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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about.

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Speaker 2: On Monday, the ninth of September, I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm

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Speaker 2: mea Friedman.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Jesse Stevens and on.

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Speaker 2: The show today why women all over the world are

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Speaker 2: sharing one very disturbing story, also a leaked fake breakup

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Speaker 2: agreement and a stream of very public PDA. Travis and

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Speaker 2: Taylor's updated PR strategy and every zeitgeistee show and movie

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Speaker 2: right now features a divorced mum and a younger man.

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Speaker 2: But that's not the age gap relationship we're seeing all

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Speaker 2: over the Venice Film Festival red carpet. But first, Mia Freed.

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Speaker 2: In case you missed.

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Speaker 1: It, Border control has a new enemy, the glam passport photo.

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Speaker 1: Across social media, women across the world have been complaining

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Speaker 1: that the unrecognizably hot photos in their travel documents are

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Speaker 1: causing them to get delayed when they're trying to get

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Speaker 1: through passport control. When they're traveling, officials are noticing that

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Speaker 1: they're looking very different in real life and questioning their identity,

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Speaker 1: or they are failing the facial recognition scans.

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Speaker 3: This is not at all an issue for me. I

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Speaker 3: saw mine, my most recent one, because the lighting's never good.

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Speaker 3: It's from above, it's not front on. So every fine

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Speaker 3: line I looked at mine and I went, I need

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Speaker 3: botox immediately, like I had an existential crisis. And every

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Speaker 3: time I go through any security and they look at

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Speaker 3: my passport photo and let me through, I want to

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Speaker 3: stay the revolt because that's not even a double take.

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Speaker 3: It's like, oh, yeah, this ugly bitch is this Oh this.

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Speaker 1: Is what you're meant to do. So a travel agent

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Speaker 1: called Denise and Brusco Maida who has a travel agency

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Speaker 1: called Travel Brilliant. She reacted to this trend of influencers

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Speaker 1: saying it's so terrible I'm being delayed through customs. She

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Speaker 1: made her own TikTok video and she said it's a

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Speaker 1: reminder not to do hot girl makeup few passport photos.

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Speaker 1: I purposely take my passport photo to look like a

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Speaker 1: swamp rat.

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Speaker 3: That's how you look at the end of a long,

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Speaker 3: whole flo.

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Speaker 1: It's true, she said. Her advice is to think about

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Speaker 1: what you might look like after you've been on a

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Speaker 1: flight for fifteen hours overnight in a middle seat, and

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Speaker 1: take a photo that looks like that whole situation instead.

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Speaker 2: That's awesome because I didn't know that's what I was doing,

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Speaker 2: but that's what I was doing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You know how often when you go back and look

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Speaker 2: at a picture of yourself when you were young and

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Speaker 2: you hated it then, and you look back and you go, oh, no,

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Speaker 2: I was I looked great when I was young. Not

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Speaker 2: with passport pictures. Pictures.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, but why would you want a hot one?

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Speaker 3: Because the thing about a passport photo is it's just

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Speaker 3: between you and maybe you're very close travel partner and

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Speaker 3: a border officer. It's not like you're putting it on

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Speaker 3: the internet, So why does it need to be hot?

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Speaker 1: Well, Mama Mia out loud. Guest host em Vernon had

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Speaker 1: this exact problem. She's not like us. She didn't want

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Speaker 1: to look like a swamp rat. Here's what happened recently

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Speaker 1: when she had to renew her passport.

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Speaker 5: So I had to get my passport photo redone, and

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Speaker 5: my friend was like, no, you have to go to

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Speaker 5: this place. Look at my passport photo and I looked

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Speaker 5: at her passport photo. She looked amazing. So I was like, okay,

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Speaker 5: I'm going to go to this place. It cost me

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Speaker 5: twenty dollars, and I thought it was just a place

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Speaker 5: I did really good passport photos. But then she took

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Speaker 5: my photo to her computer and started like touching up

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Speaker 5: my face in front of like everyone in the store.

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Speaker 4: So everyone in the store was watching this.

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Speaker 1: And it looked so good.

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Speaker 4: I looked really good in it.

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Speaker 5: I didn't look different to myself, but I just looked

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Speaker 5: a better version of myself. I did ask her if

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Speaker 5: she could photoshop about my double chin, to which she

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Speaker 5: said no, But yeah, I paid twenty dollars to have

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Speaker 5: my passport photo retouched.

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Speaker 1: She may regret that.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, I'm just saying, you're not even allowed

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Speaker 2: to smile in your passport picture. That's how much like

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Speaker 2: yourself you have to look. I think AM's gonna be

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Speaker 2: in trouble.

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Speaker 3: The story we're about to discuss is the French rape case,

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Speaker 3: and if you've heard about it, you'll know how confronting

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Speaker 3: some of the details are. So this is just a warning.

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Speaker 3: If you've not heard about it, or if you have

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Speaker 3: little ears around, then perhaps skip and you can come

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Speaker 3: back later. There's a tweet going viral this week by

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Speaker 3: doctor Charlotte Proudman that reads, not all men but Gizelle

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Speaker 3: Pelico's husband, who reportedly drugged and raped her for over

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Speaker 3: ten years. Not all men but ninety plus male strangers,

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Speaker 3: mostly living within one kilometer of her home. Not all men,

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Speaker 3: but men with STDs and HIV who didn't use condoms.

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Speaker 3: Not all men but her polite neighbor. The tweet refers

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Speaker 3: to what is considered one of the worst abuse trials

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Speaker 3: in France's history and the collective despair felt by women

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Speaker 3: all over the world. Gizelle Pellico married a man named

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Speaker 3: Dominique Pellico, and together they had three kids, then seven grandchildren.

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Speaker 3: They lived in a province in southeastern France. In twenty twenty,

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Speaker 3: local French police invited Gizelle to speak to them after

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Speaker 3: her husband of fifty years was arrested for filming up

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Speaker 3: women's skirts in their local town. While in this interview,

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Speaker 3: investigators presented her with an image of herself unconscious in

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Speaker 3: her bedroom. She was being raped by a man who

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Speaker 3: was not her husband. This image was just the beginning.

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Speaker 3: There were dozens of videos involving dozens and dozens of

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Speaker 3: men found on Dominique's computer under a file named abuse.

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Speaker 3: It was only then that Gizelle realized she had been

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Speaker 3: subjected to a decade of sexual abuse, orchestrated and filmed

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Speaker 3: by her husband, who drugged her with a cocktail of

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Speaker 3: medication before inviting men into their home. The trial started

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Speaker 3: last week, and Gizelle has waived her right to anonymity.

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Speaker 3: On the stand, she gave evidence for nineteen minutes explaining

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Speaker 3: how she thought she had Alzheimer's after years of memory

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Speaker 3: lapses and unexplained health problems. Dominique has admitted to the

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Speaker 3: charges against him. If this were a simpler story, we

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Speaker 3: would dismiss him as a monster a psychopath. But what

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Speaker 3: makes this crime more sinister is the willing of these

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Speaker 3: seemingly ordinary men, a polite neighbor, a local counselor, a nurse,

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Speaker 3: a former police officer, a firefighter, to perpetrate a violent

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Speaker 3: crime when invited to do so. So far, fourteen of

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Speaker 3: the defendants have confessed to aggravated rate, and not one

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Speaker 3: of these men, even those who walked away and did

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Speaker 3: not perpetrate abuse, made a phone call to police. This

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Speaker 3: is a story about bystanders and a network of men,

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Speaker 3: most sourced from the internet, who committed these depraved acts

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Speaker 3: with such apparent ease. Holly, what do you think this

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Speaker 3: story tells us.

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Speaker 2: I've been turning away from it for days because it

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Speaker 2: is just so upsetting. I think one of the reasons

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Speaker 2: why women are sharing this story so much. Obviously, it's

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Speaker 2: extreme and it's shocking, and it's not something you read

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Speaker 2: all the time, so there's a factor of it of

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Speaker 2: just like, oh gosh, I hadn't heard about this, But

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Speaker 2: women are sharing this because it feels to me least.

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Speaker 4: I know.

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Speaker 2: There are a lot of men who really smart at

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Speaker 2: the idea that one depraved man's actions at anything other

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Speaker 2: than one depraved man's actions, and they're like, it's sort

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Speaker 2: of victim blaming to cast all men with any kind

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Speaker 2: of smear about men being violent, because men are violent

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Speaker 2: against men as well, and that's true, right, But this story,

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Speaker 2: as you've said, is so much about bystanderds and it's

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Speaker 2: not actually only about bystanders. It's about a whole system.

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Speaker 2: Because the place where her husband, Dominic Pellico, went to

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Speaker 2: source these guys who wanted to come and have sex

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Speaker 2: with his unconscious wife, come and rape his unconscious wife.

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Speaker 2: Was a chat room on a social media platform called

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Speaker 2: Coco that's been closed down since then, but there was

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Speaker 2: a specific chat within that that was called something that

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Speaker 2: translates as without their knowledge. So we can imagine that

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Speaker 2: this wasn't the only particular incident of this that was

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Speaker 2: circulating on that chat room, and we can also imagine

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Speaker 2: that there are other platforms and other chat rooms that

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Speaker 2: exist where this kind of content is being shared. And

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Speaker 2: it makes women feel so unsafe because we're already being

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Speaker 2: told every day that we're imagining it that all men

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Speaker 2: are violent, and we're imagining it that all men would

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Speaker 2: condone this kind of behavior, and of course they wouldn't.

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Speaker 2: But the fact that this is her loving husband. She

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Speaker 2: is on record as saying that they were married for

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Speaker 2: fifty years and she thought they had a perfect marriage.

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Speaker 2: Not just the people around them, but she did, and

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Speaker 2: her loving husband was doing this to her for more

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Speaker 2: than a decade, and now it seems that he may

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Speaker 2: well have also been taking pictures of his daughter, his

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Speaker 2: daughter in law.

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Speaker 4: We have no.

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Speaker 2: Idea how wide these tentacles stretch. And I think the

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Speaker 2: reason that we've been are passing this story around. There's

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Speaker 2: also been some other really horrendous, high profile stories this week.

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Speaker 2: There was a woman that we all watched run a

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Speaker 2: marathon in Paris just a few weeks ago, who was

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Speaker 2: murdered by her partner just a few days ago. She's

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Speaker 2: a marathon runner called Rebecca Cheptege, and she was murdered

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Speaker 2: by her partner in the most horrific circumstances. Couple those

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Speaker 2: with the relentless barrage we get week after week about

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Speaker 2: a violent incident, and women are just feeling we're feeling crazy,

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Speaker 2: like it's not the right word. I know it's not

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Speaker 2: the right word, but this story is the kind of

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Speaker 2: story that makes you feel crazy because you're like, it's

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Speaker 2: not just one guy, as you've said, it was a

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Speaker 2: whole community of guys. I've read the mayor of this town,

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Speaker 2: who obviously doesn't want the stench of this to stick

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Speaker 2: to his town, saying, we had no idea, we didn't

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Speaker 2: really know him. They'd moved to it quite recently, and

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Speaker 2: it's not like anybody died. He said, ah, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's a possible pass there and a translation slip, but

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Speaker 2: he said, this is not like anybody died or a

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Speaker 2: child was murdered. This is a woman's rape. And if

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Speaker 2: that kind of context in a world where it feels

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Speaker 2: like our safety is not something we can guarantee, our

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Speaker 2: rights are not something we can guarantee. That's why this

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Speaker 2: story is resonating so hard. As well as the extraordinary

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Speaker 2: bravery of this woman.

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Speaker 3: That's why her testimony is so important. I don't think

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Speaker 3: anyone can quite grasp the strength of someone to sit

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Speaker 3: there for ninety minutes and talk about what happened to her.

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Speaker 3: And of course the way that a courtroom will unfold

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Speaker 3: we've seen this in Australia is that the only way

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Speaker 3: to defend any of these people is to suggest that

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Speaker 3: there was some kind of open marriage where she was

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Speaker 3: a willing participant, and that's been brought up. So she

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Speaker 3: has to sit in a courtroom where they're saying that,

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Speaker 3: where the other side is referring to it as you know,

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Speaker 3: consensual sex. But she has said some version of I

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Speaker 3: will never be okay like this. This has absolutely broken

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Speaker 3: me and I a will her children no. And oh

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Speaker 3: she described when she told her daughter and the sound

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Speaker 3: that her daughter made, she just screamed. She was so horrified.

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Speaker 3: It's the story of a wolf in sheep's clothing, because

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Speaker 3: this isn't you know. We know this and we know

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Speaker 3: about the monster myth, but this is a grandfather. This

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Speaker 3: is just an ordinary man who was able to get

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Speaker 3: on the Internet. And I think that this is the

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Speaker 3: other part of the story is that it reveals how

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Speaker 3: sinister unchecked online forums are that this was allowed to.

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Speaker 3: France has a cultural they're very sexually liberal and they

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Speaker 3: don't like to shut down.

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Speaker 2: It's not just a French thing, no, you know. One

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Speaker 2: of the reasons why the CEO of Telegram has been

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Speaker 2: arrested in France very recently is because there are a

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Speaker 2: lot of questions about all kinds of platforms that are

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Speaker 2: being very strictly defended under free speech legislation, and not

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Speaker 2: just legislation, but it's kind of the owners of them

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Speaker 2: are saying, but free speech, but free speech, we don't

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Speaker 2: have to show you what's on there that people know

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Speaker 2: are being used for terrorism activity, drug sexual assaults.

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Speaker 1: These are also not just underground websites. We know that

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Speaker 1: child sexual abuse material is being shared and connections being

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Speaker 1: made on Facebook, on Instagram, on x on all of

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Speaker 1: these places and these are crimes. To be clear, this

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Speaker 1: is not free speech, and this idea that it's free speech.

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Speaker 1: Free speech does not cover crimes. You know you said

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Speaker 1: before Hole it makes us feel crazy. Let's just go

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Speaker 1: back to Giselle here, because she talked about how she

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Speaker 1: would go to her gynecologist she was having. Can you

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Speaker 1: imagine the gynecological problems that she was having, including she

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Speaker 1: got STDs and her husband said, have you been cheating

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Speaker 1: on me?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 1: And I accused her of that? And her hair was

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Speaker 1: falling out, she was losing weight. You can only imagine

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Speaker 1: what she's had to process. And when they say that

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Speaker 1: it's from ten years ago, that's when he started filming it.

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Speaker 1: Who knows how long this has been going on. And

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Speaker 1: a few months ago in Samantha Murphy was murdered in Victoria.

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Speaker 1: When she went for a run, women were like, we

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Speaker 1: can't even go for a run. It's not about walking

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Speaker 1: home late at night or what you're wearing. We can't

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Speaker 1: even go for a run near our house in the

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Speaker 1: early morning. And now it's like we can't even sleep

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Speaker 1: in our own bed, inside our own marriage, inside our

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Speaker 1: own house and be safe.

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Speaker 2: It's that idea this might be a really naive thing

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Speaker 2: to say, but the idea that there are enough men

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Speaker 2: who want to do that, right, like who want to

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Speaker 2: have sex with an unconscious woman and use her like

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Speaker 2: a posable doll in this horrific fashion. You know, I'm

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Speaker 2: a grown woman is seeing a lot of things. It

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Speaker 2: still absolutely shocks me. And I was talking about this

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Speaker 2: case to my partner. I know not all men, but

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Speaker 2: I was like, what is wrong with you?

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Speaker 1: Lot?

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Speaker 4: What is wrong with you?

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Speaker 2: And I know it's not him, but it's when a

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Speaker 2: case like this cuts through and you have to read

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Speaker 2: this and I feel like when a woman is as

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Speaker 2: brave as Giselle is being in waiving her anonymity, her

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Speaker 2: daughter's written a book. They're trying to do a few

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Speaker 2: different things. They're trying to change laws around these kind

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Speaker 2: of platforms, and they're trying to obviously expose their husband

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Speaker 2: slash father as the monster that.

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Speaker 1: He is, and also alert women to the fact that

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Speaker 1: this is We think about date rape drugs as something

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Speaker 1: that happens in bars and nightclass the idea that it

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Speaker 1: could happen over a long period of time in your

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Speaker 1: own home. She also wants people to know if you're

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Speaker 1: having gynecological issues that you don't understand, or if you're

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Speaker 1: forgetting things or falling asleep at the table, and his

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Speaker 1: kids would say, because he's got two adult sons as

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Speaker 1: well who've been with their mother along with her daughter,

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Speaker 1: they'd be sitting at the table having dinner and she'd

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Speaker 1: fall asleep at the table, and the dad would say,

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Speaker 1: sometimes this happens, it's better if I just carry her

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Speaker 1: to bed. And they are tortured that the fact this

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Speaker 1: was happening under their.

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Speaker 2: Nose, the bravery of her, and the fact that this

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Speaker 2: has because I did see some posts earlier in the

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Speaker 2: week that were like, this should be front page news.

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Speaker 2: Everybody should know about this, and it is right. It

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Speaker 2: is a story that has broken through and gone around

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Speaker 2: the world as it should. I don't think men are

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Speaker 2: talking about but they're not exactly This is what I

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Speaker 2: mean when I was talking to my partner about it.

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Speaker 2: I'm not seeing men talk about it, and I understand

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Speaker 2: it's horrific, but I also I don't know, Like I say,

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Speaker 2: you just get to a point with these stories where

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Speaker 2: it makes you want to I don't.

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Speaker 4: Know what the word is.

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Speaker 1: I want to build a wall, like I want them away,

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Speaker 1: like I just.

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Speaker 3: It's the details. It's what you say is that you

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Speaker 3: see the headlines, but then there are just these details

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Speaker 3: which reveals something. And this is what a lot of

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Speaker 3: the analysis in France is saying, is that this is

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Speaker 3: about French culture. But although I think it's much broader

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Speaker 3: than that, doing some soul searching about how this happened,

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Speaker 3: because there are details about her meeting this man who

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Speaker 3: was a friend of her husband's and they talked about cycling,

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Speaker 3: and then she went to the bakery and said ow

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Speaker 3: low to him. He was one of the men. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so a completely ordinary guy. And the difference with the Internet,

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Speaker 3: I would say, is that the Internet gives you a

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Speaker 3: playbook and you know it's whistleblowing on the fact that

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Speaker 3: if this was some kind of sick, sadistic thing you

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Speaker 3: wanted to do, well, you know, he learned this from somewhere.

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Speaker 1: He also taught it. He's also been charged Dominic Pelico

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Speaker 1: with doing this to another man's wife, and this other

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Speaker 1: man is one of Gisel Pellico's rapists accused rapists as well,

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Speaker 1: and so clearly this is more widespread, this fantasy that

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Speaker 1: so many men have that we didn't realize not just

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Speaker 1: willing to keep it as fantasy, but that so many

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Speaker 1: men were willing to act on it, and had he

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Speaker 1: not been stopped, he was still going. He was still

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Speaker 1: doing it out loud. As This is a very heavy

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Speaker 1: story and we want you to know that there is

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Speaker 1: help always available. We have links to resources in the

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Speaker 1: show notes hell, because I can do it with the

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Speaker 1: book again.

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Speaker 2: Taylor Swift has spent the last five days doing very

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Speaker 2: public PDA filled patworks with her boyfriend Travis Kelcey, and

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Speaker 2: I'm sure it has absolutely nothing to do with the

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Speaker 2: fact that last week a rumor flew around the world

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Speaker 2: that their relationship is in fact on tractual agreement. But

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Speaker 2: I do need to check this with Mia first some context.

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Speaker 2: Swift is having a little break from world domination at

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Speaker 2: the moment. The Era's taught, which started in March last

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Speaker 2: year twenty twenty three, will finish in December this year.

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Speaker 4: My god, that woman works hard.

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Speaker 2: She's spent the northern summer in Europe and now she's

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Speaker 2: on a very well earned break until October when she

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Speaker 2: starts her last run of shows in Canada and the US.

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Speaker 2: So you wouldn't blame the woman for wanting to have

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Speaker 2: a little bit of fun. And these past few days

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Speaker 2: she's been watching her boyfriend Travis Kelsey play football in Missouri.

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Speaker 2: She went to a wedding in Manhattan, she went to

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Speaker 2: the US Open final in Flushing Meadows, and on a

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Speaker 2: fancy color coordinated dinner date with Travis, also in New

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Speaker 2: York City. Every occasion there have been pictures of arrivals

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Speaker 2: and departures, and there have been really cute couple dressing moments,

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Speaker 2: and they've been passionate up all.

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Speaker 1: Over the place.

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Speaker 2: And if you can be sure of anything, it's that

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Speaker 2: if Taylor Swift was j LO, my friend Mia would

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Speaker 2: have a lot of thoughts about just how public all

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Speaker 2: this is. And if you're thinking, but isn't a woman

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Speaker 2: allowed to go out with her boyfriend, yes, yes they are,

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Speaker 2: you'd be one hundred percent right. But the very visible

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Speaker 2: strategy is extra intriguing to people with no life like myself,

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Speaker 2: because last week the couple denied the veracity of a

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Speaker 2: contract circulating about their relationship on the letterhead of Kelsey's

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Speaker 2: PR firm, Full Scope Public Relations. This document appeared to

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Speaker 2: provide the wording for an official announcement for the news

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Speaker 2: of the couple split, which, to be honest, any of

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Speaker 2: us could have written. It was like, after careful consideration,

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Speaker 2: please respect their privacy.

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Speaker 4: Blah blah blah.

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Speaker 3: It was a whole content strategy. Doc I went really

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Speaker 3: do keep going back like I think it's real.

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Speaker 2: It was like when the announcement would happen after the split,

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Speaker 2: and there were rumors that there was a date of

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Speaker 2: their split, which was September the twenty eighth, which is

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Speaker 2: almost exactly a year since they first went public with

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Speaker 2: their dating. Blah blah blah. They have, of course denied

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Speaker 2: that it was real. The PR company came out and

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Speaker 2: said it is absolutely not real. It's fake news. But Mia,

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Speaker 2: what is going on in Travison Taylor world.

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Speaker 1: I just want to light a little candle for Tree Payne,

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Speaker 1: who is someone I admire a lot. That's Taylor Swift's publicist.

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Speaker 1: She's having quite the time at the moment because.

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Speaker 3: She would never get her document leaked, never to regard

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Speaker 3: that with her life not.

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Speaker 1: An arabt by her document.

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Speaker 2: I have to work with these amateurs.

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Speaker 1: I'm still waiting for the bio pic of Tree Payne's

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Speaker 1: life that will definitely win another Oscar for amistone. Now, look,

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Speaker 1: there's been a lot going on because also in Taylor's

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Speaker 1: orbit so much for her downtime. The squad has been

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Speaker 1: conspicuously absent. So when she's been at games in previous

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Speaker 1: last season, she was always had her posse with her.

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Speaker 1: There was Brittany Mahomes, who is the wife of Travis's

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Speaker 1: teammate Patrick Mahomes, and there's been Black Lively. There's been

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Speaker 1: a whole crew, but.

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Speaker 3: Even a little bit controversy.

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Speaker 1: Correct, all of those people were at Taylor's house after

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Speaker 1: she finished the tour for a little bit of a holiday,

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Speaker 1: but they haven't been by her side because they are

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Speaker 1: both a bit controversial. Blake Lively is currently in the

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Speaker 1: cancelation cycle because of her movie This Ends with Us

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Speaker 1: and the way she apparently was not respectful enough to

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Speaker 1: domestic violence victims. And Brittany Mahomes has been everywhere because

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Speaker 1: she endorsed a whole bunch of posts by Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: and has outed herself as a Trump voter.

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Speaker 3: Denell, just can I get to the bottom of this

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Speaker 3: because I read she just liked a few posts by Trump.

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Speaker 3: She did, but more than one, quite a few oay,

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Speaker 3: has she said the words I am voting for Donald Trump.

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Speaker 4: I don't think so.

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Speaker 1: She hasn't, But then she did one of those notes

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Speaker 1: at posts about or posted an Instagram title about isn't

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Speaker 1: it important to be able to disagree with people that

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Speaker 1: we still love them? And abuse and of course all

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Speaker 1: of these things. But given that just a few weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump retweeted some more fake shots. God, it would

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Speaker 1: be hard to be tree Paint. I mean, hard to

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Speaker 1: be Taylor, hard as to treat.

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Speaker 3: It's hard to be you, who's across all the tailors.

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Speaker 1: It's so hard to me anyway. So there's a lot

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Speaker 1: going on, right So what's interesting about these papwalks? I personally,

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Speaker 1: if I was Taylor Swift, after going around the world

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Speaker 1: for as long as she has been and she's still

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Speaker 1: not finished, and having the spotlight on me that much,

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Speaker 1: I would want to retreat and be in a dark room.

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Speaker 1: But that's not how she wants to be. And I'm

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Speaker 1: not judging that. I'm just saying it's something that I

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Speaker 1: struggle to understand because the public nature of all of this,

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Speaker 1: and she's spoken about it before and so has he

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Speaker 1: in terms of they show up to support each other

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Speaker 1: at work and work for them. It's not just going

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Speaker 1: to the office Christmas party of your partner. It's going

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Speaker 1: to football games and concerts and where there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of paparazzi.

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to understand this because it is every day

437
00:21:50,527 --> 00:21:53,127
Speaker 3: there's new shots, going out to dinner, you know, watching

438
00:21:53,167 --> 00:21:55,367
Speaker 3: the US Open. All seem like very fun activities. But

439
00:21:55,407 --> 00:21:59,847
Speaker 3: I'm like, what's the strategy behind this sudden like how

440
00:21:59,847 --> 00:22:03,287
Speaker 3: conspicuous they are. Is it possible that it has anything

441
00:22:03,287 --> 00:22:05,127
Speaker 3: to do with the VMAs that are this week?

442
00:22:05,607 --> 00:22:05,767
Speaker 1: Right?

443
00:22:05,887 --> 00:22:07,567
Speaker 3: So the VMAs are about to come up.

444
00:22:08,087 --> 00:22:10,567
Speaker 1: And I've been non for I think twelve wars.

445
00:22:10,687 --> 00:22:12,607
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's been nominated for a thousand and.

446
00:22:12,847 --> 00:22:14,567
Speaker 4: Oh that means more couple shots.

447
00:22:14,687 --> 00:22:16,607
Speaker 3: It means more couple shots, and it's going to be

448
00:22:16,727 --> 00:22:19,407
Speaker 3: very competitive because, as we talked about last week, there

449
00:22:19,447 --> 00:22:23,887
Speaker 3: are a lot of really impressive solo female artists. VMA's

450
00:22:23,887 --> 00:22:26,767
Speaker 3: a voted. Is it possible that she does need to

451
00:22:26,807 --> 00:22:29,487
Speaker 3: continue to court a bit of attention? She's tell us.

452
00:22:29,687 --> 00:22:31,487
Speaker 4: On the World Domination Tour.

453
00:22:31,647 --> 00:22:34,847
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, she's very she doesn't leave anything on the field. Though,

454
00:22:35,047 --> 00:22:38,407
Speaker 1: to use a sporting analogy, she you're right in the

455
00:22:38,447 --> 00:22:41,487
Speaker 1: same way she didn't need to release all those extra

456
00:22:41,567 --> 00:22:45,527
Speaker 1: special versions of her album to Shoulder out Chapel Roan

457
00:22:45,647 --> 00:22:48,767
Speaker 1: and Charlie XCX from the charts when they released their albums.

458
00:22:49,047 --> 00:22:54,927
Speaker 1: But she does because she's incredibly ambitious. She really likes records,

459
00:22:54,967 --> 00:22:58,727
Speaker 1: she likes objective measures of success. And what I think

460
00:22:58,767 --> 00:23:01,247
Speaker 1: is interesting this is the first boyfriend she's ever had

461
00:23:01,247 --> 00:23:03,127
Speaker 1: that we know of, in a really long time who's

462
00:23:03,167 --> 00:23:06,847
Speaker 1: been secure enough and who's enjoyed the.

463
00:23:07,847 --> 00:23:09,207
Speaker 4: That's one way of looking at it.

464
00:23:09,327 --> 00:23:12,127
Speaker 2: These secure enough, But the more cynical way of looking

465
00:23:12,167 --> 00:23:15,367
Speaker 2: at it is that he loves it, and I love

466
00:23:15,607 --> 00:23:17,767
Speaker 2: the appeal for him, and like she, of course she

467
00:23:17,807 --> 00:23:19,967
Speaker 2: needs to go and watch him play football, and out louders,

468
00:23:20,007 --> 00:23:22,047
Speaker 2: let's just raise a flag. We know this is all

469
00:23:22,087 --> 00:23:24,687
Speaker 2: silly nonsense, and that what's really going on between them

470
00:23:24,687 --> 00:23:27,687
Speaker 2: we don't know, but speculating is fun, right, Yes, she

471
00:23:27,727 --> 00:23:30,727
Speaker 2: goes watching play football, but going to watch him play football,

472
00:23:31,127 --> 00:23:33,327
Speaker 2: and I've been to lots of football games. Right in

473
00:23:33,367 --> 00:23:37,007
Speaker 2: a denim corset, hotpants and thigh high latext boots says

474
00:23:37,207 --> 00:23:40,327
Speaker 2: take my picture, It says, take my picture, and I

475
00:23:40,367 --> 00:23:43,407
Speaker 2: am here looking extra hot to support my extra hot boyfriend,

476
00:23:43,407 --> 00:23:46,047
Speaker 2: and she is, of course italientitled to do that, but

477
00:23:46,207 --> 00:23:48,767
Speaker 2: I think he loves it and she does it for him.

478
00:23:48,967 --> 00:23:50,727
Speaker 1: What it's not is very demure.

479
00:23:50,967 --> 00:23:52,047
Speaker 3: It's not that demure, but.

480
00:23:52,127 --> 00:23:53,927
Speaker 1: She's not mindful of CUTI but do you know what

481
00:23:53,967 --> 00:23:55,447
Speaker 1: it says today? And I thought that.

482
00:23:55,367 --> 00:23:57,407
Speaker 4: She'll get sick of She'll get sick of that neediness.

483
00:23:57,527 --> 00:24:01,447
Speaker 1: One reading of this is that she wants everyone to

484
00:24:01,447 --> 00:24:04,727
Speaker 1: look at her. Another reading of this is that she's

485
00:24:04,967 --> 00:24:08,447
Speaker 1: a woman who's having really great sex and she's really

486
00:24:08,487 --> 00:24:12,807
Speaker 1: feeling herself but you don't, and is really enjoying dressing

487
00:24:12,967 --> 00:24:17,487
Speaker 1: like that and feeling it's also comfortable.

488
00:24:17,007 --> 00:24:19,847
Speaker 2: To me, she needs to get her very supportive of

489
00:24:19,887 --> 00:24:21,927
Speaker 2: all that. It's you who's normally telling the women to

490
00:24:21,927 --> 00:24:24,207
Speaker 2: get their clothes back on, but apparently those rules don't

491
00:24:24,207 --> 00:24:25,327
Speaker 2: apply to our princess.

492
00:24:25,447 --> 00:24:27,407
Speaker 1: I mean nothing if not inconsistent.

493
00:24:26,967 --> 00:24:29,527
Speaker 2: But totally here for all that. She can have her

494
00:24:29,567 --> 00:24:31,447
Speaker 2: hot girl as much as she wants and wear what

495
00:24:31,487 --> 00:24:35,007
Speaker 2: she wants. But my suspicion is, as you always say,

496
00:24:35,007 --> 00:24:37,167
Speaker 2: about the fact that she's always gone for these guys

497
00:24:37,167 --> 00:24:39,447
Speaker 2: who are obsessed with privacy, and now she's got exactly

498
00:24:39,487 --> 00:24:43,007
Speaker 2: the opposite and that will become as tiresome in time.

499
00:24:43,087 --> 00:24:45,207
Speaker 4: As the guys who are always obsessed with privacy.

500
00:24:45,247 --> 00:24:47,647
Speaker 2: Because she might just want to land the couch in

501
00:24:47,647 --> 00:24:49,767
Speaker 2: her trackies, and she's been out for dinner five times

502
00:24:49,767 --> 00:24:50,767
Speaker 2: in the last five days.

503
00:24:50,847 --> 00:24:54,167
Speaker 1: I think she has agency, and I think she probably

504
00:24:54,207 --> 00:24:57,047
Speaker 1: spends plenty of time lying at home in her trackies.

505
00:24:57,047 --> 00:24:59,727
Speaker 1: And even though for us it seems like she's been

506
00:25:00,687 --> 00:25:03,767
Speaker 1: so public and everywhere, she's actually just been at work.

507
00:25:04,127 --> 00:25:07,727
Speaker 1: So when you're on tour as we have been, the

508
00:25:07,767 --> 00:25:13,287
Speaker 1: time that you're dates massively public. But then, particularly with

509
00:25:13,367 --> 00:25:15,927
Speaker 1: everything that's gone down in Europe and with what happened

510
00:25:15,927 --> 00:25:18,367
Speaker 1: in Vienna and having to cancel it and the terrorism,

511
00:25:18,727 --> 00:25:21,247
Speaker 1: she's locked down on this tour. It's not like she's

512
00:25:21,247 --> 00:25:23,727
Speaker 1: been doing this for the last year and a half.

513
00:25:23,767 --> 00:25:25,407
Speaker 1: So she wants to go out for di she's home.

514
00:25:25,567 --> 00:25:27,607
Speaker 1: She lives in New York, she's got a house there,

515
00:25:27,967 --> 00:25:30,767
Speaker 1: she's back with her boyfriend for two months. She doesn't

516
00:25:30,807 --> 00:25:34,007
Speaker 1: have to be in tour mode, where she says when

517
00:25:34,007 --> 00:25:37,447
Speaker 1: she's touring and she's performing, she doesn't drink because she says,

518
00:25:37,487 --> 00:25:38,847
Speaker 1: I never want to know what it's like to do

519
00:25:38,927 --> 00:25:43,447
Speaker 1: that show, to hang over, so she's essentially been working

520
00:25:43,487 --> 00:25:44,807
Speaker 1: back to back for a long time. I think it's

521
00:25:44,807 --> 00:25:45,687
Speaker 1: her time to shine.

522
00:25:45,487 --> 00:25:47,287
Speaker 2: Fair enough, and we love her and she can do

523
00:25:47,327 --> 00:25:48,967
Speaker 2: what she wants. What I need to know from you

524
00:25:49,047 --> 00:25:50,887
Speaker 2: is what you thought about the leaked document.

525
00:25:51,247 --> 00:25:55,527
Speaker 1: I thought that everybody's got a plan, and it's not

526
00:25:55,647 --> 00:25:59,247
Speaker 1: out of the realms of possibility to have a breakup

527
00:25:59,247 --> 00:26:02,927
Speaker 1: announcement plan, right like, I'm sure they've got a engagement plan.

528
00:26:03,087 --> 00:26:06,247
Speaker 1: And she is pregnant. Guess what, I'm having his baby

529
00:26:06,407 --> 00:26:07,367
Speaker 1: that guess what I'm lying.

530
00:26:08,567 --> 00:26:12,207
Speaker 3: As someone who does understand this stuff, it seems so

531
00:26:12,287 --> 00:26:14,967
Speaker 3: obvious now, but it's not something that I assumed existed.

532
00:26:15,047 --> 00:26:18,047
Speaker 3: So what I spent my weekend doing was zooming in

533
00:26:18,127 --> 00:26:20,407
Speaker 3: on all the details of the content plan.

534
00:26:20,527 --> 00:26:22,727
Speaker 1: But Jesse, it's like us preparing o bits for famous

535
00:26:22,727 --> 00:26:25,247
Speaker 1: people who are near death. You just got to be prepared.

536
00:26:25,247 --> 00:26:27,047
Speaker 1: What were some of the details that stood out to you.

537
00:26:27,047 --> 00:26:29,887
Speaker 3: I'm just obsessed, all right. So the plan gives an

538
00:26:29,887 --> 00:26:33,927
Speaker 3: example statement of what he's going to say and the

539
00:26:33,967 --> 00:26:36,287
Speaker 3: whole point of the content strategy in case you're wondering,

540
00:26:36,327 --> 00:26:38,687
Speaker 3: And this is like a work document, this is what's fascinating.

541
00:26:38,927 --> 00:26:42,607
Speaker 3: He retains a positive public image, minimizes negative media portrayal,

542
00:26:42,647 --> 00:26:45,567
Speaker 3: and continues to build his personal and professional brand. He's

543
00:26:45,567 --> 00:26:49,167
Speaker 3: only allowed to talk to ESPN, Vanity Fair, and People magazine.

544
00:26:49,247 --> 00:26:52,087
Speaker 3: And if you're wondering what he's talking points are, don't

545
00:26:52,127 --> 00:26:53,567
Speaker 3: know what he's talking points are because he has to

546
00:26:53,567 --> 00:26:54,487
Speaker 3: actually see the tracks.

547
00:26:54,487 --> 00:26:55,207
Speaker 1: This is a good plan.

548
00:26:55,367 --> 00:26:58,007
Speaker 3: They have to conduct some mock interviews with him so

549
00:26:58,047 --> 00:27:01,247
Speaker 3: that he's prepared, but he has to say that he

550
00:27:01,367 --> 00:27:04,967
Speaker 3: has respect for Taylor Swift and their mutual decision to

551
00:27:05,167 --> 00:27:08,167
Speaker 3: part ways. Yeah, they had social media where the tile

552
00:27:08,287 --> 00:27:11,287
Speaker 3: was going to be posted. Okay, obviously they look very

553
00:27:11,367 --> 00:27:14,967
Speaker 3: much together at the moment. But this document, if it

554
00:27:15,087 --> 00:27:17,447
Speaker 3: was real. The thing I can't make sense of is

555
00:27:17,487 --> 00:27:17,927
Speaker 3: the date.

556
00:27:18,647 --> 00:27:20,927
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the flag, because I think that it would

557
00:27:20,927 --> 00:27:24,127
Speaker 1: be very sensible and perhaps reckless not to have this document.

558
00:27:24,527 --> 00:27:27,767
Speaker 1: But it doesn't mean that the relationship's fake. I think

559
00:27:27,807 --> 00:27:31,407
Speaker 1: that the date implied that it could. Maybe they were

560
00:27:31,447 --> 00:27:35,167
Speaker 1: just going say it's on this date, how would we react?

561
00:27:35,367 --> 00:27:37,967
Speaker 1: But I think that what the whole subtext of this was,

562
00:27:38,007 --> 00:27:40,327
Speaker 1: and waver and got very excited, was the idea that

563
00:27:40,367 --> 00:27:43,967
Speaker 1: it was a fake relationship. And I think that while

564
00:27:44,127 --> 00:27:45,967
Speaker 1: parts of the document might be real and the content

565
00:27:45,967 --> 00:27:48,407
Speaker 1: plan might be real, is it a fake what? I

566
00:27:48,407 --> 00:27:50,687
Speaker 1: can see why he would need it, She doesn't really

567
00:27:50,727 --> 00:27:52,927
Speaker 1: need it. I just don't think they could be bothered,

568
00:27:52,927 --> 00:27:55,127
Speaker 1: to be honest, But I could be wrong. It's almost

569
00:27:55,167 --> 00:27:57,127
Speaker 1: a bit exciting if I was wrong, because it would

570
00:27:57,127 --> 00:28:00,527
Speaker 1: be quite exciting to think that this whole thing would.

571
00:28:00,287 --> 00:28:02,967
Speaker 2: See the validation that would be the motivation for this

572
00:28:03,047 --> 00:28:06,727
Speaker 2: relationship to be fake, because, as we've just discussed, Taylor

573
00:28:06,767 --> 00:28:09,527
Speaker 2: Swift Will, being very ambitious and successful, does not need

574
00:28:09,527 --> 00:28:11,727
Speaker 2: the publicity like she is in charge of the world.

575
00:28:11,767 --> 00:28:14,247
Speaker 2: Whether she's dating Travis Kelsey or not. Well, it's good

576
00:28:14,327 --> 00:28:16,327
Speaker 2: for him. He's got a lot more to gain from

577
00:28:16,367 --> 00:28:18,167
Speaker 2: it than she does. Why would she be in a

578
00:28:18,167 --> 00:28:19,407
Speaker 2: fake relationship.

579
00:28:19,287 --> 00:28:24,767
Speaker 1: Because it's upended the trope of Taylor Swift childless cat lady,

580
00:28:25,247 --> 00:28:27,887
Speaker 1: can't get a man. No one's saying that about her,

581
00:28:27,927 --> 00:28:31,287
Speaker 1: you know, can't hold a relationship or choose through all

582
00:28:31,327 --> 00:28:33,847
Speaker 1: these guys to show her with someone who's her.

583
00:28:33,807 --> 00:28:37,487
Speaker 3: Equal, wholesome, all American. If you think about the ven diagram,

584
00:28:37,487 --> 00:28:39,407
Speaker 3: as we talked about, it's a whole new the Super

585
00:28:39,407 --> 00:28:43,007
Speaker 3: Bowl audience, I mean that moment with something written for

586
00:28:43,087 --> 00:28:45,767
Speaker 3: a movie, and in terms of Travis Kelsey.

587
00:28:45,887 --> 00:28:48,247
Speaker 2: Like it's not her equal. I'm sorry, but he.

588
00:28:48,367 --> 00:28:51,327
Speaker 3: At the moment has his acting yield. He has his

589
00:28:51,407 --> 00:28:55,127
Speaker 3: acting debut coming up, He's hosting something on an Amazon

590
00:28:55,287 --> 00:28:58,327
Speaker 3: game show. His career is skyrocketing.

591
00:28:58,567 --> 00:28:59,767
Speaker 4: He gives me the ick.

592
00:29:02,127 --> 00:29:03,647
Speaker 2: Out loud as if you want to listen to us

593
00:29:03,767 --> 00:29:06,167
Speaker 2: every day of the week, and why wouldn't you. You

594
00:29:06,207 --> 00:29:09,887
Speaker 2: can get access to exclusive segments on Tuesdays and Thursdays

595
00:29:10,047 --> 00:29:13,327
Speaker 2: by becoming a Mom and Mere subscriber. Follow the link

596
00:29:13,367 --> 00:29:16,087
Speaker 2: in the show notes to subscribe, and a big thank

597
00:29:16,127 --> 00:29:24,967
Speaker 2: you to all our current subscribers. Are you last?

598
00:29:29,207 --> 00:29:30,007
Speaker 5: Supher's Mom?

599
00:29:30,127 --> 00:29:35,727
Speaker 2: I no, no, not, it's just you know I taken

600
00:29:35,807 --> 00:29:36,127
Speaker 2: the tour.

601
00:29:37,567 --> 00:29:39,487
Speaker 1: Twenty twenty four seems to be the year of the

602
00:29:39,527 --> 00:29:42,607
Speaker 1: milf in Hollywood, with a series of movies and streaming

603
00:29:42,687 --> 00:29:46,447
Speaker 1: series about older women who are having relationships with younger men,

604
00:29:46,767 --> 00:29:49,127
Speaker 1: and many of them start a Cole Kidman, such as

605
00:29:49,247 --> 00:29:52,047
Speaker 1: A Family Affair on Netflix where Nicole Kidman, who is

606
00:29:52,087 --> 00:29:56,247
Speaker 1: fifty eight, has a relationship with zac Efron's character and

607
00:29:56,567 --> 00:29:59,967
Speaker 1: he is thirty six in real life. Then there was

608
00:30:00,287 --> 00:30:03,287
Speaker 1: her movie which she's just one best actress for at

609
00:30:03,327 --> 00:30:06,687
Speaker 1: the Venice Film Festival called Baby Girl, where she has

610
00:30:06,727 --> 00:30:09,807
Speaker 1: a relationship with an intern at her law firm or

611
00:30:09,807 --> 00:30:12,407
Speaker 1: wherever as she was, and that actor is twenty eight.

612
00:30:12,447 --> 00:30:15,087
Speaker 1: His name's Harris Dickinson. And then, of course a few

613
00:30:15,127 --> 00:30:17,887
Speaker 1: months ago there was the idea of you with Anne Hathaway,

614
00:30:17,927 --> 00:30:21,047
Speaker 1: who is forty one, who was having a relationship with

615
00:30:21,087 --> 00:30:24,127
Speaker 1: a boy band guy. Nick Gallantine played that character and

616
00:30:24,167 --> 00:30:26,687
Speaker 1: he's twenty nine. So you can see a bit of

617
00:30:26,767 --> 00:30:29,807
Speaker 1: a pattern forming in Hollywood because more women are dating

618
00:30:29,847 --> 00:30:32,487
Speaker 1: younger men in real life. So Hollywood's obviously following the

619
00:30:32,527 --> 00:30:36,167
Speaker 1: money by meeting this audience appetite from women to see

620
00:30:36,167 --> 00:30:40,287
Speaker 1: these kinds of relationships depicted on screen. However, you would

621
00:30:40,327 --> 00:30:42,847
Speaker 1: not know this by looking at the red carpet at

622
00:30:42,887 --> 00:30:46,447
Speaker 1: the Venice Film Festival. That's where a bunch of new

623
00:30:46,567 --> 00:30:50,967
Speaker 1: and old relationships have premiered this week, highlighting a tale

624
00:30:51,127 --> 00:30:54,727
Speaker 1: as old as time. Older men like younger women. Oh

625
00:30:54,767 --> 00:30:57,447
Speaker 1: press pause, write that down in case you forget. And

626
00:30:57,607 --> 00:31:00,047
Speaker 1: it seems that the more status the men have, the

627
00:31:00,087 --> 00:31:02,767
Speaker 1: bigger the age gap. Some of the couples on the

628
00:31:02,847 --> 00:31:06,207
Speaker 1: red carpet. This week include Brad pitt Age sixty with

629
00:31:06,327 --> 00:31:10,567
Speaker 1: his girlfriend Ines de Ramon, who is thirty four. That's

630
00:31:10,567 --> 00:31:11,287
Speaker 1: a twenty six.

631
00:31:11,247 --> 00:31:12,247
Speaker 3: Year she's my age.

632
00:31:13,487 --> 00:31:17,167
Speaker 2: You could be, George, imagine that for a minute, because

633
00:31:17,167 --> 00:31:19,447
Speaker 2: I know you're all for the age cut relationships. Imagine

634
00:31:19,527 --> 00:31:21,967
Speaker 2: dating a sixty year old. How would you feel about that?

635
00:31:22,207 --> 00:31:23,287
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that's my dad.

636
00:31:24,527 --> 00:31:26,247
Speaker 1: I was about to say you'd feel rich, but that

637
00:31:26,327 --> 00:31:29,527
Speaker 1: is also your dad, which is weird. George Clooney sixty

638
00:31:29,567 --> 00:31:33,087
Speaker 1: three was on the Red Carpet with his wife Ama Glooney.

639
00:31:33,207 --> 00:31:36,687
Speaker 1: She's forty six. That is a seventeen year gap. Richard Gear,

640
00:31:36,887 --> 00:31:40,687
Speaker 1: remember Richard Gear, pretty woman, Richard Gear seventy five now

641
00:31:40,847 --> 00:31:43,927
Speaker 1: and he's with his I don't know, third fourth wife.

642
00:31:44,007 --> 00:31:47,247
Speaker 1: Her name's Alejandra Silver and she's forty one, so they

643
00:31:47,287 --> 00:31:50,927
Speaker 1: have a thirty four year age gap. Remember Jennifer Aniston's

644
00:31:50,927 --> 00:31:56,007
Speaker 1: ex husband, Justinirs and the cousin. He's fifty three. Jennifer

645
00:31:56,007 --> 00:31:59,807
Speaker 1: Aniston had been what fifty five fifty seven by now

646
00:32:00,487 --> 00:32:04,287
Speaker 1: he's with his new fiance, she's thirty. They have a

647
00:32:04,327 --> 00:32:07,087
Speaker 1: twenty three year age gap, and this was interesting. Emma

648
00:32:07,167 --> 00:32:10,447
Speaker 1: Corn twenty eight is dating Rami Mark who is forty three.

649
00:32:10,487 --> 00:32:13,807
Speaker 1: They've got a fifteen year age gap. Anyway, it made

650
00:32:13,847 --> 00:32:17,687
Speaker 1: me feel angry and depressed. I mean, not angry.

651
00:32:18,727 --> 00:32:21,767
Speaker 3: Because I might be imagining it, but I'm sensing a

652
00:32:21,807 --> 00:32:25,727
Speaker 3: bit of snart. I'm sensing so much a sense from

653
00:32:25,727 --> 00:32:26,847
Speaker 3: both of you.

654
00:32:27,607 --> 00:32:31,567
Speaker 1: From please it comes from insecurity now, it does comes

655
00:32:31,607 --> 00:32:36,367
Speaker 1: from the idea that society tells us. And oh look,

656
00:32:36,687 --> 00:32:42,047
Speaker 1: it's kind of true that older women are not desirable,

657
00:32:42,567 --> 00:32:46,607
Speaker 1: are not worthy of being with men their own age,

658
00:32:46,887 --> 00:32:49,687
Speaker 1: and that all men, really, when they've got the power

659
00:32:49,687 --> 00:32:53,167
Speaker 1: and the money and the status, will trade in their

660
00:32:53,327 --> 00:32:55,407
Speaker 1: old partner for a much younger maman.

661
00:32:55,567 --> 00:32:59,727
Speaker 3: Is this new or surprising? Like that desire is socially constructed? Like,

662
00:32:59,767 --> 00:33:00,607
Speaker 3: are we angry?

663
00:33:01,687 --> 00:33:03,007
Speaker 1: I think your Clooney.

664
00:33:02,727 --> 00:33:04,447
Speaker 3: Or brad pet would choose a younger woman.

665
00:33:04,287 --> 00:33:05,847
Speaker 1: As you get older. It feels very personal.

666
00:33:05,927 --> 00:33:07,047
Speaker 4: I see, I don't agree.

667
00:33:07,487 --> 00:33:10,167
Speaker 2: I also roll my eyes so high of sprender Corney

668
00:33:10,207 --> 00:33:12,847
Speaker 2: are over these relationships, like it is so boring and

669
00:33:12,967 --> 00:33:18,327
Speaker 2: so predictable, and it makes you almost like ridiculously grateful

670
00:33:18,367 --> 00:33:22,007
Speaker 2: for couples who actually like are both of a certain age.

671
00:33:22,047 --> 00:33:25,047
Speaker 1: You know, Keanu Reeves was out with his girlfriend and

672
00:33:25,087 --> 00:33:25,927
Speaker 1: she had gray hair and.

673
00:33:25,887 --> 00:33:29,327
Speaker 2: We were like that man is our hero, or like,

674
00:33:29,487 --> 00:33:32,007
Speaker 2: you know, that's why everybody loves Kevin Bacon and Caia

675
00:33:32,087 --> 00:33:35,567
Speaker 2: Sedgwick on TikTok and stuff, because they're like grown ups

676
00:33:35,607 --> 00:33:37,647
Speaker 2: who date each other like they're to get Like people

677
00:33:37,647 --> 00:33:40,127
Speaker 2: were so grateful because this is so boring. But I

678
00:33:40,167 --> 00:33:42,807
Speaker 2: don't agree with you. It doesn't make me feel insecure

679
00:33:42,927 --> 00:33:45,527
Speaker 2: and unattractive, because let's be honest, I never really thought

680
00:33:45,527 --> 00:33:47,127
Speaker 2: that the brad Pitts of the world were going for me.

681
00:33:47,127 --> 00:33:47,527
Speaker 4: Anyway.

682
00:33:48,167 --> 00:33:51,287
Speaker 2: It makes me think less of them. It makes me

683
00:33:51,527 --> 00:33:53,967
Speaker 2: think and I know I've sounded a bit man bashi

684
00:33:54,047 --> 00:33:57,327
Speaker 2: in different ways in this episode, but it makes me think,

685
00:33:58,247 --> 00:33:59,487
Speaker 2: how sad for you?

686
00:33:59,487 --> 00:34:00,087
Speaker 4: You know what I mean?

687
00:34:00,167 --> 00:34:04,087
Speaker 2: Not that I think those women aren't interesting, smart, engaging women.

688
00:34:04,207 --> 00:34:06,167
Speaker 1: I wouldn't been adding too many candles for George Clooney

689
00:34:06,167 --> 00:34:06,847
Speaker 1: at this point, but.

690
00:34:06,887 --> 00:34:09,847
Speaker 2: I just feel like, well, no, George Kline, I feel

691
00:34:09,847 --> 00:34:12,927
Speaker 2: slightly different about why is that? But anyway, I feel

692
00:34:12,967 --> 00:34:13,847
Speaker 2: like it's because.

693
00:34:14,007 --> 00:34:16,207
Speaker 3: I think it's because of how established, amal.

694
00:34:16,127 --> 00:34:17,887
Speaker 2: And amazing she is. But I'm sure that all these

695
00:34:17,887 --> 00:34:19,607
Speaker 2: other women are also amazing in their own ways. They

696
00:34:19,647 --> 00:34:21,607
Speaker 2: might not be human rights lawyers saving the world. But

697
00:34:21,647 --> 00:34:23,847
Speaker 2: I'm sure they've got their own stuff going on. But

698
00:34:23,927 --> 00:34:27,487
Speaker 2: it's just so predictable and boring because it speaks to

699
00:34:27,487 --> 00:34:31,607
Speaker 2: me of their insecurity. Like dating younger women is a

700
00:34:31,647 --> 00:34:34,407
Speaker 2: thing that middle aged men do to make them feel young.

701
00:34:34,767 --> 00:34:37,327
Speaker 2: We're all as we get to a certain age, grappling

702
00:34:37,367 --> 00:34:41,727
Speaker 2: with our relevancy, our attractiveness in different ways, not only sexually.

703
00:34:41,847 --> 00:34:43,727
Speaker 2: But are we still relevant in the workplace? Are we

704
00:34:43,807 --> 00:34:45,767
Speaker 2: still worthy of attention? And will people still listen to

705
00:34:45,807 --> 00:34:48,087
Speaker 2: us when we talk like Women are wrestling with that

706
00:34:48,127 --> 00:34:50,687
Speaker 2: all the time, and so are men in a different way.

707
00:34:50,727 --> 00:34:52,767
Speaker 2: And one of the things that makes them feel young

708
00:34:52,807 --> 00:34:55,487
Speaker 2: and vibrant is the idea that a young woman still

709
00:34:55,487 --> 00:34:57,927
Speaker 2: wants to have sex with them, right. It makes them

710
00:34:57,927 --> 00:35:00,207
Speaker 2: feel good. And so when I look at your Brad

711
00:35:00,247 --> 00:35:03,167
Speaker 2: Pitts and I think you couldn't handle a grown up

712
00:35:03,207 --> 00:35:07,647
Speaker 2: woman like it makes me single. It makes me feel

713
00:35:07,687 --> 00:35:10,727
Speaker 2: like he must be having a midlife.

714
00:35:10,887 --> 00:35:13,247
Speaker 3: I don't have a single feeling about it.

715
00:35:13,567 --> 00:35:13,727
Speaker 2: You know.

716
00:35:13,727 --> 00:35:16,687
Speaker 3: I looked through these pictures and I just shrugged, and

717
00:35:16,727 --> 00:35:19,087
Speaker 3: I thought, let them, like let them.

718
00:35:19,127 --> 00:35:22,047
Speaker 2: But yeah, of course, let them. No one's suggesting I'm

719
00:35:22,047 --> 00:35:24,167
Speaker 2: gonna do what Meha always says to me. No one's

720
00:35:24,207 --> 00:35:27,927
Speaker 2: suggesting that they should be arrested or like forcibly broken up,

721
00:35:28,047 --> 00:35:31,607
Speaker 2: or we should be handing them contracts like their breakup announcement.

722
00:35:31,527 --> 00:35:32,527
Speaker 1: They should be in prison.

723
00:35:33,087 --> 00:35:35,487
Speaker 2: But I think that the age thing is that we've

724
00:35:35,487 --> 00:35:37,247
Speaker 2: seen it so many times for so long that we

725
00:35:37,287 --> 00:35:39,247
Speaker 2: find it hard to swallow. Just the idea that this

726
00:35:39,967 --> 00:35:42,087
Speaker 2: one person who was perfect for you in the world

727
00:35:42,247 --> 00:35:44,127
Speaker 2: just happened to still be in her thirties when you

728
00:35:44,167 --> 00:35:46,967
Speaker 2: were in your sixties is like harder than ever.

729
00:35:47,287 --> 00:35:51,167
Speaker 3: I was doing some research and some studies find that

730
00:35:51,247 --> 00:35:54,927
Speaker 3: the relationship satisfaction reported by age gap couples, which is

731
00:35:54,967 --> 00:35:58,767
Speaker 3: defined as more than ten years, is higher. And the

732
00:35:58,807 --> 00:36:02,647
Speaker 3: biggest thing that they face is like this social judgment

733
00:36:02,807 --> 00:36:05,607
Speaker 3: is that they feel like everyone's judging them, and especially women.

734
00:36:05,767 --> 00:36:08,727
Speaker 3: Younger women get it a lot from other women who

735
00:36:08,767 --> 00:36:11,287
Speaker 3: are very judgmental of I don't really.

736
00:36:11,047 --> 00:36:13,287
Speaker 2: Have feelings about the women. I only have feelings about

737
00:36:13,287 --> 00:36:13,527
Speaker 2: the man.

738
00:36:13,567 --> 00:36:16,007
Speaker 1: That's interesting well, that the idea is that the women

739
00:36:16,087 --> 00:36:18,727
Speaker 1: either have daddy issues or their gold diggers and that's

740
00:36:18,767 --> 00:36:19,287
Speaker 1: not fair.

741
00:36:20,487 --> 00:36:22,887
Speaker 3: Exploited, or they don't have agency. There's a great quote

742
00:36:22,927 --> 00:36:26,047
Speaker 3: by down Savage. He says, we are status obsessed, power

743
00:36:26,087 --> 00:36:29,567
Speaker 3: obsessed primates, always jockeying for control socially and also in

744
00:36:29,567 --> 00:36:34,807
Speaker 3: our interpersonal relationships. There's no interpersonal relationship without power differentials,

745
00:36:34,927 --> 00:36:38,047
Speaker 3: without advantages or disadvantages. And if you want to correct

746
00:36:38,047 --> 00:36:41,687
Speaker 3: for that or eliminate that, you have to eliminate human relationships.

747
00:36:42,087 --> 00:36:43,887
Speaker 3: And that's how I feel about this stuff. It happens

748
00:36:43,887 --> 00:36:46,087
Speaker 3: in every country. It's not a Western world thing, happens

749
00:36:46,127 --> 00:36:47,487
Speaker 3: in every country in the world.

750
00:36:47,847 --> 00:36:51,127
Speaker 1: That of course it does Jesse because women are valued

751
00:36:51,327 --> 00:36:54,847
Speaker 1: for their youth and their fertility. Like it happens only

752
00:36:54,887 --> 00:36:58,407
Speaker 1: one way, though, and that's why these movies are such outlies.

753
00:36:58,447 --> 00:37:00,967
Speaker 1: Like imagine if I listed all the movies and TVs

754
00:37:01,087 --> 00:37:05,047
Speaker 1: shows that had age gaps the usual way, I can

755
00:37:05,127 --> 00:37:07,607
Speaker 1: see that there's a lot of satisfaction. And I've got

756
00:37:07,647 --> 00:37:10,207
Speaker 1: a lot of friends who've dated much younger guys, particularly

757
00:37:10,287 --> 00:37:14,407
Speaker 1: after their divorces, and I can see why that works

758
00:37:14,567 --> 00:37:17,287
Speaker 1: because often the guys aren't ready to have kids yet,

759
00:37:17,287 --> 00:37:19,087
Speaker 1: and the women have had their kids, they don't want

760
00:37:19,127 --> 00:37:22,847
Speaker 1: anything too serious, and it's been good and it's been

761
00:37:22,967 --> 00:37:25,927
Speaker 1: interesting and satisfying for them both for a time, sometimes

762
00:37:25,927 --> 00:37:27,807
Speaker 1: for a long time and sometimes for a shorter time.

763
00:37:28,767 --> 00:37:30,527
Speaker 1: It's as taylor as old as time, as I said,

764
00:37:30,647 --> 00:37:34,887
Speaker 1: And it feels personally insulting. And I feel attacked by

765
00:37:34,927 --> 00:37:37,407
Speaker 1: this red carpet. I feel attacked by the men that

766
00:37:37,447 --> 00:37:41,487
Speaker 1: are on it with they're young women. I feel attacked,

767
00:37:41,887 --> 00:37:43,767
Speaker 1: I think, and I will.

768
00:37:43,647 --> 00:37:46,247
Speaker 3: Kind of go, go no offense to these people, right,

769
00:37:46,527 --> 00:37:48,847
Speaker 3: but they're on a red carpet. They're celebrities.

770
00:37:48,927 --> 00:37:49,247
Speaker 1: I know.

771
00:37:49,367 --> 00:37:51,687
Speaker 3: To suggest that these people care about things such as

772
00:37:51,927 --> 00:37:55,927
Speaker 3: power and money and fame and status is hardly surprising

773
00:37:55,967 --> 00:37:59,207
Speaker 3: to me. I do not mean that any of these people, like, yes,

774
00:37:59,247 --> 00:38:02,767
Speaker 3: we see it now everyday lives. But I don't think

775
00:38:02,807 --> 00:38:07,207
Speaker 3: that every man is sitting there wishing that he was

776
00:38:07,247 --> 00:38:08,447
Speaker 3: with someone twenty years younger.

777
00:38:08,527 --> 00:38:11,327
Speaker 1: Yes, I think that when you get older, without wanting

778
00:38:11,327 --> 00:38:14,167
Speaker 1: to sound condescending, that thing about you can't be what

779
00:38:14,207 --> 00:38:16,247
Speaker 1: you can't see, which is not true, because you can

780
00:38:16,327 --> 00:38:19,367
Speaker 1: be it. In this instance, it's just can be hard

781
00:38:19,367 --> 00:38:21,887
Speaker 1: to feel good about it. When you don't see any

782
00:38:21,927 --> 00:38:27,407
Speaker 1: of your famous male contemporaries dating women of your age

783
00:38:27,687 --> 00:38:30,807
Speaker 1: of their age, you do start to feel a bit

784
00:38:30,887 --> 00:38:31,807
Speaker 1: like you're going crazy.

785
00:38:31,927 --> 00:38:34,287
Speaker 2: We were talking about this recently. What were we watching

786
00:38:34,287 --> 00:38:37,007
Speaker 2: when we were like, oh, Hollywood's really old now the

787
00:38:37,007 --> 00:38:38,047
Speaker 2: logis Oh it.

788
00:38:38,087 --> 00:38:38,607
Speaker 3: Was the logis.

789
00:38:38,687 --> 00:38:41,087
Speaker 2: So that wasn't even Hollywood, that was just Australian television.

790
00:38:41,127 --> 00:38:43,127
Speaker 2: But my point being that there are a lot of

791
00:38:43,207 --> 00:38:46,367
Speaker 2: incredible women in their fifties in Hollywood, right, A lot

792
00:38:46,367 --> 00:38:49,847
Speaker 2: of incredible women in their fifties, and they're not really

793
00:38:49,847 --> 00:38:52,207
Speaker 2: on this red carpet with their partners. I know, we're

794
00:38:52,207 --> 00:38:55,887
Speaker 2: looking specifically Jesus, but they're mostly they're by themselves.

795
00:38:56,087 --> 00:38:59,207
Speaker 3: Yes they are, and I think that's Hones and your Jolays,

796
00:38:59,327 --> 00:38:59,687
Speaker 3: which is.

797
00:38:59,687 --> 00:39:03,447
Speaker 2: Ironic considering Brad Pitt was their common denominator. Very often

798
00:39:03,447 --> 00:39:06,047
Speaker 2: there by themselves or they've had late life divorces. And

799
00:39:06,567 --> 00:39:08,727
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that because I don't think anybody wants

800
00:39:09,047 --> 00:39:11,207
Speaker 2: to be with them, because of course they do, like

801
00:39:11,207 --> 00:39:15,047
Speaker 2: they're incredibly gorgeous, attractive and accomplished people, but they are

802
00:39:15,087 --> 00:39:16,047
Speaker 2: sick of this bullshit.

803
00:39:16,047 --> 00:39:18,087
Speaker 4: I would suggest, right, why would.

804
00:39:17,887 --> 00:39:20,647
Speaker 2: You want to be with a guy who only thinks

805
00:39:20,727 --> 00:39:23,687
Speaker 2: that attractiveness exists under the age of thirty?

806
00:39:23,727 --> 00:39:24,927
Speaker 4: Like Leonardo DiCaprio.

807
00:39:25,127 --> 00:39:27,887
Speaker 2: You're so right that there's nothing surprising about it, and

808
00:39:27,927 --> 00:39:30,327
Speaker 2: that's why it's worthy of comment, really, is that this

809
00:39:30,447 --> 00:39:34,087
Speaker 2: needle doesn't shift. This trope hasn't moved, as women have

810
00:39:34,167 --> 00:39:36,647
Speaker 2: got a lot more power in a lot more areas

811
00:39:36,647 --> 00:39:39,367
Speaker 2: of life that are actually way more important, of course

812
00:39:39,407 --> 00:39:44,527
Speaker 2: than red carpet relationships. This aspirational trope of the kind

813
00:39:44,567 --> 00:39:48,647
Speaker 2: of woman, a rich, successful man in his fifties or

814
00:39:48,687 --> 00:39:51,367
Speaker 2: sixties or seventies, in Richard Gears case, once in their

815
00:39:51,487 --> 00:39:56,967
Speaker 2: arms will not shift is interesting. It's depressing, but it's interesting.

816
00:39:57,807 --> 00:40:00,087
Speaker 1: Out loaders, We've talked about a lot of things today,

817
00:40:00,327 --> 00:40:04,207
Speaker 1: and you might just want to keep listening to our voices. Well,

818
00:40:04,327 --> 00:40:06,447
Speaker 1: you can keep listening to mine. We've all got other

819
00:40:06,607 --> 00:40:08,207
Speaker 1: podcasts that you can listen to. But there is an

820
00:40:08,247 --> 00:40:11,047
Speaker 1: episode of No Filter I'd really like to recommend this

821
00:40:11,047 --> 00:40:13,407
Speaker 1: week that will just put a smile on your dial.

822
00:40:13,767 --> 00:40:16,967
Speaker 1: It's a mother and daughter talking about age gaps and

823
00:40:17,247 --> 00:40:22,527
Speaker 1: the mother she offered to carry the daughter's child baby.

824
00:40:24,047 --> 00:40:27,887
Speaker 1: And it got me once you listen, out louders, if

825
00:40:27,927 --> 00:40:30,127
Speaker 1: you listened all the way to the end, I do

826
00:40:30,327 --> 00:40:33,527
Speaker 1: talk a little bit at the end about volunteering my

827
00:40:33,607 --> 00:40:35,207
Speaker 1: services to you.

828
00:40:35,447 --> 00:40:37,207
Speaker 3: I don't just being pregnant okay.

829
00:40:37,287 --> 00:40:41,207
Speaker 1: And I loved it. I would be honored. Thank you

830
00:40:41,967 --> 00:40:45,407
Speaker 1: for asking me. Out Louders. We'll put a link in

831
00:40:45,447 --> 00:40:48,767
Speaker 1: the show notes and we will live stream. It's a

832
00:40:48,847 --> 00:40:53,367
Speaker 1: scoop the birth of Jesse's baby out of my vagina.

833
00:40:55,287 --> 00:40:57,847
Speaker 2: A massive thank you to all of you out louders

834
00:40:57,847 --> 00:41:01,167
Speaker 2: who stuck with us through that, particularly that last part.

835
00:41:01,607 --> 00:41:04,367
Speaker 2: We appreciate you as always, and thank you, of course

836
00:41:04,407 --> 00:41:06,287
Speaker 2: to our wonderful team for putting this show together. We're

837
00:41:06,287 --> 00:41:07,967
Speaker 2: going to be back in your ears tomorrow.

838
00:41:08,127 --> 00:41:12,927
Speaker 3: Bye. Shout out to any Muma Mea subscribers listening. If

839
00:41:12,967 --> 00:41:14,927
Speaker 3: you love the show and you want to support us,

840
00:41:15,167 --> 00:41:18,087
Speaker 3: subscribing to Momma Mia is the very best way to

841
00:41:18,167 --> 00:41:20,567
Speaker 3: do so. There's a link in the episode description.