Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Mom and Mia out Loud. It's
Speaker 2: what women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the fourth
Speaker 2: of March. My name is Holly wayIn.
Speaker 1: Wright, my name is Amelia Lester, and.
Speaker 3: My name is Clare Steps.
Speaker 2: And here's what's made our agenda for today. In the
Speaker 2: middle of a dramatic conflict, why are there so many
Speaker 2: headlines about influences stranded in Dubai.
Speaker 4: I'm going to mount a vigorous defense for oversharing. TMI
Speaker 4: is back and.
Speaker 3: Is it the end of Kyle and Jackie?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 3: We have questions.
Speaker 4: But in case you missed it, has Jim Carrey been cloned?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 4: I kept seeing headlines about his face looking weird, and
Speaker 4: I didn't care because I haven't thought about Jim Carrey
Speaker 4: since the mask, which for younger listeners was during a
Speaker 4: period called the nineteen nineties. But then I couldn't avoid
Speaker 4: this particular headline because in twenty twenty six, you know what,
Speaker 4: Jim Carrey probably has been cloned. And it's not even
Speaker 4: the craziest thing to happen today. Jim Carrey was in
Speaker 4: Paris recently receiving a prestigious award of which there is
Speaker 4: no other kind in France, and apparently he received the
Speaker 4: award by speaking influent French. But that wasn't even the
Speaker 4: strangest part of the whole thing. People thought he looked
Speaker 4: really different, and I'm talking really different. They were pointing
Speaker 4: out that this particular new Jim Carrey has light eyes,
Speaker 4: whereas real Jim Carrey has dark brown eyes. They were
Speaker 4: pointing out other like little bits of his face that
Speaker 4: looked very different. Even Megan Fox, remember her, She got
Speaker 4: in on the action. She said, I can't handle any
Speaker 4: more stress right now. I need to know if this
Speaker 4: is real. You and me, both, Maggie, you and me both. Fortunately,
Speaker 4: Jim's rep did come out and he confirmed that Jim
Speaker 4: has not been cloned, so we can all relax.
Speaker 3: That's what the rep of a clone would say.
Speaker 1: You're good, You're good. So are you? Are you a
Speaker 1: clone believer?
Speaker 3: Okay? The biggest source of confusion in this story for
Speaker 3: me is Jim Carrey in these photos and videos looks
Speaker 3: significantly less unrecognizable than most people in Hollywood right now,
Speaker 3: Like I was like, no, that's still him, that's still him.
Speaker 3: Does he look really different?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: But I honestly think there are about twenty five other
Speaker 3: people we need to ask questions.
Speaker 1: You can't have like slightly longer hair to me.
Speaker 2: Clone wars. I think it's interesting because clearly what has
Speaker 2: happened here is that Jim Carrey and who knows of
Speaker 2: what period of time, because as you said, merely we
Speaker 2: haven't really been watching, we haven't really been paying close attention,
Speaker 2: has done a lot of things to his face, and
Speaker 2: what interesting some.
Speaker 1: Just that masks fun intended.
Speaker 2: But what's interesting to me is that this is really
Speaker 2: interesting how this is how we talk about men who've
Speaker 2: done anti aging procedures and surgeries, where he's like, there
Speaker 2: must be something strange going on, he must be a clone.
Speaker 2: Whereas the women who were doing this to your point, Clare,
Speaker 2: we're all like, oh, so sad, slash so amazing.
Speaker 1: Slash sire emoji, so tragic.
Speaker 2: But also go you. But like with the men, we're
Speaker 2: just like, there must be a scientific explanation. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: it says a lot about true the aging of men
Speaker 2: and women's differently.
Speaker 3: And we find it interesting and like an investigation, but
Speaker 3: not in the sense of has he had an upper bleft?
Speaker 3: Not that it's like is he real? Yes?
Speaker 1: Is he real?
Speaker 3: Whereas when it's a woman, it's a moral failing. It is,
Speaker 3: and if she hasn't changed her face she's utterly discussing, it's.
Speaker 2: A moral failing both ways, whereas he's just a puzzle
Speaker 2: to be sold.
Speaker 3: For over twenty years, Kyle Sandlans and Jackie O Henderson
Speaker 3: have been Australia's most commercially successful and most controversial radio duo,
Speaker 3: but on Friday, the twentieth of February, the pair had
Speaker 3: an on air clash that appears to have completely blown
Speaker 3: up their working relationship. Anyone who has ever listened to
Speaker 3: the show, which I will admit.
Speaker 2: Is me, let's be clear, this is a very Sydney
Speaker 2: based show. Yeah right, So although they're national in some ways,
Speaker 2: Sydney people in particular have an intense relationship with Kyle
Speaker 2: and Jackiet.
Speaker 3: It's kind of unavoidable that you've been flicking through the
Speaker 3: radio and you've caught a segment. So anyone who has
Speaker 3: ever listened to it will know that a fight between
Speaker 3: them is unsurprising. There are often headlines about one of
Speaker 3: them storming out for summer. It'll be like, where's Kyle
Speaker 3: He hasn't shown up for work for five days, or
Speaker 3: that Jackie stormed out, whatever it is. But this clearly
Speaker 3: was different because on that Friday show a couple of
Speaker 3: weeks ago, they were addressing the news surrounding Andrew Mountbatton
Speaker 3: Windsor when Jackie read out the ex prince's astrological birth chime.
Speaker 2: Which is an angle we didn't think of.
Speaker 3: I know, I'm disappointed. I'm actually really disappointed, and Kyle
Speaker 3: lost it and I want to play a bit of
Speaker 3: that exchange. Your fixation on this has made you almost unworkable.
Speaker 2: It's not that bad.
Speaker 5: You're not talking.
Speaker 4: I'm talking to that like that's not fair like, but
Speaker 4: it's actually true.
Speaker 5: But you might have done that in five minutes.
Speaker 4: But you're off with the fairies with where you no, no, no,
Speaker 4: tell me where I've been off with the fairies during
Speaker 4: the show.
Speaker 2: I don't have to I don't have to prove something.
Speaker 3: Listen to the program.
Speaker 5: You'll hear yourself.
Speaker 2: Just give me to be aware of what's really.
Speaker 4: Can I ask you, as a I think it's better say,
Speaker 4: seasoned listener of this show, how is this exchange to
Speaker 4: your ears different from all those past blow ups that
Speaker 4: you've mentioned have been documented in the press.
Speaker 3: So in a lot of ways it's similar. Like they
Speaker 3: do press each other's buttons, and Jackie does go, oh,
Speaker 3: Kyle like if you if she had a SoundBite, it
Speaker 3: would just be Kyle like, why are you doing that?
Speaker 3: But in this particular one, I think you could tell
Speaker 3: that she was genuinely offended and embarrassed that he had
Speaker 3: embarrassed her.
Speaker 2: And to me, the most painful bit of that conversation
Speaker 2: isn't in that grab, but it's the bit where he says,
Speaker 2: ask anyone in the building, everyone who works here has
Speaker 2: been talking about it, and anyone in any workplace. The
Speaker 2: idea that everyone in the workplace is talking about them
Speaker 2: is particularly vicious.
Speaker 3: And she says back to him, I would never say
Speaker 3: things like that about you, which is true because as
Speaker 3: a listener, there are many days where you're like, Kyle
Speaker 3: is phoning it in today, he didn't go he was
Speaker 3: recording from home, doesn't give a crap, and Jackie plays
Speaker 3: along because that's how you have to do radio.
Speaker 4: So do you think the distinction was a little bit
Speaker 4: that they used to kind of like ragging on each
Speaker 4: other personally within these boundaries, but in this situation. He
Speaker 4: started telling her why she was bad at her job. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and that was what was galling to her about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that seems to be the line you don't cross.
Speaker 3: It's like he can comment on her appearance, he can
Speaker 3: comment on her love life, he can comment on her
Speaker 3: sex life anything, but actually her professionalism is one place
Speaker 3: that he doesn't usually.
Speaker 2: Happened immediately after that.
Speaker 3: When the news broke about Jackie walking out and not
Speaker 3: being on air. We talked about it in our meeting
Speaker 3: and we were trying to decide whether to cover it
Speaker 3: at that time because this kind of thing has happened
Speaker 3: a bit and we didn't know where it was going
Speaker 3: to end up. But then on Tuesday this week, ARN,
Speaker 3: the network therewith released a statement and it read, Jacqueline
Speaker 3: Henderson has given notice that she cannot continue to work
Speaker 3: with mister Kyle Sandalans. It went on to say that
Speaker 3: ARN has terminated their contract with her and she will
Speaker 3: cease to present the show, but they've offered her the
Speaker 3: possibility of an alternative show on the network. Then it
Speaker 3: went on to say that ARN have provided written notice
Speaker 3: to Sandalands that it considers his behavior during the segment
Speaker 3: an act of serious misconduct which is in breach of
Speaker 3: his contract, and he's been given fourteen days to remedy
Speaker 3: the breach and if it's not remedied, his contract will
Speaker 3: be terminated and for those fourteen days he won't be
Speaker 3: on the show. So the Kiss Breakfast Show, aka the
Speaker 3: most lucrative show in Australian radio, has been taken off
Speaker 3: air immediately.
Speaker 2: The reason that that is also such a big story
Speaker 2: too because again this is a Sydney radio show, but
Speaker 2: their national figures possibly because famously, when they sign this contract,
Speaker 2: it's the biggest contract in well in media, not just
Speaker 2: in radio. It's one hundred million.
Speaker 3: Dollars one hundred million dollars over ten years, so this
Speaker 3: is unprecedented money and that when they signed that contract
Speaker 3: it was quite public and it was a big celebration
Speaker 3: and it was seen as you know, oh, in the
Speaker 3: celebration for them, obviously not necessarily for the culture, but.
Speaker 2: It was a big celebration and seen as like, wow,
Speaker 2: this is the most lucrative partnership in Australian media, and
Speaker 2: no question is the most lucrative and she is, as
Speaker 2: Mia made the point when she was on No Filter
Speaker 2: the year before last the highest paid female in Australian
Speaker 2: media by a very long way. So this kind of
Speaker 2: paints a picture of why this story is so big
Speaker 2: because by blowing up this contract, as they have done
Speaker 2: obstensibly over this fight, they've blown up one hundred million dollars.
Speaker 1: And that's my question.
Speaker 4: Do we think that this contract blow up is about
Speaker 4: the fight or is there something else at work here?
Speaker 4: Either strategy on the radio networks part, Jackie's part, what
Speaker 4: do we think.
Speaker 3: You often get this in media, but there has been
Speaker 3: Like in January twenty twenty five, Jackie O did a
Speaker 3: Stella interview and she talked about the boys club in
Speaker 3: media that makes women feel like they don't matter and
Speaker 3: her talking about this stuff. It was kind of tied
Speaker 3: to promotion of her book, which came out late twenty
Speaker 3: twenty four. It is kind of the first time she's
Speaker 3: positioning herself as a bit of because she's in this
Speaker 3: partnership with somebody Kyle Sandalans, who is known to be
Speaker 3: absolute shock job, says awful things about women, and she's
Speaker 3: kind of clearly trying to separate herself from that. And
Speaker 3: then an in studio argument between Kyle and Jackie o
Speaker 3: seem to have happened in May twenty twenty five, but
Speaker 3: it was a similar conversation where Sandalans was criticizing Jackie's
Speaker 3: work habits and she stormed out and he kind of
Speaker 3: made fun of like, are you sure you're the full quid?
Speaker 3: Like is basically is there much going on up there?
Speaker 3: So there had been these little scandals that have sort
Speaker 3: of been going on for the past years, so I
Speaker 3: feel like it's been building.
Speaker 2: So to be clear too, when she wrote that memoir
Speaker 2: and she came into Mamma Mia and did two parts
Speaker 2: sit down with me or about that. We'd actually been
Speaker 2: trying to get her to come and talk to Momma
Speaker 2: Mia for a long time because, as I say, whether
Speaker 2: or not you approve of the Kyle and Jackie Oh
Speaker 2: Show and whether you approve of her role as kind
Speaker 2: of Kyle's chief apologist, which is a role she played
Speaker 2: for a very long time. She is a very significant
Speaker 2: media player. And when she wrote that memoir, she was
Speaker 2: very honest about the fact she'd struggled with addiction, that
Speaker 2: she'd gone into rehab in America for addiction to painkillers,
Speaker 2: that she'd been through, you know, over the course of
Speaker 2: two decades of working with Kyle. She'd been through all
Speaker 2: kinds of things, you know, fertility troubles, divorce, financial issues, addiction,
Speaker 2: and it was a very honest, frank kind of exploration
Speaker 2: of what that career was like to And obviously in
Speaker 2: the press for that, she is constantly asked, you sit
Speaker 2: next to this guy. Women hate this guy, although not
Speaker 2: all women hate this guy, obviously, but many women do.
Speaker 2: Aren't you enabling him? And one of the things that
Speaker 2: is obviously being speculated here is that for a very
Speaker 2: very long time she wore that and she literally sat
Speaker 2: there and in her book I've read a memoir, their
Speaker 2: friendship appears to be genuine. He also famously is the
Speaker 2: one who said will negotiate together anything I get paid,
Speaker 2: you get paid, which you know, she's always painted as
Speaker 2: a bit of a feminist move on his part, because
Speaker 2: he certainly didn't have to do that, And it feels
Speaker 2: to me like a sort of slow realization on her part,
Speaker 2: or maybe not a realization, but of that I don't
Speaker 2: think I can do this anymore. Yeah, you know, because
Speaker 2: I think that she has always been good for his brand,
Speaker 2: because she softens him, and there's always a kind of
Speaker 2: idea that well, if she's there, he can't really be
Speaker 2: a woman hating misogynist, even when he's calling a journalist
Speaker 2: a fat slag or he's doing one of the many
Speaker 2: other awful things he's done, whereas he's actually terrible for
Speaker 2: her brand, like he's brought a riches and fame that partnership.
Speaker 2: But it's always meant whenever we write about her or
Speaker 2: have her a Mama Mire for example, when she was
Speaker 2: on No Filter, will have a very large portion of
Speaker 2: the audience. They're probably thinking it and doing it right now,
Speaker 2: who go no, Like, she is not good for women,
Speaker 2: she's not a supporter of women because she's worked with
Speaker 2: that guy. And at what point do you get jack
Speaker 2: of that? And at what point is what was once
Speaker 2: joshing and fun and lucrative for you? Do you actually
Speaker 2: go nah?
Speaker 3: Because that's what was interesting listening to this exchange that
Speaker 3: clearly upset her and he's taking a dig at her
Speaker 3: work ethic and how she's become obsessed with astrology, and
Speaker 3: it's derailing the show. As a listener, you're thinking derailing
Speaker 3: the show?
Speaker 5: Dude?
Speaker 3: Do you know how many times you have had advertisers
Speaker 3: pull out of the show have had us cautioned and
Speaker 3: warned and suspended and got us in massive hot water.
Speaker 3: And she's sat there and.
Speaker 2: She famously have to have a sensor in the room
Speaker 2: saw him.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and think about what they could be talking about
Speaker 4: if they weren't talking about astrology. It's such a missed opportunity.
Speaker 4: But just on the astrology point for a minute. I
Speaker 4: think one of the most relatable parts of this story
Speaker 4: about people earning one hundred million dollars for talking on
Speaker 4: the radio is that every woman goes through a phase
Speaker 4: where she is obsessed with astrology. It happens to all
Speaker 4: of us. I know what happened to me, and it
Speaker 4: typically coincides. I'm not speculating about anything in Jackie's life.
Speaker 4: I'm noticing that anecdotally, it coincides with going through a
Speaker 4: bit of a reckoning in your personal life, a bit
Speaker 4: of a moment where you don't quite know where you're going.
Speaker 4: You might feel a little bit lost, and looking to
Speaker 4: the stars helps you feel a sense of confidence and
Speaker 4: control that you don't otherwise have. I went through a
Speaker 4: phase where I was paying for an app which told
Speaker 4: me what the stars had in store for me that day.
Speaker 3: It is really relatable because when you have that friend
Speaker 3: who's gone down that rabbit hole, it's a sort of
Speaker 3: thing where it's so interesting to them and it's so
Speaker 3: boring to everyone else. Yes, because you don't understand any
Speaker 3: of like a birth chart in your head, you're.
Speaker 1: Like, hey, but that's absolute bullshit.
Speaker 3: It's made up. There's no such thing like you're thinking that.
Speaker 4: Well, remember they came out with that science a couple
Speaker 4: of years ago. It said, we actually are all saying
Speaker 4: that we're the wrong star signed because they've done the
Speaker 4: calculations and it's changed.
Speaker 2: So and if you're earning one hundred million, you could
Speaker 2: probably have an astrologer on Speedaley if you would like. Also,
Speaker 2: Jackie is just turned fifties, turn fifty last year. I mean,
Speaker 2: I know this is maybe a generous take. The woman
Speaker 2: doesn't need the money. Let's be honest. She's been earning
Speaker 2: very very good money for a really long time. And
Speaker 2: I think that if as is being speculated, that a
Speaker 2: lot of what she's put up with in that studio,
Speaker 2: in terms of the just joking from Kyle, does get
Speaker 2: to a point where you're just like, no, Like, there
Speaker 2: have been toxic work relationships in my life over the
Speaker 2: years and in previous jobs where you have a dynamic
Speaker 2: that you're willing to put up with because it's fun
Speaker 2: and it's working, but it can very easy tip over
Speaker 2: into something much more serious, depending on how you're feeling
Speaker 2: about yourself, depending on your position, and if you're fifty one. Also,
Speaker 2: twenty five years is a very long time to work
Speaker 2: with somebody. I wonder it's like a marriage.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it really is. And I wonder the other thing
Speaker 3: I kind of think I heard when I was listening
Speaker 3: to this. Jackie has in terms of her brand, gone
Speaker 3: through a bit of a metamorphosis over the last couple
Speaker 3: of years, coming out about this addiction, that nobody had
Speaker 3: any idea about being incredibly vulnerable, about how she was
Speaker 3: showing up to work and what her life looked like
Speaker 3: at that darkest, darkest moment. And I wonder when Kyle's
Speaker 3: having a dig about her being off with the fairies,
Speaker 3: about her not doing her job, and everyone's talking about her,
Speaker 3: I think it kind of presses on a bruise for her.
Speaker 3: It's not just like a funny haha, a dopey Jackie,
Speaker 3: dopey Jackie. It's actually that is my core vulnerability that
Speaker 3: I've shared with the world and you are pressing on it.
Speaker 2: She also has another business going on right with her
Speaker 2: best friend and manager, Jemma O'Neil, and they have a
Speaker 2: business together called Besties and they do sort of events
Speaker 2: and trips and they bring out speakers to Australia. And
Speaker 2: that's clearly when she started that around the same time
Speaker 2: as the memoir, it all began to feel like next
Speaker 2: acts and stuff. And again, as I sort of said before,
Speaker 2: one of the problems with her being able to move
Speaker 2: into whatever her next act is is He's always an
Speaker 2: albatross there, not in terms of finance and success, but
Speaker 2: in terms of a happy, positive, female focused brand. It
Speaker 2: just is a clash that is not gonna work.
Speaker 3: And in terms of where they are professionally. I have
Speaker 3: always found it a little bit funny that so with
Speaker 3: this new one hundred million dollar contract, they went on
Speaker 3: air in Melbourne and it didn't work.
Speaker 2: Hasn't worked at all.
Speaker 3: Everyone in Melbourne was like, absolutely not. And I just
Speaker 3: think that is the biggest if they're just.
Speaker 4: Ordering their like fancy types of expresso dress and saying
Speaker 4: we don't have time for Trady versus Lady, which he
Speaker 4: told me is a segment on the.
Speaker 3: Show I was explaining to Amelia Trady versus lady, and
Speaker 3: Amelia was like, is that because a trade can't be
Speaker 3: a lady? And I said, yes, man, you've got it.
Speaker 2: Are always very smug about their rejection of Kyle and
Speaker 2: Jackie Hoe, and I think there is something to be
Speaker 2: proud of there. But at the same time, and I
Speaker 2: know this is an unpopular opinion, but the reason that
Speaker 2: they make all that money is because they bring in
Speaker 2: all the advertising. And what that tells you is that
Speaker 2: there is an enormous audience what they do, and maybe
Speaker 2: the audience is fragmenting and changing now and that the
Speaker 2: peak has passed, right. I mean, you could totally see
Speaker 2: a world where Kyle is now podcast king being a
Speaker 2: Joe Rogany type following his mate Kyl. But it's like
Speaker 2: they spoke to a lot of people, a lot of
Speaker 2: a really diverse audience that a lot of media wasn't
Speaker 2: speaking to for a really long time. And whatever you
Speaker 2: think about that, it's impressive.
Speaker 1: In a moment.
Speaker 5: Why TMI is actually a Okay, hello out loud as
Speaker 5: it's Mia and yesterday, what did we talk about on
Speaker 5: our subscriber episode. Well, I'm so glad you asked, because
Speaker 5: Amelia and I did a part two of our conversation
Speaker 5: about c BK and JFK and the story of Well
Speaker 5: the Love Story, which is the show that Ryan Murphy
Speaker 5: made about their doomed relationship. If you're not already a subscriber,
Speaker 5: please follow the link in the show notes to get
Speaker 5: out loud in your ears five days a week and
Speaker 5: you can listen to us right now.
Speaker 4: So oversharing is generally seen as I think we can
Speaker 4: say a bad thing. Think of some of the classic oversharers.
Speaker 4: Prince Harry, in his book Spare talks about his frostbitten penis,
Speaker 4: which he solved with Elizabeth.
Speaker 1: Arden eight hour cream.
Speaker 2: What doesn't it do again?
Speaker 4: Or think about the Norwegian Winter Olympian who at this
Speaker 4: Olympics desperately wanted to tell his girlfriend, who he loves
Speaker 4: very much, that he had recently cheated on her. In
Speaker 4: both these instances, you might ask why is this business?
Speaker 4: But a new book by a Harvard psychologist says that
Speaker 4: we would be wrong. In fact, oversharing is a kind
Speaker 4: of shortcut to intimacy. It's a secret power. It can
Speaker 4: benefit our love lives, our careers, our friendships, and the
Speaker 4: only catch is that we have to be vulnerable. The
Speaker 4: book is called Revealing the Underrated Power of Oversharing by
Speaker 4: Leslie John's.
Speaker 1: So Leslie says that you need.
Speaker 4: To start sharing more in basically all situations. She says
Speaker 4: at work, great dating, definitely people.
Speaker 1: Who are married.
Speaker 4: You have to keep talking about your feelings, which every
Speaker 4: straight man loves to hear. So she has four steps
Speaker 4: for sharing more for very private people. But before I
Speaker 4: get to the four steps, I want to know what
Speaker 4: each of you feel about TMI. Are you oversharers, Claire,
Speaker 4: Let's start with you.
Speaker 3: I think I've become more of an oversharer. Jesse is
Speaker 3: definitely a lot more of an oversharer than I am,
Speaker 3: which is yeah. So I think between the two of us,
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm.
Speaker 2: Not Are we defining oversharing is like really personal stuff
Speaker 2: or sickness?
Speaker 4: It depends on the context, right, Like I think at
Speaker 4: work and Jesse and I know each other primarily through work.
Speaker 4: I would say the bar for what is TMI at
Speaker 4: work is fairly low, meaning that anything to do with
Speaker 4: your toilet habits, perhaps if your stomach is a little
Speaker 4: bit in a difficult spot.
Speaker 1: Right now, you had a fight with your partner.
Speaker 4: I think all of these things maybe not typically what
Speaker 4: you want to be sharing with people at work.
Speaker 3: I've seen Jesse on stage at out Loud show and
Speaker 3: seeing her maybe talking about sex or talking about sex,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, whoa, I never in one million years.
Speaker 1: No sex. I think in general is considered overshare at work.
Speaker 4: I mean you're British, like I assume that overshare for
Speaker 4: you is like how you take your team.
Speaker 2: Yeah, everyone has a different line, don't they. Right, So
Speaker 2: I don't think I'm an oversharer. But because my job
Speaker 2: requires me to talk about myself a fair amount, people
Speaker 2: will often say, oh, I can't believe how open you are,
Speaker 2: and I'll be like, oh, mate, you have no idea.
Speaker 1: Think I don't tell you.
Speaker 2: I find it in a private setting. If I've just
Speaker 2: met somebody and they go straight in with an overshare,
Speaker 2: I know some women love that. I can't say that
Speaker 2: I do.
Speaker 1: So can we talk about me for a little bit?
Speaker 2: Please? Do I think that you're a very private Yes?
Speaker 4: You said this to me in the prep and I
Speaker 4: was fascinated because I think I'm I'm actually a very
Speaker 4: frank person, and in fact that sometimes has got me
Speaker 4: into trouble in my friendships that people perceive me as
Speaker 4: being too frank. But I guess what you meant by
Speaker 4: private is that I don't have social media, and social
Speaker 4: media is a forum where people love to share. Is
Speaker 4: that overshare if it's on social media, maybe almost by
Speaker 4: definition it's not oversharing.
Speaker 2: Well, social media runs on overshareh Let's be honest, and
Speaker 2: again everyone has upset their boundaries about that. But I
Speaker 2: think when I said that about you, because you're right,
Speaker 2: you're a very frank and direct person and generally speaking,
Speaker 2: if I ask you a question, you're going to tell
Speaker 2: me the answer. But your private in that I don't
Speaker 2: think that the average people who would mill around you
Speaker 2: in an office would know very much about where you live,
Speaker 2: what your family's like, because it's just not your thing.
Speaker 2: You're not going around spilling personal details all the time,
Speaker 2: whereas there are people in our office. Yeah, I love
Speaker 2: very much, Yes, but I feel like I know way
Speaker 2: too much about that weekend. Yeah, way too much, which
Speaker 2: is fine.
Speaker 3: Here's the complicated thing and why I find it hard
Speaker 3: to define whether I'm an oversharer. The thing about sharing
Speaker 3: and disclosure in general as like a psychological thing that
Speaker 3: we do is that it should be based on reciprocity.
Speaker 3: So it should be me having a conversation with someone
Speaker 3: and they say, oh, I had horrible postnail depression with
Speaker 3: my child, and like, oh my gosh, how hard is
Speaker 3: it those few months? And that is how you develop
Speaker 3: a relationship, where you go just a little bit deeper,
Speaker 3: a little bit deeper, and you take turns. That has
Speaker 3: changed in twenty twenty six where so much of our
Speaker 3: sharing is one way. Like the weird thing about Harry
Speaker 3: and that Olympian is that there was no reciprocity. It
Speaker 3: was just them. It's just Harry being like, let me
Speaker 3: tell you a.
Speaker 1: Story in person.
Speaker 4: We would then reciprocate to Harry with a story about
Speaker 4: our private parts, and then we'd become closer us.
Speaker 3: And we'd warm up to the penis.
Speaker 2: So I think oversharing is what, as I say, is
Speaker 2: the fuel of social media knowing what's going on in
Speaker 2: people's lives. But it's been there's a sort of snobbery
Speaker 2: about it. And so is this information, this article, this
Speaker 2: idea that we should be less judged.
Speaker 4: Yes, I think that's perfectly put and let me talk
Speaker 4: you through the four steps, because they did get me
Speaker 4: thinking about how I can maybe sprinkle a little bit
Speaker 4: of Team I throughout my life to enrich and deepen
Speaker 4: my relationships. Number One, you're meant to do an audit
Speaker 4: of your daily life and identify those opportunities at which
Speaker 4: you could have shared more. Now I think we all
Speaker 4: have those, right. Maybe you're talking to a colleague you
Speaker 4: don't know that well. They ask you how your weekend was.
Speaker 4: That's a classic decision point where you have to decide
Speaker 4: how much to share. You can either be like, it
Speaker 4: was great, very relaxing, thank you, or you can tell
Speaker 4: them about the stomach bug you had on Saturday night.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a very good example because so if
Speaker 2: I'm trying to build a relationship with someone and I'm
Speaker 2: in kitchen at work and they I say, how is
Speaker 2: your weekend? And they say, I was actually really depressed
Speaker 2: on Saturday. I've broken up with my partner and I
Speaker 2: spent the whole day crying in bed with my cat. Like,
Speaker 2: the problem with that overshare is what I do with it.
Speaker 2: You've given me as you've opened that door, and I
Speaker 2: can't just go, oh, great, see you later. But really
Speaker 2: really can't. So but that person sharing that with me
Speaker 2: tells me that A they really needed to get it
Speaker 2: off their chest, and B they are trying to build
Speaker 2: an intimacy with me.
Speaker 1: It is a bed, it's a bid, it's a.
Speaker 2: Pedal, isn't it. It's like I'm reaching to you. So
Speaker 2: then I have to say, oh, mate, that sounds terrible,
Speaker 2: what happened?
Speaker 4: Or share a struggle in your own weekend, because we've
Speaker 4: all got there. I have to go, oh, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: I've got a problem too.
Speaker 1: So here's step two.
Speaker 4: Consider the cost of not sharing what popped into your
Speaker 4: mind because I think too often. I think the point
Speaker 4: that Leslie is making here is that we too often
Speaker 4: we overthink it and that's why we don't end up oversharing.
Speaker 1: But she's saying, how bad can.
Speaker 4: It be to just open up a little bit more,
Speaker 4: Just be a little bit more open.
Speaker 1: Step three starts more.
Speaker 4: I think perhaps the example you just gave that person
Speaker 4: gave a little.
Speaker 1: Bit too much information to you.
Speaker 4: And then four, which I think is interesting, you do
Speaker 4: have to ask questions. She says that people assume that
Speaker 4: you don't want to pry, but in fact, people want
Speaker 4: to be asked questions and they don't think of them
Speaker 4: as invasive because they're just really to be talking about themselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really interesting. I don't know is this British
Speaker 2: or is this personality or what. But like, I'm quite
Speaker 2: good at keeping other people's secrets. Say, I know that
Speaker 2: something's going on in your life, right, So I know
Speaker 2: that something's going on in your life. That's a bit
Speaker 2: tricky and it's challenging, but you're getting on with your
Speaker 2: you're getting on with work. We don't all want to
Speaker 2: be stopped every two minutes for everyone to go, how
Speaker 2: do your mum or whatever it is? Right, I'm going
Speaker 2: to absolutely respect that, and I'm not really going to
Speaker 2: talk to you about it much. Every now and again,
Speaker 2: I'll give you a little arm squeeze and be like,
Speaker 2: you're right. But that might be seen as cold, but
Speaker 2: I assume that people don't want to talk about it,
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean?
Speaker 4: Well, that's why it's so interesting that the three of
Speaker 4: us are sitting here, because Holly, you come from a
Speaker 4: culture of not oversharing. I have spent many years in
Speaker 4: the US, which I would say errs on the side
Speaker 4: of TMI. One quick story is that when I started
Speaker 4: university in the US, I was meeting my roommates for
Speaker 4: the first time. We were going around in a circle
Speaker 4: saying our name and where we were from. I said,
Speaker 4: I'm Amelia. I'm from Sydney, Australia. Next person next to
Speaker 4: me says, I'm so and so and I have an
Speaker 4: eating disorder. Wow, And I thought, okay, it's great to
Speaker 4: know that on first blush. And it really set me
Speaker 4: up for Americans and how they as a rule operate,
Speaker 4: the rough three hundred million of them. But as a rule,
Speaker 4: particularly when it comes to topics around the body, sex, money,
Speaker 4: I would say that Americans are much more inclined to
Speaker 4: share details. They'll tell you New Yorkers certainly will tell
Speaker 4: you how much money they're paying rent. Can you imagine
Speaker 4: a city side of opening up about that?
Speaker 2: And interesting the.
Speaker 4: Fact that prices are always withheld on houses here I
Speaker 4: find so interesting because it just speaks to this desired
Speaker 4: to be private.
Speaker 2: Would an American ask you how much you earn?
Speaker 4: No, because that intersects with capitalism, and they don't want
Speaker 4: to tell you that because then.
Speaker 1: They might have their own earning powers like diminished.
Speaker 2: In some way. They would ask you how much your
Speaker 2: house costs.
Speaker 1: They would absolutely ask you how much your house costs.
Speaker 4: They expect you to tell them how much an item
Speaker 4: of clothing is if you compliment them on it. So
Speaker 4: we have Claire here to kind of mediate between the
Speaker 4: two of us and to because I do think Australia
Speaker 4: sits somewhere between the UK and the US in terms
Speaker 4: of overshare. What do you think of the topics that
Speaker 4: Australians will not talk about.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think what's weird about Australia is that
Speaker 3: some of those topics we joke about where the undertone
Speaker 3: is kind of oversharing, and Americans don't necessarily share the
Speaker 3: sense of humor.
Speaker 1: Just talk about an example.
Speaker 3: So I joke a lot about like I'll be like
Speaker 3: I'm poor or just yes exactly so, like or I'll
Speaker 3: joke about my family in a self deprecating way, or
Speaker 3: so my now husband and I lived in the West
Speaker 3: three year and he was going to a music college.
Speaker 3: And on his first day he walked in and somebody
Speaker 3: was like, what instrument do you play? And where he's
Speaker 3: like a pay piano and he's like, so, how good
Speaker 3: are you? And where he's like, oh, I I don't know,
Speaker 3: I'm okay, and this guy was just like, if you're okay,
Speaker 3: then why are you here? Like you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Like, it's kind of pretty good.
Speaker 3: I absorbed it for a year. But it's like, I
Speaker 3: think our way of oversharing or showing vulnerability is through
Speaker 3: self deprecations. It's not as frank, right.
Speaker 2: What about the idea. You know, there's a stereotype that
Speaker 2: I think is true to a point that groups of
Speaker 2: women overshare quickly and early to establish trust, yeah, and
Speaker 2: vulnerability and the fact that they are not a threat.
Speaker 2: So you see those memes all the time of like
Speaker 2: women after five minutes, where they like it starts with Hi,
Speaker 2: how are you, And before you know it, it's like
Speaker 2: and then my father left and then I ended up,
Speaker 2: and they're like, that's just her women roll me. It
Speaker 2: is very good at that she was one of the
Speaker 2: reasons why she's great in like a business or a
Speaker 2: social situation. People you don't know. She'll just go up
Speaker 2: to them and be like you look sad, and some
Speaker 2: people really respond to that or whatever the equivalent of
Speaker 2: that is, And before you know it, they're telling you
Speaker 2: what they're at, what medications they're on what they had
Speaker 2: for breakfast, how many times they have sex, whatever. I
Speaker 2: don't like that too early.
Speaker 4: But then how are you making the friendships? Because I
Speaker 4: do think that's a big part of it.
Speaker 2: If I'm a a girl's dinner in commerce and there,
Speaker 2: and I might not know everybody, it takes me a
Speaker 2: while to warm to that. Somebody goes straight in with
Speaker 2: their childhood trauma or their eating disorder to your point
Speaker 2: or whatever and a thing or their relationship messages. I
Speaker 2: always think, why are you telling me that you don't
Speaker 2: know if you can trust me? Maybe that's it, Like
Speaker 2: there's a you know what I mean. I would never
Speaker 2: share in a circle.
Speaker 3: Of people you knew how about it work? Because my
Speaker 3: sense about oversharing in the workplace is that and I
Speaker 3: feel like I've learned the hard way by oversharing. And
Speaker 3: we have a weird workplace where you sort of do
Speaker 3: overshare publicly in the space that you work. And I
Speaker 3: feel like as a leader, when I was editor in
Speaker 3: chief here, I was very I guess vulnerable oversharing about
Speaker 3: my weaknesses, like I would be very self deprecating about
Speaker 3: like I guess it's kind of weird to be running
Speaker 3: a content team and then doing content where you're joking
Speaker 3: about being lazy, and then kind of running a content
Speaker 3: team and also being really transparent about the fact that
Speaker 3: you're bad at confrontation and you're bad at being assertive.
Speaker 4: But by the way, like the lazy girl trope, it
Speaker 4: is a joke because you were the editor in chiefly
Speaker 4: you have written a book. Like I think that's why
Speaker 4: you felt able to make that joke. If we go
Speaker 4: deep and we psychoanalyze it, yes, But.
Speaker 3: I I wondered if people felt like they had more
Speaker 3: license to say things. People would say things to me
Speaker 3: where I was like, oh, I would never say that
Speaker 3: to my boss, but maybe you feel like you can
Speaker 3: say that to me because I've said that about me.
Speaker 2: Well, this is the problem that you set up. So
Speaker 2: let's imagine that you're Anthony Albanesi and you're running a cabinet,
Speaker 2: right and you go and you're like, it's our first
Speaker 2: day and we've all got to make sure we trust
Speaker 2: each other. So you open with like, actually, I don't
Speaker 2: know anything about the economy. I'm not saying that's true,
Speaker 2: but I'm like, so thank god I've got you, you know,
Speaker 2: Chancellor whatever, treasure Chancellor. I'm now in Britain Answer of
Speaker 2: the Exchequer anyway, so thank god that I have got
Speaker 2: my treasurer right. And that does not work. It doesn't work.
Speaker 2: You have to pretend that you have no weaknesses, that
Speaker 2: you know everything. But imagine that. Imagine applying the female
Speaker 2: self deprecation to a really big male coded.
Speaker 1: Job getting up there. I'm a bit of a lazy boy, exactly.
Speaker 2: I've got to go and negotiate with like Trump and stuff,
Speaker 2: but I hate it's going to be super awkward.
Speaker 3: It's like, I'm.
Speaker 2: So an anagram nine. I don't know what my chart's
Speaker 2: saying today, Like it doesn't work, Yeah, gotcha. So, although
Speaker 2: I understand this idea that like good leadership requires some vulnerability,
Speaker 2: Brene Brown's written a hotcture. Her whole career is based
Speaker 2: on that fact, right, is that good leaders do allow
Speaker 2: themselves to be vulnerable. There has to be a point
Speaker 2: at which it's like inside voice album, yeah, yeah, side voice,
Speaker 2: you can add up it's okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And I want to pour one out, especially for people
Speaker 4: who are dating listening to this advice, because I think
Speaker 4: dating is the hardest place to navigate these very complicated
Speaker 4: dynamics around tumiin overshare, because it's the only time in
Speaker 4: your life where you've just kind of expected to meet
Speaker 4: someone who you've never met before, and then start talking
Speaker 4: about your family dynamics and presumably like your romantic history
Speaker 4: and your deepest, darkest fears and aspirations for the future,
Speaker 4: and then guess what, you may be rejected for sharing
Speaker 4: all of that.
Speaker 3: And you won't know what it was that you share,
Speaker 3: no that made you reject.
Speaker 4: And I think the thing that I found most challenging
Speaker 4: about my years of dating was that you have a
Speaker 4: lot of regret about sharing too much. You know that feeling.
Speaker 4: It gets almost like a hangover. In fact, it's often
Speaker 4: coinciding with a hangover. Interestingly, maybe there's a correlation there
Speaker 4: where you feel like you've given too much to this
Speaker 4: stranger and you feel really icky about ability.
Speaker 2: Hangover after the break in the middle of an escalating conflict,
Speaker 2: Why are there so many headlines about influencers stuck in
Speaker 2: Dubai among the influx of news stories about the deeply
Speaker 2: serious escalation of conflict in Iran at the moment and
Speaker 2: the quickie of course, our news podcast will have all
Speaker 2: those developments as they're happening day by day. We kind
Speaker 2: of wanted to look at this almost strange, peculiar phenomena
Speaker 2: of all the stories about the influencers who are stranded
Speaker 2: in Dubai, content creators from all over the world who
Speaker 2: are now wrestling with what to make of bombs falling
Speaker 2: on their previously paradise playground.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 2: I heard this really interesting segment about this on the
Speaker 2: Rest is Entertainment today and hattiped to them for like
Speaker 2: putting some context for me around something that I keep
Speaker 2: seeing all these stories, and I was like, but why
Speaker 2: are there so many influencers in Dubai. I didn't really
Speaker 2: know that world existed to the point that it does,
Speaker 2: and that now those people all have this front seat
Speaker 2: to this unfolding war and they're kind of being asked
Speaker 2: to document it, right when usually they're more look at
Speaker 2: my shoes and my fancy yacht. A little bit of context,
Speaker 2: Dubai is known as the influencer capital of the world.
Speaker 2: I didn't know that, did you guys know that?
Speaker 1: I did not.
Speaker 3: I didn't, But for a long time I've seen beautiful
Speaker 3: people in Dubai and wondered, what's the go with that?
Speaker 2: Well, the go with that as it turns out. And
Speaker 2: obviously I'm not going to get deep into immigration law here,
Speaker 2: but Dbai, I'm sure lots of people know this, and
Speaker 2: I know that we have a lot of listeners in
Speaker 2: that part of the world too, So please excuse my
Speaker 2: simplistic explanation. But obviously do Ubay has a big population
Speaker 2: of people who are not from there. They say that
Speaker 2: about ninety two percent of workers in Dubai are not
Speaker 2: from Dubai. They're from somewhere else. Lots of diversity within that,
Speaker 2: both in terms of nationalities and of the level and
Speaker 2: reward of jobs that those people are doing. Right, on
Speaker 2: the one hand, there have been ongoing lots of significant
Speaker 2: human rights concerns about the conditions for a lot of
Speaker 2: workers in areas like construction who live and work in
Speaker 2: this extreme situation. And on the other it's long been
Speaker 2: a place for white collar so called expats to go
Speaker 2: and work in areas like finance and tourism and increasingly
Speaker 2: things like crypto and tech and all of that kind
Speaker 2: of stuff. So all that's happening, and then in recent
Speaker 2: years Dubai have actively courted influencers and content creators to
Speaker 2: come base themselves out of there, make content about what
Speaker 2: an amazing place it is. They offer these special visas.
Speaker 2: They it's something called a ten year Golden visa, which
Speaker 2: gives you, you know, sort of you can stay there
Speaker 2: and live there. And most of these visas you just
Speaker 2: have to prove that you have a bit of a following,
Speaker 2: you prove what you're going to do, and then you'll
Speaker 2: pay a small fee. But while you're living and working there,
Speaker 2: you pay no income tax. So that's why it becomes
Speaker 2: such an attractive place. And they've set up like working
Speaker 2: hubs specifically for digital content creators that will have podcast
Speaker 2: studios and cameras and all these things, and then people
Speaker 2: will work there and so what might happen? And there
Speaker 2: are some nostronomers in this obviously, but it's a well
Speaker 2: worn path now for sort of say you were on
Speaker 2: Love Island, UK and you come out with a significant following,
Speaker 2: it's an attractive offer to be like, why don't you
Speaker 2: go and base yourself out of Dubai for a year
Speaker 2: or two or you know, six months of the year,
Speaker 2: escape the British winter, make content, don't payny tax banks
Speaker 2: some money go have and is the main role.
Speaker 3: Of those influencers meant to be tourism.
Speaker 2: Well, a lot of it is to promote Dubai in itself.
Speaker 2: They come these visas with a certain see not all
Speaker 2: of course, but some certain sort of rules around. You
Speaker 2: have to present the UA in a positive light. You
Speaker 2: can't criticize the government and that kind of thing. But
Speaker 2: you might be doing private deals with brands out of there,
Speaker 2: or you might be doing tourism stuff. And the tone
Speaker 2: of a lot of this content is I get to
Speaker 2: live this amazing life in and crucially a safe place.
Speaker 2: So for the British influence, there is a very strong
Speaker 2: vibe of this is like I can walk down the
Speaker 2: street wearing my sixty thousand dollars rolex and no one's
Speaker 2: going to mug me for it. Like even while this
Speaker 2: missiles are falling, now there's a massive British content creator
Speaker 2: lives there who's posting like even with bombs falling, Dubai
Speaker 2: is still safeer them walking in London after nine pm,
Speaker 2: Like there's this that's a vibe that happens right anyway. Obviously,
Speaker 2: what has happened as we know, massive instability in the region.
Speaker 2: Missiles are falling and flights are canceled, and now a
Speaker 2: certain number of influencers are obviously documenting that and attracting
Speaker 2: some criticism for doing it. There's an Australian woman called
Speaker 2: Louise Starky, for example, and she's getting some grief for
Speaker 2: posting from her apartment balcony you can see a missile
Speaker 2: falling and she's taken it down. So that's why we're
Speaker 2: not going to play it for you. She says, I'm scared.
Speaker 2: I'm actually so scared, and then she says, it's not
Speaker 2: meant to be happening here. Can't everyone just chill out?
Speaker 2: She got a lot of derision for that, and quite
Speaker 2: a lot of the influence is a copying a fair
Speaker 2: amount of grief for that. What do we think are
Speaker 2: we expecting these content creators to suddenly turn into war correspondence.
Speaker 3: I mean, the idea of it's not meant to be
Speaker 3: happening here, that's been accused of kind of being riddled
Speaker 3: with a lot of entitlement and almost arrogance that it's
Speaker 3: allowed to happen in the country next door, but it
Speaker 3: shouldn't be happening to me. I do think what's interesting
Speaker 3: about the influencer conversation is when the world gets really
Speaker 3: scary and really complex and there is a conflict of
Speaker 3: the proportions of which we know we have no control over.
Speaker 3: I don't have any control over who bombs who, and
Speaker 3: that is sickening. I think sometimes looking at influences is
Speaker 3: the easiest way to prosecute injustice, and so we look
Speaker 3: at somebody like Louise Staky and we're like, well, I
Speaker 3: can't have a conversation with Trump about how maybe he
Speaker 3: should be a bit more careful about starting military action,
Speaker 3: but I can comment on Louise Darky's post and be like,
Speaker 3: this is insensitive and you're a monster.
Speaker 1: That's so interesting. I think that's true.
Speaker 4: I think that why we can't look away from this
Speaker 4: is because the promise that those influences were made was
Speaker 4: that they would be in the Middle East, but they
Speaker 4: actually could have been anywhere. They weren't really in the
Speaker 4: Middle East. They were kind of in this Disneyland version
Speaker 4: in the.
Speaker 1: Desert of the Middle East.
Speaker 4: So one real I saw from one of these influences
Speaker 4: proudly said she was probably saying that after two years
Speaker 4: in Jubai, she didn't know anything about Ramadan and it's
Speaker 4: rituals now nor do I, by the way, But I
Speaker 4: think the issue is that if you've been living for
Speaker 4: two years in the United Arab Emirates, you should probably
Speaker 4: know something about Ramadan.
Speaker 1: But that was part of the appeal. They didn't have
Speaker 1: to know anything.
Speaker 3: But that's interesting because I've spent maybe three days in Dubai.
Speaker 3: I stayed there and I was oblivious and didn't know
Speaker 3: it was Ramadan at the time because it was a
Speaker 3: stopover coming back from Europe. And I knew it was Ramadan,
Speaker 3: like that was in the hotel, that was everywhere. And
Speaker 3: the thing about being there is that, yes, it feels
Speaker 3: like you're in Jess and I both said, it feels
Speaker 3: like a fake world. You go to this.
Speaker 4: In fact, there's a fake world of islands some off
Speaker 4: the coast of Germany.
Speaker 3: I'm made like you go to this shopping center and
Speaker 3: it's the biggest shopping center in the world, and you
Speaker 3: see the Burj Khalifa, which is the tallest building in
Speaker 3: the world, and you're blown away by all of this.
Speaker 3: You're very aware of where you are. I found and
Speaker 3: I remember when we were landing, I was reading Fifty
Speaker 3: Shades of Gray, which you mainked.
Speaker 1: Because it's very appropriate to that destination.
Speaker 3: Well, and the flight attendant tapped me on the shoulder
Speaker 3: and said, you can't read that here. Yeah, so they
Speaker 3: definitely are those kind of I don't know those sign
Speaker 3: posts about where you are there are.
Speaker 4: But at the same time, I just want to say
Speaker 4: that I really feel for all the Australians who are
Speaker 4: in that region right now, because what is happening is
Speaker 4: very unprecedented and shocking to a lot of the countries
Speaker 4: in this region who thought that they were insulated from
Speaker 4: the dynamics of.
Speaker 1: The more hot spot areas.
Speaker 4: So you know, I don't think that anyone could have
Speaker 4: foreseen this future even a week ago. And when I
Speaker 4: saw on Monday that the US State Department had issued
Speaker 4: this warning to all Americans in the Middle East, basically
Speaker 4: the entire Middle East, to leave immediately, my heart sank
Speaker 4: for all these people because it's not going to be
Speaker 4: easy for them to leave either. By the way, this
Speaker 4: Alien government's advice is more modulated than that. It's it's
Speaker 4: on the Defact website and it advises people to register
Speaker 4: with their local consults and embassies and to make plans
Speaker 4: to leave. But nonetheless, lots of flights are canceled hundreds,
Speaker 4: even thousands of flights are canceled. There's no real way out.
Speaker 4: People are trying to plot like overland routes. It is
Speaker 4: a very scary situation that I don't think anyone could
Speaker 4: have predicted.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think that you're right, Claire, that there
Speaker 2: is a certain shaden freud we're seeing in the I've
Speaker 2: seen cartoons of like sort of lots of real housewife
Speaker 2: looking kind of women trying to get on planes and
Speaker 2: they're like, do buy evacuation, and it's very sneery and snobby,
Speaker 2: and it is hard not to look at that very
Speaker 2: pure do buy influencer space where they are sort of
Speaker 2: like I get to live on a yacht and where
Speaker 2: a role like dad without being a bit like oh.
Speaker 2: But as to your point, Amelia, there are so many
Speaker 2: people living there and stuck there who that is not
Speaker 2: the case for them, not that there's a moral value
Speaker 2: about whether or not you should be able to be safe.
Speaker 2: And I just want to tell everybody that if you
Speaker 2: do want to follow an Australian woman who's living in Dubai,
Speaker 2: who I've followed for years actually because I interviewed her
Speaker 2: a long time ago, and she's really amazing. She's called
Speaker 2: Jessica Smith, and she's a former paralympian, a swimmer, and
Speaker 2: she's lived in Dubai for years, and she's got three kids,
Speaker 2: and she's been posting really interesting, sensible, sensitive stuff about
Speaker 2: what it's like there at the minute, about the kind
Speaker 2: of information that Aussies can get about the defact portal
Speaker 2: that's been opened, Amelia and all those things. So that
Speaker 2: kind of information coming out of social media is really
Speaker 2: useful and interesting and gives you a window. It's not all,
Speaker 2: you know, sort of very botox ladies screaming on balconies.
Speaker 4: At the same time, I can see why there's an
Speaker 4: interest in the influences because the holy is your original question.
Speaker 4: You said, do they all have to become citizen war correspondence? No,
Speaker 4: I don't think they do, but in essence they are.
Speaker 4: That is what they are. And I have found it
Speaker 4: really interesting to look at the content that these creators
Speaker 4: are putting out right now to get a sense of
Speaker 4: what it feels like on the ground. It's it's almost
Speaker 4: hard to imagine the scope of.
Speaker 1: It, guys.
Speaker 3: An article in Sydney Morning Herald by Stacy Collino has
Speaker 3: made me feel intense shame and I need some emotional support.
Speaker 3: So it goes through the household items you really need
Speaker 3: to replace, and everyone comes across these articles every few
Speaker 3: months and I don't know, I meant to clean my
Speaker 3: pillow case like once a week or something like. No,
Speaker 3: it's not happening.
Speaker 1: But this was.
Speaker 3: It was divided into like rooms in your house. But
Speaker 3: the section that really struck me was about your kitchen.
Speaker 3: So about sponges. Apparently, perpetually damp sponges are breeding grounds
Speaker 3: for bacteria. Who would have known, and they get to
Speaker 3: really high numbers within three to four days, and you
Speaker 3: can beautiful days. I know.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you said perpetually damp and not moist.
Speaker 3: Perpetually that's what they are. I didn't know this. But
Speaker 3: you can disinfect them by putting them in the microwave
Speaker 3: for thirty seconds.
Speaker 2: Yep, So disclosure in the oversharing department. I've discussed this
Speaker 2: lately about how many pairs of pounds you packed to
Speaker 2: go on holiday, blah blah blah, But how long do
Speaker 2: you reckon a sponge lives on your sink. We're talking
Speaker 2: about the ones with like the brillowpad on top right
Speaker 2: and the yellow underneath.
Speaker 3: It's all based on smell.
Speaker 2: Grossing to admit, but often you'll be at the sink
Speaker 2: and you'll be.
Speaker 3: Like, You'll be like, oh, if it smells like cleaning product,
Speaker 3: it's clean, right, So I reckon two weeks. Oh, it's
Speaker 3: not a long time. It's not really.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's a long time. But if your if your
Speaker 2: sponge is looking pristine, I'm backing it. I merely he's
Speaker 2: not going to share. She's a very proud I know,
Speaker 2: don't think.
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 1: It's probably longer than two weeks.
Speaker 3: Apparently you can also put them through the dishwasher.
Speaker 2: You know, I never think of these, It's just was here.
Speaker 2: She would be like landfill sustainability. Definitely keep reusing your sponges.
Speaker 2: And I am terrible in that. Brent will use it
Speaker 2: and use it, use it till it falls apart. And
Speaker 2: I don't think that man is putting it in the microwave.
Speaker 1: We've talked about Brent cutting the Brent. It's just a depression.
Speaker 2: He will use it until it falls apart. I just
Speaker 2: see them and go and throw them in the bin.
Speaker 2: But now you tell me I can stick them in
Speaker 2: the microwave.
Speaker 3: Absolute hack. You also have to replace mop heads every
Speaker 3: two to three months. Something I find really interesting about
Speaker 3: life is when you buy a thing and then you
Speaker 3: read the instructions for some weird reason and it says
Speaker 3: that you have to replace a certain part, and I'm like,
Speaker 3: who's doing that?
Speaker 1: Sorry? What what's interesting about?
Speaker 3: Like, like, okay, your vacuum cleaner, right, your vacuum cleaner.
Speaker 3: We got a new vacuum cleaner recently. Huge looked at
Speaker 3: the instructions and it's like, oh, there's a part of
Speaker 3: your Oh yeah.
Speaker 4: I get what you're saying. It's like, yeah, I got
Speaker 4: what you're saying. We have I have a water pick,
Speaker 4: you know that that like cleans in between your teeth,
Speaker 4: And apparently I got to clean the water pick.
Speaker 1: But the water picks for cleaning my teeth, that doesn't
Speaker 1: make any sense. And it's always vinegar vinegar.
Speaker 3: Or like baking pals, soda, baking soda, And I'm like,
Speaker 3: who just has that in their cupboard?
Speaker 2: Such domestic I know.
Speaker 3: But also if you're cutting board has lots of cuts
Speaker 3: or scratches, apparently it's time to replace it because those
Speaker 3: indentations harbor bacteria that can make you listen bacteria not now,
Speaker 3: I know, But what I want to know is, like
Speaker 3: I'm picturing myself standing in my kitchen, which is also
Speaker 3: my laund room and the mental load of thinking about
Speaker 3: what's in all those cupboards. Do people keep lists or
Speaker 3: schedules or timelines about like in six months, I have
Speaker 3: to replace that, that mop in this I have to replace. Like,
Speaker 3: I don't know how you know what people do.
Speaker 4: There's a whole type of person who as the kettle
Speaker 4: is boiling, they do all the stuff.
Speaker 1: That's the whole type of person.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so they're like, unload the dishwasher, replaced the sponge
Speaker 4: poppet in the microwave, do some squats, and like then
Speaker 4: the kettle's boiled.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're like so productive.
Speaker 3: I'll just order that part of that.
Speaker 4: It's better than just staring off into middle distance having
Speaker 4: existential fears.
Speaker 3: Right, Oh no doing that. I just stare out the
Speaker 3: window until the kettle tells me it's done.
Speaker 2: It's all economy. I like it. That's all we have
Speaker 2: time for out Louders on this Wednesday. Thank you so
Speaker 2: much to Plus Stevens, Emelia Lester, to our amazing team.
Speaker 2: We'll be back in your ears tomorrow. Actually, Amelia will
Speaker 2: be back in your ears tomorrow with Mia. What are
Speaker 2: you talking about tomorrow?
Speaker 4: Oh, it's a juicy one. Remember last week we talked
Speaker 4: about a letter from Vanessa, an out louder who asked
Speaker 4: for advice on whether she should quit her job to
Speaker 4: support her husband's very demanding job as they raise children.
Speaker 2: That thread and now Louders Facebook, is one of the
Speaker 2: best threads we've ever had.
Speaker 4: I'm just going to say that what Mia says really
Speaker 4: surprised me. I was not expecting it.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's going to be on the subscriber show. A
Speaker 2: massive thanks to our incredible team for helping us put
Speaker 2: the show together and look, Ruth divine our exceptional group EP.
Speaker 2: She tried to get away with us, not knowing it
Speaker 2: was her birthday. Oh but out Louders, I know you
Speaker 2: would want us to make a fuss of her on
Speaker 2: her special day because she's amazing and she keeps us
Speaker 2: all running. So happy birthday, Ruth from us and all
Speaker 2: of the out Louders.
Speaker 3: Have the best day.
Speaker 1: Ah Mamma.
Speaker 2: Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which
Speaker 2: we have recorded this podcast.