do something, as though they're not already, 266 00:13:36,622 --> 00:13:40,862 Speaker 3: and that simply isn't true. Schools have never had more 267 00:13:40,902 --> 00:13:45,782 Speaker 3: of a focus on student welfare, on pastoral care, on 268 00:13:45,902 --> 00:13:50,702 Speaker 3: having strategies, of having school counselors, of having psychologists, of 269 00:13:50,822 --> 00:13:54,822 Speaker 3: having people from headspace or people come in and speak 270 00:13:54,822 --> 00:13:57,622 Speaker 3: to them. Like to suggest that schools aren't trying, I 271 00:13:57,662 --> 00:13:59,381 Speaker 3: think is totally incorrect. 272 00:13:59,502 --> 00:14:02,381 Speaker 1: Can you appreciate that mother's anguish that the schools have 273 00:14:02,502 --> 00:14:05,422 Speaker 1: perhaps done everything they can and she said, this has 274 00:14:05,422 --> 00:14:08,302 Speaker 1: been happening for over a year, her daughter is self harming. 275 00:14:09,662 --> 00:14:12,222 Speaker 3: Relate, Yeah, And hearing the pain in her voice, I 276 00:14:12,262 --> 00:14:16,382 Speaker 3: felt empathy. I think that there is an instinct to 277 00:14:16,422 --> 00:14:20,862 Speaker 3: protect that I do empathize with. I don't accept the 278 00:14:20,902 --> 00:14:23,862 Speaker 3: binary that you have two choices. One is to go 279 00:14:23,902 --> 00:14:25,942 Speaker 3: into the classroom, and the other is to attend your 280 00:14:25,982 --> 00:14:29,542 Speaker 3: child's funeral. I think drawing a straight line between bullying 281 00:14:29,862 --> 00:14:34,462 Speaker 3: and ending someone's life is really dangerous and incorrect. Bullying 282 00:14:34,702 --> 00:14:37,902 Speaker 3: is rampant. Of course, it impacts mental health, and there 283 00:14:37,942 --> 00:14:40,902 Speaker 3: have been cases in Australia of kids who have died 284 00:14:40,942 --> 00:14:45,582 Speaker 3: after really awful bullying. That is totally a thing, But 285 00:14:45,942 --> 00:14:49,542 Speaker 3: when someone takes their life, there are multiple, multiple factors 286 00:14:49,822 --> 00:14:53,822 Speaker 3: that come at play, and to suggest that. 287 00:14:52,902 --> 00:14:55,382 Speaker 1: That puts it's every parent's fear, that's what it is. 288 00:14:55,702 --> 00:14:58,142 Speaker 3: But it makes parents more scared to suggest that if 289 00:14:58,142 --> 00:15:01,462 Speaker 3: your child is being bullied at home, then careful because 290 00:15:01,462 --> 00:15:02,902 Speaker 3: this is how it's going to end, and not a 291 00:15:02,982 --> 00:15:03,702 Speaker 3: most it won't. 292 00:15:03,902 --> 00:15:07,422 Speaker 2: I think that's why most parents can empathize with her 293 00:15:07,742 --> 00:15:10,262 Speaker 2: is because we are all parenting from a place of 294 00:15:10,262 --> 00:15:12,822 Speaker 2: fear of worst case scenario looming in our heads. Because 295 00:15:12,822 --> 00:15:17,062 Speaker 2: it's reported often right, we hear these terrible stories and 296 00:15:17,582 --> 00:15:20,542 Speaker 2: if you have teenagers, the things they say to each 297 00:15:20,542 --> 00:15:24,022 Speaker 2: other on the internet are quite shocking, like they really 298 00:15:24,062 --> 00:15:28,182 Speaker 2: really are. And this is a really complicated issue, as 299 00:15:28,222 --> 00:15:30,222 Speaker 2: you've said, Jesse, because the thing that I'm a little 300 00:15:30,342 --> 00:15:32,902 Speaker 2: of course I understand and empathize with this woman. I 301 00:15:32,982 --> 00:15:36,462 Speaker 2: really do Team Mama Bear, as they're calling themselves, who 302 00:15:36,542 --> 00:15:38,942 Speaker 2: is saying, I totally get it. I back her. It's 303 00:15:39,222 --> 00:15:42,142 Speaker 2: absolutely understandable in your bones if you're a parent. I 304 00:15:42,182 --> 00:15:44,262 Speaker 2: remember the first time I felt it. I was in 305 00:15:44,262 --> 00:15:46,902 Speaker 2: a playground. My daughter would have been eighteen months and 306 00:15:46,942 --> 00:15:48,862 Speaker 2: a little kid the same age just came over and 307 00:15:48,862 --> 00:15:51,782 Speaker 2: pushed her over. Now, I remember feeling for the first 308 00:15:51,782 --> 00:15:54,622 Speaker 2: time that, like rush of protector, I wanted to push 309 00:15:54,662 --> 00:15:56,902 Speaker 2: that kid over. I wanted to push them on the floor, 310 00:15:57,342 --> 00:16:00,142 Speaker 2: and I had to stop myself from doing it because 311 00:16:00,182 --> 00:16:02,782 Speaker 2: I am an adult who has to learn that you 312 00:16:02,822 --> 00:16:06,822 Speaker 2: don't meet violence with violence, and that that's not gonna help. Right. So, 313 00:16:06,902 --> 00:16:10,662 Speaker 2: although I entirely understand that woman's end life less distress 314 00:16:10,662 --> 00:16:14,182 Speaker 2: and frustration, I think that Team Mama Bear leads us 315 00:16:14,182 --> 00:16:16,062 Speaker 2: to a dangerous place. It leads us to a place 316 00:16:16,062 --> 00:16:18,662 Speaker 2: where it's fine to burst into a classroom and threaten 317 00:16:19,102 --> 00:16:22,502 Speaker 2: violent murder in front of a whole room full of 318 00:16:22,622 --> 00:16:25,502 Speaker 2: children and a teacher who has to somehow deal with 319 00:16:25,542 --> 00:16:28,102 Speaker 2: that and then regroup afterwards. It leads us to parents 320 00:16:28,142 --> 00:16:30,182 Speaker 2: who fight on the sidelines at sport. It leads us 321 00:16:30,222 --> 00:16:33,142 Speaker 2: to all kinds of places. So although I have a 322 00:16:33,222 --> 00:16:36,862 Speaker 2: lot of empathy for her, and I've seen similar situations 323 00:16:37,022 --> 00:16:40,462 Speaker 2: play out in my life, I think it's dangerous to 324 00:16:40,542 --> 00:16:41,302 Speaker 2: valorize it. 325 00:16:41,382 --> 00:16:44,142 Speaker 3: I really it has become more commonplace too, having parents 326 00:16:44,142 --> 00:16:45,622 Speaker 3: burst into the playground. 327 00:16:45,662 --> 00:16:49,222 Speaker 1: It's happened at the school that a friend of mine's 328 00:16:49,422 --> 00:16:53,582 Speaker 1: child attends, and a mother came in and actually pushed 329 00:16:53,622 --> 00:16:57,582 Speaker 1: over another child who she accused of bullying her child. 330 00:16:57,622 --> 00:17:00,782 Speaker 2: And often it's really complicated because and I'm not talking 331 00:17:00,822 --> 00:17:04,542 Speaker 2: about this instance, which sounds horrendous, but often when you 332 00:17:04,622 --> 00:17:06,302 Speaker 2: trace back, well, what did you say to them? And 333 00:17:06,302 --> 00:17:09,101 Speaker 2: how's this escalated? And are you completely like it's not 334 00:17:09,302 --> 00:17:12,181 Speaker 2: offen that black and white? Sometimes it is. Sometimes it 335 00:17:12,222 --> 00:17:17,262 Speaker 2: absolutely is. And as parents, we are programmed obviously to 336 00:17:17,661 --> 00:17:21,542 Speaker 2: believe and empathize and support our kids, and that's our job, right, 337 00:17:22,061 --> 00:17:24,782 Speaker 2: But it's often much more complicated, and that's often what 338 00:17:24,782 --> 00:17:26,101 Speaker 2: schools and teachers have to try it on. 339 00:17:26,502 --> 00:17:29,421 Speaker 3: Yeah, and then schools and teachers and not only protecting 340 00:17:29,462 --> 00:17:33,782 Speaker 3: students against other students, but students against parents. Like that's 341 00:17:33,821 --> 00:17:37,461 Speaker 3: a total power imbalance too, that just isn't fir feah. 342 00:17:37,222 --> 00:17:40,981 Speaker 1: And different kids have different levels of resilience at different 343 00:17:41,022 --> 00:17:43,622 Speaker 1: times in their life, depending on what's going on and 344 00:17:44,341 --> 00:17:48,061 Speaker 1: for them, you know, I have another friend who discovered 345 00:17:48,061 --> 00:17:52,422 Speaker 1: that her child was involved in something and people were 346 00:17:52,462 --> 00:17:56,581 Speaker 1: sending their messages and among them were like, kill yourself, 347 00:17:56,661 --> 00:17:59,782 Speaker 1: kill yourself. And she was so shocked and her child 348 00:17:59,861 --> 00:18:02,661 Speaker 1: was like, Oh no, that's just what people say, Like, 349 00:18:02,742 --> 00:18:04,182 Speaker 1: that's just what people says. 350 00:18:04,262 --> 00:18:07,341 Speaker 2: Frendous all this to say, you know, there's a discussion 351 00:18:07,341 --> 00:18:09,222 Speaker 2: being going on in the Facebook out loud as group 352 00:18:09,302 --> 00:18:12,502 Speaker 2: about this, and there are some absolutely heartbreaking stories about 353 00:18:12,542 --> 00:18:14,542 Speaker 2: bullying and the results of bullying and having to take 354 00:18:14,621 --> 00:18:17,581 Speaker 2: kids out of school and the mental health implications. And 355 00:18:17,621 --> 00:18:20,302 Speaker 2: then there are also stories in there from parents whose 356 00:18:20,341 --> 00:18:22,661 Speaker 2: kids have been accused of bullying and what's that's done. So, 357 00:18:23,302 --> 00:18:27,061 Speaker 2: like almost everything, it's a really complicated issue. And I 358 00:18:27,101 --> 00:18:29,542 Speaker 2: am a little bit worried about celebrating this woman as 359 00:18:29,581 --> 00:18:30,302 Speaker 2: a I. 360 00:18:30,262 --> 00:18:32,182 Speaker 1: Don't think you need to celebrate her as a hero, 361 00:18:32,942 --> 00:18:35,741 Speaker 1: but you can still say I can empathize with you. 362 00:18:35,782 --> 00:18:38,381 Speaker 1: She's not celebrating herself as a hero. She's saying she 363 00:18:38,462 --> 00:18:39,741 Speaker 1: sounds proud of what I did. 364 00:18:39,782 --> 00:18:42,581 Speaker 3: Stress She's like, you know what I think, wish. 365 00:18:42,381 --> 00:18:44,341 Speaker 1: I hadn't had to do that, and I'm not proud. 366 00:18:44,101 --> 00:18:47,341 Speaker 3: Of me because that leads and valorizing that video, putting 367 00:18:47,381 --> 00:18:49,742 Speaker 3: her to the side is the response that I think 368 00:18:49,782 --> 00:18:52,181 Speaker 3: has made a few people scared because teachers are bracing 369 00:18:52,182 --> 00:18:54,341 Speaker 3: themselves going on next week? Is it just going to 370 00:18:54,381 --> 00:18:58,302 Speaker 3: be parent on parents shout out to teachers. That's total anarchy. 371 00:18:58,702 --> 00:19:00,502 Speaker 3: But I looked at this and went, what should she 372 00:19:00,542 --> 00:19:03,981 Speaker 3: have done? So she did try the school, and I 373 00:19:04,022 --> 00:19:06,581 Speaker 3: think that there's a question there about you know, I 374 00:19:06,581 --> 00:19:08,502 Speaker 3: saw a video and it was a woman going the 375 00:19:08,542 --> 00:19:10,262 Speaker 3: government needs to do more, All the schools need to 376 00:19:10,302 --> 00:19:10,782 Speaker 3: do more. 377 00:19:10,661 --> 00:19:15,542 Speaker 1: There are exact there's comprehensive laws around bullying, combining federal 378 00:19:15,542 --> 00:19:18,861 Speaker 1: and state laws with school based policies and interventions. But 379 00:19:19,262 --> 00:19:21,302 Speaker 1: as Holly said, a lot of this stuff is not 380 00:19:21,462 --> 00:19:24,222 Speaker 1: black and white, like if you punch another kid or 381 00:19:24,262 --> 00:19:27,222 Speaker 1: if you steal something that is pretty cut and dry, 382 00:19:27,581 --> 00:19:31,542 Speaker 1: but bullying, there are false accusations, there's context. 383 00:19:31,022 --> 00:19:32,422 Speaker 3: In now chats that disappear. 384 00:19:32,542 --> 00:19:35,502 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, there's a burden of proof all of these things. 385 00:19:35,542 --> 00:19:36,742 Speaker 1: There's stuff that happens. 386 00:19:36,462 --> 00:19:39,581 Speaker 3: Outside school ours challenging and I don't know if she 387 00:19:39,581 --> 00:19:41,222 Speaker 3: did this, she might have already done this. I think 388 00:19:41,262 --> 00:19:43,581 Speaker 3: she should have called the parents of the bully. I 389 00:19:43,621 --> 00:19:45,701 Speaker 3: reckon that that's the next step. That's the in between, 390 00:19:45,942 --> 00:19:48,022 Speaker 3: is that if you feel like the school isn't doing enough, 391 00:19:48,422 --> 00:19:52,141 Speaker 3: rather than approaching the bully, who I'm going to assume 392 00:19:52,182 --> 00:19:56,182 Speaker 3: has their own stuff going on, because that's horrendous, inexcusable behavior, 393 00:19:56,742 --> 00:19:57,742 Speaker 3: speaking to the parent. 394 00:19:58,462 --> 00:20:01,222 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think schools mostly discourage that, but I agree 395 00:20:01,262 --> 00:20:04,662 Speaker 1: that's probably better. And if this is an issue that's 396 00:20:04,782 --> 00:20:07,061 Speaker 1: prevalent in your life, we will put links in the 397 00:20:07,101 --> 00:20:09,621 Speaker 1: show notes to some support services. 398 00:20:09,942 --> 00:20:12,661 Speaker 2: In a moment. The difference between asking and guessing and 399 00:20:12,661 --> 00:20:14,702 Speaker 2: why it's probably the reason you're fighting with whoever you're 400 00:20:14,742 --> 00:20:20,742 Speaker 2: fighting with right now. Picture this, friends, Your best friend 401 00:20:20,861 --> 00:20:24,142 Speaker 2: is planning you a birthday dinner. They ask you where 402 00:20:24,182 --> 00:20:27,101 Speaker 2: do you want to go? And you say, I don't 403 00:20:27,101 --> 00:20:30,141 Speaker 2: really mind, safe in the knowledge that your best friend, 404 00:20:30,182 --> 00:20:32,782 Speaker 2: who knows you, will remember that time that you recently 405 00:20:32,821 --> 00:20:35,741 Speaker 2: said I'd love to try that bite and sip place. 406 00:20:36,182 --> 00:20:39,661 Speaker 2: But you say you choose. Your friend though, thinks that 407 00:20:39,742 --> 00:20:42,981 Speaker 2: when you say you don't mind, you mean you don't mind, 408 00:20:43,702 --> 00:20:46,662 Speaker 2: So they choose a completely different restaurant that you went 409 00:20:46,702 --> 00:20:49,581 Speaker 2: to once and thought it was mid and you're sad 410 00:20:49,661 --> 00:20:51,942 Speaker 2: and a little bit heard about it. If this is you, 411 00:20:52,141 --> 00:20:54,981 Speaker 2: the likelihood is you grew up in a guess house 412 00:20:55,661 --> 00:20:58,741 Speaker 2: and they grew up in an ask house. Once you 413 00:20:58,821 --> 00:21:02,742 Speaker 2: understand this difference about askers and guessers, it's going to 414 00:21:02,782 --> 00:21:05,341 Speaker 2: make sense of a lot of things. Right Like that 415 00:21:05,462 --> 00:21:07,981 Speaker 2: time you thought you made a strong suggestion that that 416 00:21:08,141 --> 00:21:11,261 Speaker 2: junior at work should start wearing shoes to meetings, but 417 00:21:11,381 --> 00:21:15,382 Speaker 2: they just keep on turning up barefoot. You're probably a guesser, 418 00:21:15,782 --> 00:21:18,581 Speaker 2: and she probably thinks that if it was essential, you 419 00:21:18,621 --> 00:21:21,461 Speaker 2: would have asked her directly to put her fucking shoes on. 420 00:21:23,061 --> 00:21:27,502 Speaker 2: In ask culture, individuals are encouraged to openly request what 421 00:21:27,542 --> 00:21:30,941 Speaker 2: they want, regardless of how unreasonable it might seem. Sometimes 422 00:21:31,141 --> 00:21:33,661 Speaker 2: take care of their own needs and expect others to 423 00:21:33,702 --> 00:21:36,902 Speaker 2: take care of their needs, make requests even if there's 424 00:21:36,942 --> 00:21:41,341 Speaker 2: a high likelihood of refusal, and to expect direct answers 425 00:21:41,381 --> 00:21:45,702 Speaker 2: with yes meaning yes and no meaning no seems reasonables. 426 00:21:44,982 --> 00:21:46,941 Speaker 3: Like a child yes, marriage counselor. 427 00:21:47,262 --> 00:21:52,942 Speaker 2: Whereas guess culture, individuals avoid making requests unless they're fairly 428 00:21:53,022 --> 00:21:56,461 Speaker 2: certain of a positive response yes. There's an emphasis on 429 00:21:56,581 --> 00:22:01,982 Speaker 2: reading contextual cues and shared expectations, right, thinking, well, they're 430 00:22:01,982 --> 00:22:04,221 Speaker 2: going to get the vibe of what I'm saying. 431 00:22:04,302 --> 00:22:05,581 Speaker 1: I'm just going to drop some hints. 432 00:22:05,661 --> 00:22:05,781 Speaker 2: Yes. 433 00:22:05,901 --> 00:22:06,141 Speaker 4: Yeah. 434 00:22:06,222 --> 00:22:09,061 Speaker 2: People try to minimize who are a guesser, try to 435 00:22:09,101 --> 00:22:13,542 Speaker 2: minimize the risk of rejection or causing discomfort, and requests 436 00:22:13,661 --> 00:22:17,421 Speaker 2: are often made indirectly with the hope that others will 437 00:22:17,462 --> 00:22:20,262 Speaker 2: offer without being explicitly as. 438 00:22:20,381 --> 00:22:25,782 Speaker 3: I love this, okay, mind, he as an asker. 439 00:22:26,581 --> 00:22:28,782 Speaker 2: How does this play out in your life? Jesse? He 440 00:22:28,901 --> 00:22:32,502 Speaker 2: is an asker and Oscar and I I am such 441 00:22:32,542 --> 00:22:33,061 Speaker 2: a guesser. 442 00:22:33,702 --> 00:22:35,742 Speaker 3: This is okay? 443 00:22:36,101 --> 00:22:40,542 Speaker 1: Yes, And I believe some of my children are askers, 444 00:22:40,581 --> 00:22:42,901 Speaker 1: some of them are guesses. I would say yes. 445 00:22:42,942 --> 00:22:45,621 Speaker 3: So this is the central tension of my marriage, in 446 00:22:45,782 --> 00:22:48,981 Speaker 3: that I'm a guesser and Luca is an asker, and 447 00:22:49,061 --> 00:22:51,742 Speaker 3: I have to say to him I think some asks 448 00:22:51,901 --> 00:22:55,222 Speaker 3: are unreasonable, and he doesn't think there's any such thing 449 00:22:55,222 --> 00:22:58,382 Speaker 3: as an unreasonable ask because he thinks it's your job 450 00:22:58,422 --> 00:22:58,902 Speaker 3: to say. 451 00:22:58,742 --> 00:23:00,941 Speaker 1: No, yes, oh, yes. An example. 452 00:23:00,982 --> 00:23:02,821 Speaker 3: So this isn't a lucer example. This is a friend 453 00:23:02,821 --> 00:23:06,101 Speaker 3: of mine. It isn't Luca. A friend of mine has 454 00:23:06,141 --> 00:23:09,502 Speaker 3: his mum helping with childcare and his mum shows up 455 00:23:10,061 --> 00:23:13,101 Speaker 3: and he says, while you're here, can you make my bed? 456 00:23:14,422 --> 00:23:18,621 Speaker 3: That to me is an unreasonable request that is loaded 457 00:23:19,341 --> 00:23:24,262 Speaker 3: with disrespect. He thinks it's on her to say no. 458 00:23:25,782 --> 00:23:28,702 Speaker 3: I also there was a really good example of that 459 00:23:28,821 --> 00:23:32,742 Speaker 3: about moving right at your moving house, an asker will 460 00:23:32,821 --> 00:23:34,662 Speaker 3: say to all their friends. 461 00:23:34,542 --> 00:23:35,181 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what. 462 00:23:35,222 --> 00:23:37,141 Speaker 3: An asker will do, put it up as an Instagram 463 00:23:37,222 --> 00:23:40,782 Speaker 3: story and say, can anyone help me this weekend? I'm 464 00:23:40,821 --> 00:23:44,421 Speaker 3: moving I need some help. I'm horrified by that. What 465 00:23:44,462 --> 00:23:47,581 Speaker 3: I would do is go mea, what are you doing 466 00:23:47,621 --> 00:23:51,981 Speaker 3: on Saturday? And then you might say, ah, I'm busy, 467 00:23:52,061 --> 00:23:53,502 Speaker 3: and I go great. I won't ask ma'am, and then 468 00:23:53,542 --> 00:23:56,022 Speaker 3: I'll go Holly, what are you up to this weekend? 469 00:23:56,101 --> 00:23:57,861 Speaker 2: Nolan, I'm moving house? 470 00:23:58,022 --> 00:24:01,421 Speaker 3: Mouse terrible, that's all shop, and then it's a whole conversation. 471 00:24:01,502 --> 00:24:04,061 Speaker 3: I'll probably ask Holly three questions between that, and I 472 00:24:04,182 --> 00:24:06,421 Speaker 3: might even wait for Holly to offer. 473 00:24:06,502 --> 00:24:09,782 Speaker 2: Definitely, because I am a sign, I don't think there's 474 00:24:09,782 --> 00:24:11,222 Speaker 2: a like, a better or worse in this. 475 00:24:11,422 --> 00:24:12,422 Speaker 3: I do guesses are better? 476 00:24:12,542 --> 00:24:14,141 Speaker 2: Well, No, I don't know, because I think guess is 477 00:24:14,141 --> 00:24:16,742 Speaker 2: a passive aggressive I think guesses are perpetually frustrated. 478 00:24:16,861 --> 00:24:17,782 Speaker 1: Yeah, and disappointed. 479 00:24:17,821 --> 00:24:21,421 Speaker 2: But also, and I am a guesser, definitely, I'm a guesser. 480 00:24:21,502 --> 00:24:23,941 Speaker 2: I am very much they'll get the vibe, right, yeah, 481 00:24:23,942 --> 00:24:25,742 Speaker 2: But the problem with that is lots of people don't 482 00:24:25,742 --> 00:24:28,542 Speaker 2: get the vibe. A lot of neurodiverse people are certainly 483 00:24:28,542 --> 00:24:30,302 Speaker 2: not going to get the vibe. They need to be 484 00:24:30,381 --> 00:24:33,981 Speaker 2: told and asked and had things spelled out leaderboards. Yes, request. 485 00:24:34,061 --> 00:24:36,421 Speaker 2: But also, like the thing about guesses, and again I 486 00:24:36,462 --> 00:24:38,542 Speaker 2: am one, is that we are a bit passive aggressive 487 00:24:38,542 --> 00:24:43,022 Speaker 2: because we might go I'm moving on Saturday, and then 488 00:24:43,061 --> 00:24:46,262 Speaker 2: nobody says anything, and then we're really offended when no 489 00:24:46,302 --> 00:24:49,342 Speaker 2: one helps us move, Whereas like the askers were like, well, 490 00:24:49,381 --> 00:24:51,621 Speaker 2: you didn't ask me, so I didn't know that you 491 00:24:51,661 --> 00:24:52,581 Speaker 2: wanted me to help you. 492 00:24:52,661 --> 00:24:52,701 Speaker 3: Do. 493 00:24:52,782 --> 00:24:55,181 Speaker 1: You know what's so annoying? Now I understand you a 494 00:24:55,182 --> 00:24:57,581 Speaker 1: bit better, Jesse, because I just assumed how long have 495 00:24:57,621 --> 00:25:01,461 Speaker 1: I known you? We are related? Yeah, And to me, 496 00:25:01,782 --> 00:25:04,101 Speaker 1: it's a sign of intimacy when people can ask you 497 00:25:04,222 --> 00:25:07,302 Speaker 1: things like I just assumed we would eventually get to 498 00:25:07,341 --> 00:25:09,462 Speaker 1: the spot where you'd be like, hey, can I drop 499 00:25:09,742 --> 00:25:10,542 Speaker 1: or over to your house? 500 00:25:10,782 --> 00:25:13,662 Speaker 3: But still it makes me feel physically sick. 501 00:25:13,901 --> 00:25:16,422 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a sign of intimacy instead of just. 502 00:25:18,302 --> 00:25:20,182 Speaker 2: It's all about the how she grew up in Oh, 503 00:25:20,341 --> 00:25:22,141 Speaker 2: it's all about the family you're from and whether they 504 00:25:22,141 --> 00:25:25,341 Speaker 2: were askers or guesses in general, like most things in life. 505 00:25:25,502 --> 00:25:27,102 Speaker 2: But it's interesting to parents. 506 00:25:26,982 --> 00:25:29,581 Speaker 1: What I know of your mother's your mother? Your mother? 507 00:25:29,621 --> 00:25:31,861 Speaker 1: I know. Well, they're very direct, but. 508 00:25:31,861 --> 00:25:35,581 Speaker 2: They're only directed in certain situations their opinions, do you 509 00:25:35,661 --> 00:25:37,862 Speaker 2: know what I mean, Like the directing opinions like those 510 00:25:37,901 --> 00:25:41,621 Speaker 2: pants aren't great, but they're not direct in asking for 511 00:25:41,782 --> 00:25:45,821 Speaker 2: things or advocating for themselves directly, like that is something they're. 512 00:25:45,621 --> 00:25:48,661 Speaker 1: Really bad in fact advocators. 513 00:25:49,262 --> 00:25:51,902 Speaker 2: In fact, I watch it happen with my parents' old age, 514 00:25:51,901 --> 00:25:54,061 Speaker 2: and I wish they were more askers because they're not like, 515 00:25:54,262 --> 00:25:57,022 Speaker 2: well the doctor would tell me right if there was something, yes, 516 00:25:57,061 --> 00:25:58,222 Speaker 2: you know what I mean, they weren't asking. 517 00:25:58,302 --> 00:26:01,661 Speaker 3: I'm very frustrating with even like say a hospital or 518 00:26:01,702 --> 00:26:04,582 Speaker 3: you're dealing with a service, and my thing is always 519 00:26:04,661 --> 00:26:07,341 Speaker 3: like I'm just this little person who's like I'm like 520 00:26:07,381 --> 00:26:10,141 Speaker 3: the mckernicle and called me back about when ready, and 521 00:26:10,262 --> 00:26:12,902 Speaker 3: Luca's very busy. If Luca's already on the phone going. 522 00:26:12,942 --> 00:26:14,502 Speaker 3: You said the car would be back today. Will it 523 00:26:14,502 --> 00:26:14,982 Speaker 3: be back today? 524 00:26:15,022 --> 00:26:17,462 Speaker 1: Oh? Wait to hit Perry. That will help you become 525 00:26:17,502 --> 00:26:20,461 Speaker 1: an asker. Do you know what's interesting is that askers 526 00:26:20,661 --> 00:26:22,701 Speaker 1: believe that it's on other people to say no to 527 00:26:22,782 --> 00:26:26,941 Speaker 1: their requests. Askers don't tend to like hearing no. I 528 00:26:27,022 --> 00:26:29,861 Speaker 1: know this because when one of my parents asked me 529 00:26:29,942 --> 00:26:32,381 Speaker 1: to do a thing which I thought was unreasonable that 530 00:26:32,502 --> 00:26:37,262 Speaker 1: involved their dog and I said no, they got very angry. 531 00:26:37,381 --> 00:26:37,741 Speaker 2: See. 532 00:26:37,821 --> 00:26:41,621 Speaker 3: I think some askers are very comfortable with no. Like Luca. 533 00:26:42,182 --> 00:26:45,782 Speaker 3: He doesn't have an emotional response to the no. He 534 00:26:45,861 --> 00:26:49,381 Speaker 3: just thinks you advocate your clear. It's something I really 535 00:26:49,621 --> 00:26:52,422 Speaker 3: admire about him because it makes life a lot simpler. 536 00:26:52,462 --> 00:26:55,502 Speaker 1: But he's the guy that sends people lists of what 537 00:26:55,542 --> 00:26:58,341 Speaker 1: he wants for his birthday. Yeah, and it is so helpful. 538 00:26:58,381 --> 00:27:01,101 Speaker 2: The thing with being a guesser and Valentine's Day, which 539 00:27:01,101 --> 00:27:03,621 Speaker 2: is on Friday, is a good example, is that we're like, 540 00:27:03,821 --> 00:27:06,461 Speaker 2: I don't care, I don't mind, don't do anything, and 541 00:27:06,462 --> 00:27:09,381 Speaker 2: then you don't do anything. And particularly if you're an 542 00:27:09,381 --> 00:27:11,381 Speaker 2: ex guess or are, the resentment around that can be 543 00:27:11,422 --> 00:27:14,222 Speaker 2: really real, which is why the woman who wrote the 544 00:27:14,302 --> 00:27:15,942 Speaker 2: article on Mom and Me as she said that she's 545 00:27:15,982 --> 00:27:18,382 Speaker 2: a guesser married to an asker and they had to 546 00:27:18,422 --> 00:27:21,782 Speaker 2: like sit down and unpack it, yeah, and like decode 547 00:27:21,821 --> 00:27:23,901 Speaker 2: it in bits, because what are you really. 548 00:27:23,661 --> 00:27:27,061 Speaker 1: Making people listening to this going everything makes sense. 549 00:27:27,141 --> 00:27:29,701 Speaker 3: The issue with being married to and ask her if 550 00:27:29,742 --> 00:27:31,741 Speaker 3: you're a guesser is that you can look around at 551 00:27:31,742 --> 00:27:34,981 Speaker 3: your life sometimes and go, wait a minute, I didn't 552 00:27:34,982 --> 00:27:37,181 Speaker 3: make one of these calls. I didn't make one of 553 00:27:37,182 --> 00:27:39,981 Speaker 3: these decisions. We're going on this holiday and living in 554 00:27:40,022 --> 00:27:42,701 Speaker 3: this house and doing this on Saturday, and that's not 555 00:27:42,702 --> 00:27:45,141 Speaker 3: what I want. But you've never advocated for yourself. So 556 00:27:45,182 --> 00:27:48,461 Speaker 3: the big tension Luca and I had after Luna was 557 00:27:48,462 --> 00:27:50,901 Speaker 3: born was he would turn to me and go, I 558 00:27:50,942 --> 00:27:53,982 Speaker 3: need Luca time this afternoon between blah and blah. He 559 00:27:54,022 --> 00:27:56,141 Speaker 3: thought I would say no if I wasn't comfortable with it, 560 00:27:56,182 --> 00:27:59,022 Speaker 3: and I was horrified that you would even ask because 561 00:27:59,022 --> 00:28:02,302 Speaker 3: I would never ask. And eventually it was like, in 562 00:28:02,422 --> 00:28:04,941 Speaker 3: order for us to have an equal relationship, I had 563 00:28:05,022 --> 00:28:05,861 Speaker 3: to learn to ask. 564 00:28:06,861 --> 00:28:09,022 Speaker 2: You can decode if you know people well, so in 565 00:28:09,061 --> 00:28:11,221 Speaker 2: the instace it's of the birthday, dinner or whatever. My 566 00:28:11,302 --> 00:28:12,621 Speaker 2: friend Panny she says, what do you want to do? 567 00:28:12,661 --> 00:28:15,181 Speaker 2: And I go, let's see. Maybe She's like that's a no. 568 00:28:15,502 --> 00:28:18,142 Speaker 2: She just because I won't say though, But. 569 00:28:18,302 --> 00:28:20,222 Speaker 3: Maya does that to me too. She's like, you don't 570 00:28:20,222 --> 00:28:22,861 Speaker 3: want to do that, and I'm like, ah. 571 00:28:22,942 --> 00:28:25,102 Speaker 1: It's just easy for you to say no. I'd hate that. 572 00:28:27,302 --> 00:28:30,262 Speaker 5: Feedback is a gift from both the perspective of a 573 00:28:30,341 --> 00:28:32,022 Speaker 5: giver as well as the recipient. 574 00:28:33,621 --> 00:28:36,701 Speaker 1: I have a quick bit of feedback for people putting 575 00:28:36,782 --> 00:28:39,822 Speaker 1: beef fat on their face. That a thing I don't 576 00:28:39,862 --> 00:28:41,422 Speaker 1: want to. Don't make me. 577 00:28:41,622 --> 00:28:42,822 Speaker 3: Why would they be doing that? 578 00:28:43,062 --> 00:28:46,461 Speaker 1: Well, last week, Kate Langbrook thrust a jar of beef 579 00:28:46,502 --> 00:28:49,421 Speaker 1: fat or tallow into my hands in the Mum and 580 00:28:49,462 --> 00:28:52,062 Speaker 1: may kitchen and she said, you've got to use this. 581 00:28:52,182 --> 00:28:53,862 Speaker 1: You've just got to put this on your face. And 582 00:28:53,862 --> 00:28:57,022 Speaker 1: I said, I'm a vegetarian, and she said, I don't care. 583 00:28:57,422 --> 00:28:58,622 Speaker 3: She has lovely skins. 584 00:28:58,622 --> 00:29:01,221 Speaker 1: She has beautiful skins. I sort of dismissed it as 585 00:29:01,262 --> 00:29:03,142 Speaker 1: being just a Kate wooy thing, and try I notice 586 00:29:03,142 --> 00:29:06,062 Speaker 1: that it's actually a new trend in skincare that's being 587 00:29:06,142 --> 00:29:09,862 Speaker 1: spread on social media by people who say it's rich 588 00:29:09,862 --> 00:29:13,582 Speaker 1: in vitamins and Apparently it mimics our skins, natural oils 589 00:29:13,661 --> 00:29:18,902 Speaker 1: or something, but dermatologists say, yes, it might moisturize, but 590 00:29:18,982 --> 00:29:22,542 Speaker 1: it can also trap bacteria, and it's very clogging, and 591 00:29:22,582 --> 00:29:25,222 Speaker 1: it can cause breakouts. But on the positive side, dogs 592 00:29:25,222 --> 00:29:26,702 Speaker 1: will love you and try to lick your face. 593 00:29:27,222 --> 00:29:30,102 Speaker 3: Apparently. I heard I was reading a review that said 594 00:29:30,142 --> 00:29:31,582 Speaker 3: the first time you put it on, you can't really 595 00:29:31,582 --> 00:29:34,142 Speaker 3: smell the beef, and then after a few days you're 596 00:29:34,302 --> 00:29:36,022 Speaker 3: like that, actually real stinks like that. 597 00:29:36,062 --> 00:29:38,102 Speaker 2: My mat used to make me eat beef fat on 598 00:29:38,182 --> 00:29:41,062 Speaker 2: toast dripping. We call it is not the same thing. 599 00:29:41,142 --> 00:29:43,181 Speaker 2: Can we just take that jar and spread it on 600 00:29:43,222 --> 00:29:43,582 Speaker 2: my bread? 601 00:29:43,702 --> 00:29:46,461 Speaker 1: I guess you could. It's treated like it's in a 602 00:29:46,542 --> 00:29:50,102 Speaker 1: jar with a label. But skin experts suggests that you 603 00:29:50,142 --> 00:29:54,062 Speaker 1: should stick to scientifically prove an ingredients like squalene or 604 00:29:54,102 --> 00:29:57,382 Speaker 1: sunflower seed oil instead, or just do what I do 605 00:29:57,462 --> 00:30:00,142 Speaker 1: and use expensive chemicals and sometimes a needle filled with. 606 00:30:00,022 --> 00:30:05,062 Speaker 3: Poison after the break distracts leake text and passive aggressive dancing. 607 00:30:05,182 --> 00:30:09,261 Speaker 3: Why the biggest names in entertainment are proving that revenge 608 00:30:09,661 --> 00:30:12,421 Speaker 3: isn't just a dish best served cold, It's also served 609 00:30:12,422 --> 00:30:13,382 Speaker 3: with a grammy. 610 00:30:13,542 --> 00:30:17,302 Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday 611 00:30:17,342 --> 00:30:21,422 Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mere subscribers. Follow the link 612 00:30:21,422 --> 00:30:23,181 Speaker 2: of the show notes to get us in your ears 613 00:30:23,462 --> 00:30:26,181 Speaker 2: five days a week. And a huge thank you to 614 00:30:26,382 --> 00:30:28,022 Speaker 2: all our current subscribers. 615 00:30:33,342 --> 00:30:37,502 Speaker 3: Id on dress for women, i'd on dress for men. 616 00:30:39,062 --> 00:30:39,902 Speaker 1: I've been dressing for. 617 00:30:40,062 --> 00:30:47,302 Speaker 3: Revert Beyonce, Kendrick Lamar, Serena Williams, Taylor Swift. All four 618 00:30:47,382 --> 00:30:51,822 Speaker 3: have harnessed what writer Rachel Richardson calls the secret source 619 00:30:51,942 --> 00:30:56,142 Speaker 3: of those that shape culture. Simply, they have enacted revenge. 620 00:30:56,782 --> 00:30:58,941 Speaker 3: We spoke on the show a few weeks ago about 621 00:30:58,942 --> 00:31:02,102 Speaker 3: a concept called micro pettiness, and the outluders jumped up 622 00:31:02,102 --> 00:31:03,742 Speaker 3: and down and went, this is my life. This is 623 00:31:03,742 --> 00:31:04,102 Speaker 3: all I do. 624 00:31:04,262 --> 00:31:04,701 Speaker 2: I love it. 625 00:31:05,062 --> 00:31:08,542 Speaker 3: They are small, barely perceptible examples of pettiness. 626 00:31:08,742 --> 00:31:09,502 Speaker 1: It's mini revenge. 627 00:31:09,542 --> 00:31:13,022 Speaker 3: She's like microvenge, micro Yes, exactly right, it's going. I 628 00:31:13,062 --> 00:31:14,902 Speaker 3: don't want you to see my revenge, but I know 629 00:31:14,942 --> 00:31:15,262 Speaker 3: I got it. 630 00:31:15,422 --> 00:31:15,942 Speaker 1: Yeah. 631 00:31:15,982 --> 00:31:20,542 Speaker 3: This is the opposite to that. This is big macro pettiness, 632 00:31:21,022 --> 00:31:25,102 Speaker 3: Richardson writes. Kendrick Lamar rocked the Super Bowl halftime show 633 00:31:25,182 --> 00:31:27,502 Speaker 3: and won five Grammys for not like us because of 634 00:31:27,542 --> 00:31:30,822 Speaker 3: a feud. Beyonce was finally honored with the Album of 635 00:31:30,822 --> 00:31:33,662 Speaker 3: the Year Grammy for her country album Cowboy Carter, which 636 00:31:33,742 --> 00:31:37,302 Speaker 3: was inspired by a snub, and Taylor Swift went stratospheric 637 00:31:37,422 --> 00:31:41,261 Speaker 3: when she embraced vengeance the lesson have an OP and 638 00:31:41,342 --> 00:31:44,342 Speaker 3: be a next level hater. An OP is an opponent 639 00:31:44,422 --> 00:31:47,542 Speaker 3: or enemy that you set yourself up against. Perhaps the 640 00:31:47,582 --> 00:31:52,062 Speaker 3: biggest feud in pop culture right now is between one 641 00:31:52,222 --> 00:31:55,622 Speaker 3: Kendrick Lamar, the thirty seven year old American rapper who 642 00:31:56,102 --> 00:31:58,782 Speaker 3: performed at the Super Bowl halftime show, and Drake. 643 00:31:58,822 --> 00:32:02,022 Speaker 1: Wearing bootcut jeans, I might add, and now they're everywhere Drake, 644 00:32:02,022 --> 00:32:04,382 Speaker 1: who is a thirty eight year old Canadian rapper who's 645 00:32:04,382 --> 00:32:07,662 Speaker 1: in Australia, Holly not having a good way. 646 00:32:07,782 --> 00:32:11,542 Speaker 3: You have one minute to explain to us. 647 00:32:13,022 --> 00:32:13,222 Speaker 1: Why. 648 00:32:13,862 --> 00:32:16,701 Speaker 2: For one minute, it has fallen to me it's a 649 00:32:16,702 --> 00:32:19,021 Speaker 2: feud for the ages. Look, I'm not gonna get all 650 00:32:19,022 --> 00:32:21,542 Speaker 2: the nuances in this complicated feud for the ages, and 651 00:32:21,582 --> 00:32:24,461 Speaker 2: I'm certainly not gonna nail White explaining hip hop. But 652 00:32:24,502 --> 00:32:27,822 Speaker 2: my proximity to rap obsessed teens means this high level 653 00:32:27,902 --> 00:32:31,382 Speaker 2: research project has fallen to me here goes. Drake is 654 00:32:31,422 --> 00:32:34,022 Speaker 2: an unlikely outsider in the hip hop world, even though 655 00:32:34,022 --> 00:32:36,902 Speaker 2: he's one of its biggest stars. He's Canadian. He's become 656 00:32:36,942 --> 00:32:39,942 Speaker 2: a huge star for his allegedly good music and also 657 00:32:40,062 --> 00:32:43,982 Speaker 2: by not taking himself too seriously. He's extremely online. He's 658 00:32:44,022 --> 00:32:46,142 Speaker 2: happy to make himself a meme. He doesn't mind a 659 00:32:46,182 --> 00:32:48,022 Speaker 2: love song, and he's also happy to be all dough 660 00:32:48,062 --> 00:32:50,302 Speaker 2: eyed about women like Rihanna and Serena Williams. Back to 661 00:32:50,302 --> 00:32:53,382 Speaker 2: that in a moment. He also loves making diss tracks, 662 00:32:53,422 --> 00:32:56,382 Speaker 2: which are typical of the genre. A dis track slags 663 00:32:56,382 --> 00:32:58,822 Speaker 2: off another rapper, usually over basic stuff like who's got 664 00:32:58,862 --> 00:33:00,782 Speaker 2: more money, who's got a better house, who's faster with 665 00:33:00,782 --> 00:33:01,142 Speaker 2: the rhymes. 666 00:33:01,182 --> 00:33:01,342 Speaker 3: Etc. 667 00:33:02,022 --> 00:33:06,062 Speaker 2: Meanwhile, Kendrick Lamar is a very serious dude. He's from 668 00:33:06,062 --> 00:33:08,302 Speaker 2: Compton in LA and you don't get more heart of 669 00:33:08,382 --> 00:33:11,142 Speaker 2: hip hop than that. He'solytical and thoughtful and hard edged. 670 00:33:11,182 --> 00:33:13,941 Speaker 2: The man has won a Pulitzer Prize for his music. 671 00:33:13,982 --> 00:33:17,981 Speaker 2: For God's sake. He also until recently, did not do distracks. 672 00:33:18,102 --> 00:33:21,582 Speaker 2: Not his thing. He's on a higher plane until last year, 673 00:33:21,622 --> 00:33:24,181 Speaker 2: when the man got sick of being all Michelle Obama 674 00:33:24,182 --> 00:33:27,582 Speaker 2: about it and reached his limit because Drake just kept 675 00:33:27,702 --> 00:33:30,021 Speaker 2: going at him with the tracks, and one of the 676 00:33:30,022 --> 00:33:31,862 Speaker 2: things he said in one is that he knows that 677 00:33:31,942 --> 00:33:35,661 Speaker 2: Kendrick abused a former partner. He also used AI to 678 00:33:35,702 --> 00:33:38,062 Speaker 2: make a dis track about Lamar that used the voices 679 00:33:38,342 --> 00:33:41,262 Speaker 2: of Tupac and Snoop Dogg, legendary rappers. He just keeps 680 00:33:41,262 --> 00:33:43,582 Speaker 2: going and going going, so Kendrick goes, Okay, here we go. 681 00:33:43,862 --> 00:33:46,181 Speaker 2: And in May last year, he makes a distrack of 682 00:33:46,222 --> 00:33:49,342 Speaker 2: his own about Drake, only it's on steroids. It's called 683 00:33:49,342 --> 00:33:51,702 Speaker 2: not Like Us, and it accuses Drake of being a phony, 684 00:33:51,862 --> 00:33:54,822 Speaker 2: saying everyone hates him, and most famously accuses him of 685 00:33:54,822 --> 00:33:57,822 Speaker 2: being a pedophile. The cover artwork of this song is 686 00:33:57,862 --> 00:34:01,302 Speaker 2: a literal picture of Drake's actual house with sex offender 687 00:34:01,302 --> 00:34:03,542 Speaker 2: tags on it, and it has the clever, clever line 688 00:34:03,582 --> 00:34:07,902 Speaker 2: of this strikes a chord and it's probably minor. The 689 00:34:08,022 --> 00:34:10,341 Speaker 2: song is a dead set bang, which is a word 690 00:34:10,342 --> 00:34:13,102 Speaker 2: that upsets my children. Goes to number one, breaks all 691 00:34:13,142 --> 00:34:16,302 Speaker 2: streaming records, goes viral on TikTok, even wins Grammys, has 692 00:34:16,342 --> 00:34:19,142 Speaker 2: the whole industry singing and dancing to it. It's safe 693 00:34:19,181 --> 00:34:21,781 Speaker 2: to say that this has transcended Drake and Lamar at 694 00:34:21,781 --> 00:34:24,142 Speaker 2: this point, and it's also safe to say that although 695 00:34:24,221 --> 00:34:26,982 Speaker 2: Drake is suing Lamar's record company, which also happens to 696 00:34:26,982 --> 00:34:30,302 Speaker 2: be his own record company, Lamar won that disc battle 697 00:34:30,302 --> 00:34:33,462 Speaker 2: hands down. And then, lastly, the Serena Williams of it 698 00:34:33,542 --> 00:34:36,542 Speaker 2: all is that in the song Lamar says best not 699 00:34:36,661 --> 00:34:39,902 Speaker 2: speak on Serena, and Serena, who is also from Compton 700 00:34:40,181 --> 00:34:43,142 Speaker 2: where Kendrick is from, was briefly linked to Drake, and 701 00:34:43,261 --> 00:34:45,301 Speaker 2: let's just say he did love it when she was 702 00:34:45,342 --> 00:34:47,142 Speaker 2: more interested in her now husband than him, and in 703 00:34:47,181 --> 00:34:50,422 Speaker 2: one of her songs he sings side by Serena, your 704 00:34:50,502 --> 00:34:53,701 Speaker 2: husband's a groupie, which is ironic. Important side note, all 705 00:34:53,741 --> 00:34:56,022 Speaker 2: claims made by the rappers in this update a speculative, 706 00:34:56,102 --> 00:34:58,102 Speaker 2: unproven and almost certain alleged at this point. 707 00:34:59,022 --> 00:35:01,182 Speaker 1: How did I do that? Was closer to two minutes, 708 00:35:01,181 --> 00:35:02,821 Speaker 1: but I was just going to let you play on 709 00:35:02,862 --> 00:35:05,142 Speaker 1: because I was riveted. I tried to do it faster, 710 00:35:05,221 --> 00:35:07,861 Speaker 1: but this a lot that's incredibly helpful. Do you know 711 00:35:08,181 --> 00:35:12,622 Speaker 1: the biggest exam sample of revenge that we're all living 712 00:35:12,661 --> 00:35:16,582 Speaker 1: through is Trump, because it's said that the reason he 713 00:35:16,661 --> 00:35:19,902 Speaker 1: decided to run for president was because he was dissed 714 00:35:19,982 --> 00:35:22,942 Speaker 1: by Obama at a White House correspondence dinner when he 715 00:35:23,062 --> 00:35:27,421 Speaker 1: was in the audience, and he was so humiliated that 716 00:35:27,502 --> 00:35:30,502 Speaker 1: he went going to run for president and bloody hell, 717 00:35:30,902 --> 00:35:31,622 Speaker 1: look where we are. 718 00:35:31,902 --> 00:35:35,382 Speaker 3: That's so true. And the other example that I'm seeing 719 00:35:35,741 --> 00:35:39,542 Speaker 3: is Justin Baldoni dropping one hundred and sixty seven pages 720 00:35:40,342 --> 00:35:44,262 Speaker 3: of emails and texts as an active revenge. 721 00:35:43,902 --> 00:35:47,862 Speaker 1: And some people say her lawsuit is an active revenge, yeah, 722 00:35:47,902 --> 00:35:48,662 Speaker 1: against him. 723 00:35:49,142 --> 00:35:52,181 Speaker 2: So the thing that's interesting to me, and particularly about 724 00:35:52,181 --> 00:35:54,782 Speaker 2: this Lamar business, and you know, our friend Taylor Swift 725 00:35:54,942 --> 00:35:57,382 Speaker 2: has been in her career big on the revenge, is 726 00:35:57,382 --> 00:36:00,062 Speaker 2: that we used to be upset about it, you know, 727 00:36:00,142 --> 00:36:02,741 Speaker 2: and be like be the bigger person, rise above, but 728 00:36:02,902 --> 00:36:05,502 Speaker 2: not like us has become such a massive smash. They 729 00:36:05,502 --> 00:36:07,862 Speaker 2: say it's in all genres now, like kids are dancing 730 00:36:07,902 --> 00:36:11,661 Speaker 2: to it. Everybody's into it. And I've seen some analysis 731 00:36:11,661 --> 00:36:14,582 Speaker 2: that says it's a hateful song, like it's a brilliant song, 732 00:36:14,862 --> 00:36:16,821 Speaker 2: and that's you know, you can excuse a lot if 733 00:36:16,862 --> 00:36:19,542 Speaker 2: you've got a good beat, like blurredlines or whatever, but 734 00:36:19,781 --> 00:36:22,822 Speaker 2: it's a hateful song, and that America is feeling hateful, 735 00:36:22,942 --> 00:36:25,301 Speaker 2: and that's why it has been embraced. 736 00:36:24,781 --> 00:36:27,502 Speaker 3: In own people are angry. I reckon that that. 737 00:36:27,582 --> 00:36:30,582 Speaker 2: Is not necessarily with Drake, just like with Shit. 738 00:36:30,982 --> 00:36:33,622 Speaker 3: Yeah, people broadly, I think are feeling a lot of anger, 739 00:36:33,661 --> 00:36:36,622 Speaker 3: and I think that's also why the bullying video went viral, 740 00:36:37,181 --> 00:36:42,661 Speaker 3: because watching someone seek vengeance is so cathartic, because everyone 741 00:36:42,741 --> 00:36:46,221 Speaker 3: has someone in their life that they would dream of 742 00:36:46,261 --> 00:36:48,742 Speaker 3: writing a disc track of yelling at them. 743 00:36:48,622 --> 00:36:50,862 Speaker 2: But then becomes the biggest thing in the world. 744 00:36:51,022 --> 00:36:54,702 Speaker 3: Yes, and of course we are bound by these social 745 00:36:54,781 --> 00:36:57,181 Speaker 3: rules that we all have to play by, but when 746 00:36:57,221 --> 00:37:00,821 Speaker 3: something breaks through like this, I think it gives us 747 00:37:00,822 --> 00:37:03,781 Speaker 3: a sense of control as well. And Taylor doesn't she 748 00:37:03,942 --> 00:37:07,701 Speaker 3: have an album that she's re releasing this year Maya potentially. 749 00:37:07,422 --> 00:37:10,701 Speaker 1: Well, everybody's been waiting for REPTV, which is the Taylor's 750 00:37:10,781 --> 00:37:15,742 Speaker 1: version of her Reputation album, which was essentially a revenge album. 751 00:37:15,781 --> 00:37:18,102 Speaker 1: It's also a love album. It's one of her best albums, 752 00:37:18,142 --> 00:37:21,821 Speaker 1: but would you like me to talk about it was 753 00:37:21,862 --> 00:37:25,222 Speaker 1: about Kanye and Kim. But even in her most recent album, 754 00:37:25,261 --> 00:37:28,582 Speaker 1: which is Tortured Poets Department, there are a couple of 755 00:37:28,862 --> 00:37:31,462 Speaker 1: diss tracks and revenge tracks on that. There's The Smallest 756 00:37:31,462 --> 00:37:34,022 Speaker 1: Man Who Ever Lived, which is about Mattie Healy allegedly, 757 00:37:34,502 --> 00:37:37,301 Speaker 1: and then there's Thank You Amy, which is about Kim 758 00:37:37,382 --> 00:37:41,542 Speaker 1: Kardashian and basically how Kim ruining her life by releasing 759 00:37:41,582 --> 00:37:45,022 Speaker 1: those doctored voicemail messages and implying that Taylor was a 760 00:37:45,062 --> 00:37:48,982 Speaker 1: liar in an argument with her then husband Kanye. She 761 00:37:49,342 --> 00:37:52,301 Speaker 1: sort of spurred Taylor on to write one of the 762 00:37:52,342 --> 00:37:55,421 Speaker 1: greatest albums of her life and basically, look at where 763 00:37:55,542 --> 00:37:58,102 Speaker 1: Kanye is now and look at where Taylor is. So yeah, 764 00:37:58,142 --> 00:37:59,022 Speaker 1: that revenge worked. 765 00:37:59,022 --> 00:38:01,301 Speaker 2: But that bit where we talked about this on the show. 766 00:38:01,302 --> 00:38:03,341 Speaker 2: But where the reason you can decode that because she 767 00:38:03,502 --> 00:38:06,301 Speaker 2: capitalized the letters Kim and the title. That's an act 768 00:38:06,302 --> 00:38:08,222 Speaker 2: of micropenniness for sure. 769 00:38:08,422 --> 00:38:08,742 Speaker 4: Yeah. 770 00:38:08,822 --> 00:38:11,142 Speaker 3: Yeah, she could have been a lot more obvious with it. 771 00:38:11,462 --> 00:38:14,861 Speaker 3: I think as well, hate can feel really energizing. Maybe 772 00:38:14,862 --> 00:38:17,861 Speaker 3: it's a form of resistance. Maybe it's like everyone's talking 773 00:38:17,902 --> 00:38:19,782 Speaker 3: about what you do when you're kind of just feeling 774 00:38:19,822 --> 00:38:22,582 Speaker 3: angry about the world. I think sometimes you just scream 775 00:38:22,582 --> 00:38:23,142 Speaker 3: at your neighbor. 776 00:38:23,502 --> 00:38:26,181 Speaker 2: To quote me a Friedman, Is that what we're doing? Now? 777 00:38:26,181 --> 00:38:28,821 Speaker 1: What are we doing? Now, gosh, there's been a lot 778 00:38:28,822 --> 00:38:32,381 Speaker 1: of screaming and a revenge in this episode. 779 00:38:32,221 --> 00:38:36,582 Speaker 2: Happily not between us. That's my yeah, that is all 780 00:38:36,582 --> 00:38:39,381 Speaker 2: we have time for. Out Louders, thank you so much 781 00:38:39,422 --> 00:38:41,142 Speaker 2: for listening to today's show, and of course to our 782 00:38:41,142 --> 00:38:43,381 Speaker 2: team for putting it together as they do every time. 783 00:38:43,382 --> 00:38:44,942 Speaker 2: We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow. 784 00:38:45,181 --> 00:38:48,182 Speaker 1: And before we go, we've watched Nicole Kidman's film Baby 785 00:38:48,181 --> 00:38:52,462 Speaker 1: Girl altogether. It was quite quite a moment. We've experienced 786 00:38:52,542 --> 00:38:54,622 Speaker 1: quite a few things in our little movie night. 787 00:38:54,741 --> 00:38:57,861 Speaker 3: There's a viral video going around of people going to 788 00:38:58,022 --> 00:39:00,542 Speaker 3: clean the cinema after people have watched Baby Girl and 789 00:39:00,582 --> 00:39:01,902 Speaker 3: they go and wipe down the seats. 790 00:39:02,221 --> 00:39:07,502 Speaker 5: Oh that's We needed to unpack a lot of things, 791 00:39:07,582 --> 00:39:09,542 Speaker 5: so we thought we'd leave you today with a sneak 792 00:39:09,582 --> 00:39:12,862 Speaker 5: peak of that conversation, and for the full chat, check out. 793 00:39:12,701 --> 00:39:16,021 Speaker 1: The link in the show notes, out Louders. Last night, Holly, 794 00:39:16,142 --> 00:39:19,982 Speaker 1: Jesse and I watched Paorn together with a milestone in 795 00:39:20,022 --> 00:39:25,542 Speaker 1: our relationship. It's now the next day we saw Baby 796 00:39:25,542 --> 00:39:28,462 Speaker 1: Girl together at the movies. I had a chop top 797 00:39:28,542 --> 00:39:31,102 Speaker 1: while we watched Nicole have orgasms. Jesse, what did you 798 00:39:31,102 --> 00:39:31,301 Speaker 1: have you. 799 00:39:31,462 --> 00:39:33,462 Speaker 3: I had popcorn, but I also got a drink. 800 00:39:34,142 --> 00:39:34,941 Speaker 1: Holly, Holly, I. 801 00:39:34,902 --> 00:39:38,022 Speaker 2: Had popcorn too. I was literally eating popcorn watching Nicole 802 00:39:38,102 --> 00:39:40,782 Speaker 2: Kidman have orgasms in this very buzzy movie. 803 00:39:41,022 --> 00:39:43,182 Speaker 1: Of course, we're not here to talk about movie snacks. 804 00:39:43,221 --> 00:39:45,821 Speaker 1: We're here to talk about Baby Girl and give you 805 00:39:45,862 --> 00:39:50,022 Speaker 1: a very honest review of this film that you no 806 00:39:50,102 --> 00:39:52,902 Speaker 1: doubt have heard about. You may have seen it by now. 807 00:39:53,462 --> 00:39:55,341 Speaker 1: It starts Withicle Kidman, Bye. 808 00:39:55,142 --> 00:39:58,181 Speaker 3: Bye bye. Shout out to any Mum and me a 809 00:39:58,261 --> 00:40:01,102 Speaker 3: subscribers listening. If you love the show and you want 810 00:40:01,102 --> 00:40:03,781 Speaker 3: to support us, subscribing to Mom and Mia is the 811 00:40:03,942 --> 00:40:06,382 Speaker 3: very best way to do so. There's a link in 812 00:40:06,422 --> 00:40:07,422 Speaker 3: the episode description. 813 00:40:10,302 --> 00:40:11,661 Speaker 5: Best book