Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about.
Speaker 2: On Monday, the ninth of September, I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm
Speaker 2: mea Friedman.
Speaker 3: And I'm Jesse Stevens and on.
Speaker 2: The show today why women all over the world are
Speaker 2: sharing one very disturbing story, also a leaked fake breakup
Speaker 2: agreement and a stream of very public PDA. Travis and
Speaker 2: Taylor's updated PR strategy and every zeitgeistee show and movie
Speaker 2: right now features a divorced mum and a younger man.
Speaker 2: But that's not the age gap relationship we're seeing all
Speaker 2: over the Venice Film Festival red carpet. But first, Mia Freed.
Speaker 2: In case you missed.
Speaker 1: It, Border control has a new enemy, the glam passport photo.
Speaker 1: Across social media, women across the world have been complaining
Speaker 1: that the unrecognizably hot photos in their travel documents are
Speaker 1: causing them to get delayed when they're trying to get
Speaker 1: through passport control. When they're traveling, officials are noticing that
Speaker 1: they're looking very different in real life and questioning their identity,
Speaker 1: or they are failing the facial recognition scans.
Speaker 3: This is not at all an issue for me. I
Speaker 3: saw mine, my most recent one, because the lighting's never good.
Speaker 3: It's from above, it's not front on. So every fine
Speaker 3: line I looked at mine and I went, I need
Speaker 3: botox immediately, like I had an existential crisis. And every
Speaker 3: time I go through any security and they look at
Speaker 3: my passport photo and let me through, I want to
Speaker 3: stay the revolt because that's not even a double take.
Speaker 3: It's like, oh, yeah, this ugly bitch is this Oh this.
Speaker 1: Is what you're meant to do. So a travel agent
Speaker 1: called Denise and Brusco Maida who has a travel agency
Speaker 1: called Travel Brilliant. She reacted to this trend of influencers
Speaker 1: saying it's so terrible I'm being delayed through customs. She
Speaker 1: made her own TikTok video and she said it's a
Speaker 1: reminder not to do hot girl makeup few passport photos.
Speaker 1: I purposely take my passport photo to look like a
Speaker 1: swamp rat.
Speaker 3: That's how you look at the end of a long,
Speaker 3: whole flo.
Speaker 1: It's true, she said. Her advice is to think about
Speaker 1: what you might look like after you've been on a
Speaker 1: flight for fifteen hours overnight in a middle seat, and
Speaker 1: take a photo that looks like that whole situation instead.
Speaker 2: That's awesome because I didn't know that's what I was doing,
Speaker 2: but that's what I was doing.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know how often when you go back and look
Speaker 2: at a picture of yourself when you were young and
Speaker 2: you hated it then, and you look back and you go, oh, no,
Speaker 2: I was I looked great when I was young. Not
Speaker 2: with passport pictures. Pictures.
Speaker 3: I'm like, but why would you want a hot one?
Speaker 3: Because the thing about a passport photo is it's just
Speaker 3: between you and maybe you're very close travel partner and
Speaker 3: a border officer. It's not like you're putting it on
Speaker 3: the internet, So why does it need to be hot?
Speaker 1: Well, Mama Mia out loud. Guest host em Vernon had
Speaker 1: this exact problem. She's not like us. She didn't want
Speaker 1: to look like a swamp rat. Here's what happened recently
Speaker 1: when she had to renew her passport.
Speaker 5: So I had to get my passport photo redone, and
Speaker 5: my friend was like, no, you have to go to
Speaker 5: this place. Look at my passport photo and I looked
Speaker 5: at her passport photo. She looked amazing. So I was like, okay,
Speaker 5: I'm going to go to this place. It cost me
Speaker 5: twenty dollars, and I thought it was just a place
Speaker 5: I did really good passport photos. But then she took
Speaker 5: my photo to her computer and started like touching up
Speaker 5: my face in front of like everyone in the store.
Speaker 4: So everyone in the store was watching this.
Speaker 1: And it looked so good.
Speaker 4: I looked really good in it.
Speaker 5: I didn't look different to myself, but I just looked
Speaker 5: a better version of myself. I did ask her if
Speaker 5: she could photoshop about my double chin, to which she
Speaker 5: said no, But yeah, I paid twenty dollars to have
Speaker 5: my passport photo retouched.
Speaker 1: She may regret that.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I'm just saying, you're not even allowed
Speaker 2: to smile in your passport picture. That's how much like
Speaker 2: yourself you have to look. I think AM's gonna be
Speaker 2: in trouble.
Speaker 3: The story we're about to discuss is the French rape case,
Speaker 3: and if you've heard about it, you'll know how confronting
Speaker 3: some of the details are. So this is just a warning.
Speaker 3: If you've not heard about it, or if you have
Speaker 3: little ears around, then perhaps skip and you can come
Speaker 3: back later. There's a tweet going viral this week by
Speaker 3: doctor Charlotte Proudman that reads, not all men but Gizelle
Speaker 3: Pelico's husband, who reportedly drugged and raped her for over
Speaker 3: ten years. Not all men but ninety plus male strangers,
Speaker 3: mostly living within one kilometer of her home. Not all men,
Speaker 3: but men with STDs and HIV who didn't use condoms.
Speaker 3: Not all men but her polite neighbor. The tweet refers
Speaker 3: to what is considered one of the worst abuse trials
Speaker 3: in France's history and the collective despair felt by women
Speaker 3: all over the world. Gizelle Pellico married a man named
Speaker 3: Dominique Pellico, and together they had three kids, then seven grandchildren.
Speaker 3: They lived in a province in southeastern France. In twenty twenty,
Speaker 3: local French police invited Gizelle to speak to them after
Speaker 3: her husband of fifty years was arrested for filming up
Speaker 3: women's skirts in their local town. While in this interview,
Speaker 3: investigators presented her with an image of herself unconscious in
Speaker 3: her bedroom. She was being raped by a man who
Speaker 3: was not her husband. This image was just the beginning.
Speaker 3: There were dozens of videos involving dozens and dozens of
Speaker 3: men found on Dominique's computer under a file named abuse.
Speaker 3: It was only then that Gizelle realized she had been
Speaker 3: subjected to a decade of sexual abuse, orchestrated and filmed
Speaker 3: by her husband, who drugged her with a cocktail of
Speaker 3: medication before inviting men into their home. The trial started
Speaker 3: last week, and Gizelle has waived her right to anonymity.
Speaker 3: On the stand, she gave evidence for nineteen minutes explaining
Speaker 3: how she thought she had Alzheimer's after years of memory
Speaker 3: lapses and unexplained health problems. Dominique has admitted to the
Speaker 3: charges against him. If this were a simpler story, we
Speaker 3: would dismiss him as a monster a psychopath. But what
Speaker 3: makes this crime more sinister is the willing of these
Speaker 3: seemingly ordinary men, a polite neighbor, a local counselor, a nurse,
Speaker 3: a former police officer, a firefighter, to perpetrate a violent
Speaker 3: crime when invited to do so. So far, fourteen of
Speaker 3: the defendants have confessed to aggravated rate, and not one
Speaker 3: of these men, even those who walked away and did
Speaker 3: not perpetrate abuse, made a phone call to police. This
Speaker 3: is a story about bystanders and a network of men,
Speaker 3: most sourced from the internet, who committed these depraved acts
Speaker 3: with such apparent ease. Holly, what do you think this
Speaker 3: story tells us.
Speaker 2: I've been turning away from it for days because it
Speaker 2: is just so upsetting. I think one of the reasons
Speaker 2: why women are sharing this story so much. Obviously, it's
Speaker 2: extreme and it's shocking, and it's not something you read
Speaker 2: all the time, so there's a factor of it of
Speaker 2: just like, oh gosh, I hadn't heard about this, But
Speaker 2: women are sharing this because it feels to me least.
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 2: There are a lot of men who really smart at
Speaker 2: the idea that one depraved man's actions at anything other
Speaker 2: than one depraved man's actions, and they're like, it's sort
Speaker 2: of victim blaming to cast all men with any kind
Speaker 2: of smear about men being violent, because men are violent
Speaker 2: against men as well, and that's true, right, But this story,
Speaker 2: as you've said, is so much about bystanderds and it's
Speaker 2: not actually only about bystanders. It's about a whole system.
Speaker 2: Because the place where her husband, Dominic Pellico, went to
Speaker 2: source these guys who wanted to come and have sex
Speaker 2: with his unconscious wife, come and rape his unconscious wife.
Speaker 2: Was a chat room on a social media platform called
Speaker 2: Coco that's been closed down since then, but there was
Speaker 2: a specific chat within that that was called something that
Speaker 2: translates as without their knowledge. So we can imagine that
Speaker 2: this wasn't the only particular incident of this that was
Speaker 2: circulating on that chat room, and we can also imagine
Speaker 2: that there are other platforms and other chat rooms that
Speaker 2: exist where this kind of content is being shared. And
Speaker 2: it makes women feel so unsafe because we're already being
Speaker 2: told every day that we're imagining it that all men
Speaker 2: are violent, and we're imagining it that all men would
Speaker 2: condone this kind of behavior, and of course they wouldn't.
Speaker 2: But the fact that this is her loving husband. She
Speaker 2: is on record as saying that they were married for
Speaker 2: fifty years and she thought they had a perfect marriage.
Speaker 2: Not just the people around them, but she did, and
Speaker 2: her loving husband was doing this to her for more
Speaker 2: than a decade, and now it seems that he may
Speaker 2: well have also been taking pictures of his daughter, his
Speaker 2: daughter in law.
Speaker 4: We have no.
Speaker 2: Idea how wide these tentacles stretch. And I think the
Speaker 2: reason that we've been are passing this story around. There's
Speaker 2: also been some other really horrendous, high profile stories this week.
Speaker 2: There was a woman that we all watched run a
Speaker 2: marathon in Paris just a few weeks ago, who was
Speaker 2: murdered by her partner just a few days ago. She's
Speaker 2: a marathon runner called Rebecca Cheptege, and she was murdered
Speaker 2: by her partner in the most horrific circumstances. Couple those
Speaker 2: with the relentless barrage we get week after week about
Speaker 2: a violent incident, and women are just feeling we're feeling crazy,
Speaker 2: like it's not the right word. I know it's not
Speaker 2: the right word, but this story is the kind of
Speaker 2: story that makes you feel crazy because you're like, it's
Speaker 2: not just one guy, as you've said, it was a
Speaker 2: whole community of guys. I've read the mayor of this town,
Speaker 2: who obviously doesn't want the stench of this to stick
Speaker 2: to his town, saying, we had no idea, we didn't
Speaker 2: really know him. They'd moved to it quite recently, and
Speaker 2: it's not like anybody died. He said, ah, you know,
Speaker 2: there's a possible pass there and a translation slip, but
Speaker 2: he said, this is not like anybody died or a
Speaker 2: child was murdered. This is a woman's rape. And if
Speaker 2: that kind of context in a world where it feels
Speaker 2: like our safety is not something we can guarantee, our
Speaker 2: rights are not something we can guarantee. That's why this
Speaker 2: story is resonating so hard. As well as the extraordinary
Speaker 2: bravery of this woman.
Speaker 3: That's why her testimony is so important. I don't think
Speaker 3: anyone can quite grasp the strength of someone to sit
Speaker 3: there for ninety minutes and talk about what happened to her.
Speaker 3: And of course the way that a courtroom will unfold
Speaker 3: we've seen this in Australia is that the only way
Speaker 3: to defend any of these people is to suggest that
Speaker 3: there was some kind of open marriage where she was
Speaker 3: a willing participant, and that's been brought up. So she
Speaker 3: has to sit in a courtroom where they're saying that,
Speaker 3: where the other side is referring to it as you know,
Speaker 3: consensual sex. But she has said some version of I
Speaker 3: will never be okay like this. This has absolutely broken
Speaker 3: me and I a will her children no. And oh
Speaker 3: she described when she told her daughter and the sound
Speaker 3: that her daughter made, she just screamed. She was so horrified.
Speaker 3: It's the story of a wolf in sheep's clothing, because
Speaker 3: this isn't you know. We know this and we know
Speaker 3: about the monster myth, but this is a grandfather. This
Speaker 3: is just an ordinary man who was able to get
Speaker 3: on the Internet. And I think that this is the
Speaker 3: other part of the story is that it reveals how
Speaker 3: sinister unchecked online forums are that this was allowed to.
Speaker 3: France has a cultural they're very sexually liberal and they
Speaker 3: don't like to shut down.
Speaker 2: It's not just a French thing, no, you know. One
Speaker 2: of the reasons why the CEO of Telegram has been
Speaker 2: arrested in France very recently is because there are a
Speaker 2: lot of questions about all kinds of platforms that are
Speaker 2: being very strictly defended under free speech legislation, and not
Speaker 2: just legislation, but it's kind of the owners of them
Speaker 2: are saying, but free speech, but free speech, we don't
Speaker 2: have to show you what's on there that people know
Speaker 2: are being used for terrorism activity, drug sexual assaults.
Speaker 1: These are also not just underground websites. We know that
Speaker 1: child sexual abuse material is being shared and connections being
Speaker 1: made on Facebook, on Instagram, on x on all of
Speaker 1: these places and these are crimes. To be clear, this
Speaker 1: is not free speech, and this idea that it's free speech.
Speaker 1: Free speech does not cover crimes. You know you said
Speaker 1: before Hole it makes us feel crazy. Let's just go
Speaker 1: back to Giselle here, because she talked about how she
Speaker 1: would go to her gynecologist she was having. Can you
Speaker 1: imagine the gynecological problems that she was having, including she
Speaker 1: got STDs and her husband said, have you been cheating
Speaker 1: on me?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: And I accused her of that? And her hair was
Speaker 1: falling out, she was losing weight. You can only imagine
Speaker 1: what she's had to process. And when they say that
Speaker 1: it's from ten years ago, that's when he started filming it.
Speaker 1: Who knows how long this has been going on. And
Speaker 1: a few months ago in Samantha Murphy was murdered in Victoria.
Speaker 1: When she went for a run, women were like, we
Speaker 1: can't even go for a run. It's not about walking
Speaker 1: home late at night or what you're wearing. We can't
Speaker 1: even go for a run near our house in the
Speaker 1: early morning. And now it's like we can't even sleep
Speaker 1: in our own bed, inside our own marriage, inside our
Speaker 1: own house and be safe.
Speaker 2: It's that idea this might be a really naive thing
Speaker 2: to say, but the idea that there are enough men
Speaker 2: who want to do that, right, like who want to
Speaker 2: have sex with an unconscious woman and use her like
Speaker 2: a posable doll in this horrific fashion. You know, I'm
Speaker 2: a grown woman is seeing a lot of things. It
Speaker 2: still absolutely shocks me. And I was talking about this
Speaker 2: case to my partner. I know not all men, but
Speaker 2: I was like, what is wrong with you?
Speaker 1: Lot?
Speaker 4: What is wrong with you?
Speaker 2: And I know it's not him, but it's when a
Speaker 2: case like this cuts through and you have to read
Speaker 2: this and I feel like when a woman is as
Speaker 2: brave as Giselle is being in waiving her anonymity, her
Speaker 2: daughter's written a book. They're trying to do a few
Speaker 2: different things. They're trying to change laws around these kind
Speaker 2: of platforms, and they're trying to obviously expose their husband
Speaker 2: slash father as the monster that.
Speaker 1: He is, and also alert women to the fact that
Speaker 1: this is We think about date rape drugs as something
Speaker 1: that happens in bars and nightclass the idea that it
Speaker 1: could happen over a long period of time in your
Speaker 1: own home. She also wants people to know if you're
Speaker 1: having gynecological issues that you don't understand, or if you're
Speaker 1: forgetting things or falling asleep at the table, and his
Speaker 1: kids would say, because he's got two adult sons as
Speaker 1: well who've been with their mother along with her daughter,
Speaker 1: they'd be sitting at the table having dinner and she'd
Speaker 1: fall asleep at the table, and the dad would say,
Speaker 1: sometimes this happens, it's better if I just carry her
Speaker 1: to bed. And they are tortured that the fact this
Speaker 1: was happening under their.
Speaker 2: Nose, the bravery of her, and the fact that this
Speaker 2: has because I did see some posts earlier in the
Speaker 2: week that were like, this should be front page news.
Speaker 2: Everybody should know about this, and it is right. It
Speaker 2: is a story that has broken through and gone around
Speaker 2: the world as it should. I don't think men are
Speaker 2: talking about but they're not exactly This is what I
Speaker 2: mean when I was talking to my partner about it.
Speaker 2: I'm not seeing men talk about it, and I understand
Speaker 2: it's horrific, but I also I don't know, Like I say,
Speaker 2: you just get to a point with these stories where
Speaker 2: it makes you want to I don't.
Speaker 4: Know what the word is.
Speaker 1: I want to build a wall, like I want them away,
Speaker 1: like I just.
Speaker 3: It's the details. It's what you say is that you
Speaker 3: see the headlines, but then there are just these details
Speaker 3: which reveals something. And this is what a lot of
Speaker 3: the analysis in France is saying, is that this is
Speaker 3: about French culture. But although I think it's much broader
Speaker 3: than that, doing some soul searching about how this happened,
Speaker 3: because there are details about her meeting this man who
Speaker 3: was a friend of her husband's and they talked about cycling,
Speaker 3: and then she went to the bakery and said ow
Speaker 3: low to him. He was one of the men. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so a completely ordinary guy. And the difference with the Internet,
Speaker 3: I would say, is that the Internet gives you a
Speaker 3: playbook and you know it's whistleblowing on the fact that
Speaker 3: if this was some kind of sick, sadistic thing you
Speaker 3: wanted to do, well, you know, he learned this from somewhere.
Speaker 1: He also taught it. He's also been charged Dominic Pelico
Speaker 1: with doing this to another man's wife, and this other
Speaker 1: man is one of Gisel Pellico's rapists accused rapists as well,
Speaker 1: and so clearly this is more widespread, this fantasy that
Speaker 1: so many men have that we didn't realize not just
Speaker 1: willing to keep it as fantasy, but that so many
Speaker 1: men were willing to act on it, and had he
Speaker 1: not been stopped, he was still going. He was still
Speaker 1: doing it out loud. As This is a very heavy
Speaker 1: story and we want you to know that there is
Speaker 1: help always available. We have links to resources in the
Speaker 1: show notes hell, because I can do it with the
Speaker 1: book again.
Speaker 2: Taylor Swift has spent the last five days doing very
Speaker 2: public PDA filled patworks with her boyfriend Travis Kelcey, and
Speaker 2: I'm sure it has absolutely nothing to do with the
Speaker 2: fact that last week a rumor flew around the world
Speaker 2: that their relationship is in fact on tractual agreement. But
Speaker 2: I do need to check this with Mia first some context.
Speaker 2: Swift is having a little break from world domination at
Speaker 2: the moment. The Era's taught, which started in March last
Speaker 2: year twenty twenty three, will finish in December this year.
Speaker 4: My god, that woman works hard.
Speaker 2: She's spent the northern summer in Europe and now she's
Speaker 2: on a very well earned break until October when she
Speaker 2: starts her last run of shows in Canada and the US.
Speaker 2: So you wouldn't blame the woman for wanting to have
Speaker 2: a little bit of fun. And these past few days
Speaker 2: she's been watching her boyfriend Travis Kelsey play football in Missouri.
Speaker 2: She went to a wedding in Manhattan, she went to
Speaker 2: the US Open final in Flushing Meadows, and on a
Speaker 2: fancy color coordinated dinner date with Travis, also in New
Speaker 2: York City. Every occasion there have been pictures of arrivals
Speaker 2: and departures, and there have been really cute couple dressing moments,
Speaker 2: and they've been passionate up all.
Speaker 1: Over the place.
Speaker 2: And if you can be sure of anything, it's that
Speaker 2: if Taylor Swift was j LO, my friend Mia would
Speaker 2: have a lot of thoughts about just how public all
Speaker 2: this is. And if you're thinking, but isn't a woman
Speaker 2: allowed to go out with her boyfriend, yes, yes they are,
Speaker 2: you'd be one hundred percent right. But the very visible
Speaker 2: strategy is extra intriguing to people with no life like myself,
Speaker 2: because last week the couple denied the veracity of a
Speaker 2: contract circulating about their relationship on the letterhead of Kelsey's
Speaker 2: PR firm, Full Scope Public Relations. This document appeared to
Speaker 2: provide the wording for an official announcement for the news
Speaker 2: of the couple split, which, to be honest, any of
Speaker 2: us could have written. It was like, after careful consideration,
Speaker 2: please respect their privacy.
Speaker 4: Blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: It was a whole content strategy. Doc I went really
Speaker 3: do keep going back like I think it's real.
Speaker 2: It was like when the announcement would happen after the split,
Speaker 2: and there were rumors that there was a date of
Speaker 2: their split, which was September the twenty eighth, which is
Speaker 2: almost exactly a year since they first went public with
Speaker 2: their dating. Blah blah blah. They have, of course denied
Speaker 2: that it was real. The PR company came out and
Speaker 2: said it is absolutely not real. It's fake news. But Mia,
Speaker 2: what is going on in Travison Taylor world.
Speaker 1: I just want to light a little candle for Tree Payne,
Speaker 1: who is someone I admire a lot. That's Taylor Swift's publicist.
Speaker 1: She's having quite the time at the moment because.
Speaker 3: She would never get her document leaked, never to regard
Speaker 3: that with her life not.
Speaker 1: An arabt by her document.
Speaker 2: I have to work with these amateurs.
Speaker 1: I'm still waiting for the bio pic of Tree Payne's
Speaker 1: life that will definitely win another Oscar for amistone. Now, look,
Speaker 1: there's been a lot going on because also in Taylor's
Speaker 1: orbit so much for her downtime. The squad has been
Speaker 1: conspicuously absent. So when she's been at games in previous
Speaker 1: last season, she was always had her posse with her.
Speaker 1: There was Brittany Mahomes, who is the wife of Travis's
Speaker 1: teammate Patrick Mahomes, and there's been Black Lively. There's been
Speaker 1: a whole crew, but.
Speaker 3: Even a little bit controversy.
Speaker 1: Correct, all of those people were at Taylor's house after
Speaker 1: she finished the tour for a little bit of a holiday,
Speaker 1: but they haven't been by her side because they are
Speaker 1: both a bit controversial. Blake Lively is currently in the
Speaker 1: cancelation cycle because of her movie This Ends with Us
Speaker 1: and the way she apparently was not respectful enough to
Speaker 1: domestic violence victims. And Brittany Mahomes has been everywhere because
Speaker 1: she endorsed a whole bunch of posts by Donald Trump
Speaker 1: and has outed herself as a Trump voter.
Speaker 3: Denell, just can I get to the bottom of this
Speaker 3: because I read she just liked a few posts by Trump.
Speaker 3: She did, but more than one, quite a few oay,
Speaker 3: has she said the words I am voting for Donald Trump.
Speaker 4: I don't think so.
Speaker 1: She hasn't, But then she did one of those notes
Speaker 1: at posts about or posted an Instagram title about isn't
Speaker 1: it important to be able to disagree with people that
Speaker 1: we still love them? And abuse and of course all
Speaker 1: of these things. But given that just a few weeks ago,
Speaker 1: Donald Trump retweeted some more fake shots. God, it would
Speaker 1: be hard to be tree Paint. I mean, hard to
Speaker 1: be Taylor, hard as to treat.
Speaker 3: It's hard to be you, who's across all the tailors.
Speaker 1: It's so hard to me anyway. So there's a lot
Speaker 1: going on, right So what's interesting about these papwalks? I personally,
Speaker 1: if I was Taylor Swift, after going around the world
Speaker 1: for as long as she has been and she's still
Speaker 1: not finished, and having the spotlight on me that much,
Speaker 1: I would want to retreat and be in a dark room.
Speaker 1: But that's not how she wants to be. And I'm
Speaker 1: not judging that. I'm just saying it's something that I
Speaker 1: struggle to understand because the public nature of all of this,
Speaker 1: and she's spoken about it before and so has he
Speaker 1: in terms of they show up to support each other
Speaker 1: at work and work for them. It's not just going
Speaker 1: to the office Christmas party of your partner. It's going
Speaker 1: to football games and concerts and where there are a
Speaker 1: lot of paparazzi.
Speaker 3: I'm trying to understand this because it is every day
Speaker 3: there's new shots, going out to dinner, you know, watching
Speaker 3: the US Open. All seem like very fun activities. But
Speaker 3: I'm like, what's the strategy behind this sudden like how
Speaker 3: conspicuous they are. Is it possible that it has anything
Speaker 3: to do with the VMAs that are this week?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: So the VMAs are about to come up.
Speaker 1: And I've been non for I think twelve wars.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's been nominated for a thousand and.
Speaker 4: Oh that means more couple shots.
Speaker 3: It means more couple shots, and it's going to be
Speaker 3: very competitive because, as we talked about last week, there
Speaker 3: are a lot of really impressive solo female artists. VMA's
Speaker 3: a voted. Is it possible that she does need to
Speaker 3: continue to court a bit of attention? She's tell us.
Speaker 4: On the World Domination Tour.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, she's very she doesn't leave anything on the field. Though,
Speaker 1: to use a sporting analogy, she you're right in the
Speaker 1: same way she didn't need to release all those extra
Speaker 1: special versions of her album to Shoulder out Chapel Roan
Speaker 1: and Charlie XCX from the charts when they released their albums.
Speaker 1: But she does because she's incredibly ambitious. She really likes records,
Speaker 1: she likes objective measures of success. And what I think
Speaker 1: is interesting this is the first boyfriend she's ever had
Speaker 1: that we know of, in a really long time who's
Speaker 1: been secure enough and who's enjoyed the.
Speaker 4: That's one way of looking at it.
Speaker 2: These secure enough, But the more cynical way of looking
Speaker 2: at it is that he loves it, and I love
Speaker 2: the appeal for him, and like she, of course she
Speaker 2: needs to go and watch him play football, and out louders,
Speaker 2: let's just raise a flag. We know this is all
Speaker 2: silly nonsense, and that what's really going on between them
Speaker 2: we don't know, but speculating is fun, right, Yes, she
Speaker 2: goes watching play football, but going to watch him play football,
Speaker 2: and I've been to lots of football games. Right in
Speaker 2: a denim corset, hotpants and thigh high latext boots says
Speaker 2: take my picture, It says, take my picture, and I
Speaker 2: am here looking extra hot to support my extra hot boyfriend,
Speaker 2: and she is, of course italientitled to do that, but
Speaker 2: I think he loves it and she does it for him.
Speaker 1: What it's not is very demure.
Speaker 3: It's not that demure, but.
Speaker 1: She's not mindful of CUTI but do you know what
Speaker 1: it says today? And I thought that.
Speaker 4: She'll get sick of She'll get sick of that neediness.
Speaker 1: One reading of this is that she wants everyone to
Speaker 1: look at her. Another reading of this is that she's
Speaker 1: a woman who's having really great sex and she's really
Speaker 1: feeling herself but you don't, and is really enjoying dressing
Speaker 1: like that and feeling it's also comfortable.
Speaker 2: To me, she needs to get her very supportive of
Speaker 2: all that. It's you who's normally telling the women to
Speaker 2: get their clothes back on, but apparently those rules don't
Speaker 2: apply to our princess.
Speaker 1: I mean nothing if not inconsistent.
Speaker 2: But totally here for all that. She can have her
Speaker 2: hot girl as much as she wants and wear what
Speaker 2: she wants. But my suspicion is, as you always say,
Speaker 2: about the fact that she's always gone for these guys
Speaker 2: who are obsessed with privacy, and now she's got exactly
Speaker 2: the opposite and that will become as tiresome in time.
Speaker 4: As the guys who are always obsessed with privacy.
Speaker 2: Because she might just want to land the couch in
Speaker 2: her trackies, and she's been out for dinner five times
Speaker 2: in the last five days.
Speaker 1: I think she has agency, and I think she probably
Speaker 1: spends plenty of time lying at home in her trackies.
Speaker 1: And even though for us it seems like she's been
Speaker 1: so public and everywhere, she's actually just been at work.
Speaker 1: So when you're on tour as we have been, the
Speaker 1: time that you're dates massively public. But then, particularly with
Speaker 1: everything that's gone down in Europe and with what happened
Speaker 1: in Vienna and having to cancel it and the terrorism,
Speaker 1: she's locked down on this tour. It's not like she's
Speaker 1: been doing this for the last year and a half.
Speaker 1: So she wants to go out for di she's home.
Speaker 1: She lives in New York, she's got a house there,
Speaker 1: she's back with her boyfriend for two months. She doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be in tour mode, where she says when
Speaker 1: she's touring and she's performing, she doesn't drink because she says,
Speaker 1: I never want to know what it's like to do
Speaker 1: that show, to hang over, so she's essentially been working
Speaker 1: back to back for a long time. I think it's
Speaker 1: her time to shine.
Speaker 2: Fair enough, and we love her and she can do
Speaker 2: what she wants. What I need to know from you
Speaker 2: is what you thought about the leaked document.
Speaker 1: I thought that everybody's got a plan, and it's not
Speaker 1: out of the realms of possibility to have a breakup
Speaker 1: announcement plan, right like, I'm sure they've got a engagement plan.
Speaker 1: And she is pregnant. Guess what, I'm having his baby
Speaker 1: that guess what I'm lying.
Speaker 3: As someone who does understand this stuff, it seems so
Speaker 3: obvious now, but it's not something that I assumed existed.
Speaker 3: So what I spent my weekend doing was zooming in
Speaker 3: on all the details of the content plan.
Speaker 1: But Jesse, it's like us preparing o bits for famous
Speaker 1: people who are near death. You just got to be prepared.
Speaker 1: What were some of the details that stood out to you.
Speaker 3: I'm just obsessed, all right. So the plan gives an
Speaker 3: example statement of what he's going to say and the
Speaker 3: whole point of the content strategy in case you're wondering,
Speaker 3: And this is like a work document, this is what's fascinating.
Speaker 3: He retains a positive public image, minimizes negative media portrayal,
Speaker 3: and continues to build his personal and professional brand. He's
Speaker 3: only allowed to talk to ESPN, Vanity Fair, and People magazine.
Speaker 3: And if you're wondering what he's talking points are, don't
Speaker 3: know what he's talking points are because he has to
Speaker 3: actually see the tracks.
Speaker 1: This is a good plan.
Speaker 3: They have to conduct some mock interviews with him so
Speaker 3: that he's prepared, but he has to say that he
Speaker 3: has respect for Taylor Swift and their mutual decision to
Speaker 3: part ways. Yeah, they had social media where the tile
Speaker 3: was going to be posted. Okay, obviously they look very
Speaker 3: much together at the moment. But this document, if it
Speaker 3: was real. The thing I can't make sense of is
Speaker 3: the date.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the flag, because I think that it would
Speaker 1: be very sensible and perhaps reckless not to have this document.
Speaker 1: But it doesn't mean that the relationship's fake. I think
Speaker 1: that the date implied that it could. Maybe they were
Speaker 1: just going say it's on this date, how would we react?
Speaker 1: But I think that what the whole subtext of this was,
Speaker 1: and waver and got very excited, was the idea that
Speaker 1: it was a fake relationship. And I think that while
Speaker 1: parts of the document might be real and the content
Speaker 1: plan might be real, is it a fake what? I
Speaker 1: can see why he would need it, She doesn't really
Speaker 1: need it. I just don't think they could be bothered,
Speaker 1: to be honest, But I could be wrong. It's almost
Speaker 1: a bit exciting if I was wrong, because it would
Speaker 1: be quite exciting to think that this whole thing would.
Speaker 2: See the validation that would be the motivation for this
Speaker 2: relationship to be fake, because, as we've just discussed, Taylor
Speaker 2: Swift Will, being very ambitious and successful, does not need
Speaker 2: the publicity like she is in charge of the world.
Speaker 2: Whether she's dating Travis Kelsey or not. Well, it's good
Speaker 2: for him. He's got a lot more to gain from
Speaker 2: it than she does. Why would she be in a
Speaker 2: fake relationship.
Speaker 1: Because it's upended the trope of Taylor Swift childless cat lady,
Speaker 1: can't get a man. No one's saying that about her,
Speaker 1: you know, can't hold a relationship or choose through all
Speaker 1: these guys to show her with someone who's her.
Speaker 3: Equal, wholesome, all American. If you think about the ven diagram,
Speaker 3: as we talked about, it's a whole new the Super
Speaker 3: Bowl audience, I mean that moment with something written for
Speaker 3: a movie, and in terms of Travis Kelsey.
Speaker 2: Like it's not her equal. I'm sorry, but he.
Speaker 3: At the moment has his acting yield. He has his
Speaker 3: acting debut coming up, He's hosting something on an Amazon
Speaker 3: game show. His career is skyrocketing.
Speaker 4: He gives me the ick.
Speaker 2: Out loud as if you want to listen to us
Speaker 2: every day of the week, and why wouldn't you. You
Speaker 2: can get access to exclusive segments on Tuesdays and Thursdays
Speaker 2: by becoming a Mom and Mere subscriber. Follow the link
Speaker 2: in the show notes to subscribe, and a big thank
Speaker 2: you to all our current subscribers. Are you last?
Speaker 5: Supher's Mom?
Speaker 2: I no, no, not, it's just you know I taken
Speaker 2: the tour.
Speaker 1: Twenty twenty four seems to be the year of the
Speaker 1: milf in Hollywood, with a series of movies and streaming
Speaker 1: series about older women who are having relationships with younger men,
Speaker 1: and many of them start a Cole Kidman, such as
Speaker 1: A Family Affair on Netflix where Nicole Kidman, who is
Speaker 1: fifty eight, has a relationship with zac Efron's character and
Speaker 1: he is thirty six in real life. Then there was
Speaker 1: her movie which she's just one best actress for at
Speaker 1: the Venice Film Festival called Baby Girl, where she has
Speaker 1: a relationship with an intern at her law firm or
Speaker 1: wherever as she was, and that actor is twenty eight.
Speaker 1: His name's Harris Dickinson. And then, of course a few
Speaker 1: months ago there was the idea of you with Anne Hathaway,
Speaker 1: who is forty one, who was having a relationship with
Speaker 1: a boy band guy. Nick Gallantine played that character and
Speaker 1: he's twenty nine. So you can see a bit of
Speaker 1: a pattern forming in Hollywood because more women are dating
Speaker 1: younger men in real life. So Hollywood's obviously following the
Speaker 1: money by meeting this audience appetite from women to see
Speaker 1: these kinds of relationships depicted on screen. However, you would
Speaker 1: not know this by looking at the red carpet at
Speaker 1: the Venice Film Festival. That's where a bunch of new
Speaker 1: and old relationships have premiered this week, highlighting a tale
Speaker 1: as old as time. Older men like younger women. Oh
Speaker 1: press pause, write that down in case you forget. And
Speaker 1: it seems that the more status the men have, the
Speaker 1: bigger the age gap. Some of the couples on the
Speaker 1: red carpet. This week include Brad pitt Age sixty with
Speaker 1: his girlfriend Ines de Ramon, who is thirty four. That's
Speaker 1: a twenty six.
Speaker 3: Year she's my age.
Speaker 2: You could be, George, imagine that for a minute, because
Speaker 2: I know you're all for the age cut relationships. Imagine
Speaker 2: dating a sixty year old. How would you feel about that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that's my dad.
Speaker 1: I was about to say you'd feel rich, but that
Speaker 1: is also your dad, which is weird. George Clooney sixty
Speaker 1: three was on the Red Carpet with his wife Ama Glooney.
Speaker 1: She's forty six. That is a seventeen year gap. Richard Gear,
Speaker 1: remember Richard Gear, pretty woman, Richard Gear seventy five now
Speaker 1: and he's with his I don't know, third fourth wife.
Speaker 1: Her name's Alejandra Silver and she's forty one, so they
Speaker 1: have a thirty four year age gap. Remember Jennifer Aniston's
Speaker 1: ex husband, Justinirs and the cousin. He's fifty three. Jennifer
Speaker 1: Aniston had been what fifty five fifty seven by now
Speaker 1: he's with his new fiance, she's thirty. They have a
Speaker 1: twenty three year age gap, and this was interesting. Emma
Speaker 1: Corn twenty eight is dating Rami Mark who is forty three.
Speaker 1: They've got a fifteen year age gap. Anyway, it made
Speaker 1: me feel angry and depressed. I mean, not angry.
Speaker 3: Because I might be imagining it, but I'm sensing a
Speaker 3: bit of snart. I'm sensing so much a sense from
Speaker 3: both of you.
Speaker 1: From please it comes from insecurity now, it does comes
Speaker 1: from the idea that society tells us. And oh look,
Speaker 1: it's kind of true that older women are not desirable,
Speaker 1: are not worthy of being with men their own age,
Speaker 1: and that all men, really, when they've got the power
Speaker 1: and the money and the status, will trade in their
Speaker 1: old partner for a much younger maman.
Speaker 3: Is this new or surprising? Like that desire is socially constructed? Like,
Speaker 3: are we angry?
Speaker 1: I think your Clooney.
Speaker 3: Or brad pet would choose a younger woman.
Speaker 1: As you get older. It feels very personal.
Speaker 4: I see, I don't agree.
Speaker 2: I also roll my eyes so high of sprender Corney
Speaker 2: are over these relationships, like it is so boring and
Speaker 2: so predictable, and it makes you almost like ridiculously grateful
Speaker 2: for couples who actually like are both of a certain age.
Speaker 1: You know, Keanu Reeves was out with his girlfriend and
Speaker 1: she had gray hair and.
Speaker 2: We were like that man is our hero, or like,
Speaker 2: you know, that's why everybody loves Kevin Bacon and Caia
Speaker 2: Sedgwick on TikTok and stuff, because they're like grown ups
Speaker 2: who date each other like they're to get Like people
Speaker 2: were so grateful because this is so boring. But I
Speaker 2: don't agree with you. It doesn't make me feel insecure
Speaker 2: and unattractive, because let's be honest, I never really thought
Speaker 2: that the brad Pitts of the world were going for me.
Speaker 4: Anyway.
Speaker 2: It makes me think less of them. It makes me
Speaker 2: think and I know I've sounded a bit man bashi
Speaker 2: in different ways in this episode, but it makes me think,
Speaker 2: how sad for you?
Speaker 4: You know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Not that I think those women aren't interesting, smart, engaging women.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't been adding too many candles for George Clooney
Speaker 1: at this point, but.
Speaker 2: I just feel like, well, no, George Kline, I feel
Speaker 2: slightly different about why is that? But anyway, I feel
Speaker 2: like it's because.
Speaker 3: I think it's because of how established, amal.
Speaker 2: And amazing she is. But I'm sure that all these
Speaker 2: other women are also amazing in their own ways. They
Speaker 2: might not be human rights lawyers saving the world. But
Speaker 2: I'm sure they've got their own stuff going on. But
Speaker 2: it's just so predictable and boring because it speaks to
Speaker 2: me of their insecurity. Like dating younger women is a
Speaker 2: thing that middle aged men do to make them feel young.
Speaker 2: We're all as we get to a certain age, grappling
Speaker 2: with our relevancy, our attractiveness in different ways, not only sexually.
Speaker 2: But are we still relevant in the workplace? Are we
Speaker 2: still worthy of attention? And will people still listen to
Speaker 2: us when we talk like Women are wrestling with that
Speaker 2: all the time, and so are men in a different way.
Speaker 2: And one of the things that makes them feel young
Speaker 2: and vibrant is the idea that a young woman still
Speaker 2: wants to have sex with them, right. It makes them
Speaker 2: feel good. And so when I look at your Brad
Speaker 2: Pitts and I think you couldn't handle a grown up
Speaker 2: woman like it makes me single. It makes me feel
Speaker 2: like he must be having a midlife.
Speaker 3: I don't have a single feeling about it.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: I looked through these pictures and I just shrugged, and
Speaker 3: I thought, let them, like let them.
Speaker 2: But yeah, of course, let them. No one's suggesting I'm
Speaker 2: gonna do what Meha always says to me. No one's
Speaker 2: suggesting that they should be arrested or like forcibly broken up,
Speaker 2: or we should be handing them contracts like their breakup announcement.
Speaker 1: They should be in prison.
Speaker 2: But I think that the age thing is that we've
Speaker 2: seen it so many times for so long that we
Speaker 2: find it hard to swallow. Just the idea that this
Speaker 2: one person who was perfect for you in the world
Speaker 2: just happened to still be in her thirties when you
Speaker 2: were in your sixties is like harder than ever.
Speaker 3: I was doing some research and some studies find that
Speaker 3: the relationship satisfaction reported by age gap couples, which is
Speaker 3: defined as more than ten years, is higher. And the
Speaker 3: biggest thing that they face is like this social judgment
Speaker 3: is that they feel like everyone's judging them, and especially women.
Speaker 3: Younger women get it a lot from other women who
Speaker 3: are very judgmental of I don't really.
Speaker 2: Have feelings about the women. I only have feelings about
Speaker 2: the man.
Speaker 1: That's interesting well, that the idea is that the women
Speaker 1: either have daddy issues or their gold diggers and that's
Speaker 1: not fair.
Speaker 3: Exploited, or they don't have agency. There's a great quote
Speaker 3: by down Savage. He says, we are status obsessed, power
Speaker 3: obsessed primates, always jockeying for control socially and also in
Speaker 3: our interpersonal relationships. There's no interpersonal relationship without power differentials,
Speaker 3: without advantages or disadvantages. And if you want to correct
Speaker 3: for that or eliminate that, you have to eliminate human relationships.
Speaker 3: And that's how I feel about this stuff. It happens
Speaker 3: in every country. It's not a Western world thing, happens
Speaker 3: in every country in the world.
Speaker 1: That of course it does Jesse because women are valued
Speaker 1: for their youth and their fertility. Like it happens only
Speaker 1: one way, though, and that's why these movies are such outlies.
Speaker 1: Like imagine if I listed all the movies and TVs
Speaker 1: shows that had age gaps the usual way, I can
Speaker 1: see that there's a lot of satisfaction. And I've got
Speaker 1: a lot of friends who've dated much younger guys, particularly
Speaker 1: after their divorces, and I can see why that works
Speaker 1: because often the guys aren't ready to have kids yet,
Speaker 1: and the women have had their kids, they don't want
Speaker 1: anything too serious, and it's been good and it's been
Speaker 1: interesting and satisfying for them both for a time, sometimes
Speaker 1: for a long time and sometimes for a shorter time.
Speaker 1: It's as taylor as old as time, as I said,
Speaker 1: And it feels personally insulting. And I feel attacked by
Speaker 1: this red carpet. I feel attacked by the men that
Speaker 1: are on it with they're young women. I feel attacked,
Speaker 1: I think, and I will.
Speaker 3: Kind of go, go no offense to these people, right,
Speaker 3: but they're on a red carpet. They're celebrities.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 3: To suggest that these people care about things such as
Speaker 3: power and money and fame and status is hardly surprising
Speaker 3: to me. I do not mean that any of these people, like, yes,
Speaker 3: we see it now everyday lives. But I don't think
Speaker 3: that every man is sitting there wishing that he was
Speaker 3: with someone twenty years younger.
Speaker 1: Yes, I think that when you get older, without wanting
Speaker 1: to sound condescending, that thing about you can't be what
Speaker 1: you can't see, which is not true, because you can
Speaker 1: be it. In this instance, it's just can be hard
Speaker 1: to feel good about it. When you don't see any
Speaker 1: of your famous male contemporaries dating women of your age
Speaker 1: of their age, you do start to feel a bit
Speaker 1: like you're going crazy.
Speaker 2: We were talking about this recently. What were we watching
Speaker 2: when we were like, oh, Hollywood's really old now the
Speaker 2: logis Oh it.
Speaker 3: Was the logis.
Speaker 2: So that wasn't even Hollywood, that was just Australian television.
Speaker 2: But my point being that there are a lot of
Speaker 2: incredible women in their fifties in Hollywood, right, A lot
Speaker 2: of incredible women in their fifties, and they're not really
Speaker 2: on this red carpet with their partners. I know, we're
Speaker 2: looking specifically Jesus, but they're mostly they're by themselves.
Speaker 3: Yes they are, and I think that's Hones and your Jolays,
Speaker 3: which is.
Speaker 2: Ironic considering Brad Pitt was their common denominator. Very often
Speaker 2: there by themselves or they've had late life divorces. And
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that because I don't think anybody wants
Speaker 2: to be with them, because of course they do, like
Speaker 2: they're incredibly gorgeous, attractive and accomplished people, but they are
Speaker 2: sick of this bullshit.
Speaker 4: I would suggest, right, why would.
Speaker 2: You want to be with a guy who only thinks
Speaker 2: that attractiveness exists under the age of thirty?
Speaker 4: Like Leonardo DiCaprio.
Speaker 2: You're so right that there's nothing surprising about it, and
Speaker 2: that's why it's worthy of comment, really, is that this
Speaker 2: needle doesn't shift. This trope hasn't moved, as women have
Speaker 2: got a lot more power in a lot more areas
Speaker 2: of life that are actually way more important, of course
Speaker 2: than red carpet relationships. This aspirational trope of the kind
Speaker 2: of woman, a rich, successful man in his fifties or
Speaker 2: sixties or seventies, in Richard Gears case, once in their
Speaker 2: arms will not shift is interesting. It's depressing, but it's interesting.
Speaker 1: Out loaders, We've talked about a lot of things today,
Speaker 1: and you might just want to keep listening to our voices. Well,
Speaker 1: you can keep listening to mine. We've all got other
Speaker 1: podcasts that you can listen to. But there is an
Speaker 1: episode of No Filter I'd really like to recommend this
Speaker 1: week that will just put a smile on your dial.
Speaker 1: It's a mother and daughter talking about age gaps and
Speaker 1: the mother she offered to carry the daughter's child baby.
Speaker 1: And it got me once you listen, out louders, if
Speaker 1: you listened all the way to the end, I do
Speaker 1: talk a little bit at the end about volunteering my
Speaker 1: services to you.
Speaker 3: I don't just being pregnant okay.
Speaker 1: And I loved it. I would be honored. Thank you
Speaker 1: for asking me. Out Louders. We'll put a link in
Speaker 1: the show notes and we will live stream. It's a
Speaker 1: scoop the birth of Jesse's baby out of my vagina.
Speaker 2: A massive thank you to all of you out louders
Speaker 2: who stuck with us through that, particularly that last part.
Speaker 2: We appreciate you as always, and thank you, of course
Speaker 2: to our wonderful team for putting this show together. We're
Speaker 2: going to be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 3: Bye. Shout out to any Muma Mea subscribers listening. If
Speaker 3: you love the show and you want to support us,
Speaker 3: subscribing to Momma Mia is the very best way to
Speaker 3: do so. There's a link in the episode description.