WEBVTT - So, We Sat Down With A Tarot Card Reader 0:00:10.622 --> 0:00:13.342 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.822 --> 0:00:17.182 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:17.222 --> 0:00:18.901 that this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:19.502 --> 0:00:23.582 Hello, out louders. Just a quick note from me before 0:00:23.701 --> 0:00:25.342 we start today's show. 0:00:25.381 --> 0:00:26.502 Just a reminder that on. 0:00:26.421 --> 0:00:29.342 Fridays we always like to take a break away from 0:00:29.342 --> 0:00:34.382 the news cycle and give you something metea or lighter, lighthearted, 0:00:34.422 --> 0:00:36.182 have a bit of fun towards the end of the week. 0:00:36.422 --> 0:00:38.342 Now on for a little bit of Friday fun. 0:00:40.382 --> 0:00:43.422 Welcome to mum mea Out Loud. What women are actually 0:00:43.462 --> 0:00:46.982 talking about on Friday, the twelfth of September. I'm not 0:00:46.982 --> 0:00:49.622 Hollywayne right, she is here, but I'm trying to save 0:00:49.662 --> 0:00:50.062 her voice. 0:00:50.102 --> 0:00:50.662 Holly, go on. 0:00:51.342 --> 0:00:54.382 I'm sorry I sound a bit bad today, out Louders. 0:00:54.382 --> 0:00:56.902 I feel fine, but you're going to put up with 0:00:56.942 --> 0:00:58.022 this for a little bit. 0:00:58.222 --> 0:00:59.862 It gets better. I'm sure it'll get better. 0:01:00.302 --> 0:01:03.302 And I'm Jesse Stevens and I'm Amelia Laster And just 0:01:03.302 --> 0:01:05.662 before we get started, I wanted to let you know 0:01:06.021 --> 0:01:09.301 that Holly has taken over the MoMA MEA out Loud substack. 0:01:09.622 --> 0:01:12.062 I know there's a lot of substacks demanding your attention 0:01:12.142 --> 0:01:13.181 these days, but all. 0:01:13.262 --> 0:01:15.782 This is so good it is and it's free. 0:01:15.862 --> 0:01:16.941 It's free, which is great. 0:01:17.062 --> 0:01:19.342 I do have to say that she wrote this one 0:01:19.422 --> 0:01:22.182 a couple of weeks ago, and you can tell she's 0:01:22.182 --> 0:01:24.462 a writer because I know she really thinks through what 0:01:24.502 --> 0:01:26.142 she's going to write, what she's going to say. And 0:01:26.182 --> 0:01:28.381 it was really memorable. It was about this one time 0:01:28.422 --> 0:01:31.382 that she wanted to kill Jesse, and what it actually 0:01:31.382 --> 0:01:36.381 got into was some really juicy, complicated thinking around jealousy 0:01:36.622 --> 0:01:40.662 and around professional jealousy and friendship jealousy. And I just 0:01:40.702 --> 0:01:42.862 can't stop thinking about it, and how lovely to get 0:01:42.902 --> 0:01:43.902 that in my inbox. 0:01:44.262 --> 0:01:46.382 So we'll pop alink and the sheds. 0:01:46.582 --> 0:01:47.902 On our agenda for today. 0:01:48.662 --> 0:01:51.462 If you hear the words love and sex addict, what 0:01:51.502 --> 0:01:53.822 pops into your head? I think for me, it's like 0:01:54.222 --> 0:01:57.422 a famous manner David Dukovney, you're always cheating on his wife, right, 0:01:57.462 --> 0:01:59.622 And it's a bit of an excuse all it used 0:01:59.622 --> 0:02:03.062 to be what popped up before I interviewed his Gilbert recently, 0:02:03.502 --> 0:02:05.742 because maybe a love and sex addict looks like a 0:02:05.782 --> 0:02:09.102 world famous female author whose love stories have inspired. 0:02:10.382 --> 0:02:14.022 Plus I somehow convinced both of you to let us 0:02:14.061 --> 0:02:17.542 do an entire segment with a tarot card reader who 0:02:17.582 --> 0:02:20.462 I saw privately a few weeks ago, and I made 0:02:20.462 --> 0:02:23.462 her sit down with us, and she predicted things that 0:02:23.462 --> 0:02:24.742 there's no way she could have known. 0:02:25.982 --> 0:02:29.222 And we've got some recommendations for your weekend. One is 0:02:29.262 --> 0:02:31.862 so tense that you'll be biting your nails, and another 0:02:32.062 --> 0:02:32.982 is very sexy. 0:02:33.181 --> 0:02:36.022 You might be reaching for the smelling salts business. 0:02:36.622 --> 0:02:39.502 In case you missed it, grown women and toddlers are 0:02:39.502 --> 0:02:42.942 converging on one thing, and that thing is the importance 0:02:43.062 --> 0:02:43.742 of baths. 0:02:43.902 --> 0:02:45.382 BAF time, BAF time. 0:02:45.822 --> 0:02:49.742 Thank you forget catching up over spicy margaritas. The new 0:02:49.822 --> 0:02:52.662 way that women are talking to each other and spending 0:02:52.662 --> 0:02:54.542 time together is to soak in a sauna. 0:02:55.302 --> 0:02:55.901 The New York. 0:02:55.742 --> 0:02:58.222 Times this week reported on what it called the smoking 0:02:58.342 --> 0:03:00.582 hot return of bathing culture. 0:03:01.822 --> 0:03:04.422 Now I love going for a sauna. 0:03:04.542 --> 0:03:07.102 There's a place here in Sydney that every month I 0:03:07.142 --> 0:03:09.062 go with a friend of mine and we do a 0:03:09.102 --> 0:03:12.142 sauna and we just feel so wonderful afterwards, and our 0:03:12.222 --> 0:03:14.022 skin glows, and then we do go and get a 0:03:14.062 --> 0:03:16.742 spicy margarita. But the important thing is that we first 0:03:16.942 --> 0:03:20.142 did the healthier thing, going for a sauna. Is to 0:03:20.302 --> 0:03:22.302 enter a healthy third space. One of the women says 0:03:22.302 --> 0:03:24.222 to the Times, it's cheap, it's good for you. It 0:03:24.262 --> 0:03:26.621 doesn't evolve drinking. It's not your home, it's not a bar. 0:03:26.742 --> 0:03:29.702 It's a third space. And there's more of a focus 0:03:29.782 --> 0:03:32.862 these days on preventative health. I think post pandemic, everyone's 0:03:32.902 --> 0:03:36.262 looking for ways to feel better, to feel well, and 0:03:36.342 --> 0:03:37.862 you are doing your body a favor. 0:03:37.902 --> 0:03:39.902 When you go to the sauna, I have questions, go, 0:03:40.262 --> 0:03:42.142 do you have to get naked in front of each other? 0:03:42.462 --> 0:03:46.022 No? The way that most saunas work. In fact, every 0:03:46.062 --> 0:03:48.462 sauna I can think of going to, you wear a 0:03:48.662 --> 0:03:52.302 bathing suit or a swimsuit, single sex, mix, sex, mix sex. 0:03:53.102 --> 0:03:55.862 The sauna that I go to has very bright lighting, 0:03:55.982 --> 0:03:58.382 which is good because no, it's good because then you 0:03:58.462 --> 0:04:01.502 know that it's clean. I actually get a little nervous 0:04:01.542 --> 0:04:03.222 when you got a one that's trying to be very 0:04:03.222 --> 0:04:05.582 erotic and dark, because you don't want to do that 0:04:05.622 --> 0:04:07.822 with strangers. And also you don't want to see like little. 0:04:07.582 --> 0:04:10.222 Bits of hair bathouses are popping up all Sydney. You 0:04:10.262 --> 0:04:11.342 into it. Jesse, I am. 0:04:11.422 --> 0:04:14.462 I went recently with my mum and Claire and it 0:04:14.502 --> 0:04:16.182 was the same because I think that when you hang 0:04:16.222 --> 0:04:19.302 out with people. I have found this recently where you go, 0:04:19.502 --> 0:04:21.142 I don't want to go out for a really expensive 0:04:21.142 --> 0:04:24.861 dinner or a cocktail, like things are just so expensive, 0:04:25.342 --> 0:04:27.822 and you can go to a bath house. There's been 0:04:27.861 --> 0:04:30.022 a bunch pop up sort of all around the city, 0:04:30.541 --> 0:04:34.222 and the point of the bath house is the idleness, 0:04:34.342 --> 0:04:36.701 like they're sitting there for a long period of time. 0:04:36.741 --> 0:04:38.621 And I was reading this, how long do you go for? 0:04:38.941 --> 0:04:41.822 I reckon, we were there for two hours and just 0:04:41.941 --> 0:04:44.821 laid around. There's kind of a really hot bath, and 0:04:44.861 --> 0:04:47.022 then there's one that's a little bit cooler, and then 0:04:47.061 --> 0:04:49.941 they even had the cold plunges, which I was like, 0:04:50.101 --> 0:04:53.702 absolutely no interest. But I was reading this substack all 0:04:53.702 --> 0:04:57.582 about the rise in bathing because what happened was they 0:04:57.582 --> 0:04:59.942 were massive in ancient Rome, and like I've been to 0:04:59.981 --> 0:05:02.741 one in Turkey and all over the world, and due 0:05:02.902 --> 0:05:07.501 to a number of factors, including interestingly the AIDS epidemic, 0:05:08.142 --> 0:05:11.061 bath houses were closed across like the US and Europe 0:05:11.101 --> 0:05:14.501 and a lot of places, they just kind of disappeared. 0:05:14.782 --> 0:05:16.941 And also because we all got our own plumbing, so 0:05:16.941 --> 0:05:18.942 we had a bath at home, so who needs these 0:05:19.142 --> 0:05:23.021 public ones, but there's been this rise, especially post COVID, 0:05:23.061 --> 0:05:29.262 for this preventative health wellness idleness thing that we're all 0:05:29.342 --> 0:05:33.782 kind of interested in. I found that funny because it's 0:05:33.821 --> 0:05:36.541 also turned into In this sub stack, it said it's 0:05:36.541 --> 0:05:39.902 turned into this hydrotherapy meat circuit training. You see some 0:05:39.941 --> 0:05:41.902 people go and they've got to do cold lunch hop 0:05:41.902 --> 0:05:42.981 plunch it. 0:05:43.022 --> 0:05:44.581 And it was saying, no, no, The point of the 0:05:44.621 --> 0:05:48.101 bath house is that you sit no phone. 0:05:48.262 --> 0:05:50.622 You literally can't take your phone exactly. 0:05:50.741 --> 0:05:53.981 You have to just be and it's about boredom and 0:05:54.022 --> 0:05:55.861 letting your mind rest. 0:05:55.861 --> 0:05:56.861 And even the ancient. 0:05:56.621 --> 0:05:58.941 Romans would talk about how they got ideas and stuff 0:05:58.941 --> 0:05:59.741 in their bars. 0:05:59.941 --> 0:06:01.902 We don't have any of these down my way. I'm 0:06:01.941 --> 0:06:03.622 going to come to Sydney just for a bath day. 0:06:03.981 --> 0:06:04.462 That's great. 0:06:04.621 --> 0:06:06.541 I did just go to one in Brisbane because I 0:06:06.582 --> 0:06:08.262 went to Brisbane on a quick trip and the first 0:06:08.262 --> 0:06:09.822 thing I looked up was whether or not there was 0:06:09.821 --> 0:06:10.462 a bath house. 0:06:10.541 --> 0:06:11.861 There was a spectacular one. 0:06:11.861 --> 0:06:13.021 Because you used to live in Japan. 0:06:13.301 --> 0:06:16.662 Thank you, thanks for bringing that up. I'm so did 0:06:16.662 --> 0:06:18.941 you go yeah all the time. Fact, that's where I 0:06:18.941 --> 0:06:21.981 got into it. Typically there, it's very common once a week, 0:06:22.101 --> 0:06:25.462 say to go with your family to the bath house. 0:06:25.702 --> 0:06:27.782 As a family. So it's not single family. 0:06:27.861 --> 0:06:29.782 Actually it is divided into sexes. There. 0:06:30.262 --> 0:06:33.822 A fun fact is that in Japan they did bathe 0:06:33.941 --> 0:06:36.981 nude co ed until the Americans came in the late 0:06:37.022 --> 0:06:39.462 nineteenth century and made it weird and they're like, oh, 0:06:39.621 --> 0:06:42.101 we should put clothes on. They made it weird, but 0:06:42.222 --> 0:06:44.022 it's a very family activity. 0:06:44.421 --> 0:06:46.981 I did one in Turkey years ago. I've never forgotten about. 0:06:47.262 --> 0:06:51.621 Where they wash your hair and they exfoliate. I remember 0:06:51.702 --> 0:06:54.381 watching things come off my skin. This is amazing. 0:06:54.582 --> 0:06:56.261 Koreans are also great at that too. 0:06:56.462 --> 0:06:58.862 I was silk. I came out just like sliding all 0:06:58.861 --> 0:07:00.302 over the place. I would love it. 0:07:00.421 --> 0:07:02.582 I don't think Western cultures know how to exfoliate it. 0:07:02.741 --> 0:07:06.861 No, So I interviewed Elizabeth Gilbert a couple of weeks ago. 0:07:07.181 --> 0:07:09.101 You haven't stopped talking about. I know I was a 0:07:09.142 --> 0:07:11.941 little bit obsessed. I did it for a special episode 0:07:11.982 --> 0:07:14.782 of No Filter. I don't know that there would be 0:07:14.862 --> 0:07:16.662 many out loud as. You've never heard of Liz Gilbert, 0:07:16.742 --> 0:07:19.141 but if you haven't, she wrote Eat, Pray, Love right, 0:07:19.222 --> 0:07:21.701 so almost twenty years ago now, and that's one of 0:07:21.702 --> 0:07:25.862 those rare books that just exploded into a cultural thing, right, 0:07:25.982 --> 0:07:28.982 millions and millions of copies, Western women all over the 0:07:28.982 --> 0:07:32.821 place going I need to go and find myself somewhere. 0:07:32.821 --> 0:07:35.862 She really contributed to the over tourism of Balie. 0:07:35.982 --> 0:07:39.782 She did. Julia Roberts played her in a movie. Anyway, 0:07:39.821 --> 0:07:42.622 we didn't talk about any of that, Right, She's become 0:07:42.782 --> 0:07:45.381 obviously a very big sort of cultural figure in a 0:07:45.422 --> 0:07:48.302 certain kind of I hate to say self helpy world, 0:07:48.381 --> 0:07:51.502 but probably in that self helpy universe, right, And not 0:07:51.582 --> 0:07:53.701 very many of us have much in common with Liz Gilbert. 0:07:53.702 --> 0:07:57.022 I wouldn't say she's exceptionally rich these days. You know, 0:07:57.182 --> 0:07:59.982 she's had a life of many extremes that are documented 0:07:59.982 --> 0:08:02.702 in her books. But I reckon that quite a lot 0:08:02.782 --> 0:08:05.382 of women would have a little bell ringing in their 0:08:05.422 --> 0:08:08.142 head when she talks about what her new book is about, 0:08:08.142 --> 0:08:11.622 which is about being a sex and love addict. So 0:08:12.182 --> 0:08:13.941 at the front of this book, her book is a 0:08:13.982 --> 0:08:17.062 memoir about the last few years of her life, well 0:08:17.062 --> 0:08:19.662 actually the last decade or so of her life, including 0:08:20.102 --> 0:08:23.781 her relationship with Raya Elias, who she If you followed 0:08:23.821 --> 0:08:25.581 her on social you would know all these things, but 0:08:25.622 --> 0:08:29.422 if you didn't. She famously left her second husband for Raya. 0:08:29.542 --> 0:08:31.461 Raya was her best friend of many years, but when 0:08:31.742 --> 0:08:35.381 she was diagnosed with cancer, Liz realized that actually she 0:08:35.462 --> 0:08:37.702 was in love with Raya and this was a romantic relationship, 0:08:37.702 --> 0:08:39.862 and they got together and Liz was with her until 0:08:39.902 --> 0:08:41.822 she died, and a whole lot of shit went down. 0:08:41.862 --> 0:08:45.262 And that's what the book's about. But also it's about 0:08:45.302 --> 0:08:47.582 sex and love addiction, which I reckon lots of women 0:08:47.582 --> 0:08:50.142 will be like hmmm. At the front of this book, 0:08:50.222 --> 0:08:54.022 she says, I am a sex and love addict. I 0:08:54.142 --> 0:08:57.142 have caused tremendous harm to myself and others through my 0:08:57.262 --> 0:09:00.222 decades of sex and love addiction. I have inserted myself 0:09:00.262 --> 0:09:03.742 into other people's relationships, and I've broken up families. I 0:09:03.742 --> 0:09:06.222 have lied to myself and others. I have hurt people 0:09:06.262 --> 0:09:09.302 who I promised to cherish. I have crossed boundaries with friends. 0:09:09.862 --> 0:09:11.822 I've run away from people who cared about me and 0:09:11.902 --> 0:09:14.982 towards people who didn't. I've cheated on people and allowed 0:09:14.982 --> 0:09:17.261 myself to be cheated on. I've tried to buy love 0:09:17.302 --> 0:09:21.342 with money. She goes on, I've committed and accepted shameful objectification. 0:09:21.702 --> 0:09:25.702 I've used people's bodies as drugs, both sedatives and stimulants. 0:09:25.942 --> 0:09:29.542 I've treated my own body with terrible disrespect, and I 0:09:29.622 --> 0:09:33.142 have never been able to stop. Now, what do you 0:09:33.142 --> 0:09:34.022 think when you hear that? 0:09:34.342 --> 0:09:37.222 There were elements of what she said there and also 0:09:37.302 --> 0:09:40.142 in interviews I've been reading over the last few weeks 0:09:40.462 --> 0:09:44.302 where I thought, I find that deeply relatable. She said 0:09:44.822 --> 0:09:48.222 that she has felt lost in the endless search for connection, 0:09:48.582 --> 0:09:51.862 and I thought, yeah, I think that's a deeply human experience. 0:09:52.822 --> 0:09:55.702 But when I. 0:09:55.062 --> 0:09:58.021 Hear something like that and she gets into the details 0:09:58.022 --> 0:10:01.302 of how she behaved, I stopped relating with a lot 0:10:01.342 --> 0:10:03.942 of what she was talking about and thought, oh, I 0:10:04.102 --> 0:10:06.542 actually think I've been in relationships with people who have 0:10:06.622 --> 0:10:07.822 had sex and love addictions. 0:10:07.942 --> 0:10:10.022 You know people who or I know people. 0:10:09.862 --> 0:10:12.422 And I think that for me, the biggest red flag 0:10:12.462 --> 0:10:17.262 has been in fidelity and a really fast on intense 0:10:17.342 --> 0:10:23.902 relationship that when the whether it's dopamine or the adrenaline 0:10:24.622 --> 0:10:28.942 that kicks off a relationship, once that begins to settle, 0:10:29.502 --> 0:10:32.022 the person seems to lose interest and go and find 0:10:32.062 --> 0:10:36.302 it somewhere else, which I suppose is very much like 0:10:36.382 --> 0:10:39.382 an addiction like they're looking for another hit, like a 0:10:39.462 --> 0:10:43.182 hit for someone to validate them in a new way 0:10:43.462 --> 0:10:45.862 that one partner can't consistently do. 0:10:46.022 --> 0:10:48.342 The parallels that she paints a lot in this book 0:10:48.382 --> 0:10:50.822 because Rayo was a drug addict right who'd been in 0:10:50.862 --> 0:10:52.662 recovery for a lot of years but lapsed in the 0:10:52.702 --> 0:10:54.142 last months of her life. 0:10:54.142 --> 0:10:56.342 Really, she says, addicts of. 0:10:56.342 --> 0:11:00.502 All kinds use substances and things to take their pain away, 0:11:00.542 --> 0:11:03.422 to make them feel better, and love and sex addicts 0:11:03.422 --> 0:11:06.462 do that with relationships. One of the problems with it 0:11:06.542 --> 0:11:09.982 is is we all idolize this level of romantic So 0:11:10.102 --> 0:11:11.782 just a couple of things, she says, are quite typical 0:11:12.382 --> 0:11:14.342 of the love and sex addict that might ring bells 0:11:14.422 --> 0:11:17.862 right overlapping relationships so often not ending one too, you've 0:11:17.862 --> 0:11:20.742 got another one to go to, throwing yourself into them, 0:11:20.782 --> 0:11:24.262 completely pouring all your time and resources into them. And 0:11:24.262 --> 0:11:27.422 she says women in particular, we're programmed to give, give, give, 0:11:27.622 --> 0:11:30.102 so it's something that women are more likely to do often, 0:11:30.662 --> 0:11:33.862 this idea that this relationship will make everything great, like. 0:11:34.142 --> 0:11:36.502 He will heal me, This will heal me, My life will. 0:11:36.342 --> 0:11:39.542 Be fabulous because now I am loved this person will 0:11:39.542 --> 0:11:41.902 fix everything. But then, as you've sort of said Jesse, 0:11:42.262 --> 0:11:45.462 as the haze clears and as she points out, someone 0:11:45.462 --> 0:11:47.422 has to get up and go to work or do 0:11:47.542 --> 0:11:50.102 other things for their family, or just basically go back 0:11:50.102 --> 0:11:53.942 to life. The enrangement of abandonment where you're kind of like, 0:11:54.022 --> 0:11:56.022 after all I did for you, and now you haven't 0:11:56.062 --> 0:11:58.742 fixed me, and you're furious and you move on to 0:11:58.782 --> 0:12:01.822 the next partner. I think I was a bit like 0:12:01.862 --> 0:12:03.862 that in my youth, so I probably wasn't an addict, 0:12:03.862 --> 0:12:05.982 but I know people like that. 0:12:06.462 --> 0:12:10.422 Okay, but aren't we just papologizing bad decisions here? Like 0:12:10.622 --> 0:12:13.262 the thing that I can't get on board with is 0:12:13.622 --> 0:12:17.982 in using the language of addiction. It's almost like grafting 0:12:18.382 --> 0:12:22.822 her bad decisions onto what is more of a medical issue. 0:12:23.262 --> 0:12:27.182 Another person who's called themselves a sex addict is Harvey Weinstein. 0:12:27.502 --> 0:12:30.182 That was his big excuse when he was found out. 0:12:30.462 --> 0:12:32.862 He said, I'm a sex addict and going to rehab 0:12:32.942 --> 0:12:34.942 now that he was thrown in prison. And obviously Liz 0:12:34.982 --> 0:12:37.822 Gilbert hasn't done anything wrong in a criminal way, but 0:12:38.142 --> 0:12:40.742 he used it sort of like an excuse, sort of 0:12:40.782 --> 0:12:44.062 like to say, I couldn't help myself. And what I 0:12:44.102 --> 0:12:48.102 find difficult about that is we all have these neurotransmitters 0:12:48.142 --> 0:12:50.622 in our brain that are triggered when we fall in LoVa, 0:12:50.662 --> 0:12:52.982 when we're attracted to someone. We've all got to deal 0:12:53.022 --> 0:12:55.502 with that flood of dopamine, and we all want more 0:12:55.542 --> 0:12:57.422 of it. It feels really good to fall in love. 0:12:57.502 --> 0:12:59.822 I think we can all agree on that. But the 0:12:59.902 --> 0:13:02.702 Liz Gilberts and Harvey Weinstein's of the world as saying, 0:13:02.782 --> 0:13:04.982 but I wanted more of it because it felt really good. 0:13:05.022 --> 0:13:09.142 Can both be true though, because it's like I enjoy 0:13:09.182 --> 0:13:11.982 a glass of wine, right, but I don't enjoy a 0:13:11.982 --> 0:13:13.822 glass of wine as much as someone who has a 0:13:13.902 --> 0:13:18.462 real dependence on alcohol. And that doesn't absolve that person 0:13:18.942 --> 0:13:22.222 from getting behind the wheel. It doesn't absolve that person 0:13:22.742 --> 0:13:25.502 from acting violently if they've had too much to drink. 0:13:26.102 --> 0:13:29.062 But there are clearly people who are more predisposed to 0:13:29.742 --> 0:13:32.662 addiction and to chasing those highs. 0:13:33.382 --> 0:13:35.662 And also it's the glass of wine analogy. You can 0:13:35.702 --> 0:13:37.662 have a glass of wine or two glass of wine, 0:13:37.862 --> 0:13:39.982 but not have to keep going. And I guess her 0:13:40.022 --> 0:13:44.742 point is that we might have all experienced the highs 0:13:44.782 --> 0:13:47.502 of the dopamine highs of love and lust. Let's hope 0:13:47.502 --> 0:13:49.822 we have at some point in our lives and wanted 0:13:49.862 --> 0:13:53.222 to chase it again. But some people are less like 0:13:53.342 --> 0:13:57.462 just can't not. I mean, I get your Weinstein example, 0:13:57.462 --> 0:13:59.702 and I think that, just like lots of addictions and 0:13:59.782 --> 0:14:02.862 mental health conditions, it can be used as an excuse. 0:14:02.902 --> 0:14:04.182 But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 0:14:04.342 --> 0:14:05.262 No, that's a good point. 0:14:05.622 --> 0:14:08.062 You know, the DSM, it's this book that has all 0:14:08.102 --> 0:14:11.782 the psychological conditions, and that's sort of what is recognized 0:14:11.822 --> 0:14:14.542 by health insurance companies and governments. In order to assess 0:14:14.622 --> 0:14:18.142 psychological conditions. They looked into whether or not to include 0:14:18.182 --> 0:14:20.582 love and sex addiction in the GSM. It is not 0:14:20.702 --> 0:14:23.662 in the DSM, and the reason is because there are 0:14:23.662 --> 0:14:25.302 no physical symptoms of the drawal. 0:14:25.902 --> 0:14:27.342 So there is a big. 0:14:27.142 --> 0:14:30.542 Difference between an alcohol addiction and the love and sex addiction. 0:14:30.942 --> 0:14:33.422 Because I find that interesting too, because there's an I 0:14:33.462 --> 0:14:35.382 think it was in an interview I was reading with 0:14:35.382 --> 0:14:38.622 Elizabeth Gilbert where she was saying, it's not an exaggeration. 0:14:38.702 --> 0:14:41.582 The closest I've ever come to both suicide and murder 0:14:41.742 --> 0:14:44.062 was because of my addiction to another person and She 0:14:44.182 --> 0:14:47.342 says people kill themselves and each other every day because 0:14:47.342 --> 0:14:52.862 of relationship fixation and obsession. People routinely lose everything their health, serenity, jobs, money, 0:14:52.862 --> 0:14:56.622 families because of romantic devastation and dysfunction, and still they 0:14:56.702 --> 0:14:59.302 have trouble walking away. And I got to the end 0:14:59.302 --> 0:15:02.902 of that sentence and I went, I am uncomfortable with 0:15:02.982 --> 0:15:06.822 a narrative that says that domestic violence is the first 0:15:06.862 --> 0:15:11.742 thing my mind goes to. There people who physically hurt 0:15:11.862 --> 0:15:15.542 or endanger people they purport to love. I feel very 0:15:15.622 --> 0:15:19.982 uncomfortable putting a love and sex addiction, but I label 0:15:20.022 --> 0:15:20.262 on that. 0:15:20.422 --> 0:15:24.182 Don't think you have to like it's interesting your point, Amelia, Like, 0:15:24.782 --> 0:15:27.382 of course you could say there's no physical. 0:15:26.982 --> 0:15:28.942 Withdrawal, so therefore it can't be a real addiction. 0:15:29.062 --> 0:15:31.582 But we all know there's a whole lot of gray 0:15:31.622 --> 0:15:34.382 area problem, red flag drinking and all kinds of substance 0:15:34.382 --> 0:15:38.742 abuse that wouldn't necessarily fit that definition, right. And I 0:15:38.782 --> 0:15:42.022 think it really rang bells for me because it's the 0:15:42.182 --> 0:15:46.182 chasing of the high that I really understand from people 0:15:46.182 --> 0:15:48.822 around me, and the obsession. It's like the way I 0:15:48.822 --> 0:15:52.502 feel every time I see people who are always on Instagram. 0:15:52.102 --> 0:15:54.262 Going, I am more in love than I have ever been. 0:15:54.782 --> 0:15:58.582 This is unbelievable. This is gonna fast on, fast off obsession. 0:15:59.022 --> 0:16:00.542 Limerens like, we all get. 0:16:00.342 --> 0:16:02.542 It, and why we're all so skeptical when we see 0:16:02.542 --> 0:16:04.782 it too, because it feels dangerous. 0:16:04.822 --> 0:16:07.422 And what Gilbert was saying is that for her, after 0:16:07.502 --> 0:16:11.822 Raya's death, what she realized was this big, glorious love 0:16:11.902 --> 0:16:16.182 story narrative that she'd told herself and the world was true. 0:16:16.502 --> 0:16:18.822 They were deeply in love and they had this amazing relationship. 0:16:18.982 --> 0:16:20.982 But the code dependent because she says that women are 0:16:21.022 --> 0:16:24.022 generally more comfortable with the word codependent, but it's the 0:16:24.062 --> 0:16:24.542 same thing. 0:16:24.622 --> 0:16:24.902 Really. 0:16:25.702 --> 0:16:27.822 She says, she knows lots of women are uncomfortable saying 0:16:27.822 --> 0:16:30.622 sex addiction, but she says, I've used I learned early, 0:16:30.662 --> 0:16:32.382 and lots of women do that. You can use sex 0:16:32.422 --> 0:16:35.182 to control people and get people to do what you want. 0:16:35.222 --> 0:16:37.622 And so you know, she thinks it's absolutely valid to 0:16:37.622 --> 0:16:40.622 be in there. She's like, that was a big love story, 0:16:40.622 --> 0:16:43.102 but we're just so comfortable with that narrative. We overlook 0:16:43.102 --> 0:16:46.222 all the messes and the toxicity and the codependence. And 0:16:46.302 --> 0:16:48.542 I get that anyway, when I interviewed her. I said, 0:16:49.022 --> 0:16:52.782 now you are aware of this and living a sober life, 0:16:52.822 --> 0:16:54.382 as she calls it, from sex and love. I said, 0:16:54.382 --> 0:16:57.262 does that mean you have to stay single forever? And 0:16:57.342 --> 0:17:00.462 she said no, but if I was going to date again, 0:17:00.542 --> 0:17:02.902 because she's been on her own now after her dad, 0:17:02.942 --> 0:17:04.782 she went on what she calls a binge, and some 0:17:04.821 --> 0:17:07.421 people who are deep in this story would remember her 0:17:07.462 --> 0:17:09.262 posting a picture of being with a guy not long 0:17:09.262 --> 0:17:11.902 after Raya died and being like, I've found love again. 0:17:12.662 --> 0:17:15.302 She now says that was very much a binge. Anyway, 0:17:15.341 --> 0:17:17.542 when I said to it, do you have to stay 0:17:17.861 --> 0:17:19.702 sober and single and alone? 0:17:20.542 --> 0:17:21.421 This is what she said. 0:17:21.821 --> 0:17:25.782 I'm not sure that anyone would recommend partnering up with me, 0:17:25.821 --> 0:17:29.262 you know what I mean, Like if like, does anyone. 0:17:28.982 --> 0:17:31.022 Really want to be my fourth spouse? 0:17:31.141 --> 0:17:31.861 You know, like, does. 0:17:31.742 --> 0:17:35.381 Anybody like does anybody really want to tackle this? Like? 0:17:35.621 --> 0:17:37.901 I think it's a public service for me, honestly to 0:17:38.022 --> 0:17:40.742 love people in a different way, and to love people 0:17:40.821 --> 0:17:43.501 in a way where I can show up in truly 0:17:43.581 --> 0:17:47.661 generous love, which I'm great at as a friend, and 0:17:47.702 --> 0:17:49.622 I'm great at as a family member, and I'm great 0:17:49.661 --> 0:17:50.821 at as a community member. 0:17:50.982 --> 0:17:51.462 But if that. 0:17:51.422 --> 0:17:55.381 Should change, then I've got this sober dating plan that 0:17:55.462 --> 0:17:58.661 includes items like no two week long first dates, like 0:17:58.742 --> 0:18:00.462 You're not going to go on a date with somebody 0:18:00.742 --> 0:18:03.341 and two weeks later they're living with you, Like we're 0:18:03.341 --> 0:18:06.501 not doing that. Like no opening bank accounts for people, 0:18:06.742 --> 0:18:11.701 like no lavish gifts to try to seduce. No, no 0:18:11.782 --> 0:18:15.381 going on big, glamorous, romantic trips with someone who I've 0:18:15.422 --> 0:18:17.982 only known for a month, because I've got to stay 0:18:18.022 --> 0:18:20.462 in reality and make sure that, like anyone can fall 0:18:20.502 --> 0:18:22.262 in love with someone on a tropical island, we have 0:18:22.302 --> 0:18:24.581 to see whether this actually works in the real world. 0:18:24.661 --> 0:18:27.942 And no constant texting between dates, because I can get 0:18:27.982 --> 0:18:30.381 sucked into that and lost in that, and I have 0:18:30.462 --> 0:18:32.102 to go like if I'm going to go on a date, 0:18:32.101 --> 0:18:34.902 I have to come home afterwards and I won't see 0:18:34.942 --> 0:18:37.542 you again for a week. Because I need to remember 0:18:37.581 --> 0:18:39.501 that I love my life. If I need to remember 0:18:39.502 --> 0:18:42.421 that I have friends, that I have a dog, that 0:18:42.502 --> 0:18:44.821 I have a career, you know, all these things that 0:18:44.901 --> 0:18:48.181 I throw away when I fall into desperate obsession and 0:18:48.182 --> 0:18:50.942 fixation on somebody, I've got to hold onto. So that's 0:18:50.942 --> 0:18:52.141 a plan that's in place. 0:18:52.341 --> 0:18:55.022 So apparently that's another sign as well that you might 0:18:55.061 --> 0:18:57.901