1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:16,182 Speaker 1: You're listening too. A Mother MEA podcast, Mother Mea acknowledges 2 00:00:16,222 --> 00:00:19,702 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waders. This podcast was 3 00:00:19,742 --> 00:00:26,302 Speaker 1: recorded on It's about eleven PM in the winter of 4 00:00:26,382 --> 00:00:29,502 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four in a suburban street in Melbourne, and 5 00:00:29,582 --> 00:00:33,142 Speaker 1: Rosalind Bomford wakes with a start. She can hear what 6 00:00:33,222 --> 00:00:36,182 Speaker 1: sounds like a muffled scream coming from the neighbor's house. 7 00:00:36,862 --> 00:00:41,902 Speaker 1: She waits listening. Her dog growls, but then there's silence. 8 00:00:42,662 --> 00:00:48,382 Speaker 1: Surely she was mistaken. Across the street, another neighbor hears 9 00:00:48,422 --> 00:00:52,342 Speaker 1: a sound. Closer to midnight. The Tap family dog is howling. 10 00:00:52,982 --> 00:00:57,502 Speaker 1: They've never heard the little dog so frantic. The spaniel 11 00:00:57,542 --> 00:01:01,342 Speaker 1: belongs to shawna Tap. She's only nine. She lives in 12 00:01:01,382 --> 00:01:03,822 Speaker 1: the ordinary, single story home with her fourteen year old 13 00:01:03,822 --> 00:01:07,342 Speaker 1: brother Justin, and their mother, Margaret, a local nurse, a 14 00:01:07,342 --> 00:01:11,102 Speaker 1: single mum and a part time law student. Pretty soon 15 00:01:11,182 --> 00:01:14,302 Speaker 1: the night is quiet again. But what is discovered the 16 00:01:14,302 --> 00:01:17,742 Speaker 1: following day in the fern Tree Gully home is so horrible. 17 00:01:18,062 --> 00:01:21,022 Speaker 1: The season detective who discovers it can't help but weep 18 00:01:21,102 --> 00:01:24,622 Speaker 1: when he goes home that evening. A crime so harrowing 19 00:01:25,022 --> 00:01:28,862 Speaker 1: it should be among Australia's most infamous, but instead, all 20 00:01:28,902 --> 00:01:33,822 Speaker 1: these years later, it's obvious this case has fallen through 21 00:01:33,862 --> 00:01:46,782 Speaker 1: the cracks. I'm Jemma Bath and this is True Crime 22 00:01:46,862 --> 00:01:51,662 Speaker 1: Conversations Amoma mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes 23 00:01:51,982 --> 00:01:55,182 Speaker 1: by speaking to the people who know the most about them. 24 00:01:55,382 --> 00:01:58,662 Speaker 1: A warning. What happened to Shauna and Margaret tap on 25 00:01:58,702 --> 00:02:02,142 Speaker 1: a Tuesday night in August four decades ago is hard 26 00:02:02,142 --> 00:02:05,862 Speaker 1: to hear a crime so harrowing it should be one 27 00:02:05,902 --> 00:02:10,262 Speaker 1: that's etched into our bones. The killer surely strangled Margaret first. 28 00:02:10,942 --> 00:02:13,542 Speaker 1: It's inconceivable she would not have fought to save her 29 00:02:13,582 --> 00:02:17,142 Speaker 1: little girl. Shauna died the same way, except she was 30 00:02:17,222 --> 00:02:20,822 Speaker 1: raped first. Both the mother and daughter were found still 31 00:02:20,822 --> 00:02:24,142 Speaker 1: in their nightgowns in their beds. Their names Arena's familiar 32 00:02:24,222 --> 00:02:26,662 Speaker 1: as some of the most famous crimes of our generation, 33 00:02:27,542 --> 00:02:30,462 Speaker 1: and yet this happened in a regular Aussie home, to 34 00:02:30,542 --> 00:02:33,982 Speaker 1: a loving family at the foothills of the Dandenong Rangers. 35 00:02:34,702 --> 00:02:37,782 Speaker 1: To help us understand the crime, the coverage, and the 36 00:02:37,782 --> 00:02:42,182 Speaker 1: police investigation that went cold, we're joined by journalist, podcaster 37 00:02:42,262 --> 00:02:45,902 Speaker 1: and author of Life and Crimes Andrew Ruhl, who covered 38 00:02:45,902 --> 00:02:48,062 Speaker 1: the story when it first broke in the nineteen eighties. 39 00:02:48,982 --> 00:02:52,462 Speaker 1: In more recent stories covering the case, Andrew is adamant 40 00:02:52,862 --> 00:02:58,302 Speaker 1: reporters and police sometimes get it wrong, including him. Andrew 41 00:02:58,382 --> 00:03:09,502 Speaker 1: joins us. Now, Andrew, I want to start with, do 42 00:03:09,542 --> 00:03:12,982 Speaker 1: you remember the night or the day that the Margaret 43 00:03:12,982 --> 00:03:14,502 Speaker 1: and shawna Tap murders came through. 44 00:03:14,742 --> 00:03:19,422 Speaker 2: This is the interesting thing. It was a relatively minor 45 00:03:20,342 --> 00:03:22,222 Speaker 2: I wasn't a minor murder. It was a double murder 46 00:03:22,262 --> 00:03:24,862 Speaker 2: of a mother and daughter. But it didn't achieve the 47 00:03:24,982 --> 00:03:30,062 Speaker 2: splash that it might have had circumstances been slightly different. 48 00:03:30,342 --> 00:03:32,982 Speaker 2: Looking back on it, I was amazed years later to 49 00:03:32,982 --> 00:03:35,782 Speaker 2: look back and see that it only generated something like 50 00:03:35,942 --> 00:03:39,182 Speaker 2: five news stories in newspapers. Five only do you mean. 51 00:03:39,102 --> 00:03:41,662 Speaker 1: In that initial kind of breaking news stay. 52 00:03:41,542 --> 00:03:44,542 Speaker 2: In that first year or whatever, you know when it happened, right, Yeah, 53 00:03:44,582 --> 00:03:48,302 Speaker 2: it wasn't massive news for days and weeks because there 54 00:03:48,302 --> 00:03:52,062 Speaker 2: were no developments. And also in those cases, usually the 55 00:03:52,102 --> 00:03:55,222 Speaker 2: police will wheel out the grieving relatives who make appeals 56 00:03:55,302 --> 00:03:59,942 Speaker 2: and there's you know, heartbroken people pictures. The family of 57 00:04:00,222 --> 00:04:04,102 Speaker 2: Margaret Tap, for better or worse, were obviously greed stricken, heartbroken. 58 00:04:04,222 --> 00:04:08,102 Speaker 2: They are also shocked, and they are also religious people, 59 00:04:08,382 --> 00:04:12,622 Speaker 2: very respectable, and they were sort of scandalized. Apart from 60 00:04:12,702 --> 00:04:15,062 Speaker 2: all the rest of the stuff, they were scandalized about 61 00:04:15,062 --> 00:04:17,942 Speaker 2: her lifestyle, which she'd had a lot of different blogs 62 00:04:17,982 --> 00:04:20,182 Speaker 2: to visit her and so on, and so they didn't 63 00:04:20,182 --> 00:04:22,502 Speaker 2: really want to drag it all through the media, and 64 00:04:22,542 --> 00:04:26,102 Speaker 2: so they did no media and it died to death. 65 00:04:26,342 --> 00:04:29,062 Speaker 2: And that story, I'm ashamed to say that the media 66 00:04:29,142 --> 00:04:32,702 Speaker 2: of which I was a part really didn't get teeth 67 00:04:32,702 --> 00:04:35,262 Speaker 2: into it for years. And the biggest story ever written 68 00:04:35,382 --> 00:04:39,182 Speaker 2: was on the twentieth anniversary of the murders. I went 69 00:04:39,262 --> 00:04:41,302 Speaker 2: back to it and said, I'm going to do this 70 00:04:41,342 --> 00:04:43,782 Speaker 2: properly now, and I did it twenty years later. 71 00:04:44,222 --> 00:04:46,422 Speaker 1: For those that haven't heard the story, because as you've said, 72 00:04:46,422 --> 00:04:49,302 Speaker 1: it's not a really well known case, let's talk about 73 00:04:49,302 --> 00:04:52,902 Speaker 1: some of the details. Firstly, Fern Tree Gully, I mean, 74 00:04:53,022 --> 00:04:55,302 Speaker 1: I've never heard of it. What's that area of Melbourne, like. 75 00:04:55,382 --> 00:04:59,102 Speaker 2: Outer of eastern suburbs, probably now a bit like then 76 00:04:59,662 --> 00:05:02,982 Speaker 2: working class and up a fair way out out of east. 77 00:05:03,062 --> 00:05:04,662 Speaker 2: This is towards the dandiong Rangers. 78 00:05:04,742 --> 00:05:06,062 Speaker 1: Family suburbia kind of. 79 00:05:06,262 --> 00:05:09,342 Speaker 2: Oh, definitely family out of suburbia. You know, it's well out. 80 00:05:09,422 --> 00:05:12,822 Speaker 2: It's thirty odd case from the central city. They were 81 00:05:12,862 --> 00:05:15,982 Speaker 2: in Calvin Drive, which is just off Ferntree Gully Road, 82 00:05:16,022 --> 00:05:18,902 Speaker 2: a major busy road, and you could hear that traffic 83 00:05:19,062 --> 00:05:21,102 Speaker 2: from their house. Their house is number thirteen, so it 84 00:05:21,102 --> 00:05:24,862 Speaker 2: was only six houses off the big road. It was 85 00:05:24,902 --> 00:05:29,222 Speaker 2: a rented house which she'd taken possession of through an 86 00:05:29,262 --> 00:05:31,262 Speaker 2: affair she had with the doctor who bought it for her, 87 00:05:31,622 --> 00:05:35,222 Speaker 2: which is relevant because his widow, the doctor's widow, was 88 00:05:35,262 --> 00:05:38,342 Speaker 2: one of the suspects for the murder wrongly in my view, 89 00:05:38,742 --> 00:05:42,022 Speaker 2: a ridiculous suspect, but the police were pretty keen on 90 00:05:42,062 --> 00:05:44,422 Speaker 2: her for a while and thought she'd had Margaret knocked 91 00:05:44,422 --> 00:05:48,542 Speaker 2: off by a murdering pedophile, which would strike me as 92 00:05:48,542 --> 00:05:51,862 Speaker 2: a fairly long shot that a doctor's widow would employ 93 00:05:52,222 --> 00:05:55,542 Speaker 2: a hipman who was also an active pedophile who was 94 00:05:55,582 --> 00:05:58,502 Speaker 2: sexually assault the child. Shawna Well kind of. 95 00:05:58,502 --> 00:06:00,502 Speaker 1: Gives you an idea of what the police were working with, 96 00:06:00,582 --> 00:06:01,502 Speaker 1: which is not a lot. 97 00:06:01,822 --> 00:06:04,582 Speaker 2: Not a lot, and the police don't always get it right. 98 00:06:04,662 --> 00:06:08,382 Speaker 2: In the eighties in Melbourne homicide Squad had patchy results, 99 00:06:09,182 --> 00:06:12,222 Speaker 2: and in the seventies with several murders that didn't get 100 00:06:12,222 --> 00:06:16,382 Speaker 2: investigated properly in my view, for various reasons. One is 101 00:06:16,422 --> 00:06:19,582 Speaker 2: they were busy doing other things, and of course in 102 00:06:19,622 --> 00:06:21,582 Speaker 2: those days they didn't have all the things that we 103 00:06:21,622 --> 00:06:24,622 Speaker 2: have now to find people. These days, you go out 104 00:06:24,662 --> 00:06:27,822 Speaker 2: and say, where's the cameras on them highway, where's the 105 00:06:27,862 --> 00:06:31,062 Speaker 2: cameras at the seven to eleven, where's the cameras next door? 106 00:06:31,622 --> 00:06:35,302 Speaker 2: Where's the credit card stuff? And all that registration plate recognition. 107 00:06:35,622 --> 00:06:38,062 Speaker 2: None of that existed. So if somebody got away with 108 00:06:38,182 --> 00:06:41,462 Speaker 2: murder in nine to eighty four or before, if they 109 00:06:41,542 --> 00:06:43,502 Speaker 2: shut up about it, they had a big chance of 110 00:06:43,542 --> 00:06:44,742 Speaker 2: getting away with it for good. 111 00:06:45,302 --> 00:06:49,542 Speaker 1: From your recollection, what happened to Margaret and shaunatap late 112 00:06:49,702 --> 00:06:50,022 Speaker 1: on the. 113 00:06:50,022 --> 00:06:53,982 Speaker 2: Night of August seventh, So the Los Angeles Olympics are 114 00:06:54,022 --> 00:06:58,462 Speaker 2: on at this stage, someone a male person obviously, has 115 00:06:58,702 --> 00:07:02,422 Speaker 2: entered the house without forcing anything. This would suggest there 116 00:07:02,542 --> 00:07:05,742 Speaker 2: was somebody that might have had some knowledge of the place, 117 00:07:06,222 --> 00:07:09,382 Speaker 2: or that they knew possibly, but those who knew them 118 00:07:09,382 --> 00:07:11,982 Speaker 2: well knew that the back door didn't lock properly. It 119 00:07:12,022 --> 00:07:14,102 Speaker 2: was faulty, and you could walk in the back door 120 00:07:14,182 --> 00:07:16,902 Speaker 2: quite easily, and that would have been known to a 121 00:07:16,942 --> 00:07:22,382 Speaker 2: few people. Next day, the little girl next door usually 122 00:07:22,462 --> 00:07:25,262 Speaker 2: walked to school with Shauna, and Shawna was nine years old. 123 00:07:25,782 --> 00:07:29,062 Speaker 2: She looked up no sign, as Shauna, the blinds are 124 00:07:29,062 --> 00:07:32,062 Speaker 2: still drawn, the newspaper is still on the porch. The 125 00:07:32,102 --> 00:07:36,262 Speaker 2: newspapers delivered, it hadn't been picked up, and she wondered, 126 00:07:36,342 --> 00:07:39,742 Speaker 2: what's happening. So she walked to school by herself. Later 127 00:07:39,822 --> 00:07:44,662 Speaker 2: that afternoon, a man who knew Margaret, a nice fellow carpenter, 128 00:07:44,902 --> 00:07:47,702 Speaker 2: armless guy. He came around to see her to see 129 00:07:47,702 --> 00:07:50,502 Speaker 2: if she wanted to go to the opera with him, 130 00:07:51,022 --> 00:07:55,702 Speaker 2: and knock, knock, knock, no sign. Her brother in law 131 00:07:55,822 --> 00:07:58,342 Speaker 2: is another one who turned up and saw the paper, 132 00:07:58,422 --> 00:08:02,502 Speaker 2: saw the lockdoor, no sign. One of those two guys, Jim, 133 00:08:02,542 --> 00:08:05,102 Speaker 2: the carpenter, the friend of the opera guy. He goes 134 00:08:05,142 --> 00:08:08,462 Speaker 2: in the back door and finds the crime scene. He 135 00:08:08,502 --> 00:08:12,502 Speaker 2: finds both of them in beds with the covers pulled 136 00:08:12,582 --> 00:08:15,902 Speaker 2: up to their necks as if it's done by somebody 137 00:08:16,102 --> 00:08:18,862 Speaker 2: covering up the crime, the psychology of it, and both 138 00:08:18,862 --> 00:08:22,502 Speaker 2: of them had been strangled with something. In the case 139 00:08:22,542 --> 00:08:24,902 Speaker 2: of Shawna, the nine year old girl, there was seamen 140 00:08:24,942 --> 00:08:27,662 Speaker 2: found on her night dress, which would suggest a sort 141 00:08:27,702 --> 00:08:31,782 Speaker 2: of a sexual motive. So this wasn't a burglary gone wrong. 142 00:08:32,662 --> 00:08:36,182 Speaker 2: This wasn't a hit on Margaret performed by a hitman. 143 00:08:36,702 --> 00:08:40,102 Speaker 2: This was a weird sexual murder. Perhaps somebody has known 144 00:08:40,142 --> 00:08:42,702 Speaker 2: to them that had done something bad with Shauna, and 145 00:08:42,742 --> 00:08:45,862 Speaker 2: then Margaret realized or yelled, or you know, the little 146 00:08:45,862 --> 00:08:49,542 Speaker 2: girl yelled, and maybe then the perpetrator killed both the 147 00:08:49,582 --> 00:08:51,742 Speaker 2: cover up. This is what it looks like to me. 148 00:08:52,102 --> 00:08:53,982 Speaker 1: I know you've spoken to one of the detectives that 149 00:08:54,422 --> 00:08:57,822 Speaker 1: found that scene and he was pretty shaken up by it, 150 00:08:57,862 --> 00:08:58,222 Speaker 1: wasn't he. 151 00:08:58,862 --> 00:09:02,142 Speaker 2: I mean, there's detectives, many of them are married with kids. 152 00:09:02,382 --> 00:09:04,582 Speaker 2: It does shake them up when they see dead kids. 153 00:09:04,582 --> 00:09:07,542 Speaker 2: That really wears them. The problem with this whole case, 154 00:09:07,582 --> 00:09:09,942 Speaker 2: and there's no use sugar coating it, is that from 155 00:09:09,942 --> 00:09:13,142 Speaker 2: the start the police wasn't a case of not having suspects. 156 00:09:13,142 --> 00:09:16,142 Speaker 2: They had too many, and all about equal height. So okay, 157 00:09:16,262 --> 00:09:19,102 Speaker 2: let's look at Margaret. Who's she know, her ex husband 158 00:09:19,262 --> 00:09:22,062 Speaker 2: that she divorced five years earlier. Get him in. He'll 159 00:09:22,062 --> 00:09:25,622 Speaker 2: be good. Well he's not, he's harmless, alibi, not a problem. 160 00:09:25,862 --> 00:09:28,742 Speaker 2: Then the Margaret's sister's boyfriend, he was sort of brother 161 00:09:28,742 --> 00:09:31,582 Speaker 2: in law. He'd come around there. They'd have to clear him. 162 00:09:32,062 --> 00:09:34,862 Speaker 2: Then the alleg's boyfriend, the guy that came around to 163 00:09:34,862 --> 00:09:37,622 Speaker 2: take her to the opera, But he was a harmless 164 00:09:37,622 --> 00:09:40,822 Speaker 2: guy and nice guy. These three they clear rapidly. Then 165 00:09:40,862 --> 00:09:44,942 Speaker 2: there's Margaret's brother, who's a strange cat. Lindsey. I talked 166 00:09:44,942 --> 00:09:48,022 Speaker 2: to him quite a lot, and he worked at the 167 00:09:48,102 --> 00:09:50,982 Speaker 2: local council with a lot of rough guys, truck drivers 168 00:09:50,982 --> 00:09:53,422 Speaker 2: and sort of rough blugs. Some of them might had 169 00:09:53,422 --> 00:09:56,622 Speaker 2: a bit of form for crimes. One of them drove 170 00:09:56,662 --> 00:10:00,782 Speaker 2: a really hot Falcon newt red with mags. Such a 171 00:10:00,862 --> 00:10:03,542 Speaker 2: vehicle was seen in that street at some point that week. 172 00:10:04,382 --> 00:10:06,702 Speaker 2: Some of those guys had helped move furniture into the 173 00:10:06,742 --> 00:10:10,702 Speaker 2: house as a favor to the brother, so you had that. 174 00:10:11,062 --> 00:10:13,902 Speaker 2: Then Margaret, she was a nurse at a local hospital 175 00:10:13,942 --> 00:10:17,062 Speaker 2: in the Hills. She was very friendly with a lot 176 00:10:17,102 --> 00:10:19,782 Speaker 2: of different doctors. She'd had affairs with seven of them, 177 00:10:19,822 --> 00:10:21,662 Speaker 2: including a leading an ethetist. 178 00:10:22,422 --> 00:10:25,222 Speaker 1: There were all of those, so seven more suspects. 179 00:10:25,342 --> 00:10:27,622 Speaker 2: Well potentially. And then she was a nurse, but she 180 00:10:27,702 --> 00:10:30,862 Speaker 2: was doing law at Monash University because she wanted to 181 00:10:30,902 --> 00:10:34,102 Speaker 2: become a medico legal. She was bright, she was smart. 182 00:10:34,182 --> 00:10:38,822 Speaker 2: She clearly had an enormously warm and engaging personality because 183 00:10:39,422 --> 00:10:41,582 Speaker 2: men just fell for her one after the other. She 184 00:10:41,702 --> 00:10:46,902 Speaker 2: was clearly an intriguing person with a force field of charisma. 185 00:10:47,422 --> 00:10:49,702 Speaker 2: You know, she'd met a guy at UNI that used 186 00:10:49,702 --> 00:10:51,542 Speaker 2: to come over and see her. And then she was 187 00:10:51,542 --> 00:10:55,182 Speaker 2: having truck driving lessons from a bloke who had a truck, 188 00:10:55,302 --> 00:10:58,342 Speaker 2: who was giving a lessons driving the truck. And so 189 00:10:58,582 --> 00:11:02,222 Speaker 2: there's you know, ten eleven, twelve suspects right there, let 190 00:11:02,222 --> 00:11:05,742 Speaker 2: alone anyone those guys knew what about that guy's friend, 191 00:11:05,822 --> 00:11:09,022 Speaker 2: what about that guy's brother. And in the end it 192 00:11:09,102 --> 00:11:11,862 Speaker 2: sort of collapsed under the way to all these potential 193 00:11:11,902 --> 00:11:16,022 Speaker 2: suspects that I don't believe were cleared properly back then 194 00:11:16,862 --> 00:11:21,862 Speaker 2: and only half heartedly cleared later because Margaret's brother, Lindsay, 195 00:11:22,022 --> 00:11:25,502 Speaker 2: assured me that he hadn't been cleared by DNA samples 196 00:11:25,622 --> 00:11:28,982 Speaker 2: until twenty years later, a big gap he himself. Now 197 00:11:29,022 --> 00:11:31,262 Speaker 2: he had to be regarded as a suspect. 198 00:11:30,942 --> 00:11:33,142 Speaker 1: Because they had DNA from the scene, They had DNA 199 00:11:33,182 --> 00:11:35,182 Speaker 1: from this, they had semen, they had fingerprints. 200 00:11:35,302 --> 00:11:38,182 Speaker 2: They did not have finger or footprints. They had a footprint. 201 00:11:38,462 --> 00:11:41,342 Speaker 2: The one clue no one's ever been able to explain 202 00:11:41,382 --> 00:11:45,702 Speaker 2: it who it is, if it's innocent, was the footprint 203 00:11:45,742 --> 00:11:48,182 Speaker 2: of a Volley sanchu. Now you may not remember them, 204 00:11:48,222 --> 00:11:50,742 Speaker 2: but when I was young, everybody had Volly sancho's that 205 00:11:50,782 --> 00:11:51,662 Speaker 2: are Rippley sold. 206 00:11:51,702 --> 00:11:53,822 Speaker 1: Now they're back again, they're back, pleased to know. 207 00:11:54,062 --> 00:11:56,462 Speaker 2: And you know everyone more than then. They wore them 208 00:11:56,742 --> 00:11:59,782 Speaker 2: with jeans. And it was a thing, and it was 209 00:11:59,822 --> 00:12:02,622 Speaker 2: a certain size, and it had left a mark on 210 00:12:02,662 --> 00:12:06,542 Speaker 2: a clean floor because it had been recently used on it. 211 00:12:06,622 --> 00:12:09,022 Speaker 2: Probably they think on an onto car tennis court, you know, 212 00:12:09,102 --> 00:12:12,102 Speaker 2: the red dust tennis courts. And I were never able 213 00:12:12,102 --> 00:12:14,542 Speaker 2: to work out whose it was, and it would strike 214 00:12:14,822 --> 00:12:18,062 Speaker 2: you as a very intriguing clue. I have to say. 215 00:12:18,502 --> 00:12:20,942 Speaker 2: Among the other clues we haven't been through. Down the 216 00:12:21,062 --> 00:12:23,782 Speaker 2: road was a kid that all the neighbors said, this 217 00:12:23,902 --> 00:12:26,262 Speaker 2: kid's win, he's a teenager, right them down on his 218 00:12:26,342 --> 00:12:29,662 Speaker 2: bike and make filthy comments to women working in the garden. 219 00:12:30,222 --> 00:12:32,862 Speaker 2: I went and found this guy as an adult, very 220 00:12:32,862 --> 00:12:35,742 Speaker 2: strange cat, but he knew exactly where the grave was. 221 00:12:35,782 --> 00:12:38,262 Speaker 2: Explained to me how to go to their graves to Margaret, 222 00:12:38,262 --> 00:12:41,022 Speaker 2: and he said, yeah, you're going there, and then you 223 00:12:41,102 --> 00:12:43,222 Speaker 2: walk about fifty minutes in your turn left at a 224 00:12:43,262 --> 00:12:45,942 Speaker 2: black grave and it's a shiny one. He knew it precisely. 225 00:12:46,942 --> 00:12:49,142 Speaker 2: Just down the road, I think next to his house 226 00:12:49,262 --> 00:12:51,742 Speaker 2: was a house full of pretty rough people. One of 227 00:12:51,742 --> 00:12:55,702 Speaker 2: them had some form for badness and madness. His sister 228 00:12:55,782 --> 00:12:57,902 Speaker 2: lived at a caravan out the back of the house. 229 00:12:58,142 --> 00:13:00,782 Speaker 2: That guy did jail for rape on a separate case. 230 00:13:01,142 --> 00:13:04,182 Speaker 2: So our pool of potential suspects is what thirteen and 231 00:13:04,182 --> 00:13:05,502 Speaker 2: fourteen and fifteen, But. 232 00:13:05,422 --> 00:13:07,502 Speaker 1: That shouldn't matter, doesn't a police investigation. 233 00:13:07,742 --> 00:13:10,142 Speaker 2: It's interrogated that I found those guys. I found those 234 00:13:10,142 --> 00:13:13,302 Speaker 2: brothers from that house. They were all rough heads. Obviously 235 00:13:13,302 --> 00:13:15,742 Speaker 2: they can't all be guilty or none of them are guilty, right, 236 00:13:15,982 --> 00:13:17,582 Speaker 2: And I spoke to them. They said, yeah, the couples 237 00:13:17,582 --> 00:13:19,542 Speaker 2: should have come and say ah's he said, I was 238 00:13:19,582 --> 00:13:22,302 Speaker 2: working night shift. I was a perfect candidate. Why didn't 239 00:13:22,342 --> 00:13:24,622 Speaker 2: they come and talk to me and clear mate? Why 240 00:13:24,662 --> 00:13:27,462 Speaker 2: didn't they clear my brother? Yeah? They reckoned. The police 241 00:13:27,542 --> 00:13:32,102 Speaker 2: just didn't do their job properly, so it fell through cracks. 242 00:13:33,062 --> 00:13:37,142 Speaker 2: Another potential thing is, you know, Shauna was a Brownie, 243 00:13:37,182 --> 00:13:40,102 Speaker 2: the junior girl gods. We now know looking back on it, 244 00:13:40,142 --> 00:13:44,862 Speaker 2: that girl gods, brownies, cubs, scouts were full of pedophiles, which, 245 00:13:45,142 --> 00:13:47,462 Speaker 2: looking back, with the wisdom and mindsight, you think that 246 00:13:47,502 --> 00:13:51,422 Speaker 2: would have to be an interesting connection. Having gone through 247 00:13:51,462 --> 00:13:53,262 Speaker 2: all these things, I wrote a big story about it 248 00:13:53,342 --> 00:13:57,182 Speaker 2: twenty years later and since then. Some years ago now 249 00:13:57,422 --> 00:14:01,102 Speaker 2: I was approached by a young man said he was 250 00:14:01,142 --> 00:14:04,822 Speaker 2: a friend of the estranged children of a local doctor 251 00:14:04,862 --> 00:14:07,622 Speaker 2: from up there. This doctor was a GP who lived 252 00:14:07,622 --> 00:14:10,422 Speaker 2: in the dandinongs, so Danny Loong Rangers. I've got pleased 253 00:14:10,982 --> 00:14:15,382 Speaker 2: hills with trees and birds and flowers and pedophile doctors. 254 00:14:15,622 --> 00:14:18,902 Speaker 2: This doctor was popular, He was well known. He was 255 00:14:18,982 --> 00:14:22,022 Speaker 2: well liked by some people, not by others. He had 256 00:14:22,022 --> 00:14:23,942 Speaker 2: three kids of his own. Turned out he was a 257 00:14:24,182 --> 00:14:28,222 Speaker 2: sexual deviate of the darkest dye. Turns out that he 258 00:14:28,662 --> 00:14:33,702 Speaker 2: molested a lot of kids, including his own, and including patients. 259 00:14:33,982 --> 00:14:37,702 Speaker 2: So this is an interesting figure because he was very 260 00:14:37,702 --> 00:14:41,022 Speaker 2: well known up there as a GP. He would go 261 00:14:41,142 --> 00:14:44,622 Speaker 2: regularly to that hospital where Margaret worked. He wasn't one 262 00:14:44,662 --> 00:14:46,622 Speaker 2: of the hospital doctors, but he would go there to 263 00:14:46,662 --> 00:14:49,222 Speaker 2: treat you know, somebody's granny or whatever it might be. 264 00:14:49,342 --> 00:14:51,302 Speaker 1: So it's another potential call totally. 265 00:14:51,342 --> 00:14:53,822 Speaker 2: And he was a sexual predator, and he was a 266 00:14:53,862 --> 00:14:57,782 Speaker 2: good looking athletic tennis playing fellaw. 267 00:14:57,662 --> 00:14:59,942 Speaker 1: Right, and he's never been investigated for this crime. 268 00:15:00,142 --> 00:15:02,742 Speaker 2: Well, that's a good question. When I was told about 269 00:15:02,782 --> 00:15:05,342 Speaker 2: this fellow only a few years ago. Now they nailed 270 00:15:05,422 --> 00:15:09,342 Speaker 2: one pedophile incident to him, obviously it'll be one of many. 271 00:15:09,462 --> 00:15:12,662 Speaker 2: But and he got struck off as a doctor. His 272 00:15:12,742 --> 00:15:16,182 Speaker 2: wife left him, his kids hated him, and he moved 273 00:15:16,262 --> 00:15:19,022 Speaker 2: up to a riverside town on the Murray River where 274 00:15:19,022 --> 00:15:20,902 Speaker 2: a lot of people go to retire and play golf. 275 00:15:21,062 --> 00:15:23,542 Speaker 2: That's where he's gone. And not long ago, a couple 276 00:15:23,542 --> 00:15:25,142 Speaker 2: of years ago, I went up there and sat off 277 00:15:25,142 --> 00:15:28,662 Speaker 2: his house and watching Walky's little dog down the street. 278 00:15:28,662 --> 00:15:31,902 Speaker 2: And everybody locally knows who he is in the background, 279 00:15:32,062 --> 00:15:34,702 Speaker 2: and they all watch him, all the parents. If he 280 00:15:34,862 --> 00:15:36,862 Speaker 2: ever steps out of line, he'll end up in the Murray. 281 00:15:37,942 --> 00:15:42,822 Speaker 2: That guy is intriguing because he played tennis with a 282 00:15:42,902 --> 00:15:45,502 Speaker 2: group of other men, one of whom I know. One 283 00:15:45,502 --> 00:15:47,382 Speaker 2: of them was the father of a girl that was 284 00:15:47,422 --> 00:15:50,302 Speaker 2: molested by this doctor, and he used to play at 285 00:15:50,582 --> 00:15:53,542 Speaker 2: a little tennis caught up there Fernie Creek and it 286 00:15:53,662 --> 00:15:56,822 Speaker 2: had an onto car court, you know, the red dust stuff. 287 00:15:57,502 --> 00:16:00,542 Speaker 2: I'm told that his feet were about the right size 288 00:16:01,142 --> 00:16:05,502 Speaker 2: for the shoes. Now, whether that's just a lot of coincidences, 289 00:16:06,102 --> 00:16:08,902 Speaker 2: I don't know. It may well be, but he's a 290 00:16:08,982 --> 00:16:13,582 Speaker 2: doctor that should easily have known Margaret. He played tennis 291 00:16:13,582 --> 00:16:17,142 Speaker 2: e will volley sanshoes. He was a sexual predator. He 292 00:16:17,262 --> 00:16:19,102 Speaker 2: was a sexual predator with a lot to lose and 293 00:16:19,182 --> 00:16:21,822 Speaker 2: later lost it. He was a big, strong, sort of 294 00:16:21,902 --> 00:16:27,142 Speaker 2: athletic guy, be quite capable of strangling mother and daughter there. 295 00:16:27,142 --> 00:16:30,382 Speaker 2: He is living in a country town in New South 296 00:16:30,422 --> 00:16:32,702 Speaker 2: Wales on the just on that side of the river. 297 00:16:37,342 --> 00:16:40,942 Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime conversations with me, Jimmy Bath. 298 00:16:41,662 --> 00:16:44,862 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Andrew Ruhle about the murder of Shawna 299 00:16:44,942 --> 00:16:48,822 Speaker 1: and Margaret. Tap up next, we discover why this unsolved 300 00:16:48,822 --> 00:16:57,902 Speaker 1: case didn't get the coverage it deserved. It's interesting because 301 00:16:58,022 --> 00:17:00,582 Speaker 1: hearing that obviously there's a lot of alarm bells there, 302 00:17:00,582 --> 00:17:03,462 Speaker 1: but then there's another really credible suspect that you write 303 00:17:03,462 --> 00:17:06,182 Speaker 1: about a lot, which was Margaret's dad's friend, the ex 304 00:17:06,222 --> 00:17:07,942 Speaker 1: policeman who we haven't even. 305 00:17:08,182 --> 00:17:11,302 Speaker 2: I haven't because there's number what don't we can talk 306 00:17:11,342 --> 00:17:13,822 Speaker 2: about him? He died. I went knocked on his door 307 00:17:14,502 --> 00:17:17,022 Speaker 2: twenty years ago to find he was on a cruise somewhere. 308 00:17:17,262 --> 00:17:19,502 Speaker 2: He was an amateur door but he used to paint. 309 00:17:19,862 --> 00:17:24,422 Speaker 2: He painted a picture after Margaret and Shawna were murdered 310 00:17:25,142 --> 00:17:30,342 Speaker 2: of Shauna beside a campfire, and it ended up with 311 00:17:30,742 --> 00:17:34,662 Speaker 2: uncle Lindsey, with Shauna's uncle. He sent me a photograph 312 00:17:34,702 --> 00:17:37,702 Speaker 2: of it, and I was very intrigued by they saying 313 00:17:37,742 --> 00:17:40,982 Speaker 2: Cook he was a bit of a predatory guy. That 314 00:17:41,062 --> 00:17:43,662 Speaker 2: doesn't make him a killer and a pedophile. I have 315 00:17:43,742 --> 00:17:46,742 Speaker 2: to say he was an old copper that he'd known 316 00:17:46,822 --> 00:17:50,222 Speaker 2: the family for years. They were sort of friends. I 317 00:17:50,302 --> 00:17:53,102 Speaker 2: reckon he was in the Masonic lodge with Margaret's father. 318 00:17:53,422 --> 00:17:55,662 Speaker 2: I reckon there's a bit of a bond there, which 319 00:17:55,742 --> 00:17:57,862 Speaker 2: might be one of the reasons the case didn't get 320 00:17:57,902 --> 00:18:00,982 Speaker 2: publicized much. The police force in those days. There are 321 00:18:01,022 --> 00:18:03,382 Speaker 2: a lot of that Masons versus Catholics very big in 322 00:18:03,382 --> 00:18:07,622 Speaker 2: the police force until recent times, and those sort of 323 00:18:07,662 --> 00:18:09,702 Speaker 2: things would apply that if they said, oh, he's a 324 00:18:09,742 --> 00:18:12,702 Speaker 2: brother and he does on this publicized it's embarrassing. That 325 00:18:12,782 --> 00:18:16,862 Speaker 2: might well happen. So that fellow Anne Cook. He'd known 326 00:18:16,902 --> 00:18:19,022 Speaker 2: Margaret when she was a young runaway. She'd run away 327 00:18:19,022 --> 00:18:21,702 Speaker 2: from home at sixteen, and he'd gone to Saint Kildraa 328 00:18:21,782 --> 00:18:23,742 Speaker 2: somewhere and picked her up and brought her home. But 329 00:18:23,862 --> 00:18:26,742 Speaker 2: he used to visit and she used to complain to 330 00:18:26,782 --> 00:18:30,142 Speaker 2: her sister, so that bloody and Cook's coming around here. 331 00:18:30,262 --> 00:18:32,822 Speaker 2: Da da da da da. And he was allowed back 332 00:18:32,862 --> 00:18:36,182 Speaker 2: into the crime scene. He said to retrieve a book 333 00:18:36,502 --> 00:18:39,902 Speaker 2: or books or letters or something, and the coppers let 334 00:18:39,982 --> 00:18:42,702 Speaker 2: him in because he was either still a serving copper 335 00:18:42,782 --> 00:18:45,622 Speaker 2: or just out of the job. Now that puts him 336 00:18:45,662 --> 00:18:47,342 Speaker 2: at the crime scene. That means he can get his 337 00:18:47,382 --> 00:18:51,702 Speaker 2: fingerprints there legitimately, which covers him if his prince are 338 00:18:51,702 --> 00:18:55,502 Speaker 2: found back. I think so, But very hard to get 339 00:18:55,582 --> 00:18:57,942 Speaker 2: the sense out of the police later, because I think 340 00:18:57,982 --> 00:19:00,662 Speaker 2: there were a lot of gaps. They had different waves 341 00:19:00,742 --> 00:19:04,462 Speaker 2: of DNA test over twenty years, and they didn't clear 342 00:19:04,502 --> 00:19:08,342 Speaker 2: everybody in the first instance. When DNA came in, they 343 00:19:08,422 --> 00:19:10,262 Speaker 2: cleared you know, a short listen, and they cleared a 344 00:19:10,262 --> 00:19:12,182 Speaker 2: few more, and then a few more. And if if 345 00:19:12,182 --> 00:19:14,182 Speaker 2: these guys were too far away or too hard to find, 346 00:19:14,302 --> 00:19:16,622 Speaker 2: I think they slipped through the net for a long time. 347 00:19:16,902 --> 00:19:18,862 Speaker 1: Would you give people a little bit of an idea 348 00:19:18,902 --> 00:19:22,582 Speaker 1: of the developments that did happen. They did actually charge 349 00:19:22,582 --> 00:19:24,982 Speaker 1: someone with the murders in two thousand and eight. Tell 350 00:19:25,062 --> 00:19:25,542 Speaker 1: us about that. 351 00:19:25,822 --> 00:19:27,422 Speaker 2: Well, there's front page news. 352 00:19:28,342 --> 00:19:29,102 Speaker 1: Finally makes sense. 353 00:19:29,102 --> 00:19:32,262 Speaker 2: It was leaked by a friendly homicide squad detective to 354 00:19:32,382 --> 00:19:35,982 Speaker 2: a colleague of mine. You know, big breakthrough. We've got him. 355 00:19:35,982 --> 00:19:38,902 Speaker 2: He's a boats in jail at Sale, which is a 356 00:19:39,102 --> 00:19:42,942 Speaker 2: regional city in Victoria. We've had a match with DNA. 357 00:19:43,062 --> 00:19:47,102 Speaker 2: It's him and front page news. Great crime solved. And 358 00:19:47,102 --> 00:19:50,462 Speaker 2: then there's a photograph of Margaret's poor ole father holding 359 00:19:50,502 --> 00:19:54,382 Speaker 2: a photograph of Margaret and a little girl and wrong. 360 00:19:55,102 --> 00:19:58,142 Speaker 2: Within days, turns out that he's been a balls up 361 00:19:58,182 --> 00:20:01,902 Speaker 2: in the laboratory. They'd spatted DNA around the room and 362 00:20:01,942 --> 00:20:05,582 Speaker 2: had fallen on the microscope and it wasn't him at all. 363 00:20:05,902 --> 00:20:08,462 Speaker 2: He gave no comment interview, which made the place pretty 364 00:20:08,502 --> 00:20:10,662 Speaker 2: keen on him. But when his lawyer pointed out that 365 00:20:10,822 --> 00:20:15,422 Speaker 2: his client was in Darwin at the time, provably or somewhere, 366 00:20:15,662 --> 00:20:17,342 Speaker 2: it all fell apart and they realized it was a 367 00:20:17,422 --> 00:20:19,582 Speaker 2: screw up at the lab not the only screw up. 368 00:20:19,622 --> 00:20:22,342 Speaker 2: They've had the lab either, it has happened before. 369 00:20:22,662 --> 00:20:26,382 Speaker 1: It just feels like with this police investigation, there was holes, 370 00:20:26,462 --> 00:20:28,542 Speaker 1: but then there was these big bungles that happened. 371 00:20:28,662 --> 00:20:32,742 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, tell me a better. Homicide squads are interesting. 372 00:20:32,822 --> 00:20:35,662 Speaker 2: They're regarded as an elite squad, but they're regarded as 373 00:20:35,742 --> 00:20:39,502 Speaker 2: sort of corruption free because there'sn't a lot of opportunity. Really, 374 00:20:39,702 --> 00:20:41,982 Speaker 2: those would be good detectives doing their best, and most 375 00:20:41,982 --> 00:20:45,262 Speaker 2: of them are or were. But you have to realize 376 00:20:45,302 --> 00:20:47,862 Speaker 2: that homicide scott is mostly a case of turning up 377 00:20:47,982 --> 00:20:51,222 Speaker 2: at an address where somebody's rung in and said two 378 00:20:51,262 --> 00:20:53,822 Speaker 2: dead on the floor, and they go in and there's 379 00:20:53,942 --> 00:20:56,422 Speaker 2: you know, mumster skilled dab with a breadknife and says, 380 00:20:56,422 --> 00:20:59,302 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I couldn't take it anymore. Take me to jail. 381 00:20:59,502 --> 00:21:03,022 Speaker 2: You know, it's that easy. Most homicides, eight out of 382 00:21:03,062 --> 00:21:05,942 Speaker 2: ten of them, are like that. Their clean up rates 383 00:21:06,182 --> 00:21:09,342 Speaker 2: are artificially inflated by those walk up starts. It's not 384 00:21:09,382 --> 00:21:11,702 Speaker 2: like catching arm robbers who run away from you and 385 00:21:11,782 --> 00:21:15,862 Speaker 2: are good crooks. You're catching basically mostly people that have 386 00:21:15,942 --> 00:21:18,662 Speaker 2: been involved in a once in a lifetime domestic incident 387 00:21:18,702 --> 00:21:22,702 Speaker 2: where a murders b and then says, you got me GV. 388 00:21:22,982 --> 00:21:25,582 Speaker 1: Can we compare it, because when you look at this 389 00:21:25,702 --> 00:21:28,462 Speaker 1: story on its own, it feels kind of mind blowing, 390 00:21:28,502 --> 00:21:30,702 Speaker 1: all of the mistakes. Let's compare it to one of 391 00:21:30,742 --> 00:21:32,822 Speaker 1: the stories that you cover in your latest book, which 392 00:21:32,862 --> 00:21:36,622 Speaker 1: is the Easy Street Street which most people will know about. 393 00:21:36,822 --> 00:21:40,022 Speaker 2: Easy Street correctly has become one of the most celebrated 394 00:21:40,542 --> 00:21:44,822 Speaker 2: unsolved cases in Australia. I guess there's others that compare 395 00:21:44,942 --> 00:21:48,862 Speaker 2: in scope. It's two young women with a little child 396 00:21:48,942 --> 00:21:52,422 Speaker 2: in the house who wasn't hurt. The two suits. One 397 00:21:52,462 --> 00:21:55,182 Speaker 2: was Suzanne, one was Susan, our friends. They were living 398 00:21:55,182 --> 00:21:58,422 Speaker 2: together in a rented housing Easy Street, Collingwood in Melbourne 399 00:21:58,422 --> 00:22:02,622 Speaker 2: in a suburbs nineteen seventy seven, very hot summer. They're 400 00:22:02,622 --> 00:22:05,982 Speaker 2: found by a neighbor who'd found their dog wandering around 401 00:22:06,142 --> 00:22:08,182 Speaker 2: and went through the back gate in the back door 402 00:22:08,222 --> 00:22:12,102 Speaker 2: and walked down the hall and found a total scene 403 00:22:12,142 --> 00:22:15,062 Speaker 2: of chaos and blood everywhere. Both of them stabbed to 404 00:22:15,102 --> 00:22:17,902 Speaker 2: death multiple times. And in the middle bedroom. There were 405 00:22:17,902 --> 00:22:21,342 Speaker 2: two bedrooms and a long, thin terrace house. So one 406 00:22:21,422 --> 00:22:23,982 Speaker 2: is dead in the front room. Then there's a middle 407 00:22:24,062 --> 00:22:28,142 Speaker 2: room with a little boy dehydrated, very thirsty, very sad 408 00:22:28,222 --> 00:22:31,502 Speaker 2: eighteen month old baby Greg in his cot and then 409 00:22:31,502 --> 00:22:34,142 Speaker 2: then the other young woman is dead in the other bedroom, 410 00:22:34,782 --> 00:22:38,782 Speaker 2: stabbed in a frenzy by an unknown assailant. Similar problem. 411 00:22:39,262 --> 00:22:41,542 Speaker 2: The police when they looked into it, they said, oh god, 412 00:22:41,622 --> 00:22:44,302 Speaker 2: you know, says An Armstrong was going out with this 413 00:22:44,342 --> 00:22:47,782 Speaker 2: sheer from Euroa and his brothers knows them, and then 414 00:22:47,822 --> 00:22:51,382 Speaker 2: there's this one. They backtrack and find all these different 415 00:22:51,422 --> 00:22:55,582 Speaker 2: people that had been the parties there whatever, and in 416 00:22:55,662 --> 00:22:57,542 Speaker 2: the end the police couldn't sort of work out who 417 00:22:57,622 --> 00:22:59,582 Speaker 2: was the best candidate, and they ended up with a 418 00:22:59,702 --> 00:23:01,542 Speaker 2: least to go to and no pretty keen on a 419 00:23:01,582 --> 00:23:04,942 Speaker 2: few of them. They were keen on Susan Armstrong's boyfriend, 420 00:23:05,582 --> 00:23:09,422 Speaker 2: but ultimately they got nowhere. It was a very patchy investigation. 421 00:23:09,862 --> 00:23:12,862 Speaker 2: Another generation of police were shocked when they pulled out 422 00:23:12,862 --> 00:23:15,262 Speaker 2: the easy Street file. It was a Manila a little 423 00:23:15,302 --> 00:23:17,822 Speaker 2: Manila folder with twenty four sheets of paper in it. 424 00:23:18,102 --> 00:23:20,822 Speaker 2: I mean, school essays are longer than that, you know. 425 00:23:20,862 --> 00:23:24,782 Speaker 2: It was just rubbish and they had bugger roll. They 426 00:23:24,902 --> 00:23:28,502 Speaker 2: just didn't get anywhere. And again they had too many 427 00:23:28,742 --> 00:23:32,182 Speaker 2: potential candidates. One guy climbed through a window after the 428 00:23:32,262 --> 00:23:35,022 Speaker 2: murders gone in and left a note for them on 429 00:23:35,062 --> 00:23:37,182 Speaker 2: a cigarette packet, you know, ring me on this number. 430 00:23:37,542 --> 00:23:39,582 Speaker 2: The police track him down and said what's with you, 431 00:23:39,622 --> 00:23:41,142 Speaker 2: and he said, well, I've been there before. I knew 432 00:23:41,142 --> 00:23:43,542 Speaker 2: I had to open the window, but I didn't go 433 00:23:43,822 --> 00:23:46,462 Speaker 2: that way towards the bedrooms. And he was one of 434 00:23:46,742 --> 00:23:49,222 Speaker 2: two people that did that. The boyfriend, the sheerer guy, 435 00:23:49,382 --> 00:23:52,342 Speaker 2: had also walked in the back door and called out 436 00:23:52,462 --> 00:23:55,462 Speaker 2: no answer, so he didn't being a well mannered country boy, 437 00:23:55,582 --> 00:23:57,742 Speaker 2: he did not walk up into the house. He just 438 00:23:57,742 --> 00:24:00,422 Speaker 2: called that from the kitchen. So two different men that 439 00:24:00,542 --> 00:24:03,742 Speaker 2: are known have been in that house after the murders. 440 00:24:04,102 --> 00:24:08,342 Speaker 1: Do you think that particular case did get more attention 441 00:24:08,902 --> 00:24:10,822 Speaker 1: from police in the end because it was getting more 442 00:24:10,862 --> 00:24:13,502 Speaker 1: attention from us, from the public, from the media. 443 00:24:13,342 --> 00:24:15,982 Speaker 2: Big media story. Easy Street. There's something about the name 444 00:24:16,102 --> 00:24:19,382 Speaker 2: that just works. It's the Beaumont children an Easy Street 445 00:24:19,382 --> 00:24:22,622 Speaker 2: have always been. They just caught the imagination, they caught 446 00:24:22,662 --> 00:24:26,422 Speaker 2: the headlines, and people never forgot them. You know. The 447 00:24:26,462 --> 00:24:30,382 Speaker 2: Margaret tap case actually is just as awful in every way, 448 00:24:30,502 --> 00:24:34,862 Speaker 2: but never caught attention in the same way. And that's 449 00:24:35,142 --> 00:24:37,662 Speaker 2: why I concentrated on it years later to sort of 450 00:24:37,662 --> 00:24:38,222 Speaker 2: remedy that. 451 00:24:38,462 --> 00:24:39,542 Speaker 1: And what do you put that down to? 452 00:24:39,782 --> 00:24:41,702 Speaker 2: Well, is nowhere to go. See, the thing is about 453 00:24:41,782 --> 00:24:45,022 Speaker 2: day to day reporting. You need a development of some sort, 454 00:24:45,262 --> 00:24:47,542 Speaker 2: or you need somebody saying tomorrow we're going to have 455 00:24:48,262 --> 00:24:51,102 Speaker 2: Margaret's sister, and next day we're going to have a grandma, 456 00:24:51,222 --> 00:24:52,502 Speaker 2: and next day we're going to you know, we're going 457 00:24:52,582 --> 00:24:56,342 Speaker 2: to have something. So everything just split it out. It 458 00:24:56,382 --> 00:24:59,662 Speaker 2: was awful and I feel bad that that's what happened. 459 00:24:59,702 --> 00:25:02,782 Speaker 2: But it wasn't a media conspiracy. It wasn't a police conspiracy. 460 00:25:03,102 --> 00:25:05,622 Speaker 2: To some extent, it was the family. If the family 461 00:25:05,622 --> 00:25:08,542 Speaker 2: had been really keen to pursue it, they would have 462 00:25:08,702 --> 00:25:11,222 Speaker 2: fed the media. They weren't going to do that. 463 00:25:11,462 --> 00:25:13,342 Speaker 1: I think it also comes down to what people want 464 00:25:13,342 --> 00:25:14,702 Speaker 1: to read as well. 465 00:25:14,902 --> 00:25:17,702 Speaker 2: It does. And you know what, there's not an appetite 466 00:25:17,702 --> 00:25:21,422 Speaker 2: for child's sex stories. I have to say, they're so 467 00:25:21,582 --> 00:25:25,702 Speaker 2: awful abhorrent that nobody approaches them the way we approach 468 00:25:26,222 --> 00:25:28,862 Speaker 2: when a gangster gets shot, happy days, it's wonderful. As 469 00:25:28,902 --> 00:25:31,182 Speaker 2: long as no one innocent gets hurt, we're all happy. 470 00:25:31,582 --> 00:25:33,702 Speaker 2: No one thinks it's a great story to do something 471 00:25:33,742 --> 00:25:37,142 Speaker 2: about a dead child that's been sexually assaulted, it's just 472 00:25:37,222 --> 00:25:38,422 Speaker 2: too awful to contemplate. 473 00:25:49,782 --> 00:25:51,822 Speaker 1: When you did pick up the story twenty years after 474 00:25:51,862 --> 00:25:54,782 Speaker 1: the fact and started writing about it again, did you 475 00:25:54,902 --> 00:25:58,302 Speaker 1: find that people were interested they wanted to hear more. 476 00:25:58,662 --> 00:26:01,262 Speaker 2: Well, they really. If you write a story graphically enough 477 00:26:01,302 --> 00:26:04,782 Speaker 2: and with some sort of style and timing and effect, 478 00:26:04,862 --> 00:26:07,942 Speaker 2: that people will read it for sure. But it wasn't 479 00:26:08,062 --> 00:26:10,782 Speaker 2: until I did it for Good Weekend magazine. It was 480 00:26:10,782 --> 00:26:13,462 Speaker 2: the twentieth anniversary of Good Weekend Magazine and it was 481 00:26:13,502 --> 00:26:15,622 Speaker 2: the twentieth anniversary of the Tap murder, so that was 482 00:26:15,622 --> 00:26:19,102 Speaker 2: the perfect crime story to put in that mag and 483 00:26:19,182 --> 00:26:21,582 Speaker 2: I did it as a big, long piece. It's probably 484 00:26:21,582 --> 00:26:25,582 Speaker 2: five thousand words and read, examining a case that most 485 00:26:25,622 --> 00:26:28,982 Speaker 2: people couldn't remember or had never heard of. No one 486 00:26:28,982 --> 00:26:31,502 Speaker 2: in Sydney would have heard of it at all before that. 487 00:26:31,822 --> 00:26:33,662 Speaker 1: I don't think many people in Australia might. 488 00:26:33,542 --> 00:26:35,782 Speaker 2: Have heard of it. Oh true, But I'm just saying, yeah, 489 00:26:35,822 --> 00:26:38,422 Speaker 2: I mean some Melbourne people. I mean I certainly remembered 490 00:26:38,422 --> 00:26:41,982 Speaker 2: it happening, but I was a crime reporter, so naturally 491 00:26:42,022 --> 00:26:45,982 Speaker 2: I should remember. But it's only become more notorious in 492 00:26:46,022 --> 00:26:48,622 Speaker 2: the last twenty years, when we'd focused on it a bit. 493 00:26:48,782 --> 00:26:50,982 Speaker 1: Do you think that that crime could ever be solved 494 00:26:51,102 --> 00:26:52,662 Speaker 1: now that we are forty years down the track. 495 00:26:53,062 --> 00:26:56,742 Speaker 2: It depends on whether they have usable DNA. I don't 496 00:26:56,742 --> 00:26:58,502 Speaker 2: know if they have or not. And if they have, 497 00:26:59,222 --> 00:27:02,702 Speaker 2: who knows. One day somebody somewhere might fall into the net. 498 00:27:03,022 --> 00:27:05,582 Speaker 1: I want to ask you more generally, because you've written 499 00:27:05,582 --> 00:27:08,382 Speaker 1: about a lot of crime in your career, what has 500 00:27:08,422 --> 00:27:13,462 Speaker 1: it taught you about people looking into the worst of society. 501 00:27:14,182 --> 00:27:18,622 Speaker 2: Nature and nurture both apply. But most of the most 502 00:27:18,662 --> 00:27:23,822 Speaker 2: awful violent killers have been to a large extent, created 503 00:27:24,462 --> 00:27:28,142 Speaker 2: by what happened to them as kids. And this is 504 00:27:28,142 --> 00:27:31,302 Speaker 2: not to excuse anyone, but I've just realized in the 505 00:27:31,342 --> 00:27:34,382 Speaker 2: last decade or so that I keep saying these patterns emerge. 506 00:27:34,782 --> 00:27:37,902 Speaker 2: The family caught bomber up here. Leonard the mad fireman, 507 00:27:38,222 --> 00:27:41,462 Speaker 2: killed people everywhere, shot them, he bombed them, he burnt 508 00:27:41,462 --> 00:27:45,582 Speaker 2: places down, He did terrible things, very angry man. And 509 00:27:45,622 --> 00:27:47,222 Speaker 2: when you go back and look at that story, you 510 00:27:47,302 --> 00:27:50,582 Speaker 2: go now, Leonard was all right until his mom died 511 00:27:50,582 --> 00:27:54,142 Speaker 2: when he was ten, and then he ends up in 512 00:27:54,182 --> 00:27:57,462 Speaker 2: that notorious boy's home where kids were abused. And so 513 00:27:57,582 --> 00:28:01,222 Speaker 2: this smiling little kid pictured in grade six, by the 514 00:28:01,302 --> 00:28:05,462 Speaker 2: time he's fourteen, he's sullen and vengeful and weird. Were 515 00:28:05,462 --> 00:28:08,102 Speaker 2: why because he went to that place and he will 516 00:28:08,102 --> 00:28:12,502 Speaker 2: have been raped undoubtedly that place. Christoph Dale Flannery, the 517 00:28:12,742 --> 00:28:16,502 Speaker 2: big time hit man, was disappeared in Sydney, murdered by 518 00:28:16,582 --> 00:28:20,822 Speaker 2: gangster's prolific killer known as Renter Kill. Very violent man 519 00:28:21,662 --> 00:28:25,262 Speaker 2: was sent to a boy's home in Victoria called Morning Star, 520 00:28:26,102 --> 00:28:29,742 Speaker 2: run by the Franciscan monks. His cousin told me that 521 00:28:29,782 --> 00:28:32,342 Speaker 2: he used to cry when he talked about what had 522 00:28:32,342 --> 00:28:35,622 Speaker 2: happened to him at the boy's home. Now, this is 523 00:28:35,702 --> 00:28:38,062 Speaker 2: true of so many of these guys that if you 524 00:28:38,142 --> 00:28:41,462 Speaker 2: go back through it, you find out that they were exposed. 525 00:28:41,702 --> 00:28:43,582 Speaker 2: I can do this for an hour. I can tell 526 00:28:43,622 --> 00:28:45,622 Speaker 2: you examples of it, and I won't bore you with it. 527 00:28:45,902 --> 00:28:49,262 Speaker 2: But trust me, so many of them, including that you know, 528 00:28:49,262 --> 00:28:52,782 Speaker 2: the Russell Street bombs in Melbourne, the old guy Stan Taylor, 529 00:28:53,102 --> 00:28:56,142 Speaker 2: who was the mentor to those young bucks. He had 530 00:28:56,222 --> 00:28:58,862 Speaker 2: been put in a Salvation Army boy when he was 531 00:28:58,942 --> 00:29:02,262 Speaker 2: nine for good reason. His own life would have been awful. 532 00:29:02,662 --> 00:29:06,142 Speaker 2: His father was a brute. He'd been brutalized as a youngster, 533 00:29:06,542 --> 00:29:11,142 Speaker 2: an intelligent youngster, brutalized and then always trying to get 534 00:29:11,182 --> 00:29:13,622 Speaker 2: back at the world in some way, and it turns 535 00:29:13,702 --> 00:29:17,582 Speaker 2: them into very, very violent, evil people. And I think 536 00:29:17,622 --> 00:29:20,942 Speaker 2: that's something I've realized more and more and more that 537 00:29:21,062 --> 00:29:23,502 Speaker 2: you see that pattern repeated often. 538 00:29:24,062 --> 00:29:26,502 Speaker 1: What about the criminal justice system, because I think doing 539 00:29:26,542 --> 00:29:30,142 Speaker 1: this podcast, obviously there are so many police officers out 540 00:29:30,142 --> 00:29:32,262 Speaker 1: there doing the right thing, but then there are certain 541 00:29:32,302 --> 00:29:35,262 Speaker 1: cases like the one we've been talking about today, where 542 00:29:35,662 --> 00:29:38,942 Speaker 1: things haven't been done correctly, people have potentially fallen through 543 00:29:38,942 --> 00:29:41,102 Speaker 1: gaps or there's corruption. What have you learned from that 544 00:29:41,222 --> 00:29:43,342 Speaker 1: or do you feel a bit jaded? 545 00:29:44,022 --> 00:29:46,982 Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, I think police forces have probably improved in 546 00:29:47,062 --> 00:29:50,902 Speaker 2: many ways. I think they're more honest now, please, Because 547 00:29:50,982 --> 00:29:53,902 Speaker 2: it used to be a step away from poverty for 548 00:29:54,142 --> 00:29:57,062 Speaker 2: working class boys. If you're big and strong and were 549 00:29:57,062 --> 00:29:59,102 Speaker 2: smart enough to get into the police source. You had 550 00:29:59,102 --> 00:30:02,062 Speaker 2: to have a certain level of proficiency. It was a 551 00:30:02,102 --> 00:30:05,982 Speaker 2: way to get away from swinging a pick or you know, 552 00:30:06,382 --> 00:30:10,062 Speaker 2: working on the tramways. It became a very corrupt brotherhood 553 00:30:10,262 --> 00:30:12,902 Speaker 2: for that reason that these were poor people on the 554 00:30:12,982 --> 00:30:16,222 Speaker 2: make they were battling to pay off a house, battling 555 00:30:16,222 --> 00:30:18,862 Speaker 2: to pay off a car, and the way they could 556 00:30:18,862 --> 00:30:22,142 Speaker 2: do that on their relatively poor wages was to take 557 00:30:22,422 --> 00:30:26,182 Speaker 2: money from sp bookies and from publicans and whatever else. 558 00:30:26,542 --> 00:30:29,782 Speaker 2: And that's what made police force, particularly in New South 559 00:30:29,822 --> 00:30:34,342 Speaker 2: Wales and Queensland but everywhere. That's what fostered that low 560 00:30:34,382 --> 00:30:38,382 Speaker 2: hum of corruption that bloomed magnificently in Sydney. I have 561 00:30:38,422 --> 00:30:42,062 Speaker 2: to say where it went right to the top. These days, 562 00:30:42,582 --> 00:30:45,582 Speaker 2: police work I think is more of a middle class 563 00:30:45,702 --> 00:30:48,502 Speaker 2: aspirational thing, and that you know, you may well know 564 00:30:48,582 --> 00:30:52,622 Speaker 2: people that are police officers. I'm getting your parents may 565 00:30:52,662 --> 00:30:54,862 Speaker 2: not have had a while guest, you know, back in 566 00:30:54,902 --> 00:30:58,262 Speaker 2: the day, or your grandparents. I may not making gross assumptions, 567 00:30:58,502 --> 00:30:59,622 Speaker 2: You're actually correct, you know. 568 00:30:59,622 --> 00:31:02,342 Speaker 1: What I mean, grandparents and parents. I don't think I 569 00:31:02,582 --> 00:31:05,262 Speaker 1: know a police officer, but I know several. Yeah, it's 570 00:31:05,262 --> 00:31:06,782 Speaker 1: a very esteemed profession. 571 00:31:07,182 --> 00:31:11,782 Speaker 2: It's changed and those people, the sort of modern, well fed, 572 00:31:11,942 --> 00:31:15,342 Speaker 2: clean cut kids. They don't tend to be corrupt. They're 573 00:31:15,342 --> 00:31:19,022 Speaker 2: not looking to steal twenty bucks for a start. They 574 00:31:19,062 --> 00:31:22,182 Speaker 2: don't feel poor. They might not be wealthy, but they 575 00:31:22,222 --> 00:31:25,062 Speaker 2: don't come from grinding poverty the way a lot of 576 00:31:25,102 --> 00:31:27,302 Speaker 2: people did. You know, people who were joining up in 577 00:31:27,302 --> 00:31:30,902 Speaker 2: the fifties, they remembered the depression, they remembered what it 578 00:31:30,942 --> 00:31:33,342 Speaker 2: was like to be hungry, and that made them pretty mean. 579 00:31:33,622 --> 00:31:36,422 Speaker 1: But I guess with so many crimes happening today, we 580 00:31:36,462 --> 00:31:38,582 Speaker 1: don't have all of the resources to go back and 581 00:31:38,822 --> 00:31:42,342 Speaker 1: undo all of the potentially bad police. 582 00:31:41,982 --> 00:31:44,862 Speaker 2: Work of the past dead right. And I can recall this. 583 00:31:44,982 --> 00:31:47,982 Speaker 2: I worked in this a tail end of that era. Place. 584 00:31:48,262 --> 00:31:50,622 Speaker 2: You know, the hard drinkers. What you did if you 585 00:31:50,622 --> 00:31:52,462 Speaker 2: wanted to get stories, You went to the pub and 586 00:31:52,542 --> 00:31:55,582 Speaker 2: you put them drink for drink and sometimes I'd tell 587 00:31:55,622 --> 00:31:57,502 Speaker 2: you something and write it down on a beer coaster, 588 00:31:58,262 --> 00:31:59,582 Speaker 2: put it in your pocket. 589 00:31:59,822 --> 00:32:01,942 Speaker 1: So you have, I guess a lot of hope seeing 590 00:32:01,942 --> 00:32:03,182 Speaker 1: the police work of today. 591 00:32:03,662 --> 00:32:07,422 Speaker 2: Look, it's technologically advanced. I mean, you know, it's like 592 00:32:07,542 --> 00:32:10,942 Speaker 2: flying aeroplanes. These days, there's a computer, this it for you, 593 00:32:11,462 --> 00:32:13,622 Speaker 2: and then the olden days you had to look at 594 00:32:13,622 --> 00:32:16,302 Speaker 2: the sky and working out for yourself. It's that different. 595 00:32:16,702 --> 00:32:18,462 Speaker 1: Well, as you said, it's harder to get away with 596 00:32:18,462 --> 00:32:19,342 Speaker 1: crime nowadays. 597 00:32:19,622 --> 00:32:22,782 Speaker 2: I think that in a modern Western world, you know 598 00:32:22,862 --> 00:32:25,702 Speaker 2: a place like Australia, Canada, US, whatever, those sort of 599 00:32:25,702 --> 00:32:30,422 Speaker 2: countries that a serious crime like murder is almost impossible 600 00:32:30,422 --> 00:32:36,182 Speaker 2: to get away with telephones, credit cards, FPOs, cars, registration, 601 00:32:36,502 --> 00:32:39,582 Speaker 2: all that stuff. You're traceable, and as soon as they 602 00:32:39,622 --> 00:32:43,822 Speaker 2: suspect that you're a potential candidate, they can backtrack and 603 00:32:43,862 --> 00:32:45,462 Speaker 2: work out where you were and when you were there. 604 00:32:46,102 --> 00:32:48,462 Speaker 2: And then suddenly they go, oh, well she was here 605 00:32:49,022 --> 00:32:51,262 Speaker 2: when so and say was killed twenty five feet away. 606 00:32:51,462 --> 00:32:54,182 Speaker 1: I mean, it's good news right now. It does make 607 00:32:54,262 --> 00:32:56,542 Speaker 1: me sad for the Margaret's and the Shawnas of the world. 608 00:32:56,702 --> 00:33:00,022 Speaker 2: It's a terrible story, both of them, but poor little Shauna. 609 00:33:00,182 --> 00:33:03,182 Speaker 1: It's actually a really sad story about what happened after 610 00:33:03,222 --> 00:33:05,942 Speaker 1: the murders because there was another child involved. 611 00:33:06,862 --> 00:33:10,262 Speaker 2: Oh, you're right. The last major story I did about this, 612 00:33:10,742 --> 00:33:13,022 Speaker 2: I went to England on other business and I went 613 00:33:13,102 --> 00:33:16,422 Speaker 2: to a regional town out of London called high Wickham 614 00:33:16,462 --> 00:33:20,382 Speaker 2: to find Sureness brother I'd arranged to go and see. Well, 615 00:33:20,382 --> 00:33:23,022 Speaker 2: by the time I got there, he was dead. But 616 00:33:23,102 --> 00:33:25,782 Speaker 2: you know, in the intervening weeks when I decided to 617 00:33:25,822 --> 00:33:29,462 Speaker 2: do this, he had essentially drunk himself to death and 618 00:33:29,502 --> 00:33:35,022 Speaker 2: perhaps even suicided justin Tap was older than short, so 619 00:33:35,342 --> 00:33:38,662 Speaker 2: I think he was thoughteen when the death happened. He 620 00:33:38,702 --> 00:33:40,542 Speaker 2: had an English passport, I think his dad might have 621 00:33:40,582 --> 00:33:43,382 Speaker 2: in English, and he used that to get back to 622 00:33:43,422 --> 00:33:46,262 Speaker 2: England and work there. And I went and found the 623 00:33:46,542 --> 00:33:49,862 Speaker 2: woman that he'd been living with at one point. She 624 00:33:49,982 --> 00:33:51,622 Speaker 2: was very nice and she picked me up from the 625 00:33:51,622 --> 00:33:54,302 Speaker 2: station and we out of long talk and she told 626 00:33:54,342 --> 00:33:56,102 Speaker 2: me about his sad life. She said he came in 627 00:33:56,062 --> 00:33:58,742 Speaker 2: and he played cricket and the local team and everybody 628 00:33:58,822 --> 00:34:01,622 Speaker 2: liked him, but he just couldn't get away from the 629 00:34:01,742 --> 00:34:05,302 Speaker 2: nightmares and the demons. And he always blamed himself because 630 00:34:05,302 --> 00:34:07,342 Speaker 2: he had he been home that night, which he wasn't. 631 00:34:07,382 --> 00:34:10,182 Speaker 2: He was staying with his grandparents, it wouldn't have happened. 632 00:34:10,182 --> 00:34:12,582 Speaker 2: He thought that he would have saved them. And so 633 00:34:12,862 --> 00:34:16,542 Speaker 2: the next, you know, thirty years, he blamed himself and 634 00:34:16,782 --> 00:34:19,742 Speaker 2: eventually it killed him. He basically drank himself to death. 635 00:34:19,942 --> 00:34:22,382 Speaker 2: He might have suicided. They couldn't tell when they found 636 00:34:22,422 --> 00:34:25,582 Speaker 2: his body. It was so badly they're composed that they 637 00:34:25,622 --> 00:34:26,422 Speaker 2: couldn't really tell. 638 00:34:26,622 --> 00:34:28,862 Speaker 1: So when we talk about the Tap murders, we talk 639 00:34:28,862 --> 00:34:31,462 Speaker 1: about Shawanna and Margaret, but really we should include Justin. 640 00:34:31,302 --> 00:34:34,502 Speaker 2: And oh yeah, there's that, and then the father of 641 00:34:34,542 --> 00:34:39,702 Speaker 2: the two children. I mean that poor man, innocent, nice, 642 00:34:40,302 --> 00:34:44,142 Speaker 2: harmless man whose life has just been wrecked. But it's 643 00:34:44,222 --> 00:34:47,702 Speaker 2: possible that there's some DNA sitting somewhere and one day 644 00:34:47,742 --> 00:34:49,902 Speaker 2: they'll nailor it's conceivable. 645 00:34:54,742 --> 00:34:57,542 Speaker 1: Thanks to Andrew Rule for assisting us to tell this story. 646 00:34:58,102 --> 00:35:01,422 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is a Muma Meer podcast hosted and 647 00:35:01,462 --> 00:35:05,382 Speaker 1: produced by me Jemma Bath. Our executive producer is Lift Proud. 648 00:35:06,102 --> 00:35:08,422 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week 649 00:35:08,662 --> 00:35:10,222 Speaker 1: with another True Crime Conversation