Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3: And I watched her have her friend over. They made candles,
Speaker 3: and then they made a cake, and then they made
Speaker 3: tea and also the skillet spaghetti. And I was like,
Speaker 3: if I went to a friend's house and they said
Speaker 3: let's go make some candles, I would say, I have
Speaker 3: diarrhea and I need to live because that is my idea.
Speaker 3: And you know what this is the types of people
Speaker 3: think some people love that.
Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia. Out loud, what
Speaker 2: women are actually talking about? On Wednesday, the fifth of March.
Speaker 2: I'm Hollywayn Wright and I'm speaking in.
Speaker 3: My b voice.
Speaker 1: I'm mea Friedman and my bacon brings all the boys
Speaker 1: to the yard.
Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens and I love birds song.
Speaker 2: If you don't know what we're talking about, then you
Speaker 2: didn't spend last night watching with Love Megan. They nearly
Speaker 2: got the title wrong. As Ever Megan, Yeah.
Speaker 1: As ever, We love Mergan. Montecito, Riviera, American Now.
Speaker 2: Anyway, sorry, we're already cracking ourselves up handle making flower
Speaker 2: sprinkles and that damn jam Welcome to Megan's world. We're
Speaker 2: getting to that. And a high school has banned mirrors
Speaker 2: in the kids' bathrooms. Some of us wonder if we
Speaker 2: could extend that band to the universe. Also, there's a
Speaker 2: cloud hanging over this season. That's Married at First Sight,
Speaker 2: that most watched ever and it's dB but first Mia.
Speaker 1: We couldn't start today's show without sending our love to
Speaker 1: all our out louders who are currently preparing for cyclone
Speaker 1: Alfred to hit southeastern Queensland and northeastern New South Wales.
Speaker 1: The warning zone extends from north of the Sunshine Coast
Speaker 1: all the way down to Yamber. Schools are closed today.
Speaker 1: Evacuation notices have been issued for several areas in Southeast Queensland.
Speaker 1: Panic buying has commenced. There are five hour lineups for sandbags.
Speaker 1: We've been speaking to out louders in Brisbane this morning.
Speaker 1: There are lines going down the street at bakeries and
Speaker 1: for basic supplies. A lot of supermarket shelves are bere
Speaker 1: and of course North Queenslanders are experienced with these kinds
Speaker 1: of natural disasters, but for Brisbane people it might be
Speaker 1: their first time. So I'm told that region or Queenslanders
Speaker 1: are offering some great advice to people in Brisbane who
Speaker 1: themselves have some real PTSD about fear of their houses
Speaker 1: flooding again for those who experienced that last time. And look,
Speaker 1: the city is built on a floodplain, so it is
Speaker 1: part of Brisbane's history. But that doesn't make it easy.
Speaker 1: So our hearts go out to you. Queensland is pulled
Speaker 1: together really well in a crisis. We know that, and
Speaker 1: more than four million people are currently in the impact
Speaker 1: zone potentially, and it must be such a scary time.
Speaker 2: And the waiting too. As we're recording this now, obviously
Speaker 2: it's the waiting period and we're just sending so much
Speaker 2: love and hopefully a little bit of distraction.
Speaker 4: The biggest thing is keeping the low tone to talk
Speaker 4: in our b voice.
Speaker 2: That's a fool. It is so heavy, the weight of
Speaker 2: the honey, you know what it is.
Speaker 4: It's like also that reminder to do something that scares
Speaker 4: your movement.
Speaker 1: I think that's part of it.
Speaker 4: Like I'm trying to stay in the phone of it
Speaker 4: because it's beautiful.
Speaker 2: To be disconnected.
Speaker 4: It's not my perfume that's bringing them all in My
Speaker 4: bacon brings all the boys.
Speaker 1: Megan marcle has eaten Jack in the box and loves
Speaker 1: funny too.
Speaker 4: Do you keep saying, Megan Markle, you know I'm Sussex.
Speaker 4: Now you have kids and you go no, I share
Speaker 4: my name with my children.
Speaker 1: Yes, and that feels so.
Speaker 4: I didn't know how meaningful it would be to me,
Speaker 4: but it just means so much to see where our
Speaker 4: rainbow is coming together here. And you don't have to
Speaker 4: do a big platter of this. You could do this
Speaker 4: with one small row for your kids for breakfast, genuinely,
Speaker 4: and it makes the morning alone are fun. It's real
Speaker 4: delight in being able to be a present parent, and
Speaker 4: it's a luxury sometimes because we all have to work,
Speaker 4: we all have a.
Speaker 2: Lot of stuff to do.
Speaker 4: But when you can take a minute to.
Speaker 1: Just starting, Meg, and I want to ask about your luke?
Speaker 1: Who your luke?
Speaker 4: Your luck?
Speaker 3: Megan?
Speaker 5: Oh, my luke?
Speaker 2: Your Luke?
Speaker 1: Did I not say it right? I don't know. I
Speaker 1: mean we're cooler than I am. I don't know what
Speaker 1: you're talking my luke.
Speaker 2: My look, she likes my luke. Welcome to Megan's World,
Speaker 2: where every guest gets a personalized bees wax candle, you're
Speaker 2: always fishing flower pedals out of your drinks and crew
Speaker 2: de taye plates are a much mentioned thing. When was
Speaker 2: the last time you thought about a crew to tay plate?
Speaker 2: What is to vegetables on a plate to dip in stuff?
Speaker 2: They feature in almost every episode that I've watched of
Speaker 2: Megan's show. They're a big deal.
Speaker 1: Smell the home.
Speaker 2: Cut flowers, sip the blood orange mimosa, and keep back
Speaker 2: in tasteful neutrals. While we get to our review of
Speaker 2: With Love Megan, but before we do, we need to
Speaker 2: talk a little bit about the complexities of discussing one
Speaker 2: of the most discussed women in the world. Megan Sussex
Speaker 2: as we now know she's called, and we will get
Speaker 2: to that in a minute of why she's called. That
Speaker 2: definitely attracts a level of vitriol that is usually reserved
Speaker 2: for psychopaths, c criminals, murderers. There is no question about that,
Speaker 2: and the level of shit that this woman endures, particularly
Speaker 2: on social media, but also in the legacy media, who
Speaker 2: have various beefs with her husband and who sued a
Speaker 2: lot of them, and in the comments section of absolutely
Speaker 2: everything is entirely disproportionate. To anything that Megan might have
Speaker 2: in inverted commas done.
Speaker 3: And it's underpinned with a tone of racism and sexism
Speaker 3: question entirely unnecessary, and that.
Speaker 1: Can make it really hard because it means that any
Speaker 1: not even legitimate commentary, but discussion about her that's anything
Speaker 1: other than favorable. It's like going to a protest and
Speaker 1: finding yourself next to someone with a sign you really
Speaker 1: think is awful and going, oh, no, I'm protesting this issue,
Speaker 1: but I don't want to be associated.
Speaker 3: With those It's not on your team.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I don't want to be with the
Speaker 1: racists and the misogynists who attack Megan, the peers Morgan
Speaker 1: of it all. But then are we just unrelentingly positive
Speaker 1: if that doesn't feel real either.
Speaker 2: I think we should be allowed to take the piss
Speaker 2: out of what is unquestionably one of the most entertainingly
Speaker 2: nonsense television shows that we've seen in a while, Like
Speaker 2: it's not dangerous or harmful, like this TV show, like
Speaker 2: it's it's lovely, but we're allowed to point out that
Speaker 2: it's a little bit ridiculous without I think, jumping into
Speaker 2: a pit of Megan hate, which I certainly and I know,
Speaker 2: none of us want to add to that. It's so
Speaker 2: toxic and so awful. It doesn't matter. This show could
Speaker 2: have been the most incredible thing that ever happened on TV.
Speaker 2: You could predict what all the headlines were going to say.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Freens, didn't matter what she put out.
Speaker 3: I am Meghan Markle's defender on this show, okay, yes,
Speaker 3: And I wanted to love this. I wanted I pressed
Speaker 3: play and I went, come on, Megan. Who doesn't love
Speaker 3: a cake, a candle and a fruit platter.
Speaker 1: We all love it, especially when the fruit platter is
Speaker 1: in the colors of the rainbow.
Speaker 3: I mean, what could go wrong? There were moments where
Speaker 3: I was holding my hand over my mouth in shock.
Speaker 1: It's about what I watched.
Speaker 2: I want to just tell everybody what the format is
Speaker 2: in case they didn't watch it, because some people didn't
Speaker 2: put themselves through it or enjoy it. As the case,
Speaker 2: maybe the format is a guest, not a very famous guest,
Speaker 2: which is one of the things that I'm interested in,
Speaker 2: but usually one of Megan's mates or someone she admires
Speaker 2: comes to a pretend house. There's no shade in that.
Speaker 2: Because very few of the lifestyle shows that we Watch
Speaker 2: and Consume are ever filmed in somebody's real house or
Speaker 2: certainly the host.
Speaker 1: Real housing shows are never filmed in almost It is.
Speaker 2: A little bit disappointing that it's not a bit more believable.
Speaker 2: And she declares in the first episode, in the first
Speaker 2: ten minutes, this is not my house, up and down
Speaker 2: to this place, because so much of it is about
Speaker 2: her home, her life, her vibe. You're a little bit like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'd love to see your real garden.
Speaker 1: But anyway, she does film in her real garden. So
Speaker 1: the bits where she's in that picking a lot of
Speaker 1: the beds, not all of them, but some of the ones,
Speaker 1: like when she's picking berries and stuff, Apparently that is
Speaker 1: in her garden and it's her real I haven't seen
Speaker 1: the chickens yet. I'm only up to episode three, the
Speaker 1: chickens and the bees, so there are a good well
Speaker 1: that's her bees.
Speaker 2: It would have to be right, because the garden is
Speaker 2: so beautiful it makes you want to cry. I also
Speaker 2: want to know you might know this if that's her
Speaker 2: real view with the mountains, because that's the best view
Speaker 2: I've ever seen her view. Anyway, the people come over
Speaker 2: to the pretend house and they do things together like
Speaker 2: make fried chicken cakes, rainbow fruit platters, make jam et cetera,
Speaker 2: and they chat while they're doing it. Right as you say, Jesse,
Speaker 2: I too very much wanted to love it because I'm
Speaker 2: team Meghan. I found it hard to not criticize any
Speaker 2: of it. But I've worked really hard to find five
Speaker 2: positive things about it. Should we discuss some of them?
Speaker 2: Because I know you agree.
Speaker 1: I want to just say firstly what I thought of it,
Speaker 1: because I was a bit like, I'm a bit the
Speaker 1: black hat when it comes to Meghan. I am reputationally
Speaker 1: without louders. I'm seen as someone who's very critical of her.
Speaker 1: I did not have that same reaction when I watched
Speaker 1: the first episode. I found it in the way that
Speaker 1: those shows can be that are on like the Lifestyle
Speaker 1: Channel or you know, Nigella, just quite soothing. There have
Speaker 1: been times in my life where I've really got quite
Speaker 1: involved in them in that they're just lovely, pleasant, white
Speaker 1: background noise. And we talk a lot about the New
Speaker 1: Cycle being so horrible at the moment that sometimes it
Speaker 1: is nice to just retreat into a world where making
Speaker 1: a gift bag for a child's birthday party is your
Speaker 1: whole purpose, your whole purpose.
Speaker 3: It's opened with Meghan making bath salts for her friend
Speaker 3: who is staying in her guest room, and she says,
Speaker 3: you always want someone who's staying in your guest cottage
Speaker 3: to know how much you've thought of them. And I thought,
Speaker 3: that's the most unrelatable shit I have ever heard in
Speaker 3: my life. She was like, you want obviously a moment at.
Speaker 1: The bedside table was moments moment who.
Speaker 3: Has a guest? Secondly who has a bedside table? Thirdly
Speaker 3: who has a bathroom for their guests?
Speaker 1: I don't like people staying at the house.
Speaker 2: This gets to one of the very big things about
Speaker 2: it is relatability what Meghan's going for, because no, I
Speaker 2: don't think it is no.
Speaker 3: But what I found I'm going to use the word
Speaker 3: insufferable about it is that I like lifestyle shows. Right. So,
Speaker 3: Martha Stewart's stick is that she is a self described perfectionist,
Speaker 3: and she owns that, and there's something quite self aware
Speaker 3: about it. Meghan won't acknowledge that she's a perfectionist. She
Speaker 3: keeps saying it doesn't have to be perfect. The other
Speaker 3: thing I like about lifestyle shows is that while they
Speaker 3: cook or while they potter, we learn things about their lives.
Speaker 2: That's usually the format.
Speaker 3: That's the format is that there's something quite revealing about
Speaker 3: who that person is or what they think. There is
Speaker 3: none of that the depth of the conversation. The only
Speaker 3: place it goes to is Meghan saying to her friend,
Speaker 3: do you like tomatoes? Who doesn't like tomatoes? They're making
Speaker 3: a pasta and then they go and make.
Speaker 1: I liked that pasta. It was like, why I would
Speaker 1: like to it past He right? So I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is interesting. I'm actually learning things. I wrote down
Speaker 1: a list of the things that I learned in this
Speaker 1: show list. Yes, yes, I stopped writing down things after
Speaker 1: a while because there was a lot of things that
Speaker 1: I will never do.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: It's a bit like watching porn. You can go, well,
Speaker 1: that's interesting, but I'll never do that. But it's interesting
Speaker 1: to watch things go in different holes. I was like,
Speaker 1: it's interesting to see someone make bath salts from scratch,
Speaker 1: or someone pop corn with a dried corn, thing like
Speaker 1: stuff I would never do. But it did feel quite
Speaker 1: soothing in a way. Some other things that I learned
Speaker 1: is how to harvest honey. That's when she was talking
Speaker 1: in the clip that we had about the bees and bees.
Speaker 3: Do you think that how to harvest honey and like
Speaker 3: how she still needs a beekeeper year on is a
Speaker 3: relatable life hack.
Speaker 1: No, but I don't think these shows are relatable necessarily
Speaker 1: because I also learned that you can get wax. If
Speaker 1: you don't have your own bee harvest hive, you can
Speaker 1: get wax from your local beekeeper. She did mention that.
Speaker 3: Where's our local beekeeper? Because I I'd have to go I.
Speaker 1: Had I learned how to make a local beekeeper. So,
Speaker 1: you know, people, you know what, celebrities aren't meant to
Speaker 1: be like us. They're not like Megan Markle is royal.
Speaker 1: We would be kind of disappointed if she was.
Speaker 3: Just she's actually not.
Speaker 1: In her tracks and she is royal. Will you talk
Speaker 1: about the sussex things?
Speaker 2: Explain that one of the things I learned is about
Speaker 2: the sussexness of it all. You said there isn't revealing stuff.
Speaker 2: There is definitely revealing stuff in this It's just you
Speaker 2: have to work quite hard for it because it's.
Speaker 1: Not later Also, she stopped after the first episode.
Speaker 2: The second one is Mandy Kayling and that was my
Speaker 2: favorite so far. Mindy Kayling good friend of Megan. They've
Speaker 2: already been on a show together on the podcast comes
Speaker 2: around with their mom friends. Apparently there's a lot of
Speaker 2: mommy in episode two. That's why you have to watch it, Jesse,
Speaker 2: because it's aimed at you and her second birthday party.
Speaker 1: Many Kayling is very glam like. She comes over wearing
Speaker 1: double denim with a Valentino belt and very big fake
Speaker 1: eyelashes and more hair and makeup than I saw her
Speaker 1: wear at the Oscars. So I thought that was interesting.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's the vibe, right, because what I
Speaker 2: quite liked about Mindy is she was very clearly like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, I'm going to Megan Michael's house, even
Speaker 2: though she wasn't going to Mega michaels house, and she
Speaker 2: kept saying that, and that's why Meghan had to say
Speaker 2: but I thought with a little point, like a little
Speaker 2: bit of like, oh, you know what I mean, because
Speaker 2: if you're a famous person, you don't really want people
Speaker 2: keeping saying like, oh my god, you're so famous. And
Speaker 2: that's why Meghan then goes, it's so funny that you
Speaker 2: keep calling me Megan Michaels. She didn't mean funny. She
Speaker 2: said that she meant annoying, she met annoying, but she
Speaker 2: was being polite. She said, because I'm Sussex. Now now
Speaker 2: what she means by that? And then she said, obviously
Speaker 2: not relatable to me that you have to have the
Speaker 2: same name as your children, otherwise you're not a unit.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, well that leaves all of us in
Speaker 2: quite a lot of trouble. But anyway, yeah, anyway, the
Speaker 2: reason she's a Sussex now is Harry's official surname, Like
Speaker 2: as in, if he had an official surname but it
Speaker 2: was Windsor, it's Mount Batton, Windsor, right, that's' official surname.
Speaker 2: But royals, very often the surname is their title. So
Speaker 2: when Harry was at school, he was known as Harry Wales.
Speaker 2: When he was in the army, he was known as
Speaker 2: whatever rank he was Wales, right, William Wales. That's the
Speaker 2: way it works. So now that his title is Sussex,
Speaker 2: the Duke of Sussex, Sussex is kind of like his
Speaker 2: surname now, so Harry Sussex, Megan Sussex, but Sussex. So
Speaker 2: that's how it works. So it's very much a royal
Speaker 2: thing that they've taken on, so she is still royal.
Speaker 1: What would be cool is if she was just called
Speaker 1: Meghan Sussex.
Speaker 3: Then, because even in the Executive Producer it's the first
Speaker 3: name that comes up. Is But I couldn't get through
Speaker 3: more than one. And I watched her have her friend over.
Speaker 3: They wanted to gossip like anyone does, but they couldn't.
Speaker 3: So he said things like, your peas look like pearls,
Speaker 3: actual green peas, and then they made candles, and then
Speaker 3: they made a cake, and then they made tea and
Speaker 3: also the skillet spaghetti. And I was like, if I
Speaker 3: went to a friend's house and they said let's go
Speaker 3: make some candles, I would say, I have diarrhea and
Speaker 3: I need to live, because that is my idea. And
Speaker 3: you know what, this is the types of people thing.
Speaker 3: Some people love that. But there was something in the
Speaker 3: tone as well that I felt was like when I
Speaker 3: take lunar to a craft class where the teacher's going
Speaker 3: and now get your paddle pop stick and put it
Speaker 3: here that she was speaking to her friend like that.
Speaker 2: In one of my uncharitable moments, I did write in
Speaker 2: my notes because I was taking notes. Obviously, if Megan
Speaker 2: was in my mother's group, I would fake a seizure
Speaker 2: and leave. And that's only because not because of her.
Speaker 2: But that second episode that was about hosting a child's
Speaker 2: birthday party triggered me, like I know that it did.
Speaker 2: In the group chat, you turned it that I turned,
Speaker 2: I wrote, I have turned because.
Speaker 1: You announced your turning.
Speaker 2: I am out of that phase of parenting now my
Speaker 2: kids are teenagers. I found that very stressful. She uses
Speaker 2: hostessing as a verbal lot like hostessing never stops. Hostessing
Speaker 2: demands a lot of it. I am a terrible hostess,
Speaker 2: and anyone who cuts their which is in the little
Speaker 2: star shapes immediately triggers me. Never mind the balloon art stop.
Speaker 2: But in that episode two I did learn something that
Speaker 2: I think is quite profound, right because I kept wondering
Speaker 2: why she's the friend clearly when Daniel comes over in
Speaker 2: the first episode that you saw, she's clearly the friend
Speaker 2: who goes you look tired. I'm going to run you
Speaker 2: a bath and make you some tea for your allergies
Speaker 2: right now. Sometimes you love that friend, and other times
Speaker 2: you want to throttle that friend because you're like, you're controlling.
Speaker 1: What do you mean I look tired, bitch?
Speaker 2: I'm working hard. But anyway, in the second episode, because
Speaker 2: I kept thinking, why does she want to look after
Speaker 2: everyone so much? And why is she so obsessed with
Speaker 2: everything being beautiful? And in sad episode, she talks to
Speaker 2: me and nikayling about the tacos and how when she
Speaker 2: was a kid, and Mindy says, did you eat like
Speaker 2: this growing up? So she's talking about her veggie cru
Speaker 2: to tape platters and arrange the kids love. Yeah, that
Speaker 2: the kids love also triggered me. I am with vegetables
Speaker 2: and children. My children have never knowingly eaten the vegetables. Still, anyway,
Speaker 2: she says, No, I was a latch key kid, she said,
Speaker 2: and I ate a lot of fast food. She came home,
Speaker 2: she put a microwave meal and they did a plate
Speaker 2: and ate alone because she had two very busy working
Speaker 2: divorced parents and no one was making her crew to
Speaker 2: tape plates. And so I think that one of the
Speaker 2: things that's really interesting there is an insight about Megan.
Speaker 2: She knows that the greatest privilege of having money really
Speaker 2: is that you can spend our times and she said
Speaker 2: that quite a few times.
Speaker 1: And you can spend time making them waffles for breakfast, setting,
Speaker 1: and I.
Speaker 2: Think she's you know, she's clearly knows that, is self
Speaker 2: aware enough to know that, and she's leaning into it
Speaker 2: in a big way.
Speaker 3: Can I ask you, Holly, what your five positives were?
Speaker 3: I have one positive. My one positive is that she
Speaker 3: has beautiful handwriting, a lot of writing.
Speaker 1: Labels, and beautiful nails, very gorgeous hands. She could be handed.
Speaker 2: I did admire the money. Yeah right, she actually looks
Speaker 2: amazing full stop. As we've already discussed, the food is
Speaker 2: good and not that complicated, That pasta dish fantastic.
Speaker 3: I meant that I want that recipe and the.
Speaker 1: Quick except you can't because it isn't anywhere that did.
Speaker 2: We have to address this at a later day. I
Speaker 2: want to know, Mia, why you can't get all the recipes.
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because you would think the logical tie
Speaker 1: in if you were walking in the shoes of your audience,
Speaker 1: is you then click and go to the website and
Speaker 1: it shows you step by step how to do the
Speaker 1: balloon arch, how to make the bath salts, you know,
Speaker 1: how to make the little Lady Bug chrostini, all of
Speaker 1: those things, and they could just use steals from the
Speaker 1: filming of the show the recipes because I couldn't follow
Speaker 1: all of that. I'm up to episode three where they're
Speaker 1: making fried chicken and there are so many steps and
Speaker 1: there's brining and all of these things, and not that
Speaker 1: I'm ever going to make it anyway, but if you
Speaker 1: wanted to, you couldn't, So that was surprising.
Speaker 2: Another positive for me is that she's clearly on the
Speaker 2: sash she's a health nut, but she still offers boos
Speaker 2: at kids parties, which is something I approve of very much,
Speaker 2: and she at least pretends to drink the beer left
Speaker 2: over from that Brian for the fried chicken. So she's
Speaker 2: like kind of trying to show you.
Speaker 1: I'm a good time.
Speaker 2: I'm a good time. I also liked and I learned,
Speaker 2: and I was like positives that she shares a good fortune.
Speaker 2: So Daniel in that first episode, who's a makeup artist,
Speaker 2: who makes the point in a funny moment that where
Speaker 2: she's like, you and your boyfriend could just sit at
Speaker 2: the counter and eat this, and he's like, there's no
Speaker 2: counter in my New York compartment. Queen like he looked
Speaker 2: like he'd had a rainbow shot up his bum when
Speaker 2: he was sitting on that amazing deck, and he's like,
Speaker 2: I like staying in your guest cottage and going home
Speaker 2: with all my free dab like she on the A
Speaker 2: club's doing that for people, which I thought was really nice.
Speaker 1: What's interesting is also I was just enchanted by what
Speaker 1: she was wearing to cook and you know people are
Speaker 1: going to deconstruct this, and so you wouldn't cook them.
Speaker 1: It's like, of course, television's not real. Television shows aren't real.
Speaker 1: You don't have a whole crew there. There's a crew
Speaker 1: of eighty. Because she was asked in a People magazine
Speaker 1: interview why she didn't shoot at home, and she said, look,
Speaker 1: my home is my sanctuary, which I completely understand when
Speaker 1: you're that much in the public eye. And she said,
Speaker 1: and also there was you know, when you've got a
Speaker 1: crew of eighty, that's a lot of people to have
Speaker 1: in one house, and it's very disruptive. And I understood that.
Speaker 1: But I think what she did achieve because what I
Speaker 1: liked about it was it got to show Megan being
Speaker 1: what she clearly loves doing. So sometimes people go a
Speaker 1: whited blah blah do this reality show? The reason that
Speaker 1: most people give for doing reality shows or interviews is
Speaker 1: that they just want to be understood for who they are,
Speaker 1: and they feel that the public has the wrong idea
Speaker 1: about that.
Speaker 3: I think that's what this project.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think what it allowed her to be
Speaker 1: publicly is what her friends, she says repeatedly, know her
Speaker 1: to be privately, which is fun, easy going, nurturing, loves
Speaker 1: a crew, to tap, plate, crafty, all of those things,
Speaker 1: instead of being under siege, complaining about the royal family, traumatized, racism,
Speaker 1: all of that very negative narrative which set in really
Speaker 1: fast after she do that crib shift will work, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I do, because I think in the same way that
Speaker 1: you were saying, you like that she's on Instagram now.
Speaker 1: I think that when you flood the zone, if we've
Speaker 1: learned nothing from Donald Trump, it's this, when you flood
Speaker 1: the zone with content, the only way to change the
Speaker 1: conversation is to start a new conversation. And this show
Speaker 1: is a new conversation. And if we've all said stopped complaining,
Speaker 1: it's not complaining it. Yeah.
Speaker 3: But I think that the problem is probably that the
Speaker 3: show is dull and that it's not going to have traction.
Speaker 3: I don't think it's going to have the kind of
Speaker 3: viral traction that she would have wanted, and what we
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 1: She wants to be viral. I think she wants to
Speaker 1: be dull, like the Tig was dull. Her lifestyle website
Speaker 1: was dull. It rubs maybe inoffensive, yeah, it.
Speaker 3: Rubs against maybe an Australian sensibility in that what it
Speaker 3: appears to be is eight episodes of having friends come
Speaker 3: to your house and really talk to Meghan about how
Speaker 3: great she is, and go, Meghan, oh my goodness.
Speaker 1: I can't believe I'm in your hand.
Speaker 3: I can't believe you're so beautiful. Look at this amazing cake.
Speaker 3: Blah blah blah, which might have happened, but in an edit,
Speaker 3: I go just as a viewer, I don't find that
Speaker 3: particularly interesting. Sometimes you interview someone in this job and
Speaker 3: they come in and you do a bit of gushing.
Speaker 3: You cut that no one wants to hear it. But
Speaker 3: this show, to me is fifty percent gushing, which I
Speaker 3: don't find particularly insightful. So I'm stopping at one. I
Speaker 3: don't think I can do it. Please, I will watch Lindy.
Speaker 3: I'll watch Mindy, but I need to know if you
Speaker 3: two are going to finish the series.
Speaker 1: I am when I'm looking for something inoffensive kind of
Speaker 1: background noise. It's a great second screen show where you
Speaker 1: can look up every so often and go this person
Speaker 1: who's been this enigma for what almost ten years now,
Speaker 1: and there's all this drama and gossip. You can just
Speaker 1: see her living a life.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yes, I will. When the recipes come, I will
Speaker 2: be definitely trying to cook some things. I'm already gonna
Speaker 2: make quickles this weekend because I'm sad like that. And
Speaker 2: the last thing is for everything, quick pickles, quick pickles.
Speaker 1: For those who haven't watched that episode.
Speaker 2: Everybody who is wondering where is the jam today? The
Speaker 2: jams on the website, I can't buite look at it though,
Speaker 2: And and no one who has watched the first two
Speaker 2: episodes of that will be surprised to hear this flower sprinkles.
Speaker 1: You know what. I'm off to find my local beekeeper.
Speaker 3: In a moment. Why one school is banning mirrors in
Speaker 3: case you missed it, A new trend is starting to
Speaker 3: really piss off the hairdressers. And you don't want to
Speaker 3: piss off a hairdresser. They have scissors and they can
Speaker 3: give your pocket if they're in the mood. According to
Speaker 3: a story in the Washington Post, in the last six months,
Speaker 3: some hairdressers have seen a sharp increase in clients presenting
Speaker 3: with AI images when asking for color or cut. The image,
Speaker 3: which is maybe sourced from Pinterest or Instagram, is flawless,
Speaker 3: the hair is too glossy, cut is too perfect, and
Speaker 3: the hairdresser has to say, not.
Speaker 1: Possible on actual hair that looks a lot better than.
Speaker 3: Yours, exactly. And the same is apparently happening with wedding dresses.
Speaker 3: So people come in and show a photo of a
Speaker 3: floor length gown with no back, no size leaves, and
Speaker 3: drap fronts like that defies the laws of physics, and
Speaker 3: we can't make it.
Speaker 1: And I think look to be fair. This is what
Speaker 1: I've always said about body image and why retouching in
Speaker 1: the days of magazines and now using filters and face
Speaker 1: tune is so messed up because you don't know that
Speaker 1: what you're looking at doesn't exist. But when you are
Speaker 1: looking at it and then looking at yourself in the mirror,
Speaker 1: whether you realize it or not, you're subliminally comparing yourself
Speaker 1: to something that actually doesn't exist.
Speaker 3: And experts can tell because even like wedding planners that
Speaker 3: they'll be shown a venue or a table set and
Speaker 3: they'll go that is not real. That is basically a cartoon.
Speaker 3: People are coming into their plastic surgeons with artificially generated bodies. Holly,
Speaker 3: is this really that different to the time you took
Speaker 3: in a photo of Lara Bingal and said, can you
Speaker 3: make me look like this?
Speaker 2: I was only thinking about that the amount of times
Speaker 2: have taken in a photo that might as well have
Speaker 2: been AI and in its relation to my actual head
Speaker 2: humorous Bridget Bardot, I'd like to look like this. Please,
Speaker 2: good luck to hale. Hair is not going to do it. Yes,
Speaker 2: it's exactly like that, and I just think we can
Speaker 2: all dream. But an honest hairdresser is a great gift.
Speaker 3: First, some schools band phones, but one school in the
Speaker 3: UK has put a new ban in place that has
Speaker 3: sparked a very lively debate. William Farr Church of England
Speaker 3: Comprehensive School in Lincolnshire has just banned mirrors, according to
Speaker 3: an article in the Sydney Morning Herald, because they were
Speaker 3: concerned by the amount of time students were spending in
Speaker 3: bathrooms looking at themselves. The head master says the decision
Speaker 3: was made to reduce distractions during school hours, particularly between lessons,
Speaker 3: as students were often late to class.
Speaker 1: Is this the girls on the boys toilets?
Speaker 3: It did say, I think it's a co ed school.
Speaker 2: At school because it's comprehensive and so that means it's
Speaker 2: a public school. But I think, breathing between the lines,
Speaker 2: I think it's the girls.
Speaker 3: Interesting because they did say if students need a mirror
Speaker 3: for medical purposes, they are entitled to ask reception.
Speaker 1: What medical purposes?
Speaker 3: Well, good question. One woman said about her daughter that
Speaker 3: she has contact lenses and braces, so she needs a mirror.
Speaker 3: What if she needs to take her contact lenses out?
Speaker 4: What then?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: Yeah, But another mom said that's quite specific. Yeah it is,
Speaker 3: And I think that's a medical purpose, so you would just,
Speaker 3: you know, go to the office and say I need
Speaker 3: a hand. One mom said though that she was actually
Speaker 3: really supportive of it, and she likes that her daughter
Speaker 3: can't go in and check herself out all the time
Speaker 3: and maybe she'll start getting to class on time. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I've heard this happening at another school where people were
Speaker 1: going in and filming tiktoks and they were going in
Speaker 1: and looking at themselves for a long time, and then
Speaker 1: filming tiktoks at school, and it was disruptive because the
Speaker 1: people who actually had to go to the toilet could
Speaker 1: never get in because it was too busy.
Speaker 2: Was part of that.
Speaker 1: What's interesting A lot of people will assume that this
Speaker 1: is just girls, but what you know if you've got
Speaker 1: teenage boys, is that for a lot of teenage boys,
Speaker 1: they get to this age it's I think it's around
Speaker 1: fourteen fifteen where they suddenly become transfixed with their reflection
Speaker 1: and they cannot see a reflective surface without stopping and
Speaker 1: looking at themselves in it and often flexing. And my
Speaker 1: reasoning for why both teenage girls and boys spend such
Speaker 1: a long time looking in the mirror is that when
Speaker 1: you go through puberty, you change so dramatically, and you know,
Speaker 1: you go from child to young adult essentially, and it
Speaker 1: takes a while for your mind to catch up with
Speaker 1: how you look, and so I think it's about adjusting
Speaker 1: to that. Oh my god, is that me? I mean
Speaker 1: I remember being a little kid and looking at my
Speaker 1: shadow at the beach and seeing that my waist went
Speaker 1: in and being absolutely transfixed.
Speaker 3: It's a fixture of adolescence, the kind of come looking
Speaker 3: at yourself.
Speaker 2: Honestly, I'm not going to throw row any members of
Speaker 2: my family under the bus, but I've spent quite a
Speaker 2: lot of time around fifteen year old girls. They are
Speaker 2: looking at themselves too fucking much all the time. It's changed,
Speaker 2: though it has always been the case to a point.
Speaker 2: But the reason that they're looking at themselves so much
Speaker 2: is because they've never been more surveyed. They have grown
Speaker 2: up looking at their faces in their phone cameras and
Speaker 2: looking at other women's faces in their phone cameras in
Speaker 2: a way that none of.
Speaker 1: Us ever did.
Speaker 2: And they are understandably, completely understandably completely obsessed with what
Speaker 2: they look like. And so they're endless looking in the mirror,
Speaker 2: putting on your makeup, lip gluss, lip gloss off. It's normal,
Speaker 2: it's teenagery. In my opinion, it is getting more and
Speaker 2: more intense for very understandable reasons that are not their fault.
Speaker 1: But I hate it.
Speaker 2: If I could remove all the mirrors from my house,
Speaker 2: I would. I remember Zady Smith, she's a famous British author,
Speaker 2: made a lot of headlines a few years ago for
Speaker 2: saying that she had given her teenage daughter as a band.
Speaker 2: No time limit of how long they're allowed to look
Speaker 2: in the mirror, and a lot of people were outrage.
Speaker 2: I think it was fifteen minutes. It was still a
Speaker 2: long time, right, And she said, this is fifteen minutes
Speaker 2: that you are spending that your brother is not. This
Speaker 2: is time that you are spending staring at yourself and
Speaker 2: fiddling with your face and doing all the stuff that
Speaker 2: the boys are not. Now, I know you see your
Speaker 2: point mere about the transfixed with their appearance, but they're
Speaker 2: not grooming in there for hours and hours. And I
Speaker 2: think we need a little bit of good old fashioned
Speaker 2: stop obsessing about what you look like. But then maybe
Speaker 2: that's just a glimpse into my house.
Speaker 3: I vividly remember being fourteen, and this was before Instagram
Speaker 3: and Facebook and phones. People didn't know if they had anything.
Speaker 3: They had a kind of nockier thing with snake on it.
Speaker 3: But I remember there were some classrooms that had a
Speaker 3: mirror and the girls you couldn't focus because they would
Speaker 3: look at themselves, they'd pull a face, they would redo
Speaker 3: hair up. Well, I'm reading, and then there was this
Speaker 3: big mirror like above the bubblers and above, and the
Speaker 3: fixation on appearance was such a part of my high
Speaker 3: school experience, and I went through probably about two years
Speaker 3: between fourteen and sixteen, where I did not look in
Speaker 3: a mirror. I would brush my teeth in the morning,
Speaker 3: eyes down, I would avoid a mirror at all costs.
Speaker 3: I hated it because if you avoid a mirror, you
Speaker 3: can live in a world where your face doesn't exist,
Speaker 3: and it's great. And I was deeply I was filled
Speaker 3: with self loathing. Was a lot why I didn't want
Speaker 3: to look in the mirror. I didn't like what my
Speaker 3: skin looked like, in my braces and all of the things.
Speaker 3: If the mirrors had been a mirror, it's healthy. I
Speaker 3: don't know if it's particularly healthy to.
Speaker 2: Aspire to, but I think because I know a lot
Speaker 2: of women at the other end of their lives who
Speaker 2: do the same, a lot of older women who go,
Speaker 2: I'm just not doing mirrors anymore for the same reason.
Speaker 2: They're like, it's too confronting, it's stop setting. I don't
Speaker 2: conform to the standards. What's the point? And that living
Speaker 2: in a world where you don't have to think about
Speaker 2: it is liberating because extreme.
Speaker 3: Ultimately it doesn't matter. And I had to keep telling myself.
Speaker 1: That's fourteen, but it's okay.
Speaker 3: It shouldn't matter, of course.
Speaker 1: So there's the way the world should be, and there's
Speaker 1: the way the world is. And given that we live
Speaker 1: in a world where women's appearances are weaponized against us,
Speaker 1: they're monetized by ourselves, by other people, to pretend that
Speaker 1: isn't the case, and to say, the whole world's telling
Speaker 1: you this, but you've got to pretend like they're not
Speaker 1: and not look in a mirror when a girl is
Speaker 1: really you know, at that age, you're also you're right,
Speaker 1: You're starting to realize that you are being perceived by
Speaker 1: others and you need to sort of close that gap
Speaker 1: between how you perceive yourself and how you are being
Speaker 1: perceived by other people, and looking in a mirror is
Speaker 1: the only way to do that.
Speaker 3: I think it's a brave, bold move from a school,
Speaker 3: And what are schools if not trying to imbue certain
Speaker 3: values into you. Do we just accept that people live
Speaker 3: on their smartphones, that people are being perceived, that girls
Speaker 3: at twelve are putting makeup on and doing tiktoks like
Speaker 3: that's why schools go, we're not wearing makeup.
Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good idea
Speaker 1: that the schools are doing. Yeah, I like in the
Speaker 1: same way as phones. It's nice to have lay in
Speaker 1: your work, but it's also nice to have a place
Speaker 1: in your life a few hours off from being perceived
Speaker 1: from thinking about how you look. I absolutely support that,
Speaker 1: But I think to say girls shouldn't look at themselves
Speaker 1: in the mirror is just not really.
Speaker 2: But I don't think it shouldn't look at it. I
Speaker 2: don't think you shouldn't look at yourself in the mirror
Speaker 2: at all. Although I totally relate to what Jesse is
Speaker 2: saying about how freeing it is, but just the amount
Speaker 2: of time and energy, because of course you have to
Speaker 2: deal with the way the world is. But if we
Speaker 2: ever want to change the world, you have to question
Speaker 2: the way the world is. And it's getting worse, not better.
Speaker 2: It's one of my points about this, right is that
Speaker 2: we might be more empowered in so many ways, and
Speaker 2: women have more choices in so many ways, but the
Speaker 2: fixation on appearance, because of.
Speaker 1: The forward facing phone and.
Speaker 2: The and all of those things, and social media is
Speaker 2: getting worse and worse and worse. And I remember so
Speaker 2: clearly my daughter when she was about twelve. Then I'd
Speaker 2: always said to it doesn't matter what you look like.
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter what you look like. And she did
Speaker 2: a me or and she was right. Gave me a
Speaker 2: reality check one day. But Mum, it's all anyone actually
Speaker 2: cares about, and that's heartbreaking.
Speaker 1: But I just don't think think you should shame girls
Speaker 1: or boys for looking in the mirror. Oh I do,
Speaker 1: because I used to. Have you been watching the latest
Speaker 1: season of Married at First Sight? Full disclosure, We have
Speaker 1: not been, but we know so many of you have
Speaker 1: and discussing it in the out Louders Facebook group and
Speaker 1: on our socials. And the reason why we're talking about
Speaker 1: it today is because it has jumped from being a
Speaker 1: reality TV story into the zeitgeist and now the news cycle,
Speaker 1: and also because it's become a story about domestic violence
Speaker 1: and coercive control. But before we discuss whether reality TV
Speaker 1: is the right place to showcase serious issues like this,
Speaker 1: we needed an explainer about what has actually happened on
Speaker 1: the show. So we've invited someone who knows everything about
Speaker 1: this topic. Tina Burke. Muma me is pop culture and
Speaker 1: social editor to people who know nothing about it, which
Speaker 1: is the three of us so we know some things
Speaker 1: about it, we need to know a little bit more. Tina,
Speaker 1: can you tell us, firstly, for the people who really
Speaker 1: know nothing, how does maths work? What's the basic premise.
Speaker 5: I'm so jealous of anyone who doesn't know how maths works.
Speaker 5: But the basic premise is that a panel of three
Speaker 5: love experts, like qualified in various different areas, pull together
Speaker 5: a bunch of total strangers who first meet on their
Speaker 5: wedding days. In Australia it's not a legal wedding day,
Speaker 5: but in other countries it is. So they have their
Speaker 5: fake wedding and then they spend either weeks or up
Speaker 5: to three months in an experiment basically simulating what it
Speaker 5: would be like to be.
Speaker 1: In a relationship.
Speaker 3: Can you explain, because I've watched pretty much every season
Speaker 3: up until now, but I've seen a lot of headlines
Speaker 3: and commentary about a man named Adrian. What has happened
Speaker 3: on the show? Why is he kind of so front
Speaker 3: and center this season?
Speaker 5: So Adrian has been paired with a fena, and so
Speaker 5: their match has been basically one of the most controversial
Speaker 5: so far this season. They were pretty much just matched
Speaker 5: together because they're twins. Like no one can see any
Speaker 5: other reason that they they're not twins. Sorry, they're both
Speaker 5: in sets of twins, twins both twin and that was
Speaker 5: the only reason they were matched. There's no other thing.
Speaker 3: It does feel a bit married at first sight. To
Speaker 3: match twins with each other and be like, prank you're
Speaker 3: married anyway.
Speaker 5: Would have been good TV, but scary TV. But so
Speaker 5: they were matched together. She's a single mother, so she's
Speaker 5: quite like earnestly they're looking for love. And then he's
Speaker 5: made it quite clear that he just wants to be famous,
Speaker 5: as most mass contestants do. And you know, they say
Speaker 5: they've got a good connection, that they've had some loving moments,
Speaker 5: but we've obviously only seen the negative.
Speaker 1: To what's the drama with him is basically.
Speaker 5: That he's coming across very controlling in the way that
Speaker 5: he is behaving towards a femurs. So his behavior has
Speaker 5: been called out by viewers. He's kind of said things like,
Speaker 5: don't tell the experts this when we go in, like,
Speaker 5: don't tell the other contestants that I said this to you.
Speaker 5: And he's also doing things that kind of make her,
Speaker 5: in very small ways, seem a little bit crazy.
Speaker 1: So they'll be.
Speaker 5: Having a conversation and she's talking at a normal volume
Speaker 5: and he'll be like, stop yelling, stop screaming.
Speaker 3: And was there a background before he came on the show.
Speaker 5: Yes, So obviously the thing that happens is that they
Speaker 5: get paired. They go through all of these background checks,
Speaker 5: and in around August last year we found out like
Speaker 5: who was matched through paparazzi photos and things like that.
Speaker 5: So when that did happen, someone who knew of his
Speaker 5: past emailed EndemolShine and they kind of.
Speaker 1: Said that the Channel nine.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so they emailed them. They said that they were
Speaker 5: concerned about the fact that he had had a past
Speaker 5: of domestic abuse charges. But he was found not guilty
Speaker 5: of those charges. So in twenty twenty one, he was
Speaker 5: dismissed in a New South Wales court for assault occasionally
Speaker 5: actual bodily harm, domestic violence, common assault and resisting police
Speaker 5: and that was to do with an ex partner who
Speaker 5: he lived with. But yeah, he was found not guilty.
Speaker 1: So the producers, when they discovered this and when it
Speaker 1: came out publicly said that they don't do police checks.
Speaker 1: They do very basic background checks. But I would have
Speaker 1: assumed even a Google search probably could have come up
Speaker 1: with that that was surprising to hear. But it's actually
Speaker 1: not this story that has been in the news. It's
Speaker 1: another couple and a guy called Paul. Yes.
Speaker 5: So Paul and Karina have kind of been the Cinderella
Speaker 5: love story of the season. They're the ones that everyone
Speaker 5: really loves. They're very happy, and then last week we
Speaker 5: opened up an episode with them having a very serious
Speaker 5: conversation about the fact that he had punched a hole
Speaker 5: in the door after they'd gotten into an argument in
Speaker 5: front of another couple. So they were in an Uba
Speaker 5: and song came on the radio and Caarina says, oh
Speaker 5: I previously slept with the rapper of this song. And
Speaker 5: then when they get home, they have an argument and
Speaker 5: he punches a hole in the wall, and then they're
Speaker 5: separated for the night by the producers.
Speaker 1: So does that then play out the next day in
Speaker 1: front of this panel of relationship experts.
Speaker 5: So they kind of were reunited the next day. They
Speaker 5: had a dinner party first where all the contestants kind
Speaker 5: of weigh in on this very serious topic, and then
Speaker 5: they did have the commitment ceremony, which is in front
Speaker 5: of all of the experts. So that is where they
Speaker 5: were called out for the behavior, and.
Speaker 1: That's what Chill said. I felt disrespected, Yeah.
Speaker 5: And so throughout even at the dinner party. In their
Speaker 5: first conversation, he kind of yoged between like I feel ashamed,
Speaker 5: but also like I was just angry and I had emotions,
Speaker 5: and like he doesn't really take responsibility and he does
Speaker 5: try to sneak back onto Karna the stutus of this.
Speaker 1: Police are now involved, Is that right?
Speaker 5: Yes, so police are investigating along with Safe Work because
Speaker 5: obviously this is an incident between coworkers.
Speaker 3: And what did the show actually do. Did it provide
Speaker 3: a therapist? Did it provide the opportunity for either of them?
Speaker 1: Was he ab to leave?
Speaker 5: So he wasn't asked to leave, but he was put
Speaker 5: on notice. So he was explained that, like, if he
Speaker 5: wanted to move forward in the experiment, he has to
Speaker 5: do counseling to ensure that he doesn't let himself do
Speaker 5: it again. Was she offered counseling, Not that we know of,
Speaker 5: but they do say that they have counseling available to everybody.
Speaker 5: She was kind of explained to by the experts that,
Speaker 5: like this was deeply troubling because she was defending his
Speaker 5: actions in front of the experts and saying we're European
Speaker 5: and they kind of said, that's not a justification.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I wanted to just ask you one final question
Speaker 1: about the dynamics, because even though the women are free
Speaker 1: to leave or end, as you say, the experiment, if
Speaker 1: they don't like their partner or they're concerned about their behavior,
Speaker 1: that would then mean the end of their time on
Speaker 1: the show, right and the end of their what opportunity
Speaker 1: to win something become more famous.
Speaker 5: Yes, So obviously this season we did have someone quit
Speaker 5: in like their honeymoon phase, and they were allowed to return.
Speaker 5: But for the most part, if you quit the show,
Speaker 5: you don't get to come back. So most people have
Speaker 5: quit their jobs. They've obviously come on here because they
Speaker 5: see what it can do for you and the success
Speaker 5: that you can have. So if you leave the show,
Speaker 5: it does mean that you're cutting down your screen time
Speaker 5: and like how much the public gets to see if
Speaker 5: you and fall in love with you because.
Speaker 1: You can turn into an influencer and have can you
Speaker 1: have a lucrative career or is that just the carrot
Speaker 1: that's dangled.
Speaker 5: I think it's for most of them, just the carrot
Speaker 5: that's dangled. They might get a few years of like
Speaker 5: influencer deals and Instagram ads, but for the most part,
Speaker 5: with the exception of maybe Jules Robinson and Martha Kelleftitis,
Speaker 5: there's not many mass contestants who've turned it into something
Speaker 5: long term.
Speaker 1: That's incredibly helpful infam Currently, both couples are still on
Speaker 1: the show. Yes, both are still investigating. Yes, yeah, after
Speaker 1: the break we will unpack whether but reality TV is
Speaker 1: the right place for those kinds of issues to be discussed.
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
Speaker 2: at the show notes to get us in your ears
Speaker 2: five days a week. And a huge thank you to
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers.
Speaker 1: That was really interesting what Tina explained. And I'm of
Speaker 1: two minds because the argument can be made that this
Speaker 1: should not be glamorized normalized by being on reality TV,
Speaker 1: or that it's exploited if But on the other hand,
Speaker 1: is it a teachable moment? Is it good to highlight
Speaker 1: how bad this behavior is?
Speaker 3: There are a few issues at play. I think because
Speaker 3: I look at this and my friends who are watching it,
Speaker 3: the overwhelming question seems to be shouldn't Paul have just
Speaker 3: been let go? I mean, any act of violence on
Speaker 3: reality television, It's like, can we just.
Speaker 1: Pause the guy that punched the walls? Yes, the guy
Speaker 1: that had charge.
Speaker 3: I think the context as well for punching the wall
Speaker 3: was that that was her way out of the room,
Speaker 3: so there was something kind of doubly threatening about it,
Speaker 3: and like watching that in context.
Speaker 1: It's incredibly threatening.
Speaker 3: It's an incredibly threatening thing to do. It is escalating,
Speaker 3: you know, it is an act of violence to have
Speaker 3: someone It's really really menacing. And I would look at
Speaker 3: that and go all right, especially in a country that
Speaker 3: has the domestic violence epidemic that we do, can we
Speaker 3: just draw a really firm line on this? To be clear,
Speaker 3: this show has a dubious history with contestants who have
Speaker 3: been accused of certain crimes, like there are examples of that.
Speaker 3: On the other hand, there are particular forms of abuse,
Speaker 3: emotional coercive control, psychological abuse that are almost impossible to explain.
Speaker 3: And when you sit with your girlfriends and you say
Speaker 3: it's just this argument and he says, I'm yelling, but
Speaker 3: I don't think like it sounds.
Speaker 1: So I used to have those conversations in my head.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't even say them to a girlfriend because I'd
Speaker 1: feel crazy.
Speaker 3: And where do we see them? We don't because they
Speaker 3: happen behind closed doors. This television show is one of
Speaker 3: the most watched television shows ever created in Australia. Right
Speaker 3: there are millions of people watching this. When you have
Speaker 3: a country all looking in the same direction, is this
Speaker 3: holding up a mirror and going here are the real
Speaker 3: nuances and the early red flags and the early red
Speaker 3: flags of a complicated, toxic relationship that not only do
Speaker 3: you get to see it and go when I see
Speaker 3: someone else in that, I don't like it. You're sitting
Speaker 3: on the couch going, oh, all right, this is maybe
Speaker 3: not so normal. The experts over the years, they used
Speaker 3: to kind of just watch and not intervene so much.
Speaker 3: Over the years they've started to intervene a little bit
Speaker 3: more and provide more commentary. Even mel Schilling, who's one
Speaker 3: of their psychologists, she's now on a podcast with Elizabeth Days.
Speaker 3: I've been elevated as someone who who can give real
Speaker 3: relationship advice. I think they've got better at calling it
Speaker 3: out and going that is not appropriate. That is not
Speaker 3: how you behave see that thing you did, don't do that.
Speaker 3: So is there some couples or some behaviors that are
Speaker 3: being held to account that we might not see otherwise, Holly,
Speaker 3: is that a ridiculous position.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's a ridiculous position because I think
Speaker 2: one of the reasons why people like this show is
Speaker 2: it reflects the very messy nature of a lot of
Speaker 2: human relationships that don't always go exactly you know by
Speaker 2: the book, Like he said something disrespectful to me. I
Speaker 2: left him immediately, Like that's not how a lot of
Speaker 2: relationships go. And I know exactly why people really like that.
Speaker 2: But I am intensely irritated by the fact that New
Speaker 2: South Wales Police, who get four hundred domestic violence calls
Speaker 2: every single day and now investigating an incident on a
Speaker 2: ridiculous television show where people deliberately cast men with anger
Speaker 2: issues and put them in situations that will trigger those
Speaker 2: anger issues for drama and ratings, because at the end
Speaker 2: of the day, married at first sight for all of
Speaker 2: it's like this is an experiment, it is a ratings machine.
Speaker 2: They do this deliberately. We have talked a million times
Speaker 2: about how you need drama and conflict, and drama and
Speaker 2: conflict in relationships can be kind of innocent. You know,
Speaker 2: did he say my bumbluck being in these pants? But
Speaker 2: they're not that that could even not be innocent in
Speaker 2: this situation, or it could be cheating, or it could
Speaker 2: be whatever. But domestic violence surely has to be a
Speaker 2: line that we don't cross just for ratings, because we
Speaker 2: can talk about teachable moments. But the problem is these
Speaker 2: men are being rewarded, they're being made famous, they're being
Speaker 2: displayed as being hot and exciting. The whole reason why Adrian,
Speaker 2: who should never have been cast. I mean, I know
Speaker 2: that he was cleared of those charges, but that still
Speaker 2: seems like a very dangerous choice for producers to then
Speaker 2: put him with a young single mother who has a
Speaker 2: young child. That still seems like a dangerous choice. Right,
Speaker 2: He should never have been cast. And the reason that
Speaker 2: they cast him is because they knew there would be drama,
Speaker 2: they knew there would be excitement. They're hoping it wouldn't
Speaker 2: be dangerous drama and criminal drama. But it's deliberately stoking
Speaker 2: this And that's the thing that I find really hard
Speaker 2: about this show is it's disingenuousness because I watch it
Speaker 2: sometimes I sit with my friend at the beginning and
Speaker 2: Adrian comes in and we go, oh, he seems like
Speaker 2: a nice guy, or actually, you don't, do you go
Speaker 2: he seems like a troubled dude. In the first five minutes.
Speaker 2: I wonder what he's like. The producers know what he's like.
Speaker 2: They know all these things. They know exactly who they're
Speaker 2: putting with, who and why. So teachable moments maybe, but
Speaker 2: also dangerous manipulation, rewarding bad behavior.
Speaker 1: Yes, well you say rewarding bad behavior or is he
Speaker 1: being held accountable publicly shamed? Like that stuff's not happening
Speaker 1: behind closed doors, because if it was, I know that.
Speaker 1: When I was in an emotionally abusive relationship, I didn't
Speaker 1: have the words for it. I thought it was just
Speaker 1: me and him. I didn't know about coercid control or
Speaker 1: gas lighting or any of those things. If I'd have
Speaker 1: seen it reflected on a TV show, that would have
Speaker 1: been a game changer for me.
Speaker 2: I get that, and I think it's a really valid point.
Speaker 2: But let's just remember what happens after this, Like these
Speaker 2: guys then become you know, they're going to nightclub openings.
Speaker 2: They're low level influencers. There's an only fans career waiting
Speaker 2: for you. There are people on the show and off
Speaker 2: the show debating whether or not they're good dudes, whether
Speaker 2: or not that's okay, Well.
Speaker 1: You know what you're getting if you date them?
Speaker 2: Oh do you that?
Speaker 3: I do think as well. With reality TV, in order
Speaker 3: for it to keep growing, it needs to escalate. So
Speaker 3: it started. It was quite innocent the first season, and
Speaker 3: then we went to a cheating scandal, and then there
Speaker 3: needed to be two cheating scandals. And now you can
Speaker 3: set your watch to it and go, all right, it's
Speaker 3: episode three, where are the seeds of a cheating scandal?
Speaker 3: We shouldn't be surprised that this is escalated to New
Speaker 3: South Wales police because where else is there to go?
Speaker 1: Imagine, imagine you said those police. It must just be like, really,
Speaker 1: you think that's bad for the show, bad for the
Speaker 1: show's brand, or just well the real is more advertising.
Speaker 3: It's great for the ratings. Were talking about it, Yeah,
Speaker 3: the ratings are just growing and growing. So the commentary
Speaker 3: will continue, the feminist commentary or the commentary about the ethics.
Speaker 3: But the reality is that every season gets bigger and
Speaker 3: bigger and bigger, So why would you wind it down.
Speaker 2: If you do not approve and you think it's dangerous,
Speaker 2: don't watch it. There is only one thing you can do.
Speaker 2: Vote with your wallet, and your wallet, in this case,
Speaker 2: your eyeballs.
Speaker 3: I know for some particularly women who are watching this,
Speaker 3: it's been really confronting because you might recognize some of
Speaker 3: the behavior. So we have some resources in our show notes.
Speaker 3: You can call one eight hundred respect or for other resources,
Speaker 3: just look at our show notes.
Speaker 2: That's it for our show today.
Speaker 1: Gosh, it was big.
Speaker 2: It's a big show. It was a great show, great show.
Speaker 1: It was a goodtual. We were outstanding. I think it
Speaker 1: was one of our best as a podcast.
Speaker 2: As Megan's mimosas, That's what I wanted to know. She
Speaker 2: was using very posh champagne for those mimosas.
Speaker 1: By the way, she one.
Speaker 2: Of knows you use crap prosecco for mimosas and you
Speaker 2: use really good champagne if people are actually drinking the champagne.
Speaker 1: You, meganis you know? Had it made this show better?
Speaker 1: Some sprinkled flowers.
Speaker 2: A massive thank you to all of you out loud
Speaker 2: as for being here with us, and we'll be back
Speaker 2: in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 1: But if you are looking for a little bit of
Speaker 1: Oscars goss, we did a subscriber episode with a full debrief,
Speaker 1: including an honestory cap of the Red Carpet, Adrian Brodie's
Speaker 1: obnoxiously long speech, and Demi Moore's really bad night. A
Speaker 1: linkers always will be in the show notes. Bye bye.
Speaker 3: Shout out to any Mum and MEA subscribers listening. If
Speaker 3: you love the show and you want to support us,
Speaker 3: subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very best way to
Speaker 3: do so. There's a link in the episode description.