Speaker 1: A warning before we begin.
Speaker 2: In this episode, Donna describes several crime scenes in graphic detail.
Speaker 2: The conversation includes references to domestic violence, suicide, and the
Speaker 2: death of a child.
Speaker 1: Please listen with care.
Speaker 2: JOHNA. Naylor pulls up in front of a house in Ballana,
Speaker 2: just below the New South Wales Queensland border. The first
Speaker 2: thing she sees is a bloody handprint on the front door.
Speaker 2: Sheets and donner covers have been plastered on the windows
Speaker 2: to stop the outside world looking in. If you feel
Speaker 2: unsafe at any time, I want you to call the police,
Speaker 2: the officer who lets.
Speaker 1: Her in says.
Speaker 2: She enters, and as soon as her ris focus on
Speaker 2: the hallway, she feels a gasp of horror rising in
Speaker 2: her throat. It looks like five liters of red paint
Speaker 2: has been thrown down. It smears made by hands can
Speaker 2: be seen all along the walls. It's blood, endless amounts
Speaker 2: of blood. She soon discovers it in every room of
Speaker 2: the house. In the bedroom, a wooden bed frame lies
Speaker 2: in pieces on the floor. In the skirting board next
Speaker 2: to it a gaping hole. This is a murder scene,
Speaker 2: one of the worst Donna has ever seen, and she's
Speaker 2: been hired to clean it. I'm Jemma Bath and you're
Speaker 2: listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's
Speaker 2: most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know
Speaker 2: the most about them. That Baalan a job haunts Donna.
Speaker 2: She can still see the smiling photos of the couple
Speaker 2: on the fridge, but after witnessing what he did to
Speaker 2: her in that house, she felt her pain in every
Speaker 2: room she thinks of that young woman often. Donna Naylor
Speaker 2: was a hairdresser on the Gold Coast of Australia for
Speaker 2: nearly a decade before deciding to turn her life on
Speaker 2: its head at the age of twenty five to become
Speaker 2: a crime scene cleaner instead. It's a job that required
Speaker 2: her to walk alongside death, witness unimaginable grief, and see
Speaker 2: scenes reminiscent of horror films. Some jobs took hours, some
Speaker 2: took weeks. On occasion, she'd need a month. Donna's job
Speaker 2: was to make things disappear as if they had never happened.
Speaker 2: But what she saw while doing that it's hard to comprehend.
Speaker 2: Donna spent six years as a crime scene cleaner before
Speaker 2: making the decision to walk away. She's written a book
Speaker 2: about her experience. It's called Bloodstains and Ball Gowns. Donna
Speaker 2: joins us now to take us inside her world. Donna,
Speaker 2: thank you for joining us on True Crime Conversations. So
Speaker 2: your first career was as a hairdresser. How do you
Speaker 2: go from hair to crime scene cleaning?
Speaker 1: It was something that I saw on a TV show
Speaker 1: when I was younger. It was about a man that
Speaker 1: was cleaning crime scenes. I'd never heard of it before.
Speaker 1: I didn't know anyone that had heard of it, and
Speaker 1: it just sparked something inside me. He had the personality
Speaker 1: that I do, and he spoke about how much money
Speaker 1: he made. So there were two things that you know,
Speaker 1: I like helping people as well, and I didn't realize
Speaker 1: to the effect of how much I really liked helping people.
Speaker 1: So I started researching and my career took off.
Speaker 2: How do you become a crime scene cleaner in Australia?
Speaker 1: Because you were talking about how it's quite a tight
Speaker 1: lit society. Yeah it is, I mean it's not so
Speaker 1: much now a lot more people are doing it. When
Speaker 1: I started, it was like a secret society. There was
Speaker 1: only a few of us that were doing it in
Speaker 1: the whole country I studied via America. I got people
Speaker 1: to help me that were doing trainer and assessor to
Speaker 1: help me learn about health and safety and drug labs
Speaker 1: or working at heights and all of those things. To
Speaker 1: make sure that I was protected and that I could
Speaker 1: do the best job that I could because there was
Speaker 1: no way to learn unless you were on the job.
Speaker 1: But I wanted to make sure that I was a
Speaker 1: little bit ahead of myself.
Speaker 2: So there's no crime sceneing course, No, there's no When
Speaker 2: you told your loved ones, your parents, your friends, that
Speaker 2: this is what you wanted to do, what was their reaction?
Speaker 1: They were all for it. My parents are so supportive.
Speaker 1: My sister's a firefighter, so it's not like myself going
Speaker 1: into death services was something that would shock them. I
Speaker 1: think it was they kind of had a feeling that
Speaker 1: I would do something a little bit different.
Speaker 2: So when you say death services, is that a kind
Speaker 2: of area that you were interested in?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Always, growing up, I was interested in being a mortician.
Speaker 1: I've always I like the spiritual world. You know, there's
Speaker 1: just a side of that that intrigues me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, tell me about that first toe dip into the world.
Speaker 2: Because you called a company and they basically arranged for
Speaker 2: you to have an interview and see a scene all
Speaker 2: at once.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It was nerve racking, but it was also really exciting.
Speaker 1: I felt part of the team as soon as I
Speaker 1: got there. I was seeing people that I've seen things
Speaker 1: that other people weren't privy to. At that point, it
Speaker 1: just created a fire in my belly that I wanted
Speaker 1: this more than anything. You've either got it or you don't,
Speaker 1: And in that moment, I realized I had it and
Speaker 1: I wanted it. What was the scene that you turned
Speaker 1: up too? I went to a drug lab in Surface Paradise.
Speaker 1: Everybody on that floor had been upgraded.
Speaker 2: Because it was a hotel. It was a hotel, yeah, Wow,
Speaker 2: and there's a drug lab inside a Yeah.
Speaker 1: It happens quite a long really, yeah. So the cleaner
Speaker 1: passed out and that's when that they knew that something
Speaker 1: was wrong. The gentlemen had left their bond, so they'd
Speaker 1: left a two hundred dollar cash bond. They called them
Speaker 1: to come back and get their bond. So the guys
Speaker 1: came back for their bond and there was five cock
Speaker 1: cars waiting for them. Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what is a cleanup of that kind of magnitude?
Speaker 2: Take because drugs, I imagine they're like in the walls.
Speaker 1: It's everywhere, So it is in the insulation, in a roof,
Speaker 1: it goes into wood, it goes into anything that is absorbent.
Speaker 1: So basically everything has to be disposed of correctly, but
Speaker 1: also cleans to remove the toxins that are in the walls.
Speaker 2: So I'm imagining you have a pretty hectic outfit that
Speaker 2: you wear to do something like that. What does it
Speaker 2: look like.
Speaker 1: I'm covered from head to toe. I have a gas
Speaker 1: mask on. No inch of my skin is seen. I've
Speaker 1: got double gloves on that are taped to my wrists,
Speaker 1: the white suit on boots, boot covers, the mask. I've
Speaker 1: got it all.
Speaker 2: Because your safety is it at risk in this job? Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: I mean you know for that, You've got the gases
Speaker 1: for decomposed bodies, You've got the blood borne pathogens. I
Speaker 1: got it. I got it in my eye once, really, yes,
Speaker 1: and my eye is still sensitive. My eye was so
Speaker 1: red it was unbelievable. I went to the chemist. We
Speaker 1: went to the doctor and went to the chemist and
Speaker 1: they said, we've never seen a you know, something in
Speaker 1: the eye like this, And I said, I was playing
Speaker 1: with dead bodies, the look on their face. So yeah,
Speaker 1: you have to be very careful. That was only one
Speaker 1: incident that I had the whole time. But it's still
Speaker 1: bothering you, it's still bothering me. Yeah, I must have
Speaker 1: just mustard wiped.
Speaker 2: So we've talked about what you wear, but what do
Speaker 2: you bring to a job like this?
Speaker 1: I have a full truckload everything and anything that you
Speaker 1: can think of, even from a jackhammer through to a
Speaker 1: tiny toothbrush. It's so wide. I mean, it's demolition as
Speaker 1: well as cleaning, so you need to make sure that
Speaker 1: you've got everything that's there.
Speaker 2: So it's not as easy as like a spray bottle
Speaker 2: and a clean and a cleaning cloth.
Speaker 1: No, it's it's hard work, very hard work once you
Speaker 1: have the job.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what does your day to day look like? Is
Speaker 2: it an everyday job? Is it just in I know
Speaker 2: you were based in Queensland or are you being flown
Speaker 2: across the country?
Speaker 1: Flown and I drove around most of the country, so
Speaker 1: you're on call twenty four seven. Yep, that's the hardest part.
Speaker 1: So I could be sitting here chatting with you now
Speaker 1: my phone could ring and then I would have to
Speaker 1: go so sometimes I'd be at one job I hadn't
Speaker 1: even finished it, and another one would come in. Some
Speaker 1: jobs can take a day, some can take weeks. Everything's
Speaker 1: so different. So but I was very busy.
Speaker 2: You mentioned money. Can we talk money?
Speaker 1: How lucrative is it? It's changed now the market is flooded.
Speaker 1: I mean it's when I started. There wasn't many of
Speaker 1: us doing it, so we did get paid very handsomely.
Speaker 1: It is more well known now. There's an episode on
Speaker 1: The Simpsons It's got a crime scene clean scs. I
Speaker 1: have a crime scene cleaner come in. At the end.
Speaker 1: You've got the movie The Cleaner Sunshine Cleaning. So a
Speaker 1: lot of people just like I did, see it and
Speaker 1: say I could do this, and so a lot of
Speaker 1: people do try. So they'ren't about a quarter of what
Speaker 1: I was on well back then. Now and who is
Speaker 1: paying you? Who are the clients? Well, this was the
Speaker 1: thing that really shocked me and was quite sad. It
Speaker 1: would be people like yourself. So if you own a
Speaker 1: home and something happens in your home, it's the homeowner
Speaker 1: that pays for it. I did do some work with
Speaker 1: the police. I've done somewhere with the government as well,
Speaker 1: everything is so different, but it's generally the families and
Speaker 1: that's the hardest to go there, which is why I
Speaker 1: liked it. You would want me to turn up having
Speaker 1: that hairdresser background. I had the empathy that it wasn't.
Speaker 1: I wanted to help them, to make them, you know,
Speaker 1: make some part of it disappear. It wasn't just money.
Speaker 1: But to have to say, oh, and by the way,
Speaker 1: it's going to cost X y Z is it's a
Speaker 1: hard thing to do. They're already going through so much.
Speaker 2: I can imagine not everyone can afford your service. So
Speaker 2: what would people do if they couldn't afford.
Speaker 1: Sorry, I did have that. I've had that a couple
Speaker 1: of times, so sometimes they don't have to have us there.
Speaker 1: It does cause a lot of danger if body fluids
Speaker 1: are left in, you know, in the house still, it
Speaker 1: can make people sick. It's not okay. So I would
Speaker 1: generally clean up what the worst part of it was,
Speaker 1: and then I would guide them to when the hazardous
Speaker 1: was gone, I would, you know, help them restore.
Speaker 2: But it sounds like, you know, mothers, nephews, aunties are
Speaker 2: all cleaning up. Yeah, the worst thing they've ever seen,
Speaker 2: because they wouldn't be able to afford someone like that.
Speaker 1: There is though sometimes depending on the scene, there is
Speaker 1: victims assist so sometimes the government will will help in
Speaker 1: certain situations so that Bill can go towards myself the funeral.
Speaker 2: Tell me about your first official job. It was another
Speaker 2: drug lab. Yes, what happened? What was what was the
Speaker 2: situation that was?
Speaker 1: If that was a little bit scary, there were some
Speaker 1: naughty people that were involved in that. It was a
Speaker 1: gentleman who was cooking drugs in his house, in his garage,
Speaker 1: and he decided to not pay his mortgage. So they
Speaker 1: came to change the locks, and when they did, they
Speaker 1: saw what they saw. So we got flown up to
Speaker 1: you know, take it back over. But he was still
Speaker 1: out and he was sending people around, threatening us. By
Speaker 1: the end he was okay. There was one hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty needles that were on the floor that I found.
Speaker 1: There was a baby that was crawling around, so I
Speaker 1: mean at the end he realized for the safety it
Speaker 1: was better for us to be there. I mean, he
Speaker 1: was caught anyway, It wasn't us that caught him. We
Speaker 1: never worked. I didn't work for the police, you know,
Speaker 1: I did jobs. If they needed us, but I wasn't
Speaker 1: a part of that. So once he understood that, it
Speaker 1: was safety. But it was pretty daunting and pretty scary
Speaker 1: to start with, especially as your first job.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like as a crime scene cleaning, you're not expecting
Speaker 2: to come into contact with the criminals.
Speaker 1: No, but we come into contact with so many people.
Speaker 1: I mean sometimes it's comical, you know, the people that
Speaker 1: will turn up and the situations that we'd get ourselves into.
Speaker 1: It kind of was a little bit of light. You'd
Speaker 1: have neighbors sneaking in the back to try and steal
Speaker 1: things from the house, and people wild wild.
Speaker 2: Your first solo job, ye happened to be a murder.
Speaker 2: It was, Yeah, what happened.
Speaker 1: It was a family that were playing cards, drinking and
Speaker 1: it got violent and unfortunately somebody lost their life. Turning
Speaker 1: up that day, I didn't know what I was walking into.
Speaker 1: I'd never seen or expected what I saw. The scope
Speaker 1: part for me was they'd put a sheet up, so
Speaker 1: walking in the room and having to pull the sheet
Speaker 1: back and seeing what I saw, the stab wounds down
Speaker 1: the walls, and the family that they also couldn't afford
Speaker 1: to have me there, so the auntie was helping me
Speaker 1: clean up as well, which was it was heartbreaking, heartbreaking
Speaker 1: to Sea because it was her nephew. It was her nephew.
Speaker 2: Yeah, did you imagine going into this job that you
Speaker 2: would be dealing with grieving families as much as you did?
Speaker 1: I think yes or no. It would be naive of
Speaker 1: me to think that I wouldn't be. I just didn't
Speaker 1: realize on how much I would deal with them. I mean,
Speaker 1: in some cases I wouldn't I wouldn't see them at all.
Speaker 1: Depending on the severity of the crime, especially in domestic violence,
Speaker 1: sometimes I didn't meet them at all.
Speaker 2: Up next, Donna opens up about one of the most
Speaker 2: horrific crime scenes she was ever called into clean. I
Speaker 2: want to move on to another domestic violence murder scene
Speaker 2: that you attended in Ballina. It's one of the worst
Speaker 2: scenes you were called to write in your book. I
Speaker 2: was interested to read in the details about how you
Speaker 2: were packing up belongings in the house for him and her. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so it's not just cleaning, it's kind of rearranging this
Speaker 2: house as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's depending on With that one, it was so sad.
Speaker 1: I could see the violence growing as I was in
Speaker 1: the house cleaning her blood was over pretty much everything,
Speaker 1: so having to pack up her staff and dispose of
Speaker 1: it as well as his it's hard you can picture
Speaker 1: the whole scene that's there. Yeah, really that was a
Speaker 1: really difficult one, very difficult. Can you describe from the
Speaker 1: moment you arrived at that house? So from the moment
Speaker 1: that we got to the front door, there was a
Speaker 1: bloody hamprint on the front door. Opened the front door,
Speaker 1: there was two holes I can see them now that
Speaker 1: were made by her head. She was the same height
Speaker 1: as me. And then turned down the hallway and there
Speaker 1: was just blood everywhere. There was blood up on the
Speaker 1: ceiling as well. Just on the force of the blood
Speaker 1: force trauma that was happening to her. It carried all
Speaker 1: the way down the house, in every single room that
Speaker 1: she was trying to get away from. She ended up
Speaker 1: her bed was broken, but she actually ended up with
Speaker 1: her head through the wall, down on the skirting board,
Speaker 1: and that's where she lay.
Speaker 2: It's hard to comprehend that level of violence.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So they had been drinking the night that night,
Speaker 1: having a good time. Something must have must have snapped
Speaker 1: or erupted. He put her head through the wall and
Speaker 1: he took a like a blunt weapon, and he just
Speaker 1: started beating her with it. But the violence was growing
Speaker 1: as it went through the house. She was so close
Speaker 1: to the front door when it started, and I wish
Speaker 1: she had just made her way around him somehow and
Speaker 1: got out the front door. She ended up in the
Speaker 1: back of the house. So the violence grew and she
Speaker 1: was found to ceased in her bedroom. So walking from
Speaker 1: room to room, you could tell what had happened. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the violence was growing as it went through. Yeah, how
Speaker 1: did that case that job affect you. I think about
Speaker 1: it all the time. It's something that I'll never get over.
Speaker 1: I look at I as we all do. I feel
Speaker 1: very strongly about domestic violence. You know, if they hit
Speaker 1: you once, they're going to hit you again. Don't ever
Speaker 1: let it. If it happens once, just leave, Please leave.
Speaker 1: You don't want me coming through your front door. No.
Speaker 2: I noticed in a lot of the domestic violence scenes
Speaker 2: that you went to the bedroom beatured heavily.
Speaker 1: Can you talk to that, Yeah, so it's like being
Speaker 1: in a horror movie. I mean, it's easy for me
Speaker 1: to say because I haven't been in that situation. I mean,
Speaker 1: with her, she was so close to the front door,
Speaker 1: in most cases, everyone is the women and the men
Speaker 1: as well. I went to some that was men also
Speaker 1: are close to the front door if you can somehow
Speaker 1: somehow get to that front door. Our bedroom is our sanctum.
Speaker 1: We all, you know, we all feel comfort there. So
Speaker 1: most people generally end up trying to take cover in
Speaker 1: their bedroom and they don't make it out. So I'm
Speaker 1: in my advice if I mean, for as small as
Speaker 1: it can be, and for not being in that situation,
Speaker 1: head for that front door, get out, get out in
Speaker 1: that job as well.
Speaker 2: I would love you to tell listeners about kind of
Speaker 2: the juxtaposition of being in such a violent kind of
Speaker 2: environment and then kind of looking.
Speaker 1: At the fridge and seeing photos. Yeah they're smiling down
Speaker 1: at you. Was that weird? What was that like? Yeah?
Speaker 1: It was. I mean I would find letters as well,
Speaker 1: a lot of letters that were written to themselves to
Speaker 1: other people, you know, saying sorry for this certainly the
Speaker 1: way that they were, but seeing the family photos that
Speaker 1: were there, I mean I went to one once where
Speaker 1: they'd actually turned all of the photos around so I
Speaker 1: never saw who they were, which was quite unusual, but
Speaker 1: they they did that for whatever reason. But it just
Speaker 1: shows you know, there's a fine line between love and hate,
Speaker 1: and things can turn so quickly. You've got a happy
Speaker 1: family that's that's on a fridge that's no longer.
Speaker 2: And did you find that certain families wanted different things
Speaker 2: done with the house? Did someone to re enter, some didn't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I went to one in particular that it
Speaker 1: was a suicide and the wife had committed suicide. The
Speaker 1: children found her. That was one of the hardest things
Speaker 1: I had to deal with for myself, that I saw
Speaker 1: what they saw, and I hope they forget it because
Speaker 1: they're only really young. He wanted nothing of her as
Speaker 1: nothing in the house. He wanted the house gone. There
Speaker 1: are some cases depending on culture, that you know people
Speaker 1: can't move back into them. But then I've been at
Speaker 1: somewhere the family staying in the home. So everybody does
Speaker 1: a grief differently. Whatever brings people peace is okay.
Speaker 2: Another DV case you talk about in your book involved
Speaker 2: a man who murdered his wife and then dropped his
Speaker 2: baby at the local church.
Speaker 1: And once again the level of violence. Yes, I can't
Speaker 1: use a particular washing powder because of that story. Why
Speaker 1: so he stayed in the house for nine hours after
Speaker 1: he killed her cleaning up getting rid of everything, but
Speaker 1: there was something that he couldn't get rid of. He
Speaker 1: had actually gutted her, so her stomach contents were on
Speaker 1: the floor, and he had used washing powder to put
Speaker 1: over the top of it, because it has got a
Speaker 1: very pungent smell. So that was a pile of washing
Speaker 1: powder that was in the middle of the floor. As
Speaker 1: I started shoveling into it out of feeling what I
Speaker 1: was going to come and come and see. And I
Speaker 1: can't smell that anymore.
Speaker 2: I think what shocked me reading these details is when
Speaker 2: you see headlines on the news about man murder's partner
Speaker 2: and stabs her to death or something along those lines.
Speaker 2: It sounds clinical, but hearing your descriptions of what that
Speaker 2: looks like in a house and what the blood and
Speaker 2: the violence actually when it plays out can be, it's
Speaker 2: really shocking.
Speaker 1: It's really shocking. And if we don't hear about a
Speaker 1: lot of them, most of them don't get get airtime,
Speaker 1: and they really should, especially suicides, they get zero airtime.
Speaker 1: And it's a big you know, it's something that I wish,
Speaker 1: I wish we were told more about because we need
Speaker 1: to be educated on it. To be able to help people. Well.
Speaker 2: According to kind of recent statistics, there are nine suicides
Speaker 2: a day in Australia. Did you attend many?
Speaker 1: I attended a lot. Christmas time is probably the worst
Speaker 1: I did, you know. I think every kind that you
Speaker 1: could think of, I did, and they were very hard.
Speaker 1: When you spoke about belonging, throwing out belonging is the
Speaker 1: hardest thing I've ever had to throw out. Was a
Speaker 1: wedding dress that was covered in brain matter.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it feels like a strange question to ask,
Speaker 2: But what is the hardest kind of job? Is it
Speaker 2: just all of the above?
Speaker 1: I find it. I always find that one hard answer. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, what's the most gruesome or what's the hardest?
Speaker 1: Because to me, a life is a life, no matter
Speaker 1: the age or the circumstance. The ones that I struggle
Speaker 1: with the most are the deaths where they have been
Speaker 1: deceased for weeks, months and nobody knows that they're there,
Speaker 1: and that the loneliness in this world is you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's heartbreaking.
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about one of those examples. Yeah, you
Speaker 2: were called to Brisbane after a twenty year old man,
Speaker 2: a young man died from natural causes in a rented property,
Speaker 2: and he'd been there for days before someone found him.
Speaker 2: And you're saying that scenario of you know, natural causes
Speaker 2: but then left there. Yeah, is something that you dealt
Speaker 2: with quite a lot.
Speaker 1: A lot of the time. That one was that was
Speaker 1: mind blowing. He had roommates. I could like, sorry, sorry, guys.
Speaker 1: I could smell him from the front of the house
Speaker 1: that was still living in the house. They were still
Speaker 1: in the house. The girl was inviting a to date.
Speaker 1: Or I could hear on the phone while the crime
Speaker 1: sin cleaners are in the house. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Did it surprise you how some humans are willing to
Speaker 2: live this job?
Speaker 1: Yes? Yes, make sure you clean house in place. The
Speaker 1: crime sin cleaner comes in, change aroundies in case you
Speaker 1: get hit by a bus, cleaning hours, in case of
Speaker 1: crime sink clean it comes through. I can spot hoarding
Speaker 1: houses a mile away. Why, but there's certain aspects to
Speaker 1: them that once you can see it from the I
Speaker 1: can see it from the outside. I just know what's
Speaker 1: going on on the inside. It's very common and it's
Speaker 1: not like the Showhoarders that's got nothing on what I've got.
Speaker 2: Can you describe the cleanup when a body has been
Speaker 2: there for a number of days, because I can imagine
Speaker 2: that takes a lot of different products. Yeah, a body decomposing,
Speaker 2: What does that what does that evolve for you?
Speaker 1: Ah, it would probably be my least favorite.
Speaker 2: It would.
Speaker 1: You know, there was mush, there was hair, there was maggots.
Speaker 1: The smell is like, is unbelievable. I bright vix under
Speaker 1: my nose so that I, you know, had a little
Speaker 1: bit of freshness that was there. But if if somebody
Speaker 1: is sitting on a lounge, it will go through the lounge.
Speaker 1: So you've got to cut that out because you have
Speaker 1: to dispose of things the right way as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you can't just throw it in the bin and then
Speaker 1: it starts seeping, so and it will seep up the
Speaker 1: walls as well.
Speaker 2: So depending on how long someone is left. Yeah, is
Speaker 2: the kind of size of mess you're dealing with.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it happens pretty quickly.
Speaker 2: Really. Yeah, it's quite depressing to think about, really that
Speaker 2: that's how that's what could happen to our bodies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. And especially if you don't you know,
Speaker 1: you don't have someone that notices that you're not around. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's probably the one thing that I struggle with the
Speaker 1: amount of loneliness that's around. If I you know, especially elderly,
Speaker 1: I always smile at them. Now I'm a better person.
Speaker 1: I'm nicer to people, and I smile at everyone because
Speaker 1: you just don't know how people are.
Speaker 2: We've talked about hoarding, and I think the details of
Speaker 2: what that hoarding can look like, the grossness. I want
Speaker 2: to kind of quote you back to yourself, just so
Speaker 2: listeners can understand what we're dealing with. One line you
Speaker 2: said that really got to me. We were uncovering nothing
Speaker 2: short of a rat tomb. Deep under the cupboards were
Speaker 2: rats nests full of dead rats buried in homes that
Speaker 2: had been turned into their graves. Yeah, you talk about
Speaker 2: fly feces covering walls, ground covered in maggots. In one instance,
Speaker 2: you saw a pot on a stove with liquid inside
Speaker 2: it full of newborn maggots. I mean, with all of
Speaker 2: that in mind, what is some of the grossest things?
Speaker 2: Have I touched on them? Am I even close?
Speaker 1: Probably the grossest in those hoarding houses is when they
Speaker 1: can no longer get to the bathroom, and so then
Speaker 1: they decide to go to the bathroom in items or
Speaker 1: in buckets. For one instance, he had filled the room,
Speaker 1: fulfilled the whole house, and I didn't realize there was
Speaker 1: a bucket sitting on top of this pile of rubbish,
Speaker 1: and I reached for it and it fell, and it
Speaker 1: was his toilet, and it soaked all through this already
Speaker 1: disgusting rubbish because it compacts, and then it starts the
Speaker 1: meath and gas that starts coming through, and it starts
Speaker 1: turning to mush underneath. So I had just made sloppy,
Speaker 1: poopy mass from the top all the way down the bottom.
Speaker 1: I made my life very hard that day.
Speaker 2: So you were dealing with this kind of scenario, these
Speaker 2: hoarding houses where people were living basically in their own fields.
Speaker 2: You dealt with this a lot.
Speaker 1: It was a lot. Yeah, it was one of the
Speaker 1: most common ones.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah. But there's different types of horders. So there's the
Speaker 1: ones that will just completely trash an entire house, except
Speaker 1: for the gentleman I spoke about before. His wife had
Speaker 1: passed earlier, and he left her room immaculate, but he
Speaker 1: trashed the rest of the house. But then there are
Speaker 1: others where they'll be the house will be bare, but
Speaker 1: they would have stashed the cupboards, so the cupboards the
Speaker 1: shower will be full of items, but the rest of
Speaker 1: the house is bare.
Speaker 2: How long did these cleanups take?
Speaker 1: Sometimes a month? Really? Yeah for one house? One house? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think what the most I ever did once was
Speaker 1: nineteen skip like the large skip bins, nineteen of them.
Speaker 1: I feeled, yeah, did.
Speaker 2: This job make you? I can imagine it would make
Speaker 2: me cleaner in my own house.
Speaker 1: I mean, look, my parents will probably and my sister
Speaker 1: would disagree. Sometimes I can be a little of a hurricane.
Speaker 2: But I do.
Speaker 1: I'm very aware of the finer details in things. So ah, flagpoop,
Speaker 1: for instance, a lot of people don't know what it
Speaker 1: looks like. I can spot it all the time, so
Speaker 1: I always make sure that that's gone, or cobwebs or
Speaker 1: those little things. But I always have clothes everywhere.
Speaker 2: There is a difference between kind of like clutter and dirtiness.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, there is.
Speaker 2: Are there any other jobs that you think back on
Speaker 2: that really stay with you?
Speaker 1: I think, I mean, look all of them, all of
Speaker 1: them really do. Sadly, I did go to a baby
Speaker 1: murder and that one that one has stuck with me.
Speaker 1: The people that were turning up at the front door
Speaker 1: that day, I probably had one hundred cars that drove
Speaker 1: by that wanted to wanted to see and I never see. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I never understand it. I don't know what. There
Speaker 1: was a dead end street and they were driving around
Speaker 1: because they wanted to see something. I mean, nobody wants
Speaker 1: to see what I saw that day. Yeah, that one
Speaker 1: stuck with me. They all stick with me. I'll remember
Speaker 1: every single every single person.
Speaker 2: After the break, I asked Donna what kep to returning
Speaker 2: to this work despite the traumatic scenes she witnessed? What
Speaker 2: made you keep going back? What was rewarding or was
Speaker 2: it the money?
Speaker 1: Like? What made you want to keep doing it? It's
Speaker 1: a hard thing to say. I enjoyed my job. You know,
Speaker 1: I got a lot of I don't know the correct
Speaker 1: word for it, but I felt so good after doing
Speaker 1: it and restoring things back to normal. I liked I
Speaker 1: liked helping the people. You know, as I said before,
Speaker 1: I'd want me to turn up. You know, if anything's
Speaker 1: happened in my family, I'd want it to be me. So,
Speaker 1: you know, the job satisfaction that I got out of it,
Speaker 1: I was making a difference. I was definitely making a difference.
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 2: So you were a hairdresser, turned cleaner. I'm interested to know,
Speaker 2: like some of your colleagues, how they ended up in
Speaker 2: the job. Did people kind of find their way there
Speaker 2: in interesting ways?
Speaker 1: I mean, as I said, when I started, there was
Speaker 1: only a couple of us that were doing it, and
Speaker 1: it was just something that they had started off, you know,
Speaker 1: doing a cleaning business, which a lot doing. Then kind
Speaker 1: of branched into it. Then would just pull you know,
Speaker 1: friends that were into it. I could always take someone
Speaker 1: to a job with me, so I would take, you know,
Speaker 1: if I needed to take a friend with me along.
Speaker 1: Oh really yeah? Yeah? Sometimes yeah. They had to have
Speaker 1: a strong stomach.
Speaker 2: While working this job. You made a habit to start
Speaker 2: calling your family every day.
Speaker 1: When did that start work? I did that start? I
Speaker 1: realized that you just don't know the last time that
Speaker 1: you'll be able to call them, and how important it
Speaker 1: is to keep that connection going. I still call them morning,
Speaker 1: and I've created a little monster in my dad. If
Speaker 1: I don't call, he thinks there's something wrong. But I do.
Speaker 1: I always have no matter where I am, what I'm doing.
Speaker 1: Before I came to see here today, I called him.
Speaker 2: Did you just to tell him you were all right? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Telling where I was what I was doing always.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what has doing that job taught you about humanity
Speaker 2: and humans and what makes us us?
Speaker 1: It's it's shown some good and some bad. You know,
Speaker 1: there's some really good people in this world, and it
Speaker 1: showed me that there's some really bad people in this world.
Speaker 1: If you take accountability for yourself, you know, you can
Speaker 1: make a difference, being more aware of your surroundings and
Speaker 1: people that are around you, just being kind. You know,
Speaker 1: not everyone is kind. I realized that a lot of
Speaker 1: people are going through things that we don't don't realize.
Speaker 1: You know, we think we're having a bad day. Our
Speaker 1: bad day is nothing. I mean, I'm speaking for myself
Speaker 1: and not everyone else. But my bad day is nothing
Speaker 1: to what some people go through. So I'm more aware
Speaker 1: of that. First, Well, problems don't bother me.
Speaker 2: I know. We talked about jobs that stay with you,
Speaker 2: But are there any people any families?
Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think they all hold a
Speaker 1: little place in my heart, every single one of them,
Speaker 1: for all different reasons. I think I owe it to
Speaker 1: them to not forget them. So I think probably that's
Speaker 1: why I look at them all the same. You know,
Speaker 1: that's the way that I had to look at each
Speaker 1: person exactly the same way. So I think that's why
Speaker 1: they all hold a little space in my heart. Did
Speaker 1: you ever have to clean someone's house that you knew?
Speaker 1: And No, I haven't, luckily, But I do tell my
Speaker 1: friends if certain friends are going and you know, renting
Speaker 1: a house or staying in an apartment. I did actually
Speaker 1: have a friend the other day that's saying how excited
Speaker 1: he is to live in this new apartment that he's
Speaker 1: living in. And he showed this view, and I've seen
Speaker 1: that view before. It's not the same room. So and
Speaker 1: I would never tell him. He probably will listen to
Speaker 1: this and he has no idea it's him. But I
Speaker 1: did a horrific suicide there.
Speaker 2: Because a lot of these homes are kind of like gutted, repainted,
Speaker 2: and it's sold often for cheap. Yeah, because of what's happened.
Speaker 2: Would you buy one of those homes? Could you live
Speaker 2: in a house knowing this has happened, something bad has happened?
Speaker 2: It depends.
Speaker 1: It depends on what it was that had happened and
Speaker 1: how spiritually I felt in that house. Okay, how I
Speaker 1: felt in that house. I could feel a lot of emotion,
Speaker 1: whether you believe in it or not, how you see it.
Speaker 1: It was an emotion. It was emotional to go through there.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I would walk in feeling a certain way, and
Speaker 1: I'd leave feeling another. I don't know if I could,
Speaker 1: You know, I probably couldn't, only because I'm there for
Speaker 1: the whole amount of time, from the start to the finish.
Speaker 1: I saw absolutely everything. Ignorance is blissed. So if you
Speaker 1: don't really know what happened, could peacefully live there where
Speaker 1: I would turn the corner and I would still see
Speaker 1: what I saw.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I know we talked about you living in
Speaker 2: some of the well going to some of these houses
Speaker 2: where you know, people had died and been left there
Speaker 2: for days, weeks. But you were also often at houses
Speaker 2: within hours of at night since a murder, so really fresh,
Speaker 2: really fresh emotion and kind of blood and everything, and
Speaker 2: I can imagine that would be quiet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was that. I would always ask to wait
Speaker 1: until the coroner had gone, you know, I didn't need
Speaker 1: to see more than what I was already saying.
Speaker 2: Did you ever find evidence ever help police while they
Speaker 2: were doing these cases?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so most of the time the scenes were finished,
Speaker 1: so the police were done, and I would just be
Speaker 1: there a clean but if I did ever find anything
Speaker 1: that was of use, I would always pass it over.
Speaker 1: But most of the time I would find money or valuables,
Speaker 1: and then I would pass it over to the family,
Speaker 1: depending on what that was like. A lot of people
Speaker 1: asked me to go looking for certain things in the house,
Speaker 1: especially in the horning houses, so it was like treasure hunting, yep. I.
Speaker 2: Another thing that kind of surprised me while reading your
Speaker 2: book was, yes, you were coming into contact with kind
Speaker 2: of grieving family members, but also kind of family members
Speaker 2: there to contest a will or to that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Yes, it happened a lot, and it's sad. You know,
Speaker 1: somebody's just died and they're already, you know, waiting to
Speaker 1: be there. There was two sisters at one one point
Speaker 1: that I knew because of the nosy neighbor had been
Speaker 1: cut out of the will, and she was one that
Speaker 1: I found sneaking in through the back door. I found
Speaker 1: it stealing two dollars, like give a back while you
Speaker 1: were there cleaning. Yeah, while I was there cleaning. She
Speaker 1: then asked for this this rope that was in the garage,
Speaker 1: and I said that she could have it. But only
Speaker 1: because I knew there was a rat's nest in it.
Speaker 2: So you were like, not just a cleaner, You're a bodyguard,
Speaker 2: You're a therapist, you're yeah, all of these different things,
Speaker 2: all of those things. Some cases, I did have to
Speaker 2: have a couple or two. I had a bodyguard twice
Speaker 2: on two different jobs.
Speaker 1: Can talk about either of those. Yeah. So one of
Speaker 1: them was on I got Flint in Melbourne. It was
Speaker 1: going to be a movie set and this place that
Speaker 1: they were having it was full of needles. I probably
Speaker 1: found aout three hundred needles in there, but they needed
Speaker 1: to stop the users coming back. So that was really interesting,
Speaker 1: and I had a bodyguard with you the whole time
Speaker 1: for that. The other one was at another murder scene.
Speaker 1: I had someone that needed to be there. The families
Speaker 1: hadn't mate yet, so they needed to make sure that
Speaker 1: I was going to be okay as well, so because
Speaker 1: sometimes they don't people don't know that you're there, so
Speaker 1: you know, tensions run high, and I needed to make
Speaker 1: sure that I was going to be okay.
Speaker 2: When you think back to twenty five year old Donna,
Speaker 2: who was excited to start this job and I'd seen
Speaker 2: it on TV. Was it what you expected.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was?
Speaker 2: Was it?
Speaker 1: Yeah? It was? And I watched that show now and
Speaker 1: I'm like, damn, I could do that better? Do you
Speaker 1: kind of you're out of it now. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So when you see horrific murders or anything on TV,
Speaker 2: is that what you think about? Do you think about
Speaker 2: what's left behind the house?
Speaker 1: I think about the families. Okay, it's the ones that
Speaker 1: are left behind that suffer the most of any scene
Speaker 1: that we're in. So I always think about that. I
Speaker 1: don't have to pick my phone up anymore when I'm
Speaker 1: watching the news and waiting for things to happen. So
Speaker 1: you would watch the news and then you would get
Speaker 1: a call. I would wait and see. Yeah. So media
Speaker 1: get onto things pretty quickly. So I mean the dream World.
Speaker 1: I was actually going to offer my services for the
Speaker 1: Dream World when I was going to drive up there
Speaker 1: that day, wow to help them with that. But there
Speaker 1: were so many that I watched and I think my
Speaker 1: phone's going to ring in a.
Speaker 2: Minute, and the dream World won For people that don't know, Yeah,
Speaker 2: can you just tell.
Speaker 1: Us about what that was? The dream World was an
Speaker 1: accident that happened on one of the rides that were there.
Speaker 1: People were killed, but the scene would have was horrific.
Speaker 1: The families watched them as well. So I saw that
Speaker 1: and I I thought I need to go help them.
Speaker 1: The amount of helicopters and everything that was going on,
Speaker 1: I thought maybe I should just just wait a little
Speaker 1: bit and see if I do get the call up
Speaker 1: for it. But I wanted to help. I didn't want
Speaker 1: to be paid. I just wanted to help. Wow. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you really have to have a strong stomach though for
Speaker 1: this job. Yeah you do, Yes, you do, and I
Speaker 1: don't know why. But it doesn't affect That doesn't affect me, really, yeah,
Speaker 1: it doesn't. I mean, I've seen skulls hanging out of
Speaker 1: the roof with hair still attached and brains still behind
Speaker 1: a headboard, you know, bodies, the outline of a body
Speaker 1: moving with the maggots still in it. But it doesn't,
Speaker 1: it doesn't. I can still eat my lunch afterwards. Really,
Speaker 1: even hearing about that makes my stomach. But I'm scared
Speaker 1: of the dark I'm doing. I'm scared, and I don't
Speaker 1: like horror movies. But otherwise, I mean, you know, why
Speaker 1: do you think that is?
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I definitely, but it was before that so I would
Speaker 1: start work really early. I'd got like five am, the
Speaker 1: sun had just come up, but as soon as it
Speaker 1: started getting dark, being scared of the dark and being
Speaker 1: in a house that and MD has happened in the
Speaker 1: blood all of the walls. I'm out sea in the morning.
Speaker 2: Especially because you did, because you live in Queensland. You
Speaker 2: do a lot of jobs in Queensland. And the heat,
Speaker 2: I can imagine that just adds another element.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it just makes things go a lot, a
Speaker 1: lot faster. So as in like decomposition. Yeah, yep, the
Speaker 1: heat definitely does death always smell the same. It smells
Speaker 1: a little bit different depending on the person. The smell
Speaker 1: of a dec a dead body is a smell I'll
Speaker 1: never forget. It stands it really does stand out. But
Speaker 1: each body, each body part also smells slightly different as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so brain has a certain smell, blood has a certain smell,
Speaker 1: your stomach content has a certain smell. It's all slightly different.
Speaker 2: I guess you, Like, I've never been in a position
Speaker 2: to ask someone who has smelted. No, you don't want
Speaker 2: to know, But you wouldn't think. I wouldn't think that
Speaker 2: body parts could smell different.
Speaker 1: No, Yeah, it's to see a body part on the
Speaker 1: outside of a body where it shouldn't be is I mean,
Speaker 1: brain is sticky. It's bizarre. And to actually me being me,
Speaker 1: being like, I'm just going to clean this brain off
Speaker 1: this wall. How do you clean this stuff?
Speaker 2: Like? Are you using bleach?
Speaker 1: No? I mean bleach is like the old school kind
Speaker 1: of way that you know killers do. I'm not going
Speaker 1: to tell you, okay, only because I don't want the
Speaker 1: wrong people to know, right, Okay, what I would use?
Speaker 1: That's smart. Yeah, I can make anything disappear, but only
Speaker 1: I need to know.
Speaker 2: That because I can imagine. If you're going into murdercines.
Speaker 2: You probably did see people trying to clean up.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of them did, and not very successfully.
Speaker 2: You did this job for six years, Yeah, what made
Speaker 2: you tap out?
Speaker 1: I wanted my life back, you know, I was getting older,
Speaker 1: and you know, I wanted to settle down a little
Speaker 1: bit more, not so settle down, not in the way
Speaker 1: that most people would think. I was on call twenty
Speaker 1: four seven. I missed friends, weddings, you know, there were
Speaker 1: certain things in life that I wanted to enjoy my
Speaker 1: own life. I do miss it. I do really miss it,
Speaker 1: but I needed to start creating in your life for myself.
Speaker 1: What have you been doing since you left? I'm a
Speaker 1: hairdresser again, you went back? Yes, I'll always be ahead.
Speaker 1: I love making people for fabulous?
Speaker 2: Is it different going back to hairdressing having had this
Speaker 2: kind of interlude, this whole different life in between. It is?
Speaker 1: And I don't usually tell that many people. I mean
Speaker 1: I try. When I was doing it, I would tell
Speaker 1: people I was an Arne's biscuit designer. That was my
Speaker 1: that was my job. Because people are obsessed by it.
Speaker 1: I mean down the pub, I've got so many stories.
Speaker 1: I mean, I could gross you all out if I
Speaker 1: if I really wanted to, But I'm trying to keep
Speaker 1: it pretty PG.
Speaker 2: What are people asking you about?
Speaker 1: What is the most? I mean it's always what's the
Speaker 1: worst thing? Yeah, you know, what's the worst thing that
Speaker 1: you've ever seen? I mean telling somebody that I, you know,
Speaker 1: a decomposed body of an old lady being consumed by
Speaker 1: Goanna is probably not people want Oh.
Speaker 2: My goodness, Yeah, you have really seen the worst of humanity.
Speaker 1: I've seen it all. I've seen seen it all. Yeah,
Speaker 1: has it affected you? It's made me a better person.
Speaker 2: Right, but not kind of psychologically affected you or anything.
Speaker 1: No. And I mean I know a lot of people
Speaker 1: will be like, it'll come back to you later in life.
Speaker 1: I have a different mindset. I feel like I always have.
Speaker 1: I look at life a little bit differently, so I
Speaker 1: try to take the positive out of things. Yeah, sounds
Speaker 1: like it's made you more empathetic. I'm much more empathetic,
Speaker 1: but it's I'm much more empathetic, but I'm also a
Speaker 1: bit more of a hard ass as well. When I
Speaker 1: went back into hairdressing, I went into a leadership course
Speaker 1: to try and change rewire my brain because you know,
Speaker 1: staff were coming up and you know I am sick
Speaker 1: today or my dog's see a law. I had no
Speaker 1: empathy for that side of life, right, and I needed
Speaker 1: to soften. I needed to soften again.
Speaker 2: When you've seen what you've seen, Yeah, I didn't care
Speaker 2: about you know, I sick hard not. What do you
Speaker 2: want people to understand about this world? You say that
Speaker 2: it is kind of a more popular occupation now, But
Speaker 2: for anyone listening that is intrigued, Yes, what's your advice
Speaker 2: to them?
Speaker 1: Eat your breakfast, read my book if it doesn't make
Speaker 1: you feel sick, then you could start looking into it.
Speaker 1: I mean, anyone's welcome to reach out to me to
Speaker 1: ask questions. I mean, maybe I do glamorize it a
Speaker 1: little bit. I mean it is hard work. It's not
Speaker 1: for the fainthearted. It's something that will stay with you forever.
Speaker 1: But if you like helping people, like getting your hands dirty,
Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, then go for it.
Speaker 1: But it's not for everyone.
Speaker 2: And it sounds like it's quite a solo profession. You're
Speaker 2: often working alone.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2: Thank you to Donna for joining us on this episode.
Speaker 2: We've linked her book, Bloodstains and Ball Gowns in our
Speaker 2: show notes. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back
Speaker 2: next week with another true crime conversation