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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waders.

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Speaker 2: This podcast was recorded on Hey, I'm Jemma Bath, host

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Speaker 2: of True Crime Conversations, and did you know that the

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Speaker 2: team at Mamma Mia is bringing you over one hundred

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Speaker 2: hours of the best content from your award winning podcasts

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Speaker 2: for the Hot Pod Summer of your Dreams. Well, we

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Speaker 2: are here at two Crime Conversations. We've handpicked some of

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Speaker 2: the most chilling and thought provoking episodes from our feed,

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Speaker 2: including gripping cult stories, powerful interviews with crime victims, and

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Speaker 2: in depth accounts from women who have been incarcerated sharing

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Speaker 2: the journeys that led them to that place. And that's

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Speaker 2: just the beginning. Today, I'm bringing you the story of

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Speaker 2: Tia Levings from No Filter, another amazing podcast on the

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Speaker 2: Muma Mea network hosted by Mia Friedman. In this episode,

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Speaker 2: Mia chats with Tea, who grew up in a strict

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Speaker 2: Christian fundamentalist community. By the time she was nineteen, she

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Speaker 2: found herself in an abusive marriage, with the violence actually

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Speaker 2: being supported by the church. Here's the original episode. Have

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Speaker 2: a listen, and we'd love to hear what you think.

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Speaker 3: I heard a voice in my head, in my mind,

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Speaker 3: in my heart that said run, and he had gone

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Speaker 3: to his office to get his gun. So if I

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Speaker 3: had stayed, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

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Speaker 3: And we drove.

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Speaker 1: Away from Mamma Maya. You're listening to no filter, and

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Speaker 1: I'm mea friedman. When I was a teenage girl, I

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Speaker 1: was kissing boys and dating, and I was hanging with

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Speaker 1: my friends. I was working at Woolly's, and I was

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Speaker 1: desperately trying to get a fake ID so that I

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Speaker 1: could sneak into clubs. Well, the usual teenage behavior, but

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Speaker 1: I was also dreaming about my future, thinking about who

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be when I grew up, what I

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Speaker 1: wanted to do, what adventures I wanted to have out

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Speaker 1: in the world when I left school. When Tiya Levings

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Speaker 1: was a teenage girl, she was preparing to serve a

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Speaker 1: husband that she hadn't even met yet, because Tina was

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Speaker 1: brought up as a Christian fundamentalist, where being a trad

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Speaker 1: wife was the only option for girls, a marriage with strict,

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Speaker 1: old fashioned gender roles where the man was the boss

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Speaker 1: and the woman served him, and that's exactly what she did.

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Speaker 1: Around the time Tia got married in the early two thousands,

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Speaker 1: the whole trad wife lifestyle or that wasn't called that then.

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Speaker 1: It has been glorified on TV around the world by

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Speaker 1: a show called nineteen Kids in Counting. You might remember it.

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Speaker 1: It was about the Dugger family, the parents, Michelle and

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Speaker 1: Jim Bob. They were also Christian fundamentalists, like Tea and

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Speaker 1: the community where she grew up. They wore old fashioned clothes,

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Speaker 1: and they chopped their own wood, and they homeschooled all

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Speaker 1: their children. They had so many children it was kind

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Speaker 1: of fascinating to watch. But what we've since learned is

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Speaker 1: that there were some really dark things going on in

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Speaker 1: that house among the Douggers, and Tea experienced similar things

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Speaker 1: in her own tradwife marriage. She barely escaped from that

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Speaker 1: marriage with her life. She had to grab her children

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Speaker 1: and flee in the middle of the night. Tea's story

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Speaker 1: is a story about survival, indoctrination, fundamentalism, but it's also

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Speaker 1: a story about marketing and how tradwives aren't just a

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Speaker 1: quirky trend on Instagram or a funny reality show. This

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Speaker 1: is why Tea has written a book about her trad

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Speaker 1: life and why she wants you to hear her story

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Speaker 1: as the former trad wife who got away. Tea are welcome.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. You start your.

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Speaker 1: Story in nineteen eighty four when your family moved from

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Speaker 1: Michigan to Florida. Talk to me about your early years

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Speaker 1: in the way that your family changed when you made

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Speaker 1: that move to Florida.

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Speaker 3: When I was ten, we moved to Jacksonville, Florida, and

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Speaker 3: my parents wanted to give us a good childhood, a

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Speaker 3: protected childhood, a happy one. And in Jacksonville, the message

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Speaker 3: was all over the city that the best way to

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Speaker 3: do that was to join the biggest church in town.

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Speaker 3: So it was a Southern Baptist megachurch. I have thirty

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Speaker 3: five hundred members at that time, and then it quickly

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Speaker 3: grew to ten thousand, and then twenty thousand, and by

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Speaker 3: the time I graduated high school, our sanctuary sat over

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Speaker 3: ten thousand people. I was there six days a week.

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Speaker 3: It was a lot of fun. I would not have

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Speaker 3: pointed to a lot of it as being particularly traumatic

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Speaker 3: or problematic. I was being systematically groomed and conditioned to

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Speaker 3: self subjugate and self gaslight and cooperate with an authoritarian model.

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Speaker 3: But I didn't know that. I knew that I was

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Speaker 3: just having this Christian evangelical experience that had a lot

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Speaker 3: of money and privilege attached to it, and I didn't

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Speaker 3: know any different. I talk about this sometimes like a

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Speaker 3: culture within a culture, and it's based on the verse

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Speaker 3: in the Bible that says be in the world, but

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Speaker 3: not of it. And so we really were practicing a

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Speaker 3: parallel Christian culture in the world, but not engaging with

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Speaker 3: the world, not informing our worldviews, not growing and into adults.

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Speaker 3: We were growing to prepare to be Christian wives and life.

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Speaker 3: And that is all. That was my second ten years.

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Speaker 3: I got married at nineteen.

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Speaker 1: You call it a cult without wolves, which is really

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Speaker 1: interesting because by that I assume you may it's hiding

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Speaker 1: in plain side. You talked about it's a megachurch, so

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Speaker 1: it's not just like a fringe few kind of people

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Speaker 1: meeting in a basement. It is like literally tens of

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Speaker 1: thousands of people. What is the IBLP. Is it Gothard

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Speaker 1: or Goddard.

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Speaker 3: Well, Gothard is how we say it, but it's God Guard,

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Speaker 3: which is just so funny to me. Bill Gothard started

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Speaker 3: the Institute of Basic Life Principles the IBLP. For sure,

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Speaker 3: there's a headquarters in Australia, there's a headquarters in America.

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Speaker 3: His model of growth cross denominational lines in that he

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Speaker 3: taught biblical principles, so Christians from churches all over would

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Speaker 3: come and then they would be sent back out to

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Speaker 3: their churches to proselytize within their congregations for this stricter

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Speaker 3: form of Christianity. If you're familiar with the Dugger family

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Speaker 3: on TLC's Nineteen Kids accounting, that's the most visible family

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Speaker 3: of the Gothard system. I was in Shiny Happy People

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Speaker 3: last year and that did a big expose on the

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Speaker 3: IBLP and how it works and how it has gone

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Speaker 3: into because of its agenda, it's gone into every branch

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Speaker 3: of government and the entire evangelical movement. That's why I

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Speaker 3: call it the cult without walls, because we were part

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Speaker 3: of this high control group with very strict criteria that

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Speaker 3: meets all of the cult definition, but it doesn't have

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Speaker 3: a building. And so people identify with cults is like

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Speaker 3: it's a place you go and it's a single person

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Speaker 3: you follow, and that is not how high control religion works.

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Speaker 3: I believe it does meet all of the cult criteria,

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Speaker 3: and if you listen to survivors, you hear from multiple backgrounds,

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Speaker 3: all kinds of different evangelical sex and denominations, with very

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Speaker 3: similar experiences.

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Speaker 1: What's the role of the Douggers in the ibopay and Gothod?

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Speaker 1: You know, as the leader of that church.

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Speaker 3: They were kind of reputation ambassadors. They had some influence

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Speaker 3: in sway, but they were one of star families because

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Speaker 3: of the number of children that they had and their

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Speaker 3: high visibility and their political involvement. But really their role

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Speaker 3: was lifestyle evangelism. So their purpose was to show the

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Speaker 3: world what a great lifestyle this is, so that people

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Speaker 3: will feel attracted to it and choose it. And it

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Speaker 3: worked in a big influential way in America. Plenty of

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Speaker 3: people watched that show just to watch the car accident

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Speaker 3: and the crazies, but plenty more thought it was an

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Speaker 3: enviable way to live. And the trad lifestyle that we

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Speaker 3: find ourselves in today is in large part influenced by

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Speaker 3: fundamentalism on TV.

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Speaker 1: So, while you were preparing for womanhood, talk to me

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Speaker 1: about your teenagees and what influence the IBLP and Gothard

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Speaker 1: had on you.

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Speaker 3: So it was an invisible influence for me in my

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Speaker 3: high school years because I didn't know about him. His

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Speaker 3: people were around me, and I was observing that, and

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Speaker 3: I was learning all their special rules, and I was

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Speaker 3: observing that there was this way in our church to

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Speaker 3: be a special kind of Christian, a holier Christian, somebody

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Speaker 3: who was more devout and more sold out and serious

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Speaker 3: in their faith, and that it had a lifestyle projection

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Speaker 3: in that they wore different clothes, and they had lots

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Speaker 3: of children, and they decided to homeschool their children, and

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Speaker 3: so we had a lot of respect and reverence for them.

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Speaker 3: Not everyone wanted to live that way, but it seemed

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Speaker 3: very much like an option you could take. It wasn't

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Speaker 3: a serious pursuit of mine until I was married and

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Speaker 3: very quickly a young mother, and I was in abuse

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Speaker 3: and I needed to keep my baby quiet at night,

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Speaker 3: and I turned to an older mother in that system

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Speaker 3: to teach me how to help my baby sleep, but

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Speaker 3: also keep the home. It's called keepers of the home.

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Speaker 3: And so I wanted to be a godly Proverbs thirty

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Speaker 3: one woman and be good. You know what I was

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Speaker 3: trying to be, which was just a Christian wife and mother.

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Speaker 1: You talk about in your book that at fourteen, when

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Speaker 1: most young girls are at the mall and shopping and

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Speaker 1: maybe getting on Instagram and posting selfies, your job was

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Speaker 1: to prepare at age fourteen to be a Christian wife

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Speaker 1: and mother within the church. What did that preparation actually

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Speaker 1: look like?

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Speaker 3: Hell, that's a great question, because we weren't actually preparing

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Speaker 3: to be wives. And if they had been teaching us

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Speaker 3: here's what you might practically face as a wife, I

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Speaker 3: might have had some more tools under my belt. Instead,

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Speaker 3: it was looked like a lot of what you don't do,

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Speaker 3: very heavily focused on purity culture and remaining a virgin

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Speaker 3: not tempting men.

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Speaker 1: What's purity culture for someone who's not familiar with purity culture.

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Speaker 3: Purity culture is an entire culture that's built around keeping

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Speaker 3: you sexually pure. So it includes modesty so that you're

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Speaker 3: learning how to dress in a very modest manner that

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Speaker 3: won't tempt men. It also includes your behavior, your speech

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Speaker 3: being modest in all ways. We call it purity culture

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Speaker 3: here because this is the idea that your behavior can

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Speaker 3: make you impure and that you are trying to stay pure.

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Speaker 3: So that you can be an undefiled bride for your husband.

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Speaker 1: I want to ask about modesty because what does modesty

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Speaker 1: actually mean in this context, because for most people, modesty

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Speaker 1: means you don't go around perhaps begniting yourself. You have humility,

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Speaker 1: but that's not what this kind of modesty in religious

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Speaker 1: fundamentalism means. Can you explain what it is?

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Speaker 3: That's the big irony is that modesty, especially in scriptures,

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Speaker 3: has a lot to do with your bearing and behavior.

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Speaker 3: But what it's become an evangelical culture is a hyperfixation

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Speaker 3: on the length of a girl's skirt and whether or

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Speaker 3: not her brastrap is showing or Bill Gothard has a

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Speaker 3: teaching called eye traps. So these are the way clothing

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Speaker 3: is designed to draw your eye to say a slender

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Speaker 3: waistline or cleavage or something that might attract a man's attention,

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Speaker 3: and that is ruled as immodest clothing. Your behavior can

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Speaker 3: be immodest, and that you can be loud or laugh

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Speaker 3: too loud, stand out in any way. You know that

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Speaker 3: can become a thing. But it's all external.

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Speaker 1: Is it about sexuality? Because it's at an age you know,

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Speaker 1: a fourteen year old girl, she's growing breast, she's menstruating,

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Speaker 1: she's suddenly aware that men are looking at her in

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Speaker 1: a different way. She's maybe feeling hormones, she's maybe feeling things.

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Speaker 1: In fact, she no doubt is all of the things.

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Speaker 1: How are you taught to interpret that that all of

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Speaker 1: that was dangerous and that it was sinful, and that

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Speaker 1: it was your job to protect men from the sin

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Speaker 1: of you.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it's completely internalized. The actual scripture says that if

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Speaker 3: a man lusts, he should pluck his eyes out and

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Speaker 3: never mentions what the girl is doing. But we flipped it,

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Speaker 3: the evangelical culture flipped it. It was all focused on

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Speaker 3: first how we were addressing and being, but then eventually

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Speaker 3: our very worth was sinful, distracting, dangerous, tempting. I interpreted

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Speaker 3: the things I was feeling as a sexualized young person,

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Speaker 3: those were my temptations to sin and step out of

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Speaker 3: the will of God. So constantly suppressing any urges or

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Speaker 3: attractions or desires so that I wouldn't feel them. It's

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Speaker 3: very important to not feel them so that you can

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Speaker 3: remain pure. And then it's supposed to magically turn on

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Speaker 3: when you're married, which we know now it doesn't for

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Speaker 3: a lot of women's sexual dysfunction is very, very high

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Speaker 3: because our nervous system does not acclimate that way. That's

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Speaker 3: not how the human body works.

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Speaker 1: Did you have sex before your wedding at nineteen?

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Speaker 3: I had an early sexual assault when I was thirteen

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Speaker 3: that I interpreted as maybe my first kiss. I wasn't

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Speaker 3: really sure. I didn't have anybody to talk to about that,

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Speaker 3: and I had one kiss with a boyfriend otherwise. But no,

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Speaker 3: did not have any real experience before my wedding night.

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Speaker 1: After this, bright tea gets married at nineteen and her

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Speaker 1: life is about to change dramatically, and then she realizes

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Speaker 1: she was in danger really from the first night of

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Speaker 1: that marriage. How did you meet your husband?

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Speaker 3: Yes, So this big mega church I go to, or

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Speaker 3: went to, is Jacksonville support City. So we have a

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Speaker 3: naval port and he was a sailor that came in

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Speaker 3: on a ship and attended our navy ministry. We had

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Speaker 3: this big military ministry to reach the sailors for christ.

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Speaker 3: They come in for you know, community and to meet girls.

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Speaker 3: So that's what happened. I went to a hay ride

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Speaker 3: and he was there, and we met at a mixer

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Speaker 3: near Christmas time, about four weeks later we were engaged.

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Speaker 3: I didn't really know him, but he had decided I

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Speaker 3: was the girl he wanted to marry, and I was

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Speaker 3: in pursuit of a husband at that time. I was

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Speaker 3: very open to this is the only thing I can

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Speaker 3: do with my life is to be a Christian wife

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Speaker 3: and mother, so I need a husband to do that.

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Speaker 3: I was primed and ready to receive whoever said they

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Speaker 3: were God's will for my life.

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Speaker 1: Did having a job or a career ever occur to

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Speaker 1: you or was that ever presented to you as a

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Speaker 1: possibility When you say an agent girl, it's.

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Speaker 3: A grief, you know. I share in the book how

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Speaker 3: I learned to split myself. I had dreams and desires

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Speaker 3: and opportunities and talents, and I had to learn to

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Speaker 3: suppress them and stuff them down. They were not in

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Speaker 3: accordance with what I was being told was the only

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Speaker 3: acceptable outcome for my life, and it was unbearable to

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Speaker 3: feel the loss of them. So I learned to stuff

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Speaker 3: them away. And there was a season where I tried

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Speaker 3: to I wanted to be an artist, and I thought, oh,

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Speaker 3: if I'm an artist for God, I can do it.

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Speaker 3: That's how I'll get through this. And that didn't work

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Speaker 3: because I was chosen for marriage first and it just

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Speaker 3: didn't work.

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Speaker 1: You took about being chosen. Did you want to marry

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Speaker 1: this guy? Was he nice? Did you like him?

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Speaker 3: I didn't really know him. I did not feel attracted

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Speaker 3: to him. I know in hindsight that if we had

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Speaker 3: given it natural time to unfold, he would have shown

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Speaker 3: his true character. He had behavior tendencies that were masked,

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Speaker 3: carefully masked under charm, and that charm would have fallen

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Speaker 3: away if we had given it more time, which he knew,

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Speaker 3: and that's why he needed to secure me so quickly.

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Speaker 3: So I was locked in very quickly and did not

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Speaker 3: feel like I really had a choice by that point.

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Speaker 3: You don't believe you can say no to a man

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Speaker 3: or to God, and they are one and the same.

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Speaker 1: So when he decided that he wanted to marry you,

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Speaker 1: was it on an option to say no? Or you

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Speaker 1: were like, yeah, I need a husband? Like why not?

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Speaker 3: It's a great question, because I just feel for a

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Speaker 3: little nineteen year old me, who yeah, really didn't spend

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Speaker 3: that much time thinking that. I think I project onto

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Speaker 3: her that she wanted to say no, but I think

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Speaker 3: that she actually didn't spend that much time deliberating. She'd

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Speaker 3: been taught that you were going to say yes, and

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Speaker 3: that's how you're going to know it's right. If you're asked,

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Speaker 3: then you know it's right. And I was very practiced

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Speaker 3: at shutting down my signals, my arguments, any resistance I had,

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Speaker 3: and I instead funneled that energy into talking myself into it.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about your wedding day. Did you like it?

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Speaker 3: It's magical. I did love it. My parents went all out.

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Speaker 3: My mom's a seamstress. She's spent so many hours on

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Speaker 3: my dresses and my bridesmaid's dresses. And we had a

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Speaker 3: very traditional wedding, and it was near Christmas time the

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Speaker 3: following year, and so it was just I took advantage

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Speaker 3: of the whole season feeling festive, and we had a

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Speaker 3: horse drawn carriage, and I had a cape and it

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Speaker 3: was romantic and candlelight and really beautiful. I mean, it

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Speaker 3: was not smooth and without issue, but I was overwhelmingly

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Speaker 3: really happy, and I felt like I was celebrating this

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Speaker 3: launch into the rest of my life.

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Speaker 1: You say you had a very traditional wedding. Before you

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Speaker 1: walk down the aisle, your dad was like, are you ready?

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Speaker 1: And you said, I can't see.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, my veil was heavy chiffon. I wanted it to

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Speaker 3: drape differently than the bridal tool. Bridle tool is very puffy,

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Speaker 3: and I wanted a romantic drape, so I picked this fabric.

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Speaker 3: It looked gorgeous and photos and it looked gorgeous by day,

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Speaker 3: but we were standing in candlelight, and so when we

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Speaker 3: flipped it over my head, I couldn't see anything. It

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Speaker 3: was a shrouded woman and I had to walk the aisle.

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Speaker 1: Blind, which was very simple, wasn't it it.

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Speaker 3: We ended up being quite metaphorical. Yes, your wedding night.

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Speaker 1: What did you know going into it about what was

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Speaker 1: going to happen on your wedding night?

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Speaker 3: I knew that we would have sex. I did not

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Speaker 3: fully understand what sex was. I knew there would be

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Speaker 3: insertion of anatomy and that it would hurt, but that

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Speaker 3: it would be romantic and loving and God designed, and

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Speaker 3: so it would be okay that I would be held in,

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Speaker 3: caressed and cared for. We had a book by ed Wheat.

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Speaker 3: It was called Intended for Pleasure. And then also like

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Speaker 3: this is what they tell young fiances. We had been

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Speaker 3: in an engaged class and had premarital counseling through the church,

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Speaker 3: and so there was no real sex education or instruction

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Speaker 3: or transparency. But they did, you know, set us up.

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Speaker 3: We also read Elizabeth Elliott's Passion and Purity, which talks

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Speaker 3: a lot about remaining pure until your wedding night so

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Speaker 3: that you can give yourself as a spotless woman to

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Speaker 3: your husband, and you will be rewarded with great pleasure

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Speaker 3: and married passion, and it will be beautiful and procreative

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Speaker 3: and song of solemn and love of joy. That's a

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Speaker 3: book in the Bible that talks about sexual pleasure.

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Speaker 1: Sounds awesome. Is that how it went down?

344
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Speaker 3: Just that's not how it went down. What actually happened

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Speaker 3: is that I had three sexual assaults on my wedding

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Speaker 3: night and no language to describe that or a way

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Speaker 3: to ask for help or explain. And a week later

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Speaker 3: I ended up with a raging infection and a doctor

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Speaker 3: who shed light on the fact that there had been

350
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Speaker 3: battery involved and violence. But I really did not understand

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Speaker 3: what happened on my wedding night until a good fourteen

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Speaker 3: years later, when I was finally given language for marital

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Speaker 3: rape and what consent means.

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry that that happened to you. It's shocking,

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Speaker 1: and when you talk about it in the book, it

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Speaker 1: is so shocking. I don't want to make you relive it.

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Speaker 1: But was there a part of you that thought, oh,

358
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Speaker 1: this doesn't seem right. It sounds like maybe there there

359
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Speaker 1: was no consent because you were his property. Well, consent

360
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Speaker 1: wasn't something you even knew about, was it.

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Speaker 3: Not at all? That is not a word I knew

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Speaker 3: until I was out of this marriage. Part of that

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Speaker 3: is just culturally, we didn't have very much of a

364
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Speaker 3: conversation around consent. The therapeutic language that we have available

365
00:19:24,702 --> 00:19:28,102
Speaker 3: to us today has evolved because survivors and because of

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Speaker 3: researchers and therapists. At this point we're in nineteen ninety six.

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Speaker 3: In the story, I did not have that.

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Speaker 1: What does the term quiverfull mean? Oh?

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Speaker 3: Okay? So this is based on a verse in the Bible.

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Speaker 3: It's relating children to weapons, and if you're going into war,

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Speaker 3: you want lots of weapons. So the verse says weapons

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Speaker 3: in the hand of a warrior are children unto the lord.

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Speaker 3: Happy is the man that has his quiver full of them?

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Speaker 3: And so that is metaphor that child is an arrow,

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Speaker 3: and you want a quiver full of arrows for your

376
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Speaker 3: culture war against the West and against secularism and democracy,

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Speaker 3: everything that the Christian nationalists and the dominionists are against

378
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Speaker 3: in the Bible. Of course, this was the Psalmist, so

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Speaker 3: there was an actual war that they were talking about

380
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Speaker 3: with the weaponry that they had available in Bible times.

381
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Speaker 3: The quiverful mindset in the evangelical movement was promoted through

382
00:20:19,742 --> 00:20:22,822
Speaker 3: Bill Gothard's institute. He did not author that this is

383
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Speaker 3: just what they latched onto because dominionism is their underlying theology.

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Speaker 3: They want to dominate the world's government through population, so

385
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Speaker 3: they want to have as many babies as possible without stop.

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Speaker 1: Which was turned into such a kind of a funny,

387
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Speaker 1: quirky joke on fifteen in counting or sixteen on counting

388
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Speaker 1: with Great Douggers. But from what you say, there's something

389
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Speaker 1: a lot more insidious about it. It's literally repopulating the

390
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Speaker 1: world with a particular type of fundamental religious belief.

391
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Speaker 3: They want white Christian babies. They want to dominate elections

392
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Speaker 3: and population with an ideology that is not pro democracy.

393
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Speaker 3: It is not equality or freedom. It ejectifies children because

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Speaker 3: it reduces them to a number, and there's a host

395
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Speaker 3: of lifestyle accommodations that come with that kind of backwardness

396
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Speaker 3: that modern society would ordinarily reject.

397
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Speaker 1: You were careful to say in your book that your

398
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Speaker 1: world was not fringe. It was very mainstream, and that's

399
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Speaker 1: how it thrives. Can you tell me more about that?

400
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Speaker 3: Yeah, And the Duggers again are going to serve as

401
00:21:33,702 --> 00:21:36,702
Speaker 3: a really good example. This is a lifestyle. When we

402
00:21:36,742 --> 00:21:38,542
Speaker 3: talk about it, the tendency is to say that it

403
00:21:38,582 --> 00:21:41,662
Speaker 3: was fringe and extreme, except TLC put it on TV

404
00:21:41,742 --> 00:21:45,062
Speaker 3: and it had many years of seasons and lots of

405
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Speaker 3: money and millions of viewers. They promote themselves as a

406
00:21:50,262 --> 00:21:53,902
Speaker 3: innocence and a wholesome aesthetic. That's very appealing and attractive,

407
00:21:53,942 --> 00:21:57,022
Speaker 3: because who doesn't love rows and rows of beautiful, obedient

408
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Speaker 3: children and sweet babies. And the women involved want motherhood.

409
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Speaker 3: I always say, fundamentalism exploits the thing you wanted for yourself.

410
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Speaker 3: I wanted motherhood. The mothers I knew all wanted motherhood,

411
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Speaker 3: and it's the very vehicle that they are reduced by

412
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Speaker 3: until sometimes the point of death.

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Speaker 1: You say sometimes until the point of death, do you

414
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Speaker 1: mean that they are encouraged to keep having pregnancies. Because

415
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Speaker 1: I've thought this for a long time actually about Michelle

416
00:22:21,782 --> 00:22:24,742
Speaker 1: duggerh I'm like, it's not safe. She'd had cesareans, she'd

417
00:22:24,782 --> 00:22:27,982
Speaker 1: had complications, she was still trying to get pregnant and

418
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Speaker 1: pregnant and have more and more and more babies. Are

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Speaker 1: women really just seen as baby factories? Essentially? Is that

420
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Speaker 1: the role of women within this system.

421
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Speaker 3: Women are seen as breeding cows, and they're interchangeable, and

422
00:22:39,342 --> 00:22:44,222
Speaker 3: they die from things like ongoing uterine issues, prolapsed uteruses,

423
00:22:44,422 --> 00:22:49,142
Speaker 3: early cancer diagnosis, exhaustion, depression, lack of resources, and then

424
00:22:49,142 --> 00:22:51,982
Speaker 3: they're replaced with a younger model who will continue having babies.

425
00:22:52,102 --> 00:22:54,782
Speaker 3: That happened again and again. We would see a mother

426
00:22:55,822 --> 00:23:01,862
Speaker 3: die in her thirties early forties from essentially exhaustion related causes,

427
00:23:02,422 --> 00:23:04,742
Speaker 3: and then replaced it with a younger a younger woman,

428
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Speaker 3: and she'd continue having babies for that man.

429
00:23:07,302 --> 00:23:10,382
Speaker 1: It's interesting what you say about Also, you've written about

430
00:23:10,542 --> 00:23:14,942
Speaker 1: how the wives have to talk in a very quiet voice.

431
00:23:14,982 --> 00:23:17,382
Speaker 1: I mean, anyone who's heard Michelle Dugger and watch that

432
00:23:17,502 --> 00:23:23,142
Speaker 1: TV show, It is so unthreatening and soft, and you

433
00:23:23,262 --> 00:23:27,342
Speaker 1: write it's on purpose, like the trained childlike voice. Fundy women.

434
00:23:27,502 --> 00:23:30,902
Speaker 1: Fundamentalist women are trained to adore their men by offering

435
00:23:30,942 --> 00:23:33,542
Speaker 1: their rapt attention, even if he's an idiot, even if

436
00:23:33,542 --> 00:23:35,822
Speaker 1: he's not saying much at all, even if you have

437
00:23:35,902 --> 00:23:38,862
Speaker 1: an intelligent point to make. He's your head, he's a

438
00:23:38,902 --> 00:23:42,582
Speaker 1: conduit of Jesus. He's amazing, and of course you're also

439
00:23:42,662 --> 00:23:45,622
Speaker 1: his consumable resource. So don't be surprised if he's up

440
00:23:45,622 --> 00:23:48,422
Speaker 1: in your business, undresses you with his eyes, wants to

441
00:23:48,462 --> 00:23:52,382
Speaker 1: devour you, invades your space. Is that what your life

442
00:23:52,422 --> 00:23:54,382
Speaker 1: was like? How did that play out well?

443
00:23:54,422 --> 00:23:56,302
Speaker 3: In my case? I don't know if we can say

444
00:23:56,342 --> 00:24:00,382
Speaker 3: fortunate or not. My husband really hated physical contact and sex,

445
00:24:00,542 --> 00:24:03,942
Speaker 3: so in my particular case, he was not in my

446
00:24:04,062 --> 00:24:06,622
Speaker 3: business very often. And it's a miracle that I had

447
00:24:06,622 --> 00:24:07,822
Speaker 3: the number of pregnancies that.

448
00:24:07,782 --> 00:24:09,822
Speaker 1: I had, because when you say in your business, to

449
00:24:09,862 --> 00:24:14,822
Speaker 1: be clear, you mean sexual assault and rape by husbands

450
00:24:14,902 --> 00:24:15,982
Speaker 1: of their wives.

451
00:24:16,262 --> 00:24:19,142
Speaker 3: Right I did. I feel entitled to women's bodies, And

452
00:24:19,142 --> 00:24:23,102
Speaker 3: they're raised from childhood to believe that most cases, most

453
00:24:23,142 --> 00:24:26,502
Speaker 3: of the survivors I talked to, frequent assault is just

454
00:24:26,582 --> 00:24:28,982
Speaker 3: the norm, and they don't know any different, and they

455
00:24:28,982 --> 00:24:31,542
Speaker 3: don't even know to call it that. Again, not vocabulary

456
00:24:31,622 --> 00:24:34,022
Speaker 3: available to us. It would never dawn on us to

457
00:24:34,062 --> 00:24:35,622
Speaker 3: say no because we haven't been able to say no

458
00:24:35,702 --> 00:24:39,502
Speaker 3: about anything else, and they've never heard something like if

459
00:24:39,542 --> 00:24:41,582
Speaker 3: you can't say no, then you're not free to say yes.

460
00:24:42,262 --> 00:24:45,502
Speaker 3: It's just they got married. Their marriage was consent, period.

461
00:24:45,702 --> 00:24:46,422
Speaker 3: That's the world.

462
00:24:46,742 --> 00:24:48,982
Speaker 1: Did you ever step out of line? Did you raise

463
00:24:49,022 --> 00:24:50,902
Speaker 1: your voice talk to him in a way that wasn't

464
00:24:50,902 --> 00:24:55,862
Speaker 1: adoring and approving, Because these women are also humans, So

465
00:24:56,342 --> 00:24:57,262
Speaker 1: did that ever happen to you?

466
00:24:57,662 --> 00:25:00,022
Speaker 3: This is part of my self preservation. Yes, it happened

467
00:25:00,062 --> 00:25:02,542
Speaker 3: to me. My parents Actually, you know, they're just they

468
00:25:02,662 --> 00:25:05,502
Speaker 3: just took us to church. They weren't high control people themselves.

469
00:25:06,022 --> 00:25:09,342
Speaker 3: I was a spirited child. I was raised to run

470
00:25:09,382 --> 00:25:11,902
Speaker 3: and play and explore and do things like that, so

471
00:25:12,382 --> 00:25:15,622
Speaker 3: being married to this did not come naturally to me.

472
00:25:15,782 --> 00:25:19,462
Speaker 3: I was constantly at war with my expression, and I

473
00:25:19,542 --> 00:25:21,942
Speaker 3: was also getting in trouble for things that weren't really wrong.

474
00:25:22,622 --> 00:25:25,302
Speaker 3: So I was always trying to suss out where the

475
00:25:25,342 --> 00:25:28,942
Speaker 3: line was, What is small enough for you? Because sometimes

476
00:25:28,982 --> 00:25:32,382
Speaker 3: just my breathing could make him angry, or an expression

477
00:25:32,422 --> 00:25:34,622
Speaker 3: and opinion at the table. You know, you're not supposed

478
00:25:34,622 --> 00:25:37,462
Speaker 3: to have an opinion, But I'm somebody who is a lot.

479
00:25:37,582 --> 00:25:39,102
Speaker 3: I am a lot of person. I am a lot

480
00:25:39,142 --> 00:25:42,662
Speaker 3: of expression, and I have ideas and dreams and thoughts

481
00:25:43,022 --> 00:25:45,902
Speaker 3: and opinions. And I was also the more mentally capable

482
00:25:46,182 --> 00:25:49,262
Speaker 3: parent for my children. So a lot of times I

483
00:25:49,262 --> 00:25:51,422
Speaker 3: didn't agree with what was going on, and I would

484
00:25:51,542 --> 00:25:54,982
Speaker 3: push back for their sake, to be protective, and that

485
00:25:55,142 --> 00:25:58,302
Speaker 3: usually would get me in some serious trouble in consequences.

486
00:25:58,382 --> 00:26:01,262
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think that was descriptive of most of

487
00:26:01,302 --> 00:26:04,342
Speaker 3: my years with him, that there's a stance happening between us.

488
00:26:04,782 --> 00:26:07,622
Speaker 1: How soar enough to your wedding night, did you have

489
00:26:07,662 --> 00:26:08,502
Speaker 1: your first child?

490
00:26:08,982 --> 00:26:11,942
Speaker 3: I had a miscarriage three after our wedding, and then

491
00:26:12,142 --> 00:26:14,982
Speaker 3: I had my first baby. I was pregnant three months

492
00:26:15,022 --> 00:26:17,462
Speaker 3: after that, six months after the wedding, so he was

493
00:26:17,462 --> 00:26:18,262
Speaker 3: born the next year.

494
00:26:18,742 --> 00:26:21,222
Speaker 1: How did having a baby and becoming a mother, which

495
00:26:21,302 --> 00:26:26,222
Speaker 1: was clearly your job description and your purpose, how did

496
00:26:26,262 --> 00:26:28,382
Speaker 1: that change the dynamic within your family and how did

497
00:26:28,422 --> 00:26:29,662
Speaker 1: it change your life?

498
00:26:30,142 --> 00:26:33,942
Speaker 3: It was also my dream, and so again I split

499
00:26:34,022 --> 00:26:36,782
Speaker 3: in this way because I loved being a mom and

500
00:26:36,822 --> 00:26:40,022
Speaker 3: I loved having my babies, and I wanted every single

501
00:26:40,022 --> 00:26:43,662
Speaker 3: one of them, and it was always attention within me

502
00:26:43,782 --> 00:26:46,422
Speaker 3: because I just because I wanted them doesn't mean I

503
00:26:46,462 --> 00:26:48,742
Speaker 3: wanted one a year. I wanted to give my body

504
00:26:48,742 --> 00:26:51,302
Speaker 3: a break. I wanted to give us, as a newlywed

505
00:26:51,342 --> 00:26:54,502
Speaker 3: couple that was struggling some time in space to find

506
00:26:54,542 --> 00:26:58,862
Speaker 3: our feet. I thought I had sound arguments for using contraception,

507
00:26:58,982 --> 00:27:02,502
Speaker 3: and I did use contraception on the sly, even though

508
00:27:02,502 --> 00:27:06,022
Speaker 3: I was heavily trained not to. I was really trying

509
00:27:06,222 --> 00:27:09,182
Speaker 3: for our health to not do that. And it also

510
00:27:09,302 --> 00:27:12,342
Speaker 3: just really uped the state because now there's a child involved,

511
00:27:12,382 --> 00:27:15,622
Speaker 3: and then children involved, and it's not just me anymore

512
00:27:15,622 --> 00:27:18,382
Speaker 3: that's going to pay the consequences. And I so badly

513
00:27:18,382 --> 00:27:20,342
Speaker 3: wanted to give my children a happy childhood in a

514
00:27:20,342 --> 00:27:23,622
Speaker 3: secure home. So it just made me dig in harder.

515
00:27:23,782 --> 00:27:23,942
Speaker 1: You know.

516
00:27:23,942 --> 00:27:25,822
Speaker 3: It didn't have any way out, so there was not

517
00:27:25,862 --> 00:27:29,582
Speaker 3: a lot of time spent dreaming of escape. I dreamt

518
00:27:29,622 --> 00:27:31,702
Speaker 3: of salvation. I wanted someone to come save me and

519
00:27:31,742 --> 00:27:33,902
Speaker 3: make it better, but I didn't dream of escaping because

520
00:27:33,942 --> 00:27:37,422
Speaker 3: divorce is absolutely forbid, and they would probably rather you

521
00:27:37,462 --> 00:27:41,222
Speaker 3: commit suicide than divorce. But of course they don't say that,

522
00:27:41,342 --> 00:27:43,422
Speaker 3: but in general, if you die, it's a little bit

523
00:27:43,502 --> 00:27:45,982
Speaker 3: nicer than if you get a divorce in that circle.

524
00:27:46,062 --> 00:27:48,542
Speaker 3: So I didn't want to do either. I didn't want

525
00:27:48,582 --> 00:27:51,062
Speaker 3: to die and I didn't have access to a divorce.

526
00:27:51,182 --> 00:27:54,622
Speaker 1: Because women in the church was so consumed and are

527
00:27:54,662 --> 00:27:57,182
Speaker 1: the ones that are still there of course looking after

528
00:27:57,862 --> 00:28:00,662
Speaker 1: you know up to a dozen children, sometimes more, but

529
00:28:00,742 --> 00:28:03,942
Speaker 1: many children very close together, which puts an enormous amount

530
00:28:03,942 --> 00:28:06,982
Speaker 1: of pressure. And often these women are very very young

531
00:28:07,302 --> 00:28:10,942
Speaker 1: when they become mothers. What did the church and the

532
00:28:10,982 --> 00:28:14,582
Speaker 1: ibl pay tell you about motherhood and parenting? There was

533
00:28:14,622 --> 00:28:18,382
Speaker 1: a list of things that you could skip. Wasn't there?

534
00:28:18,502 --> 00:28:20,782
Speaker 1: How did that work? And what was on that list?

535
00:28:20,982 --> 00:28:23,702
Speaker 3: So in my work today, I have a list. I

536
00:28:23,742 --> 00:28:26,822
Speaker 3: started compiling that list, and I call the series things

537
00:28:26,862 --> 00:28:29,782
Speaker 3: my Gothared fundamentors said I could skip to have a

538
00:28:29,862 --> 00:28:33,702
Speaker 3: quiver full, because there was a whole long list of

539
00:28:33,822 --> 00:28:36,262
Speaker 3: ordinary things that I took for granted that were part

540
00:28:36,262 --> 00:28:38,982
Speaker 3: of child rearing that they just didn't do so that

541
00:28:39,022 --> 00:28:41,342
Speaker 3: they could have more babies. If you did that thing

542
00:28:41,382 --> 00:28:43,782
Speaker 3: and it interfered with your decision to have more children,

543
00:28:43,862 --> 00:28:45,342
Speaker 3: then you stopped doing that thing.

544
00:28:45,662 --> 00:28:46,542
Speaker 1: Can you read that list.

545
00:28:46,542 --> 00:28:49,702
Speaker 3: To me, these were forbidden, And I just warn you

546
00:28:49,742 --> 00:28:57,742
Speaker 3: the list is jow dropping well, child visits and pediatricians, academics, haircuts, shopping,

547
00:28:58,222 --> 00:29:06,702
Speaker 3: play dates, socialization, extended family gatherings, birth control, rest, mom friends,

548
00:29:07,542 --> 00:29:14,342
Speaker 3: a second income, the entire concert of being a teenager, toys, snacks,

549
00:29:15,342 --> 00:29:24,942
Speaker 3: education for girls, gynecological visits, consent, sleepless nights, privacy, the dentists,

550
00:29:25,462 --> 00:29:34,342
Speaker 3: separate bedrooms, baby food, pants, voting, therapy, art, and debt.

551
00:29:34,902 --> 00:29:37,022
Speaker 1: What do all of those things have in common?

552
00:29:37,662 --> 00:29:39,662
Speaker 3: Oh, they have many things in common. One of the

553
00:29:39,742 --> 00:29:42,022
Speaker 3: largest is mandatory reporters, So.

554
00:29:41,982 --> 00:29:45,822
Speaker 1: To keep you away from anyone who could alert authorities

555
00:29:45,862 --> 00:29:46,782
Speaker 1: to what was going.

556
00:29:46,582 --> 00:29:51,542
Speaker 3: On exactly, agency and ideas that you might have options.

557
00:29:51,702 --> 00:29:53,982
Speaker 3: That's a big piece of the why you would not

558
00:29:54,182 --> 00:29:57,102
Speaker 3: have academics in your homeschool. We weren't allowed to go

559
00:29:57,182 --> 00:30:00,662
Speaker 3: to library. We weren't allowed to educate our daughters, you know,

560
00:30:00,702 --> 00:30:02,582
Speaker 3: because why do they need college. They're going to be

561
00:30:02,622 --> 00:30:05,502
Speaker 3: just wifes and mothers. So their education really stops around

562
00:30:05,982 --> 00:30:08,742
Speaker 3: sixth seventh grade and then they become just little mothers

563
00:30:08,822 --> 00:30:11,582
Speaker 3: paramothers to prepare to be a wife and mother. And

564
00:30:11,622 --> 00:30:13,902
Speaker 3: then there's skilled at being keepers of the home. We

565
00:30:13,942 --> 00:30:17,222
Speaker 3: don't want our daughters knowing consent. We don't want our

566
00:30:17,262 --> 00:30:19,462
Speaker 3: boys to feel like they need to ask for consent.

567
00:30:20,262 --> 00:30:25,702
Speaker 3: The list all has a very subtle sales process. I

568
00:30:25,742 --> 00:30:28,582
Speaker 3: was like, shouldn't I take my child to the pediatrician?

569
00:30:28,702 --> 00:30:32,342
Speaker 3: I should get them they're vaccines. No, you don't need

570
00:30:32,422 --> 00:30:34,222
Speaker 3: to do vaccines, and you don't need to do well

571
00:30:34,302 --> 00:30:37,782
Speaker 3: child visits because the pediatrician will pressure you to use

572
00:30:37,822 --> 00:30:41,142
Speaker 3: western medicine, and we don't use that. We don't use doctors.

573
00:30:41,502 --> 00:30:43,182
Speaker 1: You don't use doctors.

574
00:30:43,142 --> 00:30:44,542
Speaker 3: Only in case of emergency.

575
00:30:45,662 --> 00:30:48,582
Speaker 4: After this shortbreak, how one of the greatest losses of

576
00:30:48,622 --> 00:30:52,302
Speaker 4: Tea's life was also her greatest gift and ultimately the

577
00:30:52,382 --> 00:31:02,542
Speaker 4: cay to her freedom.

578
00:31:03,382 --> 00:31:06,502
Speaker 1: You had four children very quickly. You actually had five

579
00:31:06,582 --> 00:31:09,822
Speaker 1: children very quickly, but one of your daughters, Clara, died

580
00:31:09,822 --> 00:31:13,262
Speaker 1: at nine and nine half weeks old. Yes, I'm so

581
00:31:13,382 --> 00:31:15,622
Speaker 1: sorry for the loss of Clara. That must have been

582
00:31:15,662 --> 00:31:22,302
Speaker 1: impossibly difficult. How did that thrust you into the world

583
00:31:22,302 --> 00:31:26,382
Speaker 1: outside the church just because of hospitals and doctors. She

584
00:31:26,502 --> 00:31:28,422
Speaker 1: was born with a heart condition, wasn't she.

585
00:31:28,662 --> 00:31:32,022
Speaker 3: Yes, hypoplastic left heart syndrome, which is where just half

586
00:31:32,062 --> 00:31:35,742
Speaker 3: of the heart develops. After she was born, we traveled

587
00:31:35,742 --> 00:31:37,822
Speaker 3: out of state to have surgery, and so I was

588
00:31:37,902 --> 00:31:41,622
Speaker 3: immediately immersed into a world where women could be doctors,

589
00:31:41,662 --> 00:31:45,062
Speaker 3: women had jobs, women used childcare. I was alone and

590
00:31:45,102 --> 00:31:47,582
Speaker 3: apart from my husband, I was apart from my babies

591
00:31:47,662 --> 00:31:50,702
Speaker 3: and my mentors. We were in a completely different environment

592
00:31:50,862 --> 00:31:54,222
Speaker 3: and believed that we were on the way to wellness.

593
00:31:54,262 --> 00:31:56,782
Speaker 3: You know. It was definitely with that mindset that we

594
00:31:56,782 --> 00:31:58,982
Speaker 3: were going to get better and go home. And I

595
00:31:59,022 --> 00:32:01,182
Speaker 3: include her story in the book the way that I

596
00:32:01,302 --> 00:32:06,662
Speaker 3: do because the entire experience of Clara absolutely broke me open.

597
00:32:06,982 --> 00:32:10,022
Speaker 3: It broke the spell of mind control. I had never

598
00:32:10,062 --> 00:32:13,182
Speaker 3: lost anyone before I lost my daughter, so it was

599
00:32:13,262 --> 00:32:16,102
Speaker 3: just jarring and shocking all by itself, all for the

600
00:32:16,142 --> 00:32:18,582
Speaker 3: reasons that anyone can imagine and when you lose a child.

601
00:32:19,142 --> 00:32:22,862
Speaker 3: But the experience was so complex and it was impossible

602
00:32:22,902 --> 00:32:25,942
Speaker 3: to box myself back up after. I could not be

603
00:32:25,982 --> 00:32:28,862
Speaker 3: the person I had been, and there was a great

604
00:32:28,902 --> 00:32:31,182
Speaker 3: demand on me to become that again when I got

605
00:32:31,182 --> 00:32:32,942
Speaker 3: back home. There was so much pressure on me to

606
00:32:33,022 --> 00:32:36,142
Speaker 3: not grieve too long, you know, don't make people uncomfortable

607
00:32:36,182 --> 00:32:39,022
Speaker 3: with your grief, get back to business quickly, have another child,

608
00:32:39,622 --> 00:32:42,502
Speaker 3: give God all the glory. And I just couldn't box

609
00:32:42,582 --> 00:32:45,182
Speaker 3: myself into that anymore, as she made that impossible.

610
00:32:45,502 --> 00:32:48,142
Speaker 1: And there was no therapy, no in that list that

611
00:32:48,222 --> 00:32:53,702
Speaker 1: you recited, mom, friends, you couldn't even talk to other women.

612
00:32:53,942 --> 00:32:56,262
Speaker 3: No, And if I did, the only women I would

613
00:32:56,302 --> 00:32:58,782
Speaker 3: have been speaking to were my mentors, who would have

614
00:32:58,822 --> 00:33:03,622
Speaker 3: been schooling me to more practical activity and husband obedience.

615
00:33:03,742 --> 00:33:07,542
Speaker 3: Like there's no compassion, empathy, friendship.

616
00:33:07,902 --> 00:33:09,422
Speaker 1: To hear, it's the Handmte's style.

617
00:33:09,902 --> 00:33:12,302
Speaker 3: Well, I call my story the prequel, the real life

618
00:33:12,342 --> 00:33:14,782
Speaker 3: prequel to the Handmaid's Tale. And it's important to note

619
00:33:14,782 --> 00:33:18,502
Speaker 3: that Atwood used real Christian fundamentalist groups as her model,

620
00:33:18,662 --> 00:33:21,142
Speaker 3: like she didn't make that up. Everything in her books

621
00:33:21,182 --> 00:33:21,902
Speaker 3: already happened.

622
00:33:22,342 --> 00:33:25,702
Speaker 1: What did the church teach you about discipline and obedience,

623
00:33:26,462 --> 00:33:30,422
Speaker 1: both of your children and of yourself high control?

624
00:33:30,702 --> 00:33:32,902
Speaker 3: It has to have a method. So one of the

625
00:33:32,902 --> 00:33:35,662
Speaker 3: things that's true in patriarchy is it's very fear based,

626
00:33:36,342 --> 00:33:40,062
Speaker 3: and they're terrified, Like, these fundamentalists are not evil, crazy

627
00:33:40,062 --> 00:33:42,502
Speaker 3: people that want something different than the rest of us.

628
00:33:42,902 --> 00:33:45,222
Speaker 3: They are just like you and me, and they want

629
00:33:45,222 --> 00:33:49,702
Speaker 3: comforting answers. They want reassuring binaries, they want organization in

630
00:33:49,742 --> 00:33:54,582
Speaker 3: times of chaos, and they want happy families and successful children.

631
00:33:54,742 --> 00:33:58,302
Speaker 3: And so they're convinced that if there aren't this high

632
00:33:58,382 --> 00:34:01,742
Speaker 3: control model, their children will go bad and that they

633
00:34:01,782 --> 00:34:04,702
Speaker 3: will lose them into a lake of fire. The stakes

634
00:34:04,742 --> 00:34:07,742
Speaker 3: couldn't be higher, because it's an eternity in hell. And

635
00:34:07,782 --> 00:34:10,582
Speaker 3: so all of that convinces parents to do whatever their

636
00:34:10,622 --> 00:34:13,022
Speaker 3: authority tells them they need to do. And there's no

637
00:34:13,142 --> 00:34:17,742
Speaker 3: shortage in patriarchy of resources encouraging parents to treat their

638
00:34:17,782 --> 00:34:20,542
Speaker 3: strong willed child, you know, with a rod of correction.

639
00:34:21,262 --> 00:34:23,982
Speaker 3: This environment that I was in and that is just

640
00:34:24,182 --> 00:34:27,662
Speaker 3: so alive and well today. One teacher really does lead

641
00:34:27,702 --> 00:34:29,982
Speaker 3: to another, and one book leads to another, and so

642
00:34:30,062 --> 00:34:32,142
Speaker 3: the ideas in one book will build off of that

643
00:34:32,262 --> 00:34:35,502
Speaker 3: and take you to the next level of extremity. And

644
00:34:35,582 --> 00:34:39,182
Speaker 3: while everyone may not achieve that far and extreme where

645
00:34:39,262 --> 00:34:42,302
Speaker 3: in my story it includes disciplining wives as if their

646
00:34:42,382 --> 00:34:46,342
Speaker 3: children and wife's banking, and maybe not everyone experiences that.

647
00:34:46,742 --> 00:34:49,662
Speaker 3: A lot of them experience a lot of harsh corporal

648
00:34:49,662 --> 00:34:53,982
Speaker 3: punishment of children, and on the very beginning of the spectrum,

649
00:34:54,102 --> 00:34:58,382
Speaker 3: babies because Michael Pearl's books talk about switching through blanket training,

650
00:34:58,382 --> 00:34:59,782
Speaker 3: which begins at four months old.

651
00:34:59,982 --> 00:35:02,742
Speaker 1: What's blanket training? Can you explain what blanket training is?

652
00:35:03,182 --> 00:35:06,982
Speaker 3: Yes, Blanket training is a behavior modification practice that begins

653
00:35:06,982 --> 00:35:09,662
Speaker 3: in infancy. So as soon as the baby starts to move,

654
00:35:10,462 --> 00:35:12,342
Speaker 3: put them on a blanket, and every time they try

655
00:35:12,342 --> 00:35:15,142
Speaker 3: to crawl off of the blanket through a normal child

656
00:35:15,222 --> 00:35:18,902
Speaker 3: development of exploration, you stop them and swat them and

657
00:35:18,942 --> 00:35:19,462
Speaker 3: tell them no.

658
00:35:19,782 --> 00:35:21,702
Speaker 1: When you say swat, does that mean hit.

659
00:35:22,102 --> 00:35:25,582
Speaker 3: Yes, you hit them with any kind of switch approved switch.

660
00:35:25,662 --> 00:35:29,262
Speaker 3: So they recommended a twig, a stick, a twig, a

661
00:35:29,262 --> 00:35:34,102
Speaker 3: piece of plumbing, PVC plumbing pipe, blue sticks, flexible craft

662
00:35:34,102 --> 00:35:37,502
Speaker 3: blue sticks. There's a number of implements they recommend. But

663
00:35:37,942 --> 00:35:40,822
Speaker 3: you start as a baby, and you teach that baby

664
00:35:41,022 --> 00:35:45,182
Speaker 3: to not move unless you've given it permission. My god,

665
00:35:45,742 --> 00:35:46,502
Speaker 3: it's barbaric.

666
00:35:46,942 --> 00:35:49,502
Speaker 1: It sounds illegal. Is it not illegal?

667
00:35:49,782 --> 00:35:53,902
Speaker 3: It should be? Oh, it should be. In America, spanking

668
00:35:53,982 --> 00:35:57,942
Speaker 3: children is legal, and children have died from it. But

669
00:35:58,062 --> 00:36:01,262
Speaker 3: they are still publishing and they are still practicing. And

670
00:36:01,342 --> 00:36:05,142
Speaker 3: this movement fights very hard in court to protect parent

671
00:36:05,262 --> 00:36:10,142
Speaker 3: rights over children's rights. So in the Christian patriarchy. Children

672
00:36:10,182 --> 00:36:12,742
Speaker 3: have no rights, neither do women, and so that's not

673
00:36:12,982 --> 00:36:14,742
Speaker 3: the mindset they're operating from.

674
00:36:15,102 --> 00:36:19,782
Speaker 1: You mentioned wife spanking. Did that actually happen to you?

675
00:36:20,382 --> 00:36:24,102
Speaker 3: It did. It's a practice called Christian domestic discipline. I

676
00:36:24,142 --> 00:36:27,182
Speaker 3: said in Chiny Happy people like a careful read of

677
00:36:27,942 --> 00:36:31,582
Speaker 3: these books on discipline, Michael Pearls to train up a child,

678
00:36:31,662 --> 00:36:35,022
Speaker 3: being an example of many. They don't have an age

679
00:36:35,022 --> 00:36:37,742
Speaker 3: limit on when you should stop spanking your child. So

680
00:36:37,902 --> 00:36:40,502
Speaker 3: if you listen to survivors of these movements, you will

681
00:36:40,502 --> 00:36:45,622
Speaker 3: hear older daughters spanked by their fathers into their young adulthood,

682
00:36:45,702 --> 00:36:48,382
Speaker 3: and you will hear wives who have been spanked. It

683
00:36:48,502 --> 00:36:50,942
Speaker 3: is tied up in the theology that tells a man

684
00:36:51,022 --> 00:36:53,862
Speaker 3: that he's responsible for everything that happens in his home,

685
00:36:54,302 --> 00:36:57,062
Speaker 3: and he's answerable to God for all of the behavior.

686
00:36:57,182 --> 00:36:59,782
Speaker 3: And so that's how it's sold that you need to

687
00:36:59,942 --> 00:37:03,622
Speaker 3: hold her accountable and train her because her choices are

688
00:37:03,622 --> 00:37:06,182
Speaker 3: going to reflect on you on judgment Day.

689
00:37:06,662 --> 00:37:09,102
Speaker 1: Women can't vote, can they? They're not allowed to vote.

690
00:37:09,422 --> 00:37:11,462
Speaker 3: It's not as clean cut as that I was not

691
00:37:11,582 --> 00:37:15,222
Speaker 3: allowed to vote, and they don't prefer women to vote,

692
00:37:15,222 --> 00:37:17,902
Speaker 3: but they will utilize the female vote if the popular

693
00:37:17,982 --> 00:37:21,942
Speaker 3: numbers are close, and in American elections lately they've been

694
00:37:22,062 --> 00:37:24,462
Speaker 3: very close, and so women are allowed to vote, but

695
00:37:24,502 --> 00:37:28,182
Speaker 3: they're expected to vote in compliance with their head of household.

696
00:37:27,862 --> 00:37:30,262
Speaker 1: So that husband tells them who to vote for. Yes,

697
00:37:30,742 --> 00:37:34,542
Speaker 1: you mentioned how Clara then losing her cracked you open.

698
00:37:36,062 --> 00:37:39,222
Speaker 1: Was there a definitive moment when you decided that enough

699
00:37:39,302 --> 00:37:39,782
Speaker 1: was enough?

700
00:37:40,422 --> 00:37:43,302
Speaker 3: It took me seven more years to reach that point.

701
00:37:43,542 --> 00:37:46,302
Speaker 3: I really came home from the hospital with this endeavor

702
00:37:46,382 --> 00:37:48,542
Speaker 3: to be the best Christian wife and mother I could be.

703
00:37:49,142 --> 00:37:52,582
Speaker 3: I felt emboldened in my faith. I felt empowered by christ.

704
00:37:52,702 --> 00:37:56,102
Speaker 3: I felt like I'd seen an example of strength and

705
00:37:56,182 --> 00:37:59,022
Speaker 3: power and that I could color inside the lines, so

706
00:37:59,102 --> 00:38:02,742
Speaker 3: to speak. And that really did work to a point.

707
00:38:02,982 --> 00:38:06,702
Speaker 3: I had two more children after Clara, and four more pregnancies.

708
00:38:06,982 --> 00:38:09,102
Speaker 3: It was life, you know. I did not realize that

709
00:38:09,382 --> 00:38:12,662
Speaker 3: there was not an entertain again of getting out. It's

710
00:38:12,702 --> 00:38:15,022
Speaker 3: till death do you part, even if it's at his hands,

711
00:38:15,582 --> 00:38:18,102
Speaker 3: And it did come down to that. I think one

712
00:38:18,142 --> 00:38:21,622
Speaker 3: of the traits that I have as a Christian girl

713
00:38:21,742 --> 00:38:25,422
Speaker 3: groomed to people please and fawn. I tend to stay

714
00:38:25,542 --> 00:38:28,582
Speaker 3: in environments longer than I should. I can see the

715
00:38:28,582 --> 00:38:31,222
Speaker 3: writing on the wall, and then I lack the courage

716
00:38:31,262 --> 00:38:33,942
Speaker 3: to save myself and take myself out of that. It's

717
00:38:33,982 --> 00:38:37,302
Speaker 3: a life discipline I'm working on, and this is the

718
00:38:37,302 --> 00:38:39,702
Speaker 3: biggest example of it. I had to get to a

719
00:38:39,742 --> 00:38:42,582
Speaker 3: place where he was about to kill us. I had

720
00:38:42,622 --> 00:38:45,822
Speaker 3: to realize I was grooming the next generation of abusers

721
00:38:46,262 --> 00:38:47,982
Speaker 3: in order to put my foot down and say enough

722
00:38:48,022 --> 00:38:50,142
Speaker 3: is enough. And then when you try to leave an

723
00:38:50,182 --> 00:38:52,862
Speaker 3: abusive person, it becomes much more dangerous and violent, and

724
00:38:52,862 --> 00:38:54,742
Speaker 3: that's what happened. Then violence escalated.

725
00:38:55,262 --> 00:38:57,302
Speaker 1: You wrote in the book that as you began to

726
00:38:57,342 --> 00:39:00,942
Speaker 1: find your power, your husband reacted very badly, and you

727
00:39:00,982 --> 00:39:03,782
Speaker 1: wrote balance was a delusion. As I became more independent

728
00:39:03,822 --> 00:39:07,462
Speaker 1: and healthy, high control, religion and domestic abuse tightened their grip,

729
00:39:07,862 --> 00:39:11,142
Speaker 1: my husband became more erratic and dangerous. In October of

730
00:39:11,222 --> 00:39:14,102
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, things came to a violent head

731
00:39:14,142 --> 00:39:16,622
Speaker 1: and I narrowly escaped with my children in the middle

732
00:39:16,662 --> 00:39:19,782
Speaker 1: of the night. What happened on that night, if it's

733
00:39:19,822 --> 00:39:22,102
Speaker 1: not too distressing to recount.

734
00:39:22,342 --> 00:39:25,062
Speaker 3: Sure, I'm gonna give you like the high level version.

735
00:39:25,902 --> 00:39:28,342
Speaker 3: I knew that I had to leave, and I had

736
00:39:28,382 --> 00:39:31,182
Speaker 3: been making arrangements to leave the next day with my

737
00:39:31,302 --> 00:39:34,382
Speaker 3: children while he was at work. We had gone trig

738
00:39:34,502 --> 00:39:36,702
Speaker 3: er treating, which was the first time our children had

739
00:39:36,742 --> 00:39:39,182
Speaker 3: participated in Halloween and was part of a kind of

740
00:39:39,302 --> 00:39:41,862
Speaker 3: new progressive community that we were in, and I felt

741
00:39:41,902 --> 00:39:44,542
Speaker 3: like excited that they could do that, you know, I

742
00:39:44,582 --> 00:39:47,262
Speaker 3: didn't want to take that from them prematurely. So we

743
00:39:47,302 --> 00:39:50,902
Speaker 3: had gone trigger treating, and after we got home, he

744
00:39:51,022 --> 00:39:53,462
Speaker 3: had some sort of psychotic break. I really don't have

745
00:39:53,742 --> 00:39:56,462
Speaker 3: good language for what happened with the inside of him,

746
00:39:56,702 --> 00:39:59,462
Speaker 3: other than that he snapped. He held me hostage for

747
00:39:59,502 --> 00:40:02,182
Speaker 3: four hours with the length of firewood, threatening to kill

748
00:40:02,222 --> 00:40:05,222
Speaker 3: me and kill the children, and then he suddenly left.

749
00:40:05,382 --> 00:40:09,302
Speaker 3: And I heard a voice in my head, in my mind,

750
00:40:09,342 --> 00:40:12,462
Speaker 3: in my heart that said, so I packed us up,

751
00:40:12,622 --> 00:40:15,382
Speaker 3: grabbed the laundry and the children and my laptop, and

752
00:40:15,502 --> 00:40:18,022
Speaker 3: I left. And he had gone to his office to

753
00:40:18,062 --> 00:40:20,542
Speaker 3: get his gun. So if I had stayed, we wouldn't

754
00:40:20,582 --> 00:40:23,702
Speaker 3: be having this conversation right now. We drove away.

755
00:40:24,302 --> 00:40:26,542
Speaker 1: Oh my god, how old were your children then?

756
00:40:26,862 --> 00:40:28,702
Speaker 3: Ten? And down ten to two and a half?

757
00:40:29,022 --> 00:40:33,462
Speaker 1: How old were you thirty three? And you mentioned grabbing

758
00:40:33,502 --> 00:40:35,982
Speaker 1: your laptop there was a group of an online group

759
00:40:35,982 --> 00:40:40,902
Speaker 1: of women who became your lifeline and really showed you

760
00:40:40,982 --> 00:40:44,662
Speaker 1: the door and the possibility that there was a way out.

761
00:40:44,862 --> 00:40:47,262
Speaker 1: How did you come upon them and how did they

762
00:40:47,262 --> 00:40:49,702
Speaker 1: play a role before that night happened.

763
00:40:49,942 --> 00:40:52,102
Speaker 3: Way back, if we go back into the timeline to

764
00:40:52,142 --> 00:40:55,022
Speaker 3: when Clara died. Just after that, my oldest was old

765
00:40:55,102 --> 00:40:58,342
Speaker 3: enough for homeschooling, and I had stumbled on the homeschooling

766
00:40:58,422 --> 00:41:01,262
Speaker 3: forums that had just formed. The Internet was brand new,

767
00:41:01,262 --> 00:41:03,542
Speaker 3: you know, we were all pioneers in this new technology.

768
00:41:04,222 --> 00:41:06,822
Speaker 3: I had a way to connect the outside world from home.

769
00:41:06,862 --> 00:41:10,102
Speaker 3: And it is a big, big through line of how

770
00:41:10,142 --> 00:41:13,782
Speaker 3: I survived this mentally, how I educated myself and the

771
00:41:13,822 --> 00:41:16,702
Speaker 3: connections that I made that were outside of the religious

772
00:41:16,702 --> 00:41:19,102
Speaker 3: groups that we were in. And they were other Christian

773
00:41:19,142 --> 00:41:23,102
Speaker 3: women going through very similar dynamics with different expressions. Like

774
00:41:23,222 --> 00:41:25,102
Speaker 3: none of them were like in as much high control

775
00:41:25,142 --> 00:41:27,862
Speaker 3: as I was, but they had toxicity in their marriages,

776
00:41:27,942 --> 00:41:30,102
Speaker 3: and they had family dynamics where we could relate to

777
00:41:30,142 --> 00:41:32,462
Speaker 3: one another and talk in a real way about what

778
00:41:32,502 --> 00:41:34,902
Speaker 3: the kinds of things that we were facing. And I

779
00:41:34,902 --> 00:41:37,342
Speaker 3: had also started a business by the time I left

780
00:41:37,422 --> 00:41:40,262
Speaker 3: a blogging business and I had a successful website at

781
00:41:40,262 --> 00:41:42,902
Speaker 3: that time, So I grabbed my laptop because I knew

782
00:41:42,902 --> 00:41:45,222
Speaker 3: my livelihood was in it in all of my contacts,

783
00:41:45,382 --> 00:41:48,342
Speaker 3: and those women helped me hide. They sheltered me and

784
00:41:48,382 --> 00:41:51,102
Speaker 3: took me in. And I do believe, I know that

785
00:41:51,142 --> 00:41:54,982
Speaker 3: we're seeing this again. There's underground railroads forming of women

786
00:41:55,022 --> 00:41:58,862
Speaker 3: connected to women, helping one another out of dangerous situations,

787
00:41:58,942 --> 00:42:02,382
Speaker 3: and in America, you know, helping women get abortions, helping

788
00:42:02,422 --> 00:42:05,462
Speaker 3: women find health care and resources and get out of

789
00:42:05,502 --> 00:42:08,782
Speaker 3: domestic violence. So they saved my life, they really did,

790
00:42:08,982 --> 00:42:12,582
Speaker 3: and they kept my children's world somewhat balanced during that time.

791
00:42:13,262 --> 00:42:15,982
Speaker 1: Was there a moment where you thought, Okay, I've done it,

792
00:42:16,022 --> 00:42:18,502
Speaker 1: I've left and I can't return to that life.

793
00:42:18,982 --> 00:42:21,942
Speaker 3: It was that night. Yeah, that was done. It was

794
00:42:21,982 --> 00:42:22,942
Speaker 3: a complete severance.

795
00:42:23,382 --> 00:42:25,982
Speaker 1: And what happened after that? What was the next twelve months?

796
00:42:26,102 --> 00:42:27,262
Speaker 1: Like for you and your kids?

797
00:42:28,022 --> 00:42:31,782
Speaker 3: We had to go into hiding. We started divorce proceedings,

798
00:42:31,942 --> 00:42:35,102
Speaker 3: which had to be separated from the custody proceedings because

799
00:42:35,142 --> 00:42:39,502
Speaker 3: those required forensic investigations. The violence continued, and it was

800
00:42:40,142 --> 00:42:43,302
Speaker 3: about a ten year process of all of that. You

801
00:42:43,382 --> 00:42:46,942
Speaker 3: don't get divorced cleanly from someone like that and easily.

802
00:42:47,622 --> 00:42:49,862
Speaker 3: But I was also going through trauma therapy through those

803
00:42:49,942 --> 00:42:52,062
Speaker 3: years and putting my life back together. I mean, I

804
00:42:52,102 --> 00:42:57,022
Speaker 3: really did set to healing, raising my kids, securing my employment,

805
00:42:57,342 --> 00:42:59,662
Speaker 3: getting on my feet, and I had it in this

806
00:42:59,782 --> 00:43:02,622
Speaker 3: context that this bad marriage happened to us. It wasn't

807
00:43:02,782 --> 00:43:05,742
Speaker 3: till years later in therapy when I had to start

808
00:43:06,182 --> 00:43:09,902
Speaker 3: reversing my decision making process and exploring what made me

809
00:43:10,542 --> 00:43:13,422
Speaker 3: those choices in the first place, what made me go

810
00:43:13,542 --> 00:43:15,582
Speaker 3: along and comply, And that's what led me to the

811
00:43:15,582 --> 00:43:19,182
Speaker 3: religious trauma and understanding the grooming and conditioning I'd been

812
00:43:19,222 --> 00:43:20,742
Speaker 3: part of as a younger woman.

813
00:43:21,462 --> 00:43:25,742
Speaker 1: How do you unbrainwash yourself, because essentially you've been brainwashed

814
00:43:25,782 --> 00:43:28,982
Speaker 1: since the age of ten about even how you think.

815
00:43:29,022 --> 00:43:30,702
Speaker 1: One of the things that struck me so much in

816
00:43:30,742 --> 00:43:33,822
Speaker 1: your book, you told me, You told me, you wrote

817
00:43:33,862 --> 00:43:36,702
Speaker 1: that you couldn't even write a journal because you didn't

818
00:43:36,702 --> 00:43:39,422
Speaker 1: even have any privacy of thought. You were worried that

819
00:43:39,502 --> 00:43:43,062
Speaker 1: God would see it or that your husband might find it,

820
00:43:43,102 --> 00:43:45,782
Speaker 1: because you had no right to say no, I don't

821
00:43:45,782 --> 00:43:49,542
Speaker 1: want you to read this. How do you undo that.

822
00:43:50,542 --> 00:43:55,102
Speaker 3: It's a mixture of big BINGI growth spurts and then

823
00:43:55,262 --> 00:44:00,062
Speaker 3: a lot of careful day to day retraining rediscovery. I

824
00:44:00,142 --> 00:44:05,302
Speaker 3: prefer like to emphasize curiosity and question asking and meditation.

825
00:44:05,542 --> 00:44:08,182
Speaker 3: I have come up with my own steps of recovery

826
00:44:08,262 --> 00:44:10,302
Speaker 3: and my own process of healing, and I've had break

827
00:44:10,422 --> 00:44:13,662
Speaker 3: throughs along the way that I'm writing about now. But

828
00:44:14,222 --> 00:44:17,102
Speaker 3: there were also giant moments, like when Clara died. That

829
00:44:17,222 --> 00:44:19,302
Speaker 3: was a giant moment where a lot of the spell

830
00:44:19,422 --> 00:44:21,782
Speaker 3: was broken in my mind and I was curious and

831
00:44:22,382 --> 00:44:25,622
Speaker 3: wanted to learn. And then there were harder times where

832
00:44:26,062 --> 00:44:30,262
Speaker 3: I have deeply embedded patterns of fawning and people pleasing

833
00:44:30,342 --> 00:44:33,902
Speaker 3: and cooperation, and I have to really work on situation

834
00:44:34,022 --> 00:44:37,142
Speaker 3: by situation and carefully with a therapist. So it's a

835
00:44:37,142 --> 00:44:40,622
Speaker 3: little mixture of both. But I did not accept that

836
00:44:40,742 --> 00:44:43,262
Speaker 3: I wouldn't heal like I want that from my life.

837
00:44:46,142 --> 00:44:48,782
Speaker 1: Well, this is not the end to his story, not

838
00:44:48,782 --> 00:44:50,782
Speaker 1: by a long shot, because it takes a lot more

839
00:44:50,822 --> 00:44:53,622
Speaker 1: than leaving a marriage to leave a cult. How do

840
00:44:53,662 --> 00:44:57,822
Speaker 1: you unbrainwash yourself? How do you trust again, find love again,

841
00:44:58,462 --> 00:45:00,742
Speaker 1: and learn how to be a grown woman in a

842
00:45:00,782 --> 00:45:04,502
Speaker 1: world that you'd been kept apart from for so long

843
00:45:05,342 --> 00:45:08,182
Speaker 1: And what is ta you think about tradwives like Hannah

844
00:45:08,222 --> 00:45:11,502
Speaker 1: Nielman and Ballerina farm We're trying to sell this life

845
00:45:11,502 --> 00:45:14,942
Speaker 1: to a whole new generation of women. There's so much

846
00:45:14,942 --> 00:45:17,342
Speaker 1: more of this incredible conversation, more than we could share

847
00:45:17,342 --> 00:45:19,742
Speaker 1: in one episode here. So if you're not already a

848
00:45:19,782 --> 00:45:23,342
Speaker 1: Muma Mea subscriber, let this be the episode that makes

849
00:45:23,342 --> 00:45:25,702
Speaker 1: you one. I'll put a link in the show notes

850
00:45:25,782 --> 00:45:26,942
Speaker 1: and I'll see you in part two.

851
00:45:28,102 --> 00:45:30,342
Speaker 2: If you're looking for something else to listen to, like

852
00:45:30,422 --> 00:45:33,102
Speaker 2: and follow all of our Muma Mea podcasts, which are

853
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Speaker 2: currently bringing you Hot Pod Summer one hundred hours of

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