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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: And I watched her have her friend over. They made candles,

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Speaker 3: and then they made a cake, and then they made

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Speaker 3: tea and also the skillet spaghetti. And I was like,

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Speaker 3: if I went to a friend's house and they said

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Speaker 3: let's go make some candles, I would say, I have

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Speaker 3: diarrhea and I need to live because that is my idea.

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Speaker 3: And you know what this is the types of people

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Speaker 3: think some people love that.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia. Out loud, what

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Speaker 2: women are actually talking about? On Wednesday, the fifth of March.

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Speaker 2: I'm Hollywayn Wright and I'm speaking in.

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Speaker 3: My b voice.

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Speaker 1: I'm mea Friedman and my bacon brings all the boys

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Speaker 1: to the yard.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens and I love birds song.

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Speaker 2: If you don't know what we're talking about, then you

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Speaker 2: didn't spend last night watching with Love Megan. They nearly

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Speaker 2: got the title wrong. As Ever Megan, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: As ever, We love Mergan. Montecito, Riviera, American Now.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, sorry, we're already cracking ourselves up handle making flower

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Speaker 2: sprinkles and that damn jam Welcome to Megan's world. We're

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Speaker 2: getting to that. And a high school has banned mirrors

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Speaker 2: in the kids' bathrooms. Some of us wonder if we

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Speaker 2: could extend that band to the universe. Also, there's a

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Speaker 2: cloud hanging over this season. That's Married at First Sight,

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Speaker 2: that most watched ever and it's dB but first Mia.

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Speaker 1: We couldn't start today's show without sending our love to

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Speaker 1: all our out louders who are currently preparing for cyclone

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Speaker 1: Alfred to hit southeastern Queensland and northeastern New South Wales.

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Speaker 1: The warning zone extends from north of the Sunshine Coast

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Speaker 1: all the way down to Yamber. Schools are closed today.

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Speaker 1: Evacuation notices have been issued for several areas in Southeast Queensland.

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Speaker 1: Panic buying has commenced. There are five hour lineups for sandbags.

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Speaker 1: We've been speaking to out louders in Brisbane this morning.

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Speaker 1: There are lines going down the street at bakeries and

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Speaker 1: for basic supplies. A lot of supermarket shelves are bere

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Speaker 1: and of course North Queenslanders are experienced with these kinds

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Speaker 1: of natural disasters, but for Brisbane people it might be

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Speaker 1: their first time. So I'm told that region or Queenslanders

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Speaker 1: are offering some great advice to people in Brisbane who

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Speaker 1: themselves have some real PTSD about fear of their houses

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Speaker 1: flooding again for those who experienced that last time. And look,

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Speaker 1: the city is built on a floodplain, so it is

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Speaker 1: part of Brisbane's history. But that doesn't make it easy.

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Speaker 1: So our hearts go out to you. Queensland is pulled

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Speaker 1: together really well in a crisis. We know that, and

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Speaker 1: more than four million people are currently in the impact

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Speaker 1: zone potentially, and it must be such a scary time.

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Speaker 2: And the waiting too. As we're recording this now, obviously

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Speaker 2: it's the waiting period and we're just sending so much

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Speaker 2: love and hopefully a little bit of distraction.

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Speaker 4: The biggest thing is keeping the low tone to talk

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Speaker 4: in our b voice.

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Speaker 2: That's a fool. It is so heavy, the weight of

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Speaker 2: the honey, you know what it is.

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Speaker 4: It's like also that reminder to do something that scares

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Speaker 4: your movement.

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Speaker 1: I think that's part of it.

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Speaker 4: Like I'm trying to stay in the phone of it

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Speaker 4: because it's beautiful.

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Speaker 2: To be disconnected.

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Speaker 4: It's not my perfume that's bringing them all in My

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Speaker 4: bacon brings all the boys.

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Speaker 1: Megan marcle has eaten Jack in the box and loves

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Speaker 1: funny too.

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Speaker 4: Do you keep saying, Megan Markle, you know I'm Sussex.

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Speaker 4: Now you have kids and you go no, I share

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Speaker 4: my name with my children.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and that feels so.

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Speaker 4: I didn't know how meaningful it would be to me,

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Speaker 4: but it just means so much to see where our

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Speaker 4: rainbow is coming together here. And you don't have to

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Speaker 4: do a big platter of this. You could do this

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Speaker 4: with one small row for your kids for breakfast, genuinely,

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Speaker 4: and it makes the morning alone are fun. It's real

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Speaker 4: delight in being able to be a present parent, and

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Speaker 4: it's a luxury sometimes because we all have to work,

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Speaker 4: we all have a.

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Speaker 2: Lot of stuff to do.

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Speaker 4: But when you can take a minute to.

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Speaker 1: Just starting, Meg, and I want to ask about your luke?

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Speaker 1: Who your luke?

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Speaker 4: Your luck?

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Speaker 3: Megan?

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Speaker 5: Oh, my luke?

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Speaker 2: Your Luke?

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Speaker 1: Did I not say it right? I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: mean we're cooler than I am. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: you're talking my luke.

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Speaker 2: My look, she likes my luke. Welcome to Megan's World,

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Speaker 2: where every guest gets a personalized bees wax candle, you're

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Speaker 2: always fishing flower pedals out of your drinks and crew

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Speaker 2: de taye plates are a much mentioned thing. When was

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Speaker 2: the last time you thought about a crew to tay plate?

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Speaker 2: What is to vegetables on a plate to dip in stuff?

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Speaker 2: They feature in almost every episode that I've watched of

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Speaker 2: Megan's show. They're a big deal.

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Speaker 1: Smell the home.

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Speaker 2: Cut flowers, sip the blood orange mimosa, and keep back

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Speaker 2: in tasteful neutrals. While we get to our review of

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Speaker 2: With Love Megan, but before we do, we need to

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Speaker 2: talk a little bit about the complexities of discussing one

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Speaker 2: of the most discussed women in the world. Megan Sussex

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Speaker 2: as we now know she's called, and we will get

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Speaker 2: to that in a minute of why she's called. That

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Speaker 2: definitely attracts a level of vitriol that is usually reserved

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Speaker 2: for psychopaths, c criminals, murderers. There is no question about that,

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Speaker 2: and the level of shit that this woman endures, particularly

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Speaker 2: on social media, but also in the legacy media, who

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Speaker 2: have various beefs with her husband and who sued a

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Speaker 2: lot of them, and in the comments section of absolutely

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Speaker 2: everything is entirely disproportionate. To anything that Megan might have

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Speaker 2: in inverted commas done.

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Speaker 3: And it's underpinned with a tone of racism and sexism

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Speaker 3: question entirely unnecessary, and that.

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Speaker 1: Can make it really hard because it means that any

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Speaker 1: not even legitimate commentary, but discussion about her that's anything

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Speaker 1: other than favorable. It's like going to a protest and

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Speaker 1: finding yourself next to someone with a sign you really

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Speaker 1: think is awful and going, oh, no, I'm protesting this issue,

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Speaker 1: but I don't want to be associated.

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Speaker 3: With those It's not on your team.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I don't want to be with the

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Speaker 1: racists and the misogynists who attack Megan, the peers Morgan

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Speaker 1: of it all. But then are we just unrelentingly positive

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Speaker 1: if that doesn't feel real either.

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Speaker 2: I think we should be allowed to take the piss

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Speaker 2: out of what is unquestionably one of the most entertainingly

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Speaker 2: nonsense television shows that we've seen in a while, Like

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Speaker 2: it's not dangerous or harmful, like this TV show, like

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Speaker 2: it's it's lovely, but we're allowed to point out that

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Speaker 2: it's a little bit ridiculous without I think, jumping into

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Speaker 2: a pit of Megan hate, which I certainly and I know,

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Speaker 2: none of us want to add to that. It's so

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Speaker 2: toxic and so awful. It doesn't matter. This show could

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Speaker 2: have been the most incredible thing that ever happened on TV.

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Speaker 2: You could predict what all the headlines were going to say.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Freens, didn't matter what she put out.

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Speaker 3: I am Meghan Markle's defender on this show, okay, yes,

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Speaker 3: And I wanted to love this. I wanted I pressed

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Speaker 3: play and I went, come on, Megan. Who doesn't love

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Speaker 3: a cake, a candle and a fruit platter.

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Speaker 1: We all love it, especially when the fruit platter is

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Speaker 1: in the colors of the rainbow.

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Speaker 3: I mean, what could go wrong? There were moments where

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Speaker 3: I was holding my hand over my mouth in shock.

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Speaker 1: It's about what I watched.

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Speaker 2: I want to just tell everybody what the format is

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Speaker 2: in case they didn't watch it, because some people didn't

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Speaker 2: put themselves through it or enjoy it. As the case,

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Speaker 2: maybe the format is a guest, not a very famous guest,

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Speaker 2: which is one of the things that I'm interested in,

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Speaker 2: but usually one of Megan's mates or someone she admires

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Speaker 2: comes to a pretend house. There's no shade in that.

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Speaker 2: Because very few of the lifestyle shows that we Watch

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Speaker 2: and Consume are ever filmed in somebody's real house or

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Speaker 2: certainly the host.

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Speaker 1: Real housing shows are never filmed in almost It is.

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Speaker 2: A little bit disappointing that it's not a bit more believable.

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Speaker 2: And she declares in the first episode, in the first

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Speaker 2: ten minutes, this is not my house, up and down

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Speaker 2: to this place, because so much of it is about

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Speaker 2: her home, her life, her vibe. You're a little bit like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'd love to see your real garden.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, she does film in her real garden. So

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Speaker 1: the bits where she's in that picking a lot of

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Speaker 1: the beds, not all of them, but some of the ones,

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Speaker 1: like when she's picking berries and stuff, Apparently that is

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Speaker 1: in her garden and it's her real I haven't seen

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Speaker 1: the chickens yet. I'm only up to episode three, the

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Speaker 1: chickens and the bees, so there are a good well

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Speaker 1: that's her bees.

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Speaker 2: It would have to be right, because the garden is

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Speaker 2: so beautiful it makes you want to cry. I also

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Speaker 2: want to know you might know this if that's her

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Speaker 2: real view with the mountains, because that's the best view

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Speaker 2: I've ever seen her view. Anyway, the people come over

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Speaker 2: to the pretend house and they do things together like

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Speaker 2: make fried chicken cakes, rainbow fruit platters, make jam et cetera,

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Speaker 2: and they chat while they're doing it. Right as you say, Jesse,

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Speaker 2: I too very much wanted to love it because I'm

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Speaker 2: team Meghan. I found it hard to not criticize any

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Speaker 2: of it. But I've worked really hard to find five

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Speaker 2: positive things about it. Should we discuss some of them?

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Speaker 2: Because I know you agree.

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Speaker 1: I want to just say firstly what I thought of it,

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Speaker 1: because I was a bit like, I'm a bit the

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Speaker 1: black hat when it comes to Meghan. I am reputationally

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Speaker 1: without louders. I'm seen as someone who's very critical of her.

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Speaker 1: I did not have that same reaction when I watched

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Speaker 1: the first episode. I found it in the way that

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Speaker 1: those shows can be that are on like the Lifestyle

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Speaker 1: Channel or you know, Nigella, just quite soothing. There have

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Speaker 1: been times in my life where I've really got quite

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Speaker 1: involved in them in that they're just lovely, pleasant, white

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Speaker 1: background noise. And we talk a lot about the New

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Speaker 1: Cycle being so horrible at the moment that sometimes it

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Speaker 1: is nice to just retreat into a world where making

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Speaker 1: a gift bag for a child's birthday party is your

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Speaker 1: whole purpose, your whole purpose.

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Speaker 3: It's opened with Meghan making bath salts for her friend

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Speaker 3: who is staying in her guest room, and she says,

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Speaker 3: you always want someone who's staying in your guest cottage

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Speaker 3: to know how much you've thought of them. And I thought,

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Speaker 3: that's the most unrelatable shit I have ever heard in

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Speaker 3: my life. She was like, you want obviously a moment at.

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Speaker 1: The bedside table was moments moment who.

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Speaker 3: Has a guest? Secondly who has a bedside table? Thirdly

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Speaker 3: who has a bathroom for their guests?

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Speaker 1: I don't like people staying at the house.

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Speaker 2: This gets to one of the very big things about

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Speaker 2: it is relatability what Meghan's going for, because no, I

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Speaker 2: don't think it is no.

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Speaker 3: But what I found I'm going to use the word

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Speaker 3: insufferable about it is that I like lifestyle shows. Right. So,

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Speaker 3: Martha Stewart's stick is that she is a self described perfectionist,

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Speaker 3: and she owns that, and there's something quite self aware

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Speaker 3: about it. Meghan won't acknowledge that she's a perfectionist. She

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Speaker 3: keeps saying it doesn't have to be perfect. The other

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Speaker 3: thing I like about lifestyle shows is that while they

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Speaker 3: cook or while they potter, we learn things about their lives.

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Speaker 2: That's usually the format.

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Speaker 3: That's the format is that there's something quite revealing about

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Speaker 3: who that person is or what they think. There is

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Speaker 3: none of that the depth of the conversation. The only

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Speaker 3: place it goes to is Meghan saying to her friend,

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Speaker 3: do you like tomatoes? Who doesn't like tomatoes? They're making

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Speaker 3: a pasta and then they go and make.

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Speaker 1: I liked that pasta. It was like, why I would

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Speaker 1: like to it past He right? So I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is interesting. I'm actually learning things. I wrote down

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Speaker 1: a list of the things that I learned in this

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Speaker 1: show list. Yes, yes, I stopped writing down things after

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Speaker 1: a while because there was a lot of things that

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Speaker 1: I will never do.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: It's a bit like watching porn. You can go, well,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting, but I'll never do that. But it's interesting

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Speaker 1: to watch things go in different holes. I was like,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting to see someone make bath salts from scratch,

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Speaker 1: or someone pop corn with a dried corn, thing like

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Speaker 1: stuff I would never do. But it did feel quite

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Speaker 1: soothing in a way. Some other things that I learned

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Speaker 1: is how to harvest honey. That's when she was talking

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Speaker 1: in the clip that we had about the bees and bees.

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Speaker 3: Do you think that how to harvest honey and like

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Speaker 3: how she still needs a beekeeper year on is a

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Speaker 3: relatable life hack.

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Speaker 1: No, but I don't think these shows are relatable necessarily

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Speaker 1: because I also learned that you can get wax. If

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Speaker 1: you don't have your own bee harvest hive, you can

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Speaker 1: get wax from your local beekeeper. She did mention that.

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Speaker 3: Where's our local beekeeper? Because I I'd have to go I.

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Speaker 1: Had I learned how to make a local beekeeper. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, people, you know what, celebrities aren't meant to

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Speaker 1: be like us. They're not like Megan Markle is royal.

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Speaker 1: We would be kind of disappointed if she was.

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Speaker 3: Just she's actually not.

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Speaker 1: In her tracks and she is royal. Will you talk

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Speaker 1: about the sussex things?

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Speaker 2: Explain that one of the things I learned is about

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Speaker 2: the sussexness of it all. You said there isn't revealing stuff.

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Speaker 2: There is definitely revealing stuff in this It's just you

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Speaker 2: have to work quite hard for it because it's.

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Speaker 1: Not later Also, she stopped after the first episode.

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Speaker 2: The second one is Mandy Kayling and that was my

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Speaker 2: favorite so far. Mindy Kayling good friend of Megan. They've

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Speaker 2: already been on a show together on the podcast comes

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Speaker 2: around with their mom friends. Apparently there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: mommy in episode two. That's why you have to watch it, Jesse,

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Speaker 2: because it's aimed at you and her second birthday party.

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Speaker 1: Many Kayling is very glam like. She comes over wearing

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Speaker 1: double denim with a Valentino belt and very big fake

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Speaker 1: eyelashes and more hair and makeup than I saw her

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Speaker 1: wear at the Oscars. So I thought that was interesting.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that's the vibe, right, because what I

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Speaker 2: quite liked about Mindy is she was very clearly like,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, I'm going to Megan Michael's house, even

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Speaker 2: though she wasn't going to Mega michaels house, and she

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Speaker 2: kept saying that, and that's why Meghan had to say

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Speaker 2: but I thought with a little point, like a little

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Speaker 2: bit of like, oh, you know what I mean, because

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Speaker 2: if you're a famous person, you don't really want people

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Speaker 2: keeping saying like, oh my god, you're so famous. And

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Speaker 2: that's why Meghan then goes, it's so funny that you

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Speaker 2: keep calling me Megan Michaels. She didn't mean funny. She

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Speaker 2: said that she meant annoying, she met annoying, but she

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Speaker 2: was being polite. She said, because I'm Sussex. Now now

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Speaker 2: what she means by that? And then she said, obviously

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Speaker 2: not relatable to me that you have to have the

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Speaker 2: same name as your children, otherwise you're not a unit.

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, well that leaves all of us in

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Speaker 2: quite a lot of trouble. But anyway, yeah, anyway, the

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Speaker 2: reason she's a Sussex now is Harry's official surname, Like

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Speaker 2: as in, if he had an official surname but it

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Speaker 2: was Windsor, it's Mount Batton, Windsor, right, that's' official surname.

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Speaker 2: But royals, very often the surname is their title. So

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Speaker 2: when Harry was at school, he was known as Harry Wales.

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Speaker 2: When he was in the army, he was known as

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Speaker 2: whatever rank he was Wales, right, William Wales. That's the

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Speaker 2: way it works. So now that his title is Sussex,

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Speaker 2: the Duke of Sussex, Sussex is kind of like his

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Speaker 2: surname now, so Harry Sussex, Megan Sussex, but Sussex. So

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Speaker 2: that's how it works. So it's very much a royal

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Speaker 2: thing that they've taken on, so she is still royal.

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Speaker 1: What would be cool is if she was just called

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Speaker 1: Meghan Sussex.

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Speaker 3: Then, because even in the Executive Producer it's the first

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Speaker 3: name that comes up. Is But I couldn't get through

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Speaker 3: more than one. And I watched her have her friend over.

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Speaker 3: They wanted to gossip like anyone does, but they couldn't.

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Speaker 3: So he said things like, your peas look like pearls,

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Speaker 3: actual green peas, and then they made candles, and then

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Speaker 3: they made a cake, and then they made tea and

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Speaker 3: also the skillet spaghetti. And I was like, if I

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Speaker 3: went to a friend's house and they said let's go

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Speaker 3: make some candles, I would say, I have diarrhea and

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Speaker 3: I need to live, because that is my idea. And

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Speaker 3: you know what, this is the types of people thing.

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Speaker 3: Some people love that. But there was something in the

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Speaker 3: tone as well that I felt was like when I

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Speaker 3: take lunar to a craft class where the teacher's going

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Speaker 3: and now get your paddle pop stick and put it

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Speaker 3: here that she was speaking to her friend like that.

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Speaker 2: In one of my uncharitable moments, I did write in

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Speaker 2: my notes because I was taking notes. Obviously, if Megan

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Speaker 2: was in my mother's group, I would fake a seizure

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Speaker 2: and leave. And that's only because not because of her.

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Speaker 2: But that second episode that was about hosting a child's

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Speaker 2: birthday party triggered me, like I know that it did.

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Speaker 2: In the group chat, you turned it that I turned,

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Speaker 2: I wrote, I have turned because.

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Speaker 1: You announced your turning.

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Speaker 2: I am out of that phase of parenting now my

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Speaker 2: kids are teenagers. I found that very stressful. She uses

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Speaker 2: hostessing as a verbal lot like hostessing never stops. Hostessing

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Speaker 2: demands a lot of it. I am a terrible hostess,

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Speaker 2: and anyone who cuts their which is in the little

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Speaker 2: star shapes immediately triggers me. Never mind the balloon art stop.

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Speaker 2: But in that episode two I did learn something that

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Speaker 2: I think is quite profound, right because I kept wondering

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Speaker 2: why she's the friend clearly when Daniel comes over in

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Speaker 2: the first episode that you saw, she's clearly the friend

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Speaker 2: who goes you look tired. I'm going to run you

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Speaker 2: a bath and make you some tea for your allergies

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Speaker 2: right now. Sometimes you love that friend, and other times

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Speaker 2: you want to throttle that friend because you're like, you're controlling.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean I look tired, bitch?

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Speaker 2: I'm working hard. But anyway, in the second episode, because

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Speaker 2: I kept thinking, why does she want to look after

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Speaker 2: everyone so much? And why is she so obsessed with

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Speaker 2: everything being beautiful? And in sad episode, she talks to

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Speaker 2: me and nikayling about the tacos and how when she

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Speaker 2: was a kid, and Mindy says, did you eat like

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Speaker 2: this growing up? So she's talking about her veggie cru

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Speaker 2: to tape platters and arrange the kids love. Yeah, that

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Speaker 2: the kids love also triggered me. I am with vegetables

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Speaker 2: and children. My children have never knowingly eaten the vegetables. Still, anyway,

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Speaker 2: she says, No, I was a latch key kid, she said,

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Speaker 2: and I ate a lot of fast food. She came home,

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Speaker 2: she put a microwave meal and they did a plate

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Speaker 2: and ate alone because she had two very busy working

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Speaker 2: divorced parents and no one was making her crew to

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Speaker 2: tape plates. And so I think that one of the

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Speaker 2: things that's really interesting there is an insight about Megan.

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Speaker 2: She knows that the greatest privilege of having money really

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Speaker 2: is that you can spend our times and she said

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Speaker 2: that quite a few times.

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Speaker 1: And you can spend time making them waffles for breakfast, setting,

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Speaker 1: and I.

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Speaker 2: Think she's you know, she's clearly knows that, is self

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Speaker 2: aware enough to know that, and she's leaning into it

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Speaker 2: in a big way.

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Speaker 3: Can I ask you, Holly, what your five positives were?

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Speaker 3: I have one positive. My one positive is that she

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Speaker 3: has beautiful handwriting, a lot of writing.

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Speaker 1: Labels, and beautiful nails, very gorgeous hands. She could be handed.

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Speaker 2: I did admire the money. Yeah right, she actually looks

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00:17:57,502 --> 00:18:00,181
Speaker 2: amazing full stop. As we've already discussed, the food is

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Speaker 2: good and not that complicated, That pasta dish fantastic.

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Speaker 3: I meant that I want that recipe and the.

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Speaker 1: Quick except you can't because it isn't anywhere that did.

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Speaker 2: We have to address this at a later day. I

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Speaker 2: want to know, Mia, why you can't get all the recipes.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because you would think the logical tie

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Speaker 1: in if you were walking in the shoes of your audience,

390
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Speaker 1: is you then click and go to the website and

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Speaker 1: it shows you step by step how to do the

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Speaker 1: balloon arch, how to make the bath salts, you know,

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Speaker 1: how to make the little Lady Bug chrostini, all of

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00:18:32,782 --> 00:18:35,181
Speaker 1: those things, and they could just use steals from the

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Speaker 1: filming of the show the recipes because I couldn't follow

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Speaker 1: all of that. I'm up to episode three where they're

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Speaker 1: making fried chicken and there are so many steps and

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Speaker 1: there's brining and all of these things, and not that

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Speaker 1: I'm ever going to make it anyway, but if you

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Speaker 1: wanted to, you couldn't, So that was surprising.

401
00:18:49,982 --> 00:18:52,741
Speaker 2: Another positive for me is that she's clearly on the

402
00:18:52,782 --> 00:18:55,262
Speaker 2: sash she's a health nut, but she still offers boos

403
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Speaker 2: at kids parties, which is something I approve of very much,

404
00:18:58,702 --> 00:19:00,742
Speaker 2: and she at least pretends to drink the beer left

405
00:19:00,782 --> 00:19:02,982
Speaker 2: over from that Brian for the fried chicken. So she's

406
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Speaker 2: like kind of trying to show you.

407
00:19:05,182 --> 00:19:06,101
Speaker 1: I'm a good time.

408
00:19:06,222 --> 00:19:09,022
Speaker 2: I'm a good time. I also liked and I learned,

409
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Speaker 2: and I was like positives that she shares a good fortune.

410
00:19:11,302 --> 00:19:13,942
Speaker 2: So Daniel in that first episode, who's a makeup artist,

411
00:19:13,982 --> 00:19:16,222
Speaker 2: who makes the point in a funny moment that where

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Speaker 2: she's like, you and your boyfriend could just sit at

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00:19:18,141 --> 00:19:20,181
Speaker 2: the counter and eat this, and he's like, there's no

414
00:19:20,302 --> 00:19:24,542
Speaker 2: counter in my New York compartment. Queen like he looked

415
00:19:24,581 --> 00:19:26,502
Speaker 2: like he'd had a rainbow shot up his bum when

416
00:19:26,502 --> 00:19:28,501
Speaker 2: he was sitting on that amazing deck, and he's like,

417
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Speaker 2: I like staying in your guest cottage and going home

418
00:19:30,542 --> 00:19:32,542
Speaker 2: with all my free dab like she on the A

419
00:19:32,702 --> 00:19:36,022
Speaker 2: club's doing that for people, which I thought was really nice.

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Speaker 1: What's interesting is also I was just enchanted by what

421
00:19:40,581 --> 00:19:43,542
Speaker 1: she was wearing to cook and you know people are

422
00:19:43,542 --> 00:19:45,421
Speaker 1: going to deconstruct this, and so you wouldn't cook them.

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Speaker 1: It's like, of course, television's not real. Television shows aren't real.

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Speaker 1: You don't have a whole crew there. There's a crew

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Speaker 1: of eighty. Because she was asked in a People magazine

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Speaker 1: interview why she didn't shoot at home, and she said, look,

427
00:19:58,742 --> 00:20:01,942
Speaker 1: my home is my sanctuary, which I completely understand when

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00:20:01,982 --> 00:20:04,061
Speaker 1: you're that much in the public eye. And she said,

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Speaker 1: and also there was you know, when you've got a

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Speaker 1: crew of eighty, that's a lot of people to have

431
00:20:08,341 --> 00:20:12,542
Speaker 1: in one house, and it's very disruptive. And I understood that.

432
00:20:12,702 --> 00:20:16,061
Speaker 1: But I think what she did achieve because what I

433
00:20:16,222 --> 00:20:19,862
Speaker 1: liked about it was it got to show Megan being

434
00:20:20,782 --> 00:20:23,742
Speaker 1: what she clearly loves doing. So sometimes people go a

435
00:20:23,821 --> 00:20:26,581
Speaker 1: whited blah blah do this reality show? The reason that

436
00:20:26,581 --> 00:20:29,581
Speaker 1: most people give for doing reality shows or interviews is

437
00:20:29,581 --> 00:20:32,061
Speaker 1: that they just want to be understood for who they are,

438
00:20:32,141 --> 00:20:34,262
Speaker 1: and they feel that the public has the wrong idea

439
00:20:34,302 --> 00:20:34,661
Speaker 1: about that.

440
00:20:34,821 --> 00:20:36,102
Speaker 3: I think that's what this project.

441
00:20:36,182 --> 00:20:38,941
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think what it allowed her to be

442
00:20:39,022 --> 00:20:43,022
Speaker 1: publicly is what her friends, she says repeatedly, know her

443
00:20:43,022 --> 00:20:48,782
Speaker 1: to be privately, which is fun, easy going, nurturing, loves

444
00:20:48,782 --> 00:20:51,782
Speaker 1: a crew, to tap, plate, crafty, all of those things,

445
00:20:52,101 --> 00:20:57,581
Speaker 1: instead of being under siege, complaining about the royal family, traumatized, racism,

446
00:20:57,661 --> 00:21:01,022
Speaker 1: all of that very negative narrative which set in really

447
00:21:01,101 --> 00:21:04,782
Speaker 1: fast after she do that crib shift will work, Yeah,

448
00:21:04,782 --> 00:21:06,821
Speaker 1: I do, because I think in the same way that

449
00:21:06,861 --> 00:21:09,302
Speaker 1: you were saying, you like that she's on Instagram now.

450
00:21:09,702 --> 00:21:11,782
Speaker 1: I think that when you flood the zone, if we've

451
00:21:11,821 --> 00:21:15,341
Speaker 1: learned nothing from Donald Trump, it's this, when you flood

452
00:21:15,341 --> 00:21:17,861
Speaker 1: the zone with content, the only way to change the

453
00:21:17,861 --> 00:21:20,462
Speaker 1: conversation is to start a new conversation. And this show

454
00:21:20,542 --> 00:21:23,661
Speaker 1: is a new conversation. And if we've all said stopped complaining,

455
00:21:24,222 --> 00:21:25,502
Speaker 1: it's not complaining it. Yeah.

456
00:21:25,542 --> 00:21:30,022
Speaker 3: But I think that the problem is probably that the

457
00:21:30,061 --> 00:21:33,221
Speaker 3: show is dull and that it's not going to have traction.

458
00:21:33,542 --> 00:21:35,061
Speaker 3: I don't think it's going to have the kind of

459
00:21:35,141 --> 00:21:37,581
Speaker 3: viral traction that she would have wanted, and what we

460
00:21:37,901 --> 00:21:38,302
Speaker 3: I think.

461
00:21:38,182 --> 00:21:39,981
Speaker 1: She wants to be viral. I think she wants to

462
00:21:39,982 --> 00:21:42,942
Speaker 1: be dull, like the Tig was dull. Her lifestyle website

463
00:21:43,341 --> 00:21:48,462
Speaker 1: was dull. It rubs maybe inoffensive, yeah, it.

464
00:21:48,422 --> 00:21:52,421
Speaker 3: Rubs against maybe an Australian sensibility in that what it

465
00:21:52,462 --> 00:21:54,821
Speaker 3: appears to be is eight episodes of having friends come

466
00:21:54,821 --> 00:21:59,821
Speaker 3: to your house and really talk to Meghan about how

467
00:21:59,821 --> 00:22:03,101
Speaker 3: great she is, and go, Meghan, oh my goodness.

468
00:22:02,901 --> 00:22:04,022
Speaker 1: I can't believe I'm in your hand.

469
00:22:04,101 --> 00:22:06,501
Speaker 3: I can't believe you're so beautiful. Look at this amazing cake.

470
00:22:06,502 --> 00:22:09,302
Speaker 3: Blah blah blah, which might have happened, but in an edit,

471
00:22:09,621 --> 00:22:11,502
Speaker 3: I go just as a viewer, I don't find that

472
00:22:11,502 --> 00:22:14,262
Speaker 3: particularly interesting. Sometimes you interview someone in this job and

473
00:22:14,262 --> 00:22:15,542
Speaker 3: they come in and you do a bit of gushing.

474
00:22:15,782 --> 00:22:17,821
Speaker 3: You cut that no one wants to hear it. But

475
00:22:18,222 --> 00:22:21,542
Speaker 3: this show, to me is fifty percent gushing, which I

476
00:22:21,581 --> 00:22:25,222
Speaker 3: don't find particularly insightful. So I'm stopping at one. I

477
00:22:25,262 --> 00:22:28,702
Speaker 3: don't think I can do it. Please, I will watch Lindy.

478
00:22:28,782 --> 00:22:30,421
Speaker 3: I'll watch Mindy, but I need to know if you

479
00:22:30,462 --> 00:22:31,901
Speaker 3: two are going to finish the series.

480
00:22:31,982 --> 00:22:35,101
Speaker 1: I am when I'm looking for something inoffensive kind of

481
00:22:35,141 --> 00:22:37,901
Speaker 1: background noise. It's a great second screen show where you

482
00:22:37,942 --> 00:22:39,941
Speaker 1: can look up every so often and go this person

483
00:22:39,982 --> 00:22:43,061
Speaker 1: who's been this enigma for what almost ten years now,

484
00:22:43,101 --> 00:22:45,941
Speaker 1: and there's all this drama and gossip. You can just

485
00:22:46,022 --> 00:22:47,901
Speaker 1: see her living a life.

486
00:22:47,942 --> 00:22:50,981
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yes, I will. When the recipes come, I will

487
00:22:51,462 --> 00:22:54,141
Speaker 2: be definitely trying to cook some things. I'm already gonna

488
00:22:54,141 --> 00:22:56,621
Speaker 2: make quickles this weekend because I'm sad like that. And

489
00:22:56,661 --> 00:23:00,101
Speaker 2: the last thing is for everything, quick pickles, quick pickles.

490
00:23:00,182 --> 00:23:02,262
Speaker 1: For those who haven't watched that episode.

491
00:23:01,942 --> 00:23:06,542
Speaker 2: Everybody who is wondering where is the jam today? The

492
00:23:06,702 --> 00:23:10,821
Speaker 2: jams on the website, I can't buite look at it though,

493
00:23:11,262 --> 00:23:13,621
Speaker 2: And and no one who has watched the first two

494
00:23:13,621 --> 00:23:17,021
Speaker 2: episodes of that will be surprised to hear this flower sprinkles.

495
00:23:16,621 --> 00:23:19,581
Speaker 1: You know what. I'm off to find my local beekeeper.

496
00:23:20,942 --> 00:23:28,621
Speaker 3: In a moment. Why one school is banning mirrors in

497
00:23:28,621 --> 00:23:31,101
Speaker 3: case you missed it, A new trend is starting to

498
00:23:31,141 --> 00:23:33,302
Speaker 3: really piss off the hairdressers. And you don't want to

499
00:23:33,302 --> 00:23:35,741
Speaker 3: piss off a hairdresser. They have scissors and they can

500
00:23:35,782 --> 00:23:38,782
Speaker 3: give your pocket if they're in the mood. According to

501
00:23:38,821 --> 00:23:41,942
Speaker 3: a story in the Washington Post, in the last six months,

502
00:23:41,982 --> 00:23:46,421
Speaker 3: some hairdressers have seen a sharp increase in clients presenting

503
00:23:46,462 --> 00:23:51,061
Speaker 3: with AI images when asking for color or cut. The image,

504
00:23:51,101 --> 00:23:55,302
Speaker 3: which is maybe sourced from Pinterest or Instagram, is flawless,

505
00:23:55,302 --> 00:23:58,261
Speaker 3: the hair is too glossy, cut is too perfect, and

506
00:23:58,302 --> 00:24:00,302
Speaker 3: the hairdresser has to say, not.

507
00:24:00,262 --> 00:24:04,742
Speaker 1: Possible on actual hair that looks a lot better than.

508
00:24:04,661 --> 00:24:08,742
Speaker 3: Yours, exactly. And the same is apparently happening with wedding dresses.

509
00:24:08,982 --> 00:24:11,381
Speaker 3: So people come in and show a photo of a

510
00:24:11,381 --> 00:24:15,141
Speaker 3: floor length gown with no back, no size leaves, and

511
00:24:15,782 --> 00:24:19,862
Speaker 3: drap fronts like that defies the laws of physics, and

512
00:24:19,901 --> 00:24:21,302
Speaker 3: we can't make it.

513
00:24:21,341 --> 00:24:23,941
Speaker 1: And I think look to be fair. This is what

514
00:24:23,942 --> 00:24:29,221
Speaker 1: I've always said about body image and why retouching in

515
00:24:29,262 --> 00:24:32,462
Speaker 1: the days of magazines and now using filters and face

516
00:24:32,542 --> 00:24:36,381
Speaker 1: tune is so messed up because you don't know that

517
00:24:36,422 --> 00:24:39,022
Speaker 1: what you're looking at doesn't exist. But when you are

518
00:24:39,101 --> 00:24:41,821
Speaker 1: looking at it and then looking at yourself in the mirror,

519
00:24:42,022 --> 00:24:44,661
Speaker 1: whether you realize it or not, you're subliminally comparing yourself

520
00:24:44,702 --> 00:24:46,101
Speaker 1: to something that actually doesn't exist.

521
00:24:46,222 --> 00:24:49,182
Speaker 3: And experts can tell because even like wedding planners that

522
00:24:49,222 --> 00:24:51,621
Speaker 3: they'll be shown a venue or a table set and

523
00:24:51,621 --> 00:24:55,381
Speaker 3: they'll go that is not real. That is basically a cartoon.

524
00:24:56,022 --> 00:25:01,381
Speaker 3: People are coming into their plastic surgeons with artificially generated bodies. Holly,

525
00:25:01,542 --> 00:25:04,262
Speaker 3: is this really that different to the time you took

526
00:25:04,262 --> 00:25:06,022
Speaker 3: in a photo of Lara Bingal and said, can you

527
00:25:06,022 --> 00:25:06,661
Speaker 3: make me look like this?

528
00:25:06,942 --> 00:25:09,341
Speaker 2: I was only thinking about that the amount of times

529
00:25:09,661 --> 00:25:11,981
Speaker 2: have taken in a photo that might as well have

530
00:25:12,022 --> 00:25:15,462
Speaker 2: been AI and in its relation to my actual head

531
00:25:16,621 --> 00:25:19,581
Speaker 2: humorous Bridget Bardot, I'd like to look like this. Please,

532
00:25:19,661 --> 00:25:22,141
Speaker 2: good luck to hale. Hair is not going to do it. Yes,

533
00:25:22,141 --> 00:25:25,181
Speaker 2: it's exactly like that, and I just think we can

534
00:25:25,262 --> 00:25:28,542
Speaker 2: all dream. But an honest hairdresser is a great gift.

535
00:25:33,101 --> 00:25:36,782
Speaker 3: First, some schools band phones, but one school in the

536
00:25:36,901 --> 00:25:39,101
Speaker 3: UK has put a new ban in place that has

537
00:25:39,101 --> 00:25:42,742
Speaker 3: sparked a very lively debate. William Farr Church of England

538
00:25:43,022 --> 00:25:46,861
Speaker 3: Comprehensive School in Lincolnshire has just banned mirrors, according to

539
00:25:46,861 --> 00:25:49,342
Speaker 3: an article in the Sydney Morning Herald, because they were

540
00:25:49,381 --> 00:25:52,542
Speaker 3: concerned by the amount of time students were spending in

541
00:25:52,621 --> 00:25:56,702
Speaker 3: bathrooms looking at themselves. The head master says the decision

542
00:25:56,821 --> 00:26:02,302
Speaker 3: was made to reduce distractions during school hours, particularly between lessons,

543
00:26:02,702 --> 00:26:04,581
Speaker 3: as students were often late to class.

544
00:26:04,782 --> 00:26:06,341
Speaker 1: Is this the girls on the boys toilets?

545
00:26:06,542 --> 00:26:08,861
Speaker 3: It did say, I think it's a co ed school.

546
00:26:09,141 --> 00:26:11,741
Speaker 2: At school because it's comprehensive and so that means it's

547
00:26:11,742 --> 00:26:15,182
Speaker 2: a public school. But I think, breathing between the lines,

548
00:26:15,182 --> 00:26:15,981
Speaker 2: I think it's the girls.

549
00:26:16,462 --> 00:26:18,901
Speaker 3: Interesting because they did say if students need a mirror

550
00:26:18,901 --> 00:26:22,302
Speaker 3: for medical purposes, they are entitled to ask reception.

551
00:26:22,302 --> 00:26:23,701
Speaker 1: What medical purposes?

552
00:26:23,742 --> 00:26:27,221
Speaker 3: Well, good question. One woman said about her daughter that

553
00:26:27,262 --> 00:26:30,101
Speaker 3: she has contact lenses and braces, so she needs a mirror.

554
00:26:30,101 --> 00:26:31,942
Speaker 3: What if she needs to take her contact lenses out?

555
00:26:32,022 --> 00:26:32,422
Speaker 4: What then?

556
00:26:32,821 --> 00:26:33,421
Speaker 2: Oh?

557
00:26:33,502 --> 00:26:37,502
Speaker 3: Yeah, But another mom said that's quite specific. Yeah it is,

558
00:26:37,542 --> 00:26:39,421
Speaker 3: And I think that's a medical purpose, so you would just,

559
00:26:39,861 --> 00:26:41,621
Speaker 3: you know, go to the office and say I need

560
00:26:41,661 --> 00:26:44,782
Speaker 3: a hand. One mom said though that she was actually

561
00:26:44,782 --> 00:26:47,422
Speaker 3: really supportive of it, and she likes that her daughter

562
00:26:47,462 --> 00:26:49,422
Speaker 3: can't go in and check herself out all the time

563
00:26:49,542 --> 00:26:52,702
Speaker 3: and maybe she'll start getting to class on time. Yeah.

564
00:26:52,702 --> 00:26:55,262
Speaker 1: I've heard this happening at another school where people were

565
00:26:55,302 --> 00:26:58,022
Speaker 1: going in and filming tiktoks and they were going in

566
00:26:58,061 --> 00:26:59,622
Speaker 1: and looking at themselves for a long time, and then

567
00:26:59,661 --> 00:27:03,381
Speaker 1: filming tiktoks at school, and it was disruptive because the

568
00:27:03,381 --> 00:27:05,142
Speaker 1: people who actually had to go to the toilet could

569
00:27:05,222 --> 00:27:06,782
Speaker 1: never get in because it was too busy.

570
00:27:07,341 --> 00:27:07,742
Speaker 2: Was part of that.

571
00:27:07,821 --> 00:27:10,141
Speaker 1: What's interesting A lot of people will assume that this

572
00:27:10,262 --> 00:27:12,502
Speaker 1: is just girls, but what you know if you've got

573
00:27:12,542 --> 00:27:15,621
Speaker 1: teenage boys, is that for a lot of teenage boys,

574
00:27:15,942 --> 00:27:18,421
Speaker 1: they get to this age it's I think it's around

575
00:27:18,422 --> 00:27:23,341
Speaker 1: fourteen fifteen where they suddenly become transfixed with their reflection

576
00:27:23,901 --> 00:27:27,101
Speaker 1: and they cannot see a reflective surface without stopping and

577
00:27:27,182 --> 00:27:31,262
Speaker 1: looking at themselves in it and often flexing. And my

578
00:27:31,661 --> 00:27:35,222
Speaker 1: reasoning for why both teenage girls and boys spend such

579
00:27:35,222 --> 00:27:38,142
Speaker 1: a long time looking in the mirror is that when

580
00:27:38,182 --> 00:27:43,061
Speaker 1: you go through puberty, you change so dramatically, and you know,

581
00:27:43,141 --> 00:27:48,101
Speaker 1: you go from child to young adult essentially, and it

582
00:27:48,222 --> 00:27:50,421
Speaker 1: takes a while for your mind to catch up with

583
00:27:50,581 --> 00:27:53,982
Speaker 1: how you look, and so I think it's about adjusting

584
00:27:54,101 --> 00:27:56,061
Speaker 1: to that. Oh my god, is that me? I mean

585
00:27:56,101 --> 00:27:57,861
Speaker 1: I remember being a little kid and looking at my

586
00:27:57,901 --> 00:28:00,902
Speaker 1: shadow at the beach and seeing that my waist went

587
00:28:00,982 --> 00:28:03,061
Speaker 1: in and being absolutely transfixed.

588
00:28:03,101 --> 00:28:07,061
Speaker 3: It's a fixture of adolescence, the kind of come looking

589
00:28:07,141 --> 00:28:07,861
Speaker 3: at yourself.

590
00:28:08,141 --> 00:28:10,701
Speaker 2: Honestly, I'm not going to throw row any members of

591
00:28:10,742 --> 00:28:12,621
Speaker 2: my family under the bus, but I've spent quite a

592
00:28:12,661 --> 00:28:15,661
Speaker 2: lot of time around fifteen year old girls. They are

593
00:28:15,702 --> 00:28:21,741
Speaker 2: looking at themselves too fucking much all the time. It's changed,

594
00:28:21,782 --> 00:28:23,702
Speaker 2: though it has always been the case to a point.

595
00:28:23,742 --> 00:28:25,742
Speaker 2: But the reason that they're looking at themselves so much

596
00:28:25,782 --> 00:28:28,101
Speaker 2: is because they've never been more surveyed. They have grown

597
00:28:28,182 --> 00:28:30,181
Speaker 2: up looking at their faces in their phone cameras and

598
00:28:30,262 --> 00:28:32,462
Speaker 2: looking at other women's faces in their phone cameras in

599
00:28:32,502 --> 00:28:33,382
Speaker 2: a way that none of.

600
00:28:33,341 --> 00:28:34,061
Speaker 1: Us ever did.

601
00:28:34,422 --> 00:28:40,181
Speaker 2: And they are understandably, completely understandably completely obsessed with what

602
00:28:40,222 --> 00:28:44,822
Speaker 2: they look like. And so they're endless looking in the mirror,

603
00:28:44,862 --> 00:28:48,702
Speaker 2: putting on your makeup, lip gluss, lip gloss off. It's normal,

604
00:28:48,822 --> 00:28:51,622
Speaker 2: it's teenagery. In my opinion, it is getting more and

605
00:28:51,661 --> 00:28:54,742
Speaker 2: more intense for very understandable reasons that are not their fault.

606
00:28:55,582 --> 00:28:56,742
Speaker 1: But I hate it.

607
00:28:56,862 --> 00:28:58,582
Speaker 2: If I could remove all the mirrors from my house,

608
00:28:58,622 --> 00:29:02,342
Speaker 2: I would. I remember Zady Smith, she's a famous British author,

609
00:29:03,022 --> 00:29:04,622
Speaker 2: made a lot of headlines a few years ago for

610
00:29:04,661 --> 00:29:07,342
Speaker 2: saying that she had given her teenage daughter as a band.

611
00:29:07,462 --> 00:29:09,702
Speaker 2: No time limit of how long they're allowed to look

612
00:29:09,702 --> 00:29:11,542
Speaker 2: in the mirror, and a lot of people were outrage.

613
00:29:11,542 --> 00:29:13,262
Speaker 2: I think it was fifteen minutes. It was still a

614
00:29:13,262 --> 00:29:16,822
Speaker 2: long time, right, And she said, this is fifteen minutes

615
00:29:16,862 --> 00:29:18,982
Speaker 2: that you are spending that your brother is not. This

616
00:29:19,062 --> 00:29:21,221
Speaker 2: is time that you are spending staring at yourself and

617
00:29:21,222 --> 00:29:23,062
Speaker 2: fiddling with your face and doing all the stuff that

618
00:29:23,102 --> 00:29:24,822
Speaker 2: the boys are not. Now, I know you see your

619
00:29:24,822 --> 00:29:28,022
Speaker 2: point mere about the transfixed with their appearance, but they're

620
00:29:28,062 --> 00:29:31,062
Speaker 2: not grooming in there for hours and hours. And I

621
00:29:31,102 --> 00:29:33,182
Speaker 2: think we need a little bit of good old fashioned

622
00:29:33,782 --> 00:29:36,022
Speaker 2: stop obsessing about what you look like. But then maybe

623
00:29:36,022 --> 00:29:37,382
Speaker 2: that's just a glimpse into my house.

624
00:29:37,502 --> 00:29:42,622
Speaker 3: I vividly remember being fourteen, and this was before Instagram

625
00:29:42,622 --> 00:29:45,661
Speaker 3: and Facebook and phones. People didn't know if they had anything.

626
00:29:45,661 --> 00:29:48,142
Speaker 3: They had a kind of nockier thing with snake on it.

627
00:29:48,702 --> 00:29:51,981
Speaker 3: But I remember there were some classrooms that had a

628
00:29:51,982 --> 00:29:54,742
Speaker 3: mirror and the girls you couldn't focus because they would

629
00:29:54,742 --> 00:29:57,342
Speaker 3: look at themselves, they'd pull a face, they would redo

630
00:29:57,502 --> 00:30:01,062
Speaker 3: hair up. Well, I'm reading, and then there was this

631
00:30:01,222 --> 00:30:04,262
Speaker 3: big mirror like above the bubblers and above, and the

632
00:30:04,342 --> 00:30:09,262
Speaker 3: fixation on appearance was such a part of my high

633
00:30:09,262 --> 00:30:12,822
Speaker 3: school experience, and I went through probably about two years

634
00:30:12,862 --> 00:30:15,582
Speaker 3: between fourteen and sixteen, where I did not look in

635
00:30:15,622 --> 00:30:17,981
Speaker 3: a mirror. I would brush my teeth in the morning,

636
00:30:18,102 --> 00:30:21,662
Speaker 3: eyes down, I would avoid a mirror at all costs.

637
00:30:21,782 --> 00:30:25,941
Speaker 3: I hated it because if you avoid a mirror, you

638
00:30:25,982 --> 00:30:28,822
Speaker 3: can live in a world where your face doesn't exist,

639
00:30:29,262 --> 00:30:32,782
Speaker 3: and it's great. And I was deeply I was filled

640
00:30:32,782 --> 00:30:34,662
Speaker 3: with self loathing. Was a lot why I didn't want

641
00:30:34,661 --> 00:30:35,862
Speaker 3: to look in the mirror. I didn't like what my

642
00:30:35,862 --> 00:30:38,062
Speaker 3: skin looked like, in my braces and all of the things.

643
00:30:38,661 --> 00:30:41,222
Speaker 3: If the mirrors had been a mirror, it's healthy. I

644
00:30:41,222 --> 00:30:43,022
Speaker 3: don't know if it's particularly healthy to.

645
00:30:43,022 --> 00:30:45,261
Speaker 2: Aspire to, but I think because I know a lot

646
00:30:45,262 --> 00:30:46,782
Speaker 2: of women at the other end of their lives who

647
00:30:46,782 --> 00:30:48,941
Speaker 2: do the same, a lot of older women who go,

648
00:30:49,062 --> 00:30:51,302
Speaker 2: I'm just not doing mirrors anymore for the same reason.

649
00:30:51,302 --> 00:30:53,942
Speaker 2: They're like, it's too confronting, it's stop setting. I don't

650
00:30:53,942 --> 00:30:56,542
Speaker 2: conform to the standards. What's the point? And that living

651
00:30:56,582 --> 00:30:58,982
Speaker 2: in a world where you don't have to think about

652
00:30:58,982 --> 00:31:01,022
Speaker 2: it is liberating because extreme.

653
00:31:00,862 --> 00:31:04,182
Speaker 3: Ultimately it doesn't matter. And I had to keep telling myself.

654
00:31:04,342 --> 00:31:06,782
Speaker 1: That's fourteen, but it's okay.

655
00:31:06,822 --> 00:31:08,262
Speaker 3: It shouldn't matter, of course.

656
00:31:08,302 --> 00:31:10,822
Speaker 1: So there's the way the world should be, and there's

657
00:31:10,862 --> 00:31:13,382
Speaker 1: the way the world is. And given that we live

658
00:31:13,422 --> 00:31:18,062
Speaker 1: in a world where women's appearances are weaponized against us,

659
00:31:18,382 --> 00:31:23,342
Speaker 1: they're monetized by ourselves, by other people, to pretend that

660
00:31:23,462 --> 00:31:26,421
Speaker 1: isn't the case, and to say, the whole world's telling

661
00:31:26,422 --> 00:31:29,502
Speaker 1: you this, but you've got to pretend like they're not

662
00:31:29,742 --> 00:31:32,461
Speaker 1: and not look in a mirror when a girl is

663
00:31:32,542 --> 00:31:34,662
Speaker 1: really you know, at that age, you're also you're right,

664
00:31:34,742 --> 00:31:37,342
Speaker 1: You're starting to realize that you are being perceived by

665
00:31:37,342 --> 00:31:39,862
Speaker 1: others and you need to sort of close that gap

666
00:31:39,942 --> 00:31:43,342
Speaker 1: between how you perceive yourself and how you are being

667
00:31:43,382 --> 00:31:45,382
Speaker 1: perceived by other people, and looking in a mirror is

668
00:31:45,382 --> 00:31:46,342
Speaker 1: the only way to do that.

669
00:31:46,502 --> 00:31:49,142
Speaker 3: I think it's a brave, bold move from a school,

670
00:31:49,182 --> 00:31:52,502
Speaker 3: And what are schools if not trying to imbue certain

671
00:31:52,582 --> 00:31:55,262
Speaker 3: values into you. Do we just accept that people live

672
00:31:55,262 --> 00:31:58,542
Speaker 3: on their smartphones, that people are being perceived, that girls

673
00:31:58,542 --> 00:32:00,622
Speaker 3: at twelve are putting makeup on and doing tiktoks like

674
00:32:00,661 --> 00:32:03,661
Speaker 3: that's why schools go, we're not wearing makeup.

675
00:32:03,702 --> 00:32:05,102
Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good idea

676
00:32:05,142 --> 00:32:06,782
Speaker 1: that the schools are doing. Yeah, I like in the

677
00:32:06,822 --> 00:32:10,421
Speaker 1: same way as phones. It's nice to have lay in

678
00:32:10,462 --> 00:32:12,382
Speaker 1: your work, but it's also nice to have a place

679
00:32:12,382 --> 00:32:15,422
Speaker 1: in your life a few hours off from being perceived

680
00:32:15,462 --> 00:32:18,501
Speaker 1: from thinking about how you look. I absolutely support that,

681
00:32:18,542 --> 00:32:21,542
Speaker 1: But I think to say girls shouldn't look at themselves

682
00:32:21,582 --> 00:32:24,062
Speaker 1: in the mirror is just not really.

683
00:32:24,182 --> 00:32:25,822
Speaker 2: But I don't think it shouldn't look at it. I

684
00:32:25,902 --> 00:32:27,702
Speaker 2: don't think you shouldn't look at yourself in the mirror

685
00:32:27,742 --> 00:32:29,782
Speaker 2: at all. Although I totally relate to what Jesse is

686
00:32:29,782 --> 00:32:32,662
Speaker 2: saying about how freeing it is, but just the amount

687
00:32:32,822 --> 00:32:35,382
Speaker 2: of time and energy, because of course you have to

688
00:32:35,382 --> 00:32:36,661
Speaker 2: deal with the way the world is. But if we

689
00:32:36,742 --> 00:32:38,582
Speaker 2: ever want to change the world, you have to question

690
00:32:38,661 --> 00:32:41,142
Speaker 2: the way the world is. And it's getting worse, not better.

691
00:32:41,182 --> 00:32:43,262
Speaker 2: It's one of my points about this, right is that

692
00:32:43,661 --> 00:32:45,582
Speaker 2: we might be more empowered in so many ways, and

693
00:32:45,622 --> 00:32:47,382
Speaker 2: women have more choices in so many ways, but the

694
00:32:47,422 --> 00:32:49,542
Speaker 2: fixation on appearance, because of.

695
00:32:49,502 --> 00:32:50,862
Speaker 1: The forward facing phone and.

696
00:32:50,822 --> 00:32:53,382
Speaker 2: The and all of those things, and social media is

697
00:32:53,422 --> 00:32:55,661
Speaker 2: getting worse and worse and worse. And I remember so

698
00:32:55,782 --> 00:32:58,022
Speaker 2: clearly my daughter when she was about twelve. Then I'd

699
00:32:58,022 --> 00:32:59,582
Speaker 2: always said to it doesn't matter what you look like.

700
00:32:59,582 --> 00:33:01,462
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter what you look like. And she did

701
00:33:01,462 --> 00:33:02,782
Speaker 2: a me or and she was right. Gave me a

702
00:33:02,822 --> 00:33:06,702
Speaker 2: reality check one day. But Mum, it's all anyone actually

703
00:33:06,742 --> 00:33:08,742
Speaker 2: cares about, and that's heartbreaking.

704
00:33:08,902 --> 00:33:10,862
Speaker 1: But I just don't think think you should shame girls

705
00:33:10,942 --> 00:33:12,981
Speaker 1: or boys for looking in the mirror. Oh I do,

706
00:33:13,102 --> 00:33:19,262
Speaker 1: because I used to. Have you been watching the latest

707
00:33:19,262 --> 00:33:22,421
Speaker 1: season of Married at First Sight? Full disclosure, We have

708
00:33:22,622 --> 00:33:25,582
Speaker 1: not been, but we know so many of you have

709
00:33:25,862 --> 00:33:29,102
Speaker 1: and discussing it in the out Louders Facebook group and

710
00:33:29,302 --> 00:33:31,582
Speaker 1: on our socials. And the reason why we're talking about

711
00:33:31,622 --> 00:33:35,022
Speaker 1: it today is because it has jumped from being a

712
00:33:35,062 --> 00:33:39,261
Speaker 1: reality TV story into the zeitgeist and now the news cycle,

713
00:33:39,302 --> 00:33:42,342
Speaker 1: and also because it's become a story about domestic violence

714
00:33:42,702 --> 00:33:46,982
Speaker 1: and coercive control. But before we discuss whether reality TV

715
00:33:47,182 --> 00:33:49,822
Speaker 1: is the right place to showcase serious issues like this,

716
00:33:50,422 --> 00:33:54,461
Speaker 1: we needed an explainer about what has actually happened on

717
00:33:54,502 --> 00:33:57,782
Speaker 1: the show. So we've invited someone who knows everything about

718
00:33:57,782 --> 00:34:00,741
Speaker 1: this topic. Tina Burke. Muma me is pop culture and

719
00:34:00,782 --> 00:34:04,462
Speaker 1: social editor to people who know nothing about it, which

720
00:34:04,502 --> 00:34:06,502
Speaker 1: is the three of us so we know some things

721
00:34:06,502 --> 00:34:09,222
Speaker 1: about it, we need to know a little bit more. Tina,

722
00:34:09,822 --> 00:34:12,462
Speaker 1: can you tell us, firstly, for the people who really

723
00:34:12,502 --> 00:34:15,742
Speaker 1: know nothing, how does maths work? What's the basic premise.

724
00:34:15,982 --> 00:34:18,342
Speaker 5: I'm so jealous of anyone who doesn't know how maths works.

725
00:34:19,902 --> 00:34:21,901
Speaker 5: But the basic premise is that a panel of three

726
00:34:21,902 --> 00:34:25,502
Speaker 5: love experts, like qualified in various different areas, pull together

727
00:34:25,582 --> 00:34:28,062
Speaker 5: a bunch of total strangers who first meet on their

728
00:34:28,062 --> 00:34:30,981
Speaker 5: wedding days. In Australia it's not a legal wedding day,

729
00:34:31,062 --> 00:34:33,102
Speaker 5: but in other countries it is. So they have their

730
00:34:33,102 --> 00:34:35,301
Speaker 5: fake wedding and then they spend either weeks or up

731
00:34:35,302 --> 00:34:38,301
Speaker 5: to three months in an experiment basically simulating what it

732
00:34:38,342 --> 00:34:39,341
Speaker 5: would be like to be.

733
00:34:39,382 --> 00:34:40,261
Speaker 1: In a relationship.

734
00:34:40,502 --> 00:34:43,782
Speaker 3: Can you explain, because I've watched pretty much every season

735
00:34:43,862 --> 00:34:46,422
Speaker 3: up until now, but I've seen a lot of headlines

736
00:34:46,542 --> 00:34:50,582
Speaker 3: and commentary about a man named Adrian. What has happened

737
00:34:50,622 --> 00:34:53,542
Speaker 3: on the show? Why is he kind of so front

738
00:34:53,582 --> 00:34:54,422
Speaker 3: and center this season?

739
00:34:54,701 --> 00:34:57,301
Speaker 5: So Adrian has been paired with a fena, and so

740
00:34:57,422 --> 00:34:59,982
Speaker 5: their match has been basically one of the most controversial

741
00:35:00,062 --> 00:35:02,302
Speaker 5: so far this season. They were pretty much just matched

742
00:35:02,302 --> 00:35:04,781
Speaker 5: together because they're twins. Like no one can see any

743
00:35:04,781 --> 00:35:08,102
Speaker 5: other reason that they they're not twins. Sorry, they're both

744
00:35:08,142 --> 00:35:13,542
Speaker 5: in sets of twins, twins both twin and that was

745
00:35:13,622 --> 00:35:15,861
Speaker 5: the only reason they were matched. There's no other thing.

746
00:35:15,982 --> 00:35:17,542
Speaker 3: It does feel a bit married at first sight. To

747
00:35:17,582 --> 00:35:20,461
Speaker 3: match twins with each other and be like, prank you're

748
00:35:20,502 --> 00:35:21,701
Speaker 3: married anyway.

749
00:35:21,502 --> 00:35:24,341
Speaker 5: Would have been good TV, but scary TV. But so

750
00:35:24,382 --> 00:35:26,622
Speaker 5: they were matched together. She's a single mother, so she's

751
00:35:26,701 --> 00:35:28,981
Speaker 5: quite like earnestly they're looking for love. And then he's

752
00:35:29,022 --> 00:35:31,542
Speaker 5: made it quite clear that he just wants to be famous,

753
00:35:31,582 --> 00:35:34,421
Speaker 5: as most mass contestants do. And you know, they say

754
00:35:34,422 --> 00:35:37,022
Speaker 5: they've got a good connection, that they've had some loving moments,

755
00:35:37,022 --> 00:35:39,262
Speaker 5: but we've obviously only seen the negative.

756
00:35:38,902 --> 00:35:41,181
Speaker 1: To what's the drama with him is basically.

757
00:35:40,902 --> 00:35:42,942
Speaker 5: That he's coming across very controlling in the way that

758
00:35:42,982 --> 00:35:46,221
Speaker 5: he is behaving towards a femurs. So his behavior has

759
00:35:46,221 --> 00:35:48,462
Speaker 5: been called out by viewers. He's kind of said things like,

760
00:35:48,781 --> 00:35:50,942
Speaker 5: don't tell the experts this when we go in, like,

761
00:35:51,022 --> 00:35:54,421
Speaker 5: don't tell the other contestants that I said this to you.

762
00:35:54,661 --> 00:35:56,382
Speaker 5: And he's also doing things that kind of make her,

763
00:35:56,462 --> 00:35:58,382
Speaker 5: in very small ways, seem a little bit crazy.

764
00:35:58,741 --> 00:35:59,382
Speaker 1: So they'll be.

765
00:35:59,382 --> 00:36:01,542
Speaker 5: Having a conversation and she's talking at a normal volume

766
00:36:01,542 --> 00:36:03,622
Speaker 5: and he'll be like, stop yelling, stop screaming.

767
00:36:05,382 --> 00:36:08,542
Speaker 3: And was there a background before he came on the show.

768
00:36:08,902 --> 00:36:12,741
Speaker 5: Yes, So obviously the thing that happens is that they

769
00:36:12,781 --> 00:36:15,062
Speaker 5: get paired. They go through all of these background checks,

770
00:36:15,062 --> 00:36:16,942
Speaker 5: and in around August last year we found out like

771
00:36:16,982 --> 00:36:19,542
Speaker 5: who was matched through paparazzi photos and things like that.

772
00:36:19,902 --> 00:36:22,462
Speaker 5: So when that did happen, someone who knew of his

773
00:36:22,582 --> 00:36:25,062
Speaker 5: past emailed EndemolShine and they kind of.

774
00:36:24,942 --> 00:36:26,862
Speaker 1: Said that the Channel nine.

775
00:36:26,942 --> 00:36:28,661
Speaker 5: Yeah, so they emailed them. They said that they were

776
00:36:28,661 --> 00:36:30,542
Speaker 5: concerned about the fact that he had had a past

777
00:36:30,661 --> 00:36:33,822
Speaker 5: of domestic abuse charges. But he was found not guilty

778
00:36:33,942 --> 00:36:37,821
Speaker 5: of those charges. So in twenty twenty one, he was

779
00:36:37,862 --> 00:36:41,022
Speaker 5: dismissed in a New South Wales court for assault occasionally

780
00:36:41,062 --> 00:36:44,782
Speaker 5: actual bodily harm, domestic violence, common assault and resisting police

781
00:36:45,181 --> 00:36:46,861
Speaker 5: and that was to do with an ex partner who

782
00:36:46,902 --> 00:36:48,862
Speaker 5: he lived with. But yeah, he was found not guilty.

783
00:36:48,902 --> 00:36:52,582
Speaker 1: So the producers, when they discovered this and when it

784
00:36:52,622 --> 00:36:56,382
Speaker 1: came out publicly said that they don't do police checks.

785
00:36:56,701 --> 00:36:59,622
Speaker 1: They do very basic background checks. But I would have

786
00:36:59,661 --> 00:37:02,341
Speaker 1: assumed even a Google search probably could have come up

787
00:37:02,342 --> 00:37:06,422
Speaker 1: with that that was surprising to hear. But it's actually

788
00:37:06,502 --> 00:37:10,861
Speaker 1: not this story that has been in the news. It's

789
00:37:10,902 --> 00:37:13,381
Speaker 1: another couple and a guy called Paul. Yes.

790
00:37:13,462 --> 00:37:15,422
Speaker 5: So Paul and Karina have kind of been the Cinderella

791
00:37:15,422 --> 00:37:17,502
Speaker 5: love story of the season. They're the ones that everyone

792
00:37:17,542 --> 00:37:19,942
Speaker 5: really loves. They're very happy, and then last week we

793
00:37:19,982 --> 00:37:22,181
Speaker 5: opened up an episode with them having a very serious

794
00:37:22,181 --> 00:37:25,222
Speaker 5: conversation about the fact that he had punched a hole

795
00:37:25,302 --> 00:37:27,741
Speaker 5: in the door after they'd gotten into an argument in

796
00:37:27,822 --> 00:37:29,741
Speaker 5: front of another couple. So they were in an Uba

797
00:37:30,302 --> 00:37:33,102
Speaker 5: and song came on the radio and Caarina says, oh

798
00:37:33,142 --> 00:37:35,902
Speaker 5: I previously slept with the rapper of this song. And

799
00:37:35,902 --> 00:37:37,861
Speaker 5: then when they get home, they have an argument and

800
00:37:37,942 --> 00:37:39,981
Speaker 5: he punches a hole in the wall, and then they're

801
00:37:39,982 --> 00:37:41,582
Speaker 5: separated for the night by the producers.

802
00:37:42,142 --> 00:37:44,422
Speaker 1: So does that then play out the next day in

803
00:37:44,422 --> 00:37:48,022
Speaker 1: front of this panel of relationship experts.

804
00:37:47,622 --> 00:37:49,781
Speaker 5: So they kind of were reunited the next day. They

805
00:37:49,781 --> 00:37:52,221
Speaker 5: had a dinner party first where all the contestants kind

806
00:37:52,221 --> 00:37:54,181
Speaker 5: of weigh in on this very serious topic, and then

807
00:37:54,221 --> 00:37:56,341
Speaker 5: they did have the commitment ceremony, which is in front

808
00:37:56,382 --> 00:37:58,861
Speaker 5: of all of the experts. So that is where they

809
00:37:58,902 --> 00:38:01,062
Speaker 5: were called out for the behavior, and.

810
00:38:00,982 --> 00:38:03,782
Speaker 1: That's what Chill said. I felt disrespected, Yeah.

811
00:38:03,582 --> 00:38:05,622
Speaker 5: And so throughout even at the dinner party. In their

812
00:38:05,622 --> 00:38:08,701
Speaker 5: first conversation, he kind of yoged between like I feel ashamed,

813
00:38:08,741 --> 00:38:11,582
Speaker 5: but also like I was just angry and I had emotions,

814
00:38:11,622 --> 00:38:14,142
Speaker 5: and like he doesn't really take responsibility and he does

815
00:38:14,382 --> 00:38:17,261
Speaker 5: try to sneak back onto Karna the stutus of this.

816
00:38:17,342 --> 00:38:18,981
Speaker 1: Police are now involved, Is that right?

817
00:38:19,221 --> 00:38:21,941
Speaker 5: Yes, so police are investigating along with Safe Work because

818
00:38:21,942 --> 00:38:24,022
Speaker 5: obviously this is an incident between coworkers.

819
00:38:24,181 --> 00:38:27,142
Speaker 3: And what did the show actually do. Did it provide

820
00:38:27,181 --> 00:38:30,102
Speaker 3: a therapist? Did it provide the opportunity for either of them?

821
00:38:30,221 --> 00:38:31,142
Speaker 1: Was he ab to leave?

822
00:38:31,542 --> 00:38:33,422
Speaker 5: So he wasn't asked to leave, but he was put

823
00:38:33,542 --> 00:38:35,622
Speaker 5: on notice. So he was explained that, like, if he

824
00:38:35,661 --> 00:38:37,502
Speaker 5: wanted to move forward in the experiment, he has to

825
00:38:37,502 --> 00:38:40,781
Speaker 5: do counseling to ensure that he doesn't let himself do

826
00:38:40,862 --> 00:38:43,502
Speaker 5: it again. Was she offered counseling, Not that we know of,

827
00:38:43,661 --> 00:38:46,221
Speaker 5: but they do say that they have counseling available to everybody.

828
00:38:46,462 --> 00:38:49,022
Speaker 5: She was kind of explained to by the experts that,

829
00:38:49,062 --> 00:38:51,341
Speaker 5: like this was deeply troubling because she was defending his

830
00:38:51,422 --> 00:38:54,062
Speaker 5: actions in front of the experts and saying we're European

831
00:38:54,542 --> 00:38:56,701
Speaker 5: and they kind of said, that's not a justification.

832
00:38:57,142 --> 00:38:57,462
Speaker 2: Yeah.

833
00:38:57,542 --> 00:38:59,742
Speaker 1: Yeah. I wanted to just ask you one final question

834
00:38:59,781 --> 00:39:03,102
Speaker 1: about the dynamics, because even though the women are free

835
00:39:03,142 --> 00:39:06,982
Speaker 1: to leave or end, as you say, the experiment, if

836
00:39:06,982 --> 00:39:09,342
Speaker 1: they don't like their partner or they're concerned about their behavior,

837
00:39:09,661 --> 00:39:11,382
Speaker 1: that would then mean the end of their time on

838
00:39:11,422 --> 00:39:15,142
Speaker 1: the show, right and the end of their what opportunity

839
00:39:15,181 --> 00:39:17,221
Speaker 1: to win something become more famous.

840
00:39:17,542 --> 00:39:20,221
Speaker 5: Yes, So obviously this season we did have someone quit

841
00:39:20,302 --> 00:39:22,662
Speaker 5: in like their honeymoon phase, and they were allowed to return.

842
00:39:22,701 --> 00:39:24,142
Speaker 5: But for the most part, if you quit the show,

843
00:39:24,181 --> 00:39:26,462
Speaker 5: you don't get to come back. So most people have

844
00:39:26,542 --> 00:39:29,422
Speaker 5: quit their jobs. They've obviously come on here because they

845
00:39:29,422 --> 00:39:30,862
Speaker 5: see what it can do for you and the success

846
00:39:30,862 --> 00:39:32,381
Speaker 5: that you can have. So if you leave the show,

847
00:39:32,422 --> 00:39:34,741
Speaker 5: it does mean that you're cutting down your screen time

848
00:39:34,822 --> 00:39:36,902
Speaker 5: and like how much the public gets to see if

849
00:39:36,942 --> 00:39:38,302
Speaker 5: you and fall in love with you because.

850
00:39:38,062 --> 00:39:40,741
Speaker 1: You can turn into an influencer and have can you

851
00:39:40,741 --> 00:39:42,822
Speaker 1: have a lucrative career or is that just the carrot

852
00:39:42,822 --> 00:39:43,462
Speaker 1: that's dangled.

853
00:39:43,701 --> 00:39:45,582
Speaker 5: I think it's for most of them, just the carrot

854
00:39:45,622 --> 00:39:47,221
Speaker 5: that's dangled. They might get a few years of like

855
00:39:47,302 --> 00:39:50,582
Speaker 5: influencer deals and Instagram ads, but for the most part,

856
00:39:50,741 --> 00:39:53,741
Speaker 5: with the exception of maybe Jules Robinson and Martha Kelleftitis,

857
00:39:53,781 --> 00:39:56,222
Speaker 5: there's not many mass contestants who've turned it into something

858
00:39:56,261 --> 00:39:57,221
Speaker 5: long term.

859
00:39:57,582 --> 00:40:02,102
Speaker 1: That's incredibly helpful infam Currently, both couples are still on

860
00:40:02,142 --> 00:40:06,661
Speaker 1: the show. Yes, both are still investigating. Yes, yeah, after

861
00:40:06,701 --> 00:40:10,821
Speaker 1: the break we will unpack whether but reality TV is

862
00:40:10,862 --> 00:40:13,542
Speaker 1: the right place for those kinds of issues to be discussed.

863
00:40:14,062 --> 00:40:17,822
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

864
00:40:17,862 --> 00:40:21,901
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link

865
00:40:21,942 --> 00:40:23,662
Speaker 2: at the show notes to get us in your ears

866
00:40:23,942 --> 00:40:26,701
Speaker 2: five days a week. And a huge thank you to

867
00:40:26,862 --> 00:40:32,381
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers.

868
00:40:35,102 --> 00:40:39,582
Speaker 1: That was really interesting what Tina explained. And I'm of

869
00:40:39,661 --> 00:40:42,982
Speaker 1: two minds because the argument can be made that this

870
00:40:43,022 --> 00:40:47,861
Speaker 1: should not be glamorized normalized by being on reality TV,

871
00:40:48,022 --> 00:40:50,102
Speaker 1: or that it's exploited if But on the other hand,

872
00:40:50,382 --> 00:40:53,862
Speaker 1: is it a teachable moment? Is it good to highlight

873
00:40:54,382 --> 00:40:56,062
Speaker 1: how bad this behavior is?

874
00:40:56,302 --> 00:40:58,222
Speaker 3: There are a few issues at play. I think because

875
00:40:58,342 --> 00:41:00,902
Speaker 3: I look at this and my friends who are watching it,

876
00:41:01,022 --> 00:41:04,102
Speaker 3: the overwhelming question seems to be shouldn't Paul have just

877
00:41:04,142 --> 00:41:06,221
Speaker 3: been let go? I mean, any act of violence on

878
00:41:06,261 --> 00:41:08,221
Speaker 3: reality television, It's like, can we just.

879
00:41:08,622 --> 00:41:10,542
Speaker 1: Pause the guy that punched the walls? Yes, the guy

880
00:41:10,582 --> 00:41:11,702
Speaker 1: that had charge.

881
00:41:12,221 --> 00:41:14,902
Speaker 3: I think the context as well for punching the wall

882
00:41:14,942 --> 00:41:16,582
Speaker 3: was that that was her way out of the room,

883
00:41:17,102 --> 00:41:21,102
Speaker 3: so there was something kind of doubly threatening about it,

884
00:41:21,382 --> 00:41:24,821
Speaker 3: and like watching that in context.

885
00:41:24,422 --> 00:41:25,622
Speaker 1: It's incredibly threatening.

886
00:41:25,862 --> 00:41:28,582
Speaker 3: It's an incredibly threatening thing to do. It is escalating,

887
00:41:29,181 --> 00:41:30,582
Speaker 3: you know, it is an act of violence to have

888
00:41:30,622 --> 00:41:34,701
Speaker 3: someone It's really really menacing. And I would look at

889
00:41:34,701 --> 00:41:37,341
Speaker 3: that and go all right, especially in a country that

890
00:41:37,542 --> 00:41:41,661
Speaker 3: has the domestic violence epidemic that we do, can we

891
00:41:41,701 --> 00:41:44,782
Speaker 3: just draw a really firm line on this? To be clear,

892
00:41:45,102 --> 00:41:48,821
Speaker 3: this show has a dubious history with contestants who have

893
00:41:48,902 --> 00:41:51,861
Speaker 3: been accused of certain crimes, like there are examples of that.

894
00:41:52,701 --> 00:41:57,262
Speaker 3: On the other hand, there are particular forms of abuse,

895
00:41:57,462 --> 00:42:03,582
Speaker 3: emotional coercive control, psychological abuse that are almost impossible to explain.

896
00:42:04,062 --> 00:42:07,102
Speaker 3: And when you sit with your girlfriends and you say

897
00:42:07,582 --> 00:42:09,741
Speaker 3: it's just this argument and he says, I'm yelling, but

898
00:42:09,822 --> 00:42:11,822
Speaker 3: I don't think like it sounds.

899
00:42:11,862 --> 00:42:14,302
Speaker 1: So I used to have those conversations in my head.

900
00:42:14,422 --> 00:42:16,381
Speaker 1: I wouldn't even say them to a girlfriend because I'd

901
00:42:16,422 --> 00:42:17,022
Speaker 1: feel crazy.

902
00:42:17,102 --> 00:42:18,741
Speaker 3: And where do we see them? We don't because they

903
00:42:18,781 --> 00:42:23,301
Speaker 3: happen behind closed doors. This television show is one of

904
00:42:23,342 --> 00:42:27,941
Speaker 3: the most watched television shows ever created in Australia. Right

905
00:42:28,142 --> 00:42:31,502
Speaker 3: there are millions of people watching this. When you have

906
00:42:31,542 --> 00:42:35,022
Speaker 3: a country all looking in the same direction, is this

907
00:42:35,542 --> 00:42:38,142
Speaker 3: holding up a mirror and going here are the real

908
00:42:38,622 --> 00:42:41,461
Speaker 3: nuances and the early red flags and the early red

909
00:42:41,502 --> 00:42:47,422
Speaker 3: flags of a complicated, toxic relationship that not only do

910
00:42:47,502 --> 00:42:49,622
Speaker 3: you get to see it and go when I see

911
00:42:49,622 --> 00:42:51,742
Speaker 3: someone else in that, I don't like it. You're sitting

912
00:42:51,902 --> 00:42:55,022
Speaker 3: on the couch going, oh, all right, this is maybe

913
00:42:55,062 --> 00:42:58,261
Speaker 3: not so normal. The experts over the years, they used

914
00:42:58,302 --> 00:43:00,941
Speaker 3: to kind of just watch and not intervene so much.

915
00:43:00,982 --> 00:43:02,982
Speaker 3: Over the years they've started to intervene a little bit

916
00:43:02,982 --> 00:43:05,982
Speaker 3: more and provide more commentary. Even mel Schilling, who's one

917
00:43:05,982 --> 00:43:09,462
Speaker 3: of their psychologists, she's now on a podcast with Elizabeth Days.

918
00:43:09,542 --> 00:43:12,261
Speaker 3: I've been elevated as someone who who can give real

919
00:43:12,342 --> 00:43:15,942
Speaker 3: relationship advice. I think they've got better at calling it

920
00:43:15,942 --> 00:43:18,701
Speaker 3: out and going that is not appropriate. That is not

921
00:43:18,741 --> 00:43:21,582
Speaker 3: how you behave see that thing you did, don't do that.

922
00:43:22,382 --> 00:43:27,181
Speaker 3: So is there some couples or some behaviors that are

923
00:43:27,181 --> 00:43:30,622
Speaker 3: being held to account that we might not see otherwise, Holly,

924
00:43:30,661 --> 00:43:31,942
Speaker 3: is that a ridiculous position.

925
00:43:32,181 --> 00:43:34,142
Speaker 2: I don't think it's a ridiculous position because I think

926
00:43:34,142 --> 00:43:36,301
Speaker 2: one of the reasons why people like this show is

927
00:43:36,342 --> 00:43:38,622
Speaker 2: it reflects the very messy nature of a lot of

928
00:43:38,701 --> 00:43:41,941
Speaker 2: human relationships that don't always go exactly you know by

929
00:43:41,942 --> 00:43:44,301
Speaker 2: the book, Like he said something disrespectful to me. I

930
00:43:44,422 --> 00:43:46,422
Speaker 2: left him immediately, Like that's not how a lot of

931
00:43:46,422 --> 00:43:50,062
Speaker 2: relationships go. And I know exactly why people really like that.

932
00:43:50,462 --> 00:43:54,181
Speaker 2: But I am intensely irritated by the fact that New

933
00:43:54,221 --> 00:43:58,822
Speaker 2: South Wales Police, who get four hundred domestic violence calls

934
00:43:58,862 --> 00:44:02,502
Speaker 2: every single day and now investigating an incident on a

935
00:44:02,582 --> 00:44:07,062
Speaker 2: ridiculous television show where people deliberately cast men with anger

936
00:44:07,102 --> 00:44:09,381
Speaker 2: issues and put them in situations that will trigger those

937
00:44:09,582 --> 00:44:12,142
Speaker 2: anger issues for drama and ratings, because at the end

938
00:44:12,142 --> 00:44:14,781
Speaker 2: of the day, married at first sight for all of

939
00:44:14,822 --> 00:44:18,701
Speaker 2: it's like this is an experiment, it is a ratings machine.

940
00:44:19,302 --> 00:44:22,381
Speaker 2: They do this deliberately. We have talked a million times

941
00:44:22,422 --> 00:44:24,861
Speaker 2: about how you need drama and conflict, and drama and

942
00:44:24,902 --> 00:44:28,062
Speaker 2: conflict in relationships can be kind of innocent. You know,

943
00:44:28,142 --> 00:44:30,341
Speaker 2: did he say my bumbluck being in these pants? But

944
00:44:30,382 --> 00:44:32,221
Speaker 2: they're not that that could even not be innocent in

945
00:44:32,221 --> 00:44:34,301
Speaker 2: this situation, or it could be cheating, or it could

946
00:44:34,302 --> 00:44:37,341
Speaker 2: be whatever. But domestic violence surely has to be a

947
00:44:37,382 --> 00:44:40,102
Speaker 2: line that we don't cross just for ratings, because we

948
00:44:40,142 --> 00:44:42,941
Speaker 2: can talk about teachable moments. But the problem is these

949
00:44:42,942 --> 00:44:45,942
Speaker 2: men are being rewarded, they're being made famous, they're being

950
00:44:46,022 --> 00:44:49,782
Speaker 2: displayed as being hot and exciting. The whole reason why Adrian,

951
00:44:49,862 --> 00:44:52,181
Speaker 2: who should never have been cast. I mean, I know

952
00:44:52,261 --> 00:44:54,741
Speaker 2: that he was cleared of those charges, but that still

953
00:44:54,822 --> 00:44:57,901
Speaker 2: seems like a very dangerous choice for producers to then

954
00:44:57,942 --> 00:45:00,502
Speaker 2: put him with a young single mother who has a

955
00:45:00,542 --> 00:45:04,421
Speaker 2: young child. That still seems like a dangerous choice. Right,

956
00:45:05,062 --> 00:45:07,022
Speaker 2: He should never have been cast. And the reason that

957
00:45:07,062 --> 00:45:09,342
Speaker 2: they cast him is because they knew there would be drama,

958
00:45:09,582 --> 00:45:11,382
Speaker 2: they knew there would be excitement. They're hoping it wouldn't

959
00:45:11,382 --> 00:45:15,741
Speaker 2: be dangerous drama and criminal drama. But it's deliberately stoking

960
00:45:15,781 --> 00:45:17,901
Speaker 2: this And that's the thing that I find really hard

961
00:45:17,942 --> 00:45:20,821
Speaker 2: about this show is it's disingenuousness because I watch it

962
00:45:20,862 --> 00:45:22,982
Speaker 2: sometimes I sit with my friend at the beginning and

963
00:45:23,022 --> 00:45:25,741
Speaker 2: Adrian comes in and we go, oh, he seems like

964
00:45:25,781 --> 00:45:27,462
Speaker 2: a nice guy, or actually, you don't, do you go

965
00:45:27,582 --> 00:45:30,982
Speaker 2: he seems like a troubled dude. In the first five minutes.

966
00:45:31,221 --> 00:45:33,821
Speaker 2: I wonder what he's like. The producers know what he's like.

967
00:45:34,062 --> 00:45:36,821
Speaker 2: They know all these things. They know exactly who they're

968
00:45:36,862 --> 00:45:40,701
Speaker 2: putting with, who and why. So teachable moments maybe, but

969
00:45:40,902 --> 00:45:44,261
Speaker 2: also dangerous manipulation, rewarding bad behavior.

970
00:45:44,661 --> 00:45:47,622
Speaker 1: Yes, well you say rewarding bad behavior or is he

971
00:45:47,741 --> 00:45:52,822
Speaker 1: being held accountable publicly shamed? Like that stuff's not happening

972
00:45:52,862 --> 00:45:55,462
Speaker 1: behind closed doors, because if it was, I know that.

973
00:45:55,902 --> 00:45:59,622
Speaker 1: When I was in an emotionally abusive relationship, I didn't

974
00:45:59,622 --> 00:46:01,582
Speaker 1: have the words for it. I thought it was just

975
00:46:01,661 --> 00:46:04,821
Speaker 1: me and him. I didn't know about coercid control or

976
00:46:04,862 --> 00:46:06,622
Speaker 1: gas lighting or any of those things. If I'd have

977
00:46:06,701 --> 00:46:10,261
Speaker 1: seen it reflected on a TV show, that would have

978
00:46:10,261 --> 00:46:11,462
Speaker 1: been a game changer for me.

979
00:46:11,582 --> 00:46:13,742
Speaker 2: I get that, and I think it's a really valid point.

980
00:46:13,942 --> 00:46:16,982
Speaker 2: But let's just remember what happens after this, Like these

981
00:46:17,022 --> 00:46:20,301
Speaker 2: guys then become you know, they're going to nightclub openings.

982
00:46:20,582 --> 00:46:23,822
Speaker 2: They're low level influencers. There's an only fans career waiting

983
00:46:23,862 --> 00:46:26,741
Speaker 2: for you. There are people on the show and off

984
00:46:26,741 --> 00:46:29,381
Speaker 2: the show debating whether or not they're good dudes, whether

985
00:46:29,462 --> 00:46:30,582
Speaker 2: or not that's okay, Well.

986
00:46:30,462 --> 00:46:32,102
Speaker 1: You know what you're getting if you date them?

987
00:46:32,502 --> 00:46:33,341
Speaker 2: Oh do you that?

988
00:46:33,661 --> 00:46:36,901
Speaker 3: I do think as well. With reality TV, in order

989
00:46:37,062 --> 00:46:39,261
Speaker 3: for it to keep growing, it needs to escalate. So

990
00:46:39,382 --> 00:46:41,502
Speaker 3: it started. It was quite innocent the first season, and

991
00:46:41,502 --> 00:46:43,181
Speaker 3: then we went to a cheating scandal, and then there

992
00:46:43,181 --> 00:46:45,022
Speaker 3: needed to be two cheating scandals. And now you can

993
00:46:45,062 --> 00:46:46,502
Speaker 3: set your watch to it and go, all right, it's

994
00:46:46,502 --> 00:46:48,902
Speaker 3: episode three, where are the seeds of a cheating scandal?

995
00:46:49,462 --> 00:46:51,462
Speaker 3: We shouldn't be surprised that this is escalated to New

996
00:46:51,502 --> 00:46:54,181
Speaker 3: South Wales police because where else is there to go?

997
00:46:54,342 --> 00:46:58,102
Speaker 1: Imagine, imagine you said those police. It must just be like, really,

998
00:46:58,502 --> 00:47:00,382
Speaker 1: you think that's bad for the show, bad for the

999
00:47:00,422 --> 00:47:03,701
Speaker 1: show's brand, or just well the real is more advertising.

1000
00:47:04,022 --> 00:47:06,861
Speaker 3: It's great for the ratings. Were talking about it, Yeah,

1001
00:47:06,902 --> 00:47:11,382
Speaker 3: the ratings are just growing and growing. So the commentary

1002
00:47:11,422 --> 00:47:14,942
Speaker 3: will continue, the feminist commentary or the commentary about the ethics.

1003
00:47:15,022 --> 00:47:17,781
Speaker 3: But the reality is that every season gets bigger and

1004
00:47:17,781 --> 00:47:20,461
Speaker 3: bigger and bigger, So why would you wind it down.

1005
00:47:20,582 --> 00:47:22,942
Speaker 2: If you do not approve and you think it's dangerous,

1006
00:47:22,982 --> 00:47:25,422
Speaker 2: don't watch it. There is only one thing you can do.

1007
00:47:25,502 --> 00:47:27,221
Speaker 2: Vote with your wallet, and your wallet, in this case,

1008
00:47:27,261 --> 00:47:28,022
Speaker 2: your eyeballs.

1009
00:47:28,302 --> 00:47:30,781
Speaker 3: I know for some particularly women who are watching this,

1010
00:47:31,142 --> 00:47:34,301
Speaker 3: it's been really confronting because you might recognize some of

1011
00:47:34,342 --> 00:47:37,782
Speaker 3: the behavior. So we have some resources in our show notes.

1012
00:47:37,781 --> 00:47:40,661
Speaker 3: You can call one eight hundred respect or for other resources,

1013
00:47:40,781 --> 00:47:41,822
Speaker 3: just look at our show notes.

1014
00:47:42,701 --> 00:47:43,822
Speaker 2: That's it for our show today.

1015
00:47:43,982 --> 00:47:44,742
Speaker 1: Gosh, it was big.

1016
00:47:44,822 --> 00:47:47,381
Speaker 2: It's a big show. It was a great show, great show.

1017
00:47:48,542 --> 00:47:52,181
Speaker 1: It was a goodtual. We were outstanding. I think it

1018
00:47:52,261 --> 00:47:55,902
Speaker 1: was one of our best as a podcast.

1019
00:47:56,102 --> 00:47:58,982
Speaker 2: As Megan's mimosas, That's what I wanted to know. She

1020
00:47:59,102 --> 00:48:01,062
Speaker 2: was using very posh champagne for those mimosas.

1021
00:48:01,102 --> 00:48:02,301
Speaker 1: By the way, she one.

1022
00:48:02,261 --> 00:48:05,382
Speaker 2: Of knows you use crap prosecco for mimosas and you

1023
00:48:05,462 --> 00:48:08,942
Speaker 2: use really good champagne if people are actually drinking the champagne.

1024
00:48:08,942 --> 00:48:11,301
Speaker 1: You, meganis you know? Had it made this show better?

1025
00:48:11,542 --> 00:48:12,542
Speaker 1: Some sprinkled flowers.

1026
00:48:14,181 --> 00:48:16,062
Speaker 2: A massive thank you to all of you out loud

1027
00:48:16,062 --> 00:48:17,462
Speaker 2: as for being here with us, and we'll be back

1028
00:48:17,462 --> 00:48:18,302
Speaker 2: in your ears tomorrow.

1029
00:48:18,542 --> 00:48:20,902
Speaker 1: But if you are looking for a little bit of

1030
00:48:20,902 --> 00:48:24,622
Speaker 1: Oscars goss, we did a subscriber episode with a full debrief,

1031
00:48:24,661 --> 00:48:28,862
Speaker 1: including an honestory cap of the Red Carpet, Adrian Brodie's

1032
00:48:28,902 --> 00:48:34,022
Speaker 1: obnoxiously long speech, and Demi Moore's really bad night. A

1033
00:48:34,102 --> 00:48:37,822
Speaker 1: linkers always will be in the show notes. Bye bye.

1034
00:48:38,582 --> 00:48:41,502
Speaker 3: Shout out to any Mum and MEA subscribers listening. If

1035
00:48:41,542 --> 00:48:43,502
Speaker 3: you love the show and you want to support us,

1036
00:48:43,741 --> 00:48:46,661
Speaker 3: subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very best way to

1037
00:48:46,741 --> 00:48:49,142
Speaker 3: do so. There's a link in the episode description.