Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. So I wrote a
Speaker 2: dickhead list. It's inspired by today's guest who wrote her
Speaker 2: own and put it in a book. Imagine a blank page,
Speaker 2: Feel the pen twitching in your hand, scribble the words
Speaker 2: and being a dickhead when I and have at it,
Speaker 2: it's freeing. Do you want to hear mine? Okay, I'm
Speaker 2: being a dickhead when I don't listen, just wait to talk.
Speaker 2: Stare in the mirror until all my problems are about
Speaker 2: my jewls. Forget that my children aren't me, Refuse to
Speaker 2: look at my bank balance, get too comfy on my
Speaker 2: high horse. Open the clean dishwasher, take out a fork,
Speaker 2: close the clean dishwasher. I know I'm being a dickhead
Speaker 2: when I over commit and do a half fast job.
Speaker 2: Mentally blame other people for my half fast job, indulge
Speaker 2: in the poor me wallowing that over committing inevitably leads
Speaker 2: to all that. To say, I'm being a dickhead when
Speaker 2: I don't just grow a pair and say no, thank you.
Speaker 2: I can't write now, I'm being a dickhead when I
Speaker 2: forget that my mood affects others. Forget my keep cup,
Speaker 2: Forget I have choices, Forget how long it takes to
Speaker 2: do absolutely everything. Really try to bake and blame the
Speaker 2: recipe for the inevitable, inedible tin of shit.
Speaker 3: Refresh for likes.
Speaker 2: Judge books by their covers, and when I say books,
Speaker 2: I mean people. And when I say covers, I mean appearances.
Speaker 2: And when I say judge, I mean judge. I'm being
Speaker 2: a dickhead when I don't admit I was wrong. Don't
Speaker 2: pack snacks, don't call my mom, don't let the truth
Speaker 2: get in the way of an easy opinion, don't have
Speaker 2: time to read, don't check the weather. I never check
Speaker 2: the weather. I am being a dickhead when I am
Speaker 2: cruelest to those closest. Have two wines and start the lecture.
Speaker 2: Allow the fact that shampoo and conditioner are no longer
Speaker 2: in a big enough font on the bottles, and I
Speaker 2: allow it to ruin my entire morning. Start confusing other
Speaker 2: people's lives, choices, achievements with a commentary on my own.
Speaker 2: Start carrying salt sachets in my purse by a size
Speaker 2: too small. Get way too much enjoyment from listing all
Speaker 2: my faults. Hello, my name is Holly Wainwright and I
Speaker 2: am mid midlife, mid family mid writing a dickhead list.
Speaker 2: It's not a list of dickheads, although, let's face it,
Speaker 2: by this stage of life we've all met a few
Speaker 2: of those. They are a fact of life. As a
Speaker 2: wise woman once said, anyway you look, there'll be a dickhead.
Speaker 2: Better get used to it.
Speaker 1: Oh, we're used to it.
Speaker 2: No, this list is for you. It's a list of
Speaker 2: warning signs, if you like red flags in online speak,
Speaker 2: that signal to us that we're getting a bit.
Speaker 1: Too far from who we are.
Speaker 2: It's when you go against your experience and towards your bullshit.
Speaker 2: Today's guest, Casey Chambers, has built a career on tuning
Speaker 2: into her gut and my not pretty ener.
Speaker 1: Is my heart too proory? Captain and I are no
Speaker 1: one tend feels oh wanna be?
Speaker 2: She calls it her little Foghorn, the foghorn who told
Speaker 2: her that her first album should be called The Captain,
Speaker 2: despite the suits thinking it was a terrible idea. The
Speaker 2: Captain went on to go platinum three times. It was
Speaker 2: the Foghorn who pushed Casey to ask ed Sheeran if
Speaker 2: he might like to sing with her, even though she
Speaker 2: was pretty convinced he might be, you know, busy. He
Speaker 2: did the foghorn that told her to seek help for
Speaker 2: an eating disorder that brought her to her knees, to
Speaker 2: leave a marriage that was no longer working, to parent
Speaker 2: against the grain, and to step off the glamorous but
Speaker 2: arduous international touring circuit to get back to what she loved,
Speaker 2: traveling around Australia in a van with her family, singing
Speaker 2: songs to people who wanted to hear them. That refusal
Speaker 2: to get caught up in what we're told we should
Speaker 2: want rather than what we actually do. That's Casey's special source.
Speaker 2: Not pretty enough, who gives a fuck? Try to look younger?
Speaker 2: Why though sing songs about divorce with her ex husband
Speaker 2: sounds like a bloody brilliant idea still tour with her
Speaker 2: dad doing merchant, her mum doing babysitting, even though her parents'
Speaker 2: romantic relationship ended ages ago. Absolutely, this conversation is an
Speaker 2: absolute gem, because Casey is an absolute gem. It's dripping
Speaker 2: with hard won mid lessons, good advice, and stories of
Speaker 2: times everything went tits up, many of them recounted in
Speaker 2: Casey's book called You Guessed It.
Speaker 3: Just don't be a dickhead. And there are two bits.
Speaker 2: In particular that are the kind of sparkly conversations duels
Speaker 2: I wrote down immediately and I think about them all
Speaker 2: the time. I'll tell you what they are at the
Speaker 2: end and see if they're the same as yours. So
Speaker 2: welcome to me and Casey Chambers, the most undickheady rock
Speaker 2: star you're ever going to meet. Casey, you wrote a
Speaker 2: book on the notes app on your phone? Do you
Speaker 2: know that makes you very generation Z.
Speaker 1: Well, it's the only thing that makes me that actually,
Speaker 1: and the reason for that is that I am really
Speaker 1: bad at anything technical and I don't even own a laptop. Wow,
Speaker 1: So what I'm doing this interview on right now is
Speaker 1: not even my laptop. So I had to borrow this
Speaker 1: so that we could do this interview because I don't
Speaker 1: know how to use a laptop.
Speaker 2: Well, so you explain about what you just told me
Speaker 2: in the sort of intro to the book, and you
Speaker 2: also say in that you explore your insecurities about publishing
Speaker 2: a book at all. Right, you say you went through
Speaker 2: this process of going. You know, I'm not a writer.
Speaker 2: I can't write it. Maybe I shouldn't put it out there.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's too vulnerable. I wanted to ask you about confidence,
Speaker 2: because although I think that when you get to grown
Speaker 2: up age, as I like to call it, in some ways,
Speaker 2: we're much more confident.
Speaker 3: We've survived a lot of stuff, but also a.
Speaker 2: Lot of midwomen suffer from a lot of anxiety and
Speaker 2: lack of confidence too, and we think, oh, who am
Speaker 2: I to say whatever? You obviously overcame that to get
Speaker 2: this book out.
Speaker 3: What have you learned.
Speaker 2: About how to shut up that insecure voice in your head?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Oh, do you know what. I don't think I
Speaker 1: shut her up. I think I'm just a little bit
Speaker 1: more aware of why she pops in, so I don't
Speaker 1: I don't even know that we should shut her up.
Speaker 2: That's interesting.
Speaker 1: I'm not I think it's okay to feel insecure about stuff.
Speaker 1: I think it's what we do with that that is
Speaker 1: probably the most important part. Because she popped in for
Speaker 1: a reason. You know, she popped in because I'm doing
Speaker 1: something I've never done before. And you know what, she
Speaker 1: actually had a lot of really legitimate reasons as to
Speaker 1: why I shouldn't go any further, you know, because it like,
Speaker 1: I'm not in all and you know, if anyone reads
Speaker 1: this book, they will know exactly what I'm talking about
Speaker 1: in the first few paragraphs. I'm not an author at all.
Speaker 2: I don't know, but you.
Speaker 1: Know I don't. I don't write in the way that
Speaker 1: you would you would read mot It's just conversational. It's
Speaker 1: the way that I would talk to you right now.
Speaker 1: And I'm going to try and have a few less
Speaker 1: swear words in this interview than what are in the book.
Speaker 3: You can have a couple. It's okay, we're all grown ups.
Speaker 3: It's okay.
Speaker 2: Try but that's really interesting. Tell me about that, because
Speaker 2: you know, I think that often we're told well, like
Speaker 2: fake it till you make it, tell you're in a
Speaker 2: critic to shut up, tell them to take a back seat.
Speaker 2: But sometimes they have got valid things to say.
Speaker 1: Right totally. And I think you know, she was coming
Speaker 1: in to go, yeah, like you you don't know what
Speaker 1: you're doing. This is something new that's for you that
Speaker 1: you've never done before. But then I guess I think
Speaker 1: about it a little bit more and go, well, does
Speaker 1: that mean that I shouldn't put it out like, just
Speaker 1: because it's not going to be the great book in
Speaker 1: the world, it's not going to change the world. It's
Speaker 1: not going to be for everybody. It's a very acquired taste,
Speaker 1: you know. It's like, just because it's not all of
Speaker 1: those things that you feel insecure about, does that mean
Speaker 1: you don't get the chance to share it? Of course
Speaker 1: I can, you know, and the people that will like
Speaker 1: it will gravitate towards it, And even if that's only
Speaker 1: my mom's then that's okay. Although she actually thinks there's
Speaker 1: too much swearing in it, but aside from that, she
Speaker 1: kind of likes it.
Speaker 3: Of course she does.
Speaker 2: I I mean, obviously I'm going to disagree with you
Speaker 2: and say I think there's loads of wisdom in this
Speaker 2: book that will be relevant to everybody. But we'll get
Speaker 2: to all that. But it's interesting because there are a
Speaker 2: couple of other times in the book where you do
Speaker 2: talk about how you had to push yourself to be
Speaker 2: more confident than you felt. You know, like there's a
Speaker 2: story in there about when you really wanted to work
Speaker 2: with ad Sharon, for example, and you were like too
Speaker 2: nervous to ask because you're like, of course he's going
Speaker 2: to say no.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So sometimes we do.
Speaker 2: Just have to suck up that, like who do I
Speaker 2: think I am? Stuff and jump.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely, I definitely went through that when I
Speaker 1: was asking Ed to sing on this song. And I
Speaker 1: don't know him well or and he we're not really
Speaker 1: good friends or anything, but we have some mutual friends
Speaker 1: and we were label mates there for a bit and stuff.
Speaker 1: So I had a way of asking him, you know,
Speaker 1: through a really good friend of mine. And I did
Speaker 1: go through that thing where I went, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I can't ask Ed Sheeran. He's the biggest artist in
Speaker 1: the world, and you know, that's just ridiculous that I
Speaker 1: would think that someone like him would sing on a song.
Speaker 1: And then there's the other end of the scale where
Speaker 1: you want to be so confident and you go like,
Speaker 1: you tell yourself, no, don't be insecure. You should be
Speaker 1: able to ask anyone anything or whatever. And at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, that's probably a bit of my
Speaker 1: ego talking or whatever, but I think a lot of
Speaker 1: it is about bringing in the actual realistic situation rather
Speaker 1: than listening to these two extreme voices, yeah, where one
Speaker 1: is designed just to give you self doubt, you know,
Speaker 1: and to bring in all these things and to try
Speaker 1: and convince you to not do anything, because staying in
Speaker 1: your comfort zone is obviously much more comfortable. And then
Speaker 1: the other one is to protect you this ego that
Speaker 1: has been developed to protect you from ever getting hurt
Speaker 1: or whatever, and then it turns into this massive ego
Speaker 1: where you think you're way better than you are, which
Speaker 1: I've been there as well. But then at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, there's just this realistic situation in the
Speaker 1: middle where I can ask him, he can say no,
Speaker 1: and yeah, my pride might be hurt a bit, but
Speaker 1: what's the big deal about that? Anyway, you put yourself
Speaker 1: out there, and I think it's just trying to be
Speaker 1: even just with the book, of putting the book out there,
Speaker 1: just going this is just about me sharing my stories.
Speaker 1: Not everyone has to like it, not everyone has to
Speaker 1: connect to it. I think once I started convincing myself
Speaker 1: that the book is really similar to music, that I
Speaker 1: put myself out there in music, and I don't really
Speaker 1: care most of the time. Now, don't get me wrong,
Speaker 1: I hope that people like my music. I'm not sitting
Speaker 1: back going on. I don't give a shoot, you know whatever.
Speaker 1: Of course, I do. I want people to come to
Speaker 1: my shows, and it's really nice when people like my
Speaker 1: music and connect to it. Of course I want that,
Speaker 1: but it's not the only reason. Just getting praise and
Speaker 1: compliments and like having a number one song or album
Speaker 1: or whatever. That's not why I'm doing it. It's more like,
Speaker 1: if they're the bonuses that happen along the way, then
Speaker 1: that's great. It just turned into one.
Speaker 2: But it's interesting because, well, first of all, I want
Speaker 2: to say that what you just said is so good
Speaker 2: about asking for what you want, well, what you'd love
Speaker 2: or whatever, and not being afraid of the no. Because
Speaker 2: not everybody who's listened to this obviously is asking Ed
Speaker 2: Sharon to sing on a song with.
Speaker 3: Them, but they are.
Speaker 1: Now, oh yeah, they will.
Speaker 2: Now the man's inboxes flowing as we're talking about. But
Speaker 2: asking for anything that you want or what you need
Speaker 2: is really hard, and for women, I think in particular
Speaker 2: sometimes because it's always like, oh, do I sound myself?
Speaker 2: Do I sound unreasonable? So I think that's a really
Speaker 2: good lesson. But to the book and the album, it's
Speaker 2: such a creative idea, right because you've got these chapters
Speaker 2: that are sort of like little lessons and they're almost
Speaker 2: got affirmations through them, which is so interesting. But then
Speaker 2: there's also through it like QR codes where you can
Speaker 2: scan and listen to the new album, which is why
Speaker 2: the book and the album are coming out at once.
Speaker 2: It's very clever. It made me think because obviously reading this,
Speaker 2: music has been in your blood and your life since
Speaker 2: you were born and since and you have been performing
Speaker 2: since you were nine, And I was thinking that this
Speaker 2: is such an original, interesting way of getting your music
Speaker 2: out there. You must have seen so much change in
Speaker 2: the industry and how to get your music to the
Speaker 2: people who want to hear it. Is that exhausting or
Speaker 2: is it an interesting creative challenge? And do you still
Speaker 2: love that challenge?
Speaker 1: I don't. It's neither. It's not exhausting, and I don't
Speaker 1: think I look at it like a challenge, although if
Speaker 1: I break it down, I probably do get excited about
Speaker 1: coming up with new ways and stuff like that. In
Speaker 1: saying that it's funny when you just said, then it's
Speaker 1: a really clever way to do it. That QR code
Speaker 1: thing literally came about. I thought of it a week
Speaker 1: before we signed off on the book. Really, do you
Speaker 1: know the only reason it came about just so the
Speaker 1: listener knows you can read a little story. So some
Speaker 1: of the stories inspired songs, and some of the songs
Speaker 1: inspired stories in the book, right, So from a creative
Speaker 1: point of view, it's always been connected. But yeah, I
Speaker 1: just thought, oh, I wonder if that's a possibility to
Speaker 1: do that, because on the first little bit the note
Speaker 1: of Intention in the book, I had just signed off
Speaker 1: on the last little bit of where that would sit
Speaker 1: and the photos that come after it and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: and I got to the end of that chapter reading it,
Speaker 1: and I went, oh, my god, I just wish people
Speaker 1: could hear A New Day Has Come, because that's the
Speaker 1: first track on my album, and that song is really
Speaker 1: closely related to that note of Intention, just by accident,
Speaker 1: you know. I wrote the song years ago, in the
Speaker 1: middle of COVID actually, and then I was just like,
Speaker 1: I really want people to hear this right now, Like
Speaker 1: I want them to hear almost like the soundtrack of
Speaker 1: what they just read and be in that with me.
Speaker 1: That's what I hear.
Speaker 2: Love that to the harves Lot of the Dawn.
Speaker 3: As because.
Speaker 1: The Good Days.
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask some of the books lessons affirmations.
Speaker 3: What would you call them?
Speaker 2: There's sort of statements that prop up through the book.
Speaker 1: Well I call them lessons, I guess, But yeah, I
Speaker 1: think of them like these little echoes in my in
Speaker 1: my head, you know that that just pop in at
Speaker 1: times in my life to go like just little reminders.
Speaker 1: And I really think it is that inner voice you
Speaker 1: know that I probably know anyway. I mean in real life,
Speaker 1: I call her my inner foghorn.
Speaker 3: You're in a foghorn. I love it.
Speaker 1: You know. Sometimes she's just like really full on about
Speaker 1: about trying to get my attention and that although I
Speaker 1: still ignore herself times, but I yeah, just this inner
Speaker 1: voice that I have that I believe we all have,
Speaker 1: you know that. I think there's more answers in there
Speaker 1: than what we give them credit for, you know. And
Speaker 1: I think she's been there a long time. And then
Speaker 1: I dull her down at times in my life and
Speaker 1: I let the outer noise drown her out a lot.
Speaker 1: You know, she's she's just really oh sorry, I'll get okay.
Speaker 1: It's just this really it's like she's this little girl
Speaker 1: that's just way more wise than I am and not
Speaker 1: just like and often I think I think that I
Speaker 1: know better than her because I've learned all this stuff
Speaker 1: and you know, and I don't know. Sometimes I try
Speaker 1: to think of her like like, you know, this guide
Speaker 1: that really does know my path better than people that
Speaker 1: are telling me what my path should be. And I
Speaker 1: think that's the thing in the industry when when you know,
Speaker 1: or any industry, probably I can really only talk from my.
Speaker 2: Own well and life and the world and all the
Speaker 2: things it's always telling you to be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're just I'm more than ever. We're constantly just
Speaker 1: told who we should be and what we should look like,
Speaker 1: and you know, what we should sound like, and what
Speaker 1: we should say and what we should believe. Even more,
Speaker 1: you know, like probably that that one's the hardest one
Speaker 1: is we decide that this is what we believe.
Speaker 3: And and.
Speaker 1: The thing is we can believe whatever we want any
Speaker 1: day of the week. We can take it all out
Speaker 1: and go, I don't believe that anymore. I'm going to
Speaker 1: believe this now because that resonates with this inner voice.
Speaker 1: And yeah, but she's she's pretty important.
Speaker 2: Do you think that it makes you emotional thinking about
Speaker 2: the inner foghorn because of what sometimes it costs us
Speaker 2: when we don't listen to her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I do because I tune her out a lot,
Speaker 1: you know, and that's that's like the basically the ultimate
Speaker 1: being a dickhead for me, Yeah, is just basically tuning
Speaker 1: her out and not listening to her because, you know,
Speaker 1: I think it's it's funny because whenever people say, oh,
Speaker 1: what would you go back and tell your younger self?
Speaker 1: Whenever anyone asks me that, now now that you know what,
Speaker 1: you know, what would you go back and tell your
Speaker 1: younger self? And I'm like, well, I'd probably just stay
Speaker 1: here and listen to my younger self more because I
Speaker 1: think because I had this free spirited lifestyle, and I
Speaker 1: think this is really this is where my life early
Speaker 1: on was quite different than most people's. You know, I
Speaker 1: grew up in the outback with my family for the
Speaker 1: first ten years of my life, living this free spirited
Speaker 1: lifestyle where it is nothing like what a lot of
Speaker 1: people are getting nowadays. It's not even like what my
Speaker 1: children are getting, and they're getting a bit of free
Speaker 1: spirited lifestyle with traveling and touring with me, but it's
Speaker 1: still not like that. I mean, this is before obviously
Speaker 1: social media and all of this world, but even a
Speaker 1: step away from that. I wasn't even getting the things,
Speaker 1: all the influences and the judgment and that sort of
Speaker 1: thing that any other kid was getting of my age
Speaker 1: as well. We were just living this free spirited lifestyle
Speaker 1: with these kind of hippie parents that just let us
Speaker 1: just be whoever we wanted to be. And my parents
Speaker 1: are still like it. You know, there's still I'm so
Speaker 1: so grateful of this that there was no be on
Speaker 1: your best behavior and say the right things in front
Speaker 1: of these people. Whenever I tell myself that I have
Speaker 1: to be a certain way or none of that is
Speaker 1: from what I've been taught as a child. All of
Speaker 1: that is learnt from being a part of society, and
Speaker 1: that's you. We're all told, particularly women are told this
Speaker 1: is how we're supposed to be.
Speaker 2: I'll be back with more of Casey Chambers in a moment.
Speaker 2: She's going to tell me about co parenting with her
Speaker 2: two x's, but until then, here's.
Speaker 3: A little break.
Speaker 2: One of the lessons that I loved and I want
Speaker 2: to talk to about in regards to kind of aging
Speaker 2: and the women listening to this. When I grow up,
Speaker 2: I want to be a kid again. You said, where
Speaker 2: he says one of your your sort of lessons in
Speaker 2: the book, which is kind of what you're just saying
Speaker 2: about wanting to get back to that free spirit. I
Speaker 2: was also thinking because in the book, when you described
Speaker 2: those early days and your dad was earning a living
Speaker 2: hunting feral foxes and things. You're traveling, you write a
Speaker 2: little list of rules that you had as a kid,
Speaker 2: and they were like, don't.
Speaker 3: Touch the rifles.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 2: I know, it was not like normal, it's not normal
Speaker 2: and inverted commers. But I wonder if that free spirit
Speaker 2: in this must have made it really a big shock
Speaker 2: when you were suddenly like you go to school at
Speaker 2: different points and you're like, whoa sare's a lot like
Speaker 2: so much.
Speaker 1: It was really particularly going to high school for me,
Speaker 1: because that's when we really stopped, you know, having that
Speaker 1: nomadic sort of lifestyle, free spirited lifestyle. I went to
Speaker 1: high school and I was like, oh my god, what
Speaker 1: the hell is this? And not only like structure, having
Speaker 1: structure in my life where you had to be at
Speaker 1: a class at a certain time or whatever I mean
Speaker 1: I did. I was homeschooled around a campfire. We did
Speaker 1: like an hour of schooling in the morning was about
Speaker 1: it and then we move on and whatever. So then
Speaker 1: high school was quite a shock for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is where a lot of people start
Speaker 2: learning about, Oh, I've got to make myself smaller, I've
Speaker 2: got to fit in this box. I've got to please
Speaker 2: those people. High school is where a lot of us
Speaker 2: first get all.
Speaker 1: That input, isn't it just And I have a daughter
Speaker 1: that's that's going through this right now. She is in
Speaker 1: her first year of high school at the moment, you know,
Speaker 1: and you know, she's a real little free spirit as well,
Speaker 1: and it's just one of those things that I'm just
Speaker 1: so aware of that I don't want her to dull
Speaker 1: that free spirit because of all the judgment now. And
Speaker 1: she's not on social media or anything. All of her
Speaker 1: friends are. She's the only girl in her group that
Speaker 1: is not on social media or which she's handling very
Speaker 1: well so far, which I'm loving. And she said to me,
Speaker 1: I even asked her about it the other day, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, how are you feeling about that? You know,
Speaker 1: because we talk about it, and I talk to her about,
Speaker 1: you know, things of why she's not on it and
Speaker 1: why I prefer it if she's not at this point,
Speaker 1: you know, and so far, it's it's been quite easy
Speaker 1: because she's kind of like, I don't really want to.
Speaker 1: She's like, every time my friends are on social media,
Speaker 1: they don't talk to me in person anymore, Like they'll
Speaker 1: go and see on their phone and then no one
Speaker 1: talks to me, and I'm not, She's like, and so
Speaker 1: she kind of sees it as a negative thing right now.
Speaker 1: So that's an easy one to get over the line.
Speaker 1: But I know the conversations are going to get harder,
Speaker 1: and you know that that's gonna Yeah, I'll be a
Speaker 1: lot harder to it.
Speaker 2: It is tricky because it's just so much input. But
Speaker 2: I wanted when you were when I grew up. I
Speaker 2: want to be a kid again. And then I was
Speaker 2: also listening to your song with Paul Kelly when We're
Speaker 2: Old and Madden. In that video you're like riding around
Speaker 2: on bikes like being crazy. Do you think that the
Speaker 2: real anti ageing? You know, like we're all told it
Speaker 2: talked about anti aging all the time, and I want
Speaker 2: to read out some of your amazing words about that soon.
Speaker 2: But do you think the real anti aging secret is
Speaker 2: to hold on to that playfulness, that curiosity, that don't
Speaker 2: give a fuck attitude. Do you think that's really what
Speaker 2: we should be focusing on when we talk about aging.
Speaker 1: So much, because you know, like most I mean, maybe
Speaker 1: it's changing a little bit these days, but I think
Speaker 1: of myself in the first ten years of my life,
Speaker 1: I could not have cared less what I look like,
Speaker 1: you know, Like I know that. I know that it's
Speaker 1: a little different now in with girls and they're and
Speaker 1: they're you know, caring about that stuff a lot earlier
Speaker 1: than what they did when I was a kid. But
Speaker 1: it is it's that full circle. And it's so funny,
Speaker 1: isn't it, Because then as we get older, a lot
Speaker 1: of us end up going, oh, what was I so
Speaker 1: worried about? Why am I spending so much of my
Speaker 1: energy worrying about how many wrinkles I have on my face?
Speaker 1: You know? So it's coming all the way back to
Speaker 1: how we used to think about ourselves as children, because
Speaker 1: we weren't taught yet to care about that or to
Speaker 1: identify as that, you know. And so again I want
Speaker 1: to go back and be I want the free spirit
Speaker 1: I had when I was a kid, and I think
Speaker 1: when I tune into her as a forty eight year
Speaker 1: old woman now that is when I'm the happiest in
Speaker 1: my life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I need to read you this bit about this
Speaker 2: thing because this is from your book and it's It
Speaker 2: really touched me because it's something I'm really trying to
Speaker 2: do and lots of women I know are trying to do.
Speaker 2: And you wrote this is so lovely. This but you wrote,
Speaker 2: We're all getting older every single day, every single minute.
Speaker 2: It's inevitable. It's a shared similarity that we all have,
Speaker 2: whether we like it or not. We're taught to fight it.
Speaker 2: We're told that it's a negative thing and that we
Speaker 2: should resist it at all costs. We are trained to
Speaker 2: keep the battle against it alive for as long as
Speaker 2: we possibly can. We condition to believe that youth equals
Speaker 2: beauty and aging represents losing that beauty. This is the
Speaker 2: bit I love. But what if they are wrong? What
Speaker 2: if they're so wrong it's actually the exact opposite. What
Speaker 2: if our true beauty lies within our aging experience. What
Speaker 2: if I simply choose not to believe what I'm told anymore?
Speaker 2: What if I choose to see getting older as the
Speaker 2: most beautiful and empowering thing that could ever happen to me.
Speaker 2: Sometimes when I look in the mirror. Now, if I
Speaker 2: look through the eyes of my heart instead of the
Speaker 2: eyes of society, I don't just see lines. I just
Speaker 2: love that looking at your face through your lens and
Speaker 2: not society's lens. And what if they are wrong?
Speaker 1: I just sorry. I've never heard anyone read my book
Speaker 1: back to me.
Speaker 2: I love those words. Casey really touched me. It actually
Speaker 2: made me. When I was prepping for this and I
Speaker 2: was reading that bit, it actually made me teary, Like you,
Speaker 2: why does it affect us so much?
Speaker 1: This stuff?
Speaker 2: It's so interesting, the aging stuff, Like.
Speaker 1: Look, I think I think that is at the very least.
Speaker 1: I hope that there is someone out there that reads
Speaker 1: that and goes, oh yeah, hang on, maybe we can
Speaker 1: question what we're being told because it's not I'm not
Speaker 1: even saying I'm not saying everybody's wrong, don't listen to society,
Speaker 1: don't go on social media. I'm not saying any of that.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying for me, when I think about it,
Speaker 1: it doesn't resonate. It actually doesn't resonate with my inner voice,
Speaker 1: like my inner Folkhorn is actually saying, nah, we actually
Speaker 1: don't want to fight aging. So and I buy into it.
Speaker 1: Trust me. I'm not saying I don't like. I sit
Speaker 1: there and I'll sit on social media sometimes and I'll go, oh,
Speaker 1: my god, she looks so beautiful and I wish I
Speaker 1: was a couple of size as smaller so I could
Speaker 1: look like that in that dress. And I will say, oh,
Speaker 1: I should buy that skincare because you know, her face
Speaker 1: looks flawless, and so I do. I do, and I
Speaker 1: even buy it sometimes. Do I get me wrong. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying, of course we all do. I do. I
Speaker 1: am affected by that stuff, and sometimes, you know, I
Speaker 1: get caught up in it. But if I if I
Speaker 1: ask myself the question, do I believe it? And I
Speaker 1: just don't. You know, I really don't because I look
Speaker 1: at my mom and I see everything. I see all
Speaker 1: the lines on her face, and it reminds me of
Speaker 1: all of the incredible travels. My Mum's traveled so much
Speaker 1: over the world, and she's been through a divorce that
Speaker 1: absolutely stated her. And she's been through, you know, losing
Speaker 1: close friends, and she's been through so much and it
Speaker 1: all shows on her face. But it shows as beauty,
Speaker 1: it shows as experience, and when I look at her,
Speaker 1: I don't see an old woman. I don't see an
Speaker 1: old you know, woman that's lost her beauty. I see
Speaker 1: everything she's been through and it is beautiful. It's so
Speaker 1: beautiful to look at. And I hope that my daughter
Speaker 1: sees that in my face. I don't want her to
Speaker 1: look into my face and see botox or you know,
Speaker 1: I don't want her to see me fighting against something
Speaker 1: that's so natural and if I just choose to see
Speaker 1: it another way can be so so beautiful. That's what
Speaker 1: I want my daughter to see in my face.
Speaker 2: That's so beautiful. Because when you just said that, and
Speaker 2: he said, i'd wanted to look in my face and
Speaker 2: see the first thing I thought was fear, like fear
Speaker 2: of aging, Like I don't want to look at my
Speaker 2: face and see her going like I'm not enough. I'm
Speaker 2: not enough. I'm not But you wrote a song for
Speaker 2: your mum about that, didn't you. I'm not gonna haven't
Speaker 2: got the lyrics in front of me. It's gonna annoy
Speaker 2: me that I don't. But about what the lines in
Speaker 2: her face reflected back?
Speaker 1: Your place? Anything?
Speaker 2: What was it?
Speaker 1: Do you know what's funny? The song isn't about that.
Speaker 1: It's a song that I wrote for her for Mother's Day.
Speaker 1: It's called mother It's from years ago. It's from like
Speaker 1: my third or fourth album, and it's not about that.
Speaker 1: It was never meant to be any statement or I
Speaker 1: wasn't trying to tell her, you know, anything or whatever.
Speaker 1: It was just it was a present for Mother's Day.
Speaker 1: And but one of the lines in the song says,
Speaker 1: you light a room with the lines on your face, right,
Speaker 1: And I didn't think anything of it. I just put
Speaker 1: it in the song and it sounded beautiful when I
Speaker 1: sang it. And she told me, this is really funny though,
Speaker 1: because this was after I had finished the book and
Speaker 1: she was reading about the bit about me talking about
Speaker 1: how I think that lines on my face are beautiful
Speaker 1: and that it shows your experience. And she said to me,
Speaker 1: you know, when you wrote that song for me, it
Speaker 1: changed the way I look at myself in the mirror
Speaker 1: because you saw it as such a beautiful thing and
Speaker 1: you put it into your song, and it made me
Speaker 1: change the way that I saw my own face. And
Speaker 1: she said, I think of that every time I look
Speaker 1: in the mirror. So I went back and added that
Speaker 1: little story into my book because I just thought, not
Speaker 1: only is it a beautiful thing that it helped her
Speaker 1: to be able to see herself differently. It also shows
Speaker 1: the power of what one thing that you say or sing,
Speaker 1: but what one thing you say to another human can
Speaker 1: actually change the way they think about themselves.
Speaker 2: I'll be back with more from Casey Chambers in a moment,
Speaker 2: including the pearl of wisdom that I scribbled down the
Speaker 2: minute it came out of her mouth, that story about
Speaker 2: your mum, and this line you've written in the book
Speaker 2: about when you try and look through the eyes of
Speaker 2: your heart. It also tells you something about a perspective shift.
Speaker 2: But it's interesting what you were just saying about everybody
Speaker 2: shouting at each other, because in your list of definitions
Speaker 2: of being a dickhead, you obviously you talk quite a
Speaker 2: bit in the book in different places, and then it
Speaker 2: is in your list about the kind of difference. Being
Speaker 2: strong doesn't make you an asshole, but being kind doesn't
Speaker 2: have to mean abandoning yourself. Like there's a bit of
Speaker 2: a through line here about speaking up for you yourself,
Speaker 2: but not bullying with it, not being an arsehole about it,
Speaker 2: and that I think that that is a line that.
Speaker 3: People are struggling with a lot at the moment.
Speaker 1: I struggle with it. That's why I had to put
Speaker 1: it in because I do struggle with it, and you know,
Speaker 1: particularly the one about being kind and abandoning yourself, and
Speaker 1: I actually think of it every time I you know,
Speaker 1: see people put on social media and that be kind
Speaker 1: that is, you know, the bottom line. Everyone has to
Speaker 1: be kind to everybody, and that that can be above everything,
Speaker 1: you know. And on one hand, I think there are
Speaker 1: kind ways to deliver things and to say things and
Speaker 1: to get your point across and all of that. But
Speaker 1: there's a real fine line between that and abandoning yourself.
Speaker 1: And it's another thing that I do try and teach
Speaker 1: my daughter that yeah, you can use your manners and
Speaker 1: you know, be kind and be you know, helpful, supportive
Speaker 1: and nice to people and blah blah blah. But if
Speaker 1: it means that you're abandoning who you are, that's not
Speaker 1: being kind anymore. You know that it's not about that anymore.
Speaker 1: It doesn't become about that anymore. It's about listening to
Speaker 1: that in a voice and going, well, if I stand
Speaker 1: up for myself here, am I going to offend somebody?
Speaker 1: You know? So that's just it is a fine line
Speaker 1: and it's one that I struggle with, honestly I do.
Speaker 2: I think we all do. But to the back to
Speaker 2: the strength and the lessons that show on our face
Speaker 2: and then all bits of us. Another song, ain't no
Speaker 2: little girl Mine, no.
Speaker 1: Nice crab.
Speaker 2: You've said that song with like the glue for a
Speaker 2: while that held you together almost And it's such a
Speaker 2: powerful like roar of a song almost, But it made
Speaker 2: me think about the most of us, and including you,
Speaker 2: when we get to this phase of our life. We've
Speaker 2: been through some storms, right, a lot of storms. You
Speaker 2: have been very open about talking about having an eating
Speaker 2: disorder and coming back from that. You've dealt with relationship breakdowns,
Speaker 2: You've dealt with by the sounds in your book, sort
Speaker 2: of perfectionism, and you know, keeping everything moving all the time.
Speaker 2: You know, you've had to learn a lot of lessons
Speaker 2: about all that. Do you feel now like all those
Speaker 2: storms have made you this powerful like I ain't no
Speaker 2: little girl person? Do you feel like that every day? Oh?
Speaker 1: Ah, No, I don't feel like her every day? Definitely not.
Speaker 2: It might be good to have a song to sing
Speaker 2: to make you feel like her.
Speaker 1: I do think she's there every day. She's absolutely in
Speaker 1: me every day. I just don't tune into her every day,
Speaker 1: so I think I am her. I just don't think
Speaker 1: I vibe like her day.
Speaker 2: You know, sometimes though, at the stage in our life,
Speaker 2: these things that we've been through and survive can come
Speaker 2: back and bart us on the ass too, right, Like
Speaker 2: hormones are going all over the place, and sometimes something
Speaker 2: pops up and you're like, I thought we've dealt with that.
Speaker 3: Have you had that experience?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think we changed too, And I love that.
Speaker 1: I love that we change. But then sometimes it makes
Speaker 1: the answer different that you end up with and you
Speaker 1: didn't learn the way to deal with it back then.
Speaker 1: That might have worked for them might not work now
Speaker 1: with who you are now, and it might not work
Speaker 1: in ten years time. If you go through the same thing,
Speaker 1: you might need to deal with it in a different way.
Speaker 1: So I think I had to go through a marriage
Speaker 1: breakdown to figure out how to be a better person
Speaker 1: in a relationship now, because you know, I wasn't quite
Speaker 1: the person that I convinced myself that I was in
Speaker 1: my marriage, you know, and I've had to really face that.
Speaker 1: So even though it feels uncomfortable, I think I embrace
Speaker 1: the like the discomfort now in situations because I know
Speaker 1: that I'm going to learn something for it from it.
Speaker 1: And it doesn't always make you feel better at the time.
Speaker 1: I get that, but at least it's a little reminder
Speaker 1: in there to go, Okay, you're gonna learn something from
Speaker 1: this along the way, and at least you can hang
Speaker 1: on to that just a little bit and maybe not
Speaker 1: let it swallow you up.
Speaker 2: Do you have to be quite vigilant to keep on
Speaker 2: top of your mental and physical health and stuff, well,
Speaker 2: especially when you're busy and you're touring and all those things.
Speaker 2: Have you learned lessons of how to stop yourself being
Speaker 2: swallowed up that maybe you didn't have when you were younger.
Speaker 1: I have conversations with myself all day every day. I mean,
Speaker 1: that sounds like it's a pretty boring life to have,
Speaker 1: doesn't it. No, you know, it's more just little little things.
Speaker 1: So I don't well, I guess I guess I do
Speaker 1: have some now that you're saying that. You know, I
Speaker 1: try to really eat really healthily and things like that,
Speaker 1: and I hate exercise. Oh my god, it's just like
Speaker 1: it'll it'll just be the thing.
Speaker 3: Do I have to do? I have to just the worst.
Speaker 1: So I'm a fairly like active person, but not when
Speaker 1: it comes to exercise, Like I'm just like, like, I
Speaker 1: don't sit still. I'm not a sitting still person at all.
Speaker 2: You're a meditator, though, aren't you, Didn't I think in
Speaker 2: your book everyone I interview, Casey is telling me I've
Speaker 2: got to meditate, and I'm like.
Speaker 3: Do I do? I really? I find sex still really
Speaker 3: hard to know.
Speaker 1: And you know what you don't have to do. It
Speaker 1: might not be your thing, and that's okay, you know
Speaker 1: that's what I am. Just like I started realizing that
Speaker 1: the more I did that. So I start every day
Speaker 1: with meditation. It's the first thing I do before I
Speaker 1: do anything.
Speaker 2: And has that Has that been a really good change
Speaker 2: for you? Like have you noticed a difference to your
Speaker 2: day if you do that?
Speaker 1: But also I will so if I'm feeling a bit
Speaker 1: like my day is getting away from me, and you
Speaker 1: know that feeling, and I try to recognize this when
Speaker 1: it comes in where you feel like you're being dragged
Speaker 1: around on the day, like by everything else. So you
Speaker 1: know your thoughts are dragging you around, your feelings at
Speaker 1: what somebody else did. So when I start feeling that
Speaker 1: dragged feeling, and often I reckon, this is the time
Speaker 1: where you go, well, I don't have time to meditate
Speaker 1: because I've got so much on, because I'm being dragged around.
Speaker 1: I remind myself, then that is the time you should
Speaker 1: just and you know what, I don't even know, Like
Speaker 1: I know, I feel a little bit like meditation was
Speaker 1: like a bit of a dirty word or something like
Speaker 1: like that. I used to cringe when people would say
Speaker 1: that word. Actually, so in my mind and I do,
Speaker 1: like I say, I start every day with meditation, but
Speaker 1: throughout the day, sometimes I will meditate, but sometimes I
Speaker 1: do just a little grounding for ten minutes or something
Speaker 1: like so it's just to get my breath back, remind
Speaker 1: myself that nothing's dragging me around. These things aren't happening
Speaker 1: to me. You know, stuff is just happening around, and
Speaker 1: I'm still here, and I'm still this centered person. I'm
Speaker 1: just choosing not to be there. That's very good, right.
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you about family in a few
Speaker 2: different ways in your book when you write about parenting.
Speaker 2: I love how you say I'm a good mom except
Speaker 2: when I'm not, because I'm like, yeah, me too. But
Speaker 2: I think that we're getting better at being kinder to
Speaker 2: ourselves about family and admitting that we're all human. What's
Speaker 2: your biggest sort of struggle in that in the being
Speaker 2: a good mom today box?
Speaker 1: You know what, I actually don't struggle with it heaps.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: I just go all right, you're just gonna make some
Speaker 1: bad mistakes and just own them when you do and
Speaker 1: try not to do it again next time. And I
Speaker 1: don't really beat myself up over it at all much anymore.
Speaker 1: But I did used to, and I think I think
Speaker 1: it was more See my kids. So I've got a
Speaker 1: twenty two year old who lives in Perth now and
Speaker 1: so you know, he don't need me no morepa grown up.
Speaker 1: So Talon is my eldest son. Then I've got a
Speaker 1: seventeen year old boy who is just finishing up year
Speaker 1: eleven at the moment, so he's about to go into
Speaker 1: year twelve. And then Poet is in high school, first
Speaker 1: year of high school, and she's twelve.
Speaker 2: You've got to range, and you've been doing it for
Speaker 2: a while.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I'm going out of now being in
Speaker 1: all high school. I actually feel a bit of a
Speaker 1: change from that, and I reckon that some of that
Speaker 1: is because in primary school you're so there's that thing
Speaker 1: of expectation of what mothers are supposed to be like
Speaker 1: in primary school and being so involved in every little
Speaker 1: thing and making sure that your kid is the cleanest
Speaker 1: kid going to school, which mine never was, you know,
Speaker 1: and all of those things. And I think you notice
Speaker 1: them more in primary school because you're more active, Like
Speaker 1: the parent has more of an active role in primary school.
Speaker 1: And I'm noticing that I'm letting God it a lot
Speaker 1: more because the kids are expected now to be doing
Speaker 1: a lot more stuff on their own. That and this
Speaker 1: is part of your independence, and the teachers even expect
Speaker 1: the kids to have more of a responsibility themselves. So
Speaker 1: I'm like, great, I don't have to do as much.
Speaker 2: I'm feeling the same way. My son is finishing primary
Speaker 2: school this year, my youngest, and I'm just like, oh wow,
Speaker 2: I've got all the way through primary school. That no
Speaker 2: more primary school, mom. Not that I was having very
Speaker 2: good at it, but what I wanted to ask you
Speaker 2: was watching them grow and your oldest obviously proper adult. Now,
Speaker 2: is that a beautiful pride? Is there a bit of
Speaker 2: nostalgia and sadness in it. How have you found the
Speaker 2: transition of mothering like children into adults?
Speaker 1: Love it? Love every second of it. It's the best.
Speaker 1: I just so when I say love every second of it,
Speaker 1: I mean like my approach to to watching it happen,
Speaker 1: not every second is good second. And it drives me
Speaker 1: fucking insane. So don't you know, like I'm not saying
Speaker 1: it's all great at all. You know, they're teenagers, so
Speaker 1: you know they do my head in sometimes, of course,
Speaker 1: you know. And and I was saying to someone the
Speaker 1: other day who's got one of my friends has got
Speaker 1: younger kids, and they were like, oh, I can't wait
Speaker 1: till you know your kids age. And I'm like, well
Speaker 1: it is. It is easier in some ways, but you
Speaker 1: just trade one worry for another, now, you know, so
Speaker 1: I do. There's still that because my middle child and
Speaker 1: my second son, Alo just got his peace the other day,
Speaker 1: so only a few weeks ago, and so he so now, well,
Speaker 1: my life used to be that I was just a
Speaker 1: taxi service for him because he loves surfing and skating
Speaker 1: and going out with his friends and all that, and
Speaker 1: it was just me dropping him everywhere. So that was
Speaker 1: my whole parenting life was that. Now I just sit
Speaker 1: at home worrying if he made it to where he
Speaker 1: wanted to go, you know, so it's just trading one
Speaker 1: worry for another.
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you about co parenting because obviously,
Speaker 2: as you said, you've been doing it for a long time,
Speaker 2: different ways. There'll be people listening to this who are
Speaker 2: co parenting. Have you got advice for them about how
Speaker 2: to make it work?
Speaker 1: Oh? Advice? I don't know about it. Just to take
Speaker 1: yourself out of it, you know. Is that you know,
Speaker 1: like when I was first going through breakups with both
Speaker 1: of my kids' fathers. You know, my eldest son is
Speaker 1: from a previous relationship, and then my other two are
Speaker 1: from my marriage. But if you mix your co parenting
Speaker 1: with your breakup, that is just destined to be shit,
Speaker 1: you know. Like so I think once my ex and
Speaker 1: I let the breakup be one thing over there and
Speaker 1: kept the co parent It's almost like we would have
Speaker 1: conversations about the kids where we'd be really friendly to
Speaker 1: each other and we'd be like, oh, yeah, cool, you
Speaker 1: know you, and then we'd talk about our stuff and
Speaker 1: we'd be like right, I mean'd get this real latitude
Speaker 1: or whatever. But at the very least. It's not like
Speaker 1: that anymore. Obviously we're years down the track now, but
Speaker 1: at the time, you know, at least we could separate
Speaker 1: them and you know, and that was really important. But
Speaker 1: I'm also extremely grateful that I have exes that were
Speaker 1: willing to do that. Not everyone has that. I also
Speaker 1: have a really amazing partner myself, and my ex has
Speaker 1: the most beautiful partner that if I could hand pick,
Speaker 1: you know, who my ex would end up with and
Speaker 1: my kids would have as a step parent, it would
Speaker 1: absolutely be just her, and she's the best. So I'm
Speaker 1: really lucky in that. But I don't know. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, I have a song on my new album
Speaker 1: that is a duet with my ex husband that is
Speaker 1: called the Divorce Song. His name, Shane Nicholson.
Speaker 2: Because you've played a lot of music together. That was
Speaker 2: a big part of your marriage and your relationship.
Speaker 1: We made records together, and we actually kind of say
Speaker 1: that that those records probably ended up being the demise
Speaker 1: of our marriage. Our second our last album we made
Speaker 1: together was called reck and Ruin, and then we got
Speaker 1: divorced not long after that, and we obviously went through
Speaker 1: our hard times and all of that. But then, you know,
Speaker 1: within these last few years, we've we've realized that we
Speaker 1: actually do divorce way better than we do marriage, and
Speaker 1: that's really where we shine. That's very was beautiful, and
Speaker 1: we wrote a song together called the Divorce Song basically
Speaker 1: about how we do that. But we are very supportive
Speaker 1: partners that are just amazing. So I'm very grateful, very grateful,
Speaker 1: because I know it's not all that easy. But I
Speaker 1: do think some of it is a bit more of
Speaker 1: a choice than what we convince ourselves that it is,
Speaker 1: because I went through that too, where you know, particularly
Speaker 1: after my divorce, I think I convinced myself that I
Speaker 1: was being as stand up and reasonable and adult as
Speaker 1: any person could be. And I look back now and
Speaker 1: I was a dickhead. No, I really was. I really was.
Speaker 1: But we just it's hard to be honest with ourselves
Speaker 1: when we're going through something hard and something painful.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people will resonate with that.
Speaker 2: Just on family. The last thing, Your parents come very
Speaker 2: vividly through this book, and I was wondering, I told
Speaker 2: you before we started that recently I interviewed your friends
Speaker 2: Vicker and Linda Bull, and one of the things that
Speaker 2: they talked about beautifully, like realizing their moving into the
Speaker 2: matriarch role in their families, like as they age and
Speaker 2: the parents are aging, you know, and finding ways and
Speaker 2: traditions to do that differently perhaps, but realizing that you're
Speaker 2: become the elders. You've got a chapter about embracing change
Speaker 2: and respecting traditions and stuff, But how are you finding
Speaker 2: that shift. You've talked about your parents and that they're
Speaker 2: still as free spirited as ever, but how is watching
Speaker 2: them age and supporting them through it?
Speaker 1: You know, it's I guess it's a bit different for
Speaker 1: me because I still work with my parents as well,
Speaker 1: so I actually think we have a bit of a
Speaker 1: different dynamic anyway. I mean at different times, Like my
Speaker 1: mom is really involved in helping out with my kids
Speaker 1: and things like that, you know, so she takes on
Speaker 1: this real grandmother role that she absolutely loves and my
Speaker 1: kids love, and it helps me out obviously, and it's
Speaker 1: a beautiful relationship to watch. And then my dad plays
Speaker 1: in my band as well, and he plays guitar in
Speaker 1: my band. He has for basically my whole career really,
Speaker 1: and so when we're out on the road, which is
Speaker 1: a lot of the time. We often travel together too,
Speaker 1: as in, you know, my partner and my kids and
Speaker 1: I will take our caravan and that, and then my
Speaker 1: dad and his family that he will take you know,
Speaker 1: his camper and blah blah. We travel a lot and
Speaker 1: go out into our back places and often meet up.
Speaker 2: And he can still do all that, like health wise
Speaker 2: and everything. He can still do all that.
Speaker 3: Oh totally.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's smashing it. He's like all over the play
Speaker 1: he travels more than me because when we come home
Speaker 1: off the road of him playing in my band, he
Speaker 1: then goes out and does his own gigs because he's
Speaker 1: got his own career as well. So he's smashing it.
Speaker 1: And then sometimes he might fly to a gig with
Speaker 1: the rest of my band or something. But I do
Speaker 1: we do it all in a caravan now and I
Speaker 1: love that. But we also when we're out on the road,
Speaker 1: I think my dad and I have a bit more
Speaker 1: of a bandmates kind of dynamic between us, and it's
Speaker 1: not so much about I've got my dad with me
Speaker 1: on the road and I've got to look after him
Speaker 1: or anything like that.
Speaker 3: That's good. That's good.
Speaker 2: And also if they're still so vivid and healthy, like
Speaker 2: that's it's such a gift.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And my mom sells all the merchandise for the
Speaker 1: tours and that that's her business. She does all of that.
Speaker 1: And my mom and dad are like really beautiful friends
Speaker 1: and have been for most of their divorce.
Speaker 2: There was a good model, very good and I yeah,
Speaker 2: they're a very good model of what you were just
Speaker 2: talking about.
Speaker 1: I probably should have said that at the start when
Speaker 1: you first started talking about co parenting. I learned how
Speaker 1: to co parent from my parents, you know, going through
Speaker 1: a divorce, and they were the same. They went through
Speaker 1: their hard times, of course, you know when you first
Speaker 1: get divorced in that, but then you know, it gets
Speaker 1: to a point where my parents showed me that a
Speaker 1: marriage breakdown doesn't have to be a family breakdown, and
Speaker 1: that was really important for me, you know, to see
Speaker 1: that in them and to see it actually work. So
Speaker 1: it wasn't just something people said on paper, like it
Speaker 1: wasn't just something a therapist said to you. I saw
Speaker 1: it and lived it every day and I continue to
Speaker 1: live it with my parents, and so I had no
Speaker 1: reason to think that it wouldn't work with my ex'es,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: So I want to go back to the book and
Speaker 2: talk about your definition of being a dickhead.
Speaker 3: List just couldn't I couldn't tell you.
Speaker 2: I could keep going all day, and then I want
Speaker 2: to hear all the songs and then anyway, you've got
Speaker 2: this list. I'm going to show it to you on
Speaker 2: our video here. You've got this list because at the
Speaker 2: top I've written this has inspired me to start my
Speaker 2: own list. But it's my definition of being a dickhead.
Speaker 2: And this very much looks like it was written in
Speaker 2: notes app and I appreciate that. Now we've talked about
Speaker 2: a lot of the things in this already, we've talked
Speaker 2: about the idea what you feel like you're being a
Speaker 2: dickhead when you and then these are all the different things.
Speaker 2: Think that being strong means being an asshole? Lose sight
Speaker 2: of my own boundaries. I actually wanted to ask you.
Speaker 2: Boundaries as a word that gets thrown around a lot,
Speaker 2: and I do think it's something that women and maybe
Speaker 2: midwomen really struggle with. Have you is that something that
Speaker 2: you've had to learn and get better at or is
Speaker 2: that something that you think was in you from your
Speaker 2: free spirited you?
Speaker 1: No, well, a bit of both. I think I had
Speaker 1: natural boundaries musically, so going into the music industry and
Speaker 1: not giving up my musical like what I felt like
Speaker 1: was me musically. I didn't really get talked into much
Speaker 1: early on, like when they would say somebody might say, oh, well,
Speaker 1: we want to remix this or re record this and
Speaker 1: make it sound all, you know, commercial and blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: I had boundaries. I didn't really buy into that at all,
Speaker 1: and I was quite happy to go, Nah, sorry, that
Speaker 1: doesn't really you know.
Speaker 2: Because you also have on this list that you're being
Speaker 2: a dickhead when you don't admit that you're wrong, which
Speaker 2: I also really like, and don't ask questions. I think
Speaker 2: that's so true, like because you know, there's you maintaining
Speaker 2: your like your value system of I'm not being a dickhead.
Speaker 2: But I'm sure you've had to spot a few dickheads
Speaker 2: in the music industry over the years.
Speaker 3: And that's always a sign.
Speaker 2: For me that someone's a dickhead is when they cannot
Speaker 2: admit that that wrong.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, and I get it. No one wants
Speaker 1: to it's a bit uncomfortable or whatever, but I actually reckon.
Speaker 1: One of the best lessons I've learned is to be
Speaker 1: able to tell my children that I messed up and
Speaker 1: I was wrong about that, because I just like it's
Speaker 1: almost like I used to say, oh, well, I can't
Speaker 1: admit to them that I'm wrong because that will make
Speaker 1: them lose faith in me. And it's kind of the opposite.
Speaker 1: You're teaching them that you can't admit that you're wrong
Speaker 1: when you are and if you know that you're wrong,
Speaker 1: then just say you're wrong, you know. And now I
Speaker 1: do it all the time. I'll just take the kids
Speaker 1: aside or something. I'll say, hey, I was wrong about
Speaker 1: that this morning. I shouldn't have reacted like that. I
Speaker 1: shouldn't have told you guys to do that. That was
Speaker 1: my own shit going on, and I'm sorry about that,
Speaker 1: and that it's okay to do that. And I do
Speaker 1: that heaps actually now. But I used to struggle with
Speaker 1: that because I kind of thought that that look like
Speaker 1: a weakness then to my children. But I really think
Speaker 1: it's the opposite that like teaching them to be able
Speaker 1: to just admit when you do shit wrong. That's a
Speaker 1: great thing, you know, because we're all going to get
Speaker 1: it wrong at times, and I think just owning that
Speaker 1: is really important.
Speaker 2: I think that's great parenting advice. You also have some
Speaker 2: things on here that are quite specific to you, Like
Speaker 2: you're a dickhead when you don't listen to Paul Kelly,
Speaker 2: although maybe we all are when we're not listening to
Speaker 2: Paul Kelly. And you're a dickhead when you cook with
Speaker 2: gluten free flower and expect it to turn out like
Speaker 2: normal flowers.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. But to close up, God, I put
Speaker 1: that one in there that is so true, and I
Speaker 1: still do it like I still I'll buy like a
Speaker 1: different brand and then I'll just go, no, this one's
Speaker 1: going to be different, and then everything will crumble apart.
Speaker 1: I'm not even gluten free. I don't even know what
Speaker 1: I'm bothering.
Speaker 2: The last thing I wanted to just ask you, because
Speaker 2: you've got, as I say, little lessons through the book
Speaker 2: live your own dreams, not someone else's. I think is
Speaker 2: a very powerful thing all the way through our lives.
Speaker 2: Because even now, as we talked about at the beginning,
Speaker 2: we've got a lot of shoulds. I should be like this,
Speaker 2: why and I like that? Do you feel like at
Speaker 2: this phase in your life, as you're releasing this new
Speaker 2: work and you're releasing this book, are you living your dream.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent, like daily, and not even just to
Speaker 1: do with my album and book coming out, even just
Speaker 1: the way that I'm living my life, the way that
Speaker 1: I'm touring, the way that I'm showing up to my
Speaker 1: children each day, like on little things. Because so, I
Speaker 1: mean in the book, that chapter is very much about living,
Speaker 1: you know, because I was I was flying all around
Speaker 1: the world and doing all these amazing big tours and
Speaker 1: big festivals and blah blah blah blah. I was flying everywhere,
Speaker 1: going into these beautiful airport lounges and living the most convenient,
Speaker 1: luxurious lifestyle that you could possibly ask for. And I
Speaker 1: know that a lot of musicians absolutely that would be
Speaker 1: their dream life. But then I just sat there there
Speaker 1: in that airport lounge one day and I went, hang
Speaker 1: on a minute, is this my dream life? I don't
Speaker 1: think this is setting my soul on fire. I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm missing out on calling into roadhouses and chatting
Speaker 1: to the locals on the way to my gig. I
Speaker 1: think I want to be able to take my kids
Speaker 1: to the swimming hole down the road, even if it
Speaker 1: goes against the flight schedule that we have made. You know,
Speaker 1: and I want to be able to go and play
Speaker 1: at the school out at an Aboriginal community and go
Speaker 1: and do that in between that gig and that gig
Speaker 1: instead of flying somewhere else or what. And I want
Speaker 1: to be able to do that. So I changed my
Speaker 1: whole lifestyle because I was like, what are the things
Speaker 1: that fill me up? And to be honest, it's not
Speaker 1: sitting in an airport lounge and I'm grateful. I'm not saying.
Speaker 3: It's okay, It's okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what I mean. I love not being ungrateful.
Speaker 1: I'm just going this is not my dream. It doesn't
Speaker 1: set my soul on fire. Sitting around a campfire playing
Speaker 1: music with my kids while they're playing guitar and I'm
Speaker 1: cooking in the camp oven. That sets my soul on fire.
Speaker 1: And so that's what my life is now. So I'm
Speaker 1: literally living my dream. But just on the other side
Speaker 1: of that, I think sometimes where we have this like
Speaker 1: we have a really clear view of our big dreams,
Speaker 1: but I also want to fulfill my little dreams throughout
Speaker 1: a day. And that is mainly of who I show
Speaker 1: up as every day. So who I show up as
Speaker 1: when I'm talking to my daughter, and no one is watching,
Speaker 1: and it's not on Instagram, My friends aren't around. And
Speaker 1: you know, this happened to me just the other day.
Speaker 1: I spoke to my daughter in a way where I
Speaker 1: was like, I was really cranky at her, and I
Speaker 1: can't remember what it was, but it was something she
Speaker 1: hadn't done. I was like, ah, I lost my shit.
Speaker 1: And then I remembered that she had a friend over
Speaker 1: right and her friend was there, and her friend would
Speaker 1: have heard me lose my shit, and I felt really bad.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, I can't talk to
Speaker 1: my daughter like that while her friend's over. And then
Speaker 1: I went, hang on a minute, why the fuck does
Speaker 1: that matter? You shouldn't talk to your daughter like that anyway.
Speaker 1: You know, if you can't do it in front of
Speaker 1: another person, then you shouldn't be doing it, you know.
Speaker 1: And look, it was no big deal. I'm sure I
Speaker 1: didn't scar her for life. Yeah, but talk about it
Speaker 1: in therapy one day. Fine, Fine, that's gotta.
Speaker 3: Give them something to talk about.
Speaker 2: But I think that's brilliant. And what you just said
Speaker 2: about your dream and the other people's dream, like, I've
Speaker 2: got goosebumps up and down my arm. I just it
Speaker 2: just resonates so much, and I can't thank you enough
Speaker 2: for your generosity. I can't thank you enough for writing
Speaker 2: this book and far out. I can't wait to hear
Speaker 2: the whole album like I can't.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you so much. This has been just the
Speaker 1: most soul feeling interview to sit here and talk to you. Well.
Speaker 2: When I finished that interview, I was driving straight back
Speaker 2: down the coast to where I lived, and I put
Speaker 2: on a Casey Chambers playlist and I leant into her unmistakable, unique,
Speaker 2: heartfelt songs all the way home, and I was busy
Speaker 2: with one of the pieces that I wrote down, thinking
Speaker 2: about that all the way home on the drive, reminding
Speaker 2: myself that this was my dream, my weird little yellow
Speaker 2: house by the river, and the veggie garden and the
Speaker 2: rider's shed and my dog and my kids and my
Speaker 2: elderly boyfriend.
Speaker 3: And it's not.
Speaker 2: Necessarily as sparkly a dream, a shiny and fancy dream,
Speaker 2: as many others, but it was mine and those dreams
Speaker 2: are none of my business. So that was the first
Speaker 2: piece of wisdom I wrote down. And if you've let
Speaker 2: go of all the stuff everyone told you should want,
Speaker 2: or you're in the process of doing that, you'll know
Speaker 2: why that bit of the conversation was so.
Speaker 3: Powerful for me.
Speaker 2: The other bit that I loved Casey's words about aging
Speaker 2: and how we see our faces and that question what
Speaker 2: if we're wrong? What if the smooth face of youth
Speaker 2: isn't beauty? Anyway, I'm not going to prosecute Casey's amazing
Speaker 2: words anymore, but I bloody love playing with that rebellious
Speaker 2: idea when I'm staring in the mirror blaming my gels.
Speaker 2: Casey's book and album, the album that goes with it,
Speaker 2: it's appropriately called Backbone, are available now and we're putting
Speaker 2: links in our show notes away you can get them
Speaker 2: to support this incredible Australian artist. And if you loved
Speaker 2: that chat, please scroll back and listen to my conversation
Speaker 2: with Gina Chick from a few weeks ago. These two women,
Speaker 2: I think, share a sort of particular spirit that makes
Speaker 2: me want to be braver and that makes me bounce
Speaker 2: out of those studios full of energy. And if you
Speaker 2: love the bit about beauty standards, maybe go and listen
Speaker 2: to my conversation with Ali Daddo called but what have
Speaker 2: you done to your face? It's the last episode of
Speaker 2: season two and we talk about all that stuff and
Speaker 2: if you love mid like, follow share, like all the
Speaker 2: young YouTubers say, it really does make a difference. Enormous
Speaker 2: thank you to my undickheaded team, my amazing epim A Brown,
Speaker 2: who had ms that sometimes she doesn't put the shopping
Speaker 2: trolley back. Ni, that is a dickhead move, but that's okay.
Speaker 2: We forgive you. Also our other producer, Charlie Blackman, who
Speaker 2: says that when she's being a dickhead, she starts talking
Speaker 2: in a British accent. Well that's good to know, Tarlie.
Speaker 2: I'll be looking up for that.
Speaker 1: Anna.
Speaker 2: Amazing audio production is by Tom Lyon, who says that
Speaker 2: sometimes his short attention span needs that he tunes out
Speaker 2: and someone will tell him something really profound and he'll
Speaker 2: just be like, oh yeah, cool, yeah, and that's his dickhead.
Speaker 2: Tell I promise you none of these people are dickheads.
Speaker 2: They work so hard on this wonderful show of ours,
Speaker 2: and we'll be back in your ears next week.