Speaker 1: That's something I definitely explore in the book is that
Speaker 1: like scarcity mindset as women, that we're not going to
Speaker 1: get these opportunities again, that we've fought tooth and nail
Speaker 1: to have a seat at the table and if we
Speaker 1: step away for any reason, but especially to have children,
Speaker 1: but those opportunities will dry up.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Seize the Yay Podcast.
Speaker 3: Busy and happy are not the same thing. We too
Speaker 3: rarely question what makes the heart seeing. We work, then
Speaker 3: we rest, but rarely we play and often don't realize
Speaker 3: there's more than one way. So this is a platform to.
Speaker 2: Hear and explore the stories of those who found lives
Speaker 2: they adore, the good.
Speaker 3: Bad and ugly.
Speaker 2: The best and worst day will bear all the facets
Speaker 2: of Seizing your Yeay. I'm Sarah Davidson or a spoonful
Speaker 2: of Sarah, a lawyer turned funentrepreneur who swapped the suits
Speaker 2: and heels to co found matcha Maiden and matcha Milk.
Speaker 2: Bark Czya is a series of conversations on finding a
Speaker 2: life you love and exploring the self doubt, challenge, joy
Speaker 2: and fulfillment along the way. Hallo, Beautiful neighborhood and Welcome
Speaker 2: to the first episode of our new parenthood segment, Seize
Speaker 2: the Baby. I know I can't help myself if you
Speaker 2: guys all know me by now, but it just makes
Speaker 2: me smile every time I say it or read it,
Speaker 2: which is very on brands. I'm going to stick with it.
Speaker 2: I just felt I'd been copying and pasting some ted
Speaker 2: talk length answers on socials about various aspects of adjusting
Speaker 2: to mum life, and I felt that the fuller answers
Speaker 2: that I've been giving people needed somewhere to.
Speaker 4: Live, so it was easy to refer to.
Speaker 2: But I also wanted to signal more clearly to those
Speaker 2: of you who aren't just interested in this parenthood content,
Speaker 2: to show you what's heavily parent related and then what isn't.
Speaker 2: The most hotly asked questions so far have been around sleep, breastfeeding,
Speaker 2: and the juggle as a working mum, but I'm going
Speaker 2: to start with the latter because it's particularly timely for
Speaker 2: two reasons. Firstly, I personally felt my management of the
Speaker 2: juggle has taken a very steep dive over the past
Speaker 2: couple of weeks. You might have been able to tell
Speaker 2: from my socials, so it's very close to home right now,
Speaker 2: and you know, I love to get a bit vulnerable
Speaker 2: on here, particularly in real time when it's still happening,
Speaker 2: and you're getting kind of how I really feel, rather
Speaker 2: than hearing about it when it's all resolved. Secondly, one
Speaker 2: of the mum role models that I turned to often,
Speaker 2: and incidentally also my manager, Genevieve Day, who is in
Speaker 2: herself a huge part of how I maintain any kind
Speaker 2: of juggle, just released her brand new book called The Juggle,
Speaker 2: featuring interviews with some of our very own incredible past
Speaker 2: guests on the topic. So a conversation on the Juggle
Speaker 2: just seemed meant to be. I've covered parts of how
Speaker 2: I've been balancing work and mum life in various episodes
Speaker 2: so far, and I actually recall my answer in an
Speaker 2: earlier episode being that I haven't really felt an identity
Speaker 2: split or pull between my mum or work identity yet
Speaker 2: jokes on me how quickly our babies grow, but also
Speaker 2: how quickly you can go from relatively copy and high
Speaker 2: on indoor for and hormones too suddenly not so much.
Speaker 2: And I've recently felt much more of a split between
Speaker 2: wanting more time for my career but also wanting to
Speaker 2: be with Teddy twenty four seven at the same time.
Speaker 2: It's like that meme where you kind of want to
Speaker 2: be a city goal but living in the country but
Speaker 2: working full time, but also meditating all day and doing nothing,
Speaker 2: and like, that's me. I'm so confused, and that's the
Speaker 2: juggle that's feeling that split. It definitely is happening, and
Speaker 2: the way I resolve that tension changes every day. And
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry to those who only listened to the
Speaker 2: earlier episode what I said that I didn't have that struggle,
Speaker 2: because I absolutely do. One thing I've really had to
Speaker 2: grapple with is letting go of perfectionism at work now
Speaker 2: that there's much less time to play with. So sadly
Speaker 2: you don't get the nice new intro that I was
Speaker 2: hoping to organize to accompany the new segment. I was
Speaker 2: going to do our CZ eight. People call it the
Speaker 2: CZA rap, which is so funny to me. It's not
Speaker 2: a rap, but I was going to do a new
Speaker 2: one for this new segment. But you'd be waiting all
Speaker 2: year for the segment otherwise, so you're just going to
Speaker 2: have to stick with the original. I also feel like
Speaker 2: I got so distracted by Jen's wisdom. In this one,
Speaker 2: we kind of venture into sleep and feeding anyway, and
Speaker 2: then I'm not sure that I clearly laid out my
Speaker 2: specific version of the juggle to answer your questions about
Speaker 2: like the structure of the day and Nanny's and all that.
Speaker 2: It literally makes me want to come out in hives
Speaker 2: not answering questions because I hate not doing things properly.
Speaker 2: But again, that's the juggle of just doing my best
Speaker 2: and hoping that that represents in itself exactly what this
Speaker 2: episode is all about. I'm just going to put it
Speaker 2: out anyway. I hope you enjoy it, and please let
Speaker 2: me know your thoughts on sees, the baby and what
Speaker 2: you want next. I'm pretty sure the next episode will
Speaker 2: be on sleep, because there have just been so many
Speaker 2: questions about that and it's very current for us. But
Speaker 2: of course I will also include links to Gen's amazing
Speaker 2: book in the show notes. If you don't already know
Speaker 2: by the end of this episode, you'll well and truly
Speaker 2: know why you need a copy. And it's such an
Speaker 2: incredible guide on everything related to the Juggle. Jen my love,
Speaker 2: welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me back on what
Speaker 1: an honor.
Speaker 2: It's an honor for me. We've been through so many
Speaker 2: chapters of our life together. But I mean, for the
Speaker 2: show's purposes, it's been four years.
Speaker 4: So if you.
Speaker 2: Guys haven't listened to that episode, I will include the
Speaker 2: link in the show notes so you can get the
Speaker 2: background of how Jen started the Incredible day management and
Speaker 2: next of kin management, how we became friends. I think
Speaker 2: you've managed me for like ten years now or something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going up to a decade, which is insane,
Speaker 1: and I love it because you're like a bit of
Speaker 1: a post a child. I'm like, this is what we do.
Speaker 1: Look at Sarah Avidson.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm also like the irony of the fact that
Speaker 2: we're talking about the juggle. Whenever anyone asks me how
Speaker 2: I juggle everything, I'm always like, Genevieve Day, incredible manager,
Speaker 2: my dear friend and now mum role model. And I
Speaker 2: think that's the beautiful thing about having a podcast. It's
Speaker 2: been like, oh my gosh, nearly six years and you
Speaker 2: get to trace through people's different chapters, but also your
Speaker 2: relationship with those people and how it kind of evolves
Speaker 2: over time.
Speaker 1: It's so true because you're right. It's almost like as
Speaker 1: a founder and a business owner, you have the one
Speaker 1: business story that you tell a lot, right, and often
Speaker 1: like how did you get started? And for me personally,
Speaker 1: I have the same feel that I give, but I'm like,
Speaker 1: so nine years ago there was a change in the
Speaker 1: media landscape and I was one of the first in
Speaker 1: Australia started a talent management agency Digital First Talent And
Speaker 1: then I'm kind of like, what about that evolution? And
Speaker 1: so often those stories don't get told of like what
Speaker 1: happens next?
Speaker 2: Well, that's exactly what we're here to do today, to
Speaker 2: catch everyone up on everything we've done since the last episode,
Speaker 2: but particularly becoming mothers together and bonding over that elusive
Speaker 2: search for balance and that ongoing juggle. And for so
Speaker 2: many reasons, you are the perfect guest for this particular
Speaker 2: topic in this new segment because since we last caught
Speaker 2: up September twenty twenty two, you got married September twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three, you had your beautiful boy, Henry, and I'll
Speaker 2: folog you six months later. September twenty twenty four has
Speaker 2: just passed, marking one year of you navigating the juggle,
Speaker 2: and you celebrated by birthing your third baby, your incredible
Speaker 2: new book that just launches this week now actually named
Speaker 2: The Juggle.
Speaker 4: How are you feeling?
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I love things happening in September. It
Speaker 1: seems to be my month. It's been amazing, And it's
Speaker 1: so funny because everyone spoke about like that one year
Speaker 1: milestone with Henry of like things will calm down then,
Speaker 1: or you know, you'll reflect back and you'll miss those moments.
Speaker 1: And for me, I'm like, I'm enjoying it the most
Speaker 1: right now with that one year mark, and then with
Speaker 1: the book. It was so special to kind of launch
Speaker 1: that in that same stage of life of being like,
Speaker 1: I mean, my rhythm now with parenting and motherhood and work,
Speaker 1: and then I'm launching this book talking about all those things,
Speaker 1: and so kind of a poetic timing ought to happen
Speaker 1: in that September chunk.
Speaker 2: Sel efficient and neat as you always are, and I've
Speaker 2: just loved it. We're, you know, six months behind you
Speaker 2: in motherhood. You've always been such a big career role
Speaker 2: model for me in building business and being such an
Speaker 2: a type personality. But this next evolution of us has
Speaker 2: been me copying and pasting everything you do as a
Speaker 2: mother and watching you juggle motherhood with business. I can't
Speaker 2: say how many times I've called you a voice noted,
Speaker 2: asking questions about Nanni's and burnout and working in the
Speaker 2: same business as your husband and all of those.
Speaker 4: Kinds of things.
Speaker 2: But now it's not just me who could access all
Speaker 2: your fells of wisdom, it's everyone because you've collated it
Speaker 2: all into this brilliant book, which is just so exciting
Speaker 2: because I think the biggest thing in all of this,
Speaker 2: the biggest thing I've learned so far in motherhood, is
Speaker 2: just how important it is not to feel alone and
Speaker 2: realize that you aren't alone.
Speaker 4: We're all going.
Speaker 1: Through it one hundred percent. And you're very sweet to
Speaker 1: say that. I think I realized during this whole motherhood
Speaker 1: journey that I'm someone that always wears a heart on
Speaker 1: my sleeve. I have no qualm saying I'm fucking this up,
Speaker 1: or like I'm finding this really hard, and I realized
Speaker 1: it in motherhood. A lot of people don't feel comfortable
Speaker 1: sharing that or saying that I was so happy to
Speaker 1: be open at the time and say his sleep is terrible,
Speaker 1: or like I'm finding it really challenging. To relate to
Speaker 1: this beautiful blog that can't do anything yet. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think that was really great for them for my
Speaker 1: friends going through it or about to go through it,
Speaker 1: like Okay, cool, you're finding this hard to thank goodness
Speaker 1: you're saying that.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I really felt confident to be open about it
Speaker 1: through the journey of the book itself because I had
Speaker 1: a lot of these conversations with these incredible women featured,
Speaker 1: who are the likes of Steph clais Smith and Frank
Speaker 1: Body's Jess Hatsis and the memos, Pomie Sibbons and Rachel
Speaker 1: Corbett from the Project and these incredible women that I
Speaker 1: know professionally and work with them and love them. They
Speaker 1: were all so candid with me about their own struggles
Speaker 1: and their own journey too. And that's kind of really
Speaker 1: where the book came from, is I was having these
Speaker 1: copies with them being like, how the hell are you
Speaker 1: doing it? I'm pregnant, I'm terrified of having issues between
Speaker 1: Korea and motherhood, and am I going to give up
Speaker 1: everything I've worked so hard to build? And they were
Speaker 1: so wonderful and sharing their story with me that I'm like,
Speaker 1: this has to live somewhere for other women to be
Speaker 1: exactly like you say, not feel so alone themselves.
Speaker 2: And it's funny that you mentioned poetic timing because we're
Speaker 2: sitting down to record this at a very different chapter
Speaker 2: for the podcast where I am only recording fortnightly because
Speaker 2: that's all the juggle allows. And the new segment is
Speaker 2: partly to answer the fact that I've had more dms
Speaker 2: than ever about juggling and work and leaving Teddy and pumping.
Speaker 2: I actually feel less equipped than I ever have to
Speaker 2: answer them because the last couple of months have probably
Speaker 2: been the hardest I've had since he's been born. In
Speaker 2: terms of the juggle. You and I have both found
Speaker 2: different parts of our journey quite difficult, and you know,
Speaker 2: we'll go into a little bit more about my juggle later,
Speaker 2: but for you, I know you found that early newborn
Speaker 2: phase extremely challenging and difficult to sort of say that,
Speaker 2: whereas I was one of those people who probably made
Speaker 2: you feel bad when you were in that phase because
Speaker 2: I was sort of like, oh, it's so much easier
Speaker 2: that I thought, Oh, it's just so magical, which is
Speaker 2: genuinely how I felt. It was really magical. I think
Speaker 2: I just had really sort of realistic expectations being one
Speaker 2: of the last of my friendship group to have a baby,
Speaker 2: So I sort of found the juggle a lot easier
Speaker 2: at the beginning because the people in my workplace were you.
Speaker 2: You were so good at navigating it all. I had
Speaker 2: so much advice and support. But it's, you know, the
Speaker 2: past couple of weeks that I've had a massive breakdown.
Speaker 2: So it's just so funny that this is when this
Speaker 2: particular episode is all coming together. And I'm so excited
Speaker 2: to share your book because I read the early manuscript
Speaker 2: when I was going through all this Oh my god,
Speaker 2: what have I done? All that fear that we're used
Speaker 2: to dealing with in our careers but not in motherhood before.
Speaker 1: And it feels so personal. When someone else is saying like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm choosing to do this with my baby, or I
Speaker 1: found this really easy, it feels like they're saying personally, well,
Speaker 1: you're a bad mum, or that you're a terrible person,
Speaker 1: and it doesn't mean that at all. And I think
Speaker 1: a large part of it for me too, using the
Speaker 1: book as a resource, Like I went to my mother's
Speaker 1: group and the women there were so gorgeous and so
Speaker 1: friendly and warm, but they were all in their own
Speaker 1: journeys and they most of them had like twelve months
Speaker 1: off work, which wasn't my narrative, Like I had to
Speaker 1: go back super early, and I didn't really feel seen
Speaker 1: in those circles, and so I felt alone, like am
Speaker 1: I doing the right thing? But then I go back
Speaker 1: to the book and the conversations people are saying, yeah,
Speaker 1: I went back at three months, or I went back earlier,
Speaker 1: or I was emailing from the delivery room, and you're like, okay, cool,
Speaker 1: they're eating steptrum there, like it's okay to fall somewhere
Speaker 1: in that spectrum and we're all worried about doing the
Speaker 1: wrong thing right. But then everyone has different like ebbs
Speaker 1: and flows of their rhythm with it, of what they're
Speaker 1: going to thrive out, what they're going to challenge, and yeah,
Speaker 1: it's crazy, and it's so funny that ours definitely fell
Speaker 1: on different sides of that pendulum.
Speaker 2: Suite, and I think it is so it's I've mentioned
Speaker 2: a couple of times before that I actually was even
Speaker 2: hesitant to start a sort of motherhood, maternity, pregnancy, postpartum
Speaker 2: segment of the podcast because it is such a sensitive area.
Speaker 2: It's like we're all okay for the most part at letting,
Speaker 2: you know, choose your own adventure, choose your own pathway.
Speaker 2: We're not as judgmental about other people's choices in their
Speaker 2: food or their exercise. We're sort of happy to accept,
Speaker 2: you know, everyone does their own thing, and what suits
Speaker 2: you won't suit someone else. But for some reason, I
Speaker 2: think because parenthood is so personal, it's like the one
Speaker 2: area where there's the unsolicited advice, how offended we all get,
Speaker 2: Like we take everything personally even when it's not meant
Speaker 2: that way, but then sometimes it is meant that way,
Speaker 2: Like it's.
Speaker 4: Just so sensitive.
Speaker 2: So I almost didn't want to do this because I
Speaker 2: didn't want to me sharing my anecdotal journey to feel
Speaker 2: like judgment towards anyone else. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: I think having the conversations is better than not having them.
Speaker 2: So really, I want to talk to you about going
Speaker 2: back to that very early decision to write this book.
Speaker 2: This was mid pregnancy for you, and the juggle had
Speaker 2: already started because the last job that we did together
Speaker 2: in your pregnancy was you hosting a TV series at
Speaker 2: thirty nine weeks. Yeah, why did I do so, and
Speaker 2: then you continued to write an entire book during your
Speaker 2: like early sort of first months of motherhood. So talk
Speaker 2: to us about, yeah, the beginning of I'm going to
Speaker 2: write a book in this time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, I'm insane. Let's just put that out better.
Speaker 1: Set the tone that clearly I put so much pressure
Speaker 1: on myself to do things, and I think a lot
Speaker 1: of it was a pressure I felt to prove to
Speaker 1: myself and to everyone that like, this isn't going to
Speaker 1: stop me, Like I'm not going to be one of
Speaker 1: those women who has a baby, and that's a full identity,
Speaker 1: and that's no shade to women who do have that either,
Speaker 1: but it was just I felt that I had to
Speaker 1: prove to everyone that I can still do it all,
Speaker 1: which is complete bs as well. And I was even
Speaker 1: feeling that way in pregnancy because a lot of part
Speaker 1: of my job is to be front facing and then
Speaker 1: also to sign new talent and then go out and
Speaker 1: get new clients for us, and I thought, I have
Speaker 1: to show them that I'm still devoted even though I'm pregnant.
Speaker 1: And it was a bit of a barrier during my
Speaker 1: pregnancy because I was a physical reminder that I was
Speaker 1: about to step away, right. I would rock up to
Speaker 1: these meetings there's coffee catchups with brands, a massive belly,
Speaker 1: and they'd be like why are you here? Literally that's
Speaker 1: what was like vibat and what someone said. They were like,
Speaker 1: what are you doing here? And I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: only thirty six weeks. This is fine. With the TV
Speaker 1: show as well, like when they asked me to host it,
Speaker 1: I had a genuine fear they would never ask me
Speaker 1: again if I said no. And that's something that I
Speaker 1: definitely explore in the book, is that like scarcity mindset
Speaker 1: as women that we're not going to get these opportunities again,
Speaker 1: that we've fought tooth and nail to have a seat
Speaker 1: at the table and if we step away for any reason,
Speaker 1: but especially to have children. But those opportunities were dry up,
Speaker 1: and so I wasn't willing to say no. I filmed
Speaker 1: that and I was literally nine months pregnant, and I
Speaker 1: look ridiculous. Everyone was very kind on the day, but
Speaker 1: like looking back, I'm like, oh, that's that's a very
Speaker 1: pregnant person on the camera there.
Speaker 2: You looked glorious, but you definitely looked like uncomfortable, like
Speaker 2: physically uncomfortable. You were looking sort of like now, Like
Speaker 2: at the time, I didn't know what thirty nine weeks
Speaker 2: pregnant felt like, and I actually didn't even make it
Speaker 2: to thirty nine weeks, which just shows how far along.
Speaker 4: You actually were.
Speaker 2: But like I did a similar equivalent in that I
Speaker 2: worked up to thirty seven and a half and then
Speaker 2: gave birth at thirty eight yeah, and had the exact
Speaker 2: same sort of feeling of, well, I have to be
Speaker 2: shown that this isn't getting in my way because I
Speaker 2: want people to still keep booking me. So from the
Speaker 2: minute I was visible pregnant, I was like, I almost
Speaker 2: need to slow down less than when I wasn't visibly pregnant,
Speaker 2: because now I have to be out there. And I
Speaker 2: think one of the common themes that came out through
Speaker 2: all your beautiful guests in the book was that when
Speaker 2: you're a business owner, the one thing that's different from
Speaker 2: maternity leave. And I want to talk about like the
Speaker 2: mechanics of the juggle and how people actually structure their
Speaker 2: leave and how much they take and when they do
Speaker 2: nannies and stuff, because that's also sort of really important,
Speaker 2: But the common theme is that when you have maternity
Speaker 2: locked in. There's at least an element of security that
Speaker 2: you can face motherhood as motherhood, and then your job
Speaker 2: is kind of there at the end you come back
Speaker 2: to it, and yes there's identity splits and whatever, but
Speaker 2: when you work for yourself, it is such a momentum game.
Speaker 2: You sort of think if I get off this like
Speaker 2: roller coaster, then I'm never going to get back on
Speaker 2: and everyone's going to hate me, and even now you.
Speaker 2: I literally email guys just to be fully transparent. I
Speaker 2: email Jen once or twice a week saying I physically
Speaker 2: don't feel well enough to do this job or go
Speaker 2: to this event because you know, Teddy hasn't been sleeping,
Speaker 2: but I think I should because what if everyone thinks
Speaker 2: that I can't do this as a mum. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I kind of almost delegate to you the like pros
Speaker 2: cons list because I feel like I'm irrational and I'm like, Jed,
Speaker 2: do you think I'm going to drop off the face
Speaker 2: of the earth if I don't say yes to this thing?
Speaker 4: Or is it going to be okay? And I'm still
Speaker 4: going through that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's such a valid thought process. And one
Speaker 1: thing that came up is that almost every single woman
Speaker 1: I spoke to for the book felt that way of like,
Speaker 1: I've worked my whole life, a whole career to build
Speaker 1: this momentum, and I'm terrifory of stepping away from it.
Speaker 1: Then the beautiful thing was on the other side they
Speaker 1: realized that actually that doesn't always happen, and that well,
Speaker 1: you know, you can't do everything the way you used to.
Speaker 1: And for me, it also you know, accumulated in a
Speaker 1: sense that I couldn't work as many hours like I
Speaker 1: used to just look at possibilities as just a little
Speaker 1: bit of hard work. So I was like, you know,
Speaker 1: I can do xyz. I'll have takes is ten more
Speaker 1: hours of me this week, but I don't have those
Speaker 1: hours anymore. And then I realized that, like, I didn't
Speaker 1: actually miss out on anything by having a baby and
Speaker 1: stepping away, but the pressure is still there and proving
Speaker 1: myself and I almost now have the flip side where
Speaker 1: I'm so hesitant to post too much baby content online
Speaker 1: or even on the days that I might finish at
Speaker 1: three pm and pick my sign up from daycare early
Speaker 1: and go to the park, I'm like, oh shit, if
Speaker 1: I post this online and people thinking I'm not committed
Speaker 1: to my job or my business. So again it's the
Speaker 1: optics almost in the reverse. It's like I don't want
Speaker 1: to seem like I'm not committed to my work enough.
Speaker 1: But then if I'm shown to be out at night
Speaker 1: at work events and going to things and traveling to
Speaker 1: Sydney for jobs I sometimes have to do, then everyone's like, well,
Speaker 1: why don't you with your baby? So I feel like
Speaker 1: that never goes away. But I definitely learned that like
Speaker 1: that pressure and that scarcity mindset does ease up because
Speaker 1: there's those clear examples that like, actually, you're going to
Speaker 1: be okay. And I wish I could really time travel
Speaker 1: and tell myself that I know you'd be similar. But
Speaker 1: I've done things where, you know, I did a Channel
Speaker 1: seven news thing about social media, and I had my
Speaker 1: mum and Henry in the next room, and the journalists
Speaker 1: were so understanding that like if he cried out and
Speaker 1: made noyiage, like it's okay, We'll just recorded again, like
Speaker 1: we know you have like a I think he was
Speaker 1: seven weeks old at that stage or something. And we
Speaker 1: actually signed some incredible new talent to the agency who
Speaker 1: were mums themselves, and they loved the fact that I
Speaker 1: understood them, and so it almost became like a superpower
Speaker 1: that I could tap into that extra empathy and understanding.
Speaker 1: So while I was so afraid of missing out of things,
Speaker 1: it then actually became so much more gained on the
Speaker 1: other side of that. Plus you get a beautiful baby.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I also love that you word it in
Speaker 2: the book, as we focus a lot on losing our
Speaker 2: identity and accepting Yes, you definitely lose the person you
Speaker 2: were before, of course you do, but the focus should
Speaker 2: be more so on the fact that you also gain
Speaker 2: a new identity, and I think we lament one without
Speaker 2: but the flip side of the coin, which is you
Speaker 2: gain this whole other person that's you can't even explain
Speaker 2: it to your pre motherhood's self. I kind of describe
Speaker 2: it as such a different identity that it's almost like
Speaker 2: a whole different planet. Like everyone who's had kids crosses
Speaker 2: over to planet parent and lives there and understands. They
Speaker 2: just get it, what it feels like, what it looks like.
Speaker 2: And I actually felt the need to issue a formal
Speaker 2: apology to all of those friends because when I wasn't
Speaker 2: living on that planet, i'd interacted with them just without
Speaker 2: having any idea what it took them to leave the
Speaker 2: house or how I could be useful or understand their
Speaker 2: time constraints, And the word busy means something different, like
Speaker 2: I just really felt so bad once I finally crossed over.
Speaker 2: And I think of myself as quite an empathetic, intellectual person,
Speaker 2: but even what I imagined it would be like, it's
Speaker 2: still nowhere close to it actually feels like. Another thing
Speaker 2: that also came out across every no matter what the
Speaker 2: juggle looked like for every single woman, including yourself in
Speaker 2: the book, is that no one had traditional maternity leave.
Speaker 2: Everyone went back conventionally extremely early, and almost everyone, particularly
Speaker 2: if they've had second children, regret that a little bit
Speaker 2: and have a little bit of guilt. Maybe wouldn't change it,
Speaker 2: but just wish that they had not felt so much pressure.
Speaker 2: So I want to talk to you about the fact
Speaker 2: that you didn't necessarily love the newborn phase, the guilt
Speaker 2: to even say that, the feelings of failure that that
Speaker 2: brought up. You write a lot about that in part
Speaker 2: two of the book. Yeah, because I think that's a
Speaker 2: really big thing that motherhood mothers in any not just
Speaker 2: in business mothers, no matter what their juggle looks like
Speaker 2: they feel this like incredible guilty if their journey doesn't
Speaker 2: look how they think it should totally, and.
Speaker 1: I think that was a big part of that newborn
Speaker 1: stage being quite heavy for me. And I wasn't diagnosed
Speaker 1: with personal depression, but it was definitely like on that
Speaker 1: journey to get there, it was like some quite dark
Speaker 1: times for me personally, and I think a large part
Speaker 1: of that was the fact that I couldn't breastfeed, and
Speaker 1: that seems so silly just to think of that like
Speaker 1: tiny factor that tipped me over the edge. But I also,
Speaker 1: you know, like I'm such a prepared individual. I've gone
Speaker 1: out and pre bought all the nursing bras, the breast pump,
Speaker 1: the silverrette nipple covers, like I had all the creams.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, my nipples are going to crack,
Speaker 1: so I have to buy this amazing ointment and like
Speaker 1: I had it all ready to go because I just
Speaker 1: thought this will be a given right. And then my
Speaker 1: labor was a little bit prickly. I lost over a
Speaker 1: leader of blood. I also have PCOS, so my hormones
Speaker 1: are already a bit funky and a factor of those
Speaker 1: I mean, we'll never know the reason why, but that's
Speaker 1: what the doctors say potentially could be part of it.
Speaker 1: I just had no supply. He also didn't latch. He
Speaker 1: had no interest in me, probably because I had no
Speaker 1: milk for him. Yeah, I'm like fair enough, little kid,
Speaker 1: Sorry about that. But I was in the hospital and
Speaker 1: the lactation consultants they're just they were awful to me,
Speaker 1: if I'm really honest about it, Like they were shocking.
Speaker 1: They were like, you want to give your baby the
Speaker 1: best start in life, so don't you want to try
Speaker 1: as hard as you can. And I'm there, like I've
Speaker 1: got strangers milking my breast and I was put on
Speaker 1: medication the time I helped my supply and I was
Speaker 1: pumping six times a day for like thirty minutes each
Speaker 1: and then the luctation consultant told me because I wasn't
Speaker 1: doing it eight times a day, I was trying to
Speaker 1: cut corners, I know. And that's the thing. It's like,
Speaker 1: there was just so awful, awful advice to just like
Speaker 1: push through. And it was literally like trying to get
Speaker 1: blood from a stone, and I just would get like
Speaker 1: ten meals each time. And it's so funny because even
Speaker 1: now I see, like, I remember you posted on the
Speaker 1: weekend that you were pumping at the fit Her at
Speaker 1: your like speaking gig, and I saw like the amount
Speaker 1: that you had expressed then, and even that still I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I just I've never seen that much
Speaker 1: milk in my life. And even though again not personal,
Speaker 1: nothing to do with me, but I still look at
Speaker 1: that and I'm like, oh, I just just wasn't my journey.
Speaker 1: So that was really hard in those early weeks. I
Speaker 1: tried for six weeks to pump, but I could give
Speaker 1: him like one bottle a day would be my breast milk,
Speaker 1: put those tiny ten meals each couple of hours over
Speaker 1: like six punths a day and giving one bottles worth
Speaker 1: just sixty meals at that time, and then the rest
Speaker 1: was formula. It was so disheartening because again, go to
Speaker 1: mother's group and everyone's feeding their babies and I've got to, like,
Speaker 1: you know, shamefully go to my bag and get my
Speaker 1: formula tin out and like I'll just feed my baby.
Speaker 1: Just give me a second, and I'm like mixing it together.
Speaker 1: And so that was really really tough because again the
Speaker 1: expectation of motherhood is like it's a natural thing, and
Speaker 1: I felt like I wasn't good at labor. I felt
Speaker 1: like I wasn't good at breastfeeding. It's hard because I
Speaker 1: also had these lactation consultants say to me, well, if
Speaker 1: you're going to feed in with a bottle, make sure
Speaker 1: that you do all the feed so you still have
Speaker 1: a connection with him because you're not breastfeeding. And so
Speaker 1: I had it in my head that like, Okay, well
Speaker 1: I have to have a connection. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: have a connection because I'm not feeding him naturally in
Speaker 1: inverted commas. So I think that was a really big
Speaker 1: contributing factor of me finding those early weeks really hard.
Speaker 1: I also because I lost so much blood. I was
Speaker 1: just so drained. It had no energy. I was depleted
Speaker 1: straight away. And then because through labor there was a
Speaker 1: lot of pushing and he was stuck, I had a
Speaker 1: lot of pelvic floor pain, and so even like changing
Speaker 1: his nappy, I found it too painful to stand up
Speaker 1: for that period of time. So it was a lot
Speaker 1: of factors. It made that not a like joyous time
Speaker 1: for me. I couldn't really go for a walk that far.
Speaker 1: And then he also hated the prem He hated the
Speaker 1: car seat, and so it was just stressful, like I
Speaker 1: was stuck at home with this baby that I didn't
Speaker 1: really understand, and I felt a bit like I couldn't
Speaker 1: be everything this baby wanted me to be, Like I
Speaker 1: didn't feel like a natural mother in that sense. It's
Speaker 1: funny when he hit like I think it was four
Speaker 1: or five months, and they start giving you a lot
Speaker 1: more of facial expressions and reactions. And even when he
Speaker 1: started crawling and he would like crawl up to me,
Speaker 1: I felt like, well, for the first time, this baby's
Speaker 1: actually choosing me, because in every other point in time,
Speaker 1: I wasn't the one keeping him alive. I wasn't the
Speaker 1: one that he needed. And of course there are many
Speaker 1: benefits and I'm like the queen of pro formula like
Speaker 1: formulas the bloody best. And it meant that my husband
Speaker 1: could feed and my parents would look after him, and
Speaker 1: it meant I could go into the office other people
Speaker 1: could keep him alive. But yeah, those moments where he
Speaker 1: could look at me and smile or crawl up to
Speaker 1: me and choose his mum to be the one that
Speaker 1: gets in those are really the breakthrough moments for me
Speaker 1: of like, okay, yeah, yeah, this is cool. Like I'm
Speaker 1: into this now because I feel like it's a give
Speaker 1: take relationship and not just you know, this little gorgeous
Speaker 1: blog where I couldn't really like crack the code.
Speaker 3: For yeah, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: And it just like, I don't think anyone's ever felt inadequacy,
Speaker 2: Like we've all had imposter syndrome, we've all had self doubt.
Speaker 2: You've never felt inadequacy until you can't do something for
Speaker 2: your child because there is this expectation that you have
Speaker 2: this innate knowledge, and you know sometimes they're like, but
Speaker 2: you know, above all, it's just mother's instinct, like listen
Speaker 2: to your gut, and I'm like, my gut is telling
Speaker 2: me I just had a bloody sea section. I need
Speaker 2: a shit.
Speaker 3: I can't.
Speaker 2: It's not telling me anything sensible, Like I have no
Speaker 2: mother's instinct right now. It's not always there, and then
Speaker 2: you feel guilty and like I, on the flip side,
Speaker 2: didn't have any problem breastfeeding, which surprised me enormously because
Speaker 2: I don't have boobs. I just I had this expectation
Speaker 2: that it wouldn't happen, and the fact that it did.
Speaker 2: I have become incredibly sensitive to posting the milky pump.
Speaker 2: In fact, as soon as I posted that photo, I
Speaker 2: don't know if you saw, the immediate next slide was guys.
Speaker 2: So many people have messaged me saying about the numbers
Speaker 2: of meals. I usually blur them out because I don't
Speaker 2: want to create any feelings you know, of inadequacy, which
Speaker 2: I don't mean to. I'm just literally post, you know,
Speaker 2: sharing my life. But as an advocate for formula feeding,
Speaker 2: I was adopted, so I was an exclusively formula fed baby.
Speaker 2: I don't even know what quality a formula there was
Speaker 2: in Korea in the eighties, yeah, but probably not amazing.
Speaker 2: And I think I turned out fine. So I was
Speaker 2: always ready to formula feed. And it's interesting that as
Speaker 2: soon as they knew my supply did come in the
Speaker 2: language of oh, well, you know, this is amazing because
Speaker 2: now you won't have to use formula kind of things,
Speaker 2: like we didn't want to mention the F word, but
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm I'm sorry, like I did actually
Speaker 2: because I had a C section. It did take a
Speaker 2: few days and we gave Teddy formula for the first
Speaker 2: three until my milk did come in, and I was
Speaker 2: fine with that, but it was almost like they weren't
Speaker 2: fine with it, Like they were like, don't worry, it
Speaker 2: won't be for long, and I'm like, I actually don't
Speaker 2: care if it's for long. Like my mum was in
Speaker 2: the room and she adopted both children who were also
Speaker 2: in the room, who and Nick's mum was adopted and
Speaker 2: he was in the room, and we were like, well,
Speaker 2: we were all formula fed, So like, yes, this is
Speaker 2: almost offensive the way that you're talking about this.
Speaker 1: And it is offensive because I'm sure you had the
Speaker 1: same thing where they make you sign a form in
Speaker 1: the hospital that's like I consent to giving my baby
Speaker 1: formula and I acknowledge just not as good as breast milk,
Speaker 1: and I'm signing this form and I'm like, guys, is
Speaker 1: actually quite deplorable because the options are he starves. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and even he had to have emergency surgery at six
Speaker 1: weeks old because he had pylorixgnosis. And we were too
Speaker 1: a public hospital because it's where emergency is all connected
Speaker 1: to it, and they were amazing, but they would not
Speaker 1: give me like a meal from the hospital because I
Speaker 1: wasn't breastfeeding, and that was company policy, was only breastfeeding
Speaker 1: mothers get the meals in hospital, even though I couldn't
Speaker 1: leave my baby. I'm there to support his surgery. I
Speaker 1: was there for five days, and it was funny. The
Speaker 1: nurses would give me like a nod in a wink,
Speaker 1: being like, so you're breastfeeding. Yeah, but they would like
Speaker 1: sneak me spaghetti bolonnais because they're like, well, this is bullshit.
Speaker 1: I can't believe that we can't feed you as a
Speaker 1: mother of a six week old baby, and you can't
Speaker 1: leave this hospital, and so yeah, those the kind of
Speaker 1: reminders happen all the time, and it's just insane, you know.
Speaker 1: I find it hard. Even with a lot of the
Speaker 1: baby food books that you read when you start solids,
Speaker 1: they have all these pages and pages devoted to how
Speaker 1: amazing breast milk is and you know, mix that with
Speaker 1: your wheat bigs and it's the best start for your
Speaker 1: baby's life. And I feel like no one was really
Speaker 1: talking about, well, what if you physically can't do it?
Speaker 1: And that's why I really wanted to put it in
Speaker 1: the book and talk about it, because I didn't know
Speaker 1: anyone that had a journey like mine, and I felt
Speaker 1: so alone in those moments and like such a failure,
Speaker 1: and it does not matter. He's so healthy, like he's thriving,
Speaker 1: he's ninety eighth percentile weight and hide and walking very early.
Speaker 1: Might I add very.
Speaker 4: Advanced obviously so advanced.
Speaker 1: But that's the thing. It's like, it doesn't matter. And
Speaker 1: so it's like, the more conversations we can have around it,
Speaker 1: I think is super powerful.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I have had a lot of questions and
Speaker 2: I will do in this segment an episode on for
Speaker 2: those who can breastfeed. There are a lot of questions
Speaker 2: around pumping schedules and stuff, and I do want to
Speaker 2: answer them, but I will be at pains to say,
Speaker 2: like it is, I'm trying to do the most neutral
Speaker 2: delivery ever because it just happens.
Speaker 4: That I could breastfeed. So I am.
Speaker 2: But I think the fact that it's framed like a choice, yes,
Speaker 2: for a lot of people, it's like and I think
Speaker 2: it's amazing. There are lots of people I know who
Speaker 2: choose they can breastfeed, but they choose to either start
Speaker 2: with formula or migrate when they need to go back
Speaker 2: to work or whatever it is. But it is not
Speaker 2: a choice for a lot of people. So to frame
Speaker 2: it that way, like breast is, Like, I'm sure, yes,
Speaker 2: breast is best in terms of like if you're choosing
Speaker 2: in a totally neutral landscape, but how shit is it
Speaker 2: going to make the people feel who can't choose that?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Literally, And you're so right because I had a
Speaker 1: girlfriend of mine who could breastfeed but hated it, and
Speaker 1: she felt so much guilt using formula because she's like,
Speaker 1: oh I can, so I should be breastfeeding him. But
Speaker 1: it's also like what about your mental health and if
Speaker 1: you're going back to work and all these different things,
Speaker 1: And feeding comes up in the book a lot because
Speaker 1: a lot of women did transition to formula earlier because
Speaker 1: it wasn't sustainable pumping at work or pumping during meetings,
Speaker 1: all that pressure to keep the supply going when they're
Speaker 1: trying to work a nine to five job, and there's
Speaker 1: so many complexities to it. So yeah, and I think
Speaker 1: at the same time, like, even though I'm very sensitive
Speaker 1: about it, I always try to understand that, like, no
Speaker 1: one is posting stuff out there to make me feel
Speaker 1: bad if it are sharing their own personal experience as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so we all should give each other a literally grace.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like I personally really love breastfeeding. It's been
Speaker 2: a really beautiful part of motherhood for me. I think
Speaker 2: because I didn't expect it. I think because Mum obviously
Speaker 2: it wasn't even on the cards. We've kind of been
Speaker 2: on this journey of learning about it together and that
Speaker 2: like it's so it's just so different for everyone. But
Speaker 2: I also feel like, because it is so much complexity
Speaker 2: around the issue that I almost don't want to say
Speaker 2: that either because I don't want to make anyone feel bad.
Speaker 2: But it has become a lot more difficult now that
Speaker 2: I am doing longer, like I am able to leave
Speaker 2: him for a little bit longer, as you mentioned, like
Speaker 2: I was doing my first sort of eight hour days.
Speaker 2: The longest I'd been away from Teddy before was three hours,
Speaker 2: so we only had to do one bottle, so I
Speaker 2: only had to pump once a day. But the milk
Speaker 2: that I had in the fridge was so much because
Speaker 2: I had had to plan like fourteen days out to
Speaker 2: start to up my supply, knowing that i'd have two
Speaker 2: days in a row, and that milk goes off if
Speaker 2: you can't use it after said in two hours, Like
Speaker 2: there's the logistics, and this comes back to the juggle.
Speaker 2: The logistics, no matter what, of being away from your child,
Speaker 2: especially when you go back early because women in business
Speaker 2: don't really take maternity leave is an enormous physical load
Speaker 2: and an enormous mental load. So I want to move
Speaker 2: on now to like the mechanics of the juggle and
Speaker 2: the fact that most of the women in the book, yourself,
Speaker 2: myself took sort of, you know, a couple of weeks
Speaker 2: to a couple of days of maternity leave, yeah, and
Speaker 2: then had to work out the juggle of nanny's, daycare,
Speaker 2: pumping formula, relying on partners. There's single mothers in there
Speaker 2: as well who don't have partners to rely on. How
Speaker 2: you and pat split the load, how did you work
Speaker 2: out your mechanics? Like what does that look like right now?
Speaker 2: And then take us through how you kind of got there,
Speaker 2: like when you first when he first went to daycare,
Speaker 2: and how you decided that and getting a nanny and
Speaker 2: all that stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Total, And I found it so pervy after these
Speaker 1: questions to people, because I'm like so nosy and I'm like,
Speaker 1: how are you doing it? And I think it's really
Speaker 1: I don't know, I find it really empowering hearing someone
Speaker 1: who I think has an amazing aspirational lifestyle. Hearing them say,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I don't do it all or I
Speaker 1: have heaps of help, I'm like, okay, good, We're all
Speaker 1: just human beings writing our best. How amazing. So that
Speaker 1: was a really big part of the interview question. I
Speaker 1: wanted just them to be like, feel comfortable enough to say, yeah,
Speaker 1: I have a nanny or in some cases, I have
Speaker 1: three nannies and that's how I do it all. Because
Speaker 1: it's not sustainable trying to be everything all the time.
Speaker 1: You'll burn out and be depleted, and then you'll be
Speaker 1: a terrible mum and partner because you have nothing left
Speaker 1: to give. So I kind of went into it with
Speaker 1: those conversations that I already had had about help and
Speaker 1: how important it is and how varied it is. I
Speaker 1: think again, with the formula, it meant that Pat and
Speaker 1: I could parent fifty to fifty, which was super empowering
Speaker 1: for him, meaning that I could go to the office
Speaker 1: or go to a work event, or I had to
Speaker 1: go to Sydney quite a few times when he was
Speaker 1: like three or four months old. Knew he'd be okay.
Speaker 1: So that was really great to kind of have that
Speaker 1: parenting structure, and we split it up in a sense
Speaker 1: where like I would always do the overnight fees and
Speaker 1: pot would do first thing in the morning, and then
Speaker 1: we'd try and share it during the day as well,
Speaker 1: and knowing that we both worked in the business, we
Speaker 1: could kind of know what's coming up when there are
Speaker 1: busy things and issues to be sold, and so that
Speaker 1: like transparency of what we're working on really helped us
Speaker 1: divide and conquer as well. And so we did that
Speaker 1: in a shared load for the first couple of months
Speaker 1: while I still was like coming back part time ish
Speaker 1: or like just working when I could basically, and then
Speaker 1: I actually found it really helpful going back to the
Speaker 1: office for my mental health. And I loved having that
Speaker 1: structure returning to work and knowing I had these set days,
Speaker 1: not being Henry's mum or not being Genevieve day singing
Speaker 1: incy wincy Spider. They knew I could go back me
Speaker 1: day management. I loved being able to like dress up
Speaker 1: in a cute outfit and go to the office. And
Speaker 1: so that structure, which was probably January this year, so
Speaker 1: he would have been like three and a half months old,
Speaker 1: we had my parents do one day a week. Pat's
Speaker 1: mum did one day a week. Pat and I would
Speaker 1: kind of share the other three days fifty to fifty,
Speaker 1: and then when he was four months old, we ended
Speaker 1: up actually getting a nanny for the Wednesday, so Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,
Speaker 1: we had support for those big like eight hour days
Speaker 1: in the office or we were away from him for
Speaker 1: a long period of time, and then we kind of
Speaker 1: tried to share the Mondays and Fridays with him and
Speaker 1: both working, and that just became not sustainable because obviously
Speaker 1: I got busier, Pat got busier, Henry slept less, and
Speaker 1: he was getting older and needed more attention, and he
Speaker 1: is super active, so he was not going to like
Speaker 1: he also doesn't really sleep at all, so he'd have
Speaker 1: like a forty five minute now, and so if you
Speaker 1: don't take him out to the park, like he's going
Speaker 1: to combust or something. It got to a stage where
Speaker 1: I was like, this is not sustainable, and we were
Speaker 1: kind of bickering with each other of like, well, I
Speaker 1: need to jump on this phone call, and I've got
Speaker 1: this conference call or I've got this meeting, and so
Speaker 1: it just became we needed to put him into daycare.
Speaker 1: Basically around he would have just been like a eleven
Speaker 1: and a half months, almost one. So it's been in
Speaker 1: daycare for like three and a half weeks now and
Speaker 1: we've already got gastro and conjunctividis hot. Yeah, love it,
Speaker 1: And it's a big adjustment. Because we had the nanny,
Speaker 1: she would also help us by doing the washing and
Speaker 1: preparing some of the dinners and that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: But instead I'm back to meal prepping for him on
Speaker 1: a Sunday for like three hours. But that's kind of
Speaker 1: the way that we did all the help and the juggle,
Speaker 1: and we're so lucky to have family support and we
Speaker 1: definitely lean on them a lot, especially yeah, if I
Speaker 1: have to go into state for something, or we've gotten
Speaker 1: early morning work call with America's time zone or whatever
Speaker 1: it might be. So that's kind of how we've juggled it,
Speaker 1: and it definitely has not been perfect, and I think
Speaker 1: that we really stucked it up a little bit. We
Speaker 1: were trying to have work days but have a baby
Speaker 1: there at the same time, because just for us and
Speaker 1: the way that he slept and lived and played is
Speaker 1: like you can't do two things at once with him,
Speaker 1: and I see people online I have the baby in
Speaker 1: a really cool playpan, and they're emailing and I'm like,
Speaker 1: that is just not my real Like, he'll never sleep
Speaker 1: for more than an hour, so it's like I don't
Speaker 1: have big, solid work chunks to get done while he's here.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're the same.
Speaker 2: You can't do two things at once with Teddy at all,
Speaker 2: except that he sleeps for half an hour, not an
Speaker 2: hour during the day, which is Yeah, it's a juggle, but.
Speaker 1: Yes, that was kind of how we navigated it. We
Speaker 1: did parents at a nanny and then now daycare, and
Speaker 1: we feel so much lighter, not trying to cram everything
Speaker 1: into one day.
Speaker 2: I feel like watching your evolution of the juggle and
Speaker 2: then also reading the book and you're covering other people
Speaker 2: navigating the juggle who are like a little bit further
Speaker 2: ahead of you. It's gone from like this intense guilt
Speaker 2: about guilt on both sides. If I'm not in my business,
Speaker 2: like you said, I don't look like I'm working hard enough.
Speaker 2: But if I'm not at home enough, then is he
Speaker 2: going to be developing fast enough and meeting his milestones
Speaker 2: and whatever? And like is it too early to get
Speaker 2: a nanny or is it, and that's like it's every
Speaker 2: mum goes through that no matter when, and what juggle,
Speaker 2: like what mechanics your juggle looks like, but that it's
Speaker 2: been this evolution towards like realizing that the decisions you've
Speaker 2: made along the way make you all happier, and that
Speaker 2: like who cares what it looks like compared to anyone
Speaker 2: else's Once you make the decisions that work in your
Speaker 2: life for your family, like everything just works better. But
Speaker 2: it takes such a mental hurdle to get there. And
Speaker 2: it seems like everyone in the book had this kind
Speaker 2: of aha moment of like stop fighting what you need
Speaker 2: in your life to make it look like someone else's.
Speaker 1: And that's such a good point. And even like we
Speaker 1: had to kind of sit down together and look at
Speaker 1: a budget to say, okay, well, if I go back
Speaker 1: to work an additional day, we can then afford to
Speaker 1: get a cleaner once a fortnight so I'm not having
Speaker 1: to look after him and work and scrubb a shower
Speaker 1: and that kind of thing. Or in the beginning, when
Speaker 1: he first out of solids, we use that La Puree
Speaker 1: brand because I was like, I do don't have time
Speaker 1: to make him organic bone broth and then pure it,
Speaker 1: which takes a hour. I'm not doing that, but I
Speaker 1: still want to be a good mum and still want
Speaker 1: to give that to him, So I'm just going to
Speaker 1: outsource that and buy it. And like it is expensive,
Speaker 1: and you know, those are elements that do cost money,
Speaker 1: but we had to crunch it down to be like, well,
Speaker 1: let's just cut back on other areas to afford that
Speaker 1: because it gives us the time back in our lives
Speaker 1: where we can then spend our time with our son.
Speaker 1: And I won't say that I didn't feel judged that
Speaker 1: whole time for having a nanny, and like four months
Speaker 1: is quite young to be getting external help. And you know,
Speaker 1: he went into daycare at one also because I think
Speaker 1: he needed more social interaction and he was getting a
Speaker 1: little bit brady and like not sharing well. And I'm
Speaker 1: like times I've seen some other kids, but it's so hard,
Speaker 1: but you're right, everyone's on their own journey and if
Speaker 1: you just accept what works for you and your family.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And You've been such an amazing not just role
Speaker 2: model but also mentor for me in this area because
Speaker 2: so many times I've called you to say, like, at
Speaker 2: what age did do this, and who did you go
Speaker 2: to and blah blah blah, but you've sort of been like, well,
Speaker 2: this is what I did, but also very much like
Speaker 2: it depends on what you need right now, like it
Speaker 2: doesn't have to look the same, and there's no sort
Speaker 2: of too early or too late. And I think for
Speaker 2: any mum's listening, our conversation is obviously very weighted towards
Speaker 2: women who have gone back to work very early, not
Speaker 2: taking traditional maternity leave. Our guilty is all around how
Speaker 2: early we do things or how much we sort of
Speaker 2: end up needing help earlier. But I think at the
Speaker 2: other end of the spectrum, there are also women who
Speaker 2: take twelve months maternity leave and they feel like everyone's saying, oh,
Speaker 2: look how much time you have, Oh, you'll get so
Speaker 2: much done. That people think they're lazy because they're at
Speaker 2: home for twelve months with it. It's like you are
Speaker 2: raising a child, Like I'm sure their loss of identity
Speaker 2: is the other way around, like losing their working identity
Speaker 2: completely and feeling guilt around that. What I find really
Speaker 2: interesting now is that your struggle and having like kind
Speaker 2: of gone through that with you was at the beginning
Speaker 2: feeling guilt about not loving the newborn phase.
Speaker 4: When everyone talks.
Speaker 2: About the newborn bubble and how beautiful that is. I
Speaker 2: have found it the opposite in that. And you know
Speaker 2: this intimately because we're going through it right now. And
Speaker 2: to answer everyone who's been submitting questions about sort of
Speaker 2: the juggle for me, I found the juggle relatively easy.
Speaker 2: I mean still hard in the text of parenthood is
Speaker 2: hard and your life changes dramatically. But I found maybe
Speaker 2: because I had really low expectations. Nick and I also
Speaker 2: work really flexibly. Teddy was a really good sleeper at
Speaker 2: the start. We have so much family support in the
Speaker 2: immediate five k's of our house, so we haven't had
Speaker 2: an annial daycare yet, and it didn't really feel like
Speaker 2: a juggle, you know. I went back to work like
Speaker 2: that first photo shoot was at five weeks, but I had,
Speaker 2: like Nick, my mum and my auntie's there you there
Speaker 2: who's also a mum and who was going through it
Speaker 2: at the same time. It was hard, but it wasn't overwhelming.
Speaker 2: And then I went back to work at six weeks.
Speaker 2: Our work is so flexible. Everyone like the TV show
Speaker 2: came to film my house. I could, you know, do
Speaker 2: a couple of hours of contact work sort of a week,
Speaker 2: but then do the rest from home. I actually felt
Speaker 2: really like, I'm okay at this for the whole first bit,
Speaker 2: and I was in that newborn bubble where I didn't
Speaker 2: have sort of guilt or regret or anything, which surprised me.
Speaker 2: But what a lot of people who have that experience
Speaker 2: have is that then they get to sort of four
Speaker 2: to six.
Speaker 4: Months and then it's hard.
Speaker 2: And it's funny that the first time I've ever wished,
Speaker 2: Like my dialogue to people, and probably even in the podcast,
Speaker 2: so I hope I am correcting that for people who
Speaker 2: have been listening. My dialogue at the start was I
Speaker 2: really thought that, you know, this would be the first
Speaker 2: time I miss corporate, and that I you know, I've
Speaker 2: never regretted leaving law, but that this might be the
Speaker 2: first time that I do because paid maternity leave, but
Speaker 2: I didn't, I don't regret that, blah blah blah. A
Speaker 2: couple of months on, I'm like, I almost wish that
Speaker 2: I could take maternity leave now. It's like you could
Speaker 2: take you could not take it for six months and
Speaker 2: then take it now, because now has been when I
Speaker 2: found it the hardest and then I feel guilty of
Speaker 2: in saying that because I'm like, he's such a good baby.
Speaker 2: I love my child. I don't hate motherhood. I love
Speaker 2: being among more than anything. But like you said, I
Speaker 2: have not been diagnosed with postpartum anxiety or depression, but
Speaker 2: I would definitely say maybe two three weeks ago. I
Speaker 2: mean I was pretty much telling you. I was like, Jen,
Speaker 2: I can't, I can't life, and it was another topic
Speaker 2: that's so heated and heavy and loaded.
Speaker 4: It was all sleep for me. Again.
Speaker 2: You were such a good comfort for because Henry also
Speaker 2: wasn't sleeping that Teddy. We took him overseas at that time.
Speaker 2: He was an eight hour stretch minimum, easy sleeper until
Speaker 2: we went to Italy. Italy was incredible. We'll do an
Speaker 2: episode on traveling with a baby. It is coming, I promised.
Speaker 2: Then we came back, he had jet lag and that
Speaker 2: led into this four month regression that lasted. I don't
Speaker 2: want to scare anyone off, but some of them last
Speaker 2: couple of weeks and they resolve. Teddy's kind of went
Speaker 2: for eight weeks plus, and that was like I was
Speaker 2: waking up every one and a half hours all day
Speaker 2: every day for like sixty something days, and then my
Speaker 2: sort of manifestation of what we spoke about earlier of
Speaker 2: like I'm still present and available and don't think that
Speaker 2: you can't book me was just keep going, like just
Speaker 2: suck it up and don't knowledge that anything's like hard,
Speaker 2: and just keep selling the story that let you're fine,
Speaker 2: until then suddenly I was like I reached this critical
Speaker 2: point in around seven weeks and I was like.
Speaker 3: I'm not fine.
Speaker 4: This is not sustainable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is people kept telling me in war, they
Speaker 2: use this as torture, like sleep deprivation is a form
Speaker 2: of torture.
Speaker 4: And it just crumbled.
Speaker 2: And I was like, you and I are terrible at
Speaker 2: saying that we're having a hard time at something. But
Speaker 2: I was like I actually need to vocalize this and
Speaker 2: like go and stay at a postpartum hotel. Yeah, because
Speaker 2: like I can't do this anymore. I need a circuit breaker.
Speaker 1: No one ever tells you that you're normal to feel
Speaker 1: that way that you're like, this is a form of
Speaker 1: torture and it is so hard. But again you're like,
Speaker 1: why is it just my baby? Everyone else's baby sleeping,
Speaker 1: but my baby won't say through the night. And Henry
Speaker 1: didn't say through the night till he was eleven months old,
Speaker 1: so I had over a year of no speak because
Speaker 1: when you're that pregnant, you don't sleep either. And people
Speaker 1: would be like, oh, no, I'm in a regression. I
Speaker 1: was like, my whole life is a regression.
Speaker 2: We live aggression. And then yeah, it's like the same
Speaker 2: as for you with breastfeeding. I would feel that mothers
Speaker 2: who were posting someone put something up about how they
Speaker 2: thought it didn't exist, like and that, you know, there's
Speaker 2: a lot of literature out there that it doesn't exist,
Speaker 2: which each to their own, like, I'm sure there are
Speaker 2: lots of babies who have shown zero manifestations of any interruption,
Speaker 2: but in my world, it very much exists. It was
Speaker 2: very much like bang on timing. He was two weeks early,
Speaker 2: so it was four and a half months on the dot. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'll do a whole separate sleep episode on sort of
Speaker 2: how we've navigated out of that. But that's when the
Speaker 2: juggle became a juggle for me, Like suddenly I was
Speaker 2: I think one of the things I loved so much
Speaker 2: about your book is that everyone said the narrative that
Speaker 2: you can.
Speaker 4: Do it all is bullshit.
Speaker 2: Except you can do everything you want to do, just
Speaker 2: not all at the same time. You just have to
Speaker 2: juggle it in the way that works for you. You
Speaker 2: just can't do it all at once. And I kept
Speaker 2: trying to do socializing, seeing my friend and not really exercising,
Speaker 2: but at least like a little bit of outdoors walking, sleeping,
Speaker 2: being a mom and being a present mum, waking up
Speaker 2: to him all the time, feeding it back to sleep
Speaker 2: six times a night, and then going to work a
Speaker 2: full day, all day every day, and something had to give.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it's insane when you list it
Speaker 1: like that. No person can pull that off. And I
Speaker 1: also felt that like I kind of enjoyed going to work,
Speaker 1: going to the office in those days, and I'd been
Speaker 1: up four or five times in the nine but I
Speaker 1: could like cosplay someone who was normal and had heaps
Speaker 1: of sleep, and the lovely girls in the office who
Speaker 1: were like twenty five, like, oh my god, I'm exhausted.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, are you tired because he's late
Speaker 1: watching Netflix. Wow. Sleep for us was a huge thing,
Speaker 1: But I feel like, again, I just always spoke about it.
Speaker 1: I was like, he's a terrible sleeper. He always hated
Speaker 1: day n apps. He would never sleep in the prem
Speaker 1: never sleep in the cast. We couldn't go anywhere. And
Speaker 1: then we did sleep training at four months, and even
Speaker 1: the sleep training consultant told me, oh wow, I love
Speaker 1: a challenge, and he's a challenge. Three to five days
Speaker 1: was the sleep training like life cycle, and I called
Speaker 1: her in day five and I was like, come, well,
Speaker 1: it's still not working, and she goes, Okay, I think
Speaker 1: it's actually going to be twenty one days. And again
Speaker 1: everyone has their methods. Is just what we decided to
Speaker 1: use and what worked for us. But responsive settling. So
Speaker 1: we left him in the room to cry for a
Speaker 1: bit and we'd time it and then go back in
Speaker 1: after a certain amount of time. But he's the most
Speaker 1: stubborn determined kid, which I love that about him, Like
Speaker 1: he's so independent, he is so strong willed. He would
Speaker 1: just stand up at the cot and scream and like
Speaker 1: shake the cot in like stare at the baking auditor,
Speaker 1: like straight into the camera, and we were like, no,
Speaker 1: we have to like keep going, and then we'd get
Speaker 1: in the good rhythm and then he would go backwards
Speaker 1: and we'd sleep around him again, and so yeah, it
Speaker 1: took eleven months and a sleep through the night, which
Speaker 1: at the moment he's been a dream and it's been
Speaker 1: like twelve hours of sleep seven till seven beautiful day
Speaker 1: n apps, forty minute daynaps. But he goes straight to
Speaker 1: sleep now. But there were periods of time there where
Speaker 1: I'd be like settling him for an hour with like
Speaker 1: an audiobook in my AirPods, just like patting his bum,
Speaker 1: leave the room, go back in, leave, go back in,
Speaker 1: and then having to try and fit in work around
Speaker 1: that is truly insane. And yeah, those I think the
Speaker 1: sleep deprivation also meant that I wasn't coping at the time,
Speaker 1: especially in those early days. I feel like so many
Speaker 1: people do these types of projects when they're out of
Speaker 1: the woods, right and they say, oh, they get so
Speaker 1: much better, And even me now with him being one,
Speaker 1: I'm like, it's okay, Like he sleeps perfectly, it's fine,
Speaker 1: and you almost forget that pain. But what I loved
Speaker 1: about writing the book and doing it in like real
Speaker 1: time for me was that I would write down my
Speaker 1: thoughts at four weeks postparton, and then add a bit
Speaker 1: more at six weeks, and then edit the book at
Speaker 1: five months and do my final read over at six
Speaker 1: months old and beyond, and I look back and I think,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this girl sounds like unwell in the head.
Speaker 1: But also there isn't there aren't enough resources. I believe
Speaker 1: in people like in the thick of it saying like,
Speaker 1: this is so hard and I feel this way totally.
Speaker 2: And I loved that so much about it because I
Speaker 2: could see the evolution of you keeping parts in that
Speaker 2: were no longer how you felt, but reflecting that they
Speaker 2: were once how you felt. And same with the way
Speaker 2: that all the interviews were written, was that it was
Speaker 2: also like, particularly people who have multiple children, sort of
Speaker 2: the approach they had at the first child versus what
Speaker 2: they do now and the things they not regret but
Speaker 2: like would tell themselves earlier, which is the reader. That's
Speaker 2: the person that's earlier them if they could go back
Speaker 2: and have the chance. And I also want to dedicate
Speaker 2: an entire episode to sort of again, I kind of
Speaker 2: wish I'd recorded this when we were more in the
Speaker 2: thick of the sleep thing, because to give you hope,
Speaker 2: it has resolved a lot for us. So anyone listening,
Speaker 2: if you are in the thick of it, you know
Speaker 2: that we haven't been, and I promise you that it
Speaker 2: can get better, but I do sort of wish i'd
Speaker 2: similar to when we had our pregnancy loss, I sort
Speaker 2: of shared before we had our happy ending, and that
Speaker 2: was possibly more powerful. So yeah, but I documented a
Speaker 2: lot of it, and I will include that in the
Speaker 2: sleep episode which will come immediately after, because I think
Speaker 2: it's probably the most pressing. But one of the things
Speaker 2: you and I spoke about a lot during that time.
Speaker 2: I was literally guys calling Jen all the time, being like,
Speaker 2: tell me about day nannie, tell me about night nannies,
Speaker 2: tell me about sleep school, Like tell me about all
Speaker 2: the options on the spectrum?
Speaker 4: When do you do them? What are they called?
Speaker 2: Because you don't know that world and if you've never
Speaker 2: had to look it up before. And the funny thing
Speaker 2: that we always mentioned is that you had posted a
Speaker 2: photo of you lying on like not even a mattress,
Speaker 2: but like the play mat on the floor of Henry's
Speaker 2: bed all night, and no.
Speaker 4: One the next day.
Speaker 2: Not only do they not know, but their lives are
Speaker 2: so busy, not even out of sort of self centeredness,
Speaker 2: but no one cares that you didn't sleep the night
Speaker 2: before because they all have their own deliverables in their life,
Speaker 2: so you're just like walking around like a dead person.
Speaker 2: But the rest of the world doesn't care. So they
Speaker 2: need you to function the same as if you have slept.
Speaker 2: They need you to just keep going. And it's crazy
Speaker 2: that there's all these like deceased mothers walking around and
Speaker 2: fathers as well, but the rest of the world just
Speaker 2: keeps going, and you're like, how are you guys all
Speaker 2: just like up and about doing your thing. So it's
Speaker 2: I think the sleep part is a crazy interrelated part
Speaker 2: of the coping and juggling totally.
Speaker 1: And I think as well, it's like there is a
Speaker 1: portion to it where candidness and openness is so valuable
Speaker 1: to almost say, especially when you're leading a team where
Speaker 1: I am a business of being, like I can't operate
Speaker 1: at the functionality level that you deserve right now. And
Speaker 1: I think again, looking back, like I committed to some
Speaker 1: things work really really early on, Like I committed to
Speaker 1: a performance review fore of my team members and I
Speaker 1: was three weeks postpartum. We put that in before I
Speaker 1: had the baby, and I had no idea what that
Speaker 1: meant being three weeks postpartum. When I booked in I
Speaker 1: was like, of course, I'm amazing, I'll push through. Of
Speaker 1: course I'll be there. I'll pop into the office. He'll
Speaker 1: be three weeks old. And so I came in and
Speaker 1: I think I brought in with me and how was
Speaker 1: And I did the meeting and I think I was
Speaker 1: still wearing a nappy myself by that stage even and
Speaker 1: it was not a good performance review because I couldn't
Speaker 1: have prepared properly. I'd had like two hours chunks of
Speaker 1: sleep and row and you know, I wish I just
Speaker 1: looked back and said to the people around me, like,
Speaker 1: I can't give you the level that you deserve based
Speaker 1: on what I'm operating with right now. Let's reset for
Speaker 1: this date and then I can, you know, be the
Speaker 1: better leader for you, or be the better partner for you,
Speaker 1: or all those kind of things. And so there is power,
Speaker 1: I think, and admitting what you're coping with. But you're
Speaker 1: so right that on a day to day level, people
Speaker 1: don't care. And the people on the other end of
Speaker 1: your email, they don't care that I spent the night
Speaker 1: on the floor of his room, every three hours, you know,
Speaker 1: patting his bum to stop screaming, like wading all mums again,
Speaker 1: all parents understand that and have empathy and like a
Speaker 1: knowing glance across the room of like, I know what
Speaker 1: you've been through, but yeah, I think there's a mixture
Speaker 1: there of like pushing on because the world doesn't stop,
Speaker 1: but also acknowledging the people around you that like, this
Speaker 1: is what I can realistically give you right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you created such a supportive environment where I
Speaker 2: really did feel like instead of like I battled on
Speaker 2: with it kind of being like, oh, I'm tired, but hah,
Speaker 2: this regression, but ha, I'm actually fine to then having
Speaker 2: to say, like, I really think I need to not
Speaker 2: have any expectations on me for the next sort of
Speaker 2: ten days so I can catch up to like rationality,
Speaker 2: because whatever I submit right now is not going to
Speaker 2: be my best work. So it's actually in everyone's best
Speaker 2: interest that we all just kind of like get on
Speaker 2: the page. And that's so especially for an A type
Speaker 2: personality who's really like likes to be good at stuff,
Speaker 2: and we're like twins in that regard. It's the hardest
Speaker 2: thing to ever say, is I am not doing well, Like.
Speaker 4: It's the worst.
Speaker 2: It's like not even in my vernacular. But once you
Speaker 2: do it like you suddenly feel so much better, and
Speaker 2: that sort of not even humility, but just like ability
Speaker 2: to accept that there are times where you can't do
Speaker 2: it all is a reflection I notice in every single
Speaker 2: woman's story in the book. And my biggest takeaway for
Speaker 2: you because it was your own story interweaved with and
Speaker 2: I love that you sort of do all the interviews
Speaker 2: and then you wrap it up with what have we
Speaker 2: learnt from these and then break it into really clear
Speaker 2: themes what is your biggest learning, maybe your biggest surprise
Speaker 2: from interviewing all these incredible women, And then, if it's different,
Speaker 2: the main thing that you want people to take away
Speaker 2: from the book except that they obviously have to read
Speaker 2: it as well. But if you wanted one thing to
Speaker 2: come from this episode and the book, what would it be?
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I think I really loved that structure
Speaker 1: as well. I wanted to hold this space for each
Speaker 1: of the women to tell their stories and to your
Speaker 1: point before about the different stages of their life. We
Speaker 1: had someone like Jesse Stevens, who was a week away
Speaker 1: from giving birth to her first child when she spoke
Speaker 1: to me, versus like celebrity stylist Lina Wilkinson, who her
Speaker 1: daughters are like almost tween ages. So it's you know,
Speaker 1: a full spectrum there of experience, which I found really
Speaker 1: valuable as well. And I think what I took away
Speaker 1: the most was having boundaries, which I know is such
Speaker 1: like an over there pized word, and part of me
Speaker 1: hates and people are like, I need to have boundaries.
Speaker 1: But I was always so committed to those around me
Speaker 1: and my job and the people relying on me through
Speaker 1: my agency, and I think that applies to anyone with
Speaker 1: a career. You'd have you know, direct reports and a
Speaker 1: boss and everything. I would just be like they would
Speaker 1: say jump, I'd say how high because it was only
Speaker 1: me that that was affecting. It was just my time, right.
Speaker 1: But then with a baby around, every time that that
Speaker 1: boundary was pushed, I was missing out in moments with
Speaker 1: my son, and more and more of those stories that
Speaker 1: I was told said the same thing, where they were like,
Speaker 1: you have to put those boundaries in place because clients
Speaker 1: will push you and work will push you, and you
Speaker 1: realize it's actually not worth the sacrifice when it does
Speaker 1: come at the cost of your family. And you know,
Speaker 1: I was pushed in my boundaries hours after giving birth,
Speaker 1: I had to jump into a contract resolution from hospital
Speaker 1: and then you know, like I said, I lost it
Speaker 1: almost a leader and a half of blood, and I was,
Speaker 1: you know, emailing the next day about something because a
Speaker 1: brand was pulling a sick, bigger contract deal and unfortunately
Speaker 1: only I had the context helped resolve that. So those
Speaker 1: are boundaries that were pushed. And then again coming into
Speaker 1: the office for those meetings so early on post pardon,
Speaker 1: and then it just happens all the time right where
Speaker 1: they think, okay, well it's not your official in the
Speaker 1: office day, but can you join this meeting It's really important,
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, that's my day with my son,
Speaker 1: but okay, I'll be there. And that was something that
Speaker 1: came up again and again in the book with these
Speaker 1: women being like you just have to hold that time
Speaker 1: firmly for your family so you can be present. Then
Speaker 1: then you can be present at work as opposed to
Speaker 1: like a mismatch where you're not doing either party justice.
Speaker 1: And then just all the feelings and conversations around guilt,
Speaker 1: like I still feel so much mother's guilt, and every
Speaker 1: single person felt it, even the way step person we
Speaker 1: spoke about like missing Harvey's first day of daycare because
Speaker 1: she had a work meeting that morning she just couldn't
Speaker 1: get out of it, and that still sat with her
Speaker 1: that she was like, I still didn't know if I
Speaker 1: made the right choice because what I had to do
Speaker 1: in the moment, and I have so many of those moments.
Speaker 1: It's where I'm like, I feel guilty all the time,
Speaker 1: and the comparison really gets me in. I remember when
Speaker 1: we did first Sees the A recording together. My quote
Speaker 1: that I chose was comparison is a thief of joy
Speaker 1: because I still wrestle with that all the time, and
Speaker 1: I look at people who are with their children way
Speaker 1: more than I am, and you know, some part of
Speaker 1: me yearns for that. But and I do feel guilty
Speaker 1: all the time, Like I feel guilty when I choose
Speaker 1: not to be with him because it feels like a
Speaker 1: choice putting him into daycare or giving him to my
Speaker 1: parents who have him right now, And so that's always
Speaker 1: really hard. But again knowing I'm not alone in that,
Speaker 1: because all these women feel the same way, but they
Speaker 1: know at their core they're building something bigger for their family,
Speaker 1: or they're doing it for a future for their kids.
Speaker 1: Also that they can feel fulfilled and be a great
Speaker 1: mum and a great partner because they've filled their cup
Speaker 1: up through their own career ambitions. So I think definitely
Speaker 1: the guilt helped me so much heal, because that's something
Speaker 1: I still wrestle with all the time, and something I'll
Speaker 1: say that men don't get as well. Like my husband's
Speaker 1: had a number of like family weddings and Bucks parties,
Speaker 1: has traveled for a weekend away for and good on him.
Speaker 1: He deserves that time off too, But I'm always like, oh,
Speaker 1: do you feel guilty?
Speaker 4: And he never does.
Speaker 1: He's never like, oh, yeah, I missed Henry the whole time.
Speaker 1: He's like, no, I know, I've seen him in two
Speaker 1: days time, and I love him and I'm a good dad,
Speaker 1: so I'm cool with it. I know the difference with
Speaker 1: men and women is just like so obvious in these
Speaker 1: parenting moments too.
Speaker 2: It's so funny that you said that because the expert
Speaker 2: I was hosting on the weekend, I was meant to
Speaker 2: do the Brisbane version of that. And I don't know
Speaker 2: if you guys know some of you will know that
Speaker 2: I was meant to be there, and I'm so sorry
Speaker 2: if we were meant to catch up in Brizee, but
Speaker 2: I had to pull out because it was meant to
Speaker 2: be my first mum's weekend away. I'd booked a massage
Speaker 2: and everything, but he just literally stopped taking the bottle
Speaker 2: that week, and like my child has to eat, I
Speaker 2: have the boobs, Like, Unfortunately, I just couldn't make it work,
Speaker 2: and I had so much guilt around that, and then
Speaker 2: I still haven't, like it's not conceivable that I could
Speaker 2: sort of go away without him. But this end of
Speaker 2: this week, Nick's going to Thailand for a week on
Speaker 2: a work trip. But still it's like I can't even
Speaker 2: imagine seven days. But it's funny you also said about
Speaker 2: the guilt thing and how much the book helped me.
Speaker 2: It's interesting that I have had. I've had so much support.
Speaker 2: Nick works from home, so it's a lot easier than
Speaker 2: either of us being in an office all the time.
Speaker 2: But my mechanics of the juggle has been I didn't
Speaker 2: need any help until the sleep thing, and then we
Speaker 2: got a night nanny, which I'll talk all about in
Speaker 2: the sleep episode, which has been game changing. But Teddy's
Speaker 2: like Harry, he only sleeps for twenty seven to thirty
Speaker 2: one minutes max. Like clockwork during the day, so I
Speaker 2: can't do anything really during the day, but I have
Speaker 2: film so it has to be during light hours, so
Speaker 2: I kind of need a day nanny. But the first
Speaker 2: thing I asked you, I've asked quite a few people
Speaker 2: who I know have nanny's. I ask them how they
Speaker 2: got their nanny. But I also asked when, as if
Speaker 2: that matters, as if that's got anything to do with anything.
Speaker 4: I clearly need one.
Speaker 2: Why does it matter that I need to compare how
Speaker 2: many months old Teddy is to how many months old
Speaker 2: someone else was when their children, in a totally different
Speaker 2: situation had a nanny.
Speaker 4: But it's the guilt. I'm like, is it too early,
Speaker 4: is it too late? Who cares? The reality is I
Speaker 4: need one. I need to get one. So it's just funny,
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 1: And we're all the same. And that was such a
Speaker 1: beautiful uncovering in the project as well, was like we
Speaker 1: all have the same feelings, and you think it's just you,
Speaker 1: and you think I'm a ship mum, or like my
Speaker 1: baby does this and I'm terrible or whatever, then like,
Speaker 1: hang on, we all feel this way. We're not special,
Speaker 1: We're not unique in it like everybody has trouble with sleep,
Speaker 1: Everyone has trouble with help and joggling it all. And like,
Speaker 1: I think, just that was awesome for me to see
Speaker 1: that from people I really looked up to as well.
Speaker 1: And even I remember Jess hatsis from Frank Body said
Speaker 1: in the book, like going back earlier and not really
Speaker 1: having any time off initially with her baby. She wouldn't
Speaker 1: wish that upon anyone, Like that's a hell that she
Speaker 1: wouldn't wish upon anybody. And I was like, yeah, that
Speaker 1: was really hard, Like I thought that too, and yeah,
Speaker 1: I just think that's so powerful to be like we
Speaker 1: all feel guilty, but we all also have these career
Speaker 1: ambitions and aspirations that we don't have to miss out
Speaker 1: on because we chose to start a family. And you
Speaker 1: just make it work in whatever way you can. And
Speaker 1: again like whatever makes you sleep at night, right, And
Speaker 1: there are some people who have no qualms about their
Speaker 1: level of support, some people who don't want to have
Speaker 1: external support at all. And again, like the women that
Speaker 1: stay home with their babies all the time, I'm like,
Speaker 1: hats off to you, because that is such a hard
Speaker 1: and demanding job. And I have so much respect for
Speaker 1: women who can do that as well, and who choose
Speaker 1: to do that unpaid work, and you deserve to have
Speaker 1: supernuation and all that stuff, and I think that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's massive the spectrum there, and we all feel a
Speaker 1: level of guilt and pain and regret and we're all
Speaker 1: just doing our best.
Speaker 2: I actually love that you've mentioned Steph, Phoebe from the memo,
Speaker 2: Jess and Lana. I've cried to all of them in
Speaker 2: the last couple of months at some point, and you
Speaker 2: so this book was like truly cathartic for me. But
Speaker 2: it's funny that the very life line is but would
Speaker 2: you change it? Not one bit? And I love that
Speaker 2: so much because the juggle is hard, it's messy, you
Speaker 2: cry a lot, you feel guilty, you have regrets, but
Speaker 2: like you really wouldn't You wouldn't change it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. And again would I change some aspects?
Speaker 1: I think I'd like a better birth next time, and
Speaker 1: maybe I don't.
Speaker 2: Know, like a day of maternity leave, like one day totally, and.
Speaker 1: Those kind of things. Again, when people spoke about going
Speaker 1: around too, they could impart wisdom onto themselves and make
Speaker 1: those choices to be Jembler and give themselves more space
Speaker 1: and boundaries. So yes, definitely we wouldn't change it when
Speaker 1: you are challenged and you know, put up to the
Speaker 1: task of raising this little tiny human, especially you know
Speaker 1: at the stage where Henry, he's walking and he can
Speaker 1: kind of talk but not really, so everything is cart's
Speaker 1: all he can really say. It's just it's the cutest
Speaker 1: misial boarding thing in the world. And I feel like
Speaker 1: I was lucky in the sense I had a lot
Speaker 1: of validation from my work, and I was given a
Speaker 1: lot of external validation as well, and I've won awards
Speaker 1: and I've been on four thirty under thirty and all
Speaker 1: those things that I thought madded to me. And now
Speaker 1: contrasting to him walking into the room and saying, ca,
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, there's nothing like it.
Speaker 4: Oh it's so beautiful.
Speaker 2: Well, I feel like no one who has listened to
Speaker 2: this point in the episode will need any convincing of.
Speaker 4: Why the juggle.
Speaker 2: Your Beautiful book is such a valuable and validating and
Speaker 2: cathartic guide.
Speaker 4: To the juggle.
Speaker 2: Literally, it's out like as we type, as we type,
Speaker 2: oh my god, see mam brain, it's out as we speak,
Speaker 2: and as you guys, listen, I think it's on presale,
Speaker 2: but within a couple of days of this coming out,
Speaker 2: it will be officially on sale.
Speaker 4: But how are you feeling? Where can we find it?
Speaker 4: Where can we get it?
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm so excited, So I think it will be
Speaker 1: out in the world by the time this is released,
Speaker 1: maybe a couple of days afterwards, so it'll be out
Speaker 1: in limited bookstores, or you can also find it on
Speaker 1: the Brio Books website or in my Instagram link in
Speaker 1: bio if you want to check me out at Genevieve Underscore.
Speaker 2: Day and it will be in my Instagram bio as well. Everybody,
Speaker 2: as well as the show notes for this episode, Jen,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for everything you do and have
Speaker 2: done on a personal level for me, but also now
Speaker 2: for the broader motherhood population on Planet Parent, where we're
Speaker 2: all just like totally unhinged and sleep deprived but fulfilled
Speaker 2: and happy and wondrous all at the same time.
Speaker 1: No, thank you so much saying you're the best.
Speaker 2: Well, that was meant to be a shorter form episode
Speaker 2: on The Juggle, and it ended up being a longer form,
Speaker 2: juicy chat about pretty much everything. But that kind of
Speaker 2: is the juggle, I guess, and I found it incredibly cathartic.
Speaker 2: And I don't think you can ever hear enough that
Speaker 2: you're not alone in balancing all the different things that
Speaker 2: we're trying to balance, no matter what structure your career
Speaker 2: and your life and how many kids you have and whatever.
Speaker 2: Like everyone's going through it, And I hope that this
Speaker 2: was reassuring and a really nice addition to the CZA
Speaker 2: lineup for you guys. Really enjoying this segment so far,
Speaker 2: and also feel like, hopefully it will be a great
Speaker 2: addition to an extension of all the copying and pasting
Speaker 2: I've been doing on DMS trying to answer you eloquently.
Speaker 4: Please let me know what you think.
Speaker 2: Please share the episode, of course, go to the show
Speaker 2: notes and get the link to Gen's book, and we'll
Speaker 2: be back with more shortly. In the meantime, I hope
Speaker 2: you're seizing your ya