Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3: Hello, out louders. Just a quick note from me before
Speaker 3: we start today's show.
Speaker 4: Just a reminder that on.
Speaker 3: Fridays we always like to take a break away from
Speaker 3: the news cycle and give you something metea or lighter, lighthearted,
Speaker 3: have a bit of fun towards the end of the week.
Speaker 4: Now on for a little bit of Friday fun.
Speaker 3: Welcome to mum mea Out Loud. What women are actually
Speaker 3: talking about on Friday, the twelfth of September. I'm not
Speaker 3: Hollywayne right, she is here, but I'm trying to save
Speaker 3: her voice.
Speaker 2: Holly, go on.
Speaker 5: I'm sorry I sound a bit bad today, out Louders.
Speaker 5: I feel fine, but you're going to put up with
Speaker 5: this for a little bit.
Speaker 2: It gets better. I'm sure it'll get better.
Speaker 6: And I'm Jesse Stevens and I'm Amelia Laster And just
Speaker 6: before we get started, I wanted to let you know
Speaker 6: that Holly has taken over the MoMA MEA out Loud substack.
Speaker 6: I know there's a lot of substacks demanding your attention
Speaker 6: these days, but all.
Speaker 3: This is so good it is and it's free.
Speaker 1: It's free, which is great.
Speaker 6: I do have to say that she wrote this one
Speaker 6: a couple of weeks ago, and you can tell she's
Speaker 6: a writer because I know she really thinks through what
Speaker 6: she's going to write, what she's going to say. And
Speaker 6: it was really memorable. It was about this one time
Speaker 6: that she wanted to kill Jesse, and what it actually
Speaker 6: got into was some really juicy, complicated thinking around jealousy
Speaker 6: and around professional jealousy and friendship jealousy. And I just
Speaker 6: can't stop thinking about it, and how lovely to get
Speaker 6: that in my inbox.
Speaker 1: So we'll pop alink and the sheds.
Speaker 2: On our agenda for today.
Speaker 5: If you hear the words love and sex addict, what
Speaker 5: pops into your head? I think for me, it's like
Speaker 5: a famous manner David Dukovney, you're always cheating on his wife, right,
Speaker 5: And it's a bit of an excuse all it used
Speaker 5: to be what popped up before I interviewed his Gilbert recently,
Speaker 5: because maybe a love and sex addict looks like a
Speaker 5: world famous female author whose love stories have inspired.
Speaker 3: Plus I somehow convinced both of you to let us
Speaker 3: do an entire segment with a tarot card reader who
Speaker 3: I saw privately a few weeks ago, and I made
Speaker 3: her sit down with us, and she predicted things that
Speaker 3: there's no way she could have known.
Speaker 6: And we've got some recommendations for your weekend. One is
Speaker 6: so tense that you'll be biting your nails, and another
Speaker 6: is very sexy.
Speaker 1: You might be reaching for the smelling salts business.
Speaker 6: In case you missed it, grown women and toddlers are
Speaker 6: converging on one thing, and that thing is the importance
Speaker 6: of baths.
Speaker 4: BAF time, BAF time.
Speaker 6: Thank you forget catching up over spicy margaritas. The new
Speaker 6: way that women are talking to each other and spending
Speaker 6: time together is to soak in a sauna.
Speaker 1: The New York.
Speaker 6: Times this week reported on what it called the smoking
Speaker 6: hot return of bathing culture.
Speaker 1: Now I love going for a sauna.
Speaker 6: There's a place here in Sydney that every month I
Speaker 6: go with a friend of mine and we do a
Speaker 6: sauna and we just feel so wonderful afterwards, and our
Speaker 6: skin glows, and then we do go and get a
Speaker 6: spicy margarita. But the important thing is that we first
Speaker 6: did the healthier thing, going for a sauna. Is to
Speaker 6: enter a healthy third space. One of the women says
Speaker 6: to the Times, it's cheap, it's good for you. It
Speaker 6: doesn't evolve drinking. It's not your home, it's not a bar.
Speaker 6: It's a third space. And there's more of a focus
Speaker 6: these days on preventative health. I think post pandemic, everyone's
Speaker 6: looking for ways to feel better, to feel well, and
Speaker 6: you are doing your body a favor.
Speaker 5: When you go to the sauna, I have questions, go,
Speaker 5: do you have to get naked in front of each other?
Speaker 6: No? The way that most saunas work. In fact, every
Speaker 6: sauna I can think of going to, you wear a
Speaker 6: bathing suit or a swimsuit, single sex, mix, sex, mix sex.
Speaker 6: The sauna that I go to has very bright lighting,
Speaker 6: which is good because no, it's good because then you
Speaker 6: know that it's clean. I actually get a little nervous
Speaker 6: when you got a one that's trying to be very
Speaker 6: erotic and dark, because you don't want to do that
Speaker 6: with strangers. And also you don't want to see like little.
Speaker 2: Bits of hair bathouses are popping up all Sydney. You
Speaker 2: into it. Jesse, I am.
Speaker 3: I went recently with my mum and Claire and it
Speaker 3: was the same because I think that when you hang
Speaker 3: out with people. I have found this recently where you go,
Speaker 3: I don't want to go out for a really expensive
Speaker 3: dinner or a cocktail, like things are just so expensive,
Speaker 3: and you can go to a bath house. There's been
Speaker 3: a bunch pop up sort of all around the city,
Speaker 3: and the point of the bath house is the idleness,
Speaker 3: like they're sitting there for a long period of time.
Speaker 4: And I was reading this, how long do you go for?
Speaker 3: I reckon, we were there for two hours and just
Speaker 3: laid around. There's kind of a really hot bath, and
Speaker 3: then there's one that's a little bit cooler, and then
Speaker 3: they even had the cold plunges, which I was like,
Speaker 3: absolutely no interest. But I was reading this substack all
Speaker 3: about the rise in bathing because what happened was they
Speaker 3: were massive in ancient Rome, and like I've been to
Speaker 3: one in Turkey and all over the world, and due
Speaker 3: to a number of factors, including interestingly the AIDS epidemic,
Speaker 3: bath houses were closed across like the US and Europe
Speaker 3: and a lot of places, they just kind of disappeared.
Speaker 3: And also because we all got our own plumbing, so
Speaker 3: we had a bath at home, so who needs these
Speaker 3: public ones, but there's been this rise, especially post COVID,
Speaker 3: for this preventative health wellness idleness thing that we're all
Speaker 3: kind of interested in. I found that funny because it's
Speaker 3: also turned into In this sub stack, it said it's
Speaker 3: turned into this hydrotherapy meat circuit training. You see some
Speaker 3: people go and they've got to do cold lunch hop
Speaker 3: plunch it.
Speaker 4: And it was saying, no, no, The point of the
Speaker 4: bath house is that you sit no phone.
Speaker 1: You literally can't take your phone exactly.
Speaker 3: You have to just be and it's about boredom and
Speaker 3: letting your mind rest.
Speaker 4: And even the ancient.
Speaker 3: Romans would talk about how they got ideas and stuff
Speaker 3: in their bars.
Speaker 2: We don't have any of these down my way. I'm
Speaker 2: going to come to Sydney just for a bath day.
Speaker 2: That's great.
Speaker 6: I did just go to one in Brisbane because I
Speaker 6: went to Brisbane on a quick trip and the first
Speaker 6: thing I looked up was whether or not there was
Speaker 6: a bath house.
Speaker 1: There was a spectacular one.
Speaker 4: Because you used to live in Japan.
Speaker 6: Thank you, thanks for bringing that up. I'm so did
Speaker 6: you go yeah all the time. Fact, that's where I
Speaker 6: got into it. Typically there, it's very common once a week,
Speaker 6: say to go with your family to the bath house.
Speaker 3: As a family. So it's not single family.
Speaker 1: Actually it is divided into sexes. There.
Speaker 6: A fun fact is that in Japan they did bathe
Speaker 6: nude co ed until the Americans came in the late
Speaker 6: nineteenth century and made it weird and they're like, oh,
Speaker 6: we should put clothes on. They made it weird, but
Speaker 6: it's a very family activity.
Speaker 3: I did one in Turkey years ago. I've never forgotten about.
Speaker 3: Where they wash your hair and they exfoliate. I remember
Speaker 3: watching things come off my skin. This is amazing.
Speaker 1: Koreans are also great at that too.
Speaker 4: I was silk. I came out just like sliding all
Speaker 4: over the place. I would love it.
Speaker 1: I don't think Western cultures know how to exfoliate it.
Speaker 2: No, So I interviewed Elizabeth Gilbert a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 5: You haven't stopped talking about. I know I was a
Speaker 5: little bit obsessed. I did it for a special episode
Speaker 5: of No Filter. I don't know that there would be
Speaker 5: many out loud as. You've never heard of Liz Gilbert,
Speaker 5: but if you haven't, she wrote Eat, Pray, Love right,
Speaker 5: so almost twenty years ago now, and that's one of
Speaker 5: those rare books that just exploded into a cultural thing, right,
Speaker 5: millions and millions of copies, Western women all over the
Speaker 5: place going I need to go and find myself somewhere.
Speaker 3: She really contributed to the over tourism of Balie.
Speaker 5: She did. Julia Roberts played her in a movie. Anyway,
Speaker 5: we didn't talk about any of that, Right, She's become
Speaker 5: obviously a very big sort of cultural figure in a
Speaker 5: certain kind of I hate to say self helpy world,
Speaker 5: but probably in that self helpy universe, right, And not
Speaker 5: very many of us have much in common with Liz Gilbert.
Speaker 5: I wouldn't say she's exceptionally rich these days. You know,
Speaker 5: she's had a life of many extremes that are documented
Speaker 5: in her books. But I reckon that quite a lot
Speaker 5: of women would have a little bell ringing in their
Speaker 5: head when she talks about what her new book is about,
Speaker 5: which is about being a sex and love addict. So
Speaker 5: at the front of this book, her book is a
Speaker 5: memoir about the last few years of her life, well
Speaker 5: actually the last decade or so of her life, including
Speaker 5: her relationship with Raya Elias, who she If you followed
Speaker 5: her on social you would know all these things, but
Speaker 5: if you didn't. She famously left her second husband for Raya.
Speaker 5: Raya was her best friend of many years, but when
Speaker 5: she was diagnosed with cancer, Liz realized that actually she
Speaker 5: was in love with Raya and this was a romantic relationship,
Speaker 5: and they got together and Liz was with her until
Speaker 5: she died, and a whole lot of shit went down.
Speaker 5: And that's what the book's about. But also it's about
Speaker 5: sex and love addiction, which I reckon lots of women
Speaker 5: will be like hmmm. At the front of this book,
Speaker 5: she says, I am a sex and love addict. I
Speaker 5: have caused tremendous harm to myself and others through my
Speaker 5: decades of sex and love addiction. I have inserted myself
Speaker 5: into other people's relationships, and I've broken up families. I
Speaker 5: have lied to myself and others. I have hurt people
Speaker 5: who I promised to cherish. I have crossed boundaries with friends.
Speaker 5: I've run away from people who cared about me and
Speaker 5: towards people who didn't. I've cheated on people and allowed
Speaker 5: myself to be cheated on. I've tried to buy love
Speaker 5: with money. She goes on, I've committed and accepted shameful objectification.
Speaker 5: I've used people's bodies as drugs, both sedatives and stimulants.
Speaker 5: I've treated my own body with terrible disrespect, and I
Speaker 5: have never been able to stop. Now, what do you
Speaker 5: think when you hear that?
Speaker 3: There were elements of what she said there and also
Speaker 3: in interviews I've been reading over the last few weeks
Speaker 3: where I thought, I find that deeply relatable. She said
Speaker 3: that she has felt lost in the endless search for connection,
Speaker 3: and I thought, yeah, I think that's a deeply human experience.
Speaker 4: But when I.
Speaker 3: Hear something like that and she gets into the details
Speaker 3: of how she behaved, I stopped relating with a lot
Speaker 3: of what she was talking about and thought, oh, I
Speaker 3: actually think I've been in relationships with people who have
Speaker 3: had sex and love addictions.
Speaker 2: You know people who or I know people.
Speaker 3: And I think that for me, the biggest red flag
Speaker 3: has been in fidelity and a really fast on intense
Speaker 3: relationship that when the whether it's dopamine or the adrenaline
Speaker 3: that kicks off a relationship, once that begins to settle,
Speaker 3: the person seems to lose interest and go and find
Speaker 3: it somewhere else, which I suppose is very much like
Speaker 3: an addiction like they're looking for another hit, like a
Speaker 3: hit for someone to validate them in a new way
Speaker 3: that one partner can't consistently do.
Speaker 5: The parallels that she paints a lot in this book
Speaker 5: because Rayo was a drug addict right who'd been in
Speaker 5: recovery for a lot of years but lapsed in the
Speaker 5: last months of her life.
Speaker 2: Really, she says, addicts of.
Speaker 5: All kinds use substances and things to take their pain away,
Speaker 5: to make them feel better, and love and sex addicts
Speaker 5: do that with relationships. One of the problems with it
Speaker 5: is is we all idolize this level of romantic So
Speaker 5: just a couple of things, she says, are quite typical
Speaker 5: of the love and sex addict that might ring bells
Speaker 5: right overlapping relationships so often not ending one too, you've
Speaker 5: got another one to go to, throwing yourself into them,
Speaker 5: completely pouring all your time and resources into them. And
Speaker 5: she says women in particular, we're programmed to give, give, give,
Speaker 5: so it's something that women are more likely to do often,
Speaker 5: this idea that this relationship will make everything great, like.
Speaker 3: He will heal me, This will heal me, My life will.
Speaker 5: Be fabulous because now I am loved this person will
Speaker 5: fix everything. But then, as you've sort of said Jesse,
Speaker 5: as the haze clears and as she points out, someone
Speaker 5: has to get up and go to work or do
Speaker 5: other things for their family, or just basically go back
Speaker 5: to life. The enrangement of abandonment where you're kind of like,
Speaker 5: after all I did for you, and now you haven't
Speaker 5: fixed me, and you're furious and you move on to
Speaker 5: the next partner. I think I was a bit like
Speaker 5: that in my youth, so I probably wasn't an addict,
Speaker 5: but I know people like that.
Speaker 6: Okay, but aren't we just papologizing bad decisions here? Like
Speaker 6: the thing that I can't get on board with is
Speaker 6: in using the language of addiction. It's almost like grafting
Speaker 6: her bad decisions onto what is more of a medical issue.
Speaker 6: Another person who's called themselves a sex addict is Harvey Weinstein.
Speaker 6: That was his big excuse when he was found out.
Speaker 6: He said, I'm a sex addict and going to rehab
Speaker 6: now that he was thrown in prison. And obviously Liz
Speaker 6: Gilbert hasn't done anything wrong in a criminal way, but
Speaker 6: he used it sort of like an excuse, sort of
Speaker 6: like to say, I couldn't help myself. And what I
Speaker 6: find difficult about that is we all have these neurotransmitters
Speaker 6: in our brain that are triggered when we fall in LoVa,
Speaker 6: when we're attracted to someone. We've all got to deal
Speaker 6: with that flood of dopamine, and we all want more
Speaker 6: of it. It feels really good to fall in love.
Speaker 6: I think we can all agree on that. But the
Speaker 6: Liz Gilberts and Harvey Weinstein's of the world as saying,
Speaker 6: but I wanted more of it because it felt really good.
Speaker 3: Can both be true though, because it's like I enjoy
Speaker 3: a glass of wine, right, but I don't enjoy a
Speaker 3: glass of wine as much as someone who has a
Speaker 3: real dependence on alcohol. And that doesn't absolve that person
Speaker 3: from getting behind the wheel. It doesn't absolve that person
Speaker 3: from acting violently if they've had too much to drink.
Speaker 3: But there are clearly people who are more predisposed to
Speaker 3: addiction and to chasing those highs.
Speaker 5: And also it's the glass of wine analogy. You can
Speaker 5: have a glass of wine or two glass of wine,
Speaker 5: but not have to keep going. And I guess her
Speaker 5: point is that we might have all experienced the highs
Speaker 5: of the dopamine highs of love and lust. Let's hope
Speaker 5: we have at some point in our lives and wanted
Speaker 5: to chase it again. But some people are less like
Speaker 5: just can't not. I mean, I get your Weinstein example,
Speaker 5: and I think that, just like lots of addictions and
Speaker 5: mental health conditions, it can be used as an excuse.
Speaker 5: But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Speaker 1: No, that's a good point.
Speaker 6: You know, the DSM, it's this book that has all
Speaker 6: the psychological conditions, and that's sort of what is recognized
Speaker 6: by health insurance companies and governments. In order to assess
Speaker 6: psychological conditions. They looked into whether or not to include
Speaker 6: love and sex addiction in the GSM. It is not
Speaker 6: in the DSM, and the reason is because there are
Speaker 6: no physical symptoms of the drawal.
Speaker 1: So there is a big.
Speaker 6: Difference between an alcohol addiction and the love and sex addiction.
Speaker 3: Because I find that interesting too, because there's an I
Speaker 3: think it was in an interview I was reading with
Speaker 3: Elizabeth Gilbert where she was saying, it's not an exaggeration.
Speaker 3: The closest I've ever come to both suicide and murder
Speaker 3: was because of my addiction to another person and She
Speaker 3: says people kill themselves and each other every day because
Speaker 3: of relationship fixation and obsession. People routinely lose everything their health, serenity, jobs, money,
Speaker 3: families because of romantic devastation and dysfunction, and still they
Speaker 3: have trouble walking away. And I got to the end
Speaker 3: of that sentence and I went, I am uncomfortable with
Speaker 3: a narrative that says that domestic violence is the first
Speaker 3: thing my mind goes to. There people who physically hurt
Speaker 3: or endanger people they purport to love. I feel very
Speaker 3: uncomfortable putting a love and sex addiction, but I label
Speaker 3: on that.
Speaker 5: Don't think you have to like it's interesting your point, Amelia, Like,
Speaker 5: of course you could say there's no physical.
Speaker 2: Withdrawal, so therefore it can't be a real addiction.
Speaker 5: But we all know there's a whole lot of gray
Speaker 5: area problem, red flag drinking and all kinds of substance
Speaker 5: abuse that wouldn't necessarily fit that definition, right. And I
Speaker 5: think it really rang bells for me because it's the
Speaker 5: chasing of the high that I really understand from people
Speaker 5: around me, and the obsession. It's like the way I
Speaker 5: feel every time I see people who are always on Instagram.
Speaker 2: Going, I am more in love than I have ever been.
Speaker 5: This is unbelievable. This is gonna fast on, fast off obsession.
Speaker 5: Limerens like, we all get.
Speaker 3: It, and why we're all so skeptical when we see
Speaker 3: it too, because it feels dangerous.
Speaker 5: And what Gilbert was saying is that for her, after
Speaker 5: Raya's death, what she realized was this big, glorious love
Speaker 5: story narrative that she'd told herself and the world was true.
Speaker 5: They were deeply in love and they had this amazing relationship.
Speaker 5: But the code dependent because she says that women are
Speaker 5: generally more comfortable with the word codependent, but it's the
Speaker 5: same thing.
Speaker 2: Really.
Speaker 5: She says, she knows lots of women are uncomfortable saying
Speaker 5: sex addiction, but she says, I've used I learned early,
Speaker 5: and lots of women do that. You can use sex
Speaker 5: to control people and get people to do what you want.
Speaker 5: And so you know, she thinks it's absolutely valid to
Speaker 5: be in there. She's like, that was a big love story,
Speaker 5: but we're just so comfortable with that narrative. We overlook
Speaker 5: all the messes and the toxicity and the codependence. And
Speaker 5: I get that anyway, when I interviewed her. I said,
Speaker 5: now you are aware of this and living a sober life,
Speaker 5: as she calls it, from sex and love. I said,
Speaker 5: does that mean you have to stay single forever? And
Speaker 5: she said no, but if I was going to date again,
Speaker 5: because she's been on her own now after her dad,
Speaker 5: she went on what she calls a binge, and some
Speaker 5: people who are deep in this story would remember her
Speaker 5: posting a picture of being with a guy not long
Speaker 5: after Raya died and being like, I've found love again.
Speaker 5: She now says that was very much a binge. Anyway,
Speaker 5: when I said to it, do you have to stay
Speaker 5: sober and single and alone?
Speaker 2: This is what she said.
Speaker 7: I'm not sure that anyone would recommend partnering up with me,
Speaker 7: you know what I mean, Like if like, does anyone.
Speaker 1: Really want to be my fourth spouse?
Speaker 2: You know, like, does.
Speaker 7: Anybody like does anybody really want to tackle this? Like?
Speaker 7: I think it's a public service for me, honestly to
Speaker 7: love people in a different way, and to love people
Speaker 7: in a way where I can show up in truly
Speaker 7: generous love, which I'm great at as a friend, and
Speaker 7: I'm great at as a family member, and I'm great
Speaker 7: at as a community member.
Speaker 1: But if that.
Speaker 7: Should change, then I've got this sober dating plan that
Speaker 7: includes items like no two week long first dates, like
Speaker 7: You're not going to go on a date with somebody
Speaker 7: and two weeks later they're living with you, Like we're
Speaker 7: not doing that. Like no opening bank accounts for people,
Speaker 7: like no lavish gifts to try to seduce. No, no
Speaker 7: going on big, glamorous, romantic trips with someone who I've
Speaker 7: only known for a month, because I've got to stay
Speaker 7: in reality and make sure that, like anyone can fall
Speaker 7: in love with someone on a tropical island, we have
Speaker 7: to see whether this actually works in the real world.
Speaker 7: And no constant texting between dates, because I can get
Speaker 7: sucked into that and lost in that, and I have
Speaker 7: to go like if I'm going to go on a date,
Speaker 7: I have to come home afterwards and I won't see
Speaker 7: you again for a week. Because I need to remember
Speaker 7: that I love my life. If I need to remember
Speaker 7: that I have friends, that I have a dog, that
Speaker 7: I have a career, you know, all these things that
Speaker 7: I throw away when I fall into desperate obsession and
Speaker 7: fixation on somebody, I've got to hold onto. So that's
Speaker 7: a plan that's in place.
Speaker 3: So apparently that's another sign as well that you might
Speaker 3: be someone struggling with love and sex addiction. In some
Speaker 3: of the articles I read about it, if you're someone
Speaker 3: who goes through a periods of going I'm not dating dating,
Speaker 3: I have to go completely stone cold not see anyone.
Speaker 3: That feels like the only way you can take control,
Speaker 3: because you know you can't half do it.
Speaker 6: I guess what I'm struggling with is that by using
Speaker 6: the word addiction, she's then sort of like implying that
Speaker 6: she needs a sort of recovery plan and that's what
Speaker 6: she just has outlined to wholly hear, or an addiction
Speaker 6: management plan. It makes me think of this essay that
Speaker 6: was in The New York a couple of weeks ago
Speaker 6: by Gia Tolantino, which was to coincide with the book release.
Speaker 6: It was called Elizabeth Gilbert's Latest Epiphanies, and she makes
Speaker 6: the point that Elizabeth Gilbert has become really a self
Speaker 6: help writer, as you kind of gestured to it the beginning, Holly,
Speaker 6: and what she's selling is not just beautiful writing. She's
Speaker 6: got a ton of that, and not just a sort
Speaker 6: of really compelling story, but also almost like tips for
Speaker 6: how to live a better life. And by using the
Speaker 6: word addiction, she's saying, I'm going to teach you how
Speaker 6: to not make these bad decisions anymore. But maybe it's
Speaker 6: just a matter of every decision you make trying to
Speaker 6: make a better one, rather than having an addiction management plan.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I wondered too. I mean, I know the
Speaker 3: book is very complex and goes in a lot of
Speaker 3: different directions, and Holly so does your interview. But I
Speaker 3: actually found the other strand of this almost more interesting.
Speaker 3: And that was the theme of Caregiver Collapse, because she
Speaker 3: talks about these feelings that she had towards Raya, and
Speaker 3: she says, you know, basically I wanted to end Raya's
Speaker 3: life or potentially and end my own. The vulnerability and
Speaker 3: the lack of shame to put that down on the page,
Speaker 3: which is going to outrage a lot of people already
Speaker 3: there are reviews and people saying you've disrespected Raya's memory
Speaker 3: by committing some of these things to paper. The reason
Speaker 3: I really respect that is I think that will speak
Speaker 3: to a lot of people. Not that people do it,
Speaker 3: but the intensity of the caregiver relationship, whether or not
Speaker 3: you call yourself an addict, the way in which your
Speaker 3: boundaries disappear, the burnout, like I cannot imagine what it
Speaker 3: would be to care for someone dying of cancer.
Speaker 5: I agree obviously one hundred percent, and that part of
Speaker 5: the book is so powerful and so interesting. But it's
Speaker 5: also very specific, like that particular example is very specific
Speaker 5: to what they were going through. But what I really like,
Speaker 5: I take all the criticism about Liz Gilbert being a
Speaker 5: guru and all those things, but the honesty in all
Speaker 5: of this, I just think is breathtaking Because admitting that you,
Speaker 5: you know, when you fall in love with someone, you
Speaker 5: try and control them again, is something that I know
Speaker 5: a lot of people will relate to having had that
Speaker 5: done to them, you know. And sometimes that looks like generosity,
Speaker 5: and sometimes that looks like caregiving, and sometimes it looks
Speaker 5: like whisking them away on holiday or whatever it is,
Speaker 5: or texting you every minute or all of those things.
Speaker 5: I just think is really really bold. I think it's
Speaker 5: really bold to be able to say I recognize that
Speaker 5: I am part of this, this is what I try
Speaker 5: and do to people in the name of love. I
Speaker 5: just really admire it. You know, when you listen to
Speaker 5: those list of things that she says she can't do.
Speaker 2: Some of it, obviously is very.
Speaker 5: Unrelatable, like lavishing money on people and all that kind
Speaker 5: of stuff is not stuff that we're doing. Buying range Rover, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 5: she bought in Ray's last day, she bought a Rolex
Speaker 5: and a Range Rover in the apartment and da da
Speaker 5: da da da. But also I think that what's more
Speaker 5: relatable though, for many people, is like texting all the time,
Speaker 5: allowing yourself to be swept up in this idea that
Speaker 5: this is it, this is real, and this time it's
Speaker 5: going to be different, and this time it's going to
Speaker 5: be different.
Speaker 2: I just think a lot of us live our lives
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 3: If this segment brought up any issues for you, then
Speaker 3: there are some resources in our show notes.
Speaker 5: And if you want to listen to the interview, it's
Speaker 5: on a No fil a special episode of No Filter
Speaker 5: that dropped yesterday out Louders.
Speaker 3: In a moment we sat down with a Tarot card
Speaker 3: reader to explore our curiosity and cynicism and of course
Speaker 3: to get a cheeky glimpse into the future. We decided
Speaker 3: to do something a bit different today and by way
Speaker 3: I mean me. I forced us all to sit down
Speaker 3: with a tarot card reader. A little while ago, this
Speaker 3: tarot card reader came in. Her name is Evelyn. She
Speaker 3: came into the office and she did readings and everyone
Speaker 3: who saw her just went that blew my mind. That
Speaker 3: was incredible. They had these stories that just went around
Speaker 3: the office. So next time she came in, I booked in.
Speaker 3: I'd never seen tarat card read it before. She drew
Speaker 3: a card that said, your mum's having issues with sleep.
Speaker 3: I didn't know she was having issues with sleep, I
Speaker 3: asked her.
Speaker 4: She said, oh yeah, I am, Oh wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, something about my brothers and conversations they were having
Speaker 3: about something they were going to do together, something about
Speaker 3: our holiday I was going on and where I was
Speaker 3: going to go when my plans for the next twelve
Speaker 3: months really spot on, and I ran out and I
Speaker 3: went may. I saw this terrort card reader and she
Speaker 3: is nothing if not common, And so when she realized
Speaker 3: I loved it, she pushed the next person out of
Speaker 3: the way went in also mind blown. So I decided
Speaker 3: that we should get Evelyn in.
Speaker 2: Yes she did. First, how did you feel about that?
Speaker 6: I felt fine about it, But then my feelings changed,
Speaker 6: but set it up.
Speaker 3: So I was like, why don't we get Evelyn in,
Speaker 3: tell us what's gonna happen in the future. You know what, guys,
Speaker 3: we should just do personal readings and broadcast them to
Speaker 3: the world.
Speaker 2: Great idea.
Speaker 3: And I just saw this expressions on people's faces and
Speaker 3: I was like, guys, I think this will be great content.
Speaker 3: And so what we did is last week we invited
Speaker 3: her into our studio. We asked a lot of questions.
Speaker 3: We have some silly questions. We asked about the future
Speaker 3: of the show, we asked about Maya, and then we
Speaker 3: did have personal readings. Amelia, tell me why your feelings changed.
Speaker 3: Had you ever seen a Tara I'd read it before.
Speaker 1: No, I hadn't.
Speaker 6: I've always been interested in it. It's obviously been around
Speaker 6: for centuries. I mean, this must be something to it.
Speaker 6: I felt fine about it. But then what really surprised
Speaker 6: me is the day rolled around and Everylyn came in,
Speaker 6: and all of a sudden, I started to feel incredibly anxious,
Speaker 6: like in a way that I could not have predicted.
Speaker 6: People could tell in the room that producers are just like,
Speaker 6: are you okay? Like I was just I really clenched up.
Speaker 6: I felt really tense.
Speaker 4: Do you know why.
Speaker 6: I think it's because, whether or not you bully even it,
Speaker 6: there's a possibility that this person is going to tell
Speaker 6: you something about the future that you don't want to hear,
Speaker 6: and that lack of control was really scary to me.
Speaker 6: I just didn't know. You don't normally have a conversation
Speaker 6: with someone where they could say anything about your life
Speaker 6: and you just have to sort of nod and take
Speaker 6: it because this is what's happening is predestined. So I
Speaker 6: think it really brought up issues for me in terms
Speaker 6: of my kind of control freak personality and being told
Speaker 6: things that I maybe didn't want to hear. So I
Speaker 6: actually said to her, can you not tell me anything bad.
Speaker 1: About the future?
Speaker 6: And She's like, oh, yeah, that's a very common request
Speaker 6: and I can absolutely fulfill that.
Speaker 3: How about you, Holly, I feel like I tried to
Speaker 3: get your boorday.
Speaker 2: I was definitely gay.
Speaker 5: I'm not necessarily a believer, and I'm also not necessarily
Speaker 5: a skeptic. I've spoken on the show before about how
Speaker 5: my late mother in law was a psychic, so that
Speaker 5: opened my mind a lot too various possibilities of You know,
Speaker 5: I guess I'm a gray area person, right, So I
Speaker 5: was open to Evelyn, but I was trying to be
Speaker 5: take it the grain of salt.
Speaker 1: Did you get nervous too?
Speaker 2: You know what?
Speaker 5: She was so loved, which I think must be one
Speaker 5: of the skills of people who do this kind of work.
Speaker 5: She was very good at putting us at ease, or
Speaker 5: at least because I went in very like boundaried in
Speaker 5: my head. But within five minutes I was just asking
Speaker 5: her everything. So when if anyone listens to my private reader,
Speaker 5: I apologize and advanced.
Speaker 2: For that because she was very good at making me relax.
Speaker 5: I came out of there going, oh great, great, great,
Speaker 5: But since then I've kind of chilled out about it
Speaker 5: and gone some of that, yes, some of that.
Speaker 3: No, Okay, all right, it is time to hear how
Speaker 3: a little session with Evelyn went. Today we have psychic
Speaker 3: and Taro reader Evelyn Santorro with us. Evelyn, welcome, Thank you,
Speaker 3: it's so exciting to be here today.
Speaker 4: Oh we are so excited to have you.
Speaker 3: I wanted to ask to begin with, how did you
Speaker 3: get into taro? Where did the interest come from?
Speaker 8: It was very very young and growing up. I used
Speaker 8: to love reading, and my family were avid readers. My
Speaker 8: mum was very much into science and my dad was
Speaker 8: into politics and history, and so we spent a lot
Speaker 8: of time in old bookstores. And I was just gravitating.
Speaker 8: I mean, in between Judy Bloom and the Babysitters Club,
Speaker 8: I'd gravitate towards what is now known as the self
Speaker 8: help section or the spirituality section, and back then was
Speaker 8: known as the mystical or the occult. And I just
Speaker 8: was drawn to these tarot carts and I'd pick them
Speaker 8: up and look at them and then read. And then
Speaker 8: after many many months, my mom came home with them
Speaker 8: and said, this is something that you might want to
Speaker 8: know more about or discover more about. And then we
Speaker 8: just had someone in our neighborhood. I was growing up
Speaker 8: in Argentina, so I grew up in South America. The
Speaker 8: woman took me under her wing, and so she helped
Speaker 8: guide me along for about four or five years, and
Speaker 8: then she passed and then I continued the journey on
Speaker 8: my own.
Speaker 4: So that's how I started.
Speaker 3: And do you think that it's learned or is there
Speaker 3: something innate? Like do you feel as though even that
Speaker 3: instinct you had to gravitate towards it. Is it something
Speaker 3: you feel like you've always had.
Speaker 8: Perhaps, But I think everyone has something. I think we
Speaker 8: all have some sort of intuition. And for me, the
Speaker 8: tarot is just a tool that taps into something that
Speaker 8: then unlocks some answers. For others, I know people who
Speaker 8: might be able to read your coffee cup, for example,
Speaker 8: or they might do pal mystery or pick up a
Speaker 8: bit of jewelry and give you information based on that.
Speaker 8: But for me it was the tarot. But I really
Speaker 8: believe everyone has something that's in them already. It's whether
Speaker 8: you pay attention to it or not.
Speaker 2: How does taro work?
Speaker 5: Like basically, if somebody comes for a reading and we're
Speaker 5: about to do that, how does it work?
Speaker 8: So when you come for a reading, what usually would
Speaker 8: happen is the way I do the reading is I
Speaker 8: ask your date of birth and then pick up the
Speaker 8: energy around your date of birth, which will give me
Speaker 8: what's going on for you at the moment. So the
Speaker 8: taro is a bit of a storytelling tool. Where have
Speaker 8: you come from, where are you at the moment, and
Speaker 8: where are you headed? And what will bubble up first?
Speaker 8: So we do a general reading until you pick ten
Speaker 8: cards and.
Speaker 1: Your general reading.
Speaker 8: It's as if the universe gives you what you want
Speaker 8: to know and a little extra of what you may
Speaker 8: be ignoring. So it's like, well, I'm here to know
Speaker 8: about love well, but there might be something more about
Speaker 8: what direction you're going in your career, for example, or
Speaker 8: you're taking a trip, or there's a baby coming or
Speaker 8: something like that, and then you can ask any questions.
Speaker 6: What happens if you pull bad cards. That's what's always
Speaker 6: sort of scared me is the prospect of what if
Speaker 6: I hear something I don't want to hear, how do
Speaker 6: you manage that.
Speaker 8: I've had experiences with people who would come in and
Speaker 8: are very fearful, and so usually you can ask that
Speaker 8: you can say there's something that you're scared about hearing today.
Speaker 8: Usually it's about people departing close ones or if there's
Speaker 8: an illness or something like that. But usually people come
Speaker 8: in and say, I just want to know. I want
Speaker 8: to know. People curious and that's why they seek a reader.
Speaker 3: There's ethics around if you pull a card and it's like,
Speaker 3: you know, especially death, I mean, that's the biggest question
Speaker 3: that people often have. You you have boundaries around whether
Speaker 3: you will communicate that people or not.
Speaker 1: Yes, definitely, yeah.
Speaker 3: And so do you feel like people have the right
Speaker 3: to know that or you kind of hold it back.
Speaker 1: It depends on the client.
Speaker 8: So There'll be times where someone will come in and
Speaker 8: I'll say something like there might be some sad news
Speaker 8: coming on this side of the family or a friend,
Speaker 8: and probe a little on whether they're open to hearing,
Speaker 8: and if they're not, then I just sit back. It
Speaker 8: all depends on how well you know the person. So
Speaker 8: I have clients that I've known for many, many years
Speaker 8: and others that are brand new. So it's tough. It's
Speaker 8: a tough territory.
Speaker 5: Does everybody kind of want to know the same things?
Speaker 5: Like what are the most common questions you get asked?
Speaker 5: And then what are some of the more unusual questions
Speaker 5: you've been asked.
Speaker 8: Look, I've been doing professional readings for a long time,
Speaker 8: since I was twenty two. The main ones are the usual,
Speaker 8: the love you know, will I meet my other half?
Speaker 4: Will it go well? Health career?
Speaker 8: But then things have changed, I think so in the
Speaker 8: last ten to fifteen years there's been more of a
Speaker 8: final push on things. Trips are always a popular one.
Speaker 1: Where am I going this year?
Speaker 8: Am I able to get away? Will I have a holiday?
Speaker 8: I guess the most unusual unusual things. I've lost something,
Speaker 8: can you see where it is? I had someone come
Speaker 8: into the Mind, Body Spirit Festival a few years ago
Speaker 8: and said, I just want to know where I've left
Speaker 8: the remote control. I've tired the whole house apart.
Speaker 4: I can't find it. Where is it? Is it in
Speaker 4: the kitchen?
Speaker 1: Is it here?
Speaker 8: Is it there? And I don't know if she ever
Speaker 8: found it?
Speaker 2: So you didn't know where it was.
Speaker 8: So I told her where I thought it was. So
Speaker 8: we looked at the cards. She said, Okay, I'll go
Speaker 8: back and have a look, but she can come back
Speaker 8: to let me know.
Speaker 2: So no idea.
Speaker 3: What are your three favorite cards? What cards do you really.
Speaker 4: Like to draw for people?
Speaker 8: So there are three fantastic cards out of the seventy
Speaker 8: eight to either start with or end with. And that's
Speaker 8: the World, which is a fabulous card. It means completion
Speaker 8: or it means that your goals have been realized. The
Speaker 8: other is the Magician. So if you have a challenge
Speaker 8: coming up, the Magician finds many different ways for you
Speaker 8: to get out of that problem. And to solve that problem,
Speaker 8: and it can manifest people coming into your life to
Speaker 8: help you with that issue. And the other card is
Speaker 8: the Sun. The Sun is absolute positivity. It's a lovely card.
Speaker 8: It means a period of happiness, usually after a very
Speaker 8: long period of sadness or feeling of the loss of
Speaker 8: not really knowing, of not having the right information or
Speaker 8: the tools to move ahead with whatever it is you need.
Speaker 8: So those cards are fantastic. They're resolution cards.
Speaker 6: How does what you do extend into your everyday life,
Speaker 6: Your ability to tap into your intuition in this way
Speaker 6: when you're not pulling cards for people, how does it
Speaker 6: affect how you live your life?
Speaker 1: It's really interesting.
Speaker 8: So I've been in the corporate world for a very
Speaker 8: very very long time. Tara was always something I did
Speaker 8: on the side as a weekend thing just to keep grounded,
Speaker 8: but it often seeped into my everyday life in intuition
Speaker 8: with the people that I work with. It ruined a
Speaker 8: relationship I had with a lovely psychologist. Well, I was
Speaker 8: seeing a psychologist during a really hard breakup. So it
Speaker 8: was a divorce, it was awful divorce, and so she
Speaker 8: was helping with communication after separation and so one day
Speaker 8: she was talking and I started to go off into
Speaker 8: a bit of a trance and saw an image of
Speaker 8: her hugging a male and crying. And then I stopped
Speaker 8: and I remembered she had said to me the year
Speaker 8: before I saw her for three years that she had
Speaker 8: lost her mother in law, and so I thought, oh,
Speaker 8: this must be me tapping into their grief. It must
Speaker 8: be her husband. And so I said, oh, how's your
Speaker 8: husband doing the loss of his mum, And then she
Speaker 8: just blurted out that the husband had left her, that
Speaker 8: he finally could live his life freely, and after thirty
Speaker 8: three years they'd been living a lie. So it all
Speaker 8: just came out. And so suddenly the relationship of counselor
Speaker 8: or psychologist patient, yeah, it crossed that boundary. So we
Speaker 8: could no longer cont you knew that relationship, and I
Speaker 8: had to see another psychologist.
Speaker 5: That yeah, okay, we have some questions about our office ghost,
Speaker 5: don't we.
Speaker 4: Yes, we do.
Speaker 3: Okay, so you have come in. And before you came in,
Speaker 3: there were people in the office who were here when
Speaker 3: we were doing the office move, and they went, there's
Speaker 3: some weird stuff happening. And then you came in and
Speaker 3: we had a few questions. What did you sense when
Speaker 3: you came into the office?
Speaker 8: A heavy feeling in three different spots of the office.
Speaker 8: So the office is quite a lovely, cheery place, especially
Speaker 8: in the back area. There's a lot of creativity where
Speaker 8: somewhere near that place called the Lemonade.
Speaker 2: Room, yep, that's us where they're there.
Speaker 8: That's a fabulous spot. But then there are other spots
Speaker 8: where I'd walk around and that I'd feel different things.
Speaker 8: And it wasn't just because of the building. There were
Speaker 8: different things going on for different people, and I could
Speaker 8: separate out what was there because of the person. But
Speaker 8: this was a different sense. It was the sense of
Speaker 8: something that shouldn't be here, needed to transcend and move on.
Speaker 8: But it's still stuck. And that's in the kitchen, it's
Speaker 8: in that little office space and for Mia and in
Speaker 8: your other studio.
Speaker 3: I mean, people are now kind of looking out for
Speaker 3: things and experiencing certain things. But what should people do,
Speaker 3: Like are we meant to encourage this like ghost to
Speaker 3: move on? Do we say hi to her when we
Speaker 3: walk in in the morning, Like what would you recommend
Speaker 3: you invite it to move on to where it needs
Speaker 3: to be so if it's a she and if you
Speaker 3: named her.
Speaker 5: Yes, because this is a female, mostly female workplace. But
Speaker 5: you're right, like, there's no, we don't know that.
Speaker 4: We don't we don't, we don't know that.
Speaker 8: Yeah, so you could definitely ask her to go where
Speaker 8: she needs to be gently in a nice way. Sometimes
Speaker 8: they're just stuck, not knowing how to move on, why
Speaker 8: to move on, or feeling like they haven't resolved something here.
Speaker 8: There's that, but they will only go if they want to.
Speaker 8: It's not like we have any power to really do
Speaker 8: anything on that.
Speaker 3: I had an additional question about Taro in that it's
Speaker 3: about the president, it's about the future. Can you connect
Speaker 3: with a lot of people, I imagine, go at times
Speaker 3: of grief if they've lost someone just Taro also allow
Speaker 3: you to connect with people who have passed.
Speaker 8: I think that happens not through Taro, but through the person.
Speaker 8: So if the person has mediumship, I've connected with people
Speaker 8: that have passed very rarely, but that's because I'm not
Speaker 8: a person that goes after that contact.
Speaker 4: I know that there are people who.
Speaker 8: Love to go to mediums and they will say, Okay,
Speaker 8: I'm here, let's see who comes through I'm not one
Speaker 8: for that. I think that if the person comes through,
Speaker 8: it's for a specific reason. There's an unresolved issue, there's
Speaker 8: a message of comfort because you're going through something huge
Speaker 8: on this side, and maybe that message is for you
Speaker 8: to continue to.
Speaker 4: Resolve whatever it is you need to.
Speaker 8: And move on. But it isn't something that I would
Speaker 8: seek or would want from my clients.
Speaker 5: Can I ask you what we're about to do? Someestion
Speaker 5: for the outlauders, for each of us. But there will
Speaker 5: be some outlouders listening to this, Evelyn, who are like,
Speaker 5: what a load of nonsense?
Speaker 2: Yes? What a load of tosh?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 5: And you must get that quite a bit right, Like
Speaker 5: what do you say to the skeptics, Like is this
Speaker 5: the sort of if you believe, then you believe? And
Speaker 5: if you don't, then why are you worried about it?
Speaker 5: Like how do you handle that?
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 8: I think it's good to be a skeptic. I think
Speaker 8: that's great because we should be this way with everything
Speaker 8: in life. When you meet someone and you fall in love,
Speaker 8: you need to have that caution, don't you. I mean,
Speaker 8: you don't just rushing to everything. It's the same sort
Speaker 8: of thing with this I mean, when you're going to
Speaker 8: see a psychic or whoever, you need to go with
Speaker 8: caution and take things with a grain of salt. It's
Speaker 8: the same when you go and ask for financial information,
Speaker 8: show me the evidence. I guess, right, So someone will
Speaker 8: say to you, I'm great, I'm going to make you
Speaker 8: a million dollars follow my financial advice. Well, show me
Speaker 8: your portfolio. What have you done for other clients? I mean,
Speaker 8: this is the same thing in terms of being skeptic
Speaker 8: because of the subject matter. Is there something out there?
Speaker 8: I don't believe that. I guess that's up to each person.
Speaker 8: I've seen a lot of things that I can't explain.
Speaker 8: I can't say that I'm not a believer, but I
Speaker 8: can't say that I'm one hundred percent believer. And I'm
Speaker 8: going to go out and evangelize and convince others either.
Speaker 8: Everyone has their own journey, Thank.
Speaker 2: You so much. So are we going to pull some
Speaker 2: cards just for it?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 2: Yes, questions from now.
Speaker 3: We've got a few sort of silly light questions that
Speaker 3: we're going to start with that are specific to ask
Speaker 3: in the out louders. Why don't Holly do you want
Speaker 3: to go first?
Speaker 7: Yes?
Speaker 2: So, what do I need to do? Evelyn?
Speaker 5: So these are questions, so we're not going to get
Speaker 5: heavy in this one.
Speaker 2: That's for later.
Speaker 5: That's for later. These are some questions that I know
Speaker 5: the out louders want to know. Okay, what should I do?
Speaker 8: So you need to shuffle the cards, think of the
Speaker 8: out louders. Their fate is in your hands.
Speaker 2: Very grateful to the out Louders. Not a very good shuffler,
Speaker 2: as you can see. That's good no Vegas blackjack for me.
Speaker 4: So what do we need to what's your question?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 5: So one of the first, very important questions. I'm famous
Speaker 5: in the out loud world for being a bit obsessed
Speaker 5: with the royals. Oh Am, I ever going to get
Speaker 5: a jar of Megan Michael's jam.
Speaker 8: So I need you to spread those out, all of them. Yes,
Speaker 8: and let's pick three. I need you to think of
Speaker 8: the jam.
Speaker 5: Okay, I'm visualizing the jam. I actually tried to order
Speaker 5: some last night. The raspberry was all gone. There was
Speaker 5: only marmalade, and then they wouldn't ship it here anyway.
Speaker 4: Okay, Okay, Now does she pick pick three?
Speaker 1: Pick three?
Speaker 8: Which ones are calling to? Okay, let's see which ones?
Speaker 2: Do I turn them over or do you turn them over?
Speaker 1: Hand them over less?
Speaker 8: Let's see, so we've got the full.
Speaker 2: Oh god, that's not a surprise.
Speaker 1: The fool is.
Speaker 8: First, the Queen of Wan's and the moon. You are
Speaker 8: going to get a jar of jam, but the moon
Speaker 8: shows me that it isn't the one you want. So
Speaker 8: you're going to be a little confused with the choice
Speaker 8: you're going to be given. It could even be one
Speaker 8: that is new. It could be a type of.
Speaker 1: Mistraw you're going to get Aprico. Yeah, it could be one.
Speaker 8: It could be the one that hasn't she's releasing new basis. Okay,
Speaker 8: So it could be one of the ones that you
Speaker 8: haven't heard of yet because there's more information coming. But
Speaker 8: Queen of One's, you will get it. It just won't
Speaker 8: be the one you're expecting.
Speaker 1: And where does the fall?
Speaker 8: The fall is the start of a new journey. So
Speaker 8: this is the very first card of the seventy eight
Speaker 8: and the reason why the fall is jumping off a
Speaker 8: cliff like that is taking a leap of faith. So
Speaker 8: you're going to make connections, connection with her and grab that.
Speaker 4: Jam maybe in the UK.
Speaker 6: In her eyes right now, I feel so.
Speaker 3: I'm going to ask a bit of a juicy out
Speaker 3: Loud great myself, Mayor and Holly have been hosting out
Speaker 3: Loud for a lot of years. We've been working together
Speaker 3: for ten years, and we've got Amelia and m who
Speaker 3: are also our hosts. And I have just a broad
Speaker 3: question about the dynamics and the relationship and what you
Speaker 3: see in our future as a.
Speaker 6: Show, okay, And can I piggyback on that and ask
Speaker 6: do you prefer yes? No?
Speaker 1: Or is it okay to ask something no? No, that's it?
Speaker 7: Okay?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: All right?
Speaker 4: So I picked three cards? Okay oop, see.
Speaker 8: So really think about that as bad as shuffling as
Speaker 8: I am.
Speaker 2: She's spreading them out.
Speaker 4: Oh that's a good card.
Speaker 8: You said that was a good card, right, it's a
Speaker 8: great card. Oh that's a great cud.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 8: So the Queen of Swords, you do have a great
Speaker 8: dynamic between you, but there is someone here with a
Speaker 8: feeling it's like you need to lift their confidence or
Speaker 8: there's a feeling there's imposter syndrome going on with one
Speaker 8: of you, one of your people. However, one that's resolved,
Speaker 8: you've got the world. It'll go very very well between you.
Speaker 8: So the world is that what I was saying before
Speaker 8: that excellent realization. And the Night of Wan's is expansion
Speaker 8: to other places, otherlands, other things.
Speaker 2: Oh Loud's going global.
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh I love there.
Speaker 8: It's very good, It's fantastic. But there's something here that
Speaker 8: needs to just be resolved. So maybe just take on
Speaker 8: that power and yeah, an.
Speaker 4: Issue with confidence maybe yes? Yeah, right, okay, I like
Speaker 4: that one a lot, thank you.
Speaker 6: So yeah, I'm feeling in for me and I've discovered
Speaker 6: recently there's a WhatsApp group that the main hosts are
Speaker 6: on and I'm not in it. Oh and my first
Speaker 6: question is will I ever be added to it? And
Speaker 6: I kind of think I know the answer that I
Speaker 6: kind of want to have them hear it and sit
Speaker 6: with their discomfort. Oh dearly thinking about this WhatsApp group
Speaker 6: and all the links I'm missing. Yep, I can see
Speaker 6: it in my mind's eye.
Speaker 8: See ah, the kind of mystery, the Queen of cups
Speaker 8: information being withheld Ace of ones. Okay, so Ace of
Speaker 8: Ones is You'll definitely be added to the group. So
Speaker 8: this is you realizing your goal.
Speaker 1: See but the.
Speaker 4: World in your hand. I finally have what I wanted.
Speaker 8: The Nine of Ones is You've made a mountain out
Speaker 8: of a mold.
Speaker 1: It wasn't that great? Comfortable with Queen of Cups and there.
Speaker 8: So Queen of Cups, she's the holder of secrets. So
Speaker 8: usually when the Queen of Cups appears, it's because you're
Speaker 8: yet to discover something. So there's information being withheld and
Speaker 8: you're about to discover information, and that's you there, Ace
Speaker 8: of ones. The goal coming through great WhatsApp.
Speaker 1: That's good is how quickly Ameliar exits.
Speaker 4: Once she's joined.
Speaker 3: It's not an interesting chat. It's just me as sending
Speaker 3: links that Holly and I like.
Speaker 1: Which I probably.
Speaker 4: Fantastic card.
Speaker 3: I have one last question, which is I would love
Speaker 3: you to pull three cards for the out loudest for
Speaker 3: the people who are listening.
Speaker 2: Is it possible to do that?
Speaker 5: Then?
Speaker 2: Tub like pick each maybe because represent.
Speaker 1: I think I think that would be best.
Speaker 2: Yes, do you want to grab the cards? Jesse or Amelia?
Speaker 1: I'm happy, Oh yeah, you better do this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll do as a host special shuffle.
Speaker 3: Because I wonder that sometimes sometimes I'm on TikTok and
Speaker 3: I see someone doing a taro reading and I'm.
Speaker 1: Like, is that how it works?
Speaker 7: Like?
Speaker 3: Do you have to be in a room with someone like,
Speaker 3: how do you find do it on zoom?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: Ah, so it's not necessarily about the energy. That's interesting.
Speaker 2: And I have one more question too, are your cards?
Speaker 5: Are these cards very particular and important to you, this
Speaker 5: particular set of cards. Yeah, so the Taro reader, you
Speaker 5: will have your cards, your cards.
Speaker 4: Let's go like this and we'll all pick one.
Speaker 5: This is for you a lot out louders, not for us,
Speaker 5: and we'll just find out what.
Speaker 2: Your vibe is.
Speaker 8: Oh wow, so you've picked very good cards. Seven of Cups.
Speaker 8: So this is all about their life and the life
Speaker 8: path and the King of Cups is all about sentimental things.
Speaker 8: So the out louders now are going through a time
Speaker 8: of great sentimentality sensitivity. Anything to do with whatever they're
Speaker 8: listening to will really affect them. So that's the King
Speaker 8: of Cups.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 8: There's lots of energy around water signs in particular, So
Speaker 8: if you're an out louder that's a Scorpio, a Pisces,
Speaker 8: or a Cancrian, this would probably really affect you because
Speaker 8: that's the card that represents them. The other thing, too,
Speaker 8: is Amelia's picked a great card for the out louders
Speaker 8: so there's great news coming for these guys in the
Speaker 8: next two weeks. So I don't know, you might have
Speaker 8: a great update for them on the show or something
Speaker 8: like that.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's the excitement, all right, two weeks. We're going
Speaker 3: to be looking out for it. We'd love to ask Evelyn.
Speaker 3: So Maya is taking a few months off and she is,
Speaker 3: which is very unusual for her, Which is very unusual.
Speaker 4: She's taking a bit of long service.
Speaker 3: Leave the out louders. They're worried about me because they're
Speaker 3: not hearing from her nearly enough. And I think we
Speaker 3: all want to know how things are going, Okay, what
Speaker 3: the future holds for her in the next few months,
Speaker 3: like she kind of had plans to travel to do
Speaker 3: some work projects. Like what do things look like for
Speaker 3: her over the next few.
Speaker 1: And if you feel any Copenhagen.
Speaker 3: Vie, Yes, whether she's going to go or not go,
Speaker 3: we're very curious. Shall I pick the car?
Speaker 8: Yeah, let's pick for her, but we've got to think
Speaker 8: about her. Yeah, okay, so we'll start with three. So
Speaker 8: what I can see for Mea at the moment is
Speaker 8: she doesn't really want to hear about anything. So that's
Speaker 8: her kind of protecting her space. See she's covering her ears.
Speaker 3: Wow, she hates what we're doing.
Speaker 8: So there's a real shutting herself off from everything. Although
Speaker 8: she's never been that like, she's never been as disconnected
Speaker 8: as now. So this is leads into the next card,
Speaker 8: the Chariot, which shows an internal discomfort for her during
Speaker 8: this time. So while she is shutting herself up and saying,
Speaker 8: I don't want to hear or listen or know what's
Speaker 8: going on. And it may not even be work, it
Speaker 8: may be other things that are going could be things
Speaker 8: going on in the media or anything else. There is
Speaker 8: a discomfort and so she will be working through that.
Speaker 8: And that's the Chariot, and it's a fantastic card to
Speaker 8: get because that actually means a lot of growth.
Speaker 4: Through discomfort, we grow.
Speaker 8: And then she has the card of strength, and Mia
Speaker 8: will be back and stronger than ever. And so her
Speaker 8: cards are quite good. Can you pick another two for me?
Speaker 8: I just want to see if that travel pops up.
Speaker 8: I mean, we're doing a very quick, short version of
Speaker 8: what you would normally do for some one's reading.
Speaker 6: No.
Speaker 8: Look, I see, wow, the Hermit card. She's really taking
Speaker 8: this time to be on her own. To grow, to
Speaker 8: think about what she needs, and to try to focus
Speaker 8: five of swords. You'll see the angel here in this
Speaker 8: card is cautioning to stay still, to contemplate, and stop
Speaker 8: being such a person that rushes around and tries to
Speaker 8: fix everything at once.
Speaker 2: That doesn't sound like me.
Speaker 3: That's amazing, that's amazing, very very interesting. I think that
Speaker 3: we don't tell me and we watch how the future
Speaker 3: pans out under the next few weeks.
Speaker 4: And months, but she won't listen anyway.
Speaker 3: Out ladders. We can't wait to see if those predictions
Speaker 3: resonated with you. And look, I am I think quite
Speaker 3: a logical science research person, but there is something I
Speaker 3: don't know what it is about this year where I
Speaker 3: quite like leaning into the unexplainable, Like I wouldn't change
Speaker 3: decisions I make or put all my stock into it,
Speaker 3: but I just it weirdly makes me feel I kind
Speaker 3: of like the idea that the future is set and
Speaker 3: I don't have to worry too much. We could have
Speaker 3: spoken to Evelyn for ours, and in fact we maybe did.
Speaker 3: We had one on one Tarry readings with her, and
Speaker 3: predictably things got quite personal. In fact, what we did
Speaker 3: is that we all left the room for each other
Speaker 3: so that it could just be us and one producer
Speaker 3: and now the outlouders and all the out louders of course,
Speaker 3: and interestingly, the first card she picked for each of
Speaker 3: us is really revealing, like it said something about our
Speaker 3: current frame of mind. What we're going to do is
Speaker 3: share those readings as subscriber episodes next week. And if
Speaker 3: you want to get in touch with Evelyn, she's in
Speaker 3: high demand because the moment the her office has her
Speaker 3: on retainer.
Speaker 4: Now she just comes in every day.
Speaker 3: She is on Instagram and we will pop a link
Speaker 3: in the show notes and out Louders, I would love you.
Speaker 3: It's a Friday, Let's have a little bit of woo.
Speaker 3: I would love the outlo is to grab to jump
Speaker 3: into the Facebook group and share what Tara card readers
Speaker 3: have told them yes and if they came.
Speaker 1: True and just your best stories.
Speaker 4: I love that stuff so much.
Speaker 6: After the break, some gripping true crime, X rated, bread making,
Speaker 6: and a whole lot of ham are recommendations this week.
Speaker 1: Truly run the Gamut.
Speaker 5: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
Speaker 5: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers.
Speaker 2: Follow the link at the show notes.
Speaker 5: To get us in your ears five days a week,
Speaker 5: and a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 6: Vibes ideas Atosphere stopping casual, something fun.
Speaker 1: This is my best recommendation.
Speaker 6: It's Friday, so we want to help set up your
Speaker 6: weekend with some of our best recommendations.
Speaker 1: Jesse, what have you got?
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm going to go first. I cannot believe we
Speaker 3: have not talked about.
Speaker 1: This documentary yet.
Speaker 3: It is all over Netflix, Unknown Number, the high School
Speaker 3: cat f Oh.
Speaker 1: I've seen that. Okay, explain what it is.
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, So it is very Netflix in the
Speaker 3: way it's made. People will understand that. But the story
Speaker 3: is wild. The setup is that there's a teenage girl
Speaker 3: named Lauren, and Lauren is it in a relationship with Owen.
Speaker 3: They're like fourteen, right, And as soon as they start dating,
Speaker 3: she gets these weird messages from an unknown number. They
Speaker 3: start to get pretty pretty threatening, as though the person
Speaker 3: sort of wants to be with Owen, and they get
Speaker 3: more and more persistent, and they end up spanning more
Speaker 3: than a year. And the weird thing about the messages
Speaker 3: is that they contain details that only someone very close
Speaker 3: to her would know. So it's often like something that
Speaker 3: happens in class, or what she's wearing, or really deep insecurities,
Speaker 3: and so all the parents take it to the school
Speaker 3: and the school goes is it this classmate or this classmate?
Speaker 3: At one point they wonder if it's Lauren herself. And
Speaker 3: it gets so bad and like so sexual and almost
Speaker 3: violent some of these threats that the FBI gets involved.
Speaker 3: And it's quite tech savvy what this person is doing.
Speaker 3: It's not just an unknown number, but it's like they're
Speaker 3: putting it through a computer that generates a different number.
Speaker 3: So you block that number and there's a new one, right,
Speaker 3: and even Owen and Lauren break up. The next person
Speaker 3: Owen see it starts getting these messages and the twist
Speaker 3: of this documentary, what everyone's talking about is who is
Speaker 3: behind it?
Speaker 6: But do we actually find out? Because I'm annoyed by
Speaker 6: Netflix documentaries that leave me hanging.
Speaker 3: Yes, I hate that when it's basically like with theories
Speaker 3: and I'm like, no, no, no, theories. Oh we find
Speaker 3: out and it gets deep and once you watch.
Speaker 2: These people like cooperating, yes.
Speaker 3: All of them, all of them are being into like everyone,
Speaker 3: and so once you watch that documentary, which you will
Speaker 3: just have a lot of feelings about. There is then
Speaker 3: an article in the cut, which is a long form
Speaker 3: feature about this that was actually written before the documentary
Speaker 3: that gives you even more details about very small town,
Speaker 3: the suspicions this sounds so they thought it was.
Speaker 1: I wonder if it's number one on Netflix, right? You wonder?
Speaker 4: It's so good?
Speaker 3: So you have to go and read that too, And
Speaker 3: if I watch it too, Can we talk about it
Speaker 3: this week? I think we have to because I can't
Speaker 3: stop thinking about it.
Speaker 6: I've got actually another kind of true crime thing. This
Speaker 6: is on Disney and it's a show called The Twisted
Speaker 6: Tale of Amanda Knox.
Speaker 3: I saw that and I wondered if i'd reach peak
Speaker 3: commander now.
Speaker 2: And I know all that story.
Speaker 6: So I actually have a really bad memory. And the
Speaker 6: best part about that is that true crime documentaries are
Speaker 6: always super surprising. So remember American Crime Story, OJ Simpson
Speaker 6: literally had no idea if he would even be found
Speaker 6: guilty or not, saying at the television as the plot
Speaker 6: twists unveiled. So maybe you need to take this recommendation
Speaker 6: with a grain of salt. But this is an extraordinary
Speaker 6: case let me explain to the one person who doesn't know,
Speaker 6: like I don't. It happened in two thousand and seven.
Speaker 6: Amanda Knox was an American student studying in Italy in Puglia.
Speaker 2: And Julia.
Speaker 6: Julia, and she spent years in prison after she was
Speaker 6: wrongfully convicted of the murder of her British roommate. And
Speaker 6: this is based on her memoir, so it's very much
Speaker 6: from her perspective. But it's sort of in that genre
Speaker 6: of like when you get caught up with law enforcement
Speaker 6: in a foreign country and how scary that is and
Speaker 6: you don't even understand what the police are saying to you.
Speaker 6: I put Bridget Jones two in that same category, and
Speaker 6: it's just really terrifying, and it looks it's not perfect.
Speaker 6: In fact, it's got some really weird stylistic decisions. On
Speaker 6: the night the murder took place, Amanda was with her
Speaker 6: Italian boyfriend watching the movie Amelie. Was that grow that
Speaker 6: we are liking, well done good, I'm glad and the
Speaker 6: whole show is weirdly and whimsically done in the style
Speaker 6: of the movie Emlie, which I know is super weird,
Speaker 6: but I do like em Lee, so I guess that's fine.
Speaker 3: Sometimes you've got to kind of mix up your true
Speaker 3: crime story.
Speaker 1: I think it's because a lot of people probably do feel.
Speaker 6: Like they know the story very well, and it's it
Speaker 6: is a very stylistic retelling, I would say, so I
Speaker 6: have been really engrossed in it.
Speaker 2: It's a series, not one.
Speaker 6: It's a series, and it's one of those ones where
Speaker 6: they're dropping week by week, so it's sort of old school.
Speaker 6: So it hasn't actually even finished yet, but lots of
Speaker 6: twists and turns are very tense.
Speaker 3: Maybe I will give that a go. Actually, I'm looking
Speaker 3: for something.
Speaker 6: If you're looking for true crime with a twist of
Speaker 6: Emily Holly, what have you got.
Speaker 2: No true crime from me? You'll be surprised to hear.
Speaker 5: So I know that no one is watching my friend
Speaker 5: Megan's season two of.
Speaker 4: It's not even on my Netflix.
Speaker 3: Like when I turn on Netflix, it doesn't even acknowledge it.
Speaker 2: It knows you too well.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it still really upsets me that this show is
Speaker 5: not called as Ever Megan. It's like or even this
Speaker 5: is Megan now discussed brand disaster because it's called with
Speaker 5: Love Megan, right, which come on, just get it up.
Speaker 6: It's actually two sign ups, Love Megan and as ever Meghan.
Speaker 1: That are two ways of email.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Anyway, she made as we've discussed on the show before
Speaker 5: she made the second season, when she made the first
Speaker 5: season of the show, it's the lifestyle cooking show. I'm
Speaker 5: not recommending the whole thing, but i am recommending if
Speaker 5: you've had a hard week, if life's just.
Speaker 2: Been a little bit shit.
Speaker 5: This week watched the last episode, episode eight with Now
Speaker 5: I'm going to get schooled on my pronunciation.
Speaker 2: Spanish isn't my strength. I'm not doing that.
Speaker 5: Jose Andres soundly, so he's a really big deal Spanish chef.
Speaker 5: And he's also the guy who started World's Central Kitchen,
Speaker 5: which is an amazing organization that goes into disaster areas
Speaker 5: and war zones, and he's started this organization basically sends
Speaker 5: chefs in and they set up kitchens and they cook
Speaker 5: meals for people, and they employ local chefs to do it.
Speaker 2: And it's a.
Speaker 5: Really really great course. They're in Gaza at the moment.
Speaker 5: They've got an aim to serve a million meals a day. Anyway,
Speaker 5: that's not what it's about. What it's about is that
Speaker 5: Jose comes to Meghan's fatsy house that isn't really a house,
Speaker 5: and his vibe is so amazingly strong.
Speaker 4: Does he make something yummy?
Speaker 5: They make a Spanish feast for the crew because it's
Speaker 5: the last episode.
Speaker 1: That's nice.
Speaker 5: So for the whole eighty people crew of Megan's show,
Speaker 5: none of whom acquite as glamorous as Meghan because they're
Speaker 5: not ordinary people. But they're allowed in this episode to
Speaker 5: eat oysters, to eat lobster, to drink kava, which is
Speaker 5: like Spanish proseco out of a tea potty thing to
Speaker 5: have a good time.
Speaker 2: Well it's not a.
Speaker 5: Teapop, but apparently it's a traditional Spanish thing that looks
Speaker 5: like a teapot and you teep it up like this
Speaker 5: and the bubbles going to sound, and he tries to
Speaker 5: a bit Meghan to do it, but she's not gonna
Speaker 5: because on camera.
Speaker 1: That might and also she's wearing white linen exactly.
Speaker 2: He is such a vibe.
Speaker 5: He makes her like relax and she becomes quite cool,
Speaker 5: and I just love it.
Speaker 2: It's such a good episode.
Speaker 5: So you don't want to watch the whole season, but
Speaker 5: if you've had a hard day, just go watch the
Speaker 5: Walking vibe. That is Jose Andress loosen Megan up over
Speaker 5: some very good pay hour.
Speaker 2: That's all about.
Speaker 6: But we were told there was going to be something
Speaker 6: sexy here. This doesn't sound that sexy.
Speaker 2: We need to talk about them with our ice trailer.
Speaker 5: Oh yes, So just for everybody to know this, this
Speaker 5: is a week of retractions from me. Remember how I
Speaker 5: said Kate wouldn't go blond, and then she went blonde.
Speaker 5: And then I said, I'm not on board with this
Speaker 5: adaptation of one of my favorite books because Margot Robbie
Speaker 5: is wrong. Jacober LORDI is wrong. The director Emerald Fernell
Speaker 5: was getting a bit too saucy. I watched the trailer
Speaker 5: full retraction. Emerald Fanell in her we should just trust
Speaker 5: because look, it's not going to please the classics like this,
Speaker 5: you know it clearly is a very generous interpretation and
Speaker 5: just a warning like they aren't know happy ending in
Speaker 5: that situation.
Speaker 2: That's fine, but that looks hot.
Speaker 5: Heaving bosom like literally the eggs the needing.
Speaker 1: A lot of need.
Speaker 2: We are you with me?
Speaker 6: No, look, I mean jacob A Laudia Margat Robbie are
Speaker 6: the two best looking people in the world. I could
Speaker 6: stare at their faces. They're Aussie faces forever. I'm into
Speaker 6: it now, Holly, you convinced me. Let's all go with
Speaker 6: our frozen cokes on Valentina.
Speaker 5: Loved it, Love love love, Out Louders, thank you so much.
Speaker 3: I've got it for listening to today's show, and our
Speaker 3: fabulous team for putting this show together. Friends, don't forget.
Speaker 3: You can also watch us on YouTube. Holly, if she
Speaker 3: could speak, would say, I have on a pretty shirt now.
Speaker 3: A big thank you to our team group executive producer
Speaker 3: Ruth Devine, executive producers Emmeline Gazillis and Sasha Tannic.
Speaker 6: Our senior audio producer is Leah Porge's video producer Josh Green,
Speaker 6: and our junior content producers are Coco and Tessa Bye Bye.
Speaker 3: And out Louders. If you have wondered, if you have
Speaker 3: been sitting there going why have they not done an
Speaker 3: entire segment on Gwyneth Paltrow's biography.
Speaker 4: Fabulous question.
Speaker 2: I'd been asking that for ages.
Speaker 3: Yes, we have exciting news, just like I forced Taro
Speaker 3: these two for Squinne. So yesterday's subscriber episode is basically
Speaker 3: your cheat sheet. I didn't read the book but for
Speaker 3: some reason, Amelia did, and she gives us a very
Speaker 3: helpful breakdown everything we need to know, all of the headlines,
Speaker 3: including a very interesting detail about what Madonna wrote to
Speaker 3: Gwyneth as a teenager. So relatable, such good advice. You
Speaker 3: can listen to that via the link in our show notes.
Speaker 3: Shout out to any Mother and Mia subscribers listening. If
Speaker 3: you love the show and you want to support us,
Speaker 3: subscribing to Mom and Mia is the very best way
Speaker 3: to do so. There's a link in the episode description.